1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 10 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. You tell me your name 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: and kind of the title you like to go. 14 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 2: By, Sure, Melissa del bosc And I'm a freelance investigative reporter. 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: Melissa del Bosca is an author who wrote a recent 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: book called Bloodlines, The true story of a drug cartel, 17 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: the FBI, and the Battle for a horse racing dynasty. 18 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: Melissa spent time in Mexico reporting on how one cartel 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: run by three brothers created an unprecedented amount of violence 20 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: and how they were finally caught, in part thanks to 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: two FBI agents. 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 2: I think the major themes are the drug war in 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: Mexico and how it changed for the worst in twenty ten, 24 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 2: with the Zetas rising up through the ranks and becoming 25 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 2: their own cartel. It's also about political corruption, money laundering 26 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 2: in horse racing. 27 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: So tell me about this time period. I'm used to 28 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: doing stories that are very, very old, and this is 29 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: obviously much more modern, much more contemporary. You said, you 30 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: know at the beginning of this that we're entering a 31 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: time in twenty ten where this became more violent. Just 32 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: sort of position us where we are in the world 33 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: right now. 34 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: I started covering the US Mexico border in nineteen ninety eight. 35 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: That's when I started writing about it. So nine to 36 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: eleven it was a very different place. There was a 37 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: lot more fluidity of people going back and forth. There 38 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 2: weren't walls, you know, other than in California. There wasn't 39 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: as much violence. After nine to eleven happened. The sort 40 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 2: of militarization of the border started with the creation of 41 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: the Department of Homeland Security and the doubling up of agents, 42 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 2: and then the wall building started, and then twenty ten 43 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 2: was another significant historical moment for the US Mexico border 44 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: because of the drug war which kicked off in earnest 45 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: in two thousand and six under President Felipe Calderone in 46 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: Mexico who upon becoming president, he had a contested election 47 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 2: and was accused of stealing the election, and sort of 48 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 2: to exert his might and to show his power, release 49 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: a military into the streets of Mexico to fight drug cartels, 50 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 2: which touched off this countrywide sort of battle between the 51 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 2: military and the cartels, and sometimes the two also worked 52 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: together as one against other factions of drug cartels. So 53 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 2: in twenty ten we see the rise of the Zettas, 54 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: who were former Special Force soldiers who were trained by 55 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 2: the Americans to fight narco trafficking. The thing is, the 56 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 2: drug dealers had more money, so they were convinced into 57 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 2: going to work for the Gulf Cartel, which is the 58 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 2: main cartel on the eastern part of Mexico. And they're 59 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: an organization that have been around since, you know, Prohibition, 60 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: since the twenties, nineteen twenties and thirties, started with like 61 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 2: bootlegging and rum running into the United States during Prohibition 62 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 2: and gained their power through selling black market goods basically, 63 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: and then got into drugs, drug smuggling. 64 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: And how many people are we talking about at this 65 00:03:58,600 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: point in the Zetas. 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 2: You know, it was a small group in the beginning 67 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: of special Force soldiers who crossed over to work for 68 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: the golf cartel, and then as they grew, they grew 69 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: in size, bringing in other former military and one of 70 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 2: the main characters is Miguel Trevigno and his family. The 71 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: story is about how the Zetas splintered off from the 72 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 2: golf cartel to establish their own cartel using this military 73 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: training and just hyper hyper violence. The story really focuses 74 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 2: on the ascent of Miguel Trevigno, who was a young 75 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: guy from Nouvea Loedo who had family in Texas and 76 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 2: had joined the Zeta's cartel. 77 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 3: So Miguel came up through the ranks based on. 78 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: His sort of hyper violent, really bloodthirsty reputation that he 79 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 2: was known for. Alongside his younger brother Omar, who was 80 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 2: his right hand man, they were known for kidnapping and 81 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 2: killing and doing all sorts of terrible things, and the 82 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: reputation helped him make this really rapid ascent through the 83 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 2: ranks of the Zetas to the very top. 84 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: But is this surprising? I mean, how do two brothers 85 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: end up this way? 86 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: Well, they're from a large family that ranges both Nueva 87 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 2: Laredo and Laredo on the Texas side, and also Dallas. 88 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: They've got family members in Dallas. They grew up hunting, 89 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: you know, around Loueva Laredo out there in the ranch lands. 90 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 2: And before that they had sort of a history of 91 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: more petty crimes. One of their older brothers was arrested 92 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 2: for drugs smuggling in Dallas, so they were working for him, 93 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 2: learning how to smuggle up and down the I thirty 94 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: five corridor from Dallas down into Mexico. By all accounts, 95 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: Miguel is just a very ambitious person, the middle child, 96 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 2: really wanting to stand out and really wanting to rapidly ascend. 97 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 2: He also had a big chip on his shoulder. I 98 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 2: think about being from a poor family. 99 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: What is your impression of what Miguel and his brother 100 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: were like. Were they consider charming or. 101 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 3: Not considered charming at all? 102 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 2: I mean, the stories that I would hear is Omar 103 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 2: his brother would stop and eat a hot dog on 104 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 2: a corpse. He would sit on the corpse and use 105 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: it as a as a. 106 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 3: Bench so that he could eat his lunch. 