WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 28 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.119 there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:27.600 can make your own decisions. Robert Evans here and welcome 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.320 to it could happen here a podcast about how things 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.919 are falling apart and how to maybe put them back together. Obviously, 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.640 the biggest story probably in the world right now is 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.879 the ongoing invasion of Ukraine. In a major corollarrea of 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:44.080 that story is how dramatically things in Russia have taken 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.440 a turn for the totalitarian um. The country has become 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.400 increasingly isolated from most of the global community. This is 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:52.800 due to a mix of sanctions to a lot of 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.600 businesses pulling out just because of the social consequences of 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.600 not doing so, uh end of policies that have been 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:03.560 put down by Putin's government in order to crack down 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:07.000 on dissent and further remove Russia from any kind of 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.280 contact with the West. UM. As a result, it's kind 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.679 of difficult to get in touch with people who are 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:17.919 resisting Putin's government from within Russia. UM anarchist activists in particular, 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.759 UM are not easy people to reach. However, we did 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.000 recently sit down with one of these individuals and talk 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:27.840 to them, so this episode will both be an interview 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:30.160 with that person and a bit of history about the 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:34.280 anarchist movements within Russia. Russia has actually a very long 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.000 history of anarchist organizing. Two of them in generally considered 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:42.200 foundational thinkers and anarchists political theory. Mikhail Bakunin and Peter 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:46.520 Kropotkin were both born in Russia. Both lived and agitated 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.800 under the Tsars. Bakunan was an advocate and a major 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:54.040 theorist of political terrorism. He fled the country, was returned, 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.680 and ultimately spent like ten years in prison there. Kropotkin 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:01.200 was the author of a seminal anarcho munist text titled 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:03.880 The Conquest of Bread, and he was only able to 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:07.559 return to Russia after the nineteen seventeen Revolution. He died 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.920 there in nineteen twenty one. It's also worth noting that 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:14.480 Peter Kropotkin is canonically the ancestor to Tommy Pickles of 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:16.960 the rug Rats, but that's something you can look up 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:19.560 on your own now. While some of the most influential 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.960 anarchists in history were Russian and anarchist organizing was a 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.520 potent part of pre nineteen seventeen Russian political history, the 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.840 success of the Bolsheviks after nineteen seventeen led to the 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:34.720 movements near annihilation. Um Emma Goldman was yet another major anarchist, 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:37.400 activist and thinker who was born and educated in Russia. 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.240 She immigrated to the United States in eighteen eighty five, 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.200 where she promptly helped try to assassinate a steel magnate 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:47.120 in revenge for his brutality against striking workers. Goldman grew 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:50.079 to prominence as a labor activist and women's rights activist 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.040 in the last decade of the eighteen hundreds. In nineteen 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.720 o one, her work helped inspire Leon Chogosh to assassinate 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:01.320 President William McKinley. While Emma Goldman had no direct connection 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:05.520 to Chogash, she defended his actions by saying, as an anarchist, 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.079 I am opposed to violence, but if the people want 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.800 to do away with assassins. They must do away with 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:14.720 the conditions which produced murderers. There's much more to say 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.280 about him, Agoldman, but for our purposes, what matters is 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:19.680 that she was arrested for opposing the draft in World 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.520 War One and eventually deported back to Russia. Right after 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.920 the revolution. Goldman was initially psyched that the czars had 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.280 been deposed, but quickly became disillusioned by the violence of 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:33.480 the forming totalitarian Soviet state. She considered this a betrayal 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:35.640 of the revolution and wrote a series of articles for 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:37.520 The New York World that have gone down as one 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.400 of the first expose as of conditions in the Soviet Union. 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:44.680 Goldman's work was criticized by many left wing intellectuals outside 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.720 of Russia, but she was correct about political repression in 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:51.560 the new Bolshevik workers paradise. Matters did not improve for 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.280 anarchists in the first twenty years of the new regime. 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.800 In nineteen thirty seven, in his History of Anarchism in Russia, E. 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.680 Yorroslansky wrote, in the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, at 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:06.000 the present time, the anarchists no longer enjoy any influence 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:10.040 over the masses. They are met with only as isolated individualists. 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.360 The fall of the Soviet Union, the coming of democracy, 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.080 and the slow rise to power of Vladimir Putin did 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.600 not enormously alter this state of affairs. Russian anarchists still 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.479 exercise relatively little influence over the masses. Most of them 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.800 struggle towards autonomy as isolated individuals. In March of twenty 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.080 twenty two, in the third week of the Russian invasion 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.479 of Ukraine, I sat down with one of these people. 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.640 We had been chatting online through Reddit for a couple 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.160 of weeks, and the process of setting up a proper 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.720 audio interview was difficult. To say the least repression of 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.560 all political descent under Putin is extreme. More than thirteen 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:50.479 thousand people were arrested at anti war protests in the 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.600 first two weeks of the war, so you will understand 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.880 why our source was paranoid about his identity. I had 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.279 to download a secure app I'd never even heard of before, 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:01.400 and he only agreed to speak with me while using 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:05.280 a voice changing application to further disguise his identity. Due 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.280 to the difficulties this created, I will be paraphrasing him 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:10.640 and quoting his words myself at a couple of points 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.640 here in order to make listening to this a more 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:19.599 comfortable experience. But here he is okay, polytics or what 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:37.839 years or so it's bicycle and into weak two years ago. 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:44.880 Was so, just to make it clear, he's saying that 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.520 he's been involved in anarchist organizing for more than a 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:51.200 decade since around two thousand eleven. The initial cell he 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:56.360 organized with was affiliated with an umbrella organization called Autonomous Action. 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:58.800 We'll talk about them more in a minute, but it's 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.880 important you understand his cell, at about fifty people strong, 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:11.599 was considered quite large for Russia in Moscow inspects. I 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:20.479 guess in the artists in links whatever, or they were 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:29.680 worked for rent of course, and there were more or 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:41.000 I wasn't considered even in two thousand eleven, organizing as 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.359 an anarchist was rather risky. As a result, our source 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.360 actually started his career in activism on his own. As 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.680 a single protester. He would stand out in public places, 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.680 sometimes during other protests, sometimes on his own, holding a 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.480 sign that said in Russian peace to the world. Now 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.839 I'm reading you the English translation of what he put 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.840 the literal Russian words that he had on his sign 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.520 were a reference to a famous Soviet slogan officially adopted 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.440 in nineteen fifty one. The phrase actually has a much 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.760 older origin in the country, which begins under the Orthodox 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:18.200 Church and grew more popular among revolutionaries after the February Revolution. 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.400 The first leftist to use peace to the World as 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:25.320 a slogan in Russia may have actually been a f Krinsky, 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:28.240 who headed the brief democratic government that ran things after 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.880 the czar stepped down. In our sources case, his sign 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:34.000 was an act of protest against a number of things, 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.400 including the recent Russian invasion of Georgia and Russian military 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:50.720 operations in Syria. Oscar Pass questions against the stuff stuff 0:07:52.240 --> 0:08:22.560 uh almost or Winter sent home. After he'd been seen 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:25.160 doing this for a while, members of a local anarchist 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.320 self found this person and started asking them questions, Hey, 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.360 who are you, what are you doing? What do you 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:32.880 think of this? And that he was not specific about 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.120 the individual political questions they answered, and we probably don't 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:38.920 need to get into that. They invited him eventually to 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.000 a building where a number of them tended to gather 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.160 and prepare for actions. In short order, they started organizing together. 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.400 At the time our source started organizing as an anarchist. 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:52.439 The most notorious recent action was the Kimki forest conflict. 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.679 In brief, Kimki is a forest with a long history 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.200 as in nature preserve. It's kind of outside of Moscow. 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.280 It's so densely forest that in the sixteen hundreds and 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:03.480 then in the early eighteen hundreds, when the Russians were 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.880 resisting Napoleon, it was used by partisans and insurgents as 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.680 a base of operations. When the Bolsheviks took over, it 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:11.800 was preserved to act as a sort of open air 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:15.960 therapy center for tuberculosis patients. In the early two thousands, 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.880 local city planners started to advocate for a toll road 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.600 to be built through the middle of the forest. Their 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.280 argument was that a large amount of traffic passed through 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:26.920 the Leningrad Highway and that had caused huge amounts of 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.840 air pollution in the city of Kimki. Since the forest 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.840 was protected by national environmental codes, turning it into a 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:37.080 road was a long political process. Activists protested, arguing that 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.040 it would be an environmental disaster which spoilers. It was 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:43.000 like anarchists in the United States in the period before 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.719 the Green Scare, Russian anarchists carried out a series of 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:49.319 occupation actions to try and protect the wild lands. So 0:09:51.720 --> 0:10:12.360 it was ver it was against lance podcast or inflection, 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:29.520 oh fascists, the shield someone in the trains once in 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:36.760 the end, it was in two twelve, shortly after our 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:40.439 source began participating in anarchist demonstrations, the government carried out 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:45.679 a major crackdown against certain anarchist activists. They focused primarily 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.400 on groups and individuals who were doing things like making 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.280 Molotov cocktails and engaging in property destruction. Now our source 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.520 participated in food not bombs and other non aggressive types 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.240 of direct action, most of which involved handing out food 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.040 and supplies to people who are helping them to get resources. 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:05.200 He did not disavow insurrectionary anarchists the kind of people 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.040 who threw bombs, but that wasn't the kind of thing 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:10.199 he did, and he didn't have a lot of connections 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.920 with those people because roughly a year after he started 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.920 organizing as an anarchist, most of them in his area 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.600 at least got cracked down on and either killed, forced 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:21.480 out of the country, or arrested by the government. This 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:25.040 crackdown on insurrectionary Russian anarchists led to an even more 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.560 paranoid security culture. Among those who remained. Our source and 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:32.040 his comrades mostly distributed food, but they also provided support 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:34.600 for a large number of children whose families had abandoned 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:37.280 them due to crushing poverty. Even though these things were 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.280 not illegal, they had to maintain intense security culture to 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:48.920 avoid being part of future crackdowns. First, don't talk to 0:11:49.040 --> 0:12:04.600 anyone or special companization. No, don't care, don't get them. 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:09.960 Infresition means no one. Long standing tradition among Russian anarchists 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.280 was a sort of defensive isolation. People gave each other 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.600 as little information as possible about their real identities. As 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.000 a result, despite the fact that he has participated in 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.240 multiple protests since the invasion of Ukraine and people have 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:25.200 been arrested at those protests, our source insists that he 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.360 doesn't know if any of his comrades have been taken 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.160 into custody. Now. Some of this probably has to do 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:34.040 with the fact that he's not organizing in a major city, um, 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.040 but a lot of it probably has to do with 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:39.960 the fact that he just doesn't particularly know any people 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.960 by name. Polls, which are imperfect but cannot be entirely 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.120 discounted suggest that most Russian civilians support the war and 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.040 their military. Even so, the scope and scale of the 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.560 anti war protests in Russia have beggared anything from recent memory. 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.480 Our source says that this has actually helped to mitigate 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.720 some of the despair you might expect Russian anarchists to feel, 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.720 given the Titanic increase in state repression. From what I 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:09.439 know from what I see, monitor uh Alsto came to 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:15.280 get to get help at last. An artists there if 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:20.320 maybe won't hear go or real they were just like, oh, 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:24.760 come on, we can do it all everything and we'll 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:29.720 just again the NFSP won't find us whatever. No, there 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:34.320 is no despair at last, we don't see it. There 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.000 are lots of action. There are lots of preparation from 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:41.000 what I understand, or not only artists, but all the 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.680 radical firms or gathering in Russia or in Moscow, in 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:51.440 Saint Aspera obviously because the most epicenter of everything there 0:13:52.040 --> 0:14:04.480 not not on the ragons. I guess, oh yeah, soustraints. 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.920 So it's probably time that we talk about autonomous action 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.960 or a D. The Revolutionary Anarchist Federation that our friend 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:16.600 and his comrades are affiliated with a D actually has 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.000 members in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. It was founded in 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.080 two thousand two and briefly had affiliates in Armenia before 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.320 they disbanded in two thousand five. That's a story in 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.000 and of itself. A D advocates direct action in order 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.520 to quote create a tradition and basis for a new 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:38.680 humanist culture, social self organization and radical resistance against militarism, capitalism, sexism, 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.920 and fascism. They consider the existing government of Russia as 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:47.479 entirely illegitimate. They refused to take part in Russian electoral politics, 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.880 seeing even left wing opposition parties as essentially controlled by 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:54.680 Putin and only existing to provide a sham vision of choice. 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.920 A D activists called themselves the Autonomy and see their 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.880 calling is twofold, to exist as autonomous, free individuals within 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.400 an unfree system and to spread revolutionary sentiment and weaken 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.200 the state. Much has been said in the West of 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:13.160 Alexei Navalny, a Russian opposition politician who, whatever else you 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.800 might say about him, is certainly not controlled opposition. He 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.920 has survived an assassination attempt by the Putin regime and 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:23.240 is currently incarcerated after leaving his exile in the West 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.920 to return to Russia and fight the sham case against 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.000 him in court. No one can doubt that Navalny possesses 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.840 significant physical courage, and it seems fair to say the 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.360 man believes in what he says, AIDI Activists, from what 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.480 I have seen, do not fault him in his willingness 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:39.960 to suffer for his beliefs, but they believe that he 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:44.160 is at the very least deeply misguided. Navalny, they say, 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.440 holds to a fundamentally errant belief that Russia could ever 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:51.680 be a parliamentary democracy in the Western tradition. Their argument 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:55.560 is that corruption, investigations and electoralism are useless in Russia 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.640 and always have been, and from a historical standpoint, it 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.720 is difficult to argue with these claims. Autonomous Action members 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.440 do not support the Ukrainian state, and I have read 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:07.760 articles from them where they describe the conflict in the 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.040 Dawn Bass, which simmered for eight years before exploding into 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:15.360 the current conflagration, as two fascist paramilitary forces backed by 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:19.480 two capitalist governments. However, they have been consistent for years 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.440 that the proper stance of Russian anarchists is to support 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:26.440 the Ukrainian people against aggression from the Russian state. Before 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.560 Putin commenced his broader invasion. In February of this year, 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:33.600 Autonomous Action published an article with the title why we 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.800 should support Ukraine quote Putin is not just the gendarme 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.080 of Europe, but the gendarme of the whole world, from 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.640 Syria to Myanmar. Whenever a dictator tortures and kills thousands 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.400 of his old people, Putin is there to support him. 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.160 There are no elections in Russia anymore. Even the most 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:53.000 moderate attempts to change something results in criminal cases and persecutions. 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:55.240 I do not believe that the result of this yet 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.240 another round of threatening declarations and building up pressure, is 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.440 a full scale war, But as the conflict is not disappearing, 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.359 a full scale war may start after five to ten years, 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.280 even as a result of a cycle of escalation, even 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.800 if no one really wants it. And in case of 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.719 a full scale war, we should be on the Ukrainian side. 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.159 As Mala Testa said, for me, there is no doubt 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.480 that the worst of democracies is always preferable, if only 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.119 from the educational point of view, then the best of 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:26.400 dictatorships neutrality and a war between Ukraine and Russia would 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.200 mean neutrality in an invasion of a democracy by a dictatorship. 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.959 Now our source concurs with the extant evidence that Russian 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.280 citizens still broadly support the war. As I stated earlier, 0:17:49.160 --> 0:18:00.879 nant attacking Russia with Nost don't know. He was certain 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.560 to acknowledge that there's still a great deal of propaganda, 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:07.080 largely pro NATO propaganda on the anti war side of things. 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.080 Given the information situation within his country, he admitted that 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.480 he'd had difficulty parsing some things out, while acknowledging that 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.600 his side also lacked perfect information. He felt that their 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.240 stance against the war was safe because in the end 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:27.880 it opposed blood letting. We can claim on the kind 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:36.600 of waganda or the West are crowing, sam If even 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:40.400 if you're under some kind of waganda, even West Western 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:45.639 is basically a case as well, you're still of this 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:53.720 your side because you don't want to. He did admit 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:55.840 that a number of people in his life, family and 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.080 close friends, knew about his political sympathies, and he claims 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:01.440 that the outbreak of war are in the massive futalitarian 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.359 swing Putin has taken over the last month have caused 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:06.800 some of these people to be more open to his beliefs. 