Speaker 1: Elk calling world champions. Yeah, they can call, but can
Speaker 1: they hunt? Today's guest is R M. E F World
Speaker 1: Champion in runner up, But that isn't why I have
Speaker 1: him on the show today. He's a great, great elk hunter.
Speaker 1: He's very accomplished and skilled. Tony Gilbertson out of Vernonia, Oregon.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Tony. Hey, thanks Jason, I appreciate
Speaker 1: this opportunity. Yeah, how's everything going down there in Oregon?
Speaker 1: So far? It's not too hot. I know you're on
Speaker 1: the coast um, but how's everything down there? I was
Speaker 1: stilling good, Uh, it's it's been hot that in Vernounia.
Speaker 1: It's I mean we're in the foothills of the coast range,
Speaker 1: so it stays a little bit cooler and it cools
Speaker 1: down more at night. So we just opened up the
Speaker 1: one does at night and we're good to go. No,
Speaker 1: it's always good. I'm I'm ready for fall. Yeah, ye
Speaker 1: aren't we? All? It's closing in quick. And do you
Speaker 1: have any big hunts lined up for this fall? So,
Speaker 1: with Oregon changing a lot of the units that we
Speaker 1: hunted over nichean oregan to control longly. Um, you know
Speaker 1: I can hunt Roosevelt's I can be in the woods
Speaker 1: from my house and about you know, ten or fifteen minutes,
Speaker 1: and I can hunt every day after work if I
Speaker 1: want to, and on the weekends, and then usually take
Speaker 1: a week off. So I'm just gonna have the general
Speaker 1: season O t C tag for Saddle Mountain Unit in
Speaker 1: Scapoose Unit. And then I was fortunate enough to get
Speaker 1: a a tag in Idaho, so I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 1: Nice nice you canna take a week off and go
Speaker 1: over to Idaho, then yeah, I'll hunt. I'll hunt the
Speaker 1: whole the whole season here in Oregon, and then probably
Speaker 1: the last five or six days I'll take off and
Speaker 1: head over to Idaho. Nice, nice grats on that tag.
Speaker 1: And Idaho seems to be getting tougher and tougher every
Speaker 1: year where um, you know, it used to be what
Speaker 1: just four or five years ago you could go to
Speaker 1: the gas station during archery season and there were all
Speaker 1: kinds of B tags left, and um, now if you
Speaker 1: don't get a low enough number or uh you know,
Speaker 1: lucky enough on December one, you're not getting any sort
Speaker 1: of tag there. So um, yeah, Idaho. I was disappointed.
Speaker 1: My son and I both got online there and and
Speaker 1: I was like eight hundred and sixty two and he
Speaker 1: was six six thousand and some on. So I was
Speaker 1: fortunate enough to get the tag and he wasn't. And honestly,
Speaker 1: I would have rather seen him get the tag and myself,
Speaker 1: but I just didn't work out that way. So maybe
Speaker 1: next year. Yeah, we're gonna jump into some listener questions
Speaker 1: and if you have a question, um you want us
Speaker 1: to answer or one of our guests answer, send it
Speaker 1: to us at ct D at Phelps game Calls dot
Speaker 1: Com will do our best to get get your questions answered. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, send us a message whatever it needs to be.
Speaker 1: But I kind of cherry picked this one for you, Tony.
Speaker 1: How good of a color do you need to be
Speaker 1: to colon elk in your opinion? Yeah, in my opinion, Uh,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of guys stress out about that.
Speaker 1: I've I've coached a number of people that honestly, they're
Speaker 1: they're a bit shy or um, you know, scared to
Speaker 1: show show me what they can do. And I try
Speaker 1: to encourage them because, in my opinion, you don't have
Speaker 1: to be a world professional caller to call the ELK.
Speaker 1: I've heard I've heard some elk in the woods that
Speaker 1: that you would swear, sounded like a human uh, or
Speaker 1: they sounded horrible, and it turns out that their bulls. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know. I've got a good friend of mine that
Speaker 1: that uh, you know, isn't the isn't the most accomplished
Speaker 1: caller in the world, but you know, he calls in
Speaker 1: bulls all the time. So I don't think it's I
Speaker 1: don't think it's as necessary to be as good a
Speaker 1: color as it is to be maybe more versatile in
Speaker 1: terms of the different sounds you can make. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: right there with you. You know, you don't have to
Speaker 1: be as good as you dirt Jermaine, you know myself.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, we may be doing a
Speaker 1: disservice to them, you know, because we make all this
Speaker 1: hunting content and we share educational videos and they get
Speaker 1: to hear, you know, some of the sounds that you
Speaker 1: guys can make and the quality of sounds that you
Speaker 1: guys can make, and I think, you know, as you said,
Speaker 1: they get a little timid, they get a little bit
Speaker 1: nervous that they can't make sounds like that or is
Speaker 1: accurative sounds like that, And then they become very timid
Speaker 1: in the elk woods. And and to kind of piggyback
Speaker 1: on your answer, I think it's much more important to
Speaker 1: get the rest of the strategy right as far as
Speaker 1: you know, locating out, getting the wind right, getting close,
Speaker 1: and then at the end you ultimately need to have
Speaker 1: the confidence to make a call um versus you know,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna get close and I'm gonna kind of
Speaker 1: hang out and just see what happens. You know, that's
Speaker 1: that's never a good approach. UM. You know, it may work, UM,
Speaker 1: spot and stock may work. You know, we know a
Speaker 1: lot of successful guys that end gals that don't necessarily
Speaker 1: pick up a all. They do it a different way.
Speaker 1: But if you're going out there with the intent to,
Speaker 1: you know, run a call and call a bowl into
Speaker 1: your lap, Um, I think you need to have some confidence.
Speaker 1: And that's why you know, some of the things, like
Speaker 1: you know, some of the calls that we've been designing lately,
Speaker 1: such as the easy sucker and the easy bugler, it's
Speaker 1: not because me or you or Dirk or you know,
Speaker 1: experienced colors that have dedicated you know, most of their
Speaker 1: lives and you know, or a large you know, a
Speaker 1: large time frame within their life and not the majority
Speaker 1: of their life. But you know, we've dedicated a lot
Speaker 1: of time to becoming very proficient, and I honestly believe that,
Speaker 1: you know, making these calls easier for people to use
Speaker 1: is going to give them that confidence. And we got
Speaker 1: a lot of feedback last year that's just the easy
Speaker 1: Bugler like gave them the confidence to actually go into
Speaker 1: the same areas in the same situations that they've been
Speaker 1: in the past, and and they're actually blow on the
Speaker 1: call and to get responses and to get action and
Speaker 1: to play the game like, in my opinion, was meant
Speaker 1: to be played. So that's some of the reasons, you know,
Speaker 1: why we're running that. And uh, I honestly truly leave
Speaker 1: that somebody that can at least sound somewhat decent is
Speaker 1: better to have those people running around in the woods.
Speaker 1: That people that are blowing on a call that sound
Speaker 1: not good at all or you know, don't even resemble
Speaker 1: an Elkin. So in my opinion, it's it's not doing
Speaker 1: you know, much more harm than it is you know
Speaker 1: elks on like Elkin, so um by allowing them to
Speaker 1: to sound better, it's actually helping all of us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree with that, Jason. I was talking to a guy.
Speaker 1: I was at a birthday party over the weekend and
Speaker 1: and dufer and I was talking to a guy there
Speaker 1: that he struggles with with having a diaphragm in his
Speaker 1: mouth just because his gag reflex. And I was talking
Speaker 1: to him about the easy vehicle, and I said, you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's options out there for you. Now. You don't
Speaker 1: have to know how to use a diaphragm. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: these cow calls that that um that phelps and others
Speaker 1: are developing right now are uh much easier than what
Speaker 1: they you know, to use and what they used to be.
Speaker 1: And if if you can't use a diaphragm, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: the easy bugler is a fantastic option and it sounds awesome.