107 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 2: They found it amusing to torture people and watch them die. 108 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: They thought of new ways of making people suffer. So 109 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: they really seemed to glory in the blood shedding and 110 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 2: the torture and the things that they were doing. 111 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,799 Speaker 1: I still don't understand that mindset. Where does that come from. 112 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 2: Miguel started at an early age, like both he and 113 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: his brother left school and he started just apprenticing with 114 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: local crime bosses and the waive of Laredo and really 115 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: looking up to what he thought were powerful men. And 116 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 2: these were drug smugglers and you know, crime bosses who 117 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: were killing people. And I think he understood in an 118 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 2: early age that using violence that he. 119 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 3: Could get far. 120 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: And I think obviously he was desensitized to that kind 121 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 2: of violence and didn't have a problem doing it and 122 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 2: actually relished it. I always wondered that myself in writing 123 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: the book, exactly how do you get to that point 124 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: where you can do those types of things? And what 125 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: are your dreams like at night? Do you even have dreams? 126 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: You've got to be a pretty traumatized and messed up 127 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: person to do those kinds of things. 128 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: Do they have families, Omar and Miguel. 129 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 3: They both have wives and children. 130 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: So these parts of their lives are compartmentalized. I guess 131 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: as well, I. 132 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 2: Would imagine, So, I mean, I've tried to understand that 133 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: sort of mindset. At one point, I went to the 134 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: federal prison in what Is to visit a guy who 135 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: was in there. I went with his parents. We were 136 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: walking around the prison, and the prisons in Mexico are 137 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: real interesting. They're like little towns of the own. You 138 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: can go in there and they have restaurants and stores. 139 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 3: Really, yeah, it's crazy. 140 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 2: I was in line to get into the federal prison 141 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 2: in Wadas with a cabrito that they were bringing in, 142 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 2: which was a live baby goat for a barbecue that 143 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 2: some cartel boss had ordered from inside. So it's a 144 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: sort of carnival atmosphere. And the person who ran the 145 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: prison was called Elskadio and he was with the Sineloa cartel, 146 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 2: and the butcher of Ohinaga was also in there, who 147 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: was a notorious crime boss. 148 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 3: The family that. 149 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: I was going there with was bringing in animals because 150 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 2: they wanted to have an animal menagerie for the kids 151 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 2: who were coming to visit their parents in the jail. 152 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, the Saccadio. 153 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 2: Wanted this, and the butcher of Ohinaga complained that the 154 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: children were killing all the animals. So it gives you 155 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 2: an idea of how this sort of ripples out in 156 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: a family, right, is that they could not have a 157 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: zoo for the kids because the kids would kill everything. 158 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: Oh gosh. 159 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 3: Yeah. 160 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: So the just the level of like trauma and violence 161 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 2: that just permeates through these families and the kind of 162 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 2: things that they've seen are just kind of unimaginable, you know. 163 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: But that really gave me some insight into even if 164 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: they try to keep it compartmentalized, they can't. 165 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it all spills out and influences their kids. 166 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 167 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Miguel and Omar would have had to have been 168 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: fearful that I would guess that they would get caught 169 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: and then what would happen to their families. 170 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 2: I think they're constantly fearful. And I think the whole 171 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 2: idea to do the money laundering in the racehorses in 172 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 2: the United States was due to that they have all 173 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: this money, but they know it's not going to last 174 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 2: so they've got to get it out of Mexico. They 175 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: have to get it into real estate or something that's 176 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: tangible for their families, for their mother who's in Dallas, 177 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: for the rest of the family, so that they can 178 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: hold on to that money that they have. 179 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 3: Before they're killed or captured. 180 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: This is a naive question, but does their mother know 181 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: that they're doing this? 182 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, I'm sure she does. It would be impossible 183 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: not to know. 184 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: Well, this is a perfect segue into the horse business. 185 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 2: Sure, we're talking about two thousand and nine twenty ten. 186 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 2: So as Miguel and Omar making their rise in the Zetas, 187 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 2: and Miguel will by twenty eleven be the leader of 188 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: the Zetas, they are making millions and millions and millions 189 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: of dollars from shipments of drugs coming through Nuevo Laredo. 190 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 2: They're making something like thirty million dollars just on one deal. 191 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: Incredible. 192 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 2: So they've got so much money they don't know what 193 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: to do with it. So they've got a whole army 194 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: of accountants and lawyers trying to launder this money and 195 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: track the money and put it back into their operation 196 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: and then also overseas, so they are already racing horses 197 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 2: in Mexico. It's a very status driven thing. All the 198 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 2: cartels have their favorite race horses, they have racehorse stables, 199 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: They race against each other, and they race for cash, 200 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: you know, million dollars or whatever. They'll have these clandestine races. 