1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:24,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin Heysite Changers. I have exciting news. I've written a book. 2 00:00:24,796 --> 00:00:27,756 Speaker 1: It's called The Other Side of Change, Who we become 3 00:00:28,036 --> 00:00:31,916 Speaker 1: when life makes other plans. It's available for pre order 4 00:00:32,036 --> 00:00:36,316 Speaker 1: now at changewithmya dot com slash book. It's not coming 5 00:00:36,316 --> 00:00:39,436 Speaker 1: out for a while, but preorders make a huge difference. 6 00:00:39,996 --> 00:00:42,996 Speaker 1: They send a powerful signal to booksellers that this book 7 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:46,276 Speaker 1: matters to you. I would be so grateful for your 8 00:00:46,316 --> 00:00:49,476 Speaker 1: early support. It's truly the thing I'm most proud to 9 00:00:49,556 --> 00:00:52,476 Speaker 1: have created. You can find the link to pre order 10 00:00:52,676 --> 00:00:55,796 Speaker 1: in our episode description. Thanks so much, and now on 11 00:00:55,836 --> 00:01:07,076 Speaker 1: to the show. 12 00:01:07,116 --> 00:01:11,276 Speaker 2: Many times in my life, I've had moments where I'm like. 13 00:01:11,836 --> 00:01:13,716 Speaker 3: Oh, I can't do this for one more second. 14 00:01:13,996 --> 00:01:17,716 Speaker 2: Like whether it's my old marriage or my work life, 15 00:01:17,756 --> 00:01:21,436 Speaker 2: I can fake it for only so long, and then 16 00:01:21,436 --> 00:01:23,316 Speaker 2: I have a moment where I'm like, oh, I'm out 17 00:01:23,356 --> 00:01:23,676 Speaker 2: of here. 18 00:01:24,756 --> 00:01:27,676 Speaker 1: Glennon Doyle is a best selling author and a host 19 00:01:27,716 --> 00:01:31,916 Speaker 1: of the podcast We Can Do Hard Things. Over the years, 20 00:01:31,956 --> 00:01:35,236 Speaker 1: she's learned to pay close attention to those signals that 21 00:01:35,396 --> 00:01:39,596 Speaker 1: something is wrong, and rather than ignore them, she's chosen 22 00:01:39,676 --> 00:01:40,156 Speaker 1: to listen. 23 00:01:40,716 --> 00:01:42,556 Speaker 2: I've wondered for so long why I always feel like 24 00:01:42,596 --> 00:01:47,196 Speaker 2: I need to change my hair, my clothes, everything, And 25 00:01:47,316 --> 00:01:50,196 Speaker 2: it's because the problem is that I am still here. 26 00:01:51,916 --> 00:01:55,076 Speaker 2: Wherever I go there, I am like that is the problem. 27 00:01:55,436 --> 00:01:58,596 Speaker 2: So it really becomes a matter of figuring out how 28 00:01:58,636 --> 00:02:00,396 Speaker 2: to be at peace in my body. 29 00:02:04,516 --> 00:02:07,916 Speaker 1: On today's show, Glennon Doyle is still trying to figure 30 00:02:07,956 --> 00:02:13,236 Speaker 1: out where she belongs. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who 31 00:02:13,316 --> 00:02:16,876 Speaker 1: studies human behavior. And this is a slight change of plans, 32 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:19,476 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 33 00:02:19,876 --> 00:02:31,196 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Who am I really? 34 00:02:31,636 --> 00:02:34,196 Speaker 1: Where do I belong? And how do I figure out 35 00:02:34,276 --> 00:02:37,596 Speaker 1: what I want? These are some of the big, messy 36 00:02:37,676 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 1: questions Glennon has been grappling with for years. She's the 37 00:02:41,716 --> 00:02:45,436 Speaker 1: author of the New York Times number one bestsellers Untamed 38 00:02:45,636 --> 00:02:49,916 Speaker 1: and Love Warrior. She's been incredibly open about her struggles 39 00:02:49,956 --> 00:02:53,916 Speaker 1: with addiction, motherhood, and marriage, and in her new book 40 00:02:54,076 --> 00:02:57,156 Speaker 1: We Can Do Hard Things, she shares the wisdom she's 41 00:02:57,196 --> 00:03:01,196 Speaker 1: gained along the way. As we began our conversation, Glennon 42 00:03:01,276 --> 00:03:03,756 Speaker 1: told me that for as long as she can remember, 43 00:03:04,236 --> 00:03:06,116 Speaker 1: she's felt that something was off. 44 00:03:07,076 --> 00:03:09,196 Speaker 2: I felt like there was something deeply wrong with me. 45 00:03:11,356 --> 00:03:13,556 Speaker 2: I did not know exactly what it was. I don't 46 00:03:13,556 --> 00:03:15,156 Speaker 2: think that I would have been able to put it 47 00:03:15,196 --> 00:03:19,116 Speaker 2: into words. I think my only real safe places were reading. 48 00:03:19,956 --> 00:03:26,316 Speaker 2: I read like Ramona Quimby, Yes with Beverly Cleary, and 49 00:03:26,356 --> 00:03:29,076 Speaker 2: I would read the same books over and over again 50 00:03:29,156 --> 00:03:31,236 Speaker 2: because I always wanted to know what happened. 51 00:03:31,396 --> 00:03:32,956 Speaker 3: I didn't want a new experience. 52 00:03:33,476 --> 00:03:36,116 Speaker 2: Life was so unpredictable that I loved the idea of 53 00:03:36,156 --> 00:03:38,196 Speaker 2: I'm entering this world, I know what's going to happen, 54 00:03:38,236 --> 00:03:39,276 Speaker 2: I know how it's going to end. 55 00:03:39,756 --> 00:03:41,716 Speaker 3: I went to school like a normal kid. 56 00:03:41,756 --> 00:03:44,876 Speaker 2: I just I always felt very exposed, like I just 57 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:48,316 Speaker 2: remember thinking, and I still think this. I think it's 58 00:03:48,356 --> 00:03:50,876 Speaker 2: so weird how we just have to walk around in 59 00:03:50,916 --> 00:03:53,436 Speaker 2: the public and people can just look at us anytime 60 00:03:53,476 --> 00:03:54,476 Speaker 2: they want, Like, that's so. 61 00:03:54,716 --> 00:03:55,956 Speaker 3: Weird and vulnerable. 62 00:03:57,236 --> 00:03:59,596 Speaker 2: I would come home and I felt like I was 63 00:03:59,676 --> 00:04:02,756 Speaker 2: kind of holding my breath all day, just making it 64 00:04:02,836 --> 00:04:09,516 Speaker 2: through social exposure. And then I became really severely Believe me, 65 00:04:09,756 --> 00:04:12,716 Speaker 2: by the time I was ten years old and my 66 00:04:13,196 --> 00:04:17,556 Speaker 2: entire life was bolimia. I couldn't wait until three pm 67 00:04:17,596 --> 00:04:20,596 Speaker 2: because I would get home starting an elementary school, through 68 00:04:20,636 --> 00:04:25,036 Speaker 2: middle school, through high school actually, and then through college, 69 00:04:25,196 --> 00:04:28,236 Speaker 2: and then I would just binge, like it was like 70 00:04:28,276 --> 00:04:31,076 Speaker 2: I was holding my breath all day. I'd get home 71 00:04:31,116 --> 00:04:33,516 Speaker 2: my parents were both teachers, so they wouldn't be home yet, 72 00:04:34,276 --> 00:04:36,596 Speaker 2: and I would just it was like I could finally 73 00:04:36,716 --> 00:04:42,876 Speaker 2: relax or let go, and relaxing or letting go was 74 00:04:42,916 --> 00:04:49,076 Speaker 2: a very private experience of just binging food by myself, 75 00:04:50,076 --> 00:04:55,876 Speaker 2: and then I would throw it all up, and I 76 00:04:55,956 --> 00:04:59,276 Speaker 2: think that moment of being laid out on the bathroom 77 00:04:59,356 --> 00:05:04,316 Speaker 2: floor after getting it all out was what I equated 78 00:05:04,436 --> 00:05:10,036 Speaker 2: as relief finally, And that was my experience life every 79 00:05:10,316 --> 00:05:11,556 Speaker 2: single day. 80 00:05:12,396 --> 00:05:15,396 Speaker 1: What do you think Lennon led you to fear self 81 00:05:15,396 --> 00:05:17,436 Speaker 1: exposure to the extent you did. 82 00:05:18,596 --> 00:05:23,276 Speaker 2: I think that I lived in a household that had 83 00:05:23,316 --> 00:05:27,436 Speaker 2: a lot of love in it and was deeply well intentioned, 84 00:05:29,356 --> 00:05:38,636 Speaker 2: but there was no absolutely no room to be human, zero, 85 00:05:38,836 --> 00:05:43,756 Speaker 2: Like it was extremely rigid. There was a ton of 86 00:05:43,996 --> 00:05:49,756 Speaker 2: control and anxiety that controlled every moment, to the point 87 00:05:49,796 --> 00:05:52,956 Speaker 2: where I very much remember as a child just desperately 88 00:05:52,996 --> 00:05:57,356 Speaker 2: trying to control my facial expression when I looked at 89 00:05:57,356 --> 00:06:01,156 Speaker 2: my parents so I didn't freak anybody out if I 90 00:06:01,196 --> 00:06:04,956 Speaker 2: gave the wrong facial expression, it would set my father off. Okay, 91 00:06:05,596 --> 00:06:08,556 Speaker 2: so I would have told you that I was