WEBVTT - Glennon Doyle on How to Be Broken 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:24.276 Pushkin Heysite Changers. I have exciting news. I've written a book. 0:00:24.796 --> 0:00:27.756 It's called The Other Side of Change, Who we become 0:00:28.036 --> 0:00:31.916 when life makes other plans. It's available for pre order 0:00:32.036 --> 0:00:36.316 now at changewithmya dot com slash book. It's not coming 0:00:36.316 --> 0:00:39.436 out for a while, but preorders make a huge difference. 0:00:39.996 --> 0:00:42.996 They send a powerful signal to booksellers that this book 0:00:43.116 --> 0:00:46.276 matters to you. I would be so grateful for your 0:00:46.316 --> 0:00:49.476 early support. It's truly the thing I'm most proud to 0:00:49.556 --> 0:00:52.476 have created. You can find the link to pre order 0:00:52.676 --> 0:00:55.796 in our episode description. Thanks so much, and now on 0:00:55.836 --> 0:01:07.076 to the show. 0:01:07.116 --> 0:01:11.276 Many times in my life, I've had moments where I'm like. 0:01:11.836 --> 0:01:13.716 Oh, I can't do this for one more second. 0:01:13.996 --> 0:01:17.716 Like whether it's my old marriage or my work life, 0:01:17.756 --> 0:01:21.436 I can fake it for only so long, and then 0:01:21.436 --> 0:01:23.316 I have a moment where I'm like, oh, I'm out 0:01:23.356 --> 0:01:23.676 of here. 0:01:24.756 --> 0:01:27.676 Glennon Doyle is a best selling author and a host 0:01:27.716 --> 0:01:31.916 of the podcast We Can Do Hard Things. Over the years, 0:01:31.956 --> 0:01:35.236 she's learned to pay close attention to those signals that 0:01:35.396 --> 0:01:39.596 something is wrong, and rather than ignore them, she's chosen 0:01:39.676 --> 0:01:40.156 to listen. 0:01:40.716 --> 0:01:42.556 I've wondered for so long why I always feel like 0:01:42.596 --> 0:01:47.196 I need to change my hair, my clothes, everything, And 0:01:47.316 --> 0:01:50.196 it's because the problem is that I am still here. 0:01:51.916 --> 0:01:55.076 Wherever I go there, I am like that is the problem. 0:01:55.436 --> 0:01:58.596 So it really becomes a matter of figuring out how 0:01:58.636 --> 0:02:00.396 to be at peace in my body. 0:02:04.516 --> 0:02:07.916 On today's show, Glennon Doyle is still trying to figure 0:02:07.956 --> 0:02:13.236 out where she belongs. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who 0:02:13.316 --> 0:02:16.876 studies human behavior. And this is a slight change of plans, 0:02:17.156 --> 0:02:19.476 a show about who we are and who we become 0:02:19.876 --> 0:02:31.196 in the face of a big change. Who am I really? 0:02:31.636 --> 0:02:34.196 Where do I belong? And how do I figure out 0:02:34.276 --> 0:02:37.596 what I want? These are some of the big, messy 0:02:37.676 --> 0:02:41.676 questions Glennon has been grappling with for years. She's the 0:02:41.716 --> 0:02:45.436 author of the New York Times number one bestsellers Untamed 0:02:45.636 --> 0:02:49.916 and Love Warrior. She's been incredibly open about her struggles 0:02:49.956 --> 0:02:53.916 with addiction, motherhood, and marriage, and in her new book 0:02:54.076 --> 0:02:57.156 We Can Do Hard Things, she shares the wisdom she's 0:02:57.196 --> 0:03:01.196 gained along the way. As we began our conversation, Glennon 0:03:01.276 --> 0:03:03.756 told me that for as long as she can remember, 0:03:04.236 --> 0:03:06.116 she's felt that something was off. 0:03:07.076 --> 0:03:09.196 I felt like there was something deeply wrong with me. 0:03:11.356 --> 0:03:13.556 I did not know exactly what it was. I don't 0:03:13.556 --> 0:03:15.156 think that I would have been able to put it 0:03:15.196 --> 0:03:19.116 into words. I think my only real safe places were reading. 