Speaker 1: So uh he was he was going to look into
Speaker 1: that because of that that very reason, and and he
Speaker 1: didn't have confidence, I don't think in himself, just in
Speaker 1: talking to him. But it's just a matter of picking
Speaker 1: up the calls and and just you know, practicing. And
Speaker 1: you don't, like I said, you don't have to be
Speaker 1: a world champion elk caller, but you do need to
Speaker 1: dedicate some time to at least sound somewhat realistic and
Speaker 1: get to the point where you can you know, you
Speaker 1: don't you don't sound the same every time that you
Speaker 1: can throw some versatility in there and make the bulls
Speaker 1: or you know, make the bulls sound like or hear
Speaker 1: you in a way that that suggests you're another ELK. Yep.
Speaker 1: And you know, there have been some situations where I
Speaker 1: don't ever want to be called in by somebody else
Speaker 1: or somebody else to feel like, you know, if they
Speaker 1: recognize us or see us. So um, there's been some
Speaker 1: situations in the last few years where I'm about ready
Speaker 1: to balance out of our calling set up. You know,
Speaker 1: we've got set up, we're doing everything we think you're like,
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're We're trying to listen and figure
Speaker 1: out like is that a real ILK? Is that a person? Um?
Speaker 1: And And multiple times over the last five years, I
Speaker 1: would say, you know, four or five different approaches that
Speaker 1: I can remember fairly fairly well, we ended up calling
Speaker 1: an ELK that I would have at some point during
Speaker 1: that call in guess that they were a person. You know,
Speaker 1: And so I don't think, you know, quality of calls,
Speaker 1: it's more of you know, the ability, the confidence to
Speaker 1: use them, um, and then making the sounds at the
Speaker 1: right time UM are more important. So I think we're
Speaker 1: we're both on the same page. You know, being a
Speaker 1: great color isn't a requirement. UM, it does help us
Speaker 1: a little bit. Uh, one of the strategies we like
Speaker 1: to use as mimicry. Uh. And and being a good
Speaker 1: caller gives us the ability to, like, I think I
Speaker 1: know how to make that sound, you know, because because
Speaker 1: real ilk make all kinds of different sounds, and so
Speaker 1: if I'm trying to copycat that bowl, it is nice
Speaker 1: to be able to. Oh, I I know how to
Speaker 1: you know, manipulate the call and get that sound. But
Speaker 1: aside from that, you know, you you learn a few
Speaker 1: you know, calmus, you know estrus wines, challenge beagles, location bugles, um,
Speaker 1: and get them down. That that's all you're gonna need
Speaker 1: to head into the oak woods and find success. In
Speaker 1: my opinion, yeah, I couldn't agree more. Jason, I think
Speaker 1: you're spot on the second question from the listeners, Um,
Speaker 1: what is your approach when trying to call in a
Speaker 1: herd bowl? It's fine, and I'm gonna twist us a
Speaker 1: little bit or put some direction to that as far
Speaker 1: as what you're calling strategy, like if you could, you know,
Speaker 1: bottle up your strategy, put it in a little cookie
Speaker 1: cutter approach. Um, give us, give us that answer. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I think when you you mentioned mimicry earlier, Jason, Um,
Speaker 1: you know you know my approach when it comes to
Speaker 1: herd balls. I mean, number one, you've got the problem
Speaker 1: with with calling sideline bowls or spikes or something like that. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, to where those balls come in. And then
Speaker 1: you you know, you've got to kind of, at least
Speaker 1: in my opinion, kind of tone it down a bit
Speaker 1: or ut up until they kind of move off, so
Speaker 1: you don't so you don't spook them and they bump
Speaker 1: the herd and you know, off they go. But you know,
Speaker 1: I think for me, I think the most important thing
Speaker 1: is to get in close and just get aggressive with them.
Speaker 1: You know, if that herd bull as a herd bull
Speaker 1: for a reason, and if you if you're really shy
Speaker 1: and tivid with that bull and you keep a distance
Speaker 1: from him, he's he's not going to pay you any
Speaker 1: attention at all. So until you get up close enough
Speaker 1: to where that bull thinks you're a threat, and you
Speaker 1: can actually you know, make some sounds that that gives
Speaker 1: him the impression that that you know, you're moving in
Speaker 1: on his herd and you're you know, there's a chance
Speaker 1: you're gonna take his cous from him. You're not gonna
Speaker 1: have much success. So in my opinion, you know, locating
Speaker 1: that herd, getting in close, trying to mimic what he's
Speaker 1: what he's saying. Uh, you know, sometimes they'll get in
Speaker 1: there close and and and do some do some raking,
Speaker 1: and a lot of times I'll be enough to just
Speaker 1: you know, push him over the edge and have him
Speaker 1: come in. But getting in there thrown out a challenge vehicle,
Speaker 1: maybe a bulls calling cows vehicle, something that that gives
Speaker 1: him the impression that that you're a threat is is
Speaker 1: probably your best option. Yeah, I'm I'm on the same
Speaker 1: page with you. There's well Tony Um. Yeah. I always
Speaker 1: use the analogy I think I've already used on the podcast,
Speaker 1: but it's always worth kind of you know, painting the
Speaker 1: picture again. You know, I always try to try to
Speaker 1: picture like if you were sitting at the back of
Speaker 1: a restaurant with your wife having you know, a nice
Speaker 1: dinner whatever it may be, and somebody walks in the
Speaker 1: front door and yells at you like, hey, mr, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna whoop your butt. I'm coming to take your wife,
Speaker 1: you know, because that's basically what we're doing out in
Speaker 1: the Elk woods. You would be you'd have the ability
Speaker 1: to take your wife and maybe go out the back door,
Speaker 1: you know, defend, you know, whatever you need to do,
Speaker 1: you know, try to avoid the situation. Right. But if
Speaker 1: that same person or elk doesn't say anything to you
Speaker 1: and tell you, you know, gets right to the edge
Speaker 1: of your table, they've now taken away that like fight
Speaker 1: or flight opportunity to even You've now got like fight
Speaker 1: to deal with, right, that's all all you have left.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, very aggressive, get very very close. Um.
Speaker 1: One thing I've always noticed, uh, you know, the majority
Speaker 1: of her both some of them come in all sorts
Speaker 1: of piste off. After you get close, get tight, you know,
Speaker 1: do some challenge beagles, um whatever it may be. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, there are some that are just like, well
Speaker 1: that was easy. It shouldn't have been that easy. But
Speaker 1: there are ones that are you know, they won't beagle,
Speaker 1: you know, right after your vehgle they'll maybe veagle ten
Speaker 1: seconds later, and it just kind of frustrates me because
Speaker 1: it's like, well, hey, what you know, answer me, I
Speaker 1: just made a bveagle. You obviously could hear me, but
Speaker 1: you're kind of just ignoring me. You're you're doing your
Speaker 1: own thing. And on those sorts of bowls, I always
Speaker 1: believe that I can go in and turn the temperature
Speaker 1: up on that bowl. He's kind of lazy, He's kind
Speaker 1: of lacks a daisical and his veagling. He doesn't really
Speaker 1: seem to care that I'm in the area, and I
Speaker 1: typically my mind kind of arts to put that bowl
Speaker 1: in the category of probably an older bull. You know,
Speaker 1: he's not responding to everything. He's not he doesn't have
Speaker 1: a care in the world. He doesn't care if I
Speaker 1: walk into his herd because he's gonna whip my butt
Speaker 1: when I get there, you know. So he's a little
Speaker 1: a little more relaxed in his responses. And those are
Speaker 1: those elk that you know, those bulls. I want to
Speaker 1: get in close and I want to slowly turn the
Speaker 1: temperature up, like just annoy him. I want to pester him,
Speaker 1: and I wanna That's kind of what's going through my head.
Speaker 1: That if we play this game of pestering him enough
Speaker 1: that we can eventually turn the temperature up and you know,
Speaker 1: hopefully call him away from his herd. Um. It's just
Speaker 1: very very tough. We're reversing nature here. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: a bull doesn't want to leave his cows his hair,
Speaker 1: and whether it's two or three cows, whether it's ten
Speaker 1: or fifteen, he's got his for sure thing. And we're
Speaker 1: trying to reverse nature by you know, he beagles for
Speaker 1: you know, and his beagles are allowed for a reason
Speaker 1: like that's to announce to the cows like hey, I'm
Speaker 1: over here, come join us, versus us trying to reverse
Speaker 1: that and say hey, we're one lonely cow over or
Speaker 1: leave your other fifteen cows, or we're one bowl over here,
Speaker 1: leave your fifteen cows to come check us out. Like
Speaker 1: that's that doesn't make a lot of sense. Um, So yeah,
Speaker 1: get close, you get aggressive, um, and and try to
Speaker 1: turn the heat up on that bowl. Is kind of
Speaker 1: what's going through my head is when I know it's
Speaker 1: a hurd bull. Yeah, I agree that those bulls that
Speaker 1: have a lot of confidence, like like you said that
Speaker 1: that just like just like in a you know, human nature.