broken 92 00:06:08,836 --> 00:06:11,476 Speaker 2: and crazy, and I would have had no idea why. 93 00:06:12,796 --> 00:06:14,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you're making me reflect back on my 94 00:06:14,876 --> 00:06:18,596 Speaker 1: own childhood, where I was one of very few kids 95 00:06:18,596 --> 00:06:23,076 Speaker 1: of color to be at my school, and even though 96 00:06:23,076 --> 00:06:25,876 Speaker 1: I knew I looked different from all the other kids, 97 00:06:26,156 --> 00:06:30,516 Speaker 1: I saw their cruelty as evidence that I was deeply 98 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:33,876 Speaker 1: flawed in some way, And so I fully resonate with 99 00:06:33,916 --> 00:06:37,036 Speaker 1: your experience. Now, of course, the behavioral manifestations of it 100 00:06:37,076 --> 00:06:39,436 Speaker 1: were very different for both of us. But you talked 101 00:06:39,436 --> 00:06:44,076 Speaker 1: about feeling relief on the bathroom floor, right, What constituted 102 00:06:44,076 --> 00:06:46,676 Speaker 1: that relief? What were you escaping from or what was 103 00:06:46,676 --> 00:06:49,156 Speaker 1: giving rise to that feeling in your body or your mind? 104 00:06:50,156 --> 00:06:55,876 Speaker 2: Being very small and controlled and disciplined and pretty and 105 00:06:56,036 --> 00:07:00,796 Speaker 2: tiny was extremely important in my family. The binge in 106 00:07:00,876 --> 00:07:04,356 Speaker 2: the purge was almost like an animalistic indulgence of. 107 00:07:06,716 --> 00:07:07,076 Speaker 3: Rage. 108 00:07:08,716 --> 00:07:12,156 Speaker 2: I think bulimia is a way of being like a 109 00:07:12,196 --> 00:07:14,236 Speaker 2: bad girl and a good girl at the same time, 110 00:07:14,876 --> 00:07:18,596 Speaker 2: because you're like, fuck it, I am all the things, 111 00:07:18,636 --> 00:07:22,356 Speaker 2: I am doing this, But then your conditioning is like, 112 00:07:22,476 --> 00:07:24,316 Speaker 2: but I have to stay small, but I can't like 113 00:07:24,356 --> 00:07:28,036 Speaker 2: show any evidence of this rebellion. 114 00:07:27,756 --> 00:07:33,716 Speaker 1: Highly contained rebellion. Yes, yeah, yeah, Wow, that is so interesting. 115 00:07:34,356 --> 00:07:39,756 Speaker 1: Did you ever feel comfortable expressing to them or was 116 00:07:39,796 --> 00:07:41,796 Speaker 1: that wrapped up in the space of stuff that was 117 00:07:41,836 --> 00:07:45,116 Speaker 1: just unacceptable to talk about In the Doyle family. 118 00:07:45,556 --> 00:07:49,076 Speaker 2: I mean, my parents were like most parents in that 119 00:07:50,756 --> 00:07:54,316 Speaker 2: they had so much trauma from their childhoods and they 120 00:07:54,316 --> 00:07:58,116 Speaker 2: were doing so much better than their parents did, and 121 00:07:58,156 --> 00:08:01,116 Speaker 2: their one thing was we want to be good parent 122 00:08:01,236 --> 00:08:03,556 Speaker 2: like you. You could feel it, and everything they said 123 00:08:03,636 --> 00:08:06,636 Speaker 2: or did they all the control that fucked me up 124 00:08:06,676 --> 00:08:10,716 Speaker 2: big time, was like they're desperate to be good parents. 125 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:14,316 Speaker 2: So I think I always had this feeling that I 126 00:08:14,396 --> 00:08:18,156 Speaker 2: can't break them. I feel very nervous that I'm saying 127 00:08:18,196 --> 00:08:20,876 Speaker 2: these things because it feels like breaking a family rule 128 00:08:21,076 --> 00:08:24,236 Speaker 2: or saying these things would hurt them in a way. 129 00:08:25,076 --> 00:08:27,636 Speaker 2: It does, it does hit them, but it hurts me 130 00:08:27,716 --> 00:08:30,236 Speaker 2: more to not say it, So I'm saying it anyway. 131 00:08:30,916 --> 00:08:33,276 Speaker 2: But I would never have had the language when I 132 00:08:33,316 --> 00:08:35,276 Speaker 2: was little. I just felt like I have to hide 133 00:08:35,276 --> 00:08:37,436 Speaker 2: this thing this. How could I even put into words 134 00:08:37,476 --> 00:08:39,756 Speaker 2: what I do after school in our house? It's so 135 00:08:40,836 --> 00:08:42,076 Speaker 2: it felt so shameful. 136 00:08:43,476 --> 00:08:45,876 Speaker 1: Tell me more, Glennon, about that moment when you go 137 00:08:45,916 --> 00:08:48,196 Speaker 1: to that total stranger at school and you say, like, 138 00:08:48,916 --> 00:08:51,556 Speaker 1: someone needs to take me away. I can't do this, 139 00:08:51,676 --> 00:08:52,476 Speaker 1: I can't be here. 140 00:08:53,556 --> 00:08:56,036 Speaker 2: I think it was my senior year in high school. 141 00:08:57,356 --> 00:09:03,196 Speaker 2: I remember walking into the school cafeteria. I mean, maya, 142 00:09:03,276 --> 00:09:06,676 Speaker 2: I could start Just saying the words makes me start sweating, 143 00:09:06,796 --> 00:09:09,476 Speaker 2: like wow, it just is the ultimate to me Lord 144 00:09:09,476 --> 00:09:11,996 Speaker 2: of the Flyes situation, Like I didn't know where to 145 00:09:12,036 --> 00:09:15,076 Speaker 2: put my body. I didn't know to whom I belonged, 146 00:09:15,516 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 2: what table do I sit at? Who wants me at 147 00:09:17,996 --> 00:09:21,236 Speaker 2: their table? Eating in front of people was the most 148 00:09:21,316 --> 00:09:22,516 Speaker 2: vulnerable thing in the world. 149 00:09:22,756 --> 00:09:23,516 Speaker 3: I just couldn't. 150 00:09:23,556 --> 00:09:25,516 Speaker 2: I had a moment where I remember standing with my 151 00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:30,116 Speaker 2: tray and I just walked out of the cafeteria, walked 152 00:09:30,156 --> 00:09:32,916 Speaker 2: straight into a guidance counselor's office who I didn't know, 153 00:09:33,956 --> 00:09:37,156 Speaker 2: sat down and said, I need somebody to take me away. 154 00:09:38,036 --> 00:09:41,156 Speaker 2: I'm not leaving this office until somebody takes me away. 155 00:09:42,396 --> 00:09:46,356 Speaker 2: I have flashes of sitting in the guidance counselor's office, 156 00:09:46,556 --> 00:09:49,076 Speaker 2: and then I have flashes of my parents coming in, 157 00:09:49,436 --> 00:09:55,356 Speaker 2: and then I remember some kerfluffle and that kerfluffle. 158 00:09:55,756 --> 00:09:59,676 Speaker 1: Kerfuffle, whatever that word is. You know what, I like, kerfluffle. 159 00:09:59,956 --> 00:10:02,436 Speaker 1: We're gonna go with that. Yeah, that's great. 160 00:10:02,556 --> 00:10:05,316 Speaker 2: It's a joke in our family that I have always 161 00:10:05,316 --> 00:10:07,756 Speaker 2: read more than I've talked to humans, so I often 162 00:10:07,836 --> 00:10:10,156 Speaker 2: say words wrong because I've read them for so long, 163 00:10:10,156 --> 00:10:15,236 Speaker 2: but not hurt them. So anyway, Then I remember like 164 00:10:15,316 --> 00:10:21,436 Speaker 2: a very cold hallway which was walking into the hospital. 165 00:10:22,276 --> 00:10:23,836 Speaker 3: What was really a mental hospital. 166 00:10:23,916 --> 00:10:27,356 Speaker 2: Now we have so many other options, but for like 167 00:10:27,436 --> 00:10:30,836 Speaker 2: my family's insurance and my situation back then, it was 168 00:10:30,876 --> 00:10:34,316 Speaker 2: really just kind of a mental hospital. I remember sitting 169 00:10:34,356 --> 00:10:37,676 Speaker 2: with whoever was like the intake nurse and my parents 170 00:10:37,716 --> 00:10:41,156 Speaker 2: there and them taking all my stuff, like looking through 171 00:10:41,156 --> 00:10:43,396 Speaker 2: my bags and taking away anything that could hurt me, 172 00:10:44,836 --> 00:10:51,836 Speaker 2: which I bodily remember feeling reallye fat, like finally somebody's 173 00:10:51,916 --> 00:10:55,596 Speaker 2: taking my power to hurt myself away from me, Like 174 00:10:55,636 --> 00:10:56,396 Speaker 2: that's what I wanted. 175 00:10:56,916 --> 00:11:02,236 Speaker 1: Wow, what was it about that moment on that school 176 00:11:02,316 --> 00:11:06,756 Speaker 1: day that led you to go to the school's office. 177 00:11:06,756 --> 00:11:08,716 Speaker 1: I mean there were probably so many other days where 178 00:11:08,716 --> 00:11:11,076 Speaker 1: you felt spare. You've been battling this for years and 179 00:11:11,156 --> 00:11:15,876 Speaker 1: years and years, So what was the catalyst for you 180 00:11:15,956 --> 00:11:17,596 Speaker 1: to say or right, enough is enough. 