0:03:19.956 --> 0:03:26.316 I read like Ramona Quimby, Yes with Beverly Cleary, and 0:03:26.356 --> 0:03:29.076 I would read the same books over and over again 0:03:29.156 --> 0:03:31.236 because I always wanted to know what happened. 0:03:31.396 --> 0:03:32.956 I didn't want a new experience. 0:03:33.476 --> 0:03:36.116 Life was so unpredictable that I loved the idea of 0:03:36.156 --> 0:03:38.196 I'm entering this world, I know what's going to happen, 0:03:38.236 --> 0:03:39.276 I know how it's going to end. 0:03:39.756 --> 0:03:41.716 I went to school like a normal kid. 0:03:41.756 --> 0:03:44.876 I just I always felt very exposed, like I just 0:03:44.996 --> 0:03:48.316 remember thinking, and I still think this. I think it's 0:03:48.356 --> 0:03:50.876 so weird how we just have to walk around in 0:03:50.916 --> 0:03:53.436 the public and people can just look at us anytime 0:03:53.476 --> 0:03:54.476 they want, Like, that's so. 0:03:54.716 --> 0:03:55.956 Weird and vulnerable. 0:03:57.236 --> 0:03:59.596 I would come home and I felt like I was 0:03:59.676 --> 0:04:02.756 kind of holding my breath all day, just making it 0:04:02.836 --> 0:04:09.516 through social exposure. And then I became really severely Believe me, 0:04:09.756 --> 0:04:12.716 by the time I was ten years old and my 0:04:13.196 --> 0:04:17.556 entire life was bolimia. I couldn't wait until three pm 0:04:17.596 --> 0:04:20.596 because I would get home starting an elementary school, through 0:04:20.636 --> 0:04:25.036 middle school, through high school actually, and then through college, 0:04:25.196 --> 0:04:28.236 and then I would just binge, like it was like 0:04:28.276 --> 0:04:31.076 I was holding my breath all day. I'd get home 0:04:31.116 --> 0:04:33.516 my parents were both teachers, so they wouldn't be home yet, 0:04:34.276 --> 0:04:36.596 and I would just it was like I could finally 0:04:36.716 --> 0:04:42.876 relax or let go, and relaxing or letting go was 0:04:42.916 --> 0:04:49.076 a very private experience of just binging food by myself, 0:04:50.076 --> 0:04:55.876 and then I would throw it all up, and I 0:04:55.956 --> 0:04:59.276 think that moment of being laid out on the bathroom 0:04:59.356 --> 0:05:04.316 floor after getting it all out was what I equated 0:05:04.436 --> 0:05:10.036 as relief finally, And that was my experience life every 0:05:10.316 --> 0:05:11.556 single day. 0:05:12.396 --> 0:05:15.396 What do you think Lennon led you to fear self 0:05:15.396 --> 0:05:17.436 exposure to the extent you did. 0:05:18.596 --> 0:05:23.276 I think that I lived in a household that had 0:05:23.316 --> 0:05:27.436 a lot of love in it and was deeply well intentioned, 0:05:29.356 --> 0:05:38.636 but there was no absolutely no room to be human, zero, 0:05:38.836 --> 0:05:43.756 Like it was extremely rigid. There was a ton of 0:05:43.996 --> 0:05:49.756 control and anxiety that controlled every moment, to the point 0:05:49.796 --> 0:05:52.956 where I very much remember as a child just desperately 0:05:52.996 --> 0:05:57.356 trying to control my facial expression when I looked at 0:05:57.356 --> 0:06:01.156 my parents so I didn't freak anybody out if I 0:06:01.196 --> 0:06:04.956 gave the wrong facial expression, it would set my father off. Okay, 0:06:05.596 --> 0:06:08.556 so I would have told you that I was broken 0:06:08.836 --> 0:06:11.476 and crazy, and I would have had no idea why. 0:06:12.796 --> 0:06:14.836 Yeah, I mean, you're making me reflect back on my 0:06:14.876 --> 0:06:18.596 own childhood, where I was one of very few kids 0:06:18.596 --> 0:06:23.076 of color to be at my school, and even though 0:06:23.076 --> 0:06:25.876 I knew I looked different from all the other kids, 0:06:26.156 --> 0:06:30.516 I saw their cruelty as evidence that I was deeply 0:06:30.556 --> 0:06:33.876 flawed in some way, And so I fully resonate with 0:06:33.916 --> 0:06:37.036 your experience. Now, of course, the behavioral