Speaker 1: You get some guy that that that's confident in his abilities,
Speaker 1: and and you know he's going to kick your butt.
Speaker 1: Like like you said, you know, what's what's the reason?
Speaker 1: What why why should he go and and fight you?
Speaker 1: Why not make you come to him and actually have
Speaker 1: him get a visual of you or at least that's
Speaker 1: I mean, that's going through his mind. Right, He's gonna
Speaker 1: stay here with his cows until he sees sees you,
Speaker 1: and and it can acknowledge that you're a threat. But
Speaker 1: you know, I've I've taken one thing that has worked
Speaker 1: for me in the past two is you know, you
Speaker 1: get those bulls that that just you know, they're kind
Speaker 1: antagonistic and they just they you know, they'll they'll bi
Speaker 1: vehicle back at you, but but they kind of stay
Speaker 1: off in the distance, just around their cows. And I've
Speaker 1: taken off and and just ran at them and and
Speaker 1: just you know, screaming my head off at him, thinking
Speaker 1: that okay, here he comes, you know, and and sometimes
Speaker 1: just the sound of you running through the brush at
Speaker 1: that bowl. Now, you know, on the coast here, it's
Speaker 1: it's probably more obvious that you're you know, you're running
Speaker 1: through all that stuff trying to get to them, but
Speaker 1: and and they can't see you coming, so maybe it's
Speaker 1: a little easier that way than it is in some
Speaker 1: of the open country. But you know, that's a that's
Speaker 1: a technique that I've used before too, that that's that's
Speaker 1: been effective. Yeah. Yeah, when you close that distance faster
Speaker 1: than they expect, that kind of puts them on tilt.
Speaker 1: And ye can can work work really well there. So
Speaker 1: if any of you once again have any of your
Speaker 1: own questions you want us to try to answer, to
Speaker 1: tackle or give our own spin, make sure to email
Speaker 1: us at ct D at helps game Calls dot com.
Speaker 1: Will do our best to give you an answer. Now
Speaker 1: we're going to kind of jump into the discussion here
Speaker 1: for today. And I promised I didn't pick you Tony
Speaker 1: to go over this, but you know these topics. But
Speaker 1: what we're gonna talk about today is a lot of
Speaker 1: the mistakes that we've made over time. We've mentioned it before.
Speaker 1: We kind of came from, you know, the times where
Speaker 1: there wasn't you know, multiple elk hunting courses or elk
Speaker 1: hunting information on the internet. Um, there weren't even forums
Speaker 1: and stuff like I got on the internet to you know,
Speaker 1: check my emails back when when I started to learn
Speaker 1: to elk hunting. UM. You know, so we we learned
Speaker 1: a lot on our own and and a lot of
Speaker 1: that came from trial and air. So today I'm just
Speaker 1: going to kind of go through, you know, some of
Speaker 1: the major mistakes we made early on, or some of
Speaker 1: the same mistakes that we made over and over. And
Speaker 1: we were talking a little bit before the podcast, UM,
Speaker 1: some of the mistakes that we're still making that UM,
Speaker 1: you know, for one reason or another, we we think
Speaker 1: one way or something happened one way in the past,
Speaker 1: and UM, we make a mistake and it doesn't turn
Speaker 1: out in our favors. So we're gonna kind of go
Speaker 1: through some of that, UM, walk through mistakes we've made
Speaker 1: and kind of see, you know, how you've learned from that.
Speaker 1: And and the other thing I want to I want
Speaker 1: to preface this whole conversation a little bit tony with
Speaker 1: it is l cunning. We're doing our best to try
Speaker 1: to put you know, our experience together, but I am
Speaker 1: humbled every year that what has happened in the past,
Speaker 1: what's happened, you know, multiple times in the past, then
Speaker 1: very you know, the next twenty setups are callin's, it
Speaker 1: may fail. And so even I don't want to call
Speaker 1: these low odds, you know, or everything we do has
Speaker 1: low odds, but there's always a risk that these are
Speaker 1: wild animals. It's not always gonna work like it did
Speaker 1: last time or the time before, shoot, even ten times ago. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, you got to try to read the situation,
Speaker 1: make your best judgment call, and go with it. Um.
Speaker 1: And so we're gonna we're gonna give some information here,
Speaker 1: but but I wanna, you know, preface it with it's
Speaker 1: not gonna work, you know, fellproof every time. We're always
Speaker 1: gonna screw up. Yeah, elk or unpredictable. If they were predictable,
Speaker 1: this would be easy. Yeah. If they couldn't smell, if
Speaker 1: they were blind, and if they did the same thing
Speaker 1: every day, we'd be all right, yeah, all right, I'd
Speaker 1: be a lot more successful. Yeah. So yeah, we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about, um, some of the knowledge we've gained through
Speaker 1: the mistakes we've made over the years. And uh, I
Speaker 1: would like, as I mentioned, some of the repeat mistakes
Speaker 1: I personally have made over the years. So we're gonna
Speaker 1: start off with scouting. UM. I used to do a
Speaker 1: whole lot more scouting than I do now. But some
Speaker 1: of the mistakes, you know, we we made scouting. Go
Speaker 1: ahead and give some of your you know, scouting mistakes,
Speaker 1: and they'll kind of fold that up with some of
Speaker 1: the stuff that you know, I did really really wrong
Speaker 1: and some of the stuff I do now that I
Speaker 1: think is you know, makes a lot more sense now
Speaker 1: they think about it. Yeah, I think, well, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a mistake or's just
Speaker 1: a matter of not having enough time. But you know,
Speaker 1: you mentioned not not doing as much or you to
Speaker 1: do a lot more scouting than what used to now,
Speaker 1: I think I think just being out in the woods
Speaker 1: more frequently on a regular basis. Um, you know that
Speaker 1: that can help. But you know I I do. I
Speaker 1: do use online maps, and I will I'll get online
Speaker 1: and I'll look at areas where I think will hold elk.
Speaker 1: You know, it's the cover, the feed, the water, you know,
Speaker 1: betting areas likely likely betting areas, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll get out there before the season, and you know
Speaker 1: that that's that's one of the problems as you go
Speaker 1: out and you scout before the season. Well, these bulls
Speaker 1: don't have cows yet, So who's to say they're going
Speaker 1: to be in that area when you get there, and
Speaker 1: then you know, there's all this sign when you get
Speaker 1: out there and you do your preseason scouting, and I
Speaker 1: have fallen trapped to just because I know that the
Speaker 1: elk are always there. I get there and they've moved on,
Speaker 1: and I spend you know, kind of what we were
Speaker 1: talking about earlier. You spend too much time in an
Speaker 1: area just because the elk were there, you know, a
Speaker 1: month before the season, or you know, I've been in
Speaker 1: units before that have been very productive, and you know,
Speaker 1: maybe you think you don't have to do as much scouting,
Speaker 1: and you get there and you don't see sign, but
Speaker 1: you keep hunting it because it's what you're familiar with,
Speaker 1: instead of you know, branching out moving elsewhere. Um, you
Speaker 1: know that that's that's a huge mistake I've made in
Speaker 1: the past. Yeah, so I'm the same way. Scouting was
Speaker 1: almost a detriment to to my elk hunting when I
Speaker 1: was younger, and all I'll kind of explained, we didn't
Speaker 1: hunt the mountains. I grew up hunting, you know, coastal Washington,
Speaker 1: clear Cut country, you know, Warehouser cuts every forty five years,
Speaker 1: and so we have a it's a lot different than
Speaker 1: the majority of people get to hunt. But what we
Speaker 1: would do in two thousand and eight nine, I said,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna go up in the mountains. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go up in the Cascades. I'm gonna go do
Speaker 1: some mountain hunting off my back. And so we had
Speaker 1: taken three or four different scouting trips into a wilderness area.