181 00:11:18,876 --> 00:11:21,396 Speaker 2: I think that that is a gift that I have. 182 00:11:22,236 --> 00:11:26,556 Speaker 2: I think that I break every once in a while, 183 00:11:28,316 --> 00:11:32,836 Speaker 2: and I think that the people in my life who 184 00:11:32,876 --> 00:11:39,796 Speaker 2: never break have harder lives. Like I am a little 185 00:11:39,876 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 2: bit like, uh, you know the circuit breakers that like 186 00:11:43,956 --> 00:11:46,196 Speaker 2: if you things start to go out and then you 187 00:11:46,196 --> 00:11:49,916 Speaker 2: can like flip the circuit breaker and stop everything. I 188 00:11:49,956 --> 00:11:51,836 Speaker 2: feel like I'm a bit of a circuit breaker. 189 00:11:52,076 --> 00:11:57,036 Speaker 1: Satisfying, by the way, so satisfying, yeah, small, Plus I 190 00:11:57,076 --> 00:11:57,396 Speaker 1: have no. 191 00:11:57,356 --> 00:11:58,396 Speaker 3: Idea why this works. 192 00:11:58,436 --> 00:12:00,356 Speaker 2: I have no idea how this works, but it's so 193 00:12:00,556 --> 00:12:05,956 Speaker 2: fun that these buttons are gonna work. So I feel 194 00:12:05,956 --> 00:12:08,076 Speaker 2: like I do just break every once in a while. 195 00:12:08,956 --> 00:12:12,436 Speaker 2: I think we live in a world that breaks you, Like, 196 00:12:13,116 --> 00:12:16,396 Speaker 2: I don't think that it's all a personal problem. I 197 00:12:16,436 --> 00:12:19,756 Speaker 2: think that there is stuff happening in our lives and 198 00:12:19,796 --> 00:12:23,396 Speaker 2: culture and country and world and families that should break us. 199 00:12:23,476 --> 00:12:28,796 Speaker 2: And many times in my life I've had moments like 200 00:12:28,876 --> 00:12:32,436 Speaker 2: that in the cafeteria where I'm like, oh, I can't 201 00:12:32,436 --> 00:12:35,396 Speaker 2: do this for one more second, Like whether it's my 202 00:12:35,476 --> 00:12:40,316 Speaker 2: old marriage or my work life, or there's just something 203 00:12:40,316 --> 00:12:43,716 Speaker 2: builds up in me I can fake it for only 204 00:12:43,756 --> 00:12:47,556 Speaker 2: so long, and then I have a moment where I'm like, oh, 205 00:12:47,596 --> 00:12:50,796 Speaker 2: I'm out of here. I won't spend another moment in 206 00:12:50,836 --> 00:12:53,196 Speaker 2: this cafeteria, in this high school, in this marriage, in 207 00:12:53,236 --> 00:12:57,436 Speaker 2: this life, and then just I need help. It's like 208 00:12:57,476 --> 00:13:01,916 Speaker 2: and I need help moment. Yeah, And then that usually 209 00:13:01,996 --> 00:13:03,876 Speaker 2: kind of saves me for a little while, and then 210 00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:07,356 Speaker 2: I get lost again. But I have circuit breaker moments 211 00:13:07,476 --> 00:13:12,076 Speaker 2: which I think keep me from burning the whole house down, right, 212 00:13:12,196 --> 00:13:12,636 Speaker 2: isn't that what. 213 00:13:12,596 --> 00:13:13,396 Speaker 3: Circuit breakers do? 214 00:13:13,716 --> 00:13:18,156 Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly, you said, I can't do this anymore. That 215 00:13:18,276 --> 00:13:21,876 Speaker 1: was the feeling in high school, and help me understand 216 00:13:21,876 --> 00:13:26,796 Speaker 1: exactly what this was, because it wasn't simply binging and purging, right, 217 00:13:26,916 --> 00:13:27,916 Speaker 1: It was deeper than that. 218 00:13:28,676 --> 00:13:32,476 Speaker 2: All the acting, all the posturing, all the who are 219 00:13:32,476 --> 00:13:34,236 Speaker 2: you going to stand with? In the high school, I 220 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:37,956 Speaker 2: was extremely self conscious, clearly, and I didn't know to 221 00:13:37,956 --> 00:13:41,036 Speaker 2: whom I belonged. I didn't know where to stand, who 222 00:13:41,076 --> 00:13:43,316 Speaker 2: to stand with, what club I should be, and how 223 00:13:43,356 --> 00:13:46,716 Speaker 2: I should be acting. I could watch some girls laugh 224 00:13:46,756 --> 00:13:49,916 Speaker 2: a certain way, or I just did not know how 225 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:52,076 Speaker 2: to be, so I felt like I was acting all day. 226 00:13:52,756 --> 00:13:55,116 Speaker 2: It was like being on stage all day and I 227 00:13:55,156 --> 00:13:56,356 Speaker 2: needed to get backstage. 228 00:13:57,356 --> 00:14:01,396 Speaker 1: Tell me about what you learned at the mental hospital 229 00:14:01,476 --> 00:14:07,556 Speaker 1: from being around kids that could no longer act. Almost 230 00:14:07,556 --> 00:14:09,916 Speaker 1: by definition, I will tell you. 231 00:14:09,876 --> 00:14:12,596 Speaker 2: It felt less crazy to me than high school. I 232 00:14:12,716 --> 00:14:15,556 Speaker 2: felt like the same way I feel now when I 233 00:14:15,596 --> 00:14:18,876 Speaker 2: go to my twelve Step meetings, Like I feel like, oh, 234 00:14:19,196 --> 00:14:23,436 Speaker 2: this is where they keep the honest people. Like you know, 235 00:14:23,836 --> 00:14:26,636 Speaker 2: it's hard for me to explain, but there was no bullshit, 236 00:14:27,316 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 2: there was no acting. I learned what I wish everybody 237 00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:38,716 Speaker 2: would get to learn, which is like being human, Like, 238 00:14:38,756 --> 00:14:41,116 Speaker 2: can anyone tell me how to feel sad? Like I 239 00:14:43,916 --> 00:14:46,276 Speaker 2: like how we deal with the fact that we have 240 00:14:46,356 --> 00:14:48,316 Speaker 2: these people we love who also hurt us, and that 241 00:14:48,396 --> 00:14:50,356 Speaker 2: we love so much and we're going to lose everybody 242 00:14:50,396 --> 00:14:54,076 Speaker 2: we love, and like any ideas about that? Like that 243 00:14:54,236 --> 00:14:57,276 Speaker 2: is all we did in the hospital. We learned how 244 00:14:57,476 --> 00:15:01,556 Speaker 2: to sit with pain, We learned what it felt like 245 00:15:01,716 --> 00:15:04,996 Speaker 2: to be a being on this planet with other beings, 246 00:15:05,036 --> 00:15:10,276 Speaker 2: and like how trauma works. And we learned strategies to 247 00:15:10,396 --> 00:15:13,916 Speaker 2: process emotion. Even if it was just like painting or dancing, 248 00:15:14,396 --> 00:15:17,436 Speaker 2: we always had to hold each other's hands. Okay, so 249 00:15:17,596 --> 00:15:20,356 Speaker 2: please imagine being a senior in high school, I had 250 00:15:20,396 --> 00:15:24,276 Speaker 2: to go on field trips to art museums with other 251 00:15:24,316 --> 00:15:27,356 Speaker 2: people and just walk around with our little crew of 252 00:15:27,436 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 2: crazies and hold hands. 253 00:15:29,756 --> 00:15:32,956 Speaker 3: But Maya, that's my ideal day. Yeah. 254 00:15:32,996 --> 00:15:37,196 Speaker 1: How fascinating is it that someone who was so afraid 255 00:15:37,276 --> 00:15:42,156 Speaker 1: of exposure and rawness actually found her greatest comfort in 256 00:15:42,196 --> 00:15:47,196 Speaker 1: a mental institution in which she was forced to confront 257 00:15:47,916 --> 00:15:51,836 Speaker 1: the deepest, darkest parts of her There's yeah, a deep 258 00:15:51,916 --> 00:15:54,276 Speaker 1: irony there that I'm like still in this moment trying 259 00:15:54,316 --> 00:15:57,556 Speaker 1: to grasp fully because it is wildly unexpected. 260 00:15:58,556 --> 00:16:01,556 Speaker 2: So it's not really exposure. I guess it's just like 261 00:16:01,876 --> 00:16:07,076 Speaker 2: acting like exposures. Okay, if I can just be how 262 00:16:07,116 --> 00:16:11,276 Speaker 2: I am? Yeah, because that was exposure and weird exposure, 263 00:16:11,356 --> 00:16:14,556 Speaker 2: like everyone was staring at us, but I felt like 264 00:16:15,196 --> 00:16:17,716 Speaker 2: so much safer and so much realer. 265 00:16:18,396 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing then is that when you were 266 00:16:20,876 --> 00:16:25,316 Speaker 1: in the mental institution, you were forced to challenge this 267 00:16:25,436 --> 00:16:30,076 Speaker 1: underlying belief that you yourself were broken, because when you 268 00:16:30,156 --> 00:16:33,356 Speaker 1: actually confronted who you were, but without the script, without 269 00:16:33,436 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 1: the veneers, without the acting, there was actually an underlying 270 00:16:37,676 --> 00:16:39,996 Speaker 1: comfort there, or at least some relief. 