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.120 So I'm kind of open just on talking to one 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:16.200 w one of the people much pants. Oh my friends, 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.400 do you know what what kind of stuff what I'm 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:32.000 into or the war or the just came to me. However, personally, Hey, 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:36.280 you've been precurring for that, so for years you've been 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.640 telling us, hold us for years. I thought you BERNOI 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:46.120 and not understand. You're right, wander water. So we don't 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:52.800 have people know about what gives no the picture At 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:56.720 the moment. The political situation within Russia is tremendously uncertain. 0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:59.560 All manner of dubious sources have claimed that a palace 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.160 coup is in the offering or has been attempted. Some 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.720 have even spoken of the possibility of a revolution, or 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:08.159 at least a massive protest campaign that forces Putin from office. 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.800 Our source did not consider that likely in the unlikely 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.640 event the government collapsed entirely. He was not particularly optimistic 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:21.720 about what might result. You mentioned the central Wist governments 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:48.880 and there is no they just just or oh, it's 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:55.439 a science. He mentioned me that a number of his 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:57.760 loved ones had come forward recently to ask what they 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:00.280 ought to do. I asked how he responded it to 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:04.160 that question. Right now, we try to organize and help 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:08.680 you all because there is a there is a chance 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:14.600 or currency local stuffing, and we'll just need to survive. 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:23.560 That's the first thing. Quick, So organization and interactions are 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:27.680 available than any currents or now for well, I see 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.480 it with the way. Uh. Second thing is that we 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:38.160 need to training or start. I guess there is there 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:43.800 is a term in English case the very weak don't 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:48.960 pour when you have all infrastructure. Basically, for now we 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:55.560 need to have from enough folding of water points we 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.879 all can train even with the form rooms people to 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.439 cularly mentioned the revolutionary importance of finding some way to 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:07.080 either smuggle or produce medical supplies and medications. He knows 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:09.639 one person who already had to flee the country because 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:11.960 his wife could no longer get the medicine she needed. 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:15.200 He mentioned the sanctions levied against Russia as a major 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.199 issue for regular working people, but when I asked what 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:21.280 he felt Western countries could do in this conflict, he 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:24.800 was actually quite focused on something else. Entirely. He believes 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:27.800 the United States has access to high quality satellite images 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:29.600 of what happened in the immediate lead up to the 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:33.320 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Putin's government justified much of their 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:36.199 invasion on so called attacks from the Ukrainian government that 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:39.840 they claim it escalated against the separatist regions. Our source 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:59.480 believes his government is lying about this law or point 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:10.800 many states, so here's the same thing, or yeah, we 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:19.080 need to cover of course it's been goin So it's 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:24.720 I don't believe that Ukraine or being with let's say, 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:30.639 let's a military power compared to Russia or not. So 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:38.320 she stuff yea, so we didn't need those things covered 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:43.760 published at least maybe not as long as possibly canst 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:49.320 still walking on would at least it's helpful people see 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:55.640 you get there are points queer from crom It's pretty good. 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:59.040 Since the invasion, it has gotten notably harder, but not 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:02.320 impossibly hard for Russian citizens to get information about the 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:05.320 conflict that does not come from the Kremlin. Our starts 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:08.200 explained how he does it a combination of using VPNs 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:12.200 and understanding the nature of authoritarian propaganda. In short, even 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:14.440 when the government is lying to you, you can get 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:16.919 an idea of what the truth is by understanding what 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:28.720 they want you to believe, work stuff, all sources, what 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:35.919 science I saw it, or Korean side, Russian side, great side. 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:43.720 Oh so find and staff as well. I don't really 0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:54.840 believe me. Let's see firsts because they are past. They 0:24:55.200 --> 0:25:01.240 say what's goins? What's they're trying to contain to points? 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:10.240 Or if you have a say okay, let's put this one. Uh. 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:19.800 When Russian Ministry of Foreign offers selling or solution and 0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:26.360 at the same time we hear all the Syrians, Syrian 0:25:26.720 --> 0:25:31.639 or mercenaries are going to rail uh. For for me, 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:34.560 it means one thing they want to us Paul or 0:25:34.600 --> 0:25:40.280 the pointing to get some time, so professional sources or 0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:45.960 council racially. He felt that one way US activists could 0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:49.120 be helpful to Russian activists was by continuing to document 0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:52.280 and study the different munitions and tactics used by police 0:25:52.320 --> 0:25:55.720 in cracking down on demonstrations. He noticed that Russian police 0:25:55.800 --> 0:25:58.080 used similar and sometimes even the same weapons to the 0:25:58.080 --> 0:26:01.560 ones that the US police used on out in protests. 0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:04.920 He believes the documentation done to study these weapons is 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:08.479 helpful to people all around the world. He expressed some 0:26:08.520 --> 0:26:11.440 frustration at friends and colleagues of his who after years 0:26:11.440 --> 0:26:13.840 of failing to truly grapple with the degree to which 0:26:13.840 --> 0:26:17.240 Putin had centralized power. We're now fleeing Russia to avoid 0:26:17.280 --> 0:26:23.960 living under an increasingly totalitarian state. A swampoint colleagues, I 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:30.040 guess of her radio whatever trying to support me like 0:26:34.359 --> 0:26:43.240 stuff scoring along the sports Russians. Yes, if that's for him, 0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:54.920 trying to blame him expence, And that's why against this, 0:26:55.480 --> 0:27:01.199 before against the commons, he has decided to stay and 0:27:01.280 --> 0:27:04.320 to resist. While he has admitted to now studying martial 0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:07.240 arts and military tactics, he did not have high hopes 0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:10.199 for any kind of confrontation with the Russian state, and 0:27:10.280 --> 0:27:12.800 as a generally peaceable person, he has decided that he 0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:14.919 will continue to resist in the way that makes the 0:27:14.920 --> 0:27:17.840 most sense to him, by helping people and providing them 0:27:17.840 --> 0:27:20.480 with things that they will increasingly need. Is the economic 0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:24.560 situation in Russia degrades further for me? How many people 0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:35.919 most kind of since constant sense of that's for at 0:27:36.000 --> 0:27:44.040 least six years or one. Uh. But then understood that 0:27:46.200 --> 0:27:49.600 once a thing about archists and wish I call myself 0:27:49.600 --> 0:27:54.080 and you before I call myself an larchists, then I 0:27:54.119 --> 0:27:59.720 should make once a thing. Oh we need to before 0:27:59.720 --> 0:28:21.440 it's all ah, welcome to it could happen here the 0:28:21.520 --> 0:28:25.600 podcast where this Today I sit down with my buddy 0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:30.080 Jake Hanrahan and we talk about Corsica Jake, are you 0:28:30.440 --> 0:28:33.520 how's the showy? How you how you feeling? Yeah, I'm 0:28:33.520 --> 0:28:34.760 all right. Thanks. I got a bit of a flu, 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:39.480 but otherwise everything's really good. One Yeah, um, we you 0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:43.440 just took a little reporting trip um down to the 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:46.120 island of corsica Um, which is not a place I 0:28:46.200 --> 0:28:47.640 know much about, and I'm going to guess not a 0:28:47.680 --> 0:28:49.400 place most of our listeners know much about. So why 0:28:49.440 --> 0:28:51.000 don't you Why don't you start with kind of like 0:28:51.160 --> 0:28:54.800 what what brought you down there? Yeah? No, it's a 0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:56.800 really good point. A lot of people don't even know 0:28:56.920 --> 0:29:00.280 it exists. I sent the documentary made Um with Pular 0:29:00.320 --> 0:29:03.080 Front to a friend of mine today and he said, brother, 0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:05.920 that's the first time I've ever heard of Coursico. Like, 0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:08.360 a lot of people don't know about It's so it's 0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:11.479 a very old island, um. You know, in more than 0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:14.680 two hundred years people have inhabited the place, but generally 0:29:14.800 --> 0:29:17.480 for the last kind of two hundred years there's been 0:29:17.520 --> 0:29:22.040 an on again, off again independence movement. They're people that 0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:25.400 don't want to be under the control of France or whoever. 0:29:25.480 --> 0:29:28.760 They want control of their own island. Because Corsican is 0:29:28.920 --> 0:29:33.320 quite a specific culture. Um, it's very different to French culture, 0:29:33.400 --> 0:29:36.000 it's different to Italian culture. They even have their own 0:29:36.080 --> 0:29:39.960 language called course. Unfortunately, it's kind of dying out, as 0:29:40.080 --> 0:29:42.960 you know, a lot of languages do in kind of 0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:47.000 contested areas if you like. Um. But yeah, so so 0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:50.440 they've always kind of wanted to be independent in some way. 0:29:50.520 --> 0:29:52.680 Not everybody, not the whole place. I'm sure you'll find 0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:55.160 some course because that will say their course of Confrench. 0:29:55.560 --> 0:29:58.479 But generally the majority of people if you go there 0:29:58.520 --> 0:30:01.240 and say, well are you there to are you with Corsican? 0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:05.120 We're not French with Corsican. So in the nineties seventies, 0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:09.240 that kind of coalesced was rebirthed, if you like, with 0:30:09.440 --> 0:30:12.719 the backdrop of you know, guns, bombs and independence movements 0:30:12.760 --> 0:30:15.600 of course Europe and a group called the f l 0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:21.440 n C formed the Nationalist Liberation Front for Corsica and 0:30:21.960 --> 0:30:25.200 they arrived with twenty one bombs on the island in 0:30:25.280 --> 0:30:27.400 one night. I mean not arrived, you know, they were 0:30:27.440 --> 0:30:32.000 already there, of course, but they bombed twenty one times 0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:36.240 in one night, mostly French infrastructure, and they were all 0:30:36.480 --> 0:30:39.640 very very well armed. There was literally hundreds of members 0:30:39.760 --> 0:30:42.320 and at one point I have to I don't want 0:30:42.360 --> 0:30:45.000 to say this because it's been a while since I 0:30:45.280 --> 0:30:47.760 looked at the research, but if I'm right, at one 0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:50.320 point in the in the late seventies or early eighties, 0:30:50.920 --> 0:30:55.200 the Effllency was actually the most active militant or terrorist 0:30:55.400 --> 0:30:58.960 group in the whole of Europe, even even more active 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:02.320 than the provision i RA now privileged IRA called a 0:31:02.360 --> 0:31:05.960 lot more people the FLNC. Their targets weren't really to 0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:08.120 kill people. They were to blow up holiday homes and 0:31:08.160 --> 0:31:11.120 blow up French infrastructure. They didn't have open gun battles, 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:15.880 and they did assassinate the the highest ranking French officer 0:31:16.320 --> 0:31:19.600 on Corsica on the island eventually. But yeah, so so 0:31:19.720 --> 0:31:24.360 there was this real backdrop of very militant um independence. 0:31:24.360 --> 0:31:27.520 When I say nationalists, it's not it's not what we 0:31:27.680 --> 0:31:30.800 might associate with like far right nationalists. You know, when 0:31:30.840 --> 0:31:34.400 an independent movement doesn't have its own country, you know, 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:37.000 the ultra nationalism in their sense comes out in a 0:31:37.120 --> 0:31:39.880 very different way. It's not we want to ban everybody 0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:42.640 else from here. It's simply we want our country, you 0:31:42.720 --> 0:31:44.920 know what I mean. So when I say ultra nationalists, 0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:48.120 that's not to be confused with fascist ultra nationalist. It's 0:31:48.200 --> 0:31:51.440 very different. Not to say that couskins all believe in 0:31:51.640 --> 0:31:54.720 in leftist causes and that that wouldn't be true. A 0:31:54.800 --> 0:31:57.360 lot of them do. There's a big socialist element to 0:31:57.680 --> 0:31:59.840 to the cause, and there's also quite a right we 0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:02.400 element to the cause. But ultimately they all kind of 0:32:02.480 --> 0:32:05.880 want the same thing, autonomy or independence of Corsica. So yeah, 0:32:05.960 --> 0:32:08.520 So that that's the kind of history very briefly of 0:32:08.800 --> 0:32:13.480 militant independence movements in Corsica. FLNC put down their guns 0:32:14.120 --> 0:32:19.160 and recently one of the fln C was suspected FLNC 0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:23.040 militants who shot this this high ranking French official that 0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:26.280 I told you about. Um this this guy is called 0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:30.440 Evan Colina. He was arrested m after the shooting in 0:32:30.480 --> 0:32:32.680 the nineties and sent to a French prison for life. 0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:35.880 And on March the sixth, I believe it was, he 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:39.120 was no very much. Second, he was attacked in a 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:42.160 French prison by a Jahadic inmate and beaten into a 0:32:42.240 --> 0:32:45.720 coma yesterday or two days ago. Now he died of 0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:48.640 his injuries. Ever since he was beaten into this comma, 0:32:48.760 --> 0:32:51.280 the youth would just kind of lit the place on fire, 0:32:51.360 --> 0:32:54.800 you know. They were really clashing very violently. And for 0:32:55.120 --> 0:32:56.760 for the last kind of seven years, since there was 0:32:56.840 --> 0:32:59.160 as a was a relative calm on the island in 0:32:59.320 --> 0:33:03.800 terms of collectivism and militancy. The politicians, the more moderate 0:33:03.840 --> 0:33:06.080 parties have tried to do this politically and for the 0:33:06.160 --> 0:33:08.640 first time in a while, the youth have gone, no, 0:33:08.880 --> 0:33:11.239 fuck it, We're not playing that anymore. We're we're going 0:33:11.280 --> 0:33:12.880 to knock the place about. We're going to smash the 0:33:12.920 --> 0:33:16.360 shop up. And basically it's kind of worked, which we 0:33:16.400 --> 0:33:18.280 can go into. But yeah, so sorry to go on 0:33:18.320 --> 0:33:20.200 a lot, but there's quite a lot to it because obviously, 0:33:20.240 --> 0:33:22.320 like you said, a lot of people don't know. But 0:33:22.440 --> 0:33:24.360 one thing I always say is courtA is just one 0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:28.400 of the most beautiful places anybody will go to. Like objectively, 0:33:28.440 --> 0:33:32.720 it's idyllic. It's not really had this horrible holiday home 0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:37.440 vibe there because genuinely, when when some contractors tried to 0:33:37.560 --> 0:33:39.640 kind of gentrify a course to come and turn it 0:33:39.720 --> 0:33:42.160 into the next ib through. I believe one of the 0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:45.640 quotes was from one of the people doing this. The 0:33:45.720 --> 0:33:47.600 f l n C kind of waited for them to 0:33:47.680 --> 0:33:50.160 build their homes and then blew them all up and 0:33:50.280 --> 0:33:53.600 blew up all their hotels. So it was like they're like, 0:33:53.640 --> 0:33:55.560 you're not going to do that here. A lot of 0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:58.960 these companies were infringing on the environment, which is beautiful there. 0:33:59.000 --> 0:34:01.360 And yeah, so there's a lot more to it, but generally, 0:34:01.560 --> 0:34:07.360 you know, this all kind of revolves around militant independence. Yeah, 0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:10.239 that's interesting. I mean, I I I think it's fascinating 0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:13.440 the idea of targeting, like the degree to which a 0:34:13.520 --> 0:34:15.400 lot of this seems to be focused on stopping this 0:34:15.520 --> 0:34:19.440 place from turning into another vacation destination or like rich 0:34:19.520 --> 0:34:24.440 people's second homes push out the population that's born there. Um. 0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:27.960 I think there's a lot of places that, like, uh, 0:34:28.680 --> 0:34:31.480 organizer complain about that sort of thing. Um, But I'm 0:34:31.520 --> 0:34:33.520 not aware of anyone who's gone to these kind of 0:34:33.640 --> 0:34:38.520 lengths to stop themselves from turning into another a visa. Yeah. Yeah, 0:34:38.640 --> 0:34:42.480 And honestly, if you go to Corsica and see how 0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:44.200 beautiful it is, not just I mean, it's one of 0:34:44.239 --> 0:34:45.800 the few places in Europe where you can see the 0:34:45.840 --> 0:34:48.400 mountains from the beach. You know, it's the incredible island. 0:34:48.719 --> 0:34:50.479 I've been obsessed with this place since I was about 0:34:50.520 --> 0:34:53.040 twenty four years old, firstly from the nature and the 0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:55.719 beauty there, but secondly I was very interested in the 0:34:55.760 --> 0:34:59.640 militant group there, um because the culture there was so different. 0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:02.160 But yeah, if you look at the place, you go 0:35:02.280 --> 0:35:04.839 there and you realize, like, right, this place is very 0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:07.879 much worth preserving. I don't want to act like there 0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:10.800 hasn't been businesses doing their thing there. There definitely is, 0:35:10.920 --> 0:35:14.480 but certainly it feels preserved. There's no high rises. All 0:35:14.560 --> 0:35:17.320 of the old buildings are still there and they're still intact. 0:35:18.280 --> 0:35:21.000 And you know when when these big businesses came in 0:35:21.120 --> 0:35:23.160 and a lot of these businessmen were almost showing off 0:35:23.239 --> 0:35:25.960 like yeah, we're gonna turn course of Carns waib Etha, 0:35:26.560 --> 0:35:30.080 which as a brit Um I would apologize to anyone 0:35:30.120 --> 0:35:35.520 living inever, you know, like having sex in the street 0:35:35.560 --> 0:35:39.080 and throwing up at bars and everything. Here you go there, Um, 0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:42.520 it's kind of been turned into one big not the 0:35:42.680 --> 0:35:46.799 great club, yeah yeah, not the great club definitely. Yeah. 0:35:47.040 --> 0:35:49.000 So so you know, it's it's one of these ones 0:35:49.040 --> 0:35:51.000 where it's like I could kind of understand. I'm not 0:35:51.040 --> 0:35:53.800 saying anyone should bomb anywhere, certainly not, but I do 0:35:53.960 --> 0:35:56.680 understand the sentiment there. And one of the one of 0:35:56.719 --> 0:35:59.959 my course and friends said, um, some people were calling 0:36:00.040 --> 0:36:02.840 it like the cold bed policy. So you come to 0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:04.600 our island, you buy a holiday home, and if you 0:36:04.719 --> 0:36:07.160 leave that bed cold as in you're not even living here, 0:36:07.640 --> 0:36:10.680 it's going to get blown up, you know if you like. So. 0:36:11.360 --> 0:36:15.480 Very militant, very violent, but effective. I mean, it doesn't 0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:17.120 mean that you have to agree with it, but no 0:36:17.200 --> 0:36:20.160 one can deny that it hasn't been effective. But at 0:36:20.200 --> 0:36:22.160 the same time, there's a very big mafia presence on 0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:24.200 the island as well, so that you know, it's not 0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:27.640 to say that everything is all for the people. I'm 0:36:27.640 --> 0:36:30.359 going to guess that the mafia is more or less 0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:33.480 on the side of, you know, turn this place into 0:36:33.480 --> 0:36:35.960 a vacation destination because that's where the money is. That 0:36:36.080 --> 0:36:39.640 that would be my essentially. Really that's interesting. No, so 0:36:39.880 --> 0:36:42.840 the unfortunately the independence movement, not all of them, but 0:36:42.880 --> 0:36:44.919 there is an element to it that is very hand 0:36:45.000 --> 0:36:48.680 in hand with the mafia. Most definitely. Perhaps some people 0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:54.759 that were independent militants are now mafia if you like. Um, 0:36:55.760 --> 0:36:58.040 and people have been killed on the island quite a lot. 0:36:58.080 --> 0:37:00.480 There's quite a lot of you know, unsold of murders 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:04.440 that it's quite sad um. But no, they they were 0:37:04.480 --> 0:37:08.239 more for keeping their own interests. You know, Um, we 0:37:08.360 --> 0:37:10.400 have this island, we can run the docks, we can 0:37:10.480 --> 0:37:13.640 run this, we can run that. And whilst what you 0:37:13.719 --> 0:37:15.600 said like makes sense, right, you would think, oh, no, 0:37:15.680 --> 0:37:17.480 they'd be for this money. I think what they want. 0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:19.680 They're still nationalists. At the end of the day. They 0:37:19.760 --> 0:37:22.000 won't control, but they won't control in their own way. 0:37:22.400 --> 0:37:25.040 And the big business comes in and start saying, oh, yeah, 0:37:25.040 --> 0:37:26.480 we're doing this and that and the other, and we're 0:37:26.480 --> 0:37:29.040 bringing all these people in by the docks. I guess 0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:32.000 they lose control of that essentially. So they were very 0:37:32.080 --> 0:37:34.200 much on the side of yeah, do what you like 0:37:34.360 --> 0:37:38.560 sort of thing, and I think fascinating, so very unique, 0:37:38.600 --> 0:37:41.640 very specific place. You mentioned that this action you shut 0:37:41.719 --> 0:37:47.319 up for people bombed twenty one targets in one night. 0:37:47.640 --> 0:37:49.800 In one night. Yeah, when you say bomb, are we 0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:53.399 talking like your standard malatabs or were they are? Were 0:37:53.440 --> 0:37:57.040 they kind of like more elaborate devices. Shall we say, 0:37:57.040 --> 0:38:00.040 how would you describe what they were using? Yeah, a 0:38:00.120 --> 0:38:01.840 good question. I mean when you think of twenty one 0:38:01.920 --> 0:38:04.359 in one night, you think, right like monotor small night, 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:08.120 something simple. Yeah, yeah, no, No, there weren't even pipe wombs. 0:38:08.160 --> 0:38:12.920 You're talking fertilizer bombs. Yeah, like blowing the whole buildings, 0:38:13.000 --> 0:38:15.040 you know, not all of them, you know, there were 0:38:15.120 --> 0:38:18.520 some smaller ones, but some very significant ones um and 0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:21.799 very very big. The way of Corsica is the way 0:38:21.840 --> 0:38:24.480 it's laid out. Like I said, it's a small place. 0:38:24.520 --> 0:38:27.640 I think currently like three people lived there roughly, and 0:38:27.960 --> 0:38:31.400 there were mountains, there were beaches, there were very rural communities, 0:38:31.719 --> 0:38:34.720 eight's and islands. It's quite far away from France, actually, 0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:37.600 it's very close to Italy um and Sardinia is just 0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:40.719 to it south. And it's just for them. If you 0:38:40.800 --> 0:38:42.680 were you couldn't ask for a better location, if you 0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:44.279 wanted to be a kind of guerrilla group, you know, 0:38:44.360 --> 0:38:46.880 you really couldn't. It's kind of built for them. So 0:38:47.080 --> 0:38:49.240 they just got away with it, you know, farmers whatever, 0:38:49.600 --> 0:38:52.200 they went into the mountains, build bombs dropped them off. 0:38:52.680 --> 0:38:54.880 And not to say that everybody was for them, but 0:38:55.160 --> 0:38:58.520 there is some It wasn't just we want independence, there 0:38:58.600 --> 0:39:01.840 was there was subjugation by the French. You know. Firstly, 0:39:01.840 --> 0:39:03.560 they're like, we don't want to be a French colony 0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:05.640 or whatever you would call it anymore, which I think 0:39:05.680 --> 0:39:09.000 anybody that wants their determination to not be held by 0:39:09.040 --> 0:39:13.120 our former colonial power, it's fine, or current colonial power 0:39:13.160 --> 0:39:15.359 if you like, I think, yeah, fair play to them. 0:39:15.920 --> 0:39:19.759 But secondly, they're one of the most poorer regions, despite 0:39:19.800 --> 0:39:22.360 having all this holiday stuff, despite having a lot of produce, 0:39:22.440 --> 0:39:24.719 despite having a lot of reasons to be there. So 0:39:24.880 --> 0:39:27.640 there's definitely something. I won't claim to know too much 0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:29.960 about the law situation, and I'm sure a lot of 0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:33.520 French people get angry whatever, but it is genuinely doing 0:39:33.840 --> 0:39:37.960 very badly in many different aspects. Is that mismanagement by them? 0:39:38.160 --> 0:39:39.680 Is it because of the French? I couldn't tell you. 0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:41.839 I don't know enough about it, but I certainly find 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:44.759 it very weird that all of these beautiful things that 0:39:44.840 --> 0:39:47.440 happened on the island and they're they're constantly in you know, 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:51.839 the lower bracket of situations economically, culturally, they're getting kind 0:39:51.840 --> 0:39:54.400 of sidelined a bit so I do. I do understand, 0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:57.480 and certainly when the clashes or even protests happen in 0:39:57.520 --> 0:40:01.280 the seventies, the police, you know, French police. I'm sorry, 0:40:01.360 --> 0:40:04.840 but there's some of the worst fucking police ever, you know. 0:40:04.960 --> 0:40:07.600 And I've been in front of Turkish police, like French 0:40:07.680 --> 0:40:11.239 police are fucking up there. They're horrible, and they beat 0:40:11.280 --> 0:40:13.920 the ship out of a lot of people in Cortica 0:40:14.120 --> 0:40:16.920 just for peacefully protesting, you know. So it didn't come 0:40:16.960 --> 0:40:18.600 from nowhere, you know what I mean? There is there 0:40:18.719 --> 0:40:21.799 is more to it than just nationalism and independence. There's 0:40:21.800 --> 0:40:23.800 a lot more to it. They wanna, they want to 0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:25.360 they want to deal with their own affairs, a lot 0:40:25.400 --> 0:40:27.719 of them, you know, most people probably now want to 0:40:27.760 --> 0:40:30.439 do it democratically. But like I said, the youth were said, 0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:32.800 no funk, that we're not getting anywhere, and they've Actually 0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:35.480 it's actually worked because the day after the riots that 0:40:35.560 --> 0:40:41.160 we filmed on March thirteen, the Interior Minister of France 0:40:41.280 --> 0:40:43.920 basically said, right, we're willing to discuss this with you. 0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:46.880 We will go as far as autonomy. That's literally a 0:40:46.960 --> 0:40:49.799 quote he said, which is quite significant. Yeah, after seven 0:40:49.880 --> 0:40:53.160 years of basically stalemate through the politicians. So the youth 0:40:53.200 --> 0:40:56.440 in a way, one of the very few examples of this, 0:40:57.320 --> 0:41:00.760 specifically in Europe, the youth, what they're doing kind of worked, 0:41:01.200 --> 0:41:03.759 you know what I mean, Like directly action got got 0:41:03.880 --> 0:41:09.520 some goods, started the process of getting the goods hopefully. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, 0:41:09.520 --> 0:41:12.040 it has. And the thing about the course scan youth 0:41:12.200 --> 0:41:17.040 is they're very intelligent, they're very they're very authentic in 0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:20.040 their political activism in the sense of it's just they're 0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:21.880 born into it. It's in them, you know, from the 0:41:21.960 --> 0:41:24.960 age of like twelve thirteen, they're understanding it. They're getting 0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:27.960 told about the legends of blah blah, you know, um, 0:41:28.400 --> 0:41:31.359 there's there's militant group and whatever whatever. So there's very 0:41:31.440 --> 0:41:33.640 much in them in that sense, kind of in a 0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:35.440 you know, like the Kurds are kind of you know, 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:37.520 not on the same level, but that kind of vibe. 0:41:37.880 --> 0:41:40.120 So when they go to students, when they go to 0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:43.920 UNI and they become students, they're not really forming their 0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:46.759 political opinions. They already have them, they already got them, 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:50.360 and then they they sort of higher, they sort of 0:41:50.680 --> 0:41:53.759 germinate together. So that's from what I understood anyway, that's 0:41:53.840 --> 0:41:56.880 from what I gathered and you know, your average trendy 0:41:57.080 --> 0:42:00.680 young man and woman on the street there is very political. 0:42:00.880 --> 0:42:02.879 It's kind of like Greece in that sense, like it's 0:42:02.960 --> 0:42:06.719 cool to be political, but in the sense of not 0:42:06.920 --> 0:42:10.120 the kind not like um, you know, not not something 0:42:10.160 --> 0:42:12.160 you brought into as a teenager, something that was already 0:42:12.200 --> 0:42:14.320 there and then which which there is nothing wrong with it. 0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:17.040 You know, most people fall in their political opinions in 0:42:17.239 --> 0:42:19.279 unis or whatever, but for them, it's already in there, 0:42:19.360 --> 0:42:22.160 you see what I'm saying. So they already have they're 0:42:22.200 --> 0:42:25.040 already united in that sense, you know. So when they 0:42:25.080 --> 0:42:27.160 get to the UNI, they get there it's like, okay, 0:42:27.200 --> 0:42:30.080 well we all want independence or autonomy, but then the 0:42:30.160 --> 0:42:32.320 other things are lesser, so you know, for that in 0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:34.719 that really, in that sense, I think that was quite interesting. 0:42:35.280 --> 0:42:39.640 And we saw eight thousand, nine thousand people marching maybe 0:42:40.080 --> 0:42:43.160 and then when the clashes started, you know, it is well, 0:42:43.200 --> 0:42:45.560 but like normally it's like what a hundred three people 0:42:45.640 --> 0:42:51.520 stay talking, like two thousand people help clashing, and men 0:42:51.719 --> 0:42:54.919 and women like young girls, young men, like many many, 0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:57.640 you know, So it was really I was like, wow, okay, 0:42:58.000 --> 0:43:00.279 and one one thing that I've never I have seen 0:43:00.320 --> 0:43:03.200 for a very long time. I've very rarely seen it. Normally, 0:43:03.480 --> 0:43:07.279 when the clash happens, everybody, you know, your grandma's, you're 0:43:07.360 --> 0:43:10.080 working man, you know, the people that support what's going 0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:12.719 on but are not able to clash or don't want 0:43:12.760 --> 0:43:16.279 to clash, they normally step back. In the Coursicum protests, 0:43:16.440 --> 0:43:19.520 everybody just stayed like we were getting tear gas next 0:43:19.560 --> 0:43:22.880 to like fifty lads with balaclabas on, next to like 0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:26.960 grandma or auntie, you know, and we're like helping people 0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:28.879 into the side street to get away from tear gas. 0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:31.480 It's very weird. They just didn't leave. They just were 0:43:31.480 --> 0:43:35.840 there the whole time. It's weird when you're talking about 0:43:35.880 --> 0:43:38.600 like tactically, what is this, How are these kind of 0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:41.360 bombings being pulled off? As so you've got like this 0:43:41.520 --> 0:43:43.680 huge crowd and they're just kind of like marching from 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:47.719 target to target. Um. So the youth are not really 0:43:47.960 --> 0:43:50.880 I mean, they have some small kind of I D 0:43:51.080 --> 0:43:53.839 s you know what I'm saying, that youth student youth protesters, 0:43:54.120 --> 0:43:58.319 but generally it's Molotov's bricks, burning barricades. But they very 0:43:58.400 --> 0:44:03.440 clearly know the island inside out. They know their streets, 0:44:03.520 --> 0:44:06.719 you know, obviously because they lived there. And most of 0:44:06.800 --> 0:44:09.640 the police, from what I understand, are actually French called 0:44:09.680 --> 0:44:12.600 in from the island, from the mainland, sorry to the island. 0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:15.759 A lot of the CRS riot police, thousands of them 0:44:15.800 --> 0:44:18.800 were brought in. There was that they were actually completely outnumbered. 0:44:19.400 --> 0:44:21.239 They had to retreat at one point in in the 0:44:21.320 --> 0:44:25.560 evening to go back to the prefecture kind of cultural 0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:29.520 French administrative building where the main the main target of 0:44:29.600 --> 0:44:31.960 violence was. They had to retreat to get more ammunition 0:44:32.000 --> 0:44:35.200 because they just they just shot so much tiggas um. 0:44:35.280 --> 0:44:37.239 They just couldn't, you know, they couldn't do anything. There 0:44:37.280 --> 0:44:40.239 were some teams, like the youth. Some of them had 0:44:40.800 --> 0:44:43.680 green arm bands or green leg bands, so they were 0:44:43.760 --> 0:44:46.120 very clearly like a different unit, and they were very 0:44:46.200 --> 0:44:49.160 well organized. They didn't have walkie talkies, mind you normally 0:44:49.200 --> 0:44:52.680 that that shows a closer sign of organization. But some 0:44:52.800 --> 0:44:54.160 of them were like that. Some of them were just 0:44:54.320 --> 0:44:56.920 turned up to fight, and some of them were splitting 0:44:56.960 --> 0:44:59.120 off into different groups. You would see one come in, 0:45:00.000 --> 0:45:02.200 they'd fight, fight, fight, and then they'd leave and as 0:45:02.239 --> 0:45:04.359 they're leaving, another load would just come in the line. 0:45:04.640 --> 0:45:06.719 It was. It was really quite interesting. You know, they'd 0:45:06.760 --> 0:45:09.640 really thought about it. Um, it wasn't just a free 0:45:09.680 --> 0:45:12.440 for all, which it might look like. But you know, 0:45:12.640 --> 0:45:15.400 after a while of covering riots, there's certain things you 0:45:15.520 --> 0:45:19.400 notice where you're like, Okay, they're planning this, they're planning that, 0:45:19.560 --> 0:45:21.560 you know what I'm saying. So it's quite interesting in 0:45:21.640 --> 0:45:24.680 that sense. Um, but yeah, man, it's yeah, thousands of 0:45:24.840 --> 0:45:28.160 thousands of youth fighting. Um, it did get messy. I 0:45:28.239 --> 0:45:33.000 think forty four police were injured, thirteen protesters and one pedestrian. 0:45:33.120 --> 0:45:35.120 That was the official figures. I saw at least three 0:45:35.160 --> 0:45:38.920 pedestrians injured, and I think probably more protesters and definitely 0:45:38.960 --> 0:45:41.279 more cops, I would say. Yeah. I mean, obviously it 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:43.840 also depends on like what you're raiding as an injury 0:45:43.960 --> 0:45:46.600 for that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah, And a lot 0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:49.919 of folks probably are avoiding the hospitals and being dealt 0:45:49.960 --> 0:45:54.600 with at homes and whatnot because they were committing some crimes. Yeah, 0:45:54.800 --> 0:45:57.319 just like you know, at home with superglue in seat 0:45:57.320 --> 0:46:00.959 of stitches or whatever. Yeah. Do you have a sense 0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:03.520 of like how long? But the kind of the back 0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:07.399 end of this was the preparation process was for this. Yeah, 0:46:07.520 --> 0:46:10.640 so the classes have been ongoing before we got there 0:46:10.760 --> 0:46:14.080 for about a week. So even Colinar was beaten into 0:46:14.160 --> 0:46:18.160 this coma. He was he was attacked in prison. There's 0:46:18.160 --> 0:46:20.920 some rumors that he said some kind of Islamophobic thing 0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:23.239 to the inmate, and don't know how true that is, 0:46:23.320 --> 0:46:25.759 but all we know is the guy was actually, you know, 0:46:26.600 --> 0:46:29.279 convicted jahadist. It's not kind of hear say that the 0:46:29.320 --> 0:46:32.600 guy the inmate was a convicted jahadist because obviously even 0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:35.680 Colinar is in the type of prison where what the 0:46:35.760 --> 0:46:37.839 state says is terrorists are there, you know what I mean, 0:46:37.880 --> 0:46:40.560 anybody terrorists is there, So it makes sense he's amongst 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:42.680 these people. And I think he was attacked in the 0:46:42.800 --> 0:46:46.040 gym when he was on his own and he was strangled, 0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:49.160 and this this is where yeah, yeah, this is where 0:46:49.160 --> 0:46:53.480 there's a weird point of contention. He because of the 0:46:53.600 --> 0:46:58.640 special status he had as such a violent militant or whatever, 0:46:59.080 --> 0:47:00.840 he shouldn't have really been in on his own like that. 0:47:01.520 --> 0:47:05.680 And some people were speculating did something happen, But generally 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:09.240 most people we spoke to were like it was probably 0:47:09.280 --> 0:47:12.200 just negligence, you know, They weren't very conspiratory. There was 0:47:12.239 --> 0:47:14.840 someone like, oh the French, the French plan is I 0:47:14.960 --> 0:47:17.040 doubt it. It doesn't make much sense to do this 0:47:17.320 --> 0:47:19.160 right now, Like you know, they would knew what would 0:47:19.160 --> 0:47:22.080 happen to be on calling to the people. Sorry if 0:47:22.120 --> 0:47:23.799 he've on Colling. I was hurt because he's a big 0:47:24.320 --> 0:47:28.480 you know, a big name there. There's also some you know, 0:47:28.680 --> 0:47:33.720 maybe interesting arguments around the case, the way he was arrested. 0:47:33.960 --> 0:47:35.800 Apparently the gun doesn't match up. I don't know. I 0:47:35.800 --> 0:47:37.759 didn't really get into that, but either way, he's like 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:39.600 a you know, people they love him, you know what 0:47:39.680 --> 0:47:42.040 I'm saying. He's like a matter for them, even though 0:47:42.160 --> 0:47:43.640 you know, he shot this guy in the back in 0:47:44.000 --> 0:47:46.080 in cold blood essentially, but for them that was a 0:47:46.120 --> 0:47:50.640 political assassination whatever. So so for about a week, the 0:47:51.320 --> 0:47:54.280 youth were fighting, and I saw a video and anything 0:47:54.320 --> 0:47:56.239 that happens in course, I'm like, right, I'm looking at it, 0:47:56.920 --> 0:47:58.719 and I was like, okay, this this is a little 0:47:58.719 --> 0:48:01.960 bit different. Okay, molotovs are out again. Hasn't haven't seen 0:48:02.000 --> 0:48:03.800 that for a while. And then the next day and 0:48:03.840 --> 0:48:05.719 then the next day, and then it spread one night 0:48:06.280 --> 0:48:09.800 to like five different cities or like sorry, three different cities, 0:48:09.880 --> 0:48:12.840 like big, big places, and then they burned like a 0:48:13.000 --> 0:48:15.840 very specific monument, so that was like, oh it's on. 0:48:16.080 --> 0:48:21.040 So for at least a week they were they were 0:48:21.080 --> 0:48:23.600 planning something, you know, and there was enough kind of 0:48:24.080 --> 0:48:28.320 um momentum there, I think for them to organize. Certainly, 0:48:28.360 --> 0:48:30.879 we know that there was people from a jat CEO 0:48:30.920 --> 0:48:33.960 of the capital city in Bastia where we filmed it, 0:48:34.040 --> 0:48:36.600 like a lot of people drove in, they came you know, 0:48:37.000 --> 0:48:40.120 specifically for this clash, so that was quite interesting. I 0:48:40.200 --> 0:48:42.520 think the youth movement have a very strong network there, 0:48:42.800 --> 0:48:45.560 and there's also quite a big football ultra scene there. 0:48:45.960 --> 0:48:49.480 So the day before the clashes, Bastia and the JATSO 0:48:49.640 --> 0:48:53.640 had a derby. So obviously I imagine a lot of 0:48:53.680 --> 0:48:55.440 the ultras, or at least I know a lot of 0:48:55.480 --> 0:48:59.480 the ultras were also part of the independence groupings and 0:48:59.560 --> 0:49:01.640 part of the clashes, so I imagine that a lot 0:49:01.680 --> 0:49:04.640 of the football ultras kind of organized you know, you know, 0:49:04.840 --> 0:49:07.720 the match the day before or at least a week before, 0:49:07.880 --> 0:49:11.080 so I think there was quite a lot of organization there. 0:49:11.120 --> 0:49:13.520 You know, what do you feel like is next? Is 0:49:13.600 --> 0:49:15.480 this the case? Do you get the sense that because 0:49:15.600 --> 0:49:19.520 the government has announced their willingness to sit down and talk, 0:49:19.680 --> 0:49:22.839 that maybe folks are going to wait to follow up 0:49:22.920 --> 0:49:24.520 this or do you get the sense that they're going 0:49:24.560 --> 0:49:28.960 to kind of keep the pressure on. Well, the thing is, 0:49:29.680 --> 0:49:34.640 there was one option before Evan Colonard died, and now 0:49:34.719 --> 0:49:36.520 there's a new option that he's died. You see what 0:49:36.560 --> 0:49:41.000 I'm saying. Before, I think what you're saying would have 0:49:41.200 --> 0:49:43.680 would have happened, like I mean, I don't know, but 0:49:43.760 --> 0:49:45.640 I think that youth would have they would have held 0:49:45.719 --> 0:49:48.880 off the fact that the Interior Minister of France, who 0:49:48.920 --> 0:49:53.000 answers directly to mcron within one day or less than 0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:56.120 one day, said we're willing to go as far as 0:49:56.200 --> 0:50:00.440 autonomy in these discussions. Stop being violent. I think the 0:50:00.520 --> 0:50:03.360 youth was smart enough to realize, all right, let's stop, 0:50:03.480 --> 0:50:05.480 let's see what he's got to say. I'm sure if 0:50:05.520 --> 0:50:07.879 things faltered, if things didn't move quick enough, they would 0:50:07.880 --> 0:50:11.560 have very quickly stepped up the stepped up the violence again. However, 0:50:11.680 --> 0:50:15.960 now that even Colin has died, I don't think that 0:50:16.360 --> 0:50:19.200 they're just gonna wait now. From what I understand from 0:50:19.280 --> 0:50:22.480 speaking to contacts and friends in Corsica. There's a period 0:50:22.520 --> 0:50:25.919 of mourning right now. You know his funeral. He died 0:50:25.960 --> 0:50:28.840 in a prison in Marseille. He wasn't even transferred to 0:50:29.080 --> 0:50:31.520 to Corsica to die, So for a lot of them, 0:50:31.600 --> 0:50:36.240 that's incredibly offensive. That's the kind of spark that started 0:50:36.280 --> 0:50:39.319 these clashes. It's all about independence and autonomy on one level, 0:50:39.440 --> 0:50:41.600 but the thing that drove this and sparked it was 0:50:41.640 --> 0:50:44.279 even Colonize attack, and and the fact that there's a 0:50:44.280 --> 0:50:47.720 lot of course cam prison prisoners, which are political prisoners, 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:50.680 are in prison in Frances at the Corsica anyway. So 0:50:51.719 --> 0:50:54.480 now that he has died, I really think that there 0:50:54.480 --> 0:50:57.080 will be a moment of calm due to the funeral 0:50:57.239 --> 0:51:00.600 and respect for even Colin arm whatever. Then I think 0:51:00.640 --> 0:51:04.160 maybe a week after this week, I think it's almost 0:51:04.280 --> 0:51:07.240 inevitable that we will see some form of violence again. 0:51:07.800 --> 0:51:10.520 I've spoken to some people that are maybe going a 0:51:10.600 --> 0:51:12.800 bit far, maybe being a bit dramatic. I don't know, 0:51:13.000 --> 0:51:14.839 but they speculate that there will be a little bit 0:51:14.920 --> 0:51:17.919 more than just clashes. One one person I know said, 0:51:17.920 --> 0:51:20.080 I think they're going to blow something up again. Do 0:51:20.239 --> 0:51:23.080 I think that, probably not, But certainly when we were 0:51:23.120 --> 0:51:27.560 in the streets they were using. There's there's photos of 0:51:27.640 --> 0:51:30.160 it as well. They were using very crude but very small, 0:51:30.239 --> 0:51:34.239 improvised explosive devices. Now, when a group even starts to 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:36.800 do that, you know, okay, it's a very small device. 0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:39.239 It was in a kind of like a basically a 0:51:39.320 --> 0:51:41.600 tennis ball type thing with it with whatever in it. 0:51:42.040 --> 0:51:45.120 But it was fucking loud. It wouldn't really do much 0:51:45.200 --> 0:51:47.040 unless it probably blow up right next to your foot. 0:51:47.520 --> 0:51:50.279 But when they're even considering that, in my experience, that 0:51:50.560 --> 0:51:52.719 tells you that people are there's an element that are 0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:56.279 ready to go further up the ladder to the next level. 0:51:57.360 --> 0:51:59.520 Does that mean they're going to blow somewhere up. I 0:51:59.600 --> 0:52:01.919 don't know. I don't see it personally. You know, these 0:52:02.040 --> 0:52:04.719 these young people are very clever. I think that would 0:52:04.719 --> 0:52:08.279 be in an insane decision because it would France would 0:52:08.280 --> 0:52:10.480 have no option but to basically flood the island with 0:52:10.560 --> 0:52:13.520 a lot more police and maybe even military type police. 0:52:13.600 --> 0:52:16.960 I don't know, maybe not, but but yeah, anyway, we'll 0:52:16.960 --> 0:52:19.520 see what happens. But again, my point is not not 0:52:19.680 --> 0:52:21.279 that I think this is gonna happen, But there's that 0:52:21.400 --> 0:52:23.880 talk which we haven't seen that kind of talk in 0:52:23.960 --> 0:52:26.000 Corsica for quite a while, you know what I mean, 0:52:26.040 --> 0:52:29.440 And there's actually people now genuinely worried like Okay, where's 0:52:29.480 --> 0:52:32.080 this going to go? Which can never be a good thing. 0:52:32.520 --> 0:52:35.480 I guess the French state really has to be careful here, 0:52:36.080 --> 0:52:40.239 and I think the fact they've now said we're gonna 0:52:40.480 --> 0:52:43.520 go as far as autonomy, maybe they at the very 0:52:43.600 --> 0:52:46.880 least have to be shown to be doing that very quickly. 0:52:47.120 --> 0:52:50.359 I think, you know. Otherwise, for a lot of people 0:52:50.400 --> 0:52:54.839 in Corsica, it's like even Colin Colinar died in Vain, 0:52:54.960 --> 0:52:57.240 I guess, and it's not just the youth, it's everybody, 0:52:57.280 --> 0:53:00.839 even people that perhaps really don't like that the youth 0:53:00.920 --> 0:53:04.759 were fighting, really don't support that level of violence. They 0:53:04.840 --> 0:53:07.560 still support Evan Coliner and a very sad he's dead, 0:53:07.680 --> 0:53:09.399 you see what I'm saying, and the way he died, 0:53:09.480 --> 0:53:13.520 And even even past DNFC, the football team and one 0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:15.839 of the main football teams in Courtsco, they said, are 0:53:16.120 --> 0:53:18.160 you know, we're very sad that he's dead. You know, 0:53:18.520 --> 0:53:20.560 hero has died that kind of thing, so he's a 0:53:20.719 --> 0:53:23.960 very He's seen as a Martineau definitely, Yeah, I mean 0:53:24.000 --> 0:53:30.600 that's a predictable outcome from killing the guys in prison. Um, right, right, right, right, 0:53:30.719 --> 0:53:32.879 So we're kind of in this like waiting to see 0:53:33.000 --> 0:53:35.320 what the next step is. Then I guess, like the 0:53:36.160 --> 0:53:39.560 it's it's kind of this weird sort of like political 0:53:39.680 --> 0:53:44.040 liminal space. I guess where the next steps are. There's 0:53:44.080 --> 0:53:49.840 a number of things that could happen. Um, yeah, definitely, 0:53:49.920 --> 0:53:55.200 it's this very everything's in transition. It's it's very it's 0:53:55.440 --> 0:54:00.279 it's either calm before the storm, or it's calm that 0:54:00.400 --> 0:54:05.520 turns into something positive. But I I just don't see, 0:54:05.640 --> 0:54:09.640 you know, after almost two weeks of extremely violent clashes, 0:54:10.480 --> 0:54:13.399 very well organized, after seeing them on the ground as well, 0:54:13.480 --> 0:54:16.920 these are brave lads, these and women as well. These 0:54:16.960 --> 0:54:20.560 are not your kind of average weekend warriors. They're very, 0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:24.120 very up for it. Um you know how people clash 0:54:24.200 --> 0:54:27.000 in Paris, like French people, they're very up. As soon 0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:30.920 as final they'll fight, you know. Um, it's like that 0:54:31.120 --> 0:54:33.799 times ten for from what I experienced, because it's got 0:54:33.920 --> 0:54:39.680 the the kind of incubated nationalist identity separate from France, 0:54:39.760 --> 0:54:42.960 but whilst also having kind of fiery French culture and 0:54:43.640 --> 0:54:48.680 fiery Italian culture influences and fiery Corsican culture. Um not 0:54:48.800 --> 0:54:50.840 to say that they're not very nice people. Everyone was 0:54:51.120 --> 0:54:54.839 absolutely lovely, very very friendly, but you can tell they're 0:54:54.880 --> 0:54:57.160 you know, there are fiery people. They're active, they're about it, 0:54:57.280 --> 0:54:59.840 they mean what they say. So I don't think that 0:55:00.440 --> 0:55:03.360 the youth will just go quietly from this essentially a 0:55:03.440 --> 0:55:07.160 political prisoner m A. Martin now and then for them 0:55:07.280 --> 0:55:10.560 to just go, Okay, we'll just relax now. I don't 0:55:10.600 --> 0:55:12.560 see it. You go. You're talking from like you know, 0:55:13.040 --> 0:55:16.520 probably in the full week of clashes, maybe four or 0:55:16.560 --> 0:55:21.799 five thousand people together throwing rocks, burning barricades, throwing small 0:55:21.840 --> 0:55:24.640 improvised devices at cops, to then just to go to 0:55:24.760 --> 0:55:28.480 nothing after even Colonarde dies, I would be very very surprised. 0:55:28.880 --> 0:55:30.759 I think the only way that that would happen would 0:55:30.760 --> 0:55:33.440 be for France to go, okay, here's your autonomy, and 0:55:33.520 --> 0:55:36.560 then that energy could be turned into a celebration. What 0:55:36.640 --> 0:55:38.640 I'm saying that should or shouldn't happen. I just think 0:55:38.760 --> 0:55:41.800 theoretically that's the only way that it could avoid violence, 0:55:41.880 --> 0:55:43.959 because the energy is there. Now, you see what I'm saying, 0:55:44.520 --> 0:55:46.919 not on like an essterry level, it's just the level 0:55:46.960 --> 0:55:49.040 of like they're revved up, they're ready, you know, in 0:55:49.080 --> 0:55:51.920 the attitude, the kind of it's in the air. It's 0:55:51.960 --> 0:55:54.120 in the air right now. So you published just a 0:55:54.160 --> 0:55:57.160 couple of days ago, your a little documentary like short 0:55:57.239 --> 0:56:01.719 documentary from Popular Front which footage a little dispatch which 0:56:01.760 --> 0:56:04.960 has footage from this um, which people should definitely check out, 0:56:05.080 --> 0:56:07.520 especially if they'd like to see some of the tactics 0:56:07.560 --> 0:56:11.160 that we've talked about UM on this this episode so far. 0:56:11.360 --> 0:56:13.480 Is there anywhere else you might recommend they go for 0:56:13.600 --> 0:56:17.880 further reading on this subject UM not not to be um, 0:56:17.960 --> 0:56:21.200 oh you're only Popular front um, but we we have. 0:56:21.360 --> 0:56:25.040 It's just something that I've just been specifically fascinating and 0:56:25.120 --> 0:56:28.239 obsessed with for a long time. So when the time came, 0:56:28.320 --> 0:56:31.480 I was very well prepared. Everyone has said like, oh, 0:56:31.640 --> 0:56:33.719 you know, this is this is crazy, like, you know, 0:56:34.600 --> 0:56:37.120 how did you understand all of this so quickly, because 0:56:37.120 --> 0:56:39.200 I've been reading about it and and the problem with 0:56:39.239 --> 0:56:41.279 a lot of the French reporting is, you know, it's 0:56:41.360 --> 0:56:45.240 it's naturally very fresh, skewed. It's a little bit sneary, 0:56:45.480 --> 0:56:48.360 like all the island people are kicking off again, whereas 0:56:48.360 --> 0:56:50.719 it's like, no, come on like this, it's an incredible, 0:56:51.080 --> 0:56:53.239 beautiful place. Of course they want to preserve it. Of 0:56:53.320 --> 0:56:55.880 course they want to control it in whatever way they 0:56:55.960 --> 0:56:58.839 want to. So again it's very difficult, but I will 0:56:58.880 --> 0:57:02.959 say that there are some really good reporters um there. 0:57:03.360 --> 0:57:08.000 There's a a friend of mine from Corsica, Lionel Doomus. 0:57:08.400 --> 0:57:11.920 He runs like a thing called um Corsican passport or 0:57:11.960 --> 0:57:15.120 were used to, which was kind of kind of humorous 0:57:15.239 --> 0:57:17.120 but at the same time in our news about kind 0:57:17.120 --> 0:57:22.160 of course and related um patriotic stuff. And then who 0:57:22.240 --> 0:57:26.760 we worked with, Jean Colinar. He's not related to m Yvonne. 0:57:27.240 --> 0:57:29.640 Like it's it's quite a you know, common COmON last name, 0:57:29.760 --> 0:57:32.480 Yeah exactly, yeah, so us it sounds quite you know, right, 0:57:32.480 --> 0:57:35.080 you must be related, but over there it's like not Smith, 0:57:35.200 --> 0:57:39.120 but you know it's quite common. Um, so yeah, Jean Colinar, 0:57:39.240 --> 0:57:44.800 he's great. And there's also the local papers in Corsica course, Mattin. 0:57:45.320 --> 0:57:47.960 They're really good. You might have to translate stuff, but 0:57:48.000 --> 0:57:49.480 they're very on the ball, you know what I mean 0:57:49.520 --> 0:57:52.080 that they're focused on everything. So if people are interested 0:57:52.120 --> 0:57:54.040 in it, honestly, I would say like seek out local 0:57:54.120 --> 0:57:57.080 French reporters. From what I gathered as well, there's there's 0:57:57.120 --> 0:58:02.880 a quiet, but really thriving kind of youth media. I 0:58:02.880 --> 0:58:05.240 wouldn't say it's a it's a movement, but there's something 0:58:05.320 --> 0:58:07.120 growing there, you know. I spoke before I went out. 0:58:07.120 --> 0:58:10.120 I spoke to quite a few reporters, really nice people, 0:58:10.280 --> 0:58:14.800 really enthusiastic, really you know, love loving their island, but 0:58:14.880 --> 0:58:16.760 not full of hatred or anything like that. That that's 0:58:16.800 --> 0:58:19.000 something that I've seen a lot of French people say, oh, 0:58:19.680 --> 0:58:23.160 Corsicans are really full of hatred, their racist, They're blah blah. 0:58:23.200 --> 0:58:26.640 And it's like, I didn't experience that. And at the 0:58:26.720 --> 0:58:34.320 same time, it's like have you been to Paris, right, yeah, yeah, 0:58:34.720 --> 0:58:37.200 you know, like it's like the end of the day. 0:58:37.200 --> 0:58:38.760 I think the whole region probably has a has an 0:58:38.800 --> 0:58:41.560 issue with that, but certainly the youth are very open minded, 0:58:41.760 --> 0:58:44.920 very nice. Um And like I said, this isn't just 0:58:45.120 --> 0:58:47.880 me basing it off of one trip. I've been fascinated 0:58:47.920 --> 0:58:50.960 with this place for about six to eight years and 0:58:51.680 --> 0:58:54.520 I I have not experienced anything like that. Sure you'll 0:58:54.520 --> 0:58:57.800 hear the old comment like you know very yeah it's Europe, 0:58:58.200 --> 0:59:03.520 Yeah exactly, exactly Europe. Not to minimize it, but like 0:59:03.760 --> 0:59:09.640 it's just Corsica exactly whatever. Generally, you know, for a 0:59:09.720 --> 0:59:12.040 small island, it could be way worse. And so I 0:59:12.120 --> 0:59:13.920 had a lot of French people, like they're really nasty, 0:59:14.000 --> 0:59:16.120 they're really violent, and it's like they're not actually like 0:59:16.840 --> 0:59:20.400 they're very angry, but they don't hate. They don't hate 0:59:20.480 --> 0:59:23.560 the French in that sense of like, oh you're a 0:59:23.640 --> 0:59:26.240 French person, kill you. It's the same thing as we 0:59:26.360 --> 0:59:28.400 hate the state, you know. Like and at the same 0:59:28.440 --> 0:59:30.640 time they have a very quite a few people brought 0:59:30.720 --> 0:59:34.560 up Ireland and the Basque situation and Sardinia, and so 0:59:34.680 --> 0:59:38.800 they have this they have an internationalist mentality as well. Actually, 0:59:39.040 --> 0:59:40.880 and in fact, years ago there used to be a 0:59:41.000 --> 0:59:44.600 youth conference in Corsica hosted there. I don't think it 0:59:44.680 --> 0:59:47.520 goes on anymore, but it was hosted in Corsica by 0:59:47.920 --> 0:59:51.560 what was a very well organized radical socialist youth movement 0:59:51.640 --> 0:59:55.000 in Corsica, where people from northern Ireland, people from the 0:59:55.080 --> 1:00:06.280 Basque country, people from um, uh, what's the one in Barcelona, Oh, um, Calonia, Catalonia. Yeah, 1:00:06.320 --> 1:00:08.080 people from there would come, you know, all people from 1:00:08.120 --> 1:00:11.480 different breakaway regions or whatever, and they would all come 1:00:11.520 --> 1:00:13.160 and they would all meet in courseco and they would 1:00:13.200 --> 1:00:16.120 talk about tactics and politics and whatever. So it's a 1:00:16.240 --> 1:00:20.720 very very interesting culture place, amazing history. Fucking the Poland 1:00:20.800 --> 1:00:23.320 is from Napoleon is from there. You know that's what 1:00:23.520 --> 1:00:26.680 you want. Um. So yeah, it's a really cool place. 