Speaker 1: We're seeing elk every time, lots of elk um And
Speaker 1: so what we did in between these scouting trips, in
Speaker 1: between seasons, I would go home and like plan my
Speaker 1: entire hunt from the computer based on what we were
Speaker 1: seeing out there, and when I got my feet on
Speaker 1: the ground, for some reason in my mind, that hunt
Speaker 1: was going to work out at some point. Versus if
Speaker 1: I hadn't have went and scouted and just went back
Speaker 1: into that area, I would be more fluid and I
Speaker 1: would have to go find where those elk where I
Speaker 1: wouldn't you know, I wouldn't go to where I thought
Speaker 1: the elk were gonna be. And so that was one
Speaker 1: of the big um, you know, issues with scouting and
Speaker 1: how it would kind of backfire on me. Is I
Speaker 1: had a plan in my head on where I was
Speaker 1: going to kill the elk and how our morning hunts
Speaker 1: would go and how our night hunts would go, and
Speaker 1: it just didn't pencil out that way. Um. The other
Speaker 1: bad habit I had, uh you know, scouting, which is
Speaker 1: the same thing. On these hunts. We would go see
Speaker 1: herds of a hundred elk, you know, on a high
Speaker 1: alpine basin. You know, the bulls would be off in
Speaker 1: a different area. We'd have bull uh you know, all
Speaker 1: over our camera. As I would go look for elk
Speaker 1: on my scouting trips, and as you just mentioned, um
Speaker 1: they that doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna be there, uh
Speaker 1: in in the fall when seasons open up. That doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that the bulls are gonna leave and go find cows.
Speaker 1: And so one thing I would do is go look
Speaker 1: for elk, which now I tell people, don't go look
Speaker 1: for go look for elk signs and and my favorite,
Speaker 1: UM signed to go find out there is one to
Speaker 1: two year old rubs, you know, whether they're their needles
Speaker 1: are all dropped or uh you know, if they've got
Speaker 1: red needles on them. I love to see that sign
Speaker 1: and I love to see multiple years of those rubs
Speaker 1: because what that lets me this, you know, figure out
Speaker 1: without even seeing an elk, is that they're running here
Speaker 1: year after year, you know, and and it's multiple years
Speaker 1: stacked on. So there's you know, there are some strange
Speaker 1: areas I've got into where it's like, you know, the
Speaker 1: elk have swung in there for a year, They've swung
Speaker 1: in there for a week, and you know, but but
Speaker 1: multiple years worth of rubs. It's like, all right, this
Speaker 1: is obviously an area they like to they like to go,
Speaker 1: they like to beat during the rut um. And then
Speaker 1: within those areas, I'm starting to look, you know, within
Speaker 1: where the beat in trails around those rubs, where the
Speaker 1: wallows and benches around those reubs, where they gonna be
Speaker 1: able to bed in close proximity to those ReBs, because
Speaker 1: a lot of times the rubs are in fairly close
Speaker 1: proximity to their bedding areas. Um, it's kind of a
Speaker 1: little different than how I used to scout, but I
Speaker 1: want to find rubs first and then find some of
Speaker 1: these other features food cover the trails, the way they're
Speaker 1: getting in and out of there, you know, wallows where
Speaker 1: they're gonna get their water and kind of planning that
Speaker 1: hunt around there and then not scouting. I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: show up, uh you know, during season and and go
Speaker 1: locate those elk and figure them out, versus you know,
Speaker 1: putting all my eggs in the basket from from scouting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've I've done the same thing, Jason. I. You know,
Speaker 1: we we've founded areas around around home here for years,
Speaker 1: and we know that the elk are always there, but
Speaker 1: so do a lot of other people. And you know
Speaker 1: when they get even before the season, you get enough
Speaker 1: guys out there scouting around, getting more humans sent in there,
Speaker 1: even some guys going out the preseason trying to you know,
Speaker 1: calcular a bugle and uh, I mean how many times
Speaker 1: if if you used to if you used to hunt
Speaker 1: on the coast over a clear cut, how many times
Speaker 1: you've seen guys pull up in a in a pickup
Speaker 1: truck and bugle off a landing, you know, over a
Speaker 1: clearer cut down into September or something. You start to
Speaker 1: educate those bulls and and they get you know, they're
Speaker 1: not dumb animals. So I you know, I've made a
Speaker 1: mistake of spending too much time where there's too much
Speaker 1: pressure instead of moving on just because I know the
Speaker 1: elk are there, but they're so hard by that time
Speaker 1: to call in, they just they head for the deep dark,
Speaker 1: you know, rebroad patches and stuff that's so thick that
Speaker 1: you can't get them out of there, and they don't
Speaker 1: come out until af you're dark. So uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I I've got to get to the point where you know,
Speaker 1: you you recognize that sooner and then move on to
Speaker 1: a different area, hoping that you can get into some
Speaker 1: different elk that are maybe not as haven't been quite
Speaker 1: as pressured. Yep. And and I fall I fell into
Speaker 1: that same trap where you know, we would plan our hunt,
Speaker 1: um you know, we would pack in food, drop it off,
Speaker 1: and we would be locked into an area. And now
Speaker 1: I'm to the point where you know, people might call
Speaker 1: me crazy. And and maybe if the ball was big
Speaker 1: enough for something that really kind of you know, struck
Speaker 1: my fancy and I really wanted to try to harvest
Speaker 1: a ball, I might stay. But if I get to
Speaker 1: an area and you know the elk are there and
Speaker 1: they don't really want to play the game. We've all
Speaker 1: ran into those herds where it's just there, there's elk
Speaker 1: and I can see him and I can hear them,
Speaker 1: but they just don't want to play the game. I
Speaker 1: even pull the plug on those those situations fairly quick. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, similar to you, I grew up around home
Speaker 1: where the elk are in the same spots year after year. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's a little different when you you go out of
Speaker 1: state or you know, go south or or go east
Speaker 1: from where we're at where, But but I'm in that
Speaker 1: same boat, like I want to go find find an elk.
Speaker 1: That's that's you know, reared up, rutting, you know, willing
Speaker 1: to biggle at anything, and um, you know that's that's
Speaker 1: a that's that situation. And I'm looking for personally, is
Speaker 1: to go find elk that are willing to play the
Speaker 1: game and play the game, you know, on my terms.
Speaker 1: Um So yeah, that was kind of our our second
Speaker 1: point that kind of rolled right out of scouting was
Speaker 1: when you show up you don't find elk or you
Speaker 1: don't find elk that that want to play the game,
Speaker 1: and then not moving and kind of staying there. So
Speaker 1: I always recommend having multiple plans, or if you did
Speaker 1: your scouting right, you should have you know, ten different plans,
Speaker 1: like in in any situation. Um, you know, if we
Speaker 1: showed up like you said, on a landing or a road,
Speaker 1: or somebody got up before he and beat you to
Speaker 1: an area, I didn't have one little bit of anxiety.
Speaker 1: I didn't fret one bit. I just pulled up to
Speaker 1: you know, and I went to Spot B. You know,
Speaker 1: God willing, hopefully there's enough light that I can get there.
Speaker 1: I'm a little nervous. But you know some people that
Speaker 1: that could that could script the whole day, you know.
Speaker 1: You know, I have no hunters around here that they
Speaker 1: would just probably go home, and that's not the right.