271 00:16:40,956 --> 00:16:45,516 Speaker 2: There is this underlying vibe that we all kind of 272 00:16:46,356 --> 00:16:51,156 Speaker 2: either verbally or nonverbally agree on, which is like, oh, 273 00:16:51,236 --> 00:16:54,076 Speaker 2: they think on the outside that were the broken ones 274 00:16:54,076 --> 00:16:57,596 Speaker 2: in here, but like, actually were the ones who know 275 00:16:57,716 --> 00:16:59,996 Speaker 2: the truth and are telling the truth, and they are 276 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:04,836 Speaker 2: all acting. So it was something like a feeling of 277 00:17:04,876 --> 00:17:09,516 Speaker 2: a redemptive solidarity of like finding your people and being like, 278 00:17:09,756 --> 00:17:11,796 Speaker 2: that's fine. I don't care if all those people on 279 00:17:11,836 --> 00:17:15,356 Speaker 2: the outside think that I'm broken, because I know if 280 00:17:15,396 --> 00:17:17,876 Speaker 2: I'm broken, this is the kind of brokenness that I want. 281 00:17:18,156 --> 00:17:20,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it seems like young Glennon, who thought for 282 00:17:20,796 --> 00:17:24,476 Speaker 1: sure she was broken, really was just saying I feel 283 00:17:24,516 --> 00:17:28,116 Speaker 1: like I'm broken in relation to these other people and 284 00:17:28,276 --> 00:17:30,916 Speaker 1: what their expectations are, what the norms are. But actually 285 00:17:30,916 --> 00:17:33,716 Speaker 1: that whole thing was a farce anyway, So like maybe 286 00:17:33,756 --> 00:17:35,956 Speaker 1: I shouldn't have bought into it in the first place. 287 00:17:36,036 --> 00:17:36,516 Speaker 1: Is that right? 288 00:17:38,076 --> 00:17:38,316 Speaker 3: Yes? 289 00:17:38,556 --> 00:17:44,356 Speaker 2: And I sometimes feel frustrated now because I feel like 290 00:17:44,556 --> 00:17:48,676 Speaker 2: I'm supposed to have some sort of like victory, Like 291 00:17:48,876 --> 00:17:52,756 Speaker 2: i feel like I'm supposed to get to some kind 292 00:17:52,796 --> 00:17:54,236 Speaker 2: of finish line of this story. 293 00:17:54,596 --> 00:17:54,836 Speaker 1: Yeah. 294 00:17:54,956 --> 00:17:57,796 Speaker 2: No, like I'm supposed to have some kind of redemptive moment. 295 00:17:57,996 --> 00:18:00,636 Speaker 2: I keep trying to force redemptive moments every five years 296 00:18:00,676 --> 00:18:02,676 Speaker 2: with a new book. I'm like, I've I'm better, I've 297 00:18:02,716 --> 00:18:04,956 Speaker 2: figured it out. Yeah, and then I go back too. 298 00:18:05,436 --> 00:18:07,916 Speaker 2: But I still feel that way. I still when I'm 299 00:18:07,916 --> 00:18:10,276 Speaker 2: talking to you and I'm thinking out this moment in 300 00:18:10,636 --> 00:18:14,516 Speaker 2: this country, I spend most of my day feeling like, 301 00:18:15,076 --> 00:18:18,356 Speaker 2: get me the fuck off this planet, like I. So 302 00:18:18,916 --> 00:18:23,916 Speaker 2: I still feel that way. I don't trust anyone who 303 00:18:23,956 --> 00:18:25,076 Speaker 2: doesn't feel that way right now. 304 00:18:25,156 --> 00:18:25,676 Speaker 3: That's the thing. 305 00:18:25,916 --> 00:18:30,116 Speaker 2: It's like, is that brokenness or is not being broken 306 00:18:30,156 --> 00:18:34,916 Speaker 2: hearted about the state of things the problem. I wrote 307 00:18:34,956 --> 00:18:38,356 Speaker 2: about that recently and this beautiful stranger wrote back to 308 00:18:38,356 --> 00:18:40,756 Speaker 2: me and said, it's okay, You're just like a humpback whale. 309 00:18:40,836 --> 00:18:42,996 Speaker 2: Humpback whales get like one song that they have to 310 00:18:43,036 --> 00:18:46,156 Speaker 2: sing their entire life. They just sing that one song 311 00:18:46,236 --> 00:18:47,556 Speaker 2: in the same tone over and over again. 312 00:18:47,596 --> 00:18:50,396 Speaker 3: So you're just a whale. I was like, I'll take it. 313 00:18:51,516 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 1: I think this question of when we feel truly comfortable 314 00:18:58,516 --> 00:19:04,436 Speaker 1: is just one of the most relatable questions. It's a 315 00:19:04,436 --> 00:19:06,756 Speaker 1: simple question and it's a super hard thing to answer. 316 00:19:06,996 --> 00:19:10,756 Speaker 1: So I get why that's the song of your whaledom, 317 00:19:11,036 --> 00:19:14,276 Speaker 1: because I think that's like a very very see I 318 00:19:14,356 --> 00:19:16,556 Speaker 1: made of a word too, whaled them. I think that's 319 00:19:16,596 --> 00:19:18,836 Speaker 1: like one of the most primal questions that we ask 320 00:19:18,876 --> 00:19:21,636 Speaker 1: as humans, because all we're trying to do is like 321 00:19:21,716 --> 00:19:24,036 Speaker 1: fit in and belong. So of course that question we'll 322 00:19:24,036 --> 00:19:25,596 Speaker 1: get a front row seat all the time. 323 00:19:26,276 --> 00:19:29,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've wondered for so long why I'm 324 00:19:30,156 --> 00:19:32,276 Speaker 2: I always feel like I need to move? Why I 325 00:19:32,276 --> 00:19:35,436 Speaker 2: always feel like I need to change my hair, my clothes, 326 00:19:35,836 --> 00:19:40,516 Speaker 2: everything just And it's because you know, about five years ago, 327 00:19:40,516 --> 00:19:44,796 Speaker 2: after twenty moves, I realized, Oh, the problem is that 328 00:19:44,836 --> 00:19:48,476 Speaker 2: I am still here. Yeah, wherever I go there I 329 00:19:48,516 --> 00:19:52,476 Speaker 2: am like, that is the problem. So it really becomes 330 00:19:52,476 --> 00:19:55,556 Speaker 2: a matter of figuring out how to be at peace 331 00:19:55,636 --> 00:19:56,636 Speaker 2: in my body. 332 00:19:58,316 --> 00:20:00,076 Speaker 3: That's like the place I always am. 333 00:20:00,676 --> 00:20:06,476 Speaker 1: Tragically, we'll be back in a moment with a slight 334 00:20:06,556 --> 00:20:23,076 Speaker 1: change of plans. If there's one place where Glennon Doyle 335 00:20:23,156 --> 00:20:26,636 Speaker 1: has felt fully free to be herself, it's on the page. 336 00:20:27,396 --> 00:20:30,716 Speaker 1: She's the author of three best selling memoirs that chronicle 337 00:20:30,756 --> 00:20:34,356 Speaker 1: her journey through addiction, the unraveling of her first marriage, 338 00:20:34,756 --> 00:20:37,596 Speaker 1: and ultimately the choice to leave her husband to be 339 00:20:37,756 --> 00:20:39,836 Speaker 1: with the woman she loves. 340 00:20:40,036 --> 00:20:40,676 Speaker 3: When did you. 341 00:20:40,636 --> 00:20:45,716 Speaker 1: First figure out that you could find a comfortable space 342 00:20:46,076 --> 00:20:47,756 Speaker 1: through words? Through writing? 343 00:20:51,316 --> 00:20:55,756 Speaker 2: I love that question. Okay, I don't think I knew it. 344 00:20:55,956 --> 00:20:59,716 Speaker 2: For a long time through writing, I knew that my 345 00:20:59,956 --> 00:21:04,596 Speaker 2: only comfortable place was reading. I am able to take 346 00:21:04,636 --> 00:21:06,956 Speaker 2: anything to an extreme, So I actually reading for a 347 00:21:06,956 --> 00:21:10,396 Speaker 2: lot of people is like their goal, like they should 348 00:21:10,436 --> 00:21:13,276 Speaker 2: read more. But for me, I have to watch it 349 00:21:14,116 --> 00:21:16,796 Speaker 2: because that is also where I go to just not 350 00:21:16,876 --> 00:21:20,556 Speaker 2: be in this world. So my family needs me to 351 00:21:20,756 --> 00:21:25,996 Speaker 2: not be reading as much as I was. This this 352 00:21:26,036 --> 00:21:30,236 Speaker 2: has been made clear to me. Okay, so that's fine. 353 00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:35,036 Speaker 2: Staying present and not in a book is necessary. I 354 00:21:35,076 --> 00:21:38,316 Speaker 2: don't know the actual answer to that question. I may 355 00:21:38,356 --> 00:21:41,236 Speaker 2: have found it earlier if I wasn't so gone. I 356 00:21:41,316 --> 00:21:44,556 Speaker 2: was very gone to my addiction until I got pregnant 357 00:21:44,556 --> 00:21:46,196 Speaker 2: with my son when I was twenty five. 358 00:21:46,596 --> 00:21:48,716 Speaker 1: And do you mind just sharing the addiction for those 359 00:21:48,716 --> 00:21:49,476 Speaker 1: who don't know. Oh? 360 00:21:49,556 --> 00:21:52,716 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean so it clearly started when I was 361 00:21:52,756 --> 00:21:56,116 Speaker 2: young with food and binging and purging. In high school 362 00:21:56,316 --> 00:22:00,196 Speaker 2: I found alcohol, and then in college I found drugs, 363 00:22:00,316 --> 