1:00:26.840 --> 1:00:29.480 And you know, we only documented one side of it, 1:00:29.560 --> 1:00:31.800 a very radical side of it, because that's what was 1:00:31.840 --> 1:00:34.480 happening that weekend to dispatch. But there are a lot 1:00:34.520 --> 1:00:36.680 of moderates as well. There were a lot of like political, 1:00:36.840 --> 1:00:40.200 very smart political moderate moderates that are like, look, we 1:00:40.240 --> 1:00:43.080 don't want violence, but we do want autonomy, we want something. 1:00:43.520 --> 1:00:45.360 And they you know, they said, oh, you only showed 1:00:45.400 --> 1:00:47.440 the militant side of It's like, well, you weren't on 1:00:47.480 --> 1:00:49.760 the street that day, you know, these kids were, so 1:00:49.920 --> 1:00:53.560 obviously that's how it works. But yeah, I would to 1:00:53.640 --> 1:00:55.480 actually a question again. Sorry, I would say just if 1:00:55.480 --> 1:00:58.880 you're interested in the region, um check it out. And 1:00:59.680 --> 1:01:02.040 they're there's there's a film if you can find it 1:01:02.120 --> 1:01:04.160 in English subtitles, send it to me. But there's a 1:01:04.200 --> 1:01:09.440 fictionalized film about the effllency. I think it's called A 1:01:09.560 --> 1:01:13.560 Life of violence. Um, that's actually like quite good. It's 1:01:13.560 --> 1:01:15.920 a bit romantic size, but it's quite good in terms 1:01:16.000 --> 1:01:18.840 of explaining this situation there if you speak French. Checked 1:01:18.840 --> 1:01:21.120 out and just check out like course Martin and all 1:01:21.160 --> 1:01:24.280 these these other kind of local reporters there. People are like, oh, 1:01:24.320 --> 1:01:26.200 it's too hard to find them. It does feel like that, 1:01:26.280 --> 1:01:30.080 but once you find them, you find them all. So yeah, awesome. Well, 1:01:30.280 --> 1:01:33.200 Jake Canrahan, thank you so much. Check out the new 1:01:33.240 --> 1:01:39.120 Popular Front dispatch on Corsica. Um, by the way to YouTube. Yeah, 1:01:39.200 --> 1:01:41.600 so check out all the Popular Front stuff on YouTube. 1:01:41.680 --> 1:01:44.360 You've got a great documentary out also about the territorial 1:01:44.480 --> 1:01:47.760 defense militias in Ukraine that you're filmed right before ship went. 1:01:47.920 --> 1:01:51.440 Yeah you know where it is. Yeah, yeah, we're standing 1:01:51.640 --> 1:01:55.240 it because we're a bit like how do we yea, 1:01:55.440 --> 1:01:57.400 how do we make this most relevant? But it's it's 1:01:57.440 --> 1:02:00.240 coming that it's it will be quite interesting. Excited the 1:02:00.280 --> 1:02:03.160 perspective before. Yeah, the ship you're posting on Twitter was 1:02:03.240 --> 1:02:07.160 really interesting. Um, so yeah check that out when it's out. 1:02:07.240 --> 1:02:10.680 Check out all the Popular fronts other stuff. Um and yeah, 1:02:10.840 --> 1:02:13.960 thank you Jake. Let's uh, well we'll have you back 1:02:14.000 --> 1:02:33.000 on soon. All right, thank you very much. Welcome to 1:02:33.080 --> 1:02:39.840 it could happen here the podcast, the podcast, every episode. 1:02:42.440 --> 1:02:45.440 When you open too many podcasts, you you lose the 1:02:45.520 --> 1:02:49.840 ability to open podcasts anyway. Uh St Andrew, UM, this 1:02:50.000 --> 1:02:51.880 is your episode, so I'm gonna let you. Let you 1:02:52.160 --> 1:02:57.720 take it, take it away, take us on a journey. Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hi, 1:03:00.120 --> 1:03:03.400 good afternoon, and good night. UM. Today we just wanted 1:03:03.440 --> 1:03:09.320 to cover rather broad topic. I don't even know if 1:03:09.360 --> 1:03:13.320 it's gonna be released before the end of February, probably not, 1:03:14.200 --> 1:03:16.920 But in honor of Black History Month, I wanted to 1:03:17.040 --> 1:03:23.600 cover the history of Caribbean resistance to slavery and the 1:03:23.680 --> 1:03:30.000 different ways that manifested across the Caribbean. For those who 1:03:30.720 --> 1:03:37.160 don't know, UM, slavery in the Caribbean took place for 1:03:37.440 --> 1:03:42.560 several hundred years, beginning with the enslavement of the Amerindians 1:03:42.640 --> 1:03:49.040 the and continuing up until the abolition of slavery in 1:03:49.520 --> 1:03:55.200 three four, at least in British territories. UM. Before then, 1:03:56.360 --> 1:04:04.160 there were multiple struggles UM against the institution, both passive 1:04:04.560 --> 1:04:09.400 and active, and in every step of the process. UM. 1:04:10.320 --> 1:04:14.680 And then, of course post slavery, they were also multiple 1:04:14.960 --> 1:04:21.040 rebellions and insurrections and strikes that took place in the region. 1:04:21.840 --> 1:04:28.160 But I can't cover the well they about seven thousand 1:04:28.200 --> 1:04:30.480 islands in the Caribbean, give or take, but I can't 1:04:30.520 --> 1:04:33.040 cover the histories of all of those for the past 1:04:33.160 --> 1:04:35.919 couple of thousand years. But I will try to cover 1:04:36.240 --> 1:04:40.040 fairly generally the different forms of resistance that took place, 1:04:41.560 --> 1:04:45.040 starting with, of course, the resistances took place in Africa. 1:04:45.520 --> 1:04:48.840 I mean even before and state of people were put 1:04:48.880 --> 1:04:51.880 on these ships, even before they were captured. They were 1:04:51.960 --> 1:04:56.560 measures they were taken to protect themselves from enslavement. There 1:04:56.720 --> 1:05:01.360 was of course flight in the sense of running away um. 1:05:01.440 --> 1:05:06.520 But there was also evidence of Africans moving their villages 1:05:07.040 --> 1:05:12.600 to inaccessible areas like mountains or um or deeper into 1:05:12.640 --> 1:05:17.200 the forest were less accessible for enslaved people UM sorry 1:05:17.240 --> 1:05:22.440 for enslavers to try to capture their people. One of 1:05:22.560 --> 1:05:29.680 the more famous enslaved people um Luada Equino. He founded 1:05:29.720 --> 1:05:37.840 a society in Britain after being enslaved and taken to 1:05:38.080 --> 1:05:42.800 the Caribbean and eventually moving to Britain after becoming a 1:05:42.880 --> 1:05:46.840 freedman and starting the Sons of Africa abolitionist group. He 1:05:46.920 --> 1:05:50.320 had written his own autobiography, The Interesting Narrative of the 1:05:50.440 --> 1:05:56.600 Life of Daquino, and he detailed some of the horrors 1:05:56.640 --> 1:06:00.360 of slavery from an enslaved person's perspective and to a 1:06:00.480 --> 1:06:03.680 lot of what we knew about slavery and how it 1:06:03.880 --> 1:06:10.240 could ah comes from his personal account, among others. Of course, 1:06:11.280 --> 1:06:13.440 so he spoke about some of the measures that were 1:06:13.480 --> 1:06:19.040 taken in his own village to defend against capture. But 1:06:19.280 --> 1:06:24.640 um he after being captured, of course, from the Kingdom 1:06:24.640 --> 1:06:31.000 of Indian around he ended up being taken on the 1:06:31.800 --> 1:06:37.360 slave ships, separated from his families and carried with four 1:06:37.360 --> 1:06:41.760 other people across the Atlantic to Barbados, and then eventually 1:06:42.320 --> 1:06:46.560 taken to Virginia, and then from Virginia being bought by 1:06:46.920 --> 1:06:52.400 a Royal Navy lieutenant and eventually being freed. During the 1:06:53.040 --> 1:06:56.560 voyages that it could, and they were multiple during the 1:06:56.640 --> 1:07:00.280 whole Triangle trade, it has been said that one in 1:07:00.440 --> 1:07:04.240 ten of all Atlantic crossings through the Middle prop passage 1:07:04.680 --> 1:07:10.440 had some kind of rebellion, whether it be through taking 1:07:10.520 --> 1:07:12.840 control of the ships and attempting to seal them back 1:07:12.880 --> 1:07:16.760 to Africa with the assistance of the crew without all 1:07:16.880 --> 1:07:21.680 of Africans battling against other ships um or in one 1:07:21.760 --> 1:07:28.280 case in Amistat, in some Africans were taken captive above 1:07:28.560 --> 1:07:32.840 aboard a cargo ship and they free themselves, killed the 1:07:32.920 --> 1:07:36.840 captain and the cook, and forced them to take them 1:07:36.880 --> 1:07:41.360 back to Sierra Leone, but instead the owners of the 1:07:41.360 --> 1:07:44.680 ship ended up taking them to the United States, where 1:07:44.680 --> 1:07:50.600 they were captured by the coast Guard. Jesus, yeah, it's 1:07:50.640 --> 1:07:57.840 a lot um one slaveship surgeon guy named Alexander Falconbridge 1:07:58.320 --> 1:08:02.520 became an abolitionist because he's so well. The first of all, 1:08:02.560 --> 1:08:07.680 he saw the horrible conditions that were present on those 1:08:07.720 --> 1:08:10.320 ships in the Middle Passage, where you know, hundreds of 1:08:10.400 --> 1:08:16.759 people were shackled together and crammed into these tight enclosed, dark, 1:08:17.120 --> 1:08:24.519 wet infected spaces for weeks on anger being taken across, 1:08:25.160 --> 1:08:29.160 and of course a lot of the so called cargo, 1:08:29.400 --> 1:08:32.639 the people who were on route to be enslaved, were 1:08:33.320 --> 1:08:37.280 killed by the conditions presidents on those slave ships. However, 1:08:37.439 --> 1:08:40.280 despite the fact that you know, so many people were 1:08:40.360 --> 1:08:47.200 dying from the terrible conditions of the ships, the slave 1:08:47.280 --> 1:08:51.600 trade was so profitable for the enslavers and for the 1:08:52.479 --> 1:08:58.120 economies of the colonial nations that it was still there 1:08:58.160 --> 1:09:01.320 was still they were still not only able to break 1:09:01.400 --> 1:09:07.400 even but profit massively from the excursions. And even though 1:09:07.479 --> 1:09:10.679 the Middle Passage got more and more dangerous for cruise 1:09:10.720 --> 1:09:17.640 as rebellions became more and more expected, production for more shackles, 1:09:17.880 --> 1:09:22.400 more weaponry to keep captives secured a rose in England 1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:28.880 and helped to secure some of their travels. Of course, 1:09:28.920 --> 1:09:33.799 they were also times where Africans would burn the ships 1:09:33.880 --> 1:09:36.600 they were on, or where they would jump off of 1:09:36.680 --> 1:09:40.679 the ships. As I'm sure many people remember kill Monker's 1:09:41.360 --> 1:09:46.839 famous Final Woods in Black Panther. And from what I remember, 1:09:47.600 --> 1:09:51.320 the first and slaved people who arrived in Hispaniola immediately 1:09:51.720 --> 1:09:56.360 ran away and we're able to escape before being recaptured 1:09:57.320 --> 1:10:01.920 once Um and say people arrived in the horrible conditions 1:10:02.800 --> 1:10:05.960 at the various colonies in the Caribbean. One of the 1:10:07.479 --> 1:10:16.360 major projects of their colonial overlords was to convert them 1:10:16.960 --> 1:10:21.080 while in the process of you know, enslaving them. Of course, 1:10:21.120 --> 1:10:26.200 a lot of enslaved people were dying very rapidly due 1:10:26.240 --> 1:10:31.280 to the diseases and the terrible working conditions they had 1:10:31.320 --> 1:10:37.120 to endure. Right for those who did survive, Um separated 1:10:37.160 --> 1:10:41.880 from their families, from their ties to kinship, from really 1:10:42.000 --> 1:10:44.559 their home and everything that came along with it. As 1:10:44.920 --> 1:10:49.720 displaced indigenous people, they had to figure out ways to 1:10:50.840 --> 1:10:59.840 maintain and protect their cultures um from you know, naming conventions, 1:11:00.040 --> 1:11:04.080 to craftsmanship, to the language, to philosophy, to believes to 1:11:04.200 --> 1:11:08.639 music to dance. These are all elements of African cultures 1:11:08.760 --> 1:11:14.040 that would provide psychological support for captives. We need to 1:11:14.080 --> 1:11:18.120 resist the process of enslavement because enslavement is an act 1:11:18.240 --> 1:11:22.360 of breaking the will and erasing the humanity of the enslave. 1:11:23.960 --> 1:11:30.840 Practices like voodoo um in Heity or obia in Trinidad 1:11:31.880 --> 1:11:41.240 and Jamaica, we're able to strengthen the revolutionary efforts of 1:11:42.280 --> 1:11:49.160 rebellious Africans and so in the Haitian Revolution, you know, 1:11:49.280 --> 1:11:53.479 they were fueled by voodoo and the ceremonies that oc 1:11:53.520 --> 1:11:59.000 could then and we're able to eventually, you know, free 1:11:59.439 --> 1:12:05.160 the people of Haiti and established the first independent black 1:12:05.200 --> 1:12:08.000 republic in the New World. You need to know for 1:12:08.960 --> 1:12:11.960 so other forms of cultural resistance, and one of the 1:12:12.040 --> 1:12:15.719 main forms of culture resistance was the preservation of African 1:12:15.760 --> 1:12:21.400 culture through pre realization, through the melding and the hiding 1:12:21.560 --> 1:12:25.800 in some cases of elements of African culture with um 1:12:25.960 --> 1:12:30.960 European cultural forms to create these new cultures and new languages. 1:12:31.400 --> 1:12:36.240 Um Quol is one example, particularly Antilian Creole, which is 1:12:36.280 --> 1:12:45.360 related to Haitian Creole. These languages helped to maintain um 1:12:46.520 --> 1:12:49.719 some measure of identity for people who will be actively 1:12:49.800 --> 1:12:56.000 being stripped of it. Women in particular play a major 1:12:56.200 --> 1:13:01.320 role in this process of culture of resistance and cultural 1:13:01.400 --> 1:13:06.800 preservation because in African societies they were. African societies often 1:13:06.920 --> 1:13:11.519 made trilineal and mature, local and women played a key 1:13:11.680 --> 1:13:16.160 role in passing traditions onto their daughters and other young 1:13:16.200 --> 1:13:19.760 women and to the community at large through storytelling and 1:13:19.920 --> 1:13:26.599 through um the sharing of skills and beliefs and ideas, 1:13:27.439 --> 1:13:31.120 and so African women played a major rule in keeping 1:13:31.160 --> 1:13:34.320 the tradition going and at lineage going, maintaining the memory 1:13:34.439 --> 1:13:40.480 of people like a Nancy and Rare Rabbits and Mamadalu 1:13:40.680 --> 1:13:46.799 and Sukyans and all these other folkloric figures who bavy 1:13:47.200 --> 1:13:56.240 marks of African traditions. Women under slavery also had to 1:13:56.920 --> 1:14:03.919 do what they could to resist the consist consistent UM violence, 1:14:04.040 --> 1:14:09.720 sexual violence that was um being done to them. By 1:14:09.840 --> 1:14:17.320 their cool your masters, UM abortion and UM birth control, 1:14:18.160 --> 1:14:23.400 UM and other forms of resistance against sexual assault, resisting 1:14:23.400 --> 1:14:30.240 their masters, feeling illness. All these things worked too, not 1:14:30.439 --> 1:14:40.120 necessarily protect them, but two keep them going and try 1:14:40.200 --> 1:14:44.600 to steve off the worst elements of violence it was 1:14:44.640 --> 1:14:49.400 being done to them. As I mentioned the Haitian Revolution 1:14:49.640 --> 1:14:54.080 and being fueled by voodoo and whatnot. It really scared 1:14:54.520 --> 1:14:57.200 planters across the Cribban and across the world, really like 1:14:57.880 --> 1:15:00.240 this is the first time something I did sort of 1:15:00.640 --> 1:15:06.599 happened before. And I'm sure, uh the U s audience knew. 1:15:06.640 --> 1:15:11.080 Is a bit about the consequences in the US. How 1:15:11.320 --> 1:15:15.920 you know Southern slave masters were so terrified by the 1:15:16.000 --> 1:15:22.400 Asian Revolution, how France um imposed restrictions on heity, and 1:15:23.000 --> 1:15:25.880 how the US and other European powers were complicit in 1:15:26.000 --> 1:15:33.200 that attempts to strangle the first Black Republic. But there 1:15:33.240 --> 1:15:37.040 were cases in other parts of the Caribbean where planters 1:15:38.080 --> 1:15:42.880 um in their terror, used the Asian Revolution has an 1:15:42.920 --> 1:15:47.400 excuse to crackdown on the enslaved um, for example in 1:15:47.439 --> 1:15:50.519 Trenidad in the Christmas of eighteen o five. The Hassian 1:15:50.560 --> 1:15:54.640 Revolution ended in eighteen o four, so in Christmas of 1:15:54.680 --> 1:16:01.160 eighteen five, UM, the planters were so fraid and had 1:16:01.240 --> 1:16:05.560 really seen some acts of poisoning that we're occurring on 1:16:05.640 --> 1:16:09.320 some of the estates, because part of the cultural resistance 1:16:09.400 --> 1:16:15.400 involved the passing down of certain recipes and poisons and concoctions, 1:16:16.000 --> 1:16:21.800 and so many enslavers you know, fell victim couldn't quote 1:16:22.200 --> 1:16:27.760 to poisoners, and so they had to try to find 1:16:27.800 --> 1:16:32.200 a way to prevent what they saw was a planned uprising. 1:16:32.840 --> 1:16:36.120 They basically invented this idea of a conspiracy in their 1:16:36.160 --> 1:16:39.760 paranoia that was meant to wipe out this entire slave 1:16:39.760 --> 1:16:44.280 owning population during that in one go. So of course, 1:16:44.439 --> 1:16:49.000 as historians have uncovered, the conspiracy most likely didn't actually 1:16:49.080 --> 1:16:53.880 exist or maybe perhaps not today the scale that um 1:16:55.600 --> 1:16:59.160 the slave owners thought, but it was more so an 1:16:59.240 --> 1:17:06.439 attempt by the planters to impose greater authoritarian rule as 1:17:06.600 --> 1:17:10.760 Christmas Day needs, you know, five approached the details of 1:17:10.880 --> 1:17:15.800 this conspiracy, of this plot sorted to be uncovered by 1:17:15.840 --> 1:17:19.160 the planters. UM they thought that, you know, at this 1:17:19.280 --> 1:17:25.960 place called Chance Estate, enslaved people we're organizing to launch 1:17:26.040 --> 1:17:31.640 their revolution. And of course this terrified them because at 1:17:31.680 --> 1:17:34.280 that point in time, the enslaved population was somewhere around 1:17:35.920 --> 1:17:39.960 whereas the white slave owning class it was like half 1:17:40.040 --> 1:17:44.960 that number. And so the authorities declared martial law and 1:17:46.320 --> 1:17:50.400 apprehended those involved if they were even involved. Oftentimes they 1:17:50.439 --> 1:17:55.679 were not. But it does bring attention to an important 1:17:55.760 --> 1:18:01.840 part of enslave resistance, and that being the conspiracy and 1:18:02.080 --> 1:18:10.400 actual existence of slave secret societies. Secret societies are something that, ah, 1:18:11.360 --> 1:18:16.280 It's something that's common in the African Madan land where 1:18:17.800 --> 1:18:24.640 tribal rights and initiations and advancements through those rights um 1:18:24.760 --> 1:18:28.719 in secret groupings would occur um to sort of denote 1:18:29.200 --> 1:18:35.360 levels of ranco maturity and so in slave society, as 1:18:35.600 --> 1:18:41.799 different tribes mixed and mingled and plantations for security reasons. 1:18:42.800 --> 1:18:50.160 These secret societies continued but had assimilated some European systems 1:18:50.200 --> 1:18:52.760 of order and designation. So they gave themselves names like 1:18:52.960 --> 1:18:58.320 major or Captain and described their societies as regiments and 1:18:58.560 --> 1:19:04.320 the echoes the descendants of those societies still exists to 1:19:04.479 --> 1:19:09.360 this day in Trindad. They are highly obscured. I honestly 1:19:09.400 --> 1:19:11.640 don't know much details about them. I just know that 1:19:12.800 --> 1:19:17.560 I have some friends whose relatives um are involved in 1:19:17.640 --> 1:19:23.879 those secret societies, and in some places like for example 1:19:24.000 --> 1:19:28.840 Grancouver where and stay people seized the land and sort 1:19:28.880 --> 1:19:31.479 of held that land and kept it and passed it 1:19:31.520 --> 1:19:36.799 down across the generations. Um, such secret societies and membership 1:19:36.840 --> 1:19:41.600 in such secret societies is not unheard of. So is 1:19:41.680 --> 1:19:46.400 what the the modern ish versions of them do? Like 1:19:46.520 --> 1:19:49.439 what what what? What what are they doing? I guess 1:19:50.840 --> 1:19:54.080 like these days if if there's something that is, I 1:19:54.240 --> 1:19:59.320 don't know much about about them or how they operate. Yeah, 1:19:59.360 --> 1:20:01.479 and so I don't think all the secret societies and 1:20:01.520 --> 1:20:07.160 turned at are descended from enslave serious societies like obviously not. 1:20:07.400 --> 1:20:12.400 There are other um secret societies, their societies of doctors 1:20:12.600 --> 1:20:17.200 and of lawyers and different treads um. There of course 1:20:18.479 --> 1:20:24.000 Mason groups as well, and I well, you know, the 1:20:24.160 --> 1:20:30.679 most um superficial details of most of these groups essentially 1:20:30.800 --> 1:20:32.360 thing that comes up a look that there there's a 1:20:32.400 --> 1:20:36.080 whole bunch of like these sort of secret society groups 1:20:36.160 --> 1:20:38.000 that like wind up being part of an engine leven 1:20:38.000 --> 1:20:40.800 revolution in China, but they sort of, like most of them, 1:20:40.880 --> 1:20:44.160 kind of go bandit like after the revolution happens. And 1:20:44.240 --> 1:20:47.400 so it's just it's interesting to see I guess, like 1:20:47.880 --> 1:20:50.160 different contexts where they don't seem to have like just 1:20:50.320 --> 1:20:54.280 over itly turned into organized crime groups. Right, what's the 1:20:54.880 --> 1:20:58.120 like organized crime groups descended from secret societies in China, 1:20:58.880 --> 1:21:02.000 the Triads, for example. Yeah, I actually don't think the 1:21:02.040 --> 1:21:04.080 Triers send it from them. A couple of them joined 1:21:04.120 --> 1:21:06.000 the Communists, a lot of them kind of got wiped 1:21:06.040 --> 1:21:09.160 out in the sort of just general warlord fighting, and 1:21:09.200 --> 1:21:11.800 then some of them kind of got stumped up by 1:21:11.800 --> 1:21:16.080 the Communists because they were basically turned into organized their 1:21:16.120 --> 1:21:18.640 own organized crime things were sort of distinct from the 1:21:18.640 --> 1:21:23.600 other ones existed. But right, there were seven major rebellions 1:21:23.800 --> 1:21:27.360 in the Colony of Jamaica between sixteen seventy three and 1:21:27.479 --> 1:21:32.560 sixteen six, and several others in Antigua, in Nevus, in 1:21:32.800 --> 1:21:38.599 Fujian Islands, in you know, Barbados, in just across the Caribbean. 1:21:39.520 --> 1:21:43.360 There was continual African resistance and rebellion, and that really 1:21:43.479 --> 1:21:46.800 is what struck fair in these stave woulders at the time. 1:21:47.880 --> 1:21:50.800 In one case, um in seventeen thirty three, during the 1:21:50.880 --> 1:21:54.680 Amino Rebellion on St. John, which is part of the 1:21:54.800 --> 1:21:57.960 Danish Fusion Islands, or was part of the Danish Fusian Islands. 1:21:58.800 --> 1:22:01.880 The African inslusions to controlled the island for six months 1:22:01.960 --> 1:22:08.280 before being defeated, and the most slave rebellions really occurred 1:22:08.880 --> 1:22:12.919 in Jamaica, in fact, more than all the other colonies, 1:22:13.320 --> 1:22:16.160 more than all the other British colonies in the Caribbean combined. 1:22:17.600 --> 1:22:19.640 One of the most famous of the Jamaican rebellions was 1:22:20.439 --> 1:22:22.360 one of the Sudden seventeen six day by a man 1:22:22.439 --> 1:22:25.840 known as Tachi, had lasted for over a year before 1:22:25.880 --> 1:22:32.280 being suppressed by British colonial forces. Because Jamaica's population was 1:22:33.320 --> 1:22:38.240 massively overwhelmingly black in comparison to the very small minority 1:22:38.360 --> 1:22:44.160 of large slaveholding white, they were more likely to launch 1:22:44.520 --> 1:22:48.679 and more likely to succeed in slave refools. Um. Slave 1:22:48.720 --> 1:22:50.559 refolds are more likely to happen, of course, where slaves 1:22:50.600 --> 1:22:55.519 outnumber white, where masters are absent, where there's economic distress, 1:22:55.640 --> 1:22:59.160 where they are split within the ruling elite um, and 1:22:59.360 --> 1:23:03.599 when large numbers of Native one Africans from one area 1:23:03.800 --> 1:23:06.040 of brought in one time, which is why they often 1:23:06.080 --> 1:23:09.799 have to split up. There the people that they captured 1:23:09.840 --> 1:23:11.720 so they wouldn't be able to collaborate with their king. 1:23:12.840 --> 1:23:16.479 We often remember the flashy of forms of revolts such 1:23:16.520 --> 1:23:20.679 as the revolt in St. Joseph in seven led by Dagger, 1:23:20.920 --> 1:23:24.680 who is a former African chief in Guinea and the 1:23:24.800 --> 1:23:30.840 leader of the first British West India regiment Um. He 1:23:31.120 --> 1:23:37.800 mutinied along with two men, and although they were taken 1:23:37.880 --> 1:23:44.720 into custody and sentenced to death, they marked just one 1:23:44.760 --> 1:23:49.280 example of this sort of bold actions that were taken 1:23:49.479 --> 1:23:53.000 by in state of people in Tobago um in the 1:23:53.080 --> 1:23:58.240 year seventeen seventy. There were numerous armed the volts over 1:23:58.280 --> 1:24:02.839 the next eleven years, from seventy sev one, six armed revolts, 1:24:03.160 --> 1:24:06.599 one by led by an enslaveman named Sandy in seventeen 1:24:06.640 --> 1:24:10.160 seventy two in seventeen seventy one, one in June lyet 1:24:10.200 --> 1:24:13.439 in August one in seventeen seventy three, another in seventeen 1:24:13.479 --> 1:24:17.839 seventy four, another eighteen o one. And so these revolts 1:24:17.840 --> 1:24:20.040 to that constry didn't one specific year of the island. 1:24:20.479 --> 1:24:24.240 They would happened in some cases over the entire island. 1:24:24.600 --> 1:24:28.160 Tobago is of course separate from trained Dad until eight nine, 1:24:28.479 --> 1:24:33.000 where it became a ward of Trina Tobago. But and 1:24:33.120 --> 1:24:36.040 so their history is the history of Trian Island history 1:24:36.040 --> 1:24:41.760 of Tobago. We're separate, running separately for the first couple 1:24:41.880 --> 1:24:49.920 hundred years of the age of colonization, but Tobago's history 1:24:49.960 --> 1:24:55.120 of resistance is still connected in some ways to trend 1:24:55.200 --> 1:24:57.679 dads history of resistance in the sense of the bold 1:24:57.760 --> 1:25:01.479 actions that would taken by a slave people. Of course, 1:25:01.560 --> 1:25:06.360 not all resistance to slavery was so bold. Day to 1:25:06.439 --> 1:25:09.560 day resistance was by far the most common form of 1:25:09.640 --> 1:25:14.560 opposition to slavery, whether it be through feigning illness, staging slowdowns, 1:25:15.400 --> 1:25:23.160 pretending ignorance, deliver a carelessness, awsome sabotage, breaking tools. These 1:25:23.200 --> 1:25:32.200 sorts of expressions, while they reinforced previously held perceptions of 1:25:33.479 --> 1:25:42.000 enslaved Africans at the time, they also ways of enslaved 1:25:42.040 --> 1:25:45.439 people to express their alienation and to sort of corve 1:25:46.479 --> 1:25:49.200 some level of space or breathing room, or to give 1:25:49.240 --> 1:25:55.200 themselves some sense of catharsis in that brutal period. And 1:25:55.240 --> 1:25:58.200 so what we see is a sort of continuum of 1:25:58.280 --> 1:26:04.320 resistance from that sort of individual level of slowing down 1:26:04.520 --> 1:26:09.200 or failing ignorance or what or whatever, to the sort 1:26:09.240 --> 1:26:14.200 of broader cultural methods of passive resistance, such as you know, 1:26:15.520 --> 1:26:21.600 cultivating and passing down culture and cultural memories to the 1:26:21.680 --> 1:26:25.160 more bold aspects of resistance such as revolts and rebellions 1:26:25.240 --> 1:26:35.400 and revolutions. And of course there was the practice of maroonage, 1:26:36.520 --> 1:26:43.040 both petite and grand maroonage. Petite maroonage was an effort 1:26:43.240 --> 1:26:49.640 by individuals or groups of unstated people to escape from 1:26:49.680 --> 1:26:55.519 their plantations permanentally sometimes but usually for a limited amount 1:26:55.560 --> 1:27:01.879 of time, to escape mistreatment, to nick sheet better treatment, 1:27:02.840 --> 1:27:07.839 or it's even just catch a break honestly. Grand moonage 1:27:07.960 --> 1:27:13.440 is more commonly understood and recognized where communities of fugitive 1:27:13.720 --> 1:27:19.960 slaves would establish communities on the fringes in the swamps 1:27:20.439 --> 1:27:25.719 of Louisiana, for example, or in the mountains of Jamaica, 1:27:27.080 --> 1:27:31.439 and these moon communities have been established since the very beginning, 1:27:32.160 --> 1:27:35.120 since the early sixteenth century. When the fust and slave 1:27:35.120 --> 1:27:38.439 Africans are brought to the Caribbean by the Spanish, they 1:27:38.479 --> 1:27:42.000 would often unite with Amerindians, whether it be you know 1:27:42.160 --> 1:27:48.680 Tinos or Kalinago's, or go to base and unite with 1:27:48.800 --> 1:27:56.960 them in their resistance in carving out settlements or strongholds 1:27:57.160 --> 1:28:01.400 of safety. For example, in fifty forty six. In Hispaniola, 1:28:01.640 --> 1:28:05.080 there were over seven thousand Maroons among a slave population 1:28:05.160 --> 1:28:09.479 of eight thousands. After the island was split between the 1:28:09.560 --> 1:28:12.120 French santoming which is later which is now known as 1:28:12.200 --> 1:28:16.120 Haiti and the Spanish Santo Domingo, which is the Dominican Republic. 1:28:16.640 --> 1:28:21.320 In Maroons took advantage of the hostility between France and 1:28:21.400 --> 1:28:24.960 Spain to maintain settlements along the border between the two 1:28:25.600 --> 1:28:28.639 throughout the period of slavery. Addition, there were the Ruins 1:28:28.680 --> 1:28:32.680 in Cuba, in Puerto Rico, and in some cases with 1:28:32.720 --> 1:28:39.200 Puerto Rico. Fugitive slaves from the Virgin Islands would literally 1:28:39.320 --> 1:28:43.840 set sail to Puerto Rico to settle and escape the 1:28:43.960 --> 1:28:49.480 enslavemands there. In Jamaica, of course, there are many ruined communities, 1:28:49.640 --> 1:28:52.920 and in fact, there is still an active Maroon community 1:28:52.960 --> 1:28:56.120 in Jamaica to this day that has persisted and maintained 1:28:56.160 --> 1:29:01.439 their traditions. Um Insane Kits in Antigua, in Barbados, in 1:29:01.560 --> 1:29:05.680 Martinique and Guada Loup. All of these islands have had 1:29:06.200 --> 1:29:13.360 Moon communities established um However, as European cultivation the islands increased. 