manifestations of it 0:06:37.076 --> 0:06:39.436 were very different for both of us. But you talked 0:06:39.436 --> 0:06:44.076 about feeling relief on the bathroom floor, right, What constituted 0:06:44.076 --> 0:06:46.676 that relief? What were you escaping from or what was 0:06:46.676 --> 0:06:49.156 giving rise to that feeling in your body or your mind? 0:06:50.156 --> 0:06:55.876 Being very small and controlled and disciplined and pretty and 0:06:56.036 --> 0:07:00.796 tiny was extremely important in my family. The binge in 0:07:00.876 --> 0:07:04.356 the purge was almost like an animalistic indulgence of. 0:07:06.716 --> 0:07:07.076 Rage. 0:07:08.716 --> 0:07:12.156 I think bulimia is a way of being like a 0:07:12.196 --> 0:07:14.236 bad girl and a good girl at the same time, 0:07:14.876 --> 0:07:18.596 because you're like, fuck it, I am all the things, 0:07:18.636 --> 0:07:22.356 I am doing this, But then your conditioning is like, 0:07:22.476 --> 0:07:24.316 but I have to stay small, but I can't like 0:07:24.356 --> 0:07:28.036 show any evidence of this rebellion. 0:07:27.756 --> 0:07:33.716 Highly contained rebellion. Yes, yeah, yeah, Wow, that is so interesting. 0:07:34.356 --> 0:07:39.756 Did you ever feel comfortable expressing to them or was 0:07:39.796 --> 0:07:41.796 that wrapped up in the space of stuff that was 0:07:41.836 --> 0:07:45.116 just unacceptable to talk about In the Doyle family. 0:07:45.556 --> 0:07:49.076 I mean, my parents were like most parents in that 0:07:50.756 --> 0:07:54.316 they had so much trauma from their childhoods and they 0:07:54.316 --> 0:07:58.116 were doing so much better than their parents did, and 0:07:58.156 --> 0:08:01.116 their one thing was we want to be good parent 0:08:01.236 --> 0:08:03.556 like you. You could feel it, and everything they said 0:08:03.636 --> 0:08:06.636 or did they all the control that fucked me up 0:08:06.676 --> 0:08:10.716 big time, was like they're desperate to be good parents. 0:08:10.756 --> 0:08:14.316 So I think I always had this feeling that I 0:08:14.396 --> 0:08:18.156 can't break them. I feel very nervous that I'm saying 0:08:18.196 --> 0:08:20.876 these things because it feels like breaking a family rule 0:08:21.076 --> 0:08:24.236 or saying these things would hurt them in a way. 0:08:25.076 --> 0:08:27.636 It does, it does hit them, but it hurts me 0:08:27.716 --> 0:08:30.236 more to not say it, So I'm saying it anyway. 0:08:30.916 --> 0:08:33.276 But I would never have had the language when I 0:08:33.316 --> 0:08:35.276 was little. I just felt like I have to hide 0:08:35.276 --> 0:08:37.436 this thing this. How could I even put into words 0:08:37.476 --> 0:08:39.756 what I do after school in our house? It's so 0:08:40.836 --> 0:08:42.076 it felt so shameful. 0:08:43.476 --> 0:08:45.876 Tell me more, Glennon, about that moment when you go 0:08:45.916 --> 0:08:48.196 to that total stranger at school and you say, like, 0:08:48.916 --> 0:08:51.556 someone needs to take me away. I can't do this, 0:08:51.676 --> 0:08:52.476 I can't be here. 0:08:53.556 --> 0:08:56.036 I think it was my senior year in high school. 0:08:57.356 --> 0:09:03.196 I remember walking into the school cafeteria. I mean, maya, 0:09:03.276 --> 0:09:06.676 I could start Just saying the words makes me start sweating, 0:09:06.796 --> 0:09:09.476 like wow, it just is the ultimate to me Lord 0:09:09.476 --> 0:09:11.996 of the Flyes situation, Like I didn't know where to 0:09:12.036 --> 0:09:15.076 put my body. I didn't know to whom I belonged, 0:09:15.516 --> 0:09:17.996 what table do I sit at? Who wants me at 0:09:17.996 --> 0:09:21.236 their table? Eating in front of people was the most 0:09:21.316 --> 0:09:22.516 vulnerable thing in the world. 