00:22:03,996 Speaker 2: and so I just did what addicts do. I just 364 00:22:04,076 --> 00:22:10,356 Speaker 2: kept upping the anti. I couldn't use my food strategy 365 00:22:11,476 --> 00:22:14,996 Speaker 2: publicly like that is a tricky thing about an eating disorder, 366 00:22:15,076 --> 00:22:19,156 Speaker 2: especially bulimia. It's something that can bring comfort privately. But 367 00:22:19,356 --> 00:22:24,156 Speaker 2: I needed something to make me feel comfortable and gone 368 00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:28,876 Speaker 2: when I was in public situations, which alcohol was just 369 00:22:29,316 --> 00:22:34,676 Speaker 2: amazing for. So I became a real severe alcoholic. I 370 00:22:34,756 --> 00:22:36,996 Speaker 2: drank every single day of my life from the time 371 00:22:37,036 --> 00:22:40,516 Speaker 2: I was seventeen until I found out I was pregnant 372 00:22:40,516 --> 00:22:45,476 Speaker 2: when I was twenty five. So, then I found out 373 00:22:45,516 --> 00:22:48,916 Speaker 2: I was pregnant, I was twenty five years old, and 374 00:22:49,356 --> 00:22:53,476 Speaker 2: I had a cafeteria moment. I just was like, oh, 375 00:22:53,476 --> 00:22:57,476 Speaker 2: I'm going to die. I had a real knowing that, like. 376 00:22:59,356 --> 00:22:59,836 Speaker 3: This is it. 377 00:23:00,716 --> 00:23:04,316 Speaker 2: I just had barely any life left in me. So 378 00:23:04,396 --> 00:23:08,796 Speaker 2: I and one day that day I just quit. I 379 00:23:08,916 --> 00:23:11,036 Speaker 2: was in a pack of day. I was drinking every day, 380 00:23:11,156 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 2: I was using cocaine and all the drugs, and I 381 00:23:13,876 --> 00:23:16,516 Speaker 2: was still binging and purging every single day. 382 00:23:17,636 --> 00:23:20,836 Speaker 3: And I quit all of it in one day. That 383 00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:25,396 Speaker 3: was a good time. Wow, I don't know how Yeah, that. 384 00:23:25,356 --> 00:23:30,476 Speaker 2: Kid who I was pregnant with is now graduating from college, 385 00:23:30,716 --> 00:23:37,596 Speaker 2: and I have struggled so much with my kids leaving. 386 00:23:37,796 --> 00:23:39,476 Speaker 2: I thought I was going to be awesome about it, 387 00:23:39,996 --> 00:23:44,196 Speaker 2: and I haven't done very well with the transition. And 388 00:23:44,276 --> 00:23:47,676 Speaker 2: I think it's because I didn't know how to be 389 00:23:47,836 --> 00:23:51,276 Speaker 2: a human being. I just became a mom. I was like, 390 00:23:51,556 --> 00:23:53,396 Speaker 2: I think this kid's going to be cool. I think 391 00:23:53,436 --> 00:23:54,956 Speaker 2: he's going to love me. So I'm just going to 392 00:23:55,076 --> 00:24:01,076 Speaker 2: create a personality that is Chase's mom. And when that's over, 393 00:24:01,156 --> 00:24:03,316 Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know what I am now. 394 00:24:04,276 --> 00:24:06,796 Speaker 1: I love that you said that, because the central thesis 395 00:24:06,836 --> 00:24:10,396 Speaker 1: of my book is that the reason why change can 396 00:24:10,436 --> 00:24:12,956 Speaker 1: be so harrowing is that it's a threat to our 397 00:24:12,996 --> 00:24:17,476 Speaker 1: self identity, adopting new identities in our new environments, and 398 00:24:17,516 --> 00:24:20,436 Speaker 1: then suddenly a change happens that strips you of that 399 00:24:20,516 --> 00:24:22,836 Speaker 1: identity that you didn't even know you were so tethered to. 400 00:24:23,676 --> 00:24:25,236 Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden you're like, well, then 401 00:24:25,276 --> 00:24:27,236 Speaker 1: what I am I now? Because this whole time I've 402 00:24:27,276 --> 00:24:29,156 Speaker 1: been mom Glenn, and no, I'm supposed to be human 403 00:24:29,196 --> 00:24:32,596 Speaker 1: glennin anyway that's a cyber Oh my god, you just 404 00:24:32,636 --> 00:24:36,116 Speaker 1: spoke to my heart. That's exactly my core thesis about 405 00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:40,156 Speaker 1: why change screws us over In a really big way 406 00:24:40,156 --> 00:24:41,996 Speaker 1: and desorients us to the degree it does. 407 00:24:42,476 --> 00:24:43,996 Speaker 2: Before we move on from that, can I ask you 408 00:24:44,036 --> 00:24:46,916 Speaker 2: one more question, because, okay, so this is what I 409 00:24:47,036 --> 00:24:50,556 Speaker 2: can't stop thinking about, which you've probably already figured out. 410 00:24:50,756 --> 00:24:54,076 Speaker 2: It's not just the change, but it's belonging. This is 411 00:24:54,076 --> 00:24:56,596 Speaker 2: what I have figured out as someone who has spent 412 00:24:56,596 --> 00:25:00,036 Speaker 2: my entire life trying to find something to belong to, 413 00:25:00,596 --> 00:25:03,276 Speaker 2: trying to find some group of people who I feel 414 00:25:03,276 --> 00:25:07,036 Speaker 2: fully comfortable with, the only place that I have ever 415 00:25:07,116 --> 00:25:13,436 Speaker 2: felt fully known, fully needed, fully loved is this little 416 00:25:13,636 --> 00:25:16,796 Speaker 2: group of people. And now they're all leaving. It's like, 417 00:25:18,196 --> 00:25:20,036 Speaker 2: what do I do now? To whom do I belong now? 418 00:25:20,116 --> 00:25:22,036 Speaker 2: It's like, that's the question again? 419 00:25:22,916 --> 00:25:26,276 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, so I have thought about this a lot, 420 00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:29,636 Speaker 1: and let me share with you what's helped me build 421 00:25:29,676 --> 00:25:35,156 Speaker 1: a more resilient identity during these tough moments of change. So, 422 00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:41,476 Speaker 1: rather than attaching your identity to specific pursuits like being 423 00:25:41,476 --> 00:25:44,996 Speaker 1: a mom or a writer or a podcaster, it can 424 00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:49,596 Speaker 1: be better to anchor your identity to the underlying features 425 00:25:49,676 --> 00:25:52,796 Speaker 1: of those pursuits that really make you light up, that 426 00:25:52,876 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 1: really make you tick. It's like a can I anchor 427 00:25:55,836 --> 00:25:58,236 Speaker 1: my value and my worth and my sense of self 428 00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:01,116 Speaker 1: not to what I do, but why I do it, 429 00:26:01,636 --> 00:26:03,716 Speaker 1: because that is the part of us that nothing in 430 00:26:03,756 --> 00:26:07,716 Speaker 1: the universe can touch, like it's well protected forever. And 431 00:26:07,756 --> 00:26:10,556 Speaker 1: then it helps guide you in your next pursuit. Because now, Glennon, 432 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:13,676 Speaker 1: you're thinking, okay, empty nesting has been like a running 433 00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:15,796 Speaker 1: into a freight train. Right. My heart is broken to pieces. 434 00:26:15,796 --> 00:26:18,116 Speaker 1: I don't even know who I am anymore. It's like, well, 435 00:26:18,196 --> 00:26:20,636 Speaker 1: now I know belonging is the number one thing that 436 00:26:20,676 --> 00:26:24,036 Speaker 1: I was getting from motherhood. I have to really prioritize 437 00:26:24,036 --> 00:26:26,716 Speaker 1: that when it comes to my next thing, my next pursuit, 438 00:26:26,716 --> 00:26:28,916 Speaker 1: there has to be this like crazy feeling of belonging. 439 00:26:29,236 --> 00:26:31,796 Speaker 1: Otherwise I'm not feeling that same need. So for me, 440 00:26:31,876 --> 00:26:34,156 Speaker 1: it's been a bit of a north star too, when 441 00:26:34,196 --> 00:26:35,756 Speaker 1: I face these inflection points. 442 00:26:36,396 --> 00:26:40,436 Speaker 3: That's really fucking good. That's so good. I hope that's 443 00:26:40,476 --> 00:26:42,516 Speaker 3: in your book. Is that in your book? Yeah, it's 444 00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:44,156 Speaker 3: a couple of things. It's not you need to stop 445 00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:44,596 Speaker 3: the press. 