201 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: I heard stories about how they would go to Durango 202 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 2: or somewhere like that and just close down the racetrack 203 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 2: for their own personal use. And they would do that 204 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: in Nuevo Laredo too, where they would just Miguel would decide, 205 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 2: I want the racetracks, so they'd close it down so 206 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 2: he could race his horses against his friends horses. The courterhorse, 207 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: and we're talking about courter horse racing here, which is 208 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: really a thing in the Southwest and in Mexico and 209 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 2: all the way down into Brazil. It's very very popular. 210 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: Oklahoma City has the Heritage Place auctions that happen. When 211 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 2: you go into Heritage Place, you see people there from 212 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 2: all over the world. You see a lot of Brazilians, 213 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: you see people from all over Mexico, people from the US, 214 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: and they're all there to bid on these racehorses. What's 215 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 2: really noticeable, too, is that the cartels are there, and 216 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: they really stand out because they have different fashion choices 217 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: like what yeah, like the Sinaloa guys would wear these 218 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: pointy pointy boots. The golf cartel guys really like that, 219 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: like ed hardy stuff, you know, they like ryanstones and 220 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 2: like the tattoo type imagery. One of the insignias for 221 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 2: the Zettas was the Ferrari emblem, So you would see 222 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 2: guys walking around in Ferrari jackets and they're all on 223 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 2: Nextel radio phones talking to their bosses back in Mexico 224 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: about who they're gonna bid on and who does your 225 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 2: boss want? And it's this whole ecosystem. And there are 226 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 2: million dollar races in the US. If your horses can 227 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 2: win in these million dollar races in the United States, 228 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: you're gonna make a lot of money. But it's not 229 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: just about the races. The point of the race is 230 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 2: to win and then to breed that horse, So the 231 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: money is really in the breeding. 232 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 1: These are legitimate races, Yes, these. 233 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: Are legitimate races that we're talking about. So the breeding 234 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 2: of a of a champion horse is where the real 235 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: money is. So if you can win one of these 236 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 2: million dollar Court of Horse races that happen. Then you've 237 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: got a champion sire that you can breed and advertise. 238 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 2: It's like a retirement fund basically for you. 239 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: I cannot imagine the amount of pressure that these trainers 240 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: and these jockeys working for these guys must have felt. 241 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: You must feel like your life is on the line 242 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: depending on the choices you make. 243 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: An incredible amount of pressure. And I think it's already 244 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 2: so much pressure anyways, even when you're not working for 245 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: a grim boss, you know, or a drug cartel. And 246 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: I think there was a lot of don ask, don't tell, 247 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: you know, like, yeah, I know this guy from Mexico's 248 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: got a ton of money paying for this and that, 249 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,119 Speaker 2: and I'm just not going to ask too many questions. 250 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: Mexican race horse owners have kept the American racing industry 251 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,479 Speaker 2: on life support. You know, they've revitalized it. Without Mexico, 252 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: the US industry would be dead. 253 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: Oh I didn't that. 254 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really dwindling. The amount of people that go 255 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: to horse races. The US industry really really really counts 256 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 2: on the Mexicans and the Brazilians to come to these 257 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: auctions and to spend money and to keep injecting money 258 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 2: into the industry. 259 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: So Miguel and Omar decide to make a big move. 260 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: Right how does this all start? 261 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: Well, I mean they start with a buyer from Monterey, 262 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: a guy named Ramudo Villa Real, who is buying horses 263 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: for them in the United States and bringing them down 264 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: to Mexico and vice versa. But I think Miguel feels 265 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: that Ramudo knows too much about their business. And Miguel 266 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: is a very paranoid guy. You know, he should be, 267 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: as he should be as any direct cartel boss is. 268 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: They don't want anybody knowing too much about what they're doing. 269 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: Usually they only trust family, and even then they don't 270 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: trust their family sometimes that much. So Miguel decides that 271 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 2: they need to get rid of Ramuto because I feel 272 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 2: like Romitto's also patting his expenses, you know. So he 273 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: settles on the idea of getting his brother Jose into 274 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 2: the business. Because Jose is a US citizen, he's a 275 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: brick mason living outside Dallas. He doesn't have a record, 276 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 2: and he's a low key guy with several kids, really 277 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: struggling to make it as a brick mason. So he 278 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 2: convinces his brother to be the front for their racing 279 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 2: company and breeding company. 280 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 3: So Jose does it. 281 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: They start buying expensive horses, they start winning some of 282 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: these million dollar races, and just like Miguel ascended really 283 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: quickly in the drug world, Jose just takes off in 284 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: courter horse racing and has won like more million dollar 285 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: perses than anybody in a lifetime of quarter horse racing. 286 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: Legitimately. 