1:29:13.439 --> 1:29:16.559 As Europeans ventured further and further into the islands, into 1:29:16.600 --> 1:29:18.920 the depths of the islands, it became more and more 1:29:18.960 --> 1:29:22.040 difficult to establish moon settlements because if you look at 1:29:22.920 --> 1:29:27.439 some of the smaller islands, it's kind of difficult to 1:29:27.640 --> 1:29:32.040 hide or to establish any sort of sustainable community on 1:29:32.160 --> 1:29:38.360 the fringes of an island that you could easily jog 1:29:38.560 --> 1:29:42.080 from one side to the other, or you know, walk 1:29:42.160 --> 1:29:45.560 from one side to the other. Of course, even on 1:29:45.640 --> 1:29:49.680 those smaller islands, there were still attempts to maintain moon settlements, 1:29:49.720 --> 1:29:53.599 such as in St. Vincent or Dominica. In St. Vincent, 1:29:53.960 --> 1:29:59.400 the Garifuna, which an indigenous group mixed who mixed with Africans, 1:30:00.200 --> 1:30:03.879 preserved they depend their independence against both French and the British, 1:30:04.439 --> 1:30:07.799 and they ended up spreading to um if I recall 1:30:07.880 --> 1:30:11.240 correctly Central America as well, and so the Garifona community 1:30:11.360 --> 1:30:13.920 is still very much alive and well to this day. 1:30:16.720 --> 1:30:21.879 In Jamaica and Cuba and Guadeloupe and Hispaniola, Marion communities 1:30:21.920 --> 1:30:25.120 were able to last longer because they had um more 1:30:25.160 --> 1:30:30.280 mountainous terrain to hide in, particularly in Jamaica. Um but 1:30:30.439 --> 1:30:34.200 they were also Maroon communities on the South American mainland. 1:30:34.560 --> 1:30:38.559 You know. In Brazil there was the famous Moroon community 1:30:38.760 --> 1:30:41.479 or quilombo known as pal Mares, which has existed for 1:30:41.640 --> 1:30:47.600 nearly years. From sixteen o five to six, there is 1:30:47.640 --> 1:30:50.720 a certain invasion by both the Dutch and Portuguese and 1:30:50.840 --> 1:30:57.439 had at least ten thousand organized UM members ready to 1:30:57.800 --> 1:31:02.720 defend their operation. They were governed by a king who 1:31:02.840 --> 1:31:08.080 used the political traditions drawn from Central Africa, but they 1:31:08.479 --> 1:31:15.960 unfortunately were eventually destroyed. In the Guyana's French Guyana UM, 1:31:16.600 --> 1:31:20.360 British Guyana which is now called Guyana UM Dutch Guyana 1:31:20.400 --> 1:31:23.679 which is now called surname. Marion communities were also able 1:31:23.680 --> 1:31:26.760 to establish themselves and they still persist to this day 1:31:27.200 --> 1:31:34.280 due to the um Amazon rainforest and the river wheels 1:31:34.400 --> 1:31:41.000 that allowed them to conceal themselves from colonial encroachment. Of course, 1:31:41.040 --> 1:31:43.280 in the US they were all Summaron communities, like the 1:31:43.560 --> 1:31:47.720 Black Seminoles of Florida or the Morion communities in Um 1:31:48.479 --> 1:31:53.360 I believe it was the Louisiana It's most places. Of course, 1:31:53.800 --> 1:31:59.120 Maroon communities were not very large UM or often did 1:31:59.160 --> 1:32:03.680 not last very long. They're usually small thriller bands led 1:32:03.760 --> 1:32:07.679 by an elected chief. But of course these smaller bands 1:32:08.880 --> 1:32:12.560 in there. Although they were small, that sort of protected 1:32:12.640 --> 1:32:19.240 them to some extent from detection and from recapture. In Cuba, 1:32:19.280 --> 1:32:23.120 for example, they were hundreds of small Maroon communities and 1:32:23.240 --> 1:32:26.840 they were guarded, and they were and they had their 1:32:27.040 --> 1:32:31.960 settlements guarded by ditches and steaks and secret paths, and 1:32:32.040 --> 1:32:35.479 these settlements communicated with each other while remaining isolated, so 1:32:35.680 --> 1:32:38.679 they could grow their own crops and hunt and fish 1:32:38.800 --> 1:32:43.559 and trade in peace, sometimes with other islands. In what's 1:32:43.560 --> 1:32:49.840 to prevent again capture and destruction. I think there's a 1:32:49.920 --> 1:32:53.600 lot that we can learn from the different forms of resistance, 1:32:53.640 --> 1:32:57.960 small and large that instead of people, and it took 1:32:58.080 --> 1:33:02.560 throughout the period of colonial settlements and expansion and enslavement, 1:33:03.520 --> 1:33:07.640 elements of their practices and I think could be applied 1:33:08.520 --> 1:33:15.040 to these struggles. Do you have any thoughts before the wrap? Yeah. 1:33:15.240 --> 1:33:18.519 One thing I kind of want to plug is Russell 1:33:18.640 --> 1:33:24.880 Maroon showed wrote a really interesting I I don't know 1:33:25.040 --> 1:33:29.960 exactly what the name for essay, I guess called the 1:33:30.000 --> 1:33:34.519 Dragon and the Hydra, which is a study. Yeah. Yeah, 1:33:34.560 --> 1:33:37.160 it's called Dragon the Hydra study of historical study of 1:33:37.240 --> 1:33:41.120 organizational methods, and it's about basically a comparison of like 1:33:41.280 --> 1:33:46.040 different different kinds of resistance to colony Linsman Enslavement that 1:33:46.080 --> 1:33:48.240 talks a lot about the Roan movement, talks about sort 1:33:48.280 --> 1:33:52.839 of the problems that these sort of like highly centralized, 1:33:52.840 --> 1:33:56.040 top down movements ran into versus the kind of stuff 1:33:56.120 --> 1:33:59.679 that the that these sort of more decentralized, less hierarchical 1:33:59.760 --> 1:34:04.120 momber movements face. And it's it's really interesting and it's 1:34:04.240 --> 1:34:08.760 pretty short, so everyone should just read it because it's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:34:08.880 --> 1:34:14.160 He covers the us p T, Suriname and Jamaica, and 1:34:14.560 --> 1:34:18.440 you know how those different Moon communities dealt with their conditions. 1:34:19.439 --> 1:34:21.640 I'm pretty sure you brought this from prison too, if 1:34:21.680 --> 1:34:26.639 I'm remembering my timeline history correctly. Yes, I highly recommend 1:34:26.720 --> 1:34:29.320 folks without to read. I mean, I don't want to 1:34:29.560 --> 1:34:34.880 give the impression that Uron communities where these like valiant utopias. 1:34:35.000 --> 1:34:40.280 I mean, in some cases Mouron communities who manipulated UM 1:34:40.520 --> 1:34:46.320 against the other and often in exchange for maintaining the autonomy, 1:34:47.400 --> 1:34:50.040 they were made to sign treaties where they would have 1:34:50.160 --> 1:34:54.720 to turn in UM fugitives. So it was not, by 1:34:54.720 --> 1:34:59.800 any means are perfect situation to be in. But they 1:34:59.800 --> 1:35:03.400 were trying to cough out their survival. Yeah, I guess 1:35:04.280 --> 1:35:07.360 do you want to plug your stuff? So you can 1:35:07.439 --> 1:35:10.640 find me on Twitter, at on discore seeing True and 1:35:10.840 --> 1:35:15.639 on YouTube seem to on tourism, where I have lots 1:35:15.680 --> 1:35:17.840 of stuff. I mean, if you were interested in, for example, 1:35:19.080 --> 1:35:23.160 the details of how spirituality played a role in African resistance, 1:35:23.200 --> 1:35:26.120 I have a video on that. If you're interested in, 1:35:27.320 --> 1:35:33.680 you know, how Wada Equa New established the Sons of 1:35:33.680 --> 1:35:39.000 Africa group and how that was one of the foundations 1:35:39.080 --> 1:35:41.400 of what eventually became the Pan Afganist movement. I have 1:35:41.439 --> 1:35:45.080 a video on Pan Africanism that you could check out. So, yeah, 1:35:46.160 --> 1:35:48.400 that's it for me. That was great. I didn't know 1:35:48.439 --> 1:35:52.400 there were still marine communities actually yeah, yeah, the one 1:35:52.400 --> 1:35:57.120 in Jamaica, the one in Suriname. They are still very 1:35:57.160 --> 1:36:01.080 much alive. And well, yeah, it's fascinating. Ah st Andrew, 1:36:01.160 --> 1:36:04.320 thank you for that. That was wonderful. And uh, that's 1:36:04.439 --> 1:36:09.080 that's our episode for today. So go home and doom 1:36:09.200 --> 1:36:14.200 scroll for several hours probably, or or do something productive 1:36:16.960 --> 1:36:20.160 or something. I had a cat, big some cookies, hand 1:36:20.240 --> 1:36:23.240 out food to people who were hungry, you know, big 1:36:23.280 --> 1:36:25.720 some cookies and then handled the cookies to people who 1:36:25.800 --> 1:36:30.240 need or doom scroll, you know, all productive things that 1:36:30.360 --> 1:36:38.840 are some significantly productive. Alright, friends, that's h that's the 1:36:38.920 --> 1:37:07.040 episode piece. Oh that's how you start a podcast. This 1:37:07.200 --> 1:37:10.599 is it could happen here. That's right. That's Robert talking. 1:37:11.280 --> 1:37:15.920 That's right. Also with us, Christopher Wong and Garrison Davis 1:37:16.080 --> 1:37:22.640 do your podcast. Yeah, So we're all gathering today on 1:37:23.040 --> 1:37:25.599 on the day after what I think we'll go down 1:37:25.680 --> 1:37:28.839 as the single most momentous moment in the twenty one century. 1:37:29.280 --> 1:37:33.760 Will Smith slapped Chris Rock on stage at the Oscars. 1:37:34.240 --> 1:37:37.800 So the entire world has pivoted from obsession with the 1:37:37.920 --> 1:37:42.960 massive land war in Eastern Europe to discussing how Chris 1:37:43.240 --> 1:37:45.800 Rock getting slapped is like the massive land war in 1:37:45.840 --> 1:37:51.439 Eastern Europe or or eleven or nine eleven. Yes, yes, yes, 1:37:51.800 --> 1:37:55.560 So it's a it's an amazing, like an unprecedentedly incredible 1:37:55.640 --> 1:37:59.000 time to be on on Twitter right now. That said, 1:37:59.439 --> 1:38:02.920 we're going to talk about Nazi cat boys today. I've 1:38:03.000 --> 1:38:05.759 seen everyone's post on the subreddit being like, why aren't 1:38:05.760 --> 1:38:09.120 you guys giving blow by blows about the war in Ukraine? 1:38:09.760 --> 1:38:13.280 Then this is this is pressing topic, and we're going 1:38:13.320 --> 1:38:17.479 to talk about Nazi cat boys previous to the Chris 1:38:17.640 --> 1:38:19.920 Rock slap. This is the most pressing topic of the 1:38:19.960 --> 1:38:23.600 twenty one century. Um is why there's Nazi catboys? And 1:38:23.680 --> 1:38:25.800 now we're going to talk about it well, because I mean, 1:38:25.840 --> 1:38:28.880 the roots of the crisis in Ukraine are the different 1:38:28.960 --> 1:38:33.840 kinds of cat boys that Zelinsky and Putin are. Yes, 1:38:34.000 --> 1:38:37.280 Robert is fan art. Up, It's gonna be fine. I'm sure. 1:38:37.320 --> 1:38:41.840 I'm sure we'll find some horrible fan art. Yes, m yeah, 1:38:41.920 --> 1:38:44.639 we have. We have to figure out if if Putin's 1:38:44.640 --> 1:38:47.560 ever watched Helsing, and then we'll build to know. So 1:38:48.040 --> 1:38:50.040 I don't know what that means, but okay, you're you're 1:38:50.080 --> 1:38:56.519 about to find out. So great we we have. We 1:38:56.600 --> 1:38:59.120 have gathered here today to talk about to talk about 1:38:59.439 --> 1:39:02.559 the curious case of why there are Nazi capboys. Um 1:39:03.280 --> 1:39:08.680 throut through one TikTok and Twitter pushed from boys and 1:39:08.760 --> 1:39:12.519 cat boys into kind of the cultural mainstream, plunging these 1:39:12.640 --> 1:39:15.759 once much more niche subcultures out of the dark depths 1:39:15.840 --> 1:39:20.840 of fortune, Reddit, Tumbler and discord and uh the latest 1:39:20.880 --> 1:39:25.320 rebirth of these kind of gender bending communities. It's pretty 1:39:25.360 --> 1:39:29.800 socially progressive and affirming. Uh. Like generally most most fem 1:39:29.880 --> 1:39:33.280 boys catboys are are lefties. There's a whole bunch of 1:39:33.360 --> 1:39:36.439 like Twitter communists. I'm sure there's a whole bunch of 1:39:36.720 --> 1:39:39.920 cat boys who like stalling or something. Um, but they're 1:39:39.960 --> 1:39:44.040 they're generally more generally more on the left. But but 1:39:45.160 --> 1:39:48.639 but for for those who've dug deeper into the history 1:39:48.720 --> 1:39:52.000 and origins of these Internet subcultures, you may have found 1:39:52.040 --> 1:39:55.640 a dark, racist, and hateful underbelly. So we're going to 1:39:55.760 --> 1:39:59.160 talk about that today. I do have to note, Garrison, 1:39:59.200 --> 1:40:01.520 as soon as you said that, I found a Stalinist 1:40:01.600 --> 1:40:07.840 catboy the Twitter. It's an incredible account. So the their 1:40:07.960 --> 1:40:10.519 their background image for their Twitter account is a picture 1:40:10.640 --> 1:40:14.679 of Dang Xiaoping and the Ayatollah of Iran having a meeting. 1:40:16.040 --> 1:40:22.120 Their their PfP is a lavender haired Uh. It's like 1:40:22.200 --> 1:40:25.000 a it's like an anime pic here avatar cat boy, yeah, 1:40:25.560 --> 1:40:28.760 with like a Soviet hat and then Marxist Leninist bisexual 1:40:28.840 --> 1:40:32.920 catboy stalin did nothing wrong at North Korea. Stand incredible. 1:40:33.400 --> 1:40:38.639 This is this is this is why the Left will 1:40:38.640 --> 1:40:45.160 never win. That's perfect. I'm pretty sure this is like 1:40:45.360 --> 1:40:50.479 illegal in those countries. It's it would have had this 1:40:50.560 --> 1:40:53.760 person shot In the second someone tried to describe a 1:40:53.840 --> 1:40:56.800 catboy to Joseph Stalin, he would have had this person executed. 1:40:56.960 --> 1:40:59.640 Oh yeah, oh wow, yeah, I see, I see it. Now, 1:41:00.120 --> 1:41:03.800 that is that is intense. You know. The thing is, 1:41:04.080 --> 1:41:05.679 this type of thing is not going to be uncommon. 1:41:05.720 --> 1:41:07.519 We're gonna be again, We're gonna be going into like 1:41:07.640 --> 1:41:10.400 actual fascists who are also cowboys, and obviously they would 1:41:10.439 --> 1:41:13.439 have been would have been killed for being degenerous as well. 1:41:13.840 --> 1:41:15.720 But now we're gonna kind of talk about how this 1:41:15.880 --> 1:41:19.280 how this kind of came to be. And I've been 1:41:19.320 --> 1:41:21.479 writing this for like over a year. Actually, I've interviewed 1:41:21.479 --> 1:41:24.160 a few people for this that I've kind of contributed 1:41:24.280 --> 1:41:26.360 to the script. And initially this was going to be 1:41:26.400 --> 1:41:28.720 conceived as a video. Um, and you can't really talk 1:41:28.760 --> 1:41:31.800 about these things in a video format without dressing up 1:41:32.280 --> 1:41:36.240 like a silly character. So I am. I'm wearing a 1:41:36.439 --> 1:41:39.840 very actually a very very high quality catboy outfend right now, 1:41:40.200 --> 1:41:42.040 which the audio will just have to you'll have to 1:41:42.080 --> 1:41:44.320 You'll have to see it through the audio, So good 1:41:44.400 --> 1:41:49.519 luck with that synesthesia. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, so you 1:41:49.640 --> 1:41:52.200 are at the same time, You've done that enough that 1:41:52.439 --> 1:41:56.040 I don't know that anyone really noticed. I've never dressed 1:41:56.040 --> 1:41:58.719 as a catboy for recording. Before you dress is something 1:41:58.840 --> 1:42:02.160 every other recording. That's true, I addrest as something I 1:42:02.240 --> 1:42:06.840 generally addresses something. So first section one, Section one, what 1:42:07.120 --> 1:42:09.519 is what is a cat boy? What? What is what 1:42:09.680 --> 1:42:12.280 is this? Um So? But first of all, of a 1:42:12.320 --> 1:42:16.000 few ground rules will be circling back too often. UM One, 1:42:16.400 --> 1:42:20.120 not all catboys and femboys identify as LGBT or queer. 1:42:20.840 --> 1:42:24.000 Um and two, gay people can still be racist. These 1:42:24.040 --> 1:42:25.920 are these, These are these, These are two points that 1:42:25.920 --> 1:42:27.800 we're gonna be coming back to over the course of 1:42:27.880 --> 1:42:32.120 these of these deep type episodes. So first things first, 1:42:32.240 --> 1:42:34.200 let's let's just define what a cat boy is for 1:42:34.240 --> 1:42:36.519 all of the boomers in the audience. Um And if 1:42:36.560 --> 1:42:38.040 you are, if you are a boomer listening to this, 1:42:38.600 --> 1:42:41.880 how why how did you find this? Why are why 1:42:41.920 --> 1:42:44.280 did you choose to listen to Garrison? The instant I 1:42:44.400 --> 1:42:46.479 became a boomer was the first time you tried to 1:42:46.560 --> 1:42:50.360 describe explain cat boys to me Like I I suddenly 1:42:50.479 --> 1:42:54.559 developed a strong opinion on hr Halderman because of because 1:42:54.680 --> 1:43:01.760 of me, you so administration Joe, but most simply, um, 1:43:02.000 --> 1:43:04.760 a cat boy. Is this what I'm doing right now? 1:43:05.040 --> 1:43:11.080 So someone who is kind of kind of boyish, who who? Who? 1:43:11.280 --> 1:43:16.200 Who sometimes enjoys dressing in cat like apparel? I guess 1:43:16.400 --> 1:43:19.439 it's like cat ears. It is different from furries from 1:43:19.560 --> 1:43:23.479 and we will we will get into this, um. I mean, 1:43:23.640 --> 1:43:25.680 but I'm I'm definitely less boyish than I first was 1:43:25.720 --> 1:43:27.880 when I wrote this like a year ago, now that 1:43:27.920 --> 1:43:31.599 I'm on recreational estrogen. But nevertheless, someone who's a boyish 1:43:31.600 --> 1:43:34.360 and dresses or likes to dress in cat like kind 1:43:34.400 --> 1:43:40.320 of uh outfits generally on an anime trajectory of aesthetics. Uh. 1:43:40.680 --> 1:43:42.639 Now this is this is this is different from furries 1:43:42.680 --> 1:43:46.000 from multiple reasons. The physical cat like attributes on catboys 1:43:46.040 --> 1:43:50.719 are mostly confined to ears and pause sometimes with tails, 1:43:50.840 --> 1:43:54.200 but it's it's iffy um. Whereas you know, furries like 1:43:54.280 --> 1:43:55.880 to have like the full first suit thing going on, 1:43:56.240 --> 1:43:58.479 whereas catboys they still have like human faces and they 1:43:58.520 --> 1:44:01.120 wear like human clothes. So this is actually a very 1:44:01.200 --> 1:44:04.120 key difference, which will lots of made costumes like and 1:44:04.400 --> 1:44:06.320 yes a lot and the other other big kind of 1:44:06.400 --> 1:44:10.519 recurring trope um is that is that well they well 1:44:10.560 --> 1:44:13.559 catboys you usually wear clothes, is that they usually dress 1:44:13.680 --> 1:44:15.320 up in something similar to like a French made outfit 1:44:15.880 --> 1:44:19.200 um or or like different outfits like anime girls will 1:44:19.240 --> 1:44:22.960 where so like the tennis skirt thing, but generally on 1:44:23.080 --> 1:44:27.720 a made outfit to anime trajectory. So despite despite the 1:44:27.720 --> 1:44:30.640 animal ears, right, despite like the furry cat ears, the 1:44:30.720 --> 1:44:33.120 catboy or cat girls saying has much more in common 1:44:33.160 --> 1:44:35.680 with the fenboy community than the furry community and a 1:44:35.760 --> 1:44:38.400 lot of instances but more more more on that later. 1:44:38.720 --> 1:44:41.960 So after some initial research into the Nazi cat boy meme, 1:44:42.000 --> 1:44:45.400 I decided it would be useful for tracing back the 1:44:45.479 --> 1:44:48.000 roots of this kind of odd online phenomenon to broaden 1:44:48.040 --> 1:44:50.280 the scope of research to include fem boys as well, 1:44:50.960 --> 1:44:54.040 which is syccimctly just cat boys without the cat part. 1:44:54.280 --> 1:44:57.439 It's like boys who or generally male identifying people who 1:44:57.560 --> 1:45:01.800 dressed in like feminine ways. Um. Not a lot of 1:45:01.840 --> 1:45:03.880 fen boys will turn out to be trans and not 1:45:04.040 --> 1:45:05.880 all of them do a lot of fen boys and 1:45:05.920 --> 1:45:08.439 identify as straight. But you know, i'd like to wear 1:45:08.600 --> 1:45:12.040 you know, boys generally kind of in the twink of 1:45:12.080 --> 1:45:16.840 variety who likes to wear skirts, dresses, whatever. So I 1:45:16.880 --> 1:45:18.519 have a much of it a dissection to which gets 1:45:18.520 --> 1:45:20.920 a little bit more silly. Um but but yeah, so 1:45:21.360 --> 1:45:25.639 m boys, it's excited this. This doesn't get less silly 1:45:25.680 --> 1:45:28.200 as we go on. But but yeah, catboys, feen boys. 1:45:28.280 --> 1:45:31.080 Feen boys identify as male dress up in more stereotyptically 1:45:31.120 --> 1:45:34.599 feminine ways. There's a lot of similarity and crossover between 1:45:34.640 --> 1:45:37.559 fen boys and catboys. Um. But since fenboys have more 1:45:37.560 --> 1:45:40.560 of an established online history, uh, including them in the 1:45:40.600 --> 1:45:42.200 research seems like the best way to kind of dig 1:45:42.240 --> 1:45:47.120 into like the fascist femboy nazi catboy idea. So, speaking 1:45:47.160 --> 1:45:50.920 of section two, the racist femboy meme the past the 1:45:50.920 --> 1:45:53.479 past few years, there's been kind of a growing meme 1:45:53.600 --> 1:45:56.600 and perception across social media that fem boys are like 1:45:56.840 --> 1:46:01.320 really racist, um and just kind of pretty fashion in general, um, 1:46:01.880 --> 1:46:04.680 even really homophobic and transphobic and a lot of in 1:46:04.760 --> 1:46:06.880 a lot of senses, as much as a homophobic or 1:46:06.880 --> 1:46:11.040 transphobic femboy may see them contradictory at first. But again, 1:46:11.200 --> 1:46:14.800 more more on this later. Um. So when I'm talking 1:46:14.840 --> 1:46:17.280 about this going forward, I'm probably gonna be mixing words 1:46:17.560 --> 1:46:22.280 in terms like nazi and fascist all right or far right. Now, 1:46:22.479 --> 1:46:24.560 not not all of these racist femboys are what I 1:46:24.600 --> 1:46:28.200 would call Nazis by any means um and not not 1:46:28.400 --> 1:46:31.840 not all advocate for even joke about genocide, but there 1:46:31.880 --> 1:46:35.640 were absolutely recruitment attempts from self described Nazis. And you know, 1:46:35.800 --> 1:46:38.840 the line between jokes and actual beliefs is intentionally very 1:46:38.920 --> 1:46:42.760 foggy in this kind of internet subculture. So I'll kind 1:46:42.760 --> 1:46:46.200 of be lazily lumping together everything from racist to far 1:46:46.320 --> 1:46:49.320 far right wing folks for the sake of simplicity, because 1:46:49.320 --> 1:46:52.000 it's all like in the same spectrum. And like I 1:46:52.080 --> 1:46:54.280 mentioned at the beginning, not all femboys and cat boys 1:46:54.320 --> 1:46:57.160 identify as being queer, um, and gay people can still 1:46:57.160 --> 1:46:58.840 be racist. These there are these are points we're going 1:46:58.880 --> 1:47:02.320 to be circling back to a lot. So at this 1:47:02.439 --> 1:47:06.840 point the alright femboy meme has kind of actually overshadowed 1:47:06.920 --> 1:47:10.439 the actual phenomenon of it happening. Right in the past 1:47:10.479 --> 1:47:13.760 few years, the popularity of leftist fem boys has skyrocketed. 1:47:14.320 --> 1:47:17.519 Yet if you still do digging on like Twitter or Discord, 1:47:17.840 --> 1:47:20.840 you can indeed fed users who appear to be fem boys, 1:47:20.880 --> 1:47:25.880 but are also everything from racist to just openly fascist. Now, naturally, 1:47:25.960 --> 1:47:28.640 that leaves people wondering how can one have such a 1:47:28.760 --> 1:47:33.200 kind of contradictory lifestyle and belief system, which leads us 1:47:33.240 --> 1:47:36.400 to Section three. The Internet and that's it. That's kind 1:47:36.439 --> 1:47:37.960 of that's kind of the answer. We that's we can 1:47:38.080 --> 1:47:41.080 kind of pack it up here. Um, that's the answer. 1:47:41.200 --> 1:47:43.200 It's the Internet. That's that's why that that's why this 1:47:43.280 --> 1:47:49.680 has happened. That's what I'm getting out of this. Yeah, sure, whatever, whatever, 1:47:49.800 --> 1:47:52.800 it's it's Garrison. Are you are you are? Have you 1:47:52.880 --> 1:47:55.240 been caught up on why people say, I'll Gore invented 1:47:55.240 --> 1:47:59.639 the Internet? On where that joke came from? Are you? Oh? Boy, 1:48:00.320 --> 1:48:03.120 you have to you have to remember Chris Carrison's no 1:48:06.640 --> 1:48:09.760 was so there was like al Gore was among a 1:48:09.840 --> 1:48:12.760 bunch of different people who like voted to fund some 1:48:12.880 --> 1:48:15.920 of the different government kind of projects that became the Internet, right, 1:48:16.000 --> 1:48:18.360 like you had the rpnet and ship all that stuff. 1:48:18.720 --> 1:48:21.679 Like he was one of the people who like pushed 1:48:21.760 --> 1:48:24.200 that and then in the debate with George Bush while 1:48:24.280 --> 1:48:28.840 running for president in UH two thousand, he uh like 1:48:29.120 --> 1:48:33.439 basically made some claims that you could uncharitably translate as 1:48:33.479 --> 1:48:36.439 him saying that he invented the internet. Um, he didn't 1:48:36.439 --> 1:48:38.479 actually say that. It was more like he was saying, well, I, 1:48:38.720 --> 1:48:41.800 you know, supported from an early stage the development of 1:48:41.840 --> 1:48:45.120 the Internet. But it got turned into like al Gore 1:48:45.360 --> 1:48:47.719 claimed to have invented the Internet because it was funny. 1:48:48.560 --> 1:48:51.640 Ab yes, and and so now that's that's that's the 1:48:51.720 --> 1:48:55.760 joke is even though he didn't really, he just was 1:48:55.880 --> 1:48:58.840 not you know, but anyway there, so, well we can 1:48:58.960 --> 1:49:00.960 we can blame not the cap was on al Gore. 1:49:02.560 --> 1:49:05.360 Well that that does it for us today. Um, you 1:49:05.400 --> 1:49:07.560 can find us on Wait okay, we still have a 1:49:07.760 --> 1:49:11.200 we still have like half an episode to do. Alright, 1:49:11.320 --> 1:49:15.640 well here's here's speaking of of of al Gore and 1:49:15.720 --> 1:49:18.519 the Internet. Here's some ads brought to you by the Internet. 1:49:19.520 --> 1:49:23.120 Ah boy, those ads were so good they made me 1:49:23.280 --> 1:49:33.000 wanna be a cat. Okay, all right, wow, moving on. Uh. 1:49:33.320 --> 1:49:35.439 If you're in any way familiar with facism, you are 1:49:35.600 --> 1:49:39.920 probably aware that one of it's more consistent traits is 1:49:39.960 --> 1:49:44.960 that it's notoriously ideologically inconsistent. Um. So, for for this project, 1:49:45.040 --> 1:49:48.080 I interviewed multiple people who have a more personal history 1:49:48.320 --> 1:49:51.760 in the cat boy and femboy online communities than I do. UM. 1:49:51.840 --> 1:49:54.200 So those interviews plus my own online digging through like 1:49:54.400 --> 1:49:58.799 hundreds of threads from various form websites, I've I've literally 1:49:58.840 --> 1:50:02.240 looked through hundreds hundreds of the cat boy posts on Fortune. 1:50:02.760 --> 1:50:04.680 But doing doing all that has been very helpful for 1:50:04.800 --> 1:50:08.040 understanding kind of this intersection of politics and subculture. And 1:50:08.120 --> 1:50:09.840 since I did all this research, you don't need to, 1:50:10.120 --> 1:50:12.479 so there you go. Um. But one of the first 1:50:12.560 --> 1:50:14.720 kind of big takeaways I had after the research and 1:50:14.760 --> 1:50:18.760 interviews is that the nazi femboy catboy thing is not 1:50:19.000 --> 1:50:22.240 actually unique at all in terms of Internet radicalization. It 1:50:22.360 --> 1:50:26.719 just has some aesthetic abnormalities that can confuse on liquors 1:50:27.080 --> 1:50:30.559 or normal ease, which makes the internet phenomenon seen more 1:50:30.600 --> 1:50:34.040 outlandish than that actually is. But before we dig deeper 1:50:34.120 --> 1:50:35.800 into this litter box of hate, I would like to 1:50:36.560 --> 1:50:41.559 divide the femboy and catboy kind of racism spectrum into 1:50:41.600 --> 1:50:45.600 actually to two assistinct categories. First, um, we have we 1:50:45.720 --> 1:50:48.400 have type one, which I'm calling the fem fast people 1:50:48.439 --> 1:50:51.400 who are initially into the femboy community and aesthetic and 1:50:51.560 --> 1:50:54.160 then got introduced into far right politics online. And then 1:50:54.200 --> 1:50:56.439 we have type two, the fasci fem people who were 1:50:56.479 --> 1:50:59.599 already into far right politics and only then got introduced 1:50:59.680 --> 1:51:03.360 to the femboy community online. So I I usually break 1:51:03.400 --> 1:51:07.240 down lots of instances of fascists mixing with various subcultures 1:51:07.320 --> 1:51:10.439 into these like similar like to two categories of people 1:51:10.479 --> 1:51:12.960 starting off with politics and then getting into the culture, 1:51:12.960 --> 1:51:14.439 and the people starting off with the culture then getting 1:51:14.439 --> 1:51:17.280 into politics. I think it's actually kind it's useful for 1:51:17.360 --> 1:51:19.639 understanding a whole bunch of how there's like differences between 1:51:19.640 --> 1:51:24.400 different types of fascist people in various subcultures. So these 1:51:24.760 --> 1:51:26.439 two types I'm gonna I'm gonna be using to help 1:51:26.520 --> 1:51:30.040 to help talk about these different kind of strains of 1:51:30.439 --> 1:51:34.920 of the fascist femboy. For for now, we're gonna focus 1:51:35.040 --> 1:51:38.080 on the first one, the fem fast. So let's let's 1:51:38.200 --> 1:51:42.639 let's wind let's wind the clocks back. Let's say a decade. Broadly, 1:51:42.760 --> 1:51:46.599 gay people can't get married, and to most kids, trans 1:51:46.720 --> 1:51:49.720 people are ostensibly a myth um. So what kind of 1:51:49.840 --> 1:51:51.960 person is going to become a femboy in this in 1:51:52.040 --> 1:51:55.559 this type of in this type of environment. Simplest answer 1:51:55.760 --> 1:51:58.599 is like a certain sect of social outcasts and anime nerds, 1:51:59.000 --> 1:52:01.840 as well as some people who maybe don't consciously know 1:52:02.200 --> 1:52:05.240 or accept that they're queer yet. Really the only way 1:52:05.280 --> 1:52:07.800 to get initially exposed to the fembo aesthetic back then 1:52:08.280 --> 1:52:12.799 was via anime, manga, anti porn, and you know, select 1:52:13.120 --> 1:52:17.599 video games, specifically multiplayer games, and random and internet browsing. 1:52:17.720 --> 1:52:19.000 Right this, this is, this is how you're gonna get 1:52:19.080 --> 1:52:21.960 exposed to this type of aesthetic. In fact, one of 1:52:22.040 --> 1:52:24.840 the probably the old example of a Nazi catboy is 1:52:24.880 --> 1:52:27.400 from an anime called hell Singh where they had they 1:52:27.479 --> 1:52:31.600 had this Nazi catboy character who is the who was 1:52:31.680 --> 1:52:34.160 the source of a lot of Nazi catboy memes on 1:52:34.240 --> 1:52:37.880 fortune Like, it's a very very popular meme figure um, 1:52:38.160 --> 1:52:39.479 And this is I think a lot of where that 1:52:39.680 --> 1:52:42.400 aesthetic tied to fascism actually really starts from. But of 1:52:42.439 --> 1:52:45.559 course there's a lot of fascist fans of anime in general, 1:52:45.960 --> 1:52:49.120 so that the type of aesthetics that the type of 1:52:49.160 --> 1:52:52.880 aesthetics of femininity that anime kind of presents get used 1:52:52.920 --> 1:52:55.160 by fascism a lot. Even among like they're more like 1:52:55.200 --> 1:52:57.479 a cottage core styles, it's still a that very like 1:52:57.600 --> 1:53:02.599 patriarchal um type of inity that is popular among Japanese animation. 