Speaker 1: There's elk out there, um, you know that are that
Speaker 1: are ready to be hunted, and so always have you know,
Speaker 1: multiple backup plans, um. You know on x maps, you
Speaker 1: know all the mapping software that's out there, Like it's
Speaker 1: very easy to have, you know, a backup spot, a
Speaker 1: backup road, a backup canyon to to go run into
Speaker 1: if somebody else is in your spot or for some reason,
Speaker 1: your plans don't you know, pan out like like you
Speaker 1: thought they would in your head. Yeah, and you don't
Speaker 1: have to go very far on the on the on
Speaker 1: the coast range over here to get into an area
Speaker 1: where there may be other elk that didn't hear you. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, because it is so dense and the sound
Speaker 1: doesn't travel over here. You could have elk a drainage
Speaker 1: over uh and which isn't that far over here, and
Speaker 1: they wouldn't have even heard you. So I think you're
Speaker 1: right moving moving to a different area. If you've got
Speaker 1: got a bunch of guys in an area, or you've
Speaker 1: got elk that just simply just stand there and bugle
Speaker 1: back at you, but never ever commit coming in and
Speaker 1: you know, wanting to fight, then you have to make
Speaker 1: that decision early on to move on. And that that
Speaker 1: is a that's a mistake that I've made, and it's
Speaker 1: a mistake that I continue to make, especially if there's
Speaker 1: a bowl in there that kind of you know, entices
Speaker 1: me to stick around it longer and try harder. Ye
Speaker 1: next mistake and this comes from me being very lazy. Um,
Speaker 1: you know a little bit of being a rifle hunter
Speaker 1: that if I did, you know early on scare something
Speaker 1: that I was just gonna shoot the elk anyways, um,
Speaker 1: trying to cheat the wind and I'm gonna put you
Speaker 1: on the spot here. I don't know if there's a
Speaker 1: writer or wrong answer. Um in your opinion, how far
Speaker 1: do you have to be away from an elk for
Speaker 1: them not the smellion? I know there's lots of different situations,
Speaker 1: but um in your opinion, Like, if you're gonna make
Speaker 1: a circle around the elk, you know, the winds, the
Speaker 1: winds that you're back, how far? How big of a
Speaker 1: circle you make? In Tony? Uh, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know what the right answer is, Jason, But I I mean,
Speaker 1: I make a as big a circle as I can
Speaker 1: and and still be able to make contact with them,
Speaker 1: you know, so so I can still hear them. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, the wind, especially over here, doesn't seem to
Speaker 1: you know, blow in one direction very long. It just
Speaker 1: swirls and swirls. So I want to I want to
Speaker 1: try to get to the point where I'm I'm in
Speaker 1: a good position in terms of wind. But but you know,
Speaker 1: still be able to stay within a distance so that
Speaker 1: I can hear them, because they could move off if
Speaker 1: I get out too far, and I wouldn't be able
Speaker 1: to know, you know, I wouldn't know that they've they've
Speaker 1: moved on by that time. And like I said, it's
Speaker 1: so thick and dance over here. They don't move very
Speaker 1: far before you can't hear them. So I mean it's
Speaker 1: you know, maybe even a couple of hundred yards if
Speaker 1: I can still hear them, you know, in a situation
Speaker 1: if you're along a creek or something like that, to
Speaker 1: be closer, because it's just um, you know, you you
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to hear him. Now if I am
Speaker 1: in a creek, or if I'm in a position where
Speaker 1: i'm you know, I can get to a creek and
Speaker 1: I can work my way up that creek. I think.
Speaker 1: You know, what I've noticed is that those creeks seem
Speaker 1: to push that wind kind of in your favor if
Speaker 1: you're walking up the creek. So sometimes it just depends
Speaker 1: on on where you're at in relations to the elk too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and I I always I've always just kind of
Speaker 1: thought three to four yards was kind of I wanted
Speaker 1: to make a circle at least that big. And a
Speaker 1: lot of it depends on, you know, if it's going
Speaker 1: down into a creek or if it's all on the
Speaker 1: same plane or the same hillside. Um. But now, and
Speaker 1: I I don't hunt the coast ranges, is you know,
Speaker 1: much at all anymore. I have it in the past,
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of that comes from hunting
Speaker 1: the coast ranges that you can't here as well, so
Speaker 1: you're a little bit more reluctant to just take off
Speaker 1: and get you know, without it outside of earshot from
Speaker 1: these elk um. And then I'm a very impatient hunter.
Speaker 1: And so one of the things that I always going
Speaker 1: through my head is I know that that elk was
Speaker 1: just right there, you know, at that at that point
Speaker 1: in time. But if it takes me twenty or thirty
Speaker 1: minutes because I've now got to back up over a ridge,
Speaker 1: you know, go down the back side and come back over,
Speaker 1: I just I wait, you know, I'm always weighing that
Speaker 1: risk on how long is that going to take versus
Speaker 1: the risk of me getting winded before it ever gets started. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, the more patient me as I get older,
Speaker 1: I'm starting to you know, to hike back up the
Speaker 1: ridge and and make bigger circles and um, you know.
Speaker 1: And it depends on the time of day and where
Speaker 1: the elk are going, and what their plans are and
Speaker 1: how fast they're moving. You know, all that's going to
Speaker 1: to kind of tie in um to to just how
Speaker 1: directive approach and how risk I'm gonna be with with
Speaker 1: the wind. But that's one thing I made a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of mistakes on is because I was lazy. Oh
Speaker 1: I think I can just go through here and then
Speaker 1: you know, the next thing you hear is a stampede
Speaker 1: of elk running in the opposite direction. Um. So now
Speaker 1: nowadays I try not to ever cheat the wind if
Speaker 1: at all possible, or have a very very high uh
Speaker 1: you know, I've got a high certainty that I will
Speaker 1: not get winded. Um. You know, so that usually involves
Speaker 1: a five yards circle if if possible. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: and that's a good point, Jason, because I you know,
Speaker 1: I'm so used to hunting the coast range that you
Speaker 1: know when you do get over and you know on
Speaker 1: the east side where it's it's more open, maybe not
Speaker 1: quite as thick, and you can see further. Uh. I
Speaker 1: think that does give you the ability to increase the
Speaker 1: distance and still keep tabs on where they're at. So
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I mean, if if you can
Speaker 1: you know, three four or five hundred yards or something
Speaker 1: like that to to give you that buffer is good.
Speaker 1: And sometimes the train is gonna dictate that, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you're if you're in broken up, if you're in
Speaker 1: broken up terrain, um and and it's relatively close, U,
Speaker 1: it's easy to get over those ridges and kind of
Speaker 1: get around on the back side of and move around
Speaker 1: and maybe get get in closer round detected. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: and that kind of goes into our next point. Um.
Speaker 1: Our next mistake that I used to make a lot
Speaker 1: is once again cheating being seen. You know, I've always
Speaker 1: put the elk senses, you know, their noses number one,
Speaker 1: you know, not even a close race, but number two
Speaker 1: is their site. Um. They're pretty good at seeing, they
Speaker 1: can hear pretty good, but you know, there's natural sounds
Speaker 1: out there, natural animals. So number two is I used
Speaker 1: to always you know or kind of piggybacks on trying
Speaker 1: to cheat the wind, is trying to cheat their eyesight. Um,
Speaker 1: I would make an approach or as we just mentioned,
Speaker 1: if we're over east where the vegetation is in this
Speaker 1: stick where me and you grew up hunting, or you
Speaker 1: still do hunt a lot, um, I always try to avoid,
Speaker 1: you know, being seen by the elk um or even
Speaker 1: you know, unless we're a long ways away. Or I've
Speaker 1: got once again got confidence in it because I've found
Speaker 1: that every you know all that this isn't I was
Speaker 1: making when I used to think the elk Wutton sem
Speaker 1: me or I'm far enough away that the elk Winton care,
Speaker 1: we would get picked off and then it would be impossible.
Speaker 1: They might not bug you off like when um they
Speaker 1: win to you, but it would be very, very tough
Speaker 1: to call those elkin to the point where, um, nowadays,
Speaker 1: I just don't want to be seen by the elk.
Speaker 1: I want to surprise him. I want to do the
Speaker 1: shock and awe, you know, whether it's calling or whether
Speaker 1: it's being seen. Um, I just I want to avoid
Speaker 1: being seen by elk, which you know once again, on
Speaker 1: the west side coastal stuff, it's easy because you got
Speaker 1: brush and vegetation and timber and jack firs everywhere. Versus
Speaker 1: east side it's a little tougher. Yeah, No, I completely agree.
Speaker 1: I in fact, I started I started carrying a decoy
Speaker 1: for that reason when I'm in an open terrain. But
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, I've i've again I think,
Speaker 1: you know, not not every elk is the same amount,
Speaker 1: every situation is the same. I've called him. I've called
Speaker 1: him bulls before that that saw me or saw something
Speaker 1: at least and maybe they didn't make out enough of
Speaker 1: me to to really you know, give them pause. But
Speaker 1: you know they kind of run off of ways, like
Speaker 1: you say, and you can't call him back in. But
Speaker 1: but you know, I think for the most part, you know,
Speaker 1: like you said, if if they win your games over uh,
Speaker 1: if they see UH, they're gonna be a lot more
Speaker 1: cautious if anything else, Even even if they do kind
Speaker 1: of still hang out there, they're gonna be a lot
Speaker 1: more cautious because they saw something that wasn't quite right
Speaker 1: in their mind, and they're gonna be very careful in
Speaker 1: terms of of you know what, what the how close
Speaker 1: they get to whatever that perceived threat might be. For sure.