446 00:26:46,516 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 1: So you are if we pass forward to this moment 447 00:26:49,596 --> 00:26:52,796 Speaker 1: in time, a mother of three, you're married to your husband, 448 00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:57,716 Speaker 1: you start writing these emails to your friends where you 449 00:26:57,876 --> 00:27:01,396 Speaker 1: found this safe space where you're like, I feel like 450 00:27:02,236 --> 00:27:04,996 Speaker 1: I can be myself through these words. Tell me when 451 00:27:04,996 --> 00:27:07,716 Speaker 1: there was a moment where you felt safety in these 452 00:27:07,796 --> 00:27:09,556 Speaker 1: vulnerable words that you're putting out there. 453 00:27:10,316 --> 00:27:16,676 Speaker 2: Well, I remember being home with three little ones. I 454 00:27:16,756 --> 00:27:21,916 Speaker 2: do remember feeling quite isolated. I remember thinking, how is 455 00:27:21,916 --> 00:27:24,716 Speaker 2: it possible that this always feels like way too much 456 00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:27,316 Speaker 2: and not enough at the same time. I remember that 457 00:27:27,356 --> 00:27:32,356 Speaker 2: feeling very deeply. My sister was my person, she still is. 458 00:27:32,716 --> 00:27:36,396 Speaker 2: She brought me a computer and she said, you are 459 00:27:36,436 --> 00:27:38,636 Speaker 2: going to write, because that's what you're meant to do. 460 00:27:39,996 --> 00:27:41,436 Speaker 3: So I do what my sister says. 461 00:27:41,476 --> 00:27:43,356 Speaker 2: Man, she's the one who's always known me the best, 462 00:27:43,476 --> 00:27:50,436 Speaker 2: and I started writing. It's like, in writing, it feels 463 00:27:50,516 --> 00:27:52,876 Speaker 2: like I can use a voice that I can't. 464 00:27:52,676 --> 00:27:54,716 Speaker 3: Use out there. 465 00:27:55,316 --> 00:27:57,796 Speaker 2: It feels like I can use the same voice that 466 00:27:57,836 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 2: I use in my twelve step meetings in the hospital, 467 00:28:00,036 --> 00:28:03,716 Speaker 2: just a very like raw. I mean, people say no filter, 468 00:28:03,956 --> 00:28:07,996 Speaker 2: but that's true. Like that's when you're out in the 469 00:28:08,036 --> 00:28:11,156 Speaker 2: world and someone says, how are you, No one really 470 00:28:11,196 --> 00:28:14,116 Speaker 2: wants to hear the answer, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And 471 00:28:14,156 --> 00:28:16,356 Speaker 2: I think I learned that from my family, like my dad, 472 00:28:16,396 --> 00:28:18,916 Speaker 2: who I describe to you who is kind of has 473 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:21,236 Speaker 2: a rigidity and an anxiety that makes it hard to 474 00:28:21,356 --> 00:28:25,516 Speaker 2: communicate in person. He always wrote me the most beautiful letters. 475 00:28:25,516 --> 00:28:26,116 Speaker 2: It still does. 476 00:28:26,596 --> 00:28:26,796 Speaker 1: Oh. 477 00:28:26,836 --> 00:28:29,716 Speaker 2: Interesting, that's how we communicate it. We say things in 478 00:28:29,836 --> 00:28:34,356 Speaker 2: letters that never in a million years would we say 479 00:28:34,356 --> 00:28:34,796 Speaker 2: in person. 480 00:28:35,636 --> 00:28:38,756 Speaker 1: Do you think in part it's because so as someone 481 00:28:38,796 --> 00:28:41,556 Speaker 1: who is hyper conscious about even their facial expressions, right, 482 00:28:41,596 --> 00:28:44,796 Speaker 1: who's presumably really hypervigilant, is picking up on the emotional 483 00:28:44,796 --> 00:28:46,916 Speaker 1: states of everyone around them, and are they approving of 484 00:28:46,956 --> 00:28:48,916 Speaker 1: what I'm saying or not? Do you think it's because 485 00:28:48,996 --> 00:28:52,716 Speaker 1: in writing, you just do not collect immediate feedback from 486 00:28:52,756 --> 00:28:55,356 Speaker 1: other people. So you're just like staring the words in 487 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:57,516 Speaker 1: the face and you're just like, are these true or not? 488 00:29:00,036 --> 00:29:04,556 Speaker 2: Yes, I've never exactly thought about it like that, But 489 00:29:04,796 --> 00:29:07,556 Speaker 2: when you said that, I thought of something am Lamott 490 00:29:07,596 --> 00:29:09,836 Speaker 2: said was the great thing about writing They can't boo 491 00:29:09,876 --> 00:29:10,796 Speaker 2: you right away. 492 00:29:11,036 --> 00:29:14,996 Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go, some version of that. Yeah. 493 00:29:15,076 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe all I had to decide was is this 494 00:29:18,036 --> 00:29:18,836 Speaker 2: true or not? 495 00:29:18,836 --> 00:29:18,956 Speaker 1: Not? 496 00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:21,036 Speaker 3: Like what does everyone see or think about this? 497 00:29:21,116 --> 00:29:24,316 Speaker 1: And it's funny because so Anne LaMotte focuses on the booing, 498 00:29:24,356 --> 00:29:27,116 Speaker 1: but it's almost just as pernicious to get the cheers 499 00:29:27,196 --> 00:29:29,676 Speaker 1: right away too, just as it's like, oh, I guess 500 00:29:29,676 --> 00:29:31,836 Speaker 1: they like this. Okay, more of this, Glennon, even if 501 00:29:31,836 --> 00:29:32,956 Speaker 1: it doesn't feel faithful. 502 00:29:33,556 --> 00:29:35,356 Speaker 3: That is absolutely true. 503 00:29:35,516 --> 00:29:40,156 Speaker 2: The approval is as every bit is controllinglutely disapproval. 504 00:29:40,276 --> 00:29:41,956 Speaker 3: It's attachment theory through writing. 505 00:29:42,396 --> 00:29:44,796 Speaker 2: Yes, we do more of what makes people happy, we 506 00:29:44,836 --> 00:29:47,676 Speaker 2: do less of what makes people sad. So not seeing 507 00:29:47,716 --> 00:29:52,236 Speaker 2: facial expressions is probably a very big part of being 508 00:29:52,796 --> 00:29:54,236 Speaker 2: authentic for me. 509 00:29:54,876 --> 00:29:56,956 Speaker 1: When it went from just emails to friends to this 510 00:29:56,996 --> 00:29:58,596 Speaker 1: big blog to like, oh my god, now I have 511 00:29:58,676 --> 00:30:02,916 Speaker 1: this massive audience. How did you retain that authenticity now 512 00:30:02,916 --> 00:30:06,076 Speaker 1: that in your head you're thinking when you're writing, there's 513 00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:08,516 Speaker 1: a consciousness like, oh my god, millions of people are 514 00:30:08,556 --> 00:30:11,396 Speaker 1: going to read this, or I'm getting comments, I'm getting 515 00:30:11,516 --> 00:30:14,196 Speaker 1: reader comments about what they're liking or not liking. How 516 00:30:14,196 --> 00:30:16,836 Speaker 1: did you, if it all, block that out or did 517 00:30:16,836 --> 00:30:18,276 Speaker 1: you just never feel burdened by it? 518 00:30:18,956 --> 00:30:21,956 Speaker 2: No, I didn't block it out, and it did affect me, 519 00:30:22,076 --> 00:30:24,396 Speaker 2: and it does affect me, and I've never learned to 520 00:30:24,396 --> 00:30:28,196 Speaker 2: block it out. I don't think I have ever written 521 00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:34,156 Speaker 2: anything except for the beginning when I wasn't also thinking 522 00:30:35,316 --> 00:30:39,476 Speaker 2: how would this paragraph be better or land more or 523 00:30:39,676 --> 00:30:42,036 Speaker 2: be received in a way where it's a real mic 524 00:30:42,156 --> 00:30:46,436 Speaker 2: drop or I'm always thinking that. I mean, it makes 525 00:30:46,476 --> 00:30:49,356 Speaker 2: me really sad, actually, like it freaks me out to 526 00:30:49,436 --> 00:30:51,796 Speaker 2: even say this, because I'm like, wait, but what is real? 527 00:30:51,876 --> 00:30:53,036 Speaker 3: Then? I think? 528 00:30:55,836 --> 00:30:58,276 Speaker 2: I think painting, for me is the realist thing that 529 00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:01,956 Speaker 2: I do right now. I paint all the time, and 530 00:31:01,996 --> 00:31:04,996 Speaker 2: I'm awful at it. I'm not saying this in a 531 00:31:04,996 --> 00:31:07,996 Speaker 2: self deprecating way, like it's really bad. It's not anything 532 00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:11,796 Speaker 2: that anyone would ever want, and so that protects it. 533 00:31:12,116 --> 00:31:16,356 Speaker 2: You can't turn it into a commodity. But I feel 534 00:31:16,356 --> 00:31:18,556 Speaker 2: that feeling of it doesn't matter, and I'm not doing 535 00:31:18,556 --> 00:31:20,876 Speaker 2: this for anyone, and it's just about what I'm putting 536 00:31:20,876 --> 00:31:22,556 Speaker 2: into it and not about what people are going to 537 00:31:22,636 --> 00:31:24,836 Speaker 2: say in that moment, more than I do in writing. 