0:09:22.756 --> 0:09:23.516 I just couldn't. 0:09:23.556 --> 0:09:25.516 I had a moment where I remember standing with my 0:09:25.636 --> 0:09:30.116 tray and I just walked out of the cafeteria, walked 0:09:30.156 --> 0:09:32.916 straight into a guidance counselor's office who I didn't know, 0:09:33.956 --> 0:09:37.156 sat down and said, I need somebody to take me away. 0:09:38.036 --> 0:09:41.156 I'm not leaving this office until somebody takes me away. 0:09:42.396 --> 0:09:46.356 I have flashes of sitting in the guidance counselor's office, 0:09:46.556 --> 0:09:49.076 and then I have flashes of my parents coming in, 0:09:49.436 --> 0:09:55.356 and then I remember some kerfluffle and that kerfluffle. 0:09:55.756 --> 0:09:59.676 Kerfuffle, whatever that word is. You know what, I like, kerfluffle. 0:09:59.956 --> 0:10:02.436 We're gonna go with that. Yeah, that's great. 0:10:02.556 --> 0:10:05.316 It's a joke in our family that I have always 0:10:05.316 --> 0:10:07.756 read more than I've talked to humans, so I often 0:10:07.836 --> 0:10:10.156 say words wrong because I've read them for so long, 0:10:10.156 --> 0:10:15.236 but not hurt them. So anyway, Then I remember like 0:10:15.316 --> 0:10:21.436 a very cold hallway which was walking into the hospital. 0:10:22.276 --> 0:10:23.836 What was really a mental hospital. 0:10:23.916 --> 0:10:27.356 Now we have so many other options, but for like 0:10:27.436 --> 0:10:30.836 my family's insurance and my situation back then, it was 0:10:30.876 --> 0:10:34.316 really just kind of a mental hospital. I remember sitting 0:10:34.356 --> 0:10:37.676 with whoever was like the intake nurse and my parents 0:10:37.716 --> 0:10:41.156 there and them taking all my stuff, like looking through 0:10:41.156 --> 0:10:43.396 my bags and taking away anything that could hurt me, 0:10:44.836 --> 0:10:51.836 which I bodily remember feeling reallye fat, like finally somebody's 0:10:51.916 --> 0:10:55.596 taking my power to hurt myself away from me, Like 0:10:55.636 --> 0:10:56.396 that's what I wanted. 0:10:56.916 --> 0:11:02.236 Wow, what was it about that moment on that school 0:11:02.316 --> 0:11:06.756 day that led you to go to the school's office. 0:11:06.756 --> 0:11:08.716 I mean there were probably so many other days where 0:11:08.716 --> 0:11:11.076 you felt spare. You've been battling this for years and 0:11:11.156 --> 0:11:15.876 years and years, So what was the catalyst for you 0:11:15.956 --> 0:11:17.596 to say or right, enough is enough. 0:11:18.876 --> 0:11:21.396 I think that that is a gift that I have. 0:11:22.236 --> 0:11:26.556 I think that I break every once in a while, 0:11:28.316 --> 0:11:32.836 and I think that the people in my life who 0:11:32.876 --> 0:11:39.796 never break have harder lives. Like I am a little 0:11:39.876 --> 0:11:43.876 bit like, uh, you know the circuit breakers that like 0:11:43.956 --> 0:11:46.196 if you things start to go out and then you 0:11:46.196 --> 0:11:49.916 can like flip the circuit breaker and stop everything. I 0:11:49.956 --> 0:11:51.836 feel like I'm a bit of a circuit breaker. 0:11:52.076 --> 0:11:57.036 Satisfying, by the way, so satisfying, yeah, small, Plus I 0:11:57.076 --> 0:11:57.396 have no. 0:11:57.356 --> 0:11:58.396 Idea why this works. 0:11:58.436 --> 0:12:00.356 I have no idea how this works, but it's so 0:12:00.556 --> 0:12:05.956 fun that these buttons are gonna work. So I feel 0:12:05.956 --> 0:12:08.076 like I do just break every once in a while. 