287 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: Illegitimately, they find out the FBI comes to discover that 288 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 2: a lot of it is through cheating. They are constantly 289 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: adding new things that they're being tested for, and trainers 290 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: are constantly finding ways to get around it. So it's 291 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: like an arms race. I mean, all these horses are 292 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: being dragged to get that edge to win, and it's 293 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: win at all costs. It's very very sad because they 294 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: really suffer and a lot of them end up dying 295 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: after the races. They inject him with all kinds of things. 296 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: They've injected in cocaine, frog venom, any kind of thing 297 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 2: that will give them a jolt and make them run faster. 298 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: They'll take a quarter of a mile essentially right right. 299 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: Because the cordal horse racing, it's explosive speed that has to. 300 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 3: Happen essentially, Yeah, right out of the gate. 301 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 2: It's the differences are in seconds, so there's a lot 302 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: on the line. Miguel and Jose they went all in 303 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 2: on doing whatever it took to make sure that they won. 304 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: So Jose is now a star in the world of 305 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: racing right in the United States. 306 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he's come out of nowhere. As a brick mason. 307 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: He was making fifty thousand a year on a good year, 308 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: with four children, and all of a sudden, he's winning 309 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 2: these million dollar races. He's got all this money. He's 310 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 2: going to auctions and spending incredible amounts of money on 311 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: horses and getting everybody's attention, like, who is this guy? 312 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: I want to backtrack because I had forgotten about the 313 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: man who was about to be murdered because he knew 314 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: too much. 315 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 2: What happened with Ramido is that he died under mysterious circumstances. 316 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 2: In quotes, it was reported as a one car rollover, 317 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: and his car was entirely incinerated. It was just a shell, 318 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 2: a burnt out shell when it was found. 319 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: And this is in Mexico. 320 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 2: Ur in the air, and this is in Mexico. Of course, 321 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: no connections were made at that point of who this 322 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: guy was. I think people in the horse racing drug 323 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: world knew exactly what had happened, but nobody else did 324 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 2: at that point. It was later that the FBI made 325 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 2: the connections and other agencies that were working on the 326 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 2: case about what had happened to Ramito. 327 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: Now they've moved on with Jose. How does this grow? 328 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: Is this a top ten percent? 329 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 4: Oh? 330 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely top ten percent. They're showing up to these auctions 331 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: at Heritage Place and they're running the auction prices through 332 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 2: the roof. The normal quarter horse folks who have been 333 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 2: around forever cannot afford to bid because if a horse 334 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: comes that they want, they'll pay over the asking price. 335 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 3: They'll pay whatever it takes to get it. So they're 336 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 3: just inflating all. 337 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 2: The prices for horses and they're having a big impact 338 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 2: on the racing. So Jose is really attracting the attention 339 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 2: of the longtime quarter horse trainers and everyone else in 340 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: the industry, like. 341 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 3: Who is this guy? 342 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: I think people kind of knew what was going on, 343 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 2: but they didn't ask questions. No kidding, they did not 344 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: want to get involved. 345 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, of course, I grew up around horses, specifically 346 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: around quarter horses, it's such a tight knit community and 347 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: to have these new players come on the scene, I'm 348 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: sure was incredibly intimidated. I would guess to Americans. 349 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, and Mexicans too, or you know, anybody legitimate, 350 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: the Brazilians, anybody legitimately in the business. And at the 351 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 2: same time they're injecting this much, much needed money into 352 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: the industry. It's a hard calculus. They're kind of saving 353 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 2: the industry by bringing all this money, but then they're 354 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 2: also killing the industry as well by driving up these 355 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 2: inflated prices and then threatening trainers and making people feel afraid, 356 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 2: and also cheating and doping the horses and doing everything else. 357 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 2: So they're simultaneously invigorating it and killing it. At the 358 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 2: same time. 359 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: They are still i'm assuming, issuing the same intimidation tactics 360 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: dead bodies in Mexico. Does that happen in Laredo or 361 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: anywhere else in the United States with this particular group, 362 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: or do those sort of displays for the public really 363 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: are they centered on Mexico. 364 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 3: They're centered on Mexico. 365 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 2: I mean, the way that they can do this in 366 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 2: Mexico it is because the local law enforcement and the 367 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: military to some extent are also corrupted and have made 368 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 2: agreements with different factions of the cartels. So there's this 369 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: total impunity where ninety eight percent of murders are not 370 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 2: investigated in Mexico. So you can literally get away with 371 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: murder and other crimes and you just pay off the 372 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 2: right person and you're scott free. So they can get 373 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: away with these really macabre displays and subjugating whole swaths 374 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 2: of territory to their control because the police work for them, 375 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: and to some extent, the military as well, whereas in 376 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 2: the US side, they still enforce the laws most of 377 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 2: the time, so they could not get away with something 378 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: in the United States like they could in Mexico. These 379 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 2: decapitations leaving piles of bodies in the middle of a 380 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 2: busy highway, incinerating cars and incinerating cars the way that 381 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: it would happen in the United States, as they would 382 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 2: kidnap somebody and take them back to Mexico and then 383 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: they would kill them, okay, or they would wait for 384 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: that person to go to Mexico. 