538 00:31:24,876 --> 00:31:29,076 Speaker 1: Now, what I'm hearing you say is I, Glennon, have 539 00:31:29,156 --> 00:31:32,396 Speaker 1: a desperate need for realness, and at some point writing 540 00:31:32,476 --> 00:31:34,556 Speaker 1: was no longer the medium through which I could achieve that, 541 00:31:34,996 --> 00:31:39,956 Speaker 1: and so I found an outlet through painting. Yeah that's beautiful. 542 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:42,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it makes me want to fix it 543 00:31:42,796 --> 00:31:46,476 Speaker 2: about writing I don't know, because I'm still thinking about 544 00:31:46,476 --> 00:31:48,116 Speaker 2: what people are going to feel. 545 00:31:48,876 --> 00:31:52,596 Speaker 1: If you were to imagine reclaiming some of that authenticity 546 00:31:54,076 --> 00:31:56,076 Speaker 1: down the road, what would it look like? 547 00:31:56,516 --> 00:32:00,236 Speaker 2: Okay, because I've thought about this at nauseum, I'll tell 548 00:32:00,276 --> 00:32:04,916 Speaker 2: you I think all the time about Emily Dickinson. Okay, 549 00:32:04,916 --> 00:32:06,476 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's the right way to go is 550 00:32:06,516 --> 00:32:08,476 Speaker 2: to like hide all your writing away in a drawer 551 00:32:08,556 --> 00:32:09,996 Speaker 2: and never put it out there. 552 00:32:10,036 --> 00:32:14,876 Speaker 3: But it's so badass. She was just doing it for herself. 553 00:32:15,276 --> 00:32:17,236 Speaker 2: I mean, she kind of arranged them so after she 554 00:32:17,316 --> 00:32:19,596 Speaker 2: was dead, she would like she was like and then 555 00:32:19,596 --> 00:32:21,916 Speaker 2: first this and then I mean it feels like maybe 556 00:32:21,956 --> 00:32:23,076 Speaker 2: she she was. 557 00:32:23,076 --> 00:32:26,756 Speaker 1: A little more like us than she le Okay. 558 00:32:26,356 --> 00:32:29,116 Speaker 2: I think so, you know, I think about what is 559 00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:31,276 Speaker 2: the version of that. It's like writing a poem and 560 00:32:31,316 --> 00:32:32,196 Speaker 2: then burning it. 561 00:32:32,716 --> 00:32:34,516 Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's not good either. 562 00:32:34,556 --> 00:32:36,636 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's like the right thing to do, 563 00:32:36,756 --> 00:32:39,356 Speaker 2: but that's the only way I would ever not was 564 00:32:39,356 --> 00:32:40,036 Speaker 2: for myself. 565 00:32:40,596 --> 00:32:42,756 Speaker 1: It's the equivalent of like if a tree falls in 566 00:32:42,796 --> 00:32:44,036 Speaker 1: a force and no one was there to hear it 567 00:32:44,076 --> 00:32:45,836 Speaker 1: did to make a sound. It's if I wrote something 568 00:32:45,876 --> 00:32:48,396 Speaker 1: and no one read it. Was it even written? Did 569 00:32:48,396 --> 00:32:51,156 Speaker 1: it even matter? Was I just wasting my time? Because 570 00:32:51,156 --> 00:32:55,036 Speaker 1: we're so utility focused in terms of like push stuff out, 571 00:32:55,076 --> 00:32:58,396 Speaker 1: push stuff out, get it out there, we forget about 572 00:32:58,676 --> 00:33:03,276 Speaker 1: intrinsic motivators and like the intrinsic value of creating art. 573 00:33:03,636 --> 00:33:07,796 Speaker 2: That's it, that's my That's like the only test where 574 00:33:07,836 --> 00:33:10,276 Speaker 2: I would know that I was being. 575 00:33:11,676 --> 00:33:11,756 Speaker 3: That. 576 00:33:11,796 --> 00:33:15,716 Speaker 2: I wasn't like capitalizing, because art is really just like 577 00:33:15,956 --> 00:33:19,556 Speaker 2: getting it out, getting something out for no other reason 578 00:33:19,556 --> 00:33:26,796 Speaker 2: than getting it out. I do think that that is 579 00:33:26,836 --> 00:33:30,756 Speaker 2: the most pure version of who I would am, or 580 00:33:30,796 --> 00:33:32,876 Speaker 2: would want to be, or was meant to be, is 581 00:33:32,956 --> 00:33:35,796 Speaker 2: just making something and then putting it away and never 582 00:33:36,076 --> 00:33:38,476 Speaker 2: using it, using it, using it. 583 00:33:38,876 --> 00:33:42,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to jump to twenty sixteen. You're in 584 00:33:42,316 --> 00:33:45,636 Speaker 1: your forties, you have the successful blog, you're a best 585 00:33:45,676 --> 00:33:48,996 Speaker 1: selling author, you're still with your husband at the time, Craig, 586 00:33:49,636 --> 00:33:54,836 Speaker 1: and then you end up meeting Abby soccer player, two 587 00:33:54,876 --> 00:33:57,676 Speaker 1: time Olympic gold medalists. So like, to all of us 588 00:33:57,716 --> 00:33:59,716 Speaker 1: it's like have you want back, oh my gosh, athlete, 589 00:33:59,716 --> 00:34:01,356 Speaker 1: and to you it was like love of your life. 590 00:34:01,396 --> 00:34:04,716 Speaker 1: So can you just for all the hopeless romantics out there, 591 00:34:04,916 --> 00:34:08,156 Speaker 1: just first tell me about that initial interaction with Avi. 592 00:34:08,676 --> 00:34:11,476 Speaker 2: Oh my god, oh god, my h okay, all right, 593 00:34:11,516 --> 00:34:13,796 Speaker 2: So first you have to know that I was doing 594 00:34:13,836 --> 00:34:16,676 Speaker 2: my first event for Love Warrior, which was a book 595 00:34:16,716 --> 00:34:18,476 Speaker 2: about the redemption of my. 596 00:34:18,516 --> 00:34:20,796 Speaker 3: Marriage to your husband, and. 597 00:34:20,756 --> 00:34:24,676 Speaker 2: My marriage was just I was like forcing it, man, 598 00:34:24,996 --> 00:34:27,676 Speaker 2: I was really forcing it for a lot of reasons. 599 00:34:27,676 --> 00:34:31,596 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. But I was at the first event. 600 00:34:32,796 --> 00:34:36,796 Speaker 2: Abby walked into the room. I was at a table 601 00:34:36,836 --> 00:34:42,396 Speaker 2: full of writers. Abby stands in the door. I've never 602 00:34:42,476 --> 00:34:45,236 Speaker 2: kissed a girl before. I've never I didn't I wouldn't 603 00:34:45,276 --> 00:34:49,036 Speaker 2: have known queerness to I was a Christian writer with 604 00:34:49,076 --> 00:34:51,356 Speaker 2: three children. I was a Sunday school teacher in one 605 00:34:51,396 --> 00:34:54,196 Speaker 2: of the most conservative counties in Florida. 606 00:34:54,356 --> 00:34:56,396 Speaker 3: This was my life. 607 00:34:56,716 --> 00:35:00,036 Speaker 2: And I saw Abby, and the next thing I knew, 608 00:35:00,076 --> 00:35:02,276 Speaker 2: I was standing up at the table with my arms 609 00:35:02,316 --> 00:35:02,956 Speaker 2: wide open. 610 00:35:04,196 --> 00:35:05,156 Speaker 3: I actually bowed. 611 00:35:05,396 --> 00:35:08,036 Speaker 2: I bowed, hoping like maybe people think I'm just weird 612 00:35:08,076 --> 00:35:08,876 Speaker 2: and I do bows. 613 00:35:09,196 --> 00:35:10,076 Speaker 3: People walk in the room. 614 00:35:10,116 --> 00:35:11,836 Speaker 2: So it's a family joke for us now, like when 615 00:35:11,876 --> 00:35:14,356 Speaker 2: someone walks into a room, my son will bow. Anyway, 616 00:35:16,276 --> 00:35:18,036 Speaker 2: I love it now because I was like, Oh, my 617 00:35:18,116 --> 00:35:23,796 Speaker 2: body knew. My body knew that something really important was 618 00:35:23,796 --> 00:35:26,556 Speaker 2: happening before my mind did, which for me maybe that 619 00:35:26,636 --> 00:35:28,116 Speaker 2: was the first time that had ever happened that I 620 00:35:28,116 --> 00:35:33,916 Speaker 2: had trusted a bodily reaction. We had a couple exchanges 621 00:35:33,996 --> 00:35:37,516 Speaker 2: that night. It was at a librarian's convention. She had 622 00:35:37,556 --> 00:35:40,156 Speaker 2: just gotten sober, she had just retired, she was having 623 00:35:40,316 --> 00:35:43,876 Speaker 2: a big change which was causing a major identity crisis. 624 00:35:44,836 --> 00:35:49,236 Speaker 2: We started emailing after that day, which was interesting because 625 00:35:49,236 --> 00:35:51,236 Speaker 2: we fell in love through writing where it could be 626 00:35:51,316 --> 00:35:52,756 Speaker 2: my actual real self. 627 00:35:52,876 --> 00:35:56,356 Speaker 1: Wow, oh how interesting. Yeah, so she got to know 628 00:35:56,436 --> 00:35:56,956 Speaker 1: the real you. 629 00:35:57,396 --> 00:35:57,716 Speaker 3: Yes. 630 00:35:58,796 --> 00:36:01,556 Speaker 2: We had been emailing for maybe two months, and then 631 00:36:01,596 --> 00:36:04,956 Speaker 2: I or a month maybe it was a month I 632 00:36:04,996 --> 00:36:08,916 Speaker 2: realized I was in love with her. I also realized 633 00:36:09,196 --> 00:36:11,436 Speaker 2: that it was never going to work, Like it was 634 00:36:11,476 --> 00:36:13,076 Speaker 2: never going we were never going to have a future. 