0:12:08.956 --> 0:12:12.436 I think we live in a world that breaks you, Like, 0:12:13.116 --> 0:12:16.396 I don't think that it's all a personal problem. I 0:12:16.436 --> 0:12:19.756 think that there is stuff happening in our lives and 0:12:19.796 --> 0:12:23.396 culture and country and world and families that should break us. 0:12:23.476 --> 0:12:28.796 And many times in my life I've had moments like 0:12:28.876 --> 0:12:32.436 that in the cafeteria where I'm like, oh, I can't 0:12:32.436 --> 0:12:35.396 do this for one more second, Like whether it's my 0:12:35.476 --> 0:12:40.316 old marriage or my work life, or there's just something 0:12:40.316 --> 0:12:43.716 builds up in me I can fake it for only 0:12:43.756 --> 0:12:47.556 so long, and then I have a moment where I'm like, oh, 0:12:47.596 --> 0:12:50.796 I'm out of here. I won't spend another moment in 0:12:50.836 --> 0:12:53.196 this cafeteria, in this high school, in this marriage, in 0:12:53.236 --> 0:12:57.436 this life, and then just I need help. It's like 0:12:57.476 --> 0:13:01.916 and I need help moment. Yeah, And then that usually 0:13:01.996 --> 0:13:03.876 kind of saves me for a little while, and then 0:13:03.876 --> 0:13:07.356 I get lost again. But I have circuit breaker moments 0:13:07.476 --> 0:13:12.076 which I think keep me from burning the whole house down, right, 0:13:12.196 --> 0:13:12.636 isn't that what. 0:13:12.596 --> 0:13:13.396 Circuit breakers do? 0:13:13.716 --> 0:13:18.156 Yeah? Exactly, you said, I can't do this anymore. That 0:13:18.276 --> 0:13:21.876 was the feeling in high school, and help me understand 0:13:21.876 --> 0:13:26.796 exactly what this was, because it wasn't simply binging and purging, right, 0:13:26.916 --> 0:13:27.916 It was deeper than that. 0:13:28.676 --> 0:13:32.476 All the acting, all the posturing, all the who are 0:13:32.476 --> 0:13:34.236 you going to stand with? In the high school, I 0:13:34.276 --> 0:13:37.956 was extremely self conscious, clearly, and I didn't know to 0:13:37.956 --> 0:13:41.036 whom I belonged. I didn't know where to stand, who 0:13:41.076 --> 0:13:43.316 to stand with, what club I should be, and how 0:13:43.356 --> 0:13:46.716 I should be acting. I could watch some girls laugh 0:13:46.756 --> 0:13:49.916 a certain way, or I just did not know how 0:13:49.916 --> 0:13:52.076 to be, so I felt like I was acting all day. 0:13:52.756 --> 0:13:55.116 It was like being on stage all day and I 0:13:55.156 --> 0:13:56.356 needed to get backstage. 0:13:57.356 --> 0:14:01.396 Tell me about what you learned at the mental hospital 0:14:01.476 --> 0:14:07.556 from being around kids that could no longer act. Almost 0:14:07.556 --> 0:14:09.916 by definition, I will tell you. 0:14:09.876 --> 0:14:12.596 It felt less crazy to me than high school. I 0:14:12.716 --> 0:14:15.556 felt like the same way I feel now when I 0:14:15.596 --> 0:14:18.876 go to my twelve Step meetings, Like I feel like, oh, 0:14:19.196 --> 0:14:23.436 this is where they keep the honest people. Like you know, 0:14:23.836 --> 0:14:26.636 it's hard for me to explain, but there was no bullshit, 0:14:27.316 --> 0:14:32.316 there was no acting. I learned what I wish everybody 0:14:32.356 --> 0:14:38.716 would get to learn, which is like being human, Like, 0:14:38.756 --> 0:14:41.116 can anyone tell me how to feel sad? Like I 0:14:43.916 --> 0:14:46.276 like how we deal with the fact that we have 0:14:46.356 --> 0:14:48.316 these people we love who also hurt us, and that 0:14:48.396 --> 0:14:50.356 we love so much and we're going to lose everybody 0:14:50.396 --> 0:14:54.076 we love, and like any ideas about that? Like that 0:14:54.236 --> 0:14:57.276 is all we did in the hospital. We learned how 0:14:57.476 --> 0:15:01.556 to sit with pain, We learned what it felt like 0:15:01.716 --> 0:15:04.996 to be a being on this planet with other beings, 0:15:05.036 --> 0:15:10.276 and like how trauma works. And we learned strategies to 0:15:10.396 --> 0:15:13.916 process emotion. Even if it was just like painting or dancing, 0:15:14.396 --> 0:15:17.436 we always had to hold each other's hands. Okay, so 0:15:17.596 --> 0:15:20.356 please imagine being a senior in high school, I had 0:15:20.396 --> 0:15:24.276 to go on field trips to art museums with other 0:15:24.316 --> 0:15:27.356 people and just walk around with our little crew of 0:15:27.436 --> 0:15:28.796 crazies and hold hands. 