385 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: And then they would get them there. 386 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 3: A lot of people disappear, so. 387 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: You have to assume with these three brothers that at 388 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: some point somebody is going to catch wind of this 389 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: with some authority in the United States. When has this 390 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: become alarming to someone who will actually do something. 391 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 2: So we have different federal agencies that have different parts 392 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 2: of this case. You have the DEA who has following 393 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 2: Ramiro Villa Real, you have I think HSI, which is 394 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: Homeland Security Investigations has a little bit of it, and 395 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 2: then the FBI comes into the picture. They come to 396 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 2: the case through Tyler Graham, who is from a fairly 397 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: wealthy family, longtime quarter horse family. His grandfather, Dot Graham, 398 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 2: is part owner of Heritage Place in Oklahoma City. He's 399 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 2: a big figure in court horse racing and ranching in general, 400 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 2: and so Tyler has been anointed in the family to 401 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: take over in Doc Graham's footsteps. Tyler and Scott Lawson, 402 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: the agent that I follow, who's a young guy like Tyler. 403 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: You know, he's thirty years old, big blonde guy in 404 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: cowboy boots from Tennessee, from the country. So he had 405 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: Tyler kind of click because I have similar backgrounds, and 406 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 2: so he enters the case through Tyler, and Tyler's becomes 407 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: his informant there's this horse called Tempting Dash that makes 408 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: a big splash on the racetrack and wins a lot 409 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: of money. And this horse becomes Jose's ticket to the 410 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: top of court a horse racing. He has a multimillion 411 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 2: dollar winning horse that he can breed and make tons 412 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 2: of money off of. And Tyler Graham's business is horse 413 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: breeding because that's where the money is. 414 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 3: So Tyler really really. 415 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 2: Wants to breed this horse, Tempting Dash, and that's how 416 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 2: he gets close to Jose and how they sort of 417 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 2: start working together. Everyone says he really had no idea 418 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: what he was getting into, but before much time had passed, 419 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: he was in pretty deep. And that's when Scott Lawson 420 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 2: approached him and said, you can either go to jail 421 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 2: or you can start working for me as an informant 422 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 2: for the FBI. 423 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, for the FBI. 424 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 2: And this is a young guy in his late twenties 425 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 2: who's now being asked to become an informant against like 426 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 2: the most vicious, scariest drug cartel in Mexico. 427 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: He had to have thought about that for a little bit. 428 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 3: I'm assuming, Oh, yes, I'm sure he did. 429 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,239 Speaker 1: If he went to jail, he probably wouldn't have been 430 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: safe there either. 431 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. So he agrees to work 432 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 2: with Scott and Alma as an form it. 433 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: And Alma is his Scott's partner. Is that right? 434 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, Alma Pettis is Scott's partner. And I use a 435 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: pseudonym for her in the book. That's not her real 436 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: name because she lives in Laredo, still has a big 437 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: family and has family members in Mexico as well, so 438 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 2: she did not want to use her real name in 439 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 2: the book. But yeah, she's a total kick ass agent 440 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 2: and I was really thrilled to have a Latina kick 441 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 2: ass agent. You know, is one of the main characters 442 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 2: in the book. 443 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: She must have really trusted you to be able to 444 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: tell this story. 445 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it can't be easy. I mean we had 446 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 2: a lot of conversations. 447 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 3: Took a couple of. 448 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: Years, a couple of years well. 449 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: Of talking and writing, and so I was lucky that 450 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 2: they let me spend as much time as I did. 451 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: And Scott must have had some feeling of intimidation also 452 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: going into this Is this a world he had been 453 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: in before? 454 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: It wasn't at all, which is why he really needed Alma. 455 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 2: Because Alma speaks Spanish, she understands border culture. 456 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 3: He's a real f fish out of water, you know. 457 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 2: He's a country boy, come from Tennessee and is just 458 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 2: in over his head basically. 459 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 3: So she really. 460 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 2: Helps him out in terms of context and history and 461 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 2: figuring out what's going on. 462 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: So you've got Scott and Alma have teamed up and 463 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: they have Tyler as an informant. At this point, I 464 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: can't imagine that would have gone over well with other agencies. 465 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: They didn't know at first about Tyler. They had Ramudo, 466 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 2: but then Ramudo got killed. Their case is kind of 467 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 2: gran to a halt, and then Scott and Alma wanted 468 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 2: to hold on to Tyler and not have the Dea 469 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 2: take him away or convince him to come to them. 470 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: Right, So they came to an agreement where the agencies 471 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: would be able to work together to not hinder the case. 472 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 3: Right. 473 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 1: So Tyler continues doing business with Jose and the other 474 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: two brothers. What was this whole situation Like. 475 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 2: Well, Miguel and Omar at that point are in Mexico. 476 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: They're not coming into the United States anymore because there's 477 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: so much heat on them. At that point, you're hearing 478 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: that there was a sighting of Omar in California, or 479 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 2: they saw me again in Dallas, like the Boogeyman. You know, 480 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 2: they're like I saw him. So everybody's looking for them, 481 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 2: so they're not stepping foot into the United States. 