Speaker 1: UM next is maybe you know, I get to go
Speaker 1: to a lot of sportsman shows, You got to talk
Speaker 1: to a lot of hunters, get a lot of emails. UM,
Speaker 1: I feel that more mistakes may be made while setting
Speaker 1: up UM for that call in than than anywhere else.
Speaker 1: And an archiol hunters, UM, you know, in the process
Speaker 1: of trying to kill an elk Uh. You know, here's
Speaker 1: kind of the atypical story is you know, I had
Speaker 1: this bull fired up. I went and set up and
Speaker 1: they're showing me a video on their phone. Is is
Speaker 1: we're going through this whole storytelling and what you'll end
Speaker 1: up seeing is a bull that hangs up at like
Speaker 1: seventy year eight yards and won't commit and and you'll
Speaker 1: see a flash and or maybe the bull will stay
Speaker 1: there for a little bit and then the bull loses
Speaker 1: interests and turns away, maybe bugles a little bit before
Speaker 1: he goes off, kind of one last come show yourself,
Speaker 1: he'll turn away and leave. Um. It kind of piggybacks
Speaker 1: on what we said earlier is we're trying to reverse nature.
Speaker 1: And when that gets to the point where you should
Speaker 1: see you, um, you better be within shooting range. Um. So,
Speaker 1: when setting up, I feel that you need to set
Speaker 1: up either on vegetation breaks because a lot of times
Speaker 1: they will go from you know, thick cover if they're
Speaker 1: coming out of their bedding, or you know, thinner cover
Speaker 1: if they're going from food to betting. UM. I like
Speaker 1: to set up within forty yards of either side of that.
Speaker 1: And because what that gives me is when they get
Speaker 1: to that chain engine vegetation, we're gonna have a shot,
Speaker 1: and then the same thing with terrain. If I want
Speaker 1: to be within forty yards of that terrain break So
Speaker 1: when that bowl can finally get his eyes up to
Speaker 1: a point where he should be able to see the
Speaker 1: cow with the bull calling to him, I want to
Speaker 1: be able to, uh, you know, shoot at that time
Speaker 1: because the time that bowl is gonna hold up at
Speaker 1: that exact location, Like I could almost draw an X
Speaker 1: on the map, like that thing's gonna hold up here. Um.
Speaker 1: So that's one of the tips I have, you know,
Speaker 1: when going to set up, you know, use the terrain
Speaker 1: and use that vegetation to your advantage. Because there were
Speaker 1: a lot of times, um, you know, especially like setting
Speaker 1: up on meadows. When I started hunting the high country stuff,
Speaker 1: I thought the best thing ever was to set up
Speaker 1: right on the edge of a meadow, you know, be
Speaker 1: it be in the timber, have a wide open meadow
Speaker 1: out in front of me, because guess what, there's no
Speaker 1: breash in my way, there's no sticks that are gonna deflect,
Speaker 1: and guess what, I very I think one time in
Speaker 1: my life so far, I have got a bowl to
Speaker 1: run wide open through a meadow and actually get to
Speaker 1: the other side where we could have ever shot it. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I've experienced the same thing and I've done the same
Speaker 1: thing that numerous times. I mean, this is kind of
Speaker 1: going back to what you said Earlily, kind of when
Speaker 1: you when we started talking here, Jason, Um, you know it,
Speaker 1: we didn't have the same kind of resources that are
Speaker 1: available now, and and I didn't have anybody that really
Speaker 1: taught me anything about our tree. And it was all
Speaker 1: by trial and are so so. Not only did I
Speaker 1: set up on the edge of of clearings thinking that
Speaker 1: I was going to call a bull and across an
Speaker 1: open meadow, but you know I would I would set up,
Speaker 1: you know, going back a long time now, I didn't
Speaker 1: want that help to see me, so I'd actually set
Speaker 1: up behind a bush or a tree or something like that,
Speaker 1: and thinking that that that elk was gonna maybe walk
Speaker 1: past me and I was going to get a shot. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean that that just doesn't happen, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: trust your camel, get in front of getting get in
Speaker 1: front of the tree or the brush or something like
Speaker 1: So you've got open lanes and for me over here
Speaker 1: on the coast, it's because it is so thick. It
Speaker 1: is more about terrain. Uh. You know, I've I've called
Speaker 1: you know, I've set up in the wrong place many times,
Speaker 1: and you you call a bull in and they come
Speaker 1: up over this little rise and they get up there
Speaker 1: just far enough to where they can peek over that
Speaker 1: that little riser and look and see, and you've got
Speaker 1: no shot at all. So you know you're exactly right
Speaker 1: getting up there, uh, where you're going to have an
Speaker 1: open shot. Not only not only with you know, open
Speaker 1: shooting lanes at least on the coast range, but having
Speaker 1: having that opportunity to be in an area where that
Speaker 1: bull isn't going to hold up, you know, do do
Speaker 1: some calling and and get up there a ways so
Speaker 1: that that bowl doesn't you know, pinpoint your location and
Speaker 1: and that way you've got an opportunity there. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: I can still remember the very first year I ever
Speaker 1: archery hunted, and you were talking a little bit about
Speaker 1: setting up in the brush. I was super inexperienced, and
Speaker 1: I thought, Hey, the best place to be is the
Speaker 1: jump in this pile of brush. I you know, for
Speaker 1: some reason, I remember there being some BlackBerry briers, you know,
Speaker 1: just finishing out, and it was just a tangled mess
Speaker 1: that we have here on the coastal, you know, vegetation,
Speaker 1: and you know, the last thing you think about is
Speaker 1: that you're gonna have, you know, whatever of arrow hanging
Speaker 1: out the front of your bow that you can't move
Speaker 1: and and you can be as careful as you want,
Speaker 1: but that dang arrow was like getting wrapped up and
Speaker 1: then the broadhead gets hung up on something and you
Speaker 1: can't move. So if you need to move, because unless
Speaker 1: I just happened to be pointing in the right direction,
Speaker 1: like you've got to figure out how to draw the boat,
Speaker 1: you gotta figure out how to get it pointed in
Speaker 1: the right direction. And yeah, from then on, like I
Speaker 1: don't even similar to that. I don't even set up
Speaker 1: on my knees anymore, Like I am. I am on
Speaker 1: my feet at all times. Um, you know that I
Speaker 1: will set up on my knees if if for some reason,
Speaker 1: there's like a level of brush that you know, if
Speaker 1: we're in big timber where the brush lines like at
Speaker 1: three or four feet, and I don't want to shoot
Speaker 1: through it, and I want to shoot under it. But
Speaker 1: for the majority of the time, I'd say I'm setting
Speaker 1: up all my feet being fairly mobile in front of
Speaker 1: the brush or and you know, alongside of a big
Speaker 1: tree is typically my favorite set up, you know, either
Speaker 1: behind me or to my direction. That gives me a
Speaker 1: little bit of coverage. Um and and yeah, so I
Speaker 1: was Yeah, I learned the hard way on multiple balls
Speaker 1: that first season of Do not set up in the
Speaker 1: brush because they pick you off trying to move or
Speaker 1: get a shot. Yeah, for sure. And and and you mentioned,
Speaker 1: you know, setting up on your knees. I used to
Speaker 1: do that too, because it's comfortable. You know, I could
Speaker 1: get down there and I could stay that stay in
Speaker 1: that position for a long time. But you know, those
Speaker 1: bulls will come in from various directions. And and just
Speaker 1: because you're calling to a bowl and you know where
Speaker 1: that bulls at doesn't mean a bull is gonna not
Speaker 1: gonna come in silent from a different direction. So you
Speaker 1: have to be mobile, You have to be able to turn.