1:53:03.200 --> 1:53:05.760 So now, the reasons that someone might be drawn to 1:53:05.840 --> 1:53:09.439 this specific community can vary from person to person. Maybe 1:53:09.479 --> 1:53:11.439 they just don't feel as connected to like the hyper 1:53:11.560 --> 1:53:15.560 macho masculine style that American culture promotes. Maybe it's a 1:53:15.600 --> 1:53:18.400 way to get attention and validation, or maybe you just 1:53:18.520 --> 1:53:21.240 like wearing skirts or find it kind of hot. There's, 1:53:21.560 --> 1:53:23.559 but there's, and there's there's always the possibility that someone 1:53:23.680 --> 1:53:25.360 is transfer gain they just don't fully know it yet. 1:53:25.640 --> 1:53:28.160 This is the case with a lot of these people actually, Um, 1:53:28.840 --> 1:53:30.760 but some of some of you may be surprised to 1:53:30.800 --> 1:53:34.680 hear that before our modern TikTok femboy craze, most fem 1:53:34.760 --> 1:53:38.400 boys did self identify as straight ancests. Uh. There is 1:53:38.439 --> 1:53:41.000 a lot of reasons for this, including like increased omophobia 1:53:41.080 --> 1:53:44.200 and transphobia back then, plus like non binary was hardly 1:53:44.200 --> 1:53:47.640 even the thing like culturally at that at that point. UM. 1:53:47.840 --> 1:53:49.720 One of the people I interviewed for this project talked 1:53:49.720 --> 1:53:52.600 about how some of the cis straight fem boys he 1:53:52.680 --> 1:53:56.880 knew back then now do identify as trans or queer. Um, 1:53:57.000 --> 1:53:59.120 but back then that wasn't really the case. Um. The 1:53:59.160 --> 1:54:01.920 other person I interviewed before this called themselves asis gender 1:54:01.960 --> 1:54:04.479 femboy at the time of the interview, but has now 1:54:04.600 --> 1:54:06.720 since come out as trans. So, like it says, it 1:54:06.840 --> 1:54:09.439 is definitely a recurring pattern, but it's not a thing 1:54:09.479 --> 1:54:11.479 for everybody, Like there is definitely like a lot, like 1:54:11.560 --> 1:54:13.960 a lot of these people do call themselves straight even 1:54:14.000 --> 1:54:16.840 still now, UM, and that is something that a lot 1:54:16.880 --> 1:54:19.000 of kind of people don't have a don't have the 1:54:19.040 --> 1:54:22.160 easiest time kind of comprehending that's gonna what I'm gonna 1:54:22.320 --> 1:54:26.280 kind of try to get into. So let's let's let's 1:54:26.320 --> 1:54:29.840 say you're a kid, young teen and like eleven, you're 1:54:29.880 --> 1:54:33.240 getting into anime and video games. What kind of websites 1:54:33.240 --> 1:54:35.440 are you gonna gravitate to? Right, You're gonna gravitate to 1:54:35.600 --> 1:54:39.240 read It, You're gonna gravitate to four Chan, especially in right. 1:54:39.280 --> 1:54:41.160 These are the these are kind of the cultural mecchas 1:54:41.320 --> 1:54:44.640 of of those types of type type types of subcultures. 1:54:44.800 --> 1:54:48.640 So what is prelevant on these websites? Well, on four Chan, 1:54:48.840 --> 1:54:52.400 we have a slash B which is their random channel UM, 1:54:52.480 --> 1:54:55.080 which also has a not safe work designation, and it's 1:54:55.320 --> 1:54:58.720 was often flooded with femboy picks um, and since there 1:54:58.760 --> 1:55:01.600 are so few female users of that site, you see 1:55:01.600 --> 1:55:04.800 a lot of hentai and occasionally boys dressing up like 1:55:04.960 --> 1:55:08.000 not safe for work female anime characters, just because there's 1:55:08.640 --> 1:55:12.120 people still like femininity, but there's so few actual girls 1:55:12.200 --> 1:55:14.440 using those sites. At the femininity that you see is 1:55:14.480 --> 1:55:18.080 either through anime or it's through kind of cross dressing um. 1:55:18.160 --> 1:55:20.480 And then there's also the slash d page which is 1:55:20.520 --> 1:55:23.160 just completely dedicated to henta I. So you get a 1:55:23.240 --> 1:55:25.240 lot of a lot of a lot of that type 1:55:25.280 --> 1:55:28.240 of like anime style of femininity through kind of that 1:55:28.400 --> 1:55:32.600 that type of appropriation and and fetishization on the slash 1:55:32.640 --> 1:55:35.920 d page. So there's there's a decent chance that anime 1:55:36.080 --> 1:55:39.040 and gaming nerds that browse their interests online will get 1:55:39.080 --> 1:55:42.560 exposed to fen boy staff at some point. Right nowadays, 1:55:42.680 --> 1:55:45.080 it's discord, used to be fortune and used to be 1:55:45.120 --> 1:55:49.240 read it. So it becomes this type of figure right 1:55:49.240 --> 1:55:51.920 infinity loop of people who are exposed to something and 1:55:52.040 --> 1:55:54.600 then start propagating it and get exposed to new people 1:55:54.640 --> 1:55:57.640 to it, And it's just like continuous cycle. Because if 1:55:57.720 --> 1:55:59.640 if you're a kid who discovers they kind of like 1:55:59.840 --> 1:56:02.840 the super niche almost taboo thing. Where are you going 1:56:02.920 --> 1:56:05.200 to go to find other like minded people? You're gonna 1:56:05.200 --> 1:56:07.720 go back to online multiplayer gaming, Reddit and four chane. 1:56:07.760 --> 1:56:09.600 It's it's it's it's all. It's all the same circles. 1:56:10.040 --> 1:56:12.160 So if if even if you don't get exposed to 1:56:12.200 --> 1:56:14.240 it in places like four chun, you're probably gonna end 1:56:14.320 --> 1:56:19.640 up there or somewhere similar regardless, and the other other 1:56:19.760 --> 1:56:21.840 and and the other thing that's important to talk about, 1:56:22.360 --> 1:56:24.640 which is going to talk about like how how the 1:56:24.720 --> 1:56:27.800 femboys start getting into politics is like who else is 1:56:27.920 --> 1:56:31.560 very prevalent and actively recruiting on these types of sites 1:56:31.680 --> 1:56:34.480 with on like on multiplayer gaming, on Reddit and four chan. 1:56:35.240 --> 1:56:39.080 It's it's nazis right that the people who are who 1:56:39.120 --> 1:56:42.840 are into very far right politics trying to mask trying 1:56:42.840 --> 1:56:45.040 to mask some of their beliefs initially in like humor 1:56:45.120 --> 1:56:47.280 and memes. You know, a lot of large, large part 1:56:47.320 --> 1:56:50.000 of an Internet radicalization is done through is done through memes, 1:56:50.080 --> 1:56:53.920 especially especially back in there's like so so many like memes. 1:56:54.280 --> 1:56:57.840 Memes as a social and recruitment tool, we're very very common, 1:56:58.440 --> 1:57:00.120 especially on like you know, if you're on like an 1:57:00.160 --> 1:57:02.680 image board. That that's the whole point is that you're 1:57:03.000 --> 1:57:06.840 sharing images. Um. So a big part of this overrepresentation 1:57:07.000 --> 1:57:10.520 of racists in the femboy community was simply the online 1:57:10.560 --> 1:57:15.240 proximity between these groups of people, between the femboys and 1:57:15.280 --> 1:57:17.200 then the fascists on four Chan or they read it 1:57:17.320 --> 1:57:19.920 in certain online games. Will it be like Second Life, 1:57:20.320 --> 1:57:23.080 whether it be like mms, you know, all these types 1:57:23.120 --> 1:57:25.120 of places and in any place that you can design 1:57:25.160 --> 1:57:27.240 your own character as well, You've got got a lot 1:57:27.280 --> 1:57:31.000 of this type of like anime femboy type thing, because 1:57:31.080 --> 1:57:32.600 a lot of a lot of these games that are 1:57:32.640 --> 1:57:36.640 main in Japan can like give like more feminine options 1:57:36.760 --> 1:57:39.800 for like male characters, or just have like cowboy like 1:57:40.000 --> 1:57:44.680 years and stuff available as a cosmetic option. So a 1:57:44.800 --> 1:57:47.360 lot a lot of this fetish fetishization that we see 1:57:47.400 --> 1:57:49.280 on four Chan and on the and in the early 1:57:49.320 --> 1:57:52.839 two thousands and twentieens is now is now applied to Discord. 1:57:52.920 --> 1:57:55.720 Like this, you did kind of carry over four trans 1:57:55.760 --> 1:57:58.400 obviously not the kind of cultural behemoth that it used 1:57:58.440 --> 1:58:00.320 to be. A lot of this stuff just happens on 1:58:00.400 --> 1:58:02.920 Discord now, um, where you can kind of cultivate online 1:58:02.920 --> 1:58:07.000 communities that are more self contained. So throughout the entirety 1:58:07.040 --> 1:58:10.800 of the twenteen's, fascism was pretty successful infesting among nerd 1:58:10.960 --> 1:58:14.160 spaces right nerds and geeks of many types, whether that 1:58:14.280 --> 1:58:18.160 be gaming or anime or these more like esoteric communities 1:58:18.800 --> 1:58:23.280 esotericism like niche um. But these communities generally they attract 1:58:23.360 --> 1:58:27.280 people who are more disenfranchised right and them boys generally 1:58:27.360 --> 1:58:29.960 feel disenfranchised in one way or another, which just pushes 1:58:30.000 --> 1:58:33.320 them into these, you know, less mainstream subculture. At this point, 1:58:33.520 --> 1:58:36.160 they can be pretty easy targets for fascist recruiters to 1:58:36.200 --> 1:58:38.760 start suggesting that maybe some of their problems in the 1:58:38.840 --> 1:58:43.000 world are actually coming from feminism, immigrants, dealing jobs, affirmative action, 1:58:43.400 --> 1:58:45.960 and slowly leading into talk of like i Q and 1:58:46.080 --> 1:58:49.440 racism and anti semitism. So for those who found these 1:58:49.480 --> 1:58:52.640 ideas initially like abhorrent, uh, it can be explained at 1:58:52.640 --> 1:58:55.360 all this talk and simply edgy jokes in irony attempting 1:58:55.400 --> 1:58:57.160 to trigger the enormies, which is a big part of 1:58:57.600 --> 1:59:01.800 that type of propagation of this type of humor and 1:59:01.920 --> 1:59:05.000 then politics masses humor on these sites and on these 1:59:05.080 --> 1:59:08.720 like gaming chats. This isn't unique to fen Boys or 1:59:08.800 --> 1:59:12.280 cathboys in any way. Right, the more people I interviewed 1:59:12.320 --> 1:59:14.160 and the more kind of old forms that I read, 1:59:14.520 --> 1:59:18.520 I started to actually see stuff that seemed much more familiar. Um. 1:59:18.600 --> 1:59:20.760 And there's a lot of parallels between this far right 1:59:20.840 --> 1:59:24.960 fenboy thing and the far right Fury phenomenon, which I 1:59:25.040 --> 1:59:28.240 know Robert and the Worst Year Ever podcast put together 1:59:28.360 --> 1:59:31.000 two episodes that do a great job kind of talking 1:59:31.040 --> 1:59:34.600 about the far right episode of the Worst Year Ever 1:59:34.680 --> 1:59:39.480 that we ever got to do. Yeah, yeah, it could 1:59:39.480 --> 1:59:42.920 do because I guess just briefly kind of talk about 1:59:43.000 --> 1:59:46.120 the furry the furry kind of thing and how that 1:59:46.760 --> 1:59:49.320 because there's there's a lot of there's Even though these 1:59:49.360 --> 1:59:52.560 cultures are different between fen boys and Furies, the tactics 1:59:52.720 --> 1:59:55.839 that fascists used to get into these communities is exactly 1:59:55.880 --> 1:59:58.120 the same. Um, and it kind of plays on the 1:59:58.200 --> 2:00:02.960 same same tropes. Yeah, it's weird, so you've got I 2:00:03.080 --> 2:00:06.400 think it kind of hearkens to the fact that like 2:00:06.600 --> 2:00:09.800 whenever you have a fandom, no matter kind of what 2:00:09.960 --> 2:00:12.560 the fandom is about or the message of the media 2:00:12.680 --> 2:00:15.720 it's about, you're going to have like Nazis in it. Um. 2:00:15.960 --> 2:00:18.600 And and that's obviously like Star Wars, right, where the 2:00:18.680 --> 2:00:22.480 point of Star Wars is Empire, bad empire. Basically space 2:00:22.680 --> 2:00:25.360 Nazis bad guys. And there's a whole bunch of people 2:00:25.400 --> 2:00:27.960 who have just like made that into their life and 2:00:28.040 --> 2:00:31.000 get tattoos of the imperial sigil or whatever on their 2:00:31.000 --> 2:00:34.480 fucking chest. Or you've got like Disney movies where like 2:00:34.560 --> 2:00:39.240 there's these there's weirdos who will take far right nationalist 2:00:39.320 --> 2:00:43.000 messages at it, like every like everything everything has its Nazis. 2:00:43.080 --> 2:00:45.840 The punk community, right, punk music is supposed to be 2:00:45.920 --> 2:00:49.440 anti authoritarian um and kind of inherently left wing, but 2:00:49.520 --> 2:00:53.919 there's Nazi punks, so like it's all like every community 2:00:54.040 --> 2:00:56.360 has their Nazis, and the Furies are no different. One 2:00:56.400 --> 2:00:58.360 of the things that does make the Furies different is, 2:00:58.400 --> 2:01:03.000 I think because of how and this this is something 2:01:03.080 --> 2:01:04.680 probably you're a little too young, and I guess a 2:01:04.720 --> 2:01:06.960 lot of our audience may have missed out on aspects 2:01:07.000 --> 2:01:09.960 of but like early on in the Internet, and I'm 2:01:10.000 --> 2:01:13.600 talking like the first decade of actual Internet culture, from 2:01:13.680 --> 2:01:17.600 like ninety six to two five or six, which is 2:01:17.640 --> 2:01:20.680 really the first decade of like mass Internet culture. The 2:01:21.280 --> 2:01:24.200 punching bag of the entire Internet was was furries. Like 2:01:24.320 --> 2:01:26.360 they were the people that like it was the safest 2:01:26.440 --> 2:01:29.520 to make fun of, um, jokes about like killing them, 2:01:29.560 --> 2:01:32.320 all sorts of really fucked up shit. Um. And so 2:01:32.480 --> 2:01:36.560 I think they developed kind of this um very strong 2:01:36.720 --> 2:01:40.240 defensive impulse within the community. And so while every subculture 2:01:40.280 --> 2:01:42.760 has their Nazis, the Furies have gone kind of the 2:01:42.840 --> 2:01:48.320 furthest in documenting and um working to like ostracize those people. 2:01:48.440 --> 2:01:51.880 And they've done. They're on the level with like punks 2:01:51.920 --> 2:01:54.240 in terms of the degree to which they have Like 2:01:54.440 --> 2:01:56.720 that has become kind of a guided principle for a 2:01:56.800 --> 2:01:59.480 lot of Furies. Um. Yeah, is that kind of what 2:01:59.560 --> 2:02:03.400 you're looking for? Yeah, because a big a big and 2:02:03.840 --> 2:02:06.040 the thing you mentioned about like furries being such the 2:02:06.080 --> 2:02:09.200 punching bag, that's something that's that's something that Nazis even 2:02:09.240 --> 2:02:11.560 definitely kind of grasp onto as a way to do 2:02:11.720 --> 2:02:15.400 grooming and recruitment. Right is if if if, if, if 2:02:15.480 --> 2:02:18.280 fascists can present themselves as friends to these people who 2:02:18.320 --> 2:02:21.520 are always punched down upon, then they can kind of 2:02:21.720 --> 2:02:23.560 put them into their in groups, right, they can they 2:02:23.600 --> 2:02:25.800 can support them, give them, give them a sense of validation. 2:02:25.840 --> 2:02:28.120 And give them a sense of a community, tell them 2:02:28.240 --> 2:02:32.480 like they they they belong. You're you're, you're you're always 2:02:32.520 --> 2:02:34.560 going to be kicked out of like like real life 2:02:34.640 --> 2:02:37.080 social groups. Right, you can only exist here with us. 2:02:37.160 --> 2:02:39.920 We're gonna we understand you. Like right, they can. They 2:02:39.920 --> 2:02:42.760 can kind of foster this thing, even though obviously it's 2:02:42.840 --> 2:02:46.400 dealing with things that are not the most like not 2:02:46.560 --> 2:02:48.840 the most like systems straight thing in terms of like 2:02:48.960 --> 2:02:52.120 regular heterosexuality. Um like at a lot of a lot 2:02:52.160 --> 2:02:53.640 of furries are straight, but like in terms of like 2:02:53.680 --> 2:02:57.080 the way they approach that is is definitely different than 2:02:57.120 --> 2:02:59.880 a lot of regular people. But they so white corom 2:02:59.920 --> 2:03:02.720 of systs and different fascists can like grasp onto this 2:03:03.560 --> 2:03:05.800 gr respond to this kind of disenfranchisement and offering this 2:03:05.880 --> 2:03:09.680 sense of community. Um be you know, be very friendly initially, 2:03:09.760 --> 2:03:12.640 be being very being very kind of open these people 2:03:13.000 --> 2:03:15.000 and start and start you know the term would be 2:03:15.280 --> 2:03:17.680 like red pilling them, right, um to talk about that 2:03:17.680 --> 2:03:19.280 a lot of their social issues are actually you know 2:03:19.360 --> 2:03:22.440 the fault of straws talking about these you know, all 2:03:22.520 --> 2:03:25.120 of these Jewish bankers. You know, it can start, you 2:03:25.160 --> 2:03:28.440 can start crafting the propaganda very carefully if you're friends 2:03:28.480 --> 2:03:31.200 with them first and then only starts slowly introducing them 2:03:31.240 --> 2:03:34.960 into your more extremist kind of view of politics. Yeah, 2:03:35.040 --> 2:03:38.320 it's just no one's really surprised when an anime nerd 2:03:39.000 --> 2:03:42.560 or like a capital G gamer starts spewing far right 2:03:42.600 --> 2:03:46.320 talking points, but when a femboy does, that just seems 2:03:46.440 --> 2:03:49.560 off because like, aren't they also a degenerate right like 2:03:49.960 --> 2:03:51.640 like it's like what there is a bit of a 2:03:51.680 --> 2:03:55.960 cognitive distance there um and like yes and no, Right, 2:03:56.480 --> 2:03:58.840 you may be over estimating some people's commitment to the 2:03:58.920 --> 2:04:02.440 fascist cause here because an occurring pattern I found, we're 2:04:02.480 --> 2:04:05.280 talking to people with history in these communities, especially if 2:04:05.280 --> 2:04:07.680 they're more of like the fem fashion variety, right, starting 2:04:07.760 --> 2:04:10.320 up starting off with them boys headaches, then getting into 2:04:10.600 --> 2:04:13.800 being racist and and and like like pretty racist and 2:04:13.840 --> 2:04:17.240 then getting into fascism. Is that look looking back these 2:04:17.320 --> 2:04:20.520 people and they say, like themselves and others, all of 2:04:20.600 --> 2:04:23.840 their kind of parenting of racist and fascist talking points, 2:04:24.520 --> 2:04:28.400 especially online, was like they claim much more due to 2:04:29.280 --> 2:04:32.160 having to like fit in with these with these already 2:04:32.200 --> 2:04:36.200 pretty reactionary online spaces um and make friends at seemingly 2:04:36.280 --> 2:04:39.120 one of the few places that people with similar interests gather. 2:04:39.800 --> 2:04:41.960 You know, some people deep down don't really care about 2:04:42.000 --> 2:04:44.480 the political beliefs that much, and we're we're still looking 2:04:44.520 --> 2:04:46.880 for a community. And it just so happened that back then, 2:04:46.920 --> 2:04:50.440 in the early the places where these communities of outcast 2:04:50.520 --> 2:04:53.600 found each other were also places that other outcasts used 2:04:53.720 --> 2:04:57.880 racism as a lazy attention seeking shock comedy and like 2:04:58.000 --> 2:05:00.640 the triggering of normies, which was basically like a sport 2:05:00.800 --> 2:05:03.560 on these on on these forums. Now obviously this is 2:05:03.600 --> 2:05:07.080 not excusing any horn behavior and or horrible things, but 2:05:07.680 --> 2:05:11.720 that whole idea, plus the active like grooming and the 2:05:11.760 --> 2:05:15.560 active recruitment from Nazis made the nerdy outcast to fascist 2:05:15.600 --> 2:05:19.240 pipeline that we see today. That's really how it built 2:05:19.320 --> 2:05:21.200 up and became such a powerful tool, you know, in 2:05:21.240 --> 2:05:25.840 around um. But there is there is the other. All 2:05:25.880 --> 2:05:28.160 of this just generally more applies to the people who 2:05:28.200 --> 2:05:30.800 were into fen boys edicts and then got kind of 2:05:31.040 --> 2:05:35.040 railroaded into into nationalism and too fascism. Right, it's because 2:05:35.080 --> 2:05:39.000 they they're fem boys on these platforms. There's also racists 2:05:39.040 --> 2:05:41.560 on these platforms, so these things start to kind of mix, 2:05:42.040 --> 2:05:44.920 But there's still that other type of femboy nazi um, 2:05:45.000 --> 2:05:47.200 the one who started off online with far right views 2:05:47.640 --> 2:05:51.040 and then discovered fem boys and started to feel things 2:05:51.680 --> 2:05:54.440 when we're starting by talking about them next on on 2:05:54.680 --> 2:05:57.120 on part two. But I guess does anyone anyone have 2:05:57.160 --> 2:05:59.680 any any questions at least to close off part one 2:06:00.120 --> 2:06:02.640 about the more kind of fem fast variety of people 2:06:02.680 --> 2:06:07.480 who are generally kind of more regular politically, um, but 2:06:07.560 --> 2:06:10.000 are into into like femboy and cowboy kind of aesthetics 2:06:10.080 --> 2:06:12.200 and then and then get put into into into more 2:06:12.320 --> 2:06:20.040 reactionary ideas. Mm hmmm, uh stay off the internet. Yeah, 2:06:20.080 --> 2:06:22.120 that's not a question, but yes, that is that is 2:06:22.160 --> 2:06:24.680 a that is a good uh, there's a good mission statement. 2:06:25.080 --> 2:06:27.600 But yeah, in terms of like, in terms of like 2:06:27.680 --> 2:06:31.040 the you know, this topic can whenever whenever I bring 2:06:31.120 --> 2:06:32.800 it up. I thought about this a lot when I've 2:06:32.800 --> 2:06:34.840 tried to explain it to people, there's always a bit 2:06:34.880 --> 2:06:40.320 of like that, how that doesn't make any sense? And 2:06:40.720 --> 2:06:42.000 I'll be gett into some of the more kind of 2:06:42.080 --> 2:06:44.680 semantics of it um in in part two, but at 2:06:44.720 --> 2:06:46.840 least at least for like the initial initial kind of 2:06:47.160 --> 2:06:53.080 dive into how the online community aspect is used as 2:06:53.120 --> 2:06:55.880 such a powerful tool for people who are feeling so 2:06:56.040 --> 2:06:59.560 alone that just the the idea of their being an 2:06:59.560 --> 2:07:02.800 online unity, whether it be racist or not, can is 2:07:02.880 --> 2:07:06.440 just super appealing. Because if if everyone thinks that you're 2:07:06.480 --> 2:07:10.040 weird in an outcast, if these other people who are 2:07:10.080 --> 2:07:13.240 also weird and outcasts start kind of trying to make 2:07:13.320 --> 2:07:15.680 friends with you, then it can be a very powerful 2:07:15.760 --> 2:07:18.680 like recruitment tool, um, which is then of course they'll 2:07:18.760 --> 2:07:22.960 they'll they'll be people, they'll be people who eventually try 2:07:23.000 --> 2:07:25.080 to like take them out of the whole femboy stetics 2:07:25.120 --> 2:07:26.840 in a lot of in a lot of ways, um. 2:07:27.360 --> 2:07:29.400 But a lot of fascists also get into the fen 2:07:29.480 --> 2:07:32.040 boy stetic because of the because of the proximity issue, right, 2:07:32.080 --> 2:07:33.720 because these things are so like next to each other. 2:07:34.200 --> 2:07:39.360 Well the thing you're the kind of important broader realization there. 2:07:39.360 --> 2:07:42.040 And this is something that a radicalization scholar named Scott 2:07:42.080 --> 2:07:45.680 Atran has been talking about for ten years now. Probably 2:07:45.800 --> 2:07:49.640 more is that people get radicalized in communities. People like 2:07:49.720 --> 2:07:53.240 when we talk about radicalization, like why Like I guess 2:07:53.320 --> 2:07:55.440 the other half of the explainer that I started this 2:07:55.560 --> 2:07:59.000 with being like, you know, every subculture has their Nazis. 2:07:59.360 --> 2:08:02.520 It's not because like the reason every subculture has their 2:08:02.600 --> 2:08:08.200 Nazis is that subcultures are like people get radicalized as 2:08:08.280 --> 2:08:10.600 part of communities, as part of subcultures. They don't get 2:08:10.680 --> 2:08:13.920 radicalized as individuals, just like people don't aren't just walking 2:08:13.960 --> 2:08:16.320 out in the world and decide to become a Nazi. 2:08:16.400 --> 2:08:20.200 They become a Nazi because a Nazi reaches them in 2:08:20.360 --> 2:08:23.200 something they're already into, right, Like that That's just the 2:08:23.280 --> 2:08:26.040 way it happens. Yeah, there's definitely a large part of 2:08:26.120 --> 2:08:29.360 this is like a group of like group dynamics, especially 2:08:29.440 --> 2:08:32.560 in places like forums where you're you know, trying to 2:08:33.440 --> 2:08:35.640 trying to get like this like a tension battle. Um 2:08:35.640 --> 2:08:37.080 And I guess the other other big part of about 2:08:37.080 --> 2:08:39.640 the femboy kind of idea, especially on image boards, is 2:08:39.720 --> 2:08:43.000 like it is such an attention seeking, in validation seeking 2:08:43.320 --> 2:08:45.760 place right you you want to you want to post 2:08:45.840 --> 2:08:48.800 things that gets you a lot of comments, likes, upboats, whatever. 2:08:48.880 --> 2:08:51.680 The kind of the metric is. Um, So people will 2:08:51.760 --> 2:08:55.280 do things that get them visibility. Even if even if 2:08:55.280 --> 2:08:57.879 half the people interacting with you are calling you a degenerate, 2:08:58.200 --> 2:09:00.400 at least there's people still looking at you at least 2:09:00.440 --> 2:09:02.840 you feel seen, um, and then the other half people 2:09:02.840 --> 2:09:04.600 will be like, no, it's actually fine. You know. So 2:09:05.480 --> 2:09:08.040 as long as there's that visibility, like that sense of community, 2:09:08.120 --> 2:09:11.600 than a lot of the more cognitive cognitive dissonance aspects 2:09:11.680 --> 2:09:14.800 can kind of be passed by. But we'll we'll we'll 2:09:14.800 --> 2:09:20.040 get into more of that for for for for part two. Um. Anyway, Uh, 2:09:20.760 --> 2:09:22.880 you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at to 2:09:22.920 --> 2:09:25.200 Happen Here podon Coole Zone Media, you can find me 2:09:26.040 --> 2:09:30.480 uh talking about catboys occasionally on Twitter at Hungry bow 2:09:30.520 --> 2:09:36.280 Tie and about it. Well it's you know, I've I've 2:09:36.320 --> 2:09:38.440 been I've been trying to edit down this episode because 2:09:38.480 --> 2:09:39.800 the script was way too long. I be trying to 2:09:40.200 --> 2:09:45.440 make it more siscinct the past few days. So my, my, my, my, my, 2:09:46.360 --> 2:09:48.720 I have. I am pretty excited to be to to 2:09:48.880 --> 2:09:52.760 to close this Google doc at the end of the day. Well, 2:09:53.120 --> 2:09:57.480 congratulations on all your hard work, Garrison and listeners at home. 2:09:58.000 --> 2:10:02.040 Go dress like a catboy. Yeah, and and don't be 2:10:02.120 --> 2:10:23.720 a Nazi. Yeah, I mean that's also important. Recording in progress. 2:10:24.120 --> 2:10:27.080 All right, Well that's my opening. Welcome to part two 2:10:27.120 --> 2:10:31.440 of Why They're Nazi Cowboys. Um, what is this podcast, Garrison, 2:10:31.840 --> 2:10:35.920 it could happen here talking about that together? The cowboys 2:10:36.000 --> 2:10:38.640 have Nazis? Which did which did actually happen here? They're 2:10:38.640 --> 2:10:43.000 actually we'll talk about how they actually happened. Um. But 2:10:43.200 --> 2:10:46.000 before we before we get into the topic of fascists 2:10:46.040 --> 2:10:49.160 becoming fem boys via exposure, because I do, We're gonna 2:10:49.160 --> 2:10:51.800 start off by talking about kind of well generally the 2:10:51.840 --> 2:10:54.040 book book the episodes can be talking about people who 2:10:54.080 --> 2:10:56.280 are fascists who then get in defend boys toepics. Right, 2:10:56.600 --> 2:10:59.040 last episode we talked about the fem fast, people who 2:10:59.080 --> 2:11:01.200 are fem boys who they get fascism. Now we're talking 2:11:01.200 --> 2:11:04.160 about the fascists who now getting defend boys. Um. But 2:11:05.640 --> 2:11:07.920 before we get real into that, I think it's gonna 2:11:07.960 --> 2:11:09.880 I think would be helpful to get a bit more 2:11:09.960 --> 2:11:14.600 into what these online communities were like in the um Now, 2:11:14.720 --> 2:11:16.800 all the infos like a combination of what I've gleaned 2:11:16.840 --> 2:11:19.920 from interviews, UH, direct messages, my own pulling up of 2:11:20.000 --> 2:11:23.000 old like four China Reddit threads. It may not necessarily 2:11:23.040 --> 2:11:25.440 reflect you on experiences perfectly. What is the most in 2:11:25.480 --> 2:11:27.880 depth I can do on an audio only medium? Um, 2:11:28.120 --> 2:11:30.280 some won't be thrilled about this, but we do need 2:11:30.320 --> 2:11:33.520 to discuss traps um at their place within the online 2:11:33.520 --> 2:11:36.880 community at the time. UM which means we must divine, 2:11:37.160 --> 2:11:39.280 which means before we first must to find another term 2:11:39.440 --> 2:11:44.240 for the blissfully unaware. So really heartbreaking because when I 2:11:44.360 --> 2:11:47.960 was a child, Garrison trap was was just a house 2:11:48.160 --> 2:11:51.280 where you hit your drugs. It is it is not 2:11:51.360 --> 2:11:54.160 a trap house. This is a different, different, different type 2:11:54.200 --> 2:11:56.800 of track. This is, this is this is before trap 2:11:56.880 --> 2:12:00.680 house turned into a PODCASTA and a bunch of people 2:12:00.720 --> 2:12:04.920 didn't know what a trap house was. Heartbreaking the term, 2:12:05.600 --> 2:12:08.040 but the term traps were using it here. UM, at 2:12:08.120 --> 2:12:10.720 least on the Internet, originates in the in the early 2:12:10.760 --> 2:12:15.360 two thousand's on image boards UM specifically for Juan UM, 2:12:15.920 --> 2:12:19.120 and it got to be as as it got more 2:12:19.160 --> 2:12:22.040 popular as a term got more kind of widely recognized 2:12:22.200 --> 2:12:26.400 as a slur, specifically usually a slur against trans women 2:12:27.040 --> 2:12:30.600 UM or a slur for like any like feminine presenting 2:12:31.160 --> 2:12:34.360 person who was a signed mail at birth. So it's 2:12:34.560 --> 2:12:37.800 it's it's use and origins at least when the Internet 2:12:37.920 --> 2:12:42.720 comes from people posting pictures usually from anime very like 2:12:42.840 --> 2:12:46.920 feminine looking boys UM alongside the meme of Admiral Akbar 2:12:47.080 --> 2:12:49.200 saying it's a trap. Right, So this this is this 2:12:49.320 --> 2:12:51.320 is how this idea of the trap kind of started, 2:12:51.320 --> 2:12:53.440 at least online. I talked with some like other trans 2:12:53.520 --> 2:12:57.120 friends of mine. They say that it definitely they in 2:12:57.160 --> 2:13:00.120 their opinion, they remember it being a term even for 2:13:00.720 --> 2:13:03.160 the two thousands on the internet, of being kind of 2:13:03.240 --> 2:13:06.040 more of a slur towards trans women. Um. I can't 2:13:06.080 --> 2:13:08.680 find any kind of stuff online about that specific angle, 2:13:08.800 --> 2:13:11.800 but the term, the term may be older than that offline, 2:13:12.040 --> 2:13:14.560 but at least the online use of it really comes 2:13:14.600 --> 2:13:17.760 from the Admiral Actbar meme. Um. So, of course, the 2:13:17.840 --> 2:13:20.160 it's a trap idea kind of implies some form of 2:13:20.240 --> 2:13:23.000 deceptions at play, right with these drawings that are pure 2:13:23.040 --> 2:13:27.000 feminine but may actually be depicting adolescent males or you 2:13:27.040 --> 2:13:31.000 know worse trans sexuals right woo very scary. Um So 2:13:31.400 --> 2:13:34.320 this this soon got transferred over from being applied to 2:13:34.360 --> 2:13:37.720 anime drawings to being applied to pictures and then in 2:13:37.840 --> 2:13:41.720 person encounters of real fem boys or trans people. Um. 2:13:41.960 --> 2:13:44.680 So you know, it's as in like if you found 2:13:44.720 --> 2:13:48.120 someone that looks female enough, as the meme would go, Um, 2:13:48.280 --> 2:13:50.880 if to be attractive and later found out that they 2:13:50.920 --> 2:13:53.200 were actually a boy or they were a trans woman. 