482 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 3: So it's just. 483 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 2: Jose and then various money couriers and trainers and people 484 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 2: like that that are working for Miguel and Omar in 485 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: the United States. 486 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 3: So Tyler's working with Jose. 487 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: Did you get the impression that Jose had that same 488 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: type of bizarre bloodlust that his other two brothers have, 489 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: or he is a little bit more of the brains 490 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: in that way of the operation. 491 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 2: I don't think he was as sanguinary as they were. 492 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: Probably a little bit more low key, but definitely the 493 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 2: chip on the shoulder and the you know, this is 494 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 2: our chance, this is our one chance to grab that 495 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 2: dream and to make it and to have something for 496 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 2: our family. 497 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: Is that a sense of entitlement or is it something else? 498 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 2: Maybe just a feeling that all the cards are stacked 499 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 2: against you, so you're going to do whatever it takes, 500 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 2: and just a willing to walk over apoll of dead 501 00:26:59,119 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 2: bodies to. 502 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: Get tell me what the exchange of information is like 503 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: between Jose and Tyler and then Tyler with the two 504 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: agents Scott and all mats, what kind of data are 505 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: they collecting. 506 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: I mean, Tyler's just going on about his business with 507 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 2: Jose and breeding horses, going to the races, and just 508 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 2: doing as he would do under normal circumstances. But he 509 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 2: is collecting information about their operation and about Jose, and 510 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 2: he's meeting secretly with Scott in different places. Scott and 511 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 2: other agents are keeping eyes on Tyler and on Jose 512 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 2: at the race tracks in the United States. They're doing surveillance. 513 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 2: But the really hard part is what Steve Pennington and 514 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 2: his group are doing with the Treasury Task Force, because 515 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 2: what they need to do to prosecute Jose and his 516 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 2: brothers is to prove the connection between the drug cartel 517 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 2: money and the purchase of all these horses. 518 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: So is that the money laundering part. 519 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 2: The money laundering part, And that's the hard part because 520 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: they have to have evidence of the entire money trail 521 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 2: from Mexico into the United States. So they're requesting bank 522 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 2: documents and things from banks in Mexico and they're getting nothing. Well, yeah, 523 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 2: they're not getting anything out of Mexico. 524 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 1: They know what their clients are doing. They're not going 525 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: to turn over I mean, gosh. 526 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: So the hard part then is they have to find 527 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 2: these accountants and these money people that work for the 528 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 2: brothers and get them to churn evidence. 529 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: How many deaths do you think have been linked that 530 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: we know of to these three brothers, Oh, thousands and thousands, 531 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: So thousands of murders, right, and yet what they can't 532 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: get them on those, they have to get them on finances. 533 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: That seems incredible to me. But I know we're talking 534 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: about kidnapping in the United States and deaths in Mexico, 535 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: and that's the issue, right. 536 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, the murders are happening in Mexico, so there's 537 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: really nothing the US authorities can do about that. 538 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: Incredible to me. Okay, so Tyler is nervous the whole time. 539 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: I can I can't imagine he wouldn't be. 540 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: People that I've talked to that know him say that 541 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: he aged immeasurably. Oh yeah, I mean, who's a thirty 542 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 2: year old guy who looks ten years older. 543 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 4: Wow. 544 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 2: I think it also broke up his family. There was 545 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: a lot of collateral damage that happened after the fact, 546 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: but during the investigation. He was just kind of unflappable, 547 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: which is just amazing to me. 548 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: What do you think his motivation was? I mean, I know, 549 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: no jail, he didn't want to be in prison, But 550 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: was there within Tyler, you think some sort of internal 551 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: morality that he felt like, you know, this really is 552 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: the right thing, or do you think this was really 553 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: self preservation? 554 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 2: Well? 555 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 3: I think it was a little of both. 556 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: There must have been a feeling of like, this is 557 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 2: an industry that my family has been involved in for generation, 558 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: and if you guys think you're going to come in 559 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 2: here and do this and jack up all the prices 560 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 2: and threaten everybody, I mean, there was probably some of that, 561 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 2: like this is our industry and you're not going to 562 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: run us out of here or make us feel afraid. 563 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 2: And then I think it was also self preserv as well, 564 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 2: and not wanting to go to jail. And in the 565 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 2: end he did get one of the offspring of Tempting Dash, 566 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 2: which did win some million dollar races, So he ended 567 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 2: up getting in the end what he wanted. 568 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: Huh, do we know if the Travinos had him under surveillance, Tyler. 569 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 2: There was a time when Jose started distancing himself from Tyler. 570 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,959 Speaker 2: So it does seem like Jose was getting paranoid and 571 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 2: he was sort of walling himself off from Tyler, which 572 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: was really creating a panic for the agents. Oh yeah, 573 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: because Tyler was their way into the organization and Jose 574 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 2: was sort of starting to drift away from him. 575 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: How long is this investigation? I've been meaning to ask you. 576 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 3: That couple of years? Wow, Yeah, it took a while. 