Speaker 1: You have to get that that you know, whatever that
Speaker 1: brushes or you know, sticks or twigs or whatever it's
Speaker 1: on the ground, get it cleaned out so that when
Speaker 1: you do have to move or you do have to
Speaker 1: stand up, if you're knelt down, that you're not making
Speaker 1: any noise when you do stand up, and and breaking
Speaker 1: those branches off when you get into position and you've
Speaker 1: got shooting lanes. You know, I was chuckling earlier because
Speaker 1: you mentioned something. I thought your arrow getting hung up
Speaker 1: in the brush. I can't tell you how many times
Speaker 1: I've done that. You just not paying attention and that
Speaker 1: broadhead catches something and it just it'll either pulled off
Speaker 1: the string or it just clanks up against your eyes
Speaker 1: or something. And and then you know your your hands
Speaker 1: over because I heard it yep, yep, And um, you
Speaker 1: know that that brings you. But you don't know where
Speaker 1: the elks coming from. Um. I like to, you know,
Speaker 1: visualize all my shooting lanes, Like if an elk is
Speaker 1: to come in here and he goes left, right, right
Speaker 1: to left straight at me, like where are my shooting lanes?
Speaker 1: And then one thing I like to always, you know,
Speaker 1: explain to people is and you know it mainly be
Speaker 1: one or two times because you're gonna figure it out.
Speaker 1: But I learned the hard way is a right handed shooter,
Speaker 1: I can turn you know, we can all sit here
Speaker 1: listen to this podcast. You can turn over your left
Speaker 1: shoulder and I can turn eighty degrees, you know, almost
Speaker 1: to my left, and I can get a decent shot
Speaker 1: off that direction. But if you ask me to turn
Speaker 1: about twenty degrees to my right and open up, you
Speaker 1: know clockwise, I can't shoot anything over there. So I
Speaker 1: learned really quick that I'm gonna put like my left shoulder,
Speaker 1: if not even shade my back to where I think
Speaker 1: that bowl is gonna come from. And then that gives
Speaker 1: me the whitest ability is shooting. There's just little things
Speaker 1: where you know, I don't have to move my feet
Speaker 1: that way, I don't have to like change my stance. Um,
Speaker 1: you know some of those things on shooting lanes, and
Speaker 1: then you know, pick out multiple ones. I always recommend
Speaker 1: take the time before you there are situations where elk
Speaker 1: are coming fast and they're not giving you a lot
Speaker 1: of time. But always try to range, you know, three
Speaker 1: or four trees, not a bunch of them. Um, I
Speaker 1: try to get and then try to draw some circles
Speaker 1: and some zones out in front of me. But you know,
Speaker 1: take the time, figure out your shooting lanes, what your
Speaker 1: distances are going to be, and then kind of you know,
Speaker 1: settle in there. Yeah, that's that's a good tip right there.
Speaker 1: And then the biggest mistake. I feel we We've talked
Speaker 1: about it up top on some of you know, calling
Speaker 1: the herd bulls in. We've we've did this enough. We've
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've called a bulling from a half mile away.
Speaker 1: But the if you were to start, if you were
Speaker 1: a betting guy, I'm going to bet that you would
Speaker 1: want to get as close as possible before you started
Speaker 1: calling or tried to call a bull in every time. UM.
Speaker 1: And that's that's my biggest thing when people go to
Speaker 1: set up as they don't get close enough. Um. As
Speaker 1: much as I'd like to tell people, I call bulls
Speaker 1: in from miles away, and you know, blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: whatever it might be, the fact is, if I can
Speaker 1: get within a hundred yards, I think I'm two times
Speaker 1: as likely to call a bulling from a hundred yards
Speaker 1: as I am from two hundred. And you know, four
Speaker 1: times as likely to call it in from two hundred
Speaker 1: as I am from three hundred. You know, it's it's
Speaker 1: exponential the closer you get. And you know, I've always
Speaker 1: joked joked about getting a T shirt made like a
Speaker 1: short distance Elk Coller because we do a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, we cover a lot of the ground with
Speaker 1: our feet and only use those calls to do, you know,
Speaker 1: to manipulate those elk and get them to travel very
Speaker 1: very you know, short distance as hopefully. Yeah. No, I
Speaker 1: I agree, I you know, I hear every year it's
Speaker 1: either it's either guys will set up and you know,
Speaker 1: in the brush somewhere and they're they're calling and that
Speaker 1: bull is calling back at him, but but they never
Speaker 1: close the distance. That bull will stand out there, you know,
Speaker 1: a hundred yards or more and just bugle back and
Speaker 1: forth at if if all you want to do is
Speaker 1: just bugle, he's happy to do that. Or tree stand hunters.
Speaker 1: I there's this one area that we hunted over easton,
Speaker 1: Oregon where this guy sets up with a tree stand.
Speaker 1: He'll sit up there and bugle his brains out, and
Speaker 1: those bulls are bugling all the way around him, and
Speaker 1: they just stay out there. He never gets down out
Speaker 1: of his tree stand to to try to close the
Speaker 1: distance on And like I said, those bulls, if if,
Speaker 1: if you, if you're not perceived, is this some kind
Speaker 1: of a threat, They'll just they'll just stand there and
Speaker 1: and bugle at you. I mean, why would they why
Speaker 1: would they want to come closer if you're no threat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's you know, I've always told that if you don't
Speaker 1: become the threat, you're literally just saying, hey, I'm over here,
Speaker 1: and he's saying, hey, I'm over there. You know, I
Speaker 1: think you guys are literally we're just part of the
Speaker 1: game where it's just letting everybody know where that's that's
Speaker 1: what they do every day. Yeah. Um. The next one,
Speaker 1: which I feel is definitely a coastal thing. You know,
Speaker 1: thick vegetation, thick timber, lots of brush, no real openings
Speaker 1: unless you're above a clear cut or you know, on
Speaker 1: a road system. Is calling too small? Um, let me
Speaker 1: give me a little bit on kind of what your
Speaker 1: thought is, you know, volume wise, and and you know
Speaker 1: how you call to to elk out in the woods.
Speaker 1: So so usually you know, first thing in the morning
Speaker 1: when I'm out, you know, a hiking in the dark. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, bulls at least around here seem to be
Speaker 1: way more vocal, uh in the dark because they feel safer.
Speaker 1: So and I'll go out and throughout a locate bugle
Speaker 1: and you know, if I get something to respond, then
Speaker 1: I'll work my way that direct and until the sun
Speaker 1: comes up, you know where you can see and you
Speaker 1: can see your pins and if if you did come in,
Speaker 1: you could actually have a good shot opportunity there. Um,
Speaker 1: But you know, as thick as this stuff is, and
Speaker 1: and you have to get close to them to be
Speaker 1: perceived as that threat. And the closer I get, I
Speaker 1: mean I will start out mimicking them and if that works, great,
Speaker 1: you know, And I've had that work a number of
Speaker 1: times where you mimke that bowl and they don't like
Speaker 1: it and they come in. But if they don't, then
Speaker 1: you're the one that has to make the move. Otherwise
Speaker 1: they're just gonna stand out there and and you kind
Speaker 1: of get in that game back and forth. But um,
Speaker 1: you know, I I go in as close as I can,
Speaker 1: and I'll rip off a challenge Google, I'll throw a
Speaker 1: lip ball in there, uh you know, big, you know,
Speaker 1: grunts and chuckles and just as loud as I can,
Speaker 1: and and just start stomping on the ground and tearing
Speaker 1: up brush. And I mean that's that's my strategy. And
Speaker 1: I mean it does work. They do come in closer.
Speaker 1: But you know a lot of times over here we
Speaker 1: don't have all the greatest shooting lines, but but I
Speaker 1: I found that if if if you get in their
Speaker 1: face and and you get more volume out of that tube,
Speaker 1: and and that call that oftentimes is what kind of
Speaker 1: triggers that that reaction or that response for them to
Speaker 1: to finally say I've had enough and I'm coming in
Speaker 1: and we're going to fight. Yep. And and I got
Speaker 1: a couple of examples. So one reason when I'm locating,
Speaker 1: I want to call big is my purpose for letting
Speaker 1: those located bugles, as we just said, is it's a
Speaker 1: game of hey, I'm over here, and then you hopefully
Speaker 1: you know, you know, waves across the at the canyon like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm over here. You know, I'm just I want that
Speaker 1: vehicle to reach as many elk in that canyon as possible.