2:13:53.920 --> 2:13:56.360 The idea was that, like, you were deceived, Thus you 2:13:56.480 --> 2:13:58.440 must be on the lookout for any kind of potential 2:13:58.480 --> 2:14:01.640 attractiveness of fem boys trans women, or else you two 2:14:01.880 --> 2:14:06.040 might be trapped. Um. So this again, this is it's 2:14:06.120 --> 2:14:09.840 it's it's often it's a very transphobic and it's like 2:14:10.400 --> 2:14:13.240 it's comparing fem boys to trans women because these are 2:14:13.280 --> 2:14:17.240 not the same thing. Um. Obviously, there's is very very 2:14:17.320 --> 2:14:21.919 hashtag problematic for a lot of reasons. Um. But there's 2:14:21.960 --> 2:14:25.640 also the the the meme the of our traps gay, 2:14:25.800 --> 2:14:28.240 which is referring to a kind of like satirical debate 2:14:28.760 --> 2:14:32.320 around whether or not it's gay defined a femboy, a 2:14:32.400 --> 2:14:36.480 male cross stresser, or even a trans woman attractive. Um. 2:14:36.560 --> 2:14:39.160 Now the meme does riff on the whole like fellas 2:14:39.280 --> 2:14:42.040 is it gay thing? Um? And gee whiz am I 2:14:42.160 --> 2:14:47.760 glad the fellas meme has surpassed the R traps gay meme. Uh. Obviously. Obviously, 2:14:48.120 --> 2:14:50.680 not only is the R traps gay thing pretty homophobic 2:14:50.760 --> 2:14:53.400 and transphobic, Um, it's also tied to a lot of 2:14:53.440 --> 2:14:56.760 like real world violence against trans women by men, all 2:14:56.840 --> 2:15:00.480 of the trans panic defense, right, the whole the whole 2:15:00.560 --> 2:15:02.960 trap idea kind of does tie you into the trans 2:15:03.040 --> 2:15:05.960 panic defense. A lot of you know, men who claim 2:15:06.000 --> 2:15:09.400 they simply had to attack or killed trans women once 2:15:09.520 --> 2:15:12.120 they found out that that she had a dick, right, 2:15:12.280 --> 2:15:14.440 or maybe used to have a dick, not even anymore, right, 2:15:14.480 --> 2:15:17.440 it doesn't even matter more commonly or commonly called the 2:15:17.480 --> 2:15:20.400 trans panic defense. Yeah, yeah, so, and like the mere 2:15:20.440 --> 2:15:22.240 thought of that was so scary that they just they 2:15:22.360 --> 2:15:25.200 use the trans panic defense in court when violence against 2:15:25.200 --> 2:15:28.200 trans women is enacted. Now, obviously this is also much 2:15:28.280 --> 2:15:31.600 more attacks against trans women in this vein are much 2:15:31.680 --> 2:15:35.920 more common on trans women of color than than than 2:15:35.960 --> 2:15:38.600 white trans woman. That's another that's another important thing to mention. 2:15:39.560 --> 2:15:43.640 But circling back to fortune Nazis and fem boys in 2:15:43.720 --> 2:15:47.400 the in the two thousands and tens, trap was almost 2:15:47.600 --> 2:15:50.680 like a badge of honor and self descriptor for many 2:15:50.760 --> 2:15:53.960 fem boys as well. Like being able to trap or 2:15:54.000 --> 2:15:56.280 like you know, pass for a woman while having a 2:15:56.400 --> 2:15:59.000 dick was like the highest level of femboy nous. It 2:15:59.120 --> 2:16:01.200 was like it was like hop shelf fem boy was 2:16:01.280 --> 2:16:05.040 being because was being able to to achieve this feat UM. 2:16:05.400 --> 2:16:07.240 Usually this was you know, for the purposes of taking 2:16:07.280 --> 2:16:09.800 like loot pictures of yourself and then having them be 2:16:09.960 --> 2:16:13.760 you know, well liked or spread across online forums. UM. 2:16:14.000 --> 2:16:16.720 In my interviews with people from these online spaces longer 2:16:16.800 --> 2:16:20.440 than I've been around, UM, it was it was like 2:16:20.560 --> 2:16:23.280 described to me by them that being like fem boys 2:16:23.320 --> 2:16:26.120 are just trying to look feminine, whereas traps are really 2:16:26.200 --> 2:16:28.520 trying to look like girls. And that is kind of 2:16:28.600 --> 2:16:32.320 like the distinction in these in these places at the time, UM. Now, 2:16:32.640 --> 2:16:35.959 you know, all while calling yourself trans was heavily discouraged 2:16:36.000 --> 2:16:38.680 and ridiculed. UM in two thousand and eleven, you know, 2:16:38.920 --> 2:16:41.000 four chun it was it was, it was. It was 2:16:41.040 --> 2:16:43.200 hard to be it was hard to even be openly gay, like, 2:16:43.320 --> 2:16:47.040 let alone transgender. So but being self described as the 2:16:47.040 --> 2:16:49.520 trap was much more accepted. So a lot of people 2:16:49.560 --> 2:16:52.120 would actually self describe as this or want to be 2:16:52.200 --> 2:16:54.120 self described as this, like want to be at the 2:16:54.120 --> 2:16:56.840 point where they feel like they could say this, UM. 2:16:57.480 --> 2:17:00.040 And it's it's interesting. It's like a lot of a 2:17:00.080 --> 2:17:05.040 lot of the attraction to traps UM was in a 2:17:05.120 --> 2:17:08.160 lot of ways genuine, but also all wrapped in this 2:17:08.320 --> 2:17:12.640 like joking, ironic kind of exterior being like, oh, it's 2:17:12.680 --> 2:17:14.200 all like it, it's all like a bit that we're 2:17:14.440 --> 2:17:16.320 that we're all in on the joke for right. That 2:17:16.440 --> 2:17:19.920 that's kind of how this was explained away. Another quote 2:17:19.920 --> 2:17:23.160 from the interviews is like quote, if you actually admitted 2:17:23.240 --> 2:17:26.920 to being actually actually romantically attracted to traps or femboys, 2:17:27.080 --> 2:17:29.600 you would be heavily ostracized. People would say things like, 2:17:29.640 --> 2:17:31.360 oh my god, you actually did it, like you actually 2:17:31.400 --> 2:17:33.960 did the thing, um because it is it is. It 2:17:34.120 --> 2:17:36.840 was like wrapped in this sense of of of of 2:17:36.959 --> 2:17:40.320 like irony and and and any hint of sincere attraction 2:17:40.680 --> 2:17:43.800 was masked in this like ironic joke like facade. So 2:17:44.120 --> 2:17:47.600 at this point four chan is basically an amateur porn 2:17:47.680 --> 2:17:52.120 filled suesspool of anime h gaming, edgy jokes, and increasingly 2:17:52.200 --> 2:17:56.040 bad politics, with pole really taking the shape of like 2:17:56.080 --> 2:17:59.600 the Nazi machine that it is today. So close proximity 2:17:59.760 --> 2:18:02.520 and probability is all it's necessary to make these racist 2:18:02.560 --> 2:18:06.080 and fen boys have this you know, uncomfortable awakening once 2:18:06.160 --> 2:18:08.360 they start seeing a whole bunch of pictures with people's 2:18:08.400 --> 2:18:12.640 dicks wearing like made outfits. Um So, with with all 2:18:12.720 --> 2:18:16.560 these like edgy, ironic and not so ironic jokes, the 2:18:16.959 --> 2:18:21.160 racists populating these chans forums, online spaces, it's only a 2:18:21.200 --> 2:18:23.840 matter of time before they get exposed to boys posing 2:18:23.879 --> 2:18:27.640 in Japanese tennis skirts and pink wigs, which helps create 2:18:27.720 --> 2:18:30.880 this infinity loop idea of like fen boys to get 2:18:30.879 --> 2:18:34.200 into racism and then fascism, and then and fascists who 2:18:34.240 --> 2:18:37.040 discover they like dick girls and when boys were addresses, 2:18:37.400 --> 2:18:39.240 and then it's it's because they're because these things are 2:18:39.240 --> 2:18:41.800 happening right next to each other. It's this whole phenomenon 2:18:41.920 --> 2:18:46.480 of self contradiction that just keeps itself going. So we 2:18:46.600 --> 2:18:49.560 were now we were now done this section, thankfully, um 2:18:49.800 --> 2:18:51.480 I did not want to get into having to talk 2:18:51.520 --> 2:18:53.720 about all that stuff because I know it's not people 2:18:53.760 --> 2:18:56.120 don't like talking about it. It's pretty, it's pretty. It 2:18:56.520 --> 2:19:00.600 plays on a whole bunch of extremely like transphobic like tropes, 2:19:01.360 --> 2:19:03.360 but it is it is a big part of this, 2:19:03.680 --> 2:19:07.600 this this kind of phenomenon. Um So, now we're going 2:19:07.680 --> 2:19:10.920 to the next part, which is in cells, gamer gait 2:19:11.000 --> 2:19:15.840 and anti feminism. So I I'm I'm not going to 2:19:16.000 --> 2:19:20.640 focus a lot on the idea of repressed queerness here, right, 2:19:20.760 --> 2:19:23.840 the idea of like raging homophobes being secretly gay, because 2:19:23.879 --> 2:19:25.800 I think that idea gets a little too much attention 2:19:26.040 --> 2:19:28.160 when we talked about this sort of thing. Now, don't 2:19:28.200 --> 2:19:31.320 get me wrong, this absolutely does happen, but I generally 2:19:31.400 --> 2:19:34.920 view sexuality, gender identity, and gender expression as much more 2:19:35.040 --> 2:19:38.440 fluid attributes, even among people who consider themselves as systems straight. 2:19:38.680 --> 2:19:41.480 So I I don't like defaulting to this like explainer 2:19:41.520 --> 2:19:44.280 of being like, oh, they're homophobic, that means they're secretly gay, 2:19:44.320 --> 2:19:46.879 and like that's I think that's kind of lazy and stupid. 2:19:47.440 --> 2:19:49.640 But when when, when we're talking about the curious case 2:19:49.680 --> 2:19:53.960 of Nazi cowboys, most individuals involved not only identify as 2:19:53.959 --> 2:19:56.560 straight and sis gender, but are also very homophobic and 2:19:56.680 --> 2:20:00.400 very transphobic despite their overly like queer behavior here because 2:20:00.400 --> 2:20:02.039 it is it is like queer and like the original 2:20:02.280 --> 2:20:04.960 sense of the word um, And I think I think 2:20:04.959 --> 2:20:07.840 there's much more interesting ways to analyze this beyond the 2:20:08.000 --> 2:20:11.680 repressed gay trope we've already we've already already are talked 2:20:11.680 --> 2:20:15.920 about some femboys and femboy appreciators adopting reactionary and conservative 2:20:16.000 --> 2:20:18.800 social beliefs to fit into the larger culture around four 2:20:18.879 --> 2:20:21.480 Chune and parts of the online gaming community to find 2:20:21.520 --> 2:20:24.400 this sense of belonging and you know, shared shared community 2:20:24.400 --> 2:20:27.160 among other people. But in order for the fascist femboy 2:20:27.240 --> 2:20:29.240 to be such a lasting meme and trope in and 2:20:29.320 --> 2:20:31.400 of itself, in my mind, there needs to be a 2:20:31.440 --> 2:20:35.680 bit of a stronger justification for the inherent contradictions beyond 2:20:35.840 --> 2:20:39.160 just finding community itself. And we will we'll talk about 2:20:39.200 --> 2:20:42.120 that when we come back from from from our break. 2:20:43.560 --> 2:20:47.160 Here's here's some ads that that are hopefully about how 2:20:47.280 --> 2:20:49.879 you two can go on Amazon dot com and buy 2:20:49.879 --> 2:20:55.040 a made outfit and we're back. Okay, we're going to 2:20:55.120 --> 2:20:59.199 talk about in cells. What of one of my yeah, 2:21:00.160 --> 2:21:06.760 uh um in cells or like can voluntarily celibrate people whatever. 2:21:07.320 --> 2:21:08.920 I assume people who are listening to this know what 2:21:09.040 --> 2:21:12.280 in cells are. Um. But the in cel movement gained 2:21:12.440 --> 2:21:15.560 traction in the mid twenty teens alongside gamer Gate and 2:21:15.640 --> 2:21:18.880 the growing kind of anti feminist and alongside of mass 2:21:18.879 --> 2:21:25.560 shooting there was there was there was also the Toronto 2:21:25.640 --> 2:21:28.600 attack when the in cell round over people in that 2:21:29.080 --> 2:21:32.080 van there's been multiple mass acts of islands tied to 2:21:32.240 --> 2:21:35.200 the in cell idea, and how they A lot of 2:21:35.280 --> 2:21:39.280 us just call them horny Isis I've never heard anyone 2:21:39.400 --> 2:21:42.879 call them that before. Well they are, I mean immediately. 2:21:42.959 --> 2:21:45.280 Also this is This is also the same period where 2:21:45.320 --> 2:21:48.240 just isis is on Twitter so cold they share where 2:21:51.800 --> 2:21:54.040 I really want Isis to chime in on the Will 2:21:54.080 --> 2:21:59.240 Smith to face No you don't. I would love that here. No, 2:22:00.280 --> 2:22:05.200 I'm waiting for the Taliban's take, no no, no no, 2:22:06.080 --> 2:22:11.199 no violence against his violence, Comedians is violenc comedians justified. 2:22:11.480 --> 2:22:14.879 The Taliban weighs in at six Taliban are you could 2:22:14.920 --> 2:22:17.520 get the Taliban arguing with isis K. By god, it 2:22:17.600 --> 2:22:22.280 could be done. What a what a what a better world? That? 2:22:24.600 --> 2:22:28.800 Especially if Trump was still on Twitter and conmdiate. Oh god, 2:22:28.959 --> 2:22:32.280 that would have been so funny. If Trump had been 2:22:32.320 --> 2:22:35.280 around on Twitter too. It's the only time I've missed him, 2:22:35.480 --> 2:22:37.640 just like, oh yeah, yeah, that would have been that, 2:22:37.760 --> 2:22:42.760 That would have been the good ship anyway. Um yeah, 2:22:42.800 --> 2:22:46.240 in cells there it's a pretty obstensibly violent movement because 2:22:46.280 --> 2:22:50.880 it's it's all about making young men disenfranchised about their future, right, 2:22:50.920 --> 2:22:55.520 It's this fatalistic idea that they were promised things and 2:22:55.680 --> 2:22:58.119 now those promises are no longer being kept by society, 2:22:58.520 --> 2:23:00.560 so you are kind of doomed to live a pathetic 2:23:00.600 --> 2:23:03.120 life forever. Right, So it is a very fatalist idea 2:23:03.400 --> 2:23:07.920 that really kind of encourages acts of violence. Um But 2:23:08.320 --> 2:23:10.879 the in the moment was gaining traction around this whole time, 2:23:11.040 --> 2:23:13.480 right right beside gammer Gate and the growing antifeminist movement. 2:23:13.800 --> 2:23:15.920 And I think the key to putting this puzzle together 2:23:16.520 --> 2:23:20.240 is in the hatred and resentment of women itself, um 2:23:20.400 --> 2:23:22.080 as like a thing. I think think this is actually 2:23:22.080 --> 2:23:24.840 a key part of why the femboy and femboy fascist 2:23:24.920 --> 2:23:28.160 thing kind of caught on. Most of the loose organizing 2:23:28.240 --> 2:23:30.879 of these movements were happening on four Chan and Reddit 2:23:31.320 --> 2:23:34.959 right eventually eventually discord as well. These were the same 2:23:35.000 --> 2:23:38.400 places that were home to the anime posting femboy amateur 2:23:38.480 --> 2:23:41.800 porn community, and one of the most common viewpoints at 2:23:41.840 --> 2:23:45.600 the time was that feminism is ruining women, right, that's 2:23:45.640 --> 2:23:48.720 it's it's disrupting the natural patriarchal order that many boys 2:23:48.760 --> 2:23:52.080 were taught existed, you know, with promises of girlfriends and 2:23:52.160 --> 2:23:54.720 wives that are like, rightfully, there's as some kind of 2:23:54.800 --> 2:23:57.720 like obligation. Yeah, I mean this is when we talked 2:23:57.720 --> 2:24:00.320 about like promise people being men being promised. Men were 2:24:00.360 --> 2:24:03.360 generally talking about like the way in which fiction kind 2:24:03.400 --> 2:24:08.480 of complicitly promises women as as a reward for heroics, 2:24:08.560 --> 2:24:12.520 org just being good. It's like it's it's just specifically 2:24:12.600 --> 2:24:15.440 like a cultural idea. That is probably the best example 2:24:15.480 --> 2:24:18.360 of this Star Wars, Luke Skywalker becomes a hero and 2:24:18.480 --> 2:24:21.920 gets to gets to kiss his sister, you know, yes, 2:24:22.120 --> 2:24:26.280 which is just the which is the driving driving motivation 2:24:26.360 --> 2:24:29.959 of many many in cells said they took in one 2:24:30.040 --> 2:24:33.800 day because their sister. Thank thank you Robert for that 2:24:34.080 --> 2:24:37.240 for that stinct analysis. I used to I used to 2:24:37.320 --> 2:24:41.920 be a film's reviewer, Garrison. So like if you're taught 2:24:42.080 --> 2:24:44.920 and raised like thinking that something like this exists, right 2:24:45.000 --> 2:24:48.039 like this this this this correct patriarchal order, like it's 2:24:48.040 --> 2:24:49.760 like it's it's it's almost it's almost like this like 2:24:49.920 --> 2:24:53.840 righteous truth. Um and you if you then discovery like 2:24:54.000 --> 2:24:56.440 that's kind of a lie, and that like women are 2:24:56.480 --> 2:24:59.880 actually individuals with value not tied to the ownership by 2:25:00.080 --> 2:25:04.160 man um. Some men have a very very unhealthy, often 2:25:04.320 --> 2:25:09.520 violatile reaction to this realization or confrontation. So some people 2:25:09.640 --> 2:25:13.240 then decide to do mass shootings. Some people, uh, kill people, 2:25:13.480 --> 2:25:15.480 some people just do you know, some people might just 2:25:15.800 --> 2:25:19.680 do you know, like um, intimate partner violence, right, say 2:25:19.720 --> 2:25:21.760 that they do get a partner at some point and 2:25:21.920 --> 2:25:23.640 it's not going the way they want and they just 2:25:23.680 --> 2:25:26.200 become abusive. Right. So there's a whole bunch of ways 2:25:26.240 --> 2:25:30.199 this this type of thing can manifest. Um. So, faced 2:25:30.240 --> 2:25:31.880 with the work of like not being a dick and 2:25:32.000 --> 2:25:35.120 trying to combat this ingrained misogyny and then having to 2:25:35.280 --> 2:25:38.480 like actually put effort into being attractive and desired, a 2:25:38.600 --> 2:25:42.640 lot of men instead opt to either like attack outwards 2:25:43.240 --> 2:25:46.720 or withdrawal inwards, and sometimes the mix of both. So 2:25:46.959 --> 2:25:48.720 with the with the fascist from boy thing, a lot 2:25:48.800 --> 2:25:51.240 of this is like withdrawing in words, right. A lot 2:25:51.280 --> 2:25:53.960 of these people are too introverted and to kind of 2:25:54.040 --> 2:25:56.280 cowardly to actually do like a mass shooting, which is 2:25:56.360 --> 2:25:59.720 like that's that's that's that's probably good. Um. But then 2:26:00.080 --> 2:26:01.960 them and drawing in words, we're gonna it's kind of 2:26:02.000 --> 2:26:04.520 manifest in this in this in this different way. So 2:26:05.840 --> 2:26:09.080 when dealing with this almost like misogynistic nihilism. A lot 2:26:09.120 --> 2:26:11.280 of dudes really lost hope in the prospect of a 2:26:11.320 --> 2:26:13.800 future romance with women. So instead of putting in effort 2:26:13.840 --> 2:26:17.240 to adjust their personality, adjust their behavior, change the partrict, 2:26:17.520 --> 2:26:21.080 change their patriarchal outlook, and improve their physical appearance, many 2:26:21.120 --> 2:26:23.640 guys insaide will retreat to their online communities full of 2:26:23.720 --> 2:26:26.640 other guys facing similar issues. All Right, it's easier to 2:26:26.680 --> 2:26:28.480 live in front of a screen and not have to 2:26:28.520 --> 2:26:32.000 face other humans in person. These these people don't really 2:26:32.040 --> 2:26:35.040 have much substantial experience in real life interacting with the 2:26:35.120 --> 2:26:39.560 opposite gender. Um. So these perhaps, you know, these these 2:26:39.760 --> 2:26:42.480 so called straight guys that were drawn to fend boys 2:26:43.160 --> 2:26:45.920 also may have had just had like bad experiences with women. 2:26:46.000 --> 2:26:48.520 They may have faced rejection, and that rejection may have 2:26:48.560 --> 2:26:51.440 really brought them down. Um, and then they assume that 2:26:51.440 --> 2:26:53.880 they're always going to be rejected by women because of 2:26:54.000 --> 2:26:57.760 like a few bad experiences and the kind of guys 2:26:57.800 --> 2:27:00.560 who are on these chans forums and at it online 2:27:00.600 --> 2:27:03.680 gaming they tend to be generally more socially outcast people 2:27:03.720 --> 2:27:08.800 who aren't necessarily super physically naturally like attractive and masculine. Right, 2:27:08.879 --> 2:27:11.360 you have to like people. Everyone, almost everyone can be attractive. 2:27:11.360 --> 2:27:12.960 You just have to like put in work if you 2:27:13.120 --> 2:27:14.560 if you just never do that, Like a lot a 2:27:14.600 --> 2:27:16.360 lot of boys are never taught how to actually make 2:27:16.400 --> 2:27:19.520 themselves look good, so they're just kind of like just like, 2:27:20.520 --> 2:27:24.440 like attractive isn't much like they if you go on 2:27:24.520 --> 2:27:26.520 these in cell forms, they'll focus a lot on like, 2:27:26.640 --> 2:27:29.960 well I have you know, there's these folds in the 2:27:30.120 --> 2:27:32.080 creases of my eyes, or like the way that my 2:27:32.240 --> 2:27:36.240 nose is very physically impossible for a woman to be 2:27:36.320 --> 2:27:39.040 into me. And it's like no, like more than people 2:27:39.240 --> 2:27:43.080 Like there's all sorts of different preferences people have for 2:27:43.160 --> 2:27:46.480 physical things, but overall, like the number one thing you 2:27:46.560 --> 2:27:48.880 can do to be attractive is to be a person 2:27:48.959 --> 2:27:52.080 that people like be confident their life if you have 2:27:52.440 --> 2:27:54.760 like have like a good personality, like learn how to 2:27:54.879 --> 2:27:58.480 do a variety of things and just like have have 2:27:58.600 --> 2:28:01.560 a life. Lot of the all these people like that 2:28:01.640 --> 2:28:04.200 seems neat They think that they can achieve, you know, 2:28:04.360 --> 2:28:06.400 they think that women should flock to them even if 2:28:06.400 --> 2:28:07.840 they put in like new effort at all, right, if 2:28:07.840 --> 2:28:09.800 they just do what they're doing, they feel like, why 2:28:09.920 --> 2:28:12.640 is this not working, or the effort they put in. 2:28:12.720 --> 2:28:15.560 It's like Ellie again, Eliot Rogers the perfect example of 2:28:15.600 --> 2:28:17.440 these kind of people. Like the effort that he put 2:28:17.520 --> 2:28:19.280 in was he like made his dad buy him a 2:28:19.360 --> 2:28:22.000 really nice car, and he dressed in expensive clothing. And 2:28:22.040 --> 2:28:25.120 it's like, well, that's actually very few people are attracted 2:28:25.160 --> 2:28:27.840 to that. And yes, the people who are attracted solely 2:28:27.920 --> 2:28:31.120 to someone having a nice car and clothing probably have 2:28:31.320 --> 2:28:36.280 really weird, specific like physical things. They're also only looking for, um, 2:28:36.680 --> 2:28:40.160 But that's because you were like like that, that's not 2:28:40.720 --> 2:28:44.199 making yourself attractive as opposed to I don't know, learning 2:28:44.280 --> 2:28:49.040 how to cook or or learning you know, a foreign language, 2:28:49.280 --> 2:28:53.000 or you know, being an emotionally available person who's not 2:28:53.720 --> 2:28:57.959 purely viewing relationships into transactional nature where you're you're paying 2:28:58.080 --> 2:29:00.600 for sex by being friendly. You know. But you know, 2:29:01.160 --> 2:29:03.600 you know what, but you know what's easier than doing 2:29:03.640 --> 2:29:06.400 all that is just hating women. That is, that's a 2:29:06.480 --> 2:29:08.360 much easier thing for these for these people to do 2:29:09.440 --> 2:29:12.560 default to this. So the Internet taught me one thing. 2:29:12.640 --> 2:29:16.199 It's that it's quite easy to hate women. So while 2:29:16.360 --> 2:29:19.480 these like all right, hell holes like four chune um 2:29:19.720 --> 2:29:22.360 and you know, read it online gaming, right, online gaming 2:29:22.440 --> 2:29:25.560 is full of misogyny. Um, all these all these places 2:29:25.680 --> 2:29:29.800 like really hate like actual women. It's they still heavily 2:29:29.920 --> 2:29:34.000 fetish size femininity, right, it's still viewed as this like glorious, 2:29:34.120 --> 2:29:36.520 like like thing that's put put put put put put 2:29:36.560 --> 2:29:39.600 on a pedestal, even though they hate like actual women themselves. 2:29:40.120 --> 2:29:44.600 So feminine dudes can be fem boys or cause play 2:29:44.600 --> 2:29:49.480 anime to garner attention or social praise, you know, amidst 2:29:49.600 --> 2:29:52.160 some you know standard you know, like people like oh 2:29:52.320 --> 2:29:55.600 your faguetes, you're disgusting comments, But you can then they 2:29:55.640 --> 2:29:57.840 can still like cause play and dress up and post 2:29:57.879 --> 2:30:01.840 pictures without being totally shunned by their fellow edgy writers 2:30:02.400 --> 2:30:04.200 because it's kind of funny and some of them may 2:30:04.200 --> 2:30:06.360 actually find it cute, even even though they may not 2:30:06.440 --> 2:30:09.640 admit it. Uh. Fem boys often do have you know, 2:30:10.080 --> 2:30:12.960 I generally think cute and effeminate features they can in 2:30:13.240 --> 2:30:15.720 For these people, a big part of the goal is 2:30:15.760 --> 2:30:17.600 to like trick the brain into thinking that you're just 2:30:17.720 --> 2:30:20.320 looking at a girl, um that might just so happen 2:30:20.400 --> 2:30:24.480 to have a penis. So therefore, when like viewing these pictures, 2:30:24.920 --> 2:30:27.599 these guys are also like getting a sense of familiarity 2:30:27.920 --> 2:30:31.360 with girl like imagery, um while thinking that like they 2:30:31.440 --> 2:30:34.000 also might have a shot and with interacting with this 2:30:34.080 --> 2:30:36.800 individual because they don't have a vagina, so that makes 2:30:36.840 --> 2:30:39.360 it makes interacting with them like easier because there's like 2:30:39.560 --> 2:30:43.000 more things to relate to. I guess, um, you would 2:30:43.000 --> 2:30:45.360 see a lot of like role playing and like role 2:30:45.400 --> 2:30:48.200 playing of sexting and like role playing of dating girls 2:30:48.640 --> 2:30:52.600 through this femboy framework just actually a really common occurrence 2:30:52.680 --> 2:30:54.600 as like and it was it was explained as like 2:30:55.200 --> 2:30:58.480 it's like a sort of practice for imagining their future 2:30:58.520 --> 2:31:00.280 of dating women. It was like it was like they're 2:31:00.280 --> 2:31:04.080 doing this to like practice interacting with women. Um, so 2:31:04.360 --> 2:31:08.199 they're just gonna be role playing dating fem boys while 2:31:08.280 --> 2:31:11.640 being Nazis. But they're doing it so that it's like 2:31:11.840 --> 2:31:14.400 a practice so that they will be better at dating 2:31:14.440 --> 2:31:17.240 women in the future. It's like so that that's that's 2:31:17.240 --> 2:31:20.520 actually a really common thing um or like yeah, like 2:31:20.600 --> 2:31:23.200 sexting as as as like yeah, I'm just doing this 2:31:23.280 --> 2:31:24.920 for practice, Like I'm not doing this so that I 2:31:25.000 --> 2:31:27.959 will be good at sexting in the future, just doing 2:31:28.000 --> 2:31:30.640 it with these fem boys on you know, discord on 2:31:30.800 --> 2:31:34.840 for chat whatever. Um, because like all of like the 2:31:34.879 --> 2:31:38.800 whole femboy thing is still dealing with the patriarchal views 2:31:39.120 --> 2:31:42.240 of beauty. Right. It's it's femininity as this sort of 2:31:42.320 --> 2:31:46.760 performance put on for the enjoyment of others. And because 2:31:46.800 --> 2:31:50.080 it's about that, like appreciating femininity itself, it's seen as 2:31:50.080 --> 2:31:53.080 a lot safer than full on homosexual attraction, right because 2:31:53.640 --> 2:31:56.199 it's it's allowed if if you're if you can appreciate 2:31:56.360 --> 2:31:59.920 the femininity, then that's allowed to propagate despite also kind 2:32:00.120 --> 2:32:03.959 being degenerate because the person generally fem boys usually self 2:32:04.040 --> 2:32:07.240 ideas male. But because it's wrapped in this feminine package, 2:32:07.640 --> 2:32:11.200 it's allowed to be appreciated. Um. And for the people 2:32:11.240 --> 2:32:13.560 that did eventually come to terms with their queerness, the 2:32:13.800 --> 2:32:17.000 four Chan femboy thing allowed them to safely dip their 2:32:17.040 --> 2:32:22.680 toes into exploring how like exploring homosexuality, bisexuality, exploring like 2:32:22.879 --> 2:32:27.360 gender bending without like abandoning the typical masculine feminine rules 2:32:27.720 --> 2:32:29.680 that were kind of raised to be comfortable with. Right. 2:32:29.720 --> 2:32:33.000 It's still in the regular masculine feminine like rule sets, 2:32:33.480 --> 2:32:37.360 but it's approachable because it's allowed to be done through 2:32:37.400 --> 2:32:40.160 this both both this like ironic joke, but then also 2:32:40.600 --> 2:32:44.120 it's still it's still based off these patriarchal views of 2:32:44.240 --> 2:32:50.320 feminine beauty. So it's it's it's it's a weird thing. Um, 2:32:50.800 --> 2:32:52.560 it's it's that's a that's the other part of it 2:32:52.640 --> 2:32:54.640 that I like to explain to people because you're like, oh, 2:32:55.040 --> 2:32:58.480 that is like trying to picture fascists fake dating each 2:32:58.480 --> 2:33:01.080 other online so that will be better at dating women 2:33:01.120 --> 2:33:04.800 in the future. It's just a very absurd idea. It's 2:33:05.160 --> 2:33:08.680 I it's fair. I'm actually fine with this, but like 2:33:09.040 --> 2:33:11.280 it makes like it makes sense, like it like it, 2:33:11.440 --> 2:33:14.120 like I understand it, and you can like, yeah, I 2:33:15.040 --> 2:33:17.400 get it. Um. And it did help a lot of 2:33:17.440 --> 2:33:20.880 people eventually realize maybe I'm not the straightest stick in 2:33:20.920 --> 2:33:24.680 the shed, or maybe not the straightest stick in the fascies. Yeah. 2:33:24.800 --> 2:33:29.800 I mean everyone needs a safe space to figure out 2:33:30.600 --> 2:33:35.800 what they are, and I guess that even includes fascists, 2:33:36.200 --> 2:33:39.760 maybe because like not because I want fascists to be fascists, 2:33:39.800 --> 2:33:42.959 but because maybe some of them, through this weird role 2:33:43.000 --> 2:33:47.640 playing role, will like get over some stuff absolutely recognize 2:33:47.680 --> 2:33:50.480 that like oh maybe maybe I'm just like gay and 2:33:50.879 --> 2:33:55.600 I need to like work on myself, like I'm I'm 2:33:55.640 --> 2:33:57.520 maybe I've been barking up the wrong tree with all 2:33:57.560 --> 2:34:03.640 this Nazi stuff. Yeah, because like amidst like the gamer 2:34:03.680 --> 2:34:06.119 Gate and the height of the insult era, these guys 2:34:06.200 --> 2:34:09.880 felt more comfortable exploring their burgeoning sexuality in these male 2:34:09.920 --> 2:34:12.600 dominated online spaces right there. It's easier to relate to 2:34:12.680 --> 2:34:14.920 other males when they're when they're all like growing up 2:34:14.959 --> 2:34:17.680 coming of age, dealing with dealing with these like feelings 2:34:17.760 --> 2:34:20.600 of it like abandonment, loneliness. Right, they do this in 2:34:20.640 --> 2:34:24.039 these male spaces, they feel lot safer to express themselves, um, 2:34:24.560 --> 2:34:27.120 you know what, whether or not they're full of fascists 2:34:27.400 --> 2:34:30.119 or like other people who are like very like reactionary, 2:34:30.360 --> 2:34:34.160 because at least they can understand male desire um and 2:34:34.320 --> 2:34:37.440 that's they can relate to that and internact with people 2:34:37.560 --> 2:34:39.920 who are you know, they can eat in act easier 2:34:39.959 --> 2:34:43.320 with people with dicks while wrapped in this feminine package, 2:34:44.120 --> 2:34:46.680 which is so much easier than the much more scary 2:34:46.720 --> 2:34:49.320 and much more elusive of like females out there. Right 2:34:49.360 --> 2:34:51.680 It's it's that that's kind of the framework that this 2:34:51.879 --> 2:34:54.680 was propagated through. It's it's it's really interesting that it's 2:34:54.720 --> 2:35:02.240 like you have these people who like they're they're like 2:35:02.360 --> 2:35:05.880 they're they're they're transmisogyny is such that like they they've 2:35:05.959 --> 2:35:08.680 escalated to a point where it circles back around. Yes, 2:35:08.879 --> 2:35:13.600 it is so intense. It is such a it's there's 2:35:13.680 --> 2:35:17.400 so much going on. Yeah, yeah, it's like it's like 2:35:17.440 --> 2:35:23.640 it becomes this like like I don't know, it becomes 2:35:23.879 --> 2:35:31.080 like the fact that it's like conceptually impossible for them 2:35:31.400 --> 2:35:33.280 for just like a woman to have a dick like 2:35:33.680 --> 2:35:36.560 that has like circled back around and just completely come 2:35:36.640 --> 2:35:38.680 to define how they have gender in such a way 2:35:38.720 --> 2:35:42.560 that someone who is like just is performing gender like 2:35:42.720 --> 2:35:46.000 as a woman, like to the extent that like they're 2:35:46.080 --> 2:35:49.800 trying to like they're they're trying to have people use 2:35:50.360 --> 2:35:55.160 like to transcellors against them. Yeah, there's it's it's an 2:35:55.200 --> 2:35:58.400 interesting there's there's there's so much going on because yeah, 2:35:58.440 --> 2:36:01.760 it's routed in a whole bunch of it's people exploring 2:36:01.840 --> 2:36:04.680 gender in this weird way while also like relying on 2:36:04.920 --> 2:36:11.240 heavily like misogynistic, trans misogynistic, homophobic kind of ideas. But 2:36:11.440 --> 2:36:13.840 it's it's also it's like it's very queer in this 2:36:14.040 --> 2:36:16.000 and like the way in the way they're going about it, 2:36:16.680 --> 2:36:18.520 because it's a whole bunch of like self it's a 2:36:18.560 --> 2:36:21.400 whole bunch of like self justification. It's a it's a 2:36:21.440 --> 2:36:23.959 whole bunch of like stuff around like what they view 2:36:24.160 --> 2:36:26.520 as feminine, what they've us masculine, what what they view 2:36:26.680 --> 2:36:31.240 like being a woman means, um it is it is 2:36:31.600 --> 2:36:33.560 it is. Uh, it's it's a lot yeah, like as 2:36:33.680 --> 2:36:35.920 as like a more as like a gender queer, transperson. 