577 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: When is enough enough for the FBI? When do they 578 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: say Tyler's giving us enough information? And when does Scott 579 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: and Almot go to the superiors and say this is 580 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: I think we're ready for this. 581 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's coming around the time of when 582 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: Jose is sort of separating himself from Tyler and getting 583 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: paranoid about Tyler. And then Jose is buying his own 584 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 2: ranch in Oklahoma and starting his own breeding. 585 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,719 Speaker 1: Operation so he doesn't need Tyler. 586 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's amassing all these horses, he's got all this money, 587 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 2: he's bought a ranch, he's expanding the ranch. 588 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: Tell me about the arrests. How that all happened with 589 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: these three guys. 590 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 2: The arrest for Jose was pretty crazy because it was 591 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 2: like a convoy of federal agents that started off. They 592 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 2: met at the Armory in Oklahoma City and they drove 593 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 2: from the outskirts of Oklahoma City to you know, this 594 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 2: rural horse ranch where Jose was with his family, and 595 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 2: they also had aerial surveillance. But it was like an 596 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 2: incredible show of force, you know. Yeah, honestly it was 597 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 2: a little overboard, I think, but they didn't know what 598 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: they were facing. 599 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: Bodyguards and all kinds of stuff. 600 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 2: I think Jose kept things pretty low key, but he 601 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 2: did have guys watching the perimeter, and the neighbors would 602 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 2: complain he'd keep these bright lights on all night because 603 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 2: he were kind of keeping an eye on the perimeter. So, 604 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: you know, they didn't know what they were going to 605 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 2: find there. And Miguel and Omar have such a bloody 606 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: reputation that they didn't want to take any chances. 607 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: How did Mexico go the rests in Mexico. 608 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 2: Well, Miguel and Omar went free for another year or so, 609 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 2: so they didn't get caught. Eventually, Miguel was caught on 610 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 2: his way back from Laredo, having just seen his wife 611 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: who just had a baby, and so he was caught 612 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: on a dirt road on his way back from the 613 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 2: border by the military who came over him in a 614 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 2: helicopter and sort of parked in front of his vehicle 615 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 2: and blocked him off and surrounded him. Wow Omar was 616 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: picked up in a wealthy home in one of the 617 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 2: richest neighborhoods in Latin America in Monterrey, Mexico and Northern Mexico, 618 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 2: and he was there with his kids and his wife, 619 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 2: and he was taken into custody. So they're both still 620 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 2: in prison in Mexico, and Jose is in jail in 621 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 2: the United States. 622 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming that Miguel and Omar and Mexico are 623 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: in a much better position than Jose is in the 624 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: United States. Diametrically opposite experience. As it sounds like. 625 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you have money and you're in 626 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 2: jail in Mexico, you can still run operations, money talks. 627 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: You can get all kinds of things, cabrito. 628 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: Animals for your children, yeah. 629 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 2: Dance parties, whatever you want if you have the money. 630 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: What happened in Mexico to have them arrested. 631 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: You know, that's a good question. In the book, I 632 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 2: go into this history of how the Mexican government has 633 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 2: sort of handled drug trafficking in the country. It's the 634 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 2: spax mafiosi. They have made arrangements and carved up the 635 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 2: territories where these cartels can smuggle in their areas as 636 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 2: long as I keep the violence under wraps. And the 637 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 2: Zetta's really accelerated the complete total volatility in Mexico and 638 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 2: the violence, and they really created a lot of chaos, 639 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 2: and increasingly I think Miguel and Omar became very isolated 640 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 2: from anyone powerful who would want to back them or 641 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: help them in politics or in the crime world. 642 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 3: I think that they allowed them to be caught. 643 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: They were just too violent in this crime world. 644 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like they were too chaotic for the 645 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 2: system to handle. I think the way it usually happens 646 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 2: in Mexico is if you're just too out of control, 647 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: too violent, too chaotic, eventually you find yourself very isolated 648 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 2: and the powers that be allow you to be caught 649 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 2: and your numbers up. 650 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: Where they were operating in Nuevo Loretto. When we talk 651 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,760 Speaker 1: about the victims and survivors, just of the normal people 652 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: living in this area, what was life like for them 653 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: with these drug cartels is this constantly in fear, were 654 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: their rules about what you couldn't places you couldn't go. 655 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: Just the average person. 656 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 2: It's absolutely horrible because your life is governed by the 657 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 2: whims of these like hyper violent, unstable, chaotic, unstable gangsters. Yeah, 658 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 2: and the journalists that I knew there. The newspapers were 659 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 2: all subjugated and censored and threatened, and journalists have been 660 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: killed and newspaper editors kidnapped and killed. And as a 661 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 2: journalist in those areas in Mexico, you're not allowed to 662 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 2: print anything without their permission, and they actually have cartel 663 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 2: operatives working sometimes in the newsrooms who will let you 664 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 2: know what is permitted or not permitted to be printed. 