635 00:36:13,116 --> 00:36:15,356 Speaker 2: I mean, I was who I was in my life 636 00:36:15,836 --> 00:36:20,316 Speaker 2: with three children with it. But I definitively remember talking 637 00:36:20,396 --> 00:36:22,156 Speaker 2: to a dear friend and saying, it doesn't matter whether 638 00:36:22,156 --> 00:36:24,436 Speaker 2: it works, because now I know that this thing is real, 639 00:36:24,636 --> 00:36:26,636 Speaker 2: Like I know that what I have is not this, 640 00:36:28,356 --> 00:36:30,676 Speaker 2: Like now I know what the misery is about, because 641 00:36:30,676 --> 00:36:33,676 Speaker 2: there is a real thing that people feel, and I'm 642 00:36:33,716 --> 00:36:35,596 Speaker 2: feeling it, so it doesn't matter if this works out, 643 00:36:35,596 --> 00:36:38,356 Speaker 2: I can't go back to that. So I ended my marriage. 644 00:36:38,356 --> 00:36:40,036 Speaker 2: We had never seen each other in person, We had 645 00:36:40,076 --> 00:36:43,916 Speaker 2: never had a moment in person. That first night when 646 00:36:43,916 --> 00:36:45,476 Speaker 2: we met, we just were kind of like, woo, what 647 00:36:45,636 --> 00:36:45,876 Speaker 2: is this? 648 00:36:46,316 --> 00:36:49,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I. 649 00:36:48,956 --> 00:36:52,116 Speaker 2: Told Craig I was leaving him. This is all before 650 00:36:52,156 --> 00:36:55,956 Speaker 2: we ever kissed or touched or saw each other again. 651 00:36:55,996 --> 00:36:58,756 Speaker 2: After that night, I talked to my kids about it, 652 00:36:58,796 --> 00:37:00,756 Speaker 2: said the marriage was over. It was the most brutal 653 00:37:00,836 --> 00:37:03,956 Speaker 2: day of my life telling them that, And then I 654 00:37:03,996 --> 00:37:08,996 Speaker 2: flew to La to see if what all of these 655 00:37:09,476 --> 00:37:11,876 Speaker 2: were correct, to test it all out. 656 00:37:13,076 --> 00:37:16,276 Speaker 1: And which is not the normal order of operations. 657 00:37:16,276 --> 00:37:19,356 Speaker 3: It's just for the record. Yeah, no, no, it wasn't. 658 00:37:20,756 --> 00:37:23,796 Speaker 2: But it was like another cafeteria moment, right. It's like 659 00:37:23,916 --> 00:37:29,316 Speaker 2: sometimes in order to know not this, you have to 660 00:37:29,396 --> 00:37:32,756 Speaker 2: have some experience of yes, this inside your body, like 661 00:37:33,276 --> 00:37:37,636 Speaker 2: you don't blow something up even if it's hurting you 662 00:37:37,676 --> 00:37:41,156 Speaker 2: sometimes until there's hope. That's why when people ask me 663 00:37:41,156 --> 00:37:44,916 Speaker 2: the really honest question of like, well, that was brave 664 00:37:44,996 --> 00:37:46,516 Speaker 2: that you did that, But do you think you ever 665 00:37:46,556 --> 00:37:49,476 Speaker 2: would have left had there been no Abby? I don't 666 00:37:49,516 --> 00:37:52,076 Speaker 2: have an honest answer to that question, I don't know, 667 00:37:52,876 --> 00:37:56,636 Speaker 2: Like maybe I just would have kept kind of suffering silently, 668 00:37:56,756 --> 00:38:00,316 Speaker 2: and or maybe the thing would have grown in me 669 00:38:00,476 --> 00:38:03,476 Speaker 2: enough to not be able to take it anymore. But 670 00:38:03,556 --> 00:38:05,156 Speaker 2: I don't know that that's true. 671 00:38:05,476 --> 00:38:05,916 Speaker 3: I don't know. 672 00:38:07,036 --> 00:38:11,396 Speaker 1: You know, as I reflect on our conversation, glennon one 673 00:38:11,396 --> 00:38:13,956 Speaker 1: thing that's so beautiful to me about your story when 674 00:38:13,956 --> 00:38:17,836 Speaker 1: it comes to feeling comfortable and at peace with yourself 675 00:38:17,876 --> 00:38:21,556 Speaker 1: and at home and your body. You're a constant work 676 00:38:21,596 --> 00:38:24,316 Speaker 1: in progress, right, I mean, you found these pockets of 677 00:38:24,356 --> 00:38:27,316 Speaker 1: life right like writing and with Abby where you've just 678 00:38:27,396 --> 00:38:29,636 Speaker 1: sparkled and it's like, yay, okay, great, I got the 679 00:38:29,636 --> 00:38:33,196 Speaker 1: finish line. But then a new thing hits you and 680 00:38:33,236 --> 00:38:36,996 Speaker 1: it humbles you again, Like recently you've talked about getting 681 00:38:37,076 --> 00:38:41,916 Speaker 1: an anorexia diagnosis, and so how are you learning to 682 00:38:41,956 --> 00:38:45,396 Speaker 1: make peace with the fact that there likely won't be 683 00:38:45,516 --> 00:38:49,116 Speaker 1: that final redemption story. Do you have any advice for 684 00:38:49,236 --> 00:38:52,116 Speaker 1: listeners who feel the same way. 685 00:38:52,756 --> 00:38:54,996 Speaker 2: Well, I think some of us are just humped back 686 00:38:55,036 --> 00:38:59,196 Speaker 2: whales maya. I think that some of us are just 687 00:38:59,316 --> 00:39:03,876 Speaker 2: born with one thing that is just a big question 688 00:39:04,876 --> 00:39:07,556 Speaker 2: that we just spiral around it over and over again, 689 00:39:07,596 --> 00:39:10,276 Speaker 2: and I think it's a spyling. But I do feel 690 00:39:10,276 --> 00:39:12,516 Speaker 2: like an ascension with the spiraling. I think I'm getting 691 00:39:12,596 --> 00:39:15,716 Speaker 2: better views each time. I think I'm learning new things 692 00:39:15,756 --> 00:39:19,476 Speaker 2: each time. I think having a singular story it's kind 693 00:39:19,476 --> 00:39:21,996 Speaker 2: of interesting because if you're singing a certain song, then 694 00:39:22,276 --> 00:39:24,116 Speaker 2: that's how you find the other people who are also 695 00:39:24,156 --> 00:39:24,836 Speaker 2: singing that song. 696 00:39:24,876 --> 00:39:26,356 Speaker 3: That kind of draws them to you. 697 00:39:27,276 --> 00:39:29,596 Speaker 2: But I have just figured that out just this time, 698 00:39:29,716 --> 00:39:30,996 Speaker 2: that I'm never going to figure it out. 699 00:39:31,156 --> 00:39:31,916 Speaker 3: So that's freeing. 700 00:39:32,236 --> 00:39:33,716 Speaker 1: That's great progress. 701 00:39:34,356 --> 00:39:34,596 Speaker 3: I know. 702 00:39:35,076 --> 00:40:01,556 Speaker 1: I love it. Victory laugh. Hey, thanks so much for listening, 703 00:40:01,996 --> 00:40:04,596 Speaker 1: and just a reminder, you can pre order my new book, 704 00:40:04,716 --> 00:40:06,716 Speaker 1: The Other Side of Change at the link in our 705 00:40:06,716 --> 00:40:10,676 Speaker 1: episode description or a change with my com slash book 706 00:40:13,996 --> 00:40:16,756 Speaker 1: and enjoin me next time when we explore what happens 707 00:40:16,796 --> 00:40:20,076 Speaker 1: when two people live through the same traumatic event but 708 00:40:20,236 --> 00:40:24,876 Speaker 1: have wildly different responses. We'll hear from world renowned climber 709 00:40:24,996 --> 00:40:28,316 Speaker 1: Beth Rawdon, who is kidnapped and held hostage with her 710 00:40:28,356 --> 00:40:33,316 Speaker 1: partner Tommy Caldwell on a climbing expedition in Kyrgyzstan. Tommy 711 00:40:33,316 --> 00:40:36,716 Speaker 1: and I never talked about Kurrysion. We never talked about 712 00:40:37,836 --> 00:40:42,636 Speaker 1: my nightmares, my paranoia, my fear. That's next time on 713 00:40:42,716 --> 00:40:46,916 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans. I'll see you then. A 714 00:40:46,956 --> 00:40:50,476 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced 715 00:40:50,476 --> 00:40:53,876 Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our 716 00:40:53,916 --> 00:40:58,556 Speaker 1: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our 717 00:40:58,596 --> 00:41:02,716 Speaker 1: producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubin, and our sound engineer 718 00:41:02,876 --> 00:41:06,756 Speaker 1: Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and 719 00:41:06,876 --> 00:41:09,996 Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 720 00:41:10,036 --> 00:41:13,476 Speaker 1: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks 721 00:41:13,476 --> 00:41:16,956 Speaker 1: to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks 722 00:41:16,996 --> 00:41:19,596 Speaker 1: to Jimmy Leef. You can follow a Slight Change of 723 00:41:19,596 --> 00:41:23,236 Speaker 1: Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.