0:15:29.756 --> 0:15:32.956 But Maya, that's my ideal day. Yeah. 0:15:32.996 --> 0:15:37.196 How fascinating is it that someone who was so afraid 0:15:37.276 --> 0:15:42.156 of exposure and rawness actually found her greatest comfort in 0:15:42.196 --> 0:15:47.196 a mental institution in which she was forced to confront 0:15:47.916 --> 0:15:51.836 the deepest, darkest parts of her There's yeah, a deep 0:15:51.916 --> 0:15:54.276 irony there that I'm like still in this moment trying 0:15:54.316 --> 0:15:57.556 to grasp fully because it is wildly unexpected. 0:15:58.556 --> 0:16:01.556 So it's not really exposure. I guess it's just like 0:16:01.876 --> 0:16:07.076 acting like exposures. Okay, if I can just be how 0:16:07.116 --> 0:16:11.276 I am? Yeah, because that was exposure and weird exposure, 0:16:11.356 --> 0:16:14.556 like everyone was staring at us, but I felt like 0:16:15.196 --> 0:16:17.716 so much safer and so much realer. 0:16:18.396 --> 0:16:20.876 So what I'm hearing then is that when you were 0:16:20.876 --> 0:16:25.316 in the mental institution, you were forced to challenge this 0:16:25.436 --> 0:16:30.076 underlying belief that you yourself were broken, because when you 0:16:30.156 --> 0:16:33.356 actually confronted who you were, but without the script, without 0:16:33.436 --> 0:16:37.636 the veneers, without the acting, there was actually an underlying 0:16:37.676 --> 0:16:39.996 comfort there, or at least some relief. 0:16:40.956 --> 0:16:45.516 There is this underlying vibe that we all kind of 0:16:46.356 --> 0:16:51.156 either verbally or nonverbally agree on, which is like, oh, 0:16:51.236 --> 0:16:54.076 they think on the outside that were the broken ones 0:16:54.076 --> 0:16:57.596 in here, but like, actually were the ones who know 0:16:57.716 --> 0:16:59.996 the truth and are telling the truth, and they are 0:17:00.036 --> 0:17:04.836 all acting. So it was something like a feeling of 0:17:04.876 --> 0:17:09.516 a redemptive solidarity of like finding your people and being like, 0:17:09.756 --> 0:17:11.796 that's fine. I don't care if all those people on 0:17:11.836 --> 0:17:15.356 the outside think that I'm broken, because I know if 0:17:15.396 --> 0:17:17.876 I'm broken, this is the kind of brokenness that I want. 0:17:18.156 --> 0:17:20.756 Yeah, And it seems like young Glennon, who thought for 0:17:20.796 --> 0:17:24.476 sure she was broken, really was just saying I feel 0:17:24.516 --> 0:17:28.116 like I'm broken in relation to these other people and 0:17:28.276 --> 0:17:30.916 what their expectations are, what the norms are. But actually 0:17:30.916 --> 0:17:33.716 that whole thing was a farce anyway, So like maybe 0:17:33.756 --> 0:17:35.956 I shouldn't have bought into it in the first place. 0:17:36.036 --> 0:17:36.516 Is that right? 0:17:38.076 --> 0:17:38.316 Yes? 0:17:38.556 --> 0:17:44.356 And I sometimes feel frustrated now because I feel like 0:17:44.556 --> 0:17:48.676 I'm supposed to have some sort of like victory, Like 0:17:48.876 --> 0:17:52.756 i feel like I'm supposed to get to some kind 0:17:52.796 --> 0:17:54.236 of finish line of this story. 0:17:54.596 --> 0:17:54.836 Yeah. 0:17:54.956 --> 0:17:57.796 No, like I'm supposed to have some kind of redemptive moment. 0:17:57.996 --> 0:18:00.636 I keep trying to force redemptive moments every five years 0:18:00.676 --> 0:18:02.676 with a new book. I'm like, I've I'm better, I've 0:18:02.716 --> 0:18:04.956 figured it out. Yeah, and then I go back too. 0:18:05.436 --> 0:18:07.916 But I still feel that way. I still when I'm 0:18:07.916 --> 0:18:10.276 talking to you and I'm thinking out this moment in 0:18:10.636 --> 0:18:14.516 this country, I spend most of my day feeling like, 0:18:15.076 --> 0:18:18.356 get me the fuck off this planet, like I. So 0:18:18.916 --> 0:18:23.916 I still feel that way. I don't trust anyone who 0:18:23.956 --> 0:18:25.076 doesn't feel that way right now. 0:18:25.156 --> 0:18:25.676 That's the thing. 