665 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 2: So there's almost total censorship, and the police work for them. 666 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 2: There's no crime solved, there's total impunity. So you're really 667 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 2: at the whims of these hyper violent guys who are 668 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 2: completely unpredictable. So it's a total nightmare. 669 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,280 Speaker 1: Why would you write this book if that's the case. 670 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm serious, why would you put yourself at 671 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: any kind of risk? 672 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 2: Well, I really love Mexico, covering that region, it was 673 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 2: so incredibly heartbreaking for me to see it sort of 674 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 2: dissolve into this chaotic violence and to try to understand 675 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 2: why that was happening. I know journalists on both sides 676 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: of the board that we're trying to figure it out, 677 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 2: like how do we explain what's happening, what is going 678 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 2: on here? How do you put it into words, especially 679 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,879 Speaker 2: when there's no official type of information. Journalists are being 680 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: censored in Mexico, so it's really hard to get information 681 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 2: as to what's happening. 682 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: No reliable sources, really no. 683 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 2: And everybody's afraid and everybody's threatened, and nobody can really 684 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 2: say what's happening. At the same time, you're hearing rumors 685 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 2: and things about this guy Miguel he was like a monster. 686 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well it's like you said, it's like the Boogeyman. 687 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: A mythical monster. When Jose was actually brought to court, 688 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 2: there was very little information about the Zetas. We just 689 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 2: knew them as this sort of monstrous organization that had 690 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 2: really changed the game in the drug war for the worst. 691 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 2: I mean, it was so bad that I as a reporter, 692 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 2: had to really think twice and take a lot of 693 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 2: security precautions to even go into Mexico, which was completely 694 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 2: new for me. It was like having a war correspondent position. 695 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 2: All of a sudden, when I was a domestic reporter, 696 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 2: Suddenly I was having to take these like you know, 697 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 2: what happens if I get kidnapped, or what happens if 698 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 2: there's a gun battle. So it was just this completely crazy, 699 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 2: upside down world. And so when this case came to court, 700 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 2: I thought, this is a way to understand how these 701 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 2: guys came about what's going on in Mexico. That was 702 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 2: really my motivation for doing it was to understand this 703 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 2: pivotal moment in Mexican and US history. A lot of 704 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 2: the cartel leadership was brought in to testify during the trial. 705 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 2: If you're ever gonna learn anything from this guys, that 706 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 2: was it. It was the only time. So it was 707 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 2: a real learning experience and an eye opener. 708 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: Did you have some dicey moments when you were in 709 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 1: Mexico that you found like you were feeling threatened? 710 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 3: Oh? 711 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I went to a clandesigine race in 712 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 2: Durango in the middle of nowhere because I wanted to 713 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: see what these races were like in Mexico. And then 714 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 2: some soldiers showed up with some big guns and it 715 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 2: felt pretty dicey, and then someone told me there that 716 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 2: there had been gun battles before and not to worry. 717 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,919 Speaker 2: You just get down on the ground and bullets won't 718 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:22,399 Speaker 2: hit you. 719 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: It's that kind of thing, practical advice. Where did the 720 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: Zetas stand now in Mexico? Are there still there? Are 721 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: they still being run by the Travinos. 722 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 2: They're still there, but they've really splintered off and they're 723 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 2: a much smaller faction now and they're still sort of 724 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 2: centered around Neuva Laredo, and they're run by relatives of 725 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 2: the Travino family. It's a very prolific family. There's a 726 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 2: lot of relatives, a lot of cousins, so they're still involved. 727 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 2: I don't know how much Miguel and Omar involved in 728 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 2: all that, but they've probably still involved. They're both still 729 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 2: in jail in Mexico, so I'm sure they probably have 730 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 2: some hand or say in how that operates down there. 731 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 2: There's just so much money, and until that money goes away, 732 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 2: or until they crack down on it and force people 733 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 2: to stop, they're just not going to and they're just 734 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 2: going to keep fighting it out till the death. 735 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: And it's just the people in these towns who have 736 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: nothing to do with any of this, who end up suffering. 737 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just a hell for especially people in these 738 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 2: small and rural towns. They feel abandoned by the government 739 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 2: and subjugated to the whims of these like hyperviolent thugs, 740 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 2: and that's all they can do is just try to 741 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 2: stay alive. 742 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 4: On the next episode of Wicked Words, I think he 743 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 4: was dangerous and some girls knew it, and they caught on. 744 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 4: They smelled it. They weren't given the power to be 745 00:39:46,560 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 4: heard about it. When Gary was mad, it was scary. 746 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 747 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the year this has 748 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold More Media Production Alexis and 749 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Eapan is our sound designer. 750 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: Ella Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does 751 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink 752 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: design the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff, 753 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook 754 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More. 755 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 1: If you are an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, 756 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: go to midroll dot com slash ads, and if you 757 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use 758 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email 759 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe, and 760 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever 761 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.