Speaker 1: You know, people can call me lazy or whatever, but
Speaker 1: I've already put the time into walk that ridge, or
Speaker 1: walk that trail system, or bike in a certain road.
Speaker 1: I might as well let my bugle covers absolutely much
Speaker 1: you know, ground as possible. I don't feel and you know,
Speaker 1: you can overlocate um. You know, if they're there, they'll
Speaker 1: answer you. If not, then you'll keep driving. Buy or
Speaker 1: if they heard you and didn't answer, then it is
Speaker 1: what it is. We didn't necessarily, you know, educate them
Speaker 1: because they didn't smell us, they didn't see us. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, now now driving up and and and calling
Speaker 1: a different thing, I think that can educate elk. But
Speaker 1: so we're calling as big as possible. And then the
Speaker 1: other thing is, you know, similar to you, I'm fortunate
Speaker 1: to get the hunt with some great colors and what
Speaker 1: I would consider some very loud colors at the very
Speaker 1: high end. Um. You know, we don't set up the
Speaker 1: color too far back. He's usually you know, maybe thirty
Speaker 1: yards max. But I've got colors, you know, if I'm
Speaker 1: shooting and not doing any calling, uh, that are cranking
Speaker 1: on bagles as big as they can be. And and
Speaker 1: it's not that loud compared to the real look that's
Speaker 1: coming in. You know that that elk can rip off,
Speaker 1: you know, a bigle at fifty yards. And my buddy,
Speaker 1: who I thought was a loud color, doesn't sound half
Speaker 1: of you know, half is that big half the volume.
Speaker 1: And so when you're out there in the woods, no
Speaker 1: matter how loud you think you are, you're just not
Speaker 1: competing with the real thing. You know, you don't got
Speaker 1: the lung capacity of a nine pound animal or eight
Speaker 1: underd pound animal um. And so in my opinion, we
Speaker 1: call big um for locating to reach as much ground.
Speaker 1: And then when we're calling the elk, we call big
Speaker 1: so that they you know, once again, we're trying to
Speaker 1: be a threat and we want to be as big
Speaker 1: and nasty as we can, and I think we still
Speaker 1: fall short the majority of the time. Oh absolutely, I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean you're exactly right. Are our lung capacity and
Speaker 1: our diaphragm just cannot make the same sounds or produce
Speaker 1: the same volume of a bull can. So I personally
Speaker 1: don't think that you can be too loud. I go
Speaker 1: through I go through a lot of diaphragms each season
Speaker 1: because number one, I ugle a lot, and secondly, when
Speaker 1: I do, I bugle hard and loud, so there's a
Speaker 1: lot of volume going through there. I try to hit
Speaker 1: those high ringing notes that that just, you know, pierce
Speaker 1: your ear. And I want them to know that that
Speaker 1: I'm number one, I'm here, number two, I'm close, and
Speaker 1: I'm about to get in your face and we're about
Speaker 1: to have a fight. And and that's that's the goal, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, you're not out there playing paddy Cake with
Speaker 1: these bulls. You want to again be perceived as that threat,
Speaker 1: get in their face, get as loud and mean and
Speaker 1: nasty as you want to or you can, and and
Speaker 1: that's that's the goal. Yeah, and we're onto. You know,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, the biggest mistake I made, which we
Speaker 1: I understand, Um, you know, not everybody has unlimited time
Speaker 1: or can be out there every day, is I didn't
Speaker 1: put enough time in. Um. You know, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: say this is is It's not a mistake necessarily, but
Speaker 1: it's one of the things that I've been able to
Speaker 1: attribute to success and continued success is I spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time out there, and for a guy that's
Speaker 1: supposed to know what he's doing, Um, there are times
Speaker 1: where I can do everything that I think is right
Speaker 1: and still screw up day after day after day. And
Speaker 1: so the only thing that's worked on my side is
Speaker 1: the you know, the additional time that that I get
Speaker 1: to go again tomorrow or the following day. Um. So
Speaker 1: you know, if if you you know, I was there,
Speaker 1: I was a weekend warrior for a long time, or
Speaker 1: a three day weekend guy. You know, it was all
Speaker 1: I could pull off and then um, you know, started
Speaker 1: to be able to get a week to do it.
Speaker 1: And I found the you know, the more time I
Speaker 1: could put towards it, obviously, the more success I found. Um.
Speaker 1: But that's kind of the last thing is is you know,
Speaker 1: if you don't have time, um, it just everything becomes tougher,
Speaker 1: you know, the situations have to work out, you know better.
Speaker 1: And and yeah, you know, as you said, Tony, you're
Speaker 1: you're you know, taking two weeks off hunting all the weekends,
Speaker 1: you know, nights after work. Um. I think one thing
Speaker 1: that people don't realize is people that are finding success.
Speaker 1: You're in and year out, like any free time is
Speaker 1: being dedicated to trying to fill these tags. Because no
Speaker 1: matter how good you are, UM, nothings to guarantee when
Speaker 1: it comes to Elk Hunton, you know, And you're right,
Speaker 1: and it's just like it's like a lot of things
Speaker 1: in life, you know, Jason, is the more often you're
Speaker 1: out in the woods, that just increases your odds of
Speaker 1: of even incidental encounters. You know, it just happened to
Speaker 1: be set up in an area just you know, glass
Speaker 1: and you're watching and the bull looks out in front
Speaker 1: of you, you know, I mean that that's luck. I
Speaker 1: think doesn't happen to me very often. But just the
Speaker 1: fact that you're out there increases your chances of being successful.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter how good of a hunter you
Speaker 1: are or how much time you've put in and dedicated
Speaker 1: to this sport. You can't outthink and I elk, you
Speaker 1: can't second guess them. You're gonna make the same mistakes
Speaker 1: you're in and year out, and and just being persistent,
Speaker 1: not giving up, you know, going that extra mile when
Speaker 1: you think you know I'm done, I'm just I'm frustrated.
Speaker 1: I can't do this anymore, you know, push through it
Speaker 1: and just keep trying, because the only way you're going
Speaker 1: to be able to be successful is to be out
Speaker 1: there and and continue, you know, striving for what you
Speaker 1: love to do. You yep, And you know, I guess
Speaker 1: that would be my advice. Um. You know, you can't
Speaker 1: necessarily control how much vacation time or what you get.
Speaker 1: But you know, we we have guys around home that
Speaker 1: or you know, what I would consider weekend warriors. But
Speaker 1: I'll see him, you know, come in at nine o'clock
Speaker 1: in the morning, and then they go back out at Fortnite,
Speaker 1: like there are elk to be killed between nine and four,
Speaker 1: Like give it you're all you know, spend time, um,
Speaker 1: you know, figure out how to hunt the middle of day,
Speaker 1: like maximize your time out in the field. And uh,
Speaker 1: I think you're gonna find a lot more success in
Speaker 1: closing Tony. If you had to give one golden nugget
Speaker 1: to elk hunters out there, um to make them more successful,
Speaker 1: what would it be? You know? For me? Jason kind
Speaker 1: of gets back to what I was just saying. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm fortunate enough to live in an area
Speaker 1: where you know, as soon as I get go from work,
Speaker 1: I can be in the woods in fifteen minutes. Um,
Speaker 1: So spending as much time as you can. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: perseverance will get you there, you know, Uh, picking up
Speaker 1: some calls and and even if even in the off season,
Speaker 1: just keep practicing, keep practicing and and become more versatile
Speaker 1: of those calls so that when you're out there in
Speaker 1: the woods and you're trying to mimic those bulls, that
Speaker 1: you have more calls at your disposal, more tools in
Speaker 1: the toolbox, so to speak, so that when the when
Speaker 1: the opportunity arises, you can capitalize on that. That's that's
Speaker 1: a great tip, Tony. I really appreciate having you on. Um.
Speaker 1: Good luck this fall, and uh yeah, congrats congrats again
Speaker 1: on on the standings there at the World out Calling Championships.
Speaker 1: Another great showing by you and just kind of goes
Speaker 1: to show that you you you're pretty dang good. Well.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that, Jason very much, and good luck to
Speaker 1: you and and uh hopefully we can do this again sometime. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks a lot, good luck, Tony, and we'll catch up later,
Speaker 1: all right. Thanks Jason M.