0:18:25.916 --> 0:18:30.116 It's like, is that brokenness or is not being broken 0:18:30.156 --> 0:18:34.916 hearted about the state of things the problem. I wrote 0:18:34.956 --> 0:18:38.356 about that recently and this beautiful stranger wrote back to 0:18:38.356 --> 0:18:40.756 me and said, it's okay, You're just like a humpback whale. 0:18:40.836 --> 0:18:42.996 Humpback whales get like one song that they have to 0:18:43.036 --> 0:18:46.156 sing their entire life. They just sing that one song 0:18:46.236 --> 0:18:47.556 in the same tone over and over again. 0:18:47.596 --> 0:18:50.396 So you're just a whale. I was like, I'll take it. 0:18:51.516 --> 0:18:57.236 I think this question of when we feel truly comfortable 0:18:58.516 --> 0:19:04.436 is just one of the most relatable questions. It's a 0:19:04.436 --> 0:19:06.756 simple question and it's a super hard thing to answer. 0:19:06.996 --> 0:19:10.756 So I get why that's the song of your whaledom, 0:19:11.036 --> 0:19:14.276 because I think that's like a very very see I 0:19:14.356 --> 0:19:16.556 made of a word too, whaled them. I think that's 0:19:16.596 --> 0:19:18.836 like one of the most primal questions that we ask 0:19:18.876 --> 0:19:21.636 as humans, because all we're trying to do is like 0:19:21.716 --> 0:19:24.036 fit in and belong. So of course that question we'll 0:19:24.036 --> 0:19:25.596 get a front row seat all the time. 0:19:26.276 --> 0:19:29.636 Yeah, you know, I've wondered for so long why I'm 0:19:30.156 --> 0:19:32.276 I always feel like I need to move? Why I 0:19:32.276 --> 0:19:35.436 always feel like I need to change my hair, my clothes, 0:19:35.836 --> 0:19:40.516 everything just And it's because you know, about five years ago, 0:19:40.516 --> 0:19:44.796 after twenty moves, I realized, Oh, the problem is that 0:19:44.836 --> 0:19:48.476 I am still here. Yeah, wherever I go there I 0:19:48.516 --> 0:19:52.476 am like, that is the problem. So it really becomes 0:19:52.476 --> 0:19:55.556 a matter of figuring out how to be at peace 0:19:55.636 --> 0:19:56.636 in my body. 0:19:58.316 --> 0:20:00.076 That's like the place I always am. 0:20:00.676 --> 0:20:06.476 Tragically, we'll be back in a moment with a slight 0:20:06.556 --> 0:20:23.076 change of plans. If there's one place where Glennon Doyle 0:20:23.156 --> 0:20:26.636 has felt fully free to be herself, it's on the page. 0:20:27.396 --> 0:20:30.716 She's the author of three best selling memoirs that chronicle 0:20:30.756 --> 0:20:34.356 her journey through addiction, the unraveling of her first marriage, 0:20:34.756 --> 0:20:37.596 and ultimately the choice to leave her husband to be 0:20:37.756 --> 0:20:39.836 with the woman she loves. 0:20:40.036 --> 0:20:40.676 When did you. 0:20:40.636 --> 0:20:45.716 First figure out that you could find a comfortable space 0:20:46.076 --> 0:20:47.756 through words? Through writing? 0:20:51.316 --> 0:20:55.756 I love that question. Okay, I don't think I knew it. 0:20:55.956 --> 0:20:59.716 For a long time through writing, I knew that my 0:20:59.956 --> 0:21:04.596 only comfortable place was reading. I am able to take 0:21:04.636 --> 0:21:06.956 anything to an extreme, So I actually reading for a 0:21:06.956 --> 0:21:10.396 lot of people is like their goal, like they should 0:21:10.436 --> 0:21:13.276 read more. But for me, I have to watch it 0:21:14.116 --> 0:21:16.796 because that is also where I go to just not 0:21:16.876 --> 0:21:20.556 be in this world. So my family needs me to 0:21:20.756 --> 0:21:25.996 not be reading as much as I was. This this 0:21:26.036 --> 0:21:30.236 has been made clear to me. Okay, so that's fine. 0:21:30.356 --> 0:21:35.036 Staying present and not in a book is necessary. I 0:21:35.076 --> 0:21:38.316 don't know the actual answer to that question. I may 0:21:38.356 --> 0:21:41.236 have found it earlier if I wasn't so gone. I 0:21:41.316 --> 0:21:44.556 was very gone to my addiction until I got pregnant 0:21:44.556 --> 0:21:46.196 with my son when I was twenty five. 0:21:46.596 --> 0:21:48.716 And do you mind just sharing the addiction for those 0:21:48.716 --> 0:21:49.476 who don't know. Oh? 0:21:49.556 --> 0:21:52.716 Yes, I mean so it clearly started when I was 0:21:52.756 --> 0:21:56.116 young with food and binging and purging. In high school 0:21:56.316 --> 0:22:00.196 I found alcohol, and then in college I found drugs, 0:22:00.316 --> 0:22:03.996 and so I just did what addicts do. I just 0:22:04.076 --> 0:22:10.356 kept upping the anti. I couldn't use my food strategy 0:22:11.476 --> 0:22:14.996 publicly like that is a tricky thing about an eating disorder, 0:22:15.076 --> 0:22:19.156 especially bulimia. It's something that can bring comfort privately. But 0:22:19.356 --> 0:22:24.156 I needed something to make me feel comfortable and gone 0:22:24.396 --> 0:22:28.876 when I was in public situations, which alcohol was just 0:22:29.316 --> 0:22:34.676 amazing for. So I became a real severe alcoholic. I 0:22:34.756 --> 0:22:36.996 drank every single day of my life from the time 0:22:37.036 --> 0:22:40.516 I was seventeen until I found out I was pregnant 0:22:40.516 --> 0:22:45.476 when I was twenty five. So, then I found out 0:22:45.516 --> 0:22:48.916 I was pregnant, I was twenty five years old, and 0:22:49.356 --> 0:22:53.476 I had a cafeteria moment. I just was like, oh, 0:22:53.476 --> 0:22:57.476 I'm going to die. I had a real knowing that, like. 0:22:59.356 --> 0:22:59.836 This is it. 0:23:00.716 --> 0:23:04.316 I just had barely any life left in me. So 0:23:04.396 --> 0:23:08.796 I and one day that day I just quit. I 0:23:08.916 --> 0:23:11.036 was in a pack of day. I was drinking every day, 0:23:11.156 --> 0:23:13.756 I was using cocaine and all the drugs, and I 0:23:13.876 --> 0:23:16.516 was still binging and purging every single day. 0:23:17.636 --> 0:23:20.836 And I quit all of it in one day. That 0:23:20.956 --> 0:23:25.396 was a good time. Wow, I don't know how Yeah, that. 0:23:25.356 --> 0:23:30.476 Kid who I was pregnant with is now graduating from college, 0:23:30.716 --> 0:23:37.596 and I have struggled so much with my kids leaving. 0:23:37.796 --> 0:23:39.476 I thought I was going to be awesome about it, 0:23:39.996 --> 0:23:44.196 and I haven't done very well with the transition. And 0:23:44.276 --> 0:23:47.676 I think it's because I didn't know how to be 0:23:47.836 --> 0:23:51.276 a human being. I just became a mom. I was like, 0:23:51.556 --> 0:23:53.396 I think this kid's going to be cool. I think 0:23:53.436 --> 0:23:54.956 he's going to love me. So I'm just going to 0:23:55.076 --> 0:24:01.076 create a personality that is Chase's mom. And when that's over, 0:24:01.156 --> 0:24:03.316 I'm like, I don't know what I am now. 0:24:04.276 --> 0:24:06.796 I love that you said that, because the central thesis 0:24:06.836 --> 0:24:10.396 of my book is that the reason why change can 0:24:10.436 --> 0:24:12.956 be so harrowing is that it's a threat to our 0:24:12.996 --> 0:24:17.476 self identity, adopting new identities in our new environments, and 0:24:17.516 --> 0:24:20.436 then suddenly a change happens that strips you of that 0:24:20.516 --> 0:24:22.836 identity that you didn't even know you were so tethered to. 0:24:23.676 --> 0:24:25.236 And then all of a sudden you're like, well, then 0:24:25.276 --> 0:24:27.236