2:36:35.959 --> 2:36:37.280 I like, I like look at them go through all 2:36:37.320 --> 2:36:39.960 this work and like, wow, they could have bypassed a 2:36:40.000 --> 2:36:42.080 whole bunch of bullshit if they just like less of 2:36:42.160 --> 2:36:45.000 a like, if they're just less of if they work 2:36:45.080 --> 2:36:47.400 as horrible people, they could have experienced these same things. 2:36:47.640 --> 2:36:50.360 But again, like they were, they're in their own isolated communities, 2:36:50.640 --> 2:36:52.840 They're they're dealing with the same ingredients just from this 2:36:53.040 --> 2:36:57.640 weird backwards way. So like it's it's obviously very transphoblic 2:36:57.680 --> 2:36:59.040 and in a lot of senses, but a lot of 2:36:59.400 --> 2:37:02.119 a lot of these pop will eventually realized, oh, maybe 2:37:02.160 --> 2:37:05.280 I've actually trends. So it's this it's like I don't know, 2:37:05.720 --> 2:37:09.720 it's obviously not great in a lot of ways, But 2:37:09.800 --> 2:37:12.520 I don't know how to discuss it when saying like, yes, 2:37:12.640 --> 2:37:15.400 it's obviously not great for how like trans misogynistic it is, 2:37:15.840 --> 2:37:19.680 but they're all working through some stuff. Yeah, well you know, 2:37:19.760 --> 2:37:21.280 I don't want The one thing I will say about 2:37:21.320 --> 2:37:24.360 this is like, yeah, like if kids were actually allowed 2:37:24.440 --> 2:37:28.440 to be queer normally, like this ship mostly would not happen, 2:37:28.520 --> 2:37:30.440 Like you, you wouldn't get so many people who get 2:37:30.520 --> 2:37:32.880 locked in these like who are queer, who get locked 2:37:32.879 --> 2:37:36.240 into these spaces. But then also like the only way 2:37:36.280 --> 2:37:38.680 that they could express themselves in these like narrow, isolated 2:37:38.720 --> 2:37:40.920 waping spaces is to like this ship or they're into 2:37:40.959 --> 2:37:45.000 the like just let people express themselves normally, and this 2:37:45.200 --> 2:37:48.680 this you can deny the fascist recruiting ground, Like yeah, 2:37:48.879 --> 2:37:51.080 I mean it's it's interesting, Like it's like when all 2:37:51.200 --> 2:37:53.440 all these people are looking at interacting with them boys, 2:37:54.240 --> 2:37:56.560 I think a lot of those is why they they 2:37:56.600 --> 2:37:58.760 were able to play with these ingredients is that they 2:37:58.800 --> 2:38:02.320 did not experience the same like anxiety or like heightened 2:38:02.400 --> 2:38:05.640 stakes or neative or like negative connotations in their mind 2:38:05.920 --> 2:38:08.840 that that they normally do when thinking about women, because 2:38:08.879 --> 2:38:12.560 women are just so other so especially like if you 2:38:12.640 --> 2:38:15.720 can rationalize this this attraction defend boys as simply a 2:38:15.800 --> 2:38:19.000 prelude to dating like quote like real women in whatever 2:38:19.120 --> 2:38:22.520 like fantasy cottage core future they might imagine, then this 2:38:22.680 --> 2:38:25.800 idea is a way more approachable. You're gonna need to 2:38:25.879 --> 2:38:28.320 explain cottage core for the I am not. I already 2:38:28.360 --> 2:38:31.320 have we have we were having an add break I 2:38:31.400 --> 2:38:35.879 still in brief it is this like return to tradition obsession. 2:38:35.959 --> 2:38:38.880 You see among like chunks of the far right who 2:38:38.920 --> 2:38:42.240 were obsessed with the idea that if they if culture 2:38:42.320 --> 2:38:44.280 was the way it was in the fifties or in 2:38:44.400 --> 2:38:48.400 like the they would live on They would live on 2:38:48.440 --> 2:38:51.360 a small farm with their wife and children who would 2:38:51.360 --> 2:38:53.760 be utterly submissive to them, and everything would be perfect. 2:38:54.160 --> 2:38:56.440 But like, the only thing in between them and happiness 2:38:56.640 --> 2:38:59.160 is that they're not able to live in a in 2:38:59.240 --> 2:39:02.520 a in a small all like farm with a woman 2:39:02.600 --> 2:39:05.840 who they essentially own. That the gist, I will say 2:39:05.840 --> 2:39:08.640 a lot of college course are also used by liberals 2:39:08.680 --> 2:39:10.440 and people on the left as well. Just as like 2:39:10.560 --> 2:39:12.840 an aesthetic thing, we all want to live on a 2:39:12.920 --> 2:39:15.760 small farm in the world. That makes it the cottage 2:39:15.840 --> 2:39:18.160 core that we're talking about is specifically the idea of 2:39:18.600 --> 2:39:21.280 I want to own a woman and and own my 2:39:21.440 --> 2:39:24.480 children and have like no no power capable of like 2:39:24.640 --> 2:39:27.879 stopping me from yeah whatever, because like cottage cottage, corn 2:39:27.959 --> 2:39:31.440 TikTok is pretty sanitized and pretty much like more of 2:39:31.480 --> 2:39:35.160 an aesthetic thing, less tied to those patriarchal structures. But anyway, 2:39:35.280 --> 2:39:38.199 like everything we're talking about, there's the version that's Nazis, 2:39:38.240 --> 2:39:40.640 and there's the version that's, like, boy, it sucks living 2:39:40.680 --> 2:39:43.000 in a four thousand dollar a month apartment in New 2:39:43.080 --> 2:39:45.640 York City that I share with nine people. I sure 2:39:45.680 --> 2:39:49.240 would like to live on a cottage in the woods. Anyway, 2:39:49.360 --> 2:39:52.480 speaking of living in college in these woods, Um, if 2:39:52.560 --> 2:39:54.680 you buy these products, it'll get you closer to your 2:39:54.720 --> 2:39:58.959 college core lifestyle. So give it away. Sponsored entirely by 2:39:59.280 --> 2:40:06.360 the concept big cottage, big cottage, the cottage industrial complex. Alright, 2:40:06.480 --> 2:40:08.879 we are back, and now we're talking about the point 2:40:09.000 --> 2:40:12.080 of the Nazi cat boy debate that everyone I think 2:40:12.160 --> 2:40:15.520 who is familiar with the topic knew was coming. No, 2:40:15.920 --> 2:40:19.040 no breakdown of Nazi cat boys and the Nazi catboy 2:40:19.080 --> 2:40:23.800 phenomenon is complete without talking about Nick Flintez and Catboy Cammy. 2:40:24.000 --> 2:40:27.760 So Nick Flintes, Yeah, this is uh, this is this 2:40:27.879 --> 2:40:28.879 is part of the part of the show that ever 2:40:29.000 --> 2:40:31.760 that everyone's been waiting for. Um. I don't know that 2:40:31.840 --> 2:40:33.920 most people would know to be waiting for this, but 2:40:35.920 --> 2:40:40.520 broadly recognized by our audience. So in short, if George 2:40:40.560 --> 2:40:44.200 Lincoln Rockwell has the permanent body of a seventeen year 2:40:44.240 --> 2:40:49.200 old boy, um, that that's Nick Flintest as many if 2:40:49.200 --> 2:40:52.039 you know, Nick Flintes is a white nationalist livestreamer political 2:40:52.120 --> 2:40:57.120 activists that runs the Fascist America First organization. Uh. He's 2:40:57.160 --> 2:40:59.880 known for fostering a farther right conservative base than say 2:41:00.000 --> 2:41:03.440 and Shapiro or Turning Point USA. Um, and has pulled 2:41:03.480 --> 2:41:07.959 stunts like sending his fans called gropers to Turning Point 2:41:08.040 --> 2:41:10.520 USA events to take over the Q and A sections 2:41:10.920 --> 2:41:15.760 and basically asked Charlie Kirk why he isn't more fascist? Um. Yeah, 2:41:15.920 --> 2:41:18.880 And so he runs this whole organization mostly known by 2:41:18.959 --> 2:41:21.240 doing his Daily Lives streams. He's been doing this since 2:41:21.280 --> 2:41:25.560 he's like sixteen or seventeen years old. Fucking nonsense. Um. 2:41:27.160 --> 2:41:31.000 And it's kind of a running joke or widely acknowledged 2:41:31.040 --> 2:41:34.880 secret that Nick is kind of gay. Um. Based on 2:41:34.920 --> 2:41:36.840 the way he talks about women, and based on what 2:41:36.879 --> 2:41:39.840 he said about his own dating history and snide comments 2:41:39.959 --> 2:41:42.879 from fellow home Homo Nazi friends has led a lot, 2:41:43.120 --> 2:41:44.879 has led a lot of people to to this conclusion 2:41:45.200 --> 2:41:48.400 that Nick may not be again the straightest stick in 2:41:48.520 --> 2:41:55.600 the fascists. UM, thank you, thank you, thank you one. 2:41:56.160 --> 2:41:59.680 And as as a significant contributing factor to this like question, 2:41:59.800 --> 2:42:06.960 the nixt sexuality um is due to his catboy arc. Um. 2:42:07.480 --> 2:42:14.680 So so this this arc begins in January, UM, finally 2:42:14.760 --> 2:42:19.520 giving our audience the important important news. This is what 2:42:19.680 --> 2:42:24.080 you need to know people. That month, Nick created a 2:42:24.320 --> 2:42:28.640 catboy themed channel in his own America first Discord server 2:42:29.959 --> 2:42:35.240 with Nick, with Nick messaging post catboys in here, please 2:42:35.680 --> 2:42:40.240 with with weird capitalizations throughout the throughout the thing. So 2:42:40.920 --> 2:42:44.240 Nick cheered on along with other people, posting pictures of 2:42:44.360 --> 2:42:48.000 various cat boys from pop culture and cat boy edits 2:42:48.320 --> 2:42:55.000 of Nick Fintez himself. UM. One America First Server user 2:42:55.360 --> 2:43:03.000 posted cat boys are trad and which means like traditional 2:43:03.520 --> 2:43:07.200 list in kind of the sense that like Nazis are traditionalist. 2:43:07.360 --> 2:43:10.000 That's that's what that person is saying. He also posted 2:43:10.240 --> 2:43:14.880 very funny. He also posted cat boys were like cath boys. 2:43:15.800 --> 2:43:22.680 Oh god, so like again Yeah, yeah, so that's that's 2:43:22.800 --> 2:43:28.840 that's the that's the joke. I'm you're, you're, you're out 2:43:28.879 --> 2:43:32.280 of control right now. This is it is so I've 2:43:32.360 --> 2:43:35.800 I've looked through this discord. He's arguing, this isn't very funny. 2:43:36.680 --> 2:43:39.520 I've looked through this discord server multiple times for the 2:43:39.680 --> 2:43:42.840 for the screenshots when you have the cathboy channel, and 2:43:42.920 --> 2:43:45.240 it always makes me happy. It is. It's one of 2:43:45.280 --> 2:43:48.959 the most funny things I've ever seen. Yeah, as as 2:43:49.000 --> 2:43:51.680 your friend, I'm always warring between wanting you to be 2:43:51.800 --> 2:43:54.280 happy and worried that this is a cry for help, 2:43:54.520 --> 2:44:00.560 but please continue. Eventually, Nick faced some pushback from inside 2:44:00.600 --> 2:44:05.960 the server for fostering degeneracy um with with others with 2:44:06.840 --> 2:44:10.440 with others defending the Catboy channel by saying, brother, we 2:44:10.520 --> 2:44:16.320 love is Christian amazing and standing see this is this 2:44:16.560 --> 2:44:18.680 is this is exactly, this is the good ship. This 2:44:18.840 --> 2:44:21.880 is what we've been building towards as a civilization, right there, baby. 2:44:24.120 --> 2:44:27.360 Other people other people defended the Catboy channel by saying, 2:44:27.800 --> 2:44:33.279 women don't respect Christianity. Your tribes thoughttery always leaks out eventually. 2:44:33.959 --> 2:44:40.440 Good God, yes, that's that's that's the good stuff I got. 2:44:40.680 --> 2:44:43.680 I got no comment, just just perfect thank you. But 2:44:44.120 --> 2:44:47.080 but because Nick is fundamentally a coward, he did cave 2:44:47.200 --> 2:44:51.680 under pressure and deleted the catboy channel. Um, we we lost. 2:44:52.000 --> 2:44:54.160 I think the American First movement today could be so 2:44:54.320 --> 2:44:57.320 different if he kept this is this is why the 2:44:57.440 --> 2:45:02.240 cause of Americanism is doomed, this kind of cowardice. But 2:45:02.480 --> 2:45:06.600 but but as as we will see from Nick, oh 2:45:06.760 --> 2:45:09.959 absolutely this this whole, this whole sections about Nick Fintest 2:45:10.040 --> 2:45:16.280 being thoroughly cocked. But as as we will see, Nick 2:45:16.400 --> 2:45:20.760 continued to use um the exact rhetoric I laid out 2:45:21.240 --> 2:45:24.120 in my in Sales gammer Gate and antifeminist section while 2:45:24.200 --> 2:45:29.080 defending what he calls attraction to traps um and we can, 2:45:29.200 --> 2:45:31.440 of course, we can apply this this defense broadly to 2:45:31.520 --> 2:45:35.240 catboys and from boys, as Nick does. Um, I'm going 2:45:35.320 --> 2:45:38.080 to try to I'm going to try to play a 2:45:38.240 --> 2:45:43.720 video of about about Nick fuentas um our traps gay? Yeah, 2:45:43.760 --> 2:45:46.960 traps are gay. I've always maintained traps are gay. Of 2:45:47.040 --> 2:45:48.840 course you have sex with the man, it's gay. There's 2:45:48.879 --> 2:45:54.080 no getting around now. Now, that's said. That's said, Look, 2:45:54.560 --> 2:45:58.160 it's gay. I get it. I agree. Now that's said, 2:45:58.280 --> 2:46:01.160 it's you know, we're in times where the women are 2:46:01.360 --> 2:46:03.959 not really meeting their obligations. So I'm not saying you're not. Look, 2:46:03.959 --> 2:46:05.840 if you have sex with the trap, you're game, no 2:46:05.959 --> 2:46:07.440 doubt about that, and you should be ready killed, you 2:46:07.480 --> 2:46:09.800 should be made fun of. But it's a little bit 2:46:09.840 --> 2:46:11.879 different than if you did it like twenty years ago. 2:46:12.000 --> 2:46:14.920 That's all I'm saying. If you in the nineteen sixties, 2:46:15.040 --> 2:46:17.240 in the nineteen sixties were banging a trap, I would 2:46:17.280 --> 2:46:20.000 say what's wrong with you? Like I would say that now. 2:46:20.160 --> 2:46:22.240 I would say that now, I would say, well, you're 2:46:22.320 --> 2:46:25.120 some kind of sick freak. We have all these beautiful 2:46:25.160 --> 2:46:28.320 girls and they're normal, you know, and you have sex 2:46:28.360 --> 2:46:31.960 with a trap. What's wrong with you? But in nineteen 2:46:32.000 --> 2:46:34.320 it's like, well, it's it's different. It's a different circumstance, 2:46:34.400 --> 2:46:38.560 different options. There're still disavowed, I disavow, it's condemned, it's gay, 2:46:38.640 --> 2:46:40.280 it's all that. But you know, it's just different. I 2:46:40.320 --> 2:46:46.440 think everybody understands that. But I'm still listen to half 2:46:46.440 --> 2:46:48.800 a little just have to have a little nuance all right, 2:46:48.879 --> 2:46:53.199 it's just a little nuance different times to different times. 2:46:53.240 --> 2:46:58.640 It's I maintain strong disavowal, strong disavowal, do not do 2:46:58.879 --> 2:47:03.039 not do that. It's gay, it's immoral. You're going to hell, 2:47:03.200 --> 2:47:06.920 and it's weird and it's gross. Oh my god, what's 2:47:06.959 --> 2:47:13.560 wrong with you? Yeah, I haven't heard that one in 2:47:13.600 --> 2:47:18.360 a minute, person, I'm upset. That was horrible. You don't 2:47:18.360 --> 2:47:21.880 heard femoids since the David Sereni days, which looks at 2:47:21.920 --> 2:47:25.039 home if you don't, if you if you missed David Serene, 2:47:25.280 --> 2:47:27.800 you missed the one brief moment where the far right 2:47:28.080 --> 2:47:35.520 was purely funny. That was bad. So so being the worst. 2:47:35.680 --> 2:47:38.640 So yes, being being attracted to traps makes makes it gay, 2:47:38.680 --> 2:47:41.560 according to him, But not really, because the female race 2:47:41.640 --> 2:47:43.440 isn't carrying their burden like it once did back in 2:47:43.520 --> 2:47:47.320 the sixties. It's like back in back in back in 2:47:47.440 --> 2:47:50.760 the old days of the nineteen sixties. It's it's like 2:47:50.840 --> 2:47:56.120 they've almost gotten back to the like the I mean, 2:47:56.160 --> 2:47:59.280 I guess it probably still sor but like the thing 2:47:59.360 --> 2:48:01.920 you got with that just sometimes where they were like, yeah, 2:48:02.040 --> 2:48:04.240 like I fucked, but I'm a top. So it's not gay. 2:48:04.640 --> 2:48:09.840 It's like like so close there, They're so close, and 2:48:09.920 --> 2:48:15.040 it's like it's not like Roy Cone kind of yeah. Yeah, 2:48:15.080 --> 2:48:18.560 it's like I think I think like I think once 2:48:18.640 --> 2:48:22.120 we get like just slightly like maybe like twenty more 2:48:22.280 --> 2:48:26.080 years out from like the evangelical evangelicalism as I don't know, 2:48:26.600 --> 2:48:28.360 I mean maybe maybe maybe it's resurgen is gonna be 2:48:28.400 --> 2:48:31.600 like a big enough heyday thing. But it's like I think, 2:48:31.640 --> 2:48:34.320 if you had like twenty years with the right wasn't 2:48:34.440 --> 2:48:38.320 completely dominated by a certain evangelical homophobia, like I think 2:48:38.360 --> 2:48:41.760 you would just get back there and well, we're already 2:48:41.800 --> 2:48:46.400 on that way. And it's but the Nick Funt has 2:48:46.480 --> 2:48:49.520 kept by saga, let's not stop here. No no, no, no, no, 2:48:49.640 --> 2:48:54.080 no I am It is funny, maybe the wrong word, 2:48:54.280 --> 2:48:58.000 but fascinating that we are heading inevitably barreling towards this 2:48:58.120 --> 2:49:02.200 future where simultane neviously homophobia is still a massive part 2:49:02.280 --> 2:49:06.640 of conservative politics and conservatives are gay as hell. Like 2:49:07.760 --> 2:49:11.960 that's that's absolutely something where we are speeding towards like 2:49:12.440 --> 2:49:14.840 a drunken family on the back of a four wheeler 2:49:14.920 --> 2:49:18.040 about to break all of their necks at once and 2:49:18.920 --> 2:49:22.360 crash in the woods. So Nick Fuentes love tweeting about 2:49:22.400 --> 2:49:26.640 cat boys. He didn't a lot, And for a while, 2:49:27.080 --> 2:49:30.519 Nick's cat boy jokes and like a memory was tolerated 2:49:30.720 --> 2:49:34.760 under his banner of like irony poisoned reactionary comedy. But 2:49:34.920 --> 2:49:37.800 every ironic joke has a stipping point that makes that 2:49:37.840 --> 2:49:42.280 makes enough people wonder is this actually ironic? Uh? And 2:49:42.520 --> 2:49:45.520 for Fuentes, that moment came when he live streamed a 2:49:45.600 --> 2:49:48.320 ten hour date with a fellow fascist live streamer who 2:49:48.360 --> 2:49:52.320 went by the name cat Boy Cammy. Now, first let's 2:49:52.400 --> 2:49:55.960 let me explain who cat Boy Cammy wasn't at the time. 2:49:56.280 --> 2:49:59.360 Then we'll get into the date that that we'll get 2:49:59.360 --> 2:50:03.199 into Nick went as his brief altright cancelation, so Tour 2:50:03.320 --> 2:50:06.240 Brooks a k a. Cowboy Cammy, formerly going under the 2:50:06.640 --> 2:50:11.320 user name lolly Socks. So that's fun. Um is an 2:50:11.360 --> 2:50:15.040 Australian fascist live streamer who first came to prominence by 2:50:15.120 --> 2:50:18.560 uploading clips of himself harassing users on the popular video 2:50:18.720 --> 2:50:23.320 chatting site Oh mowgli Ogilby. I ever know how to 2:50:23.320 --> 2:50:31.240 say this? One mogul little emogli people here, people, people 2:50:31.240 --> 2:50:32.760 will know what I'm talking about. It's this it's this 2:50:32.920 --> 2:50:37.879 randomized chatting app that does video chatting with the randomized users. 2:50:38.600 --> 2:50:41.280 Oh yeah, it's O M E G L E. I 2:50:41.360 --> 2:50:43.440 never know how to say it, but it's this. He 2:50:43.920 --> 2:50:46.880 would he would upload himself videos of him harassing people 2:50:47.560 --> 2:50:50.400 via via this chatting app. UM. In one of them, 2:50:50.600 --> 2:50:54.039 he dressed his up in black face and while brandishing 2:50:54.120 --> 2:50:56.080 guns and trying to he was trying to find like 2:50:56.200 --> 2:51:00.080 black black kids to taunt on this platform. Another one 2:51:00.080 --> 2:51:02.600 he dressed up as a policeman UM and kneels and 2:51:02.640 --> 2:51:06.360 an effigy he made likeness of George Floyd. Um, he 2:51:06.480 --> 2:51:08.920 it's it's he is, he is. He is pretty gross. Uh, 2:51:09.000 --> 2:51:11.440 he's he's he's he's a pretty horrible person. But for 2:51:11.520 --> 2:51:15.360 a long time, his bit was dressing up in anime 2:51:15.480 --> 2:51:19.280 costumes and dressing up as a catboy. Uh to then 2:51:19.400 --> 2:51:22.280 talk about like neo Nazi rhetoric. Well, dressed as a 2:51:22.280 --> 2:51:24.280 catboy and this this was his funny bit that he 2:51:24.320 --> 2:51:27.000 would do. UM. At one point he was streaming like 2:51:27.080 --> 2:51:30.240 twenty four hours a day, uh, for ten days, for 2:51:30.360 --> 2:51:31.840 like for the for the days and days on end 2:51:32.200 --> 2:51:34.640 um and he was earning thousands of followers from places 2:51:34.680 --> 2:51:37.560 like US and Russia. Uh and he became the seventh 2:51:37.640 --> 2:51:40.880 highest earning streamer on d live and d live was 2:51:40.920 --> 2:51:44.240 a popular live streaming platform used by fascists um in 2:51:44.680 --> 2:51:47.320 and so in late twenty nineteen was when Cowboy Cammy 2:51:47.400 --> 2:51:50.560 popped up like in America, initially catching the attention of 2:51:50.720 --> 2:51:53.800 Nick Fuentez. Over over the course of a few months. 2:51:54.040 --> 2:51:57.000 UH he kind of made friends with various people in 2:51:57.160 --> 2:52:01.880 the American far right internet sphere, like Milo Richard Spencer 2:52:02.520 --> 2:52:06.360 Baked Alaska, but but Nick Fuentes was his original kind 2:52:06.360 --> 2:52:09.880 of entry point into this. Nick saw Nick saw his 2:52:10.000 --> 2:52:13.800 videos online and was interested in like what he was doing. Uh. 2:52:13.959 --> 2:52:15.680 Nick said that he had a good sense of humor, 2:52:16.000 --> 2:52:20.080 and he's good looking, and demonstrated and demonstrated his repeatability 2:52:20.200 --> 2:52:22.520 that he's able to achieve viral moments and retain a 2:52:22.640 --> 2:52:26.080 streaming audience. So Nick became friends with him because he 2:52:26.200 --> 2:52:28.920 thought Cowboy Camy would be like a growing internet presence. 2:52:29.200 --> 2:52:32.480 I wanted to kind of move his his type of 2:52:32.600 --> 2:52:35.720 like his type of pretty like racist and horrible like 2:52:35.840 --> 2:52:38.520 joke pranks, and tried to give them more, give them 2:52:38.560 --> 2:52:43.160 more of a platform to kind of frontline reactionary ideologies. Um. 2:52:43.640 --> 2:52:46.080 So when when Nick was getting familiar with Kawboy Cammy 2:52:46.280 --> 2:52:49.720 Cammy on online activities were mainly consisting of dressing up 2:52:49.720 --> 2:52:52.360 as an ANIMI cowboy to do random like political debates 2:52:52.520 --> 2:52:54.680 or live streams or show it like anime conventions to 2:52:54.720 --> 2:52:58.279 harass people, um and doing like various gags and pranks. 2:52:59.080 --> 2:53:03.440 One of the most infamous incidents was when he was 2:53:03.720 --> 2:53:06.520 deep throating a massive horse cock dildo hooked up to 2:53:06.640 --> 2:53:11.200 a bucket of fake semen. Um good, okay, yeah, so 2:53:11.920 --> 2:53:17.560 in December, in December, Catboy Cammy flew from Australia to 2:53:17.680 --> 2:53:22.840 go visiton No, the semen was fake? It was? It 2:53:22.959 --> 2:53:26.080 was Oh okay, gotcha it was. It was a massive 2:53:26.080 --> 2:53:28.720 horse cock dildoo hooked up to a bucket of like 2:53:28.760 --> 2:53:31.320 fake semen. Right, okay, so just like corn starch and 2:53:31.440 --> 2:53:33.320 I'm happy. Yeah, if we want to go of a 2:53:33.360 --> 2:53:35.880 recipe's later, I'm sure we could make that a whole episode. 2:53:35.959 --> 2:53:40.160 But now I know how to make fake come. In December, 2:53:41.560 --> 2:53:45.359 Catboy Cavy flew from Australia to go visit Nick Fuentez 2:53:46.200 --> 2:53:50.000 and then just proceeded to live stream the ten hour 2:53:50.280 --> 2:53:53.680 totally straight hangout session with Catboy Camy dressed up as 2:53:53.680 --> 2:53:55.720 a cowboy the entire time. I mean, this does sound 2:53:55.920 --> 2:53:58.920 very straight to me. They go to they go to 2:53:59.000 --> 2:54:03.280 an arcade, they play games together, they get food and milkshakes. 2:54:03.680 --> 2:54:07.320 They go clothing shopping and try on matching outfits, um, 2:54:07.600 --> 2:54:11.680 all while laughing and giggling the entire time. Um well, 2:54:11.959 --> 2:54:15.680 while uh well, uh while driving and listening to extremely 2:54:15.760 --> 2:54:18.960 gay pop music. Catboy Cammy says to Nick that he 2:54:19.120 --> 2:54:21.920 reminds them of an X. It's great and by the 2:54:22.080 --> 2:54:24.000 end of the ten hour stream, it's implied that they 2:54:24.080 --> 2:54:26.560 it's it's the end of stream. It's implied that they 2:54:26.600 --> 2:54:30.560 share a room for the night. Um. Sure they did. 2:54:31.320 --> 2:54:37.000 And it's ten hours of pure horrible Nazi flirting and 2:54:37.080 --> 2:54:42.040 it's it's pretty. It's it's a thing. It exists. Um 2:54:42.640 --> 2:54:45.480 But as so as news and details of the live 2:54:45.560 --> 2:54:49.480 stream uh started to circulate, a wave of a wave 2:54:49.560 --> 2:54:52.440 of infighting among the alt right and the gropers spawned 2:54:52.600 --> 2:54:56.400 some amazing articles and headlines from neo Nazi news sites. Uh. 2:54:56.560 --> 2:55:00.240 There's a headline from the Daily Stormer called the Rowing 2:55:00.280 --> 2:55:03.360 for a Revolution is canceled after Nick Fuentes reveals to 2:55:03.440 --> 2:55:10.480 be a catboy and gay Fayett. It's just pretty pretty astonishing. Yeah, 2:55:11.840 --> 2:55:15.160 that sounds that sounds about right. And other other great headlines. 2:55:15.240 --> 2:55:18.600 We have a Fuentes disavows catboy after a pressure from 2:55:18.680 --> 2:55:25.000 trad news. If you're if you're sitting down and for 2:55:25.200 --> 2:55:28.160 your movement that you want to take over the government 2:55:28.280 --> 2:55:32.640 typing down Fuentes disavows cat boy. Perhaps you need to 2:55:32.680 --> 2:55:36.199 think about some things. We got another headline as catboy 2:55:36.320 --> 2:55:40.560 Candy versus Richard Spencer because Richard Spencer trying to cancel 2:55:41.040 --> 2:55:45.560 Nick for this because Nick was getting more popular than him. Um. 2:55:46.520 --> 2:55:49.080 And we have then another great headline just a Nick 2:55:49.160 --> 2:55:58.400 Fuentes catboy BFF is a mockery to his sexuality anyway, 2:55:58.640 --> 2:56:00.960 it's uh, it's pretty good. There's this this great this 2:56:01.040 --> 2:56:03.400 is this this great? Um. A bit from one of 2:56:03.440 --> 2:56:05.720 these articles, which which which which which I'll quote. So 2:56:05.959 --> 2:56:08.400 it starts to start off by saying, is Nick Fuente 2:56:08.480 --> 2:56:10.800 is attracted to women? If you trusted the plan, you 2:56:10.840 --> 2:56:13.880 wouldn't ask such questions. I will say that I don't 2:56:13.920 --> 2:56:16.880 think the ten hour live stream helps King Nick of 2:56:17.000 --> 2:56:19.280 the Grappers. At the moment he had a good thing 2:56:19.320 --> 2:56:21.360 going by trying to promote a more Christian and normal 2:56:21.440 --> 2:56:24.160 presenting nationalist movement and was getting a lot of traction 2:56:24.360 --> 2:56:27.680 until he ruined his image by associating it with this. 2:56:28.520 --> 2:56:30.800 None of his various enemies did this to him either. 2:56:31.040 --> 2:56:38.040 He did it entirely to himself. So yeah, um but like, obviously, 2:56:38.120 --> 2:56:41.000 like the point of this is not to like, not 2:56:41.200 --> 2:56:45.240 to like put Nick Fuentez's sexuality on blast, like I do, 2:56:45.480 --> 2:56:48.800 do not care one way or the other. Um, it's 2:56:48.840 --> 2:56:51.920 not a problem. The problem isn't is that. The problem 2:56:52.000 --> 2:56:55.800 isn't that Nick may find cat boys incredibly hot. Uh. 2:56:56.040 --> 2:56:57.800 But the problem is that he's like a Nazi and 2:56:57.920 --> 2:57:01.440 stuff and calls for the extermination of gay people while 2:57:01.520 --> 2:57:05.760 also doing all of this ship um and you know Nick, 2:57:05.879 --> 2:57:08.520 Nick still maintains that he isn't gay and gay people 2:57:08.560 --> 2:57:11.760 should be exiled from society and he would never associate 2:57:11.800 --> 2:57:14.800 with homosexuals blah blah blah blah blah, um, all while 2:57:14.879 --> 2:57:20.760 doing all this incredibly straight behavior. Um. Uh. For update 2:57:20.800 --> 2:57:24.800 on Catboy Cammy. Later, Catboy Cammy made multiple appearances That's 2:57:24.959 --> 2:57:28.920 Trump rallies and various other political events, going viral multiple 2:57:28.959 --> 2:57:33.520 times for screaming incredibly racist, anti Semitic and openly fascist rants. Um. 2:57:34.080 --> 2:57:37.760 You probably saw footage of catboy Cammy in Um. He 2:57:37.879 --> 2:57:39.560 was just just, he was just he was just dressed 2:57:39.560 --> 2:57:42.200 as like a regular person. But he there was a 2:57:42.360 --> 2:57:44.440 few clips of him at Trump rallies that went very 2:57:44.600 --> 2:57:49.960 very viral. Um and Nick even u disowned disavowed catboy 2:57:50.000 --> 2:57:54.840 camy for bad optics. Uh. During during during these incredibly 2:57:55.000 --> 2:57:57.160 racist rants, he would he would go on at at 2:57:57.200 --> 2:57:59.720 at Trump rallies. Um. And then of course we have 2:57:59.760 --> 2:58:03.800 a mayor America First and uh and and Nick Fuentez 2:58:03.920 --> 2:58:06.680 then being you know, an escalating part of the protests 2:58:06.800 --> 2:58:11.640 in d C leading to January six. Um, we have 2:58:12.320 --> 2:58:16.160 the person alleged to have stolen Nancy Polosi's laptop being 2:58:16.360 --> 2:58:21.320 in those America First discord servers and uh and grooming 2:58:22.200 --> 2:58:25.039 young boys by dressing up as a cat girl. Um 2:58:25.840 --> 2:58:29.160 So all part of all, part of this will get 2:58:29.200 --> 2:58:31.680 talked about later in like these articles and stuff. This 2:58:31.760 --> 2:58:34.360 has not been talked about. Some people already know about it. 2:58:34.760 --> 2:58:37.280 But but yes, um, so it's all part of this 2:58:37.400 --> 2:58:41.440 same like Nick Fuentez catboy sect of things of these 2:58:41.520 --> 2:58:44.000 these like people who who call themselves tread cats who 2:58:44.080 --> 2:58:46.480 then do all this weird cat boy shit. And yes, 2:58:46.800 --> 2:58:49.040 the the person who stole people laptop who was like 2:58:49.080 --> 2:58:53.280 an open Nazi, UM was was grooming like miners on 2:58:53.480 --> 2:58:55.960 on discord by dressing up this cat girl, by by 2:58:56.680 --> 2:59:00.280 dressing up with a cat girl. Um. Yeah, so there's 2:59:00.320 --> 2:59:02.160 a whole buch of this, this whole sphere of stuff. 2:59:02.200 --> 2:59:09.400 You can find some incredibly dark dark corners. Um. But nowadays, uh, 2:59:09.640 --> 2:59:13.560 in the Year of Our Lord, UH, fem boys are 2:59:13.959 --> 2:59:16.360 way more of like it's like generally acknowledged to be 2:59:16.400 --> 2:59:18.080 like a kind of like a leftist like communist thing 2:59:18.120 --> 2:59:21.520 almost um like and and I think the reason why 2:59:21.600 --> 2:59:24.520 this debate got so I think the reason why the 2:59:24.560 --> 2:59:26.800 fascist like the fascist femboy debate got so kind of 2:59:27.040 --> 2:59:29.360 heightened in the past few years, like ever since, like 2:59:29.400 --> 2:59:32.600 tumbler band porn, Uh, there's been a migration of tumbloy 2:59:32.680 --> 2:59:35.119 users onto Twitter, and a part of part a part 2:59:35.160 --> 2:59:37.840 of this migration is not sake for work users and 2:59:37.920 --> 2:59:41.520 content um, including fem boys and people who fetishize fem 2:59:41.560 --> 2:59:44.920 boys and even fetishized racist fem boys moving moving on 2:59:45.000 --> 2:59:46.840 to Twitter, right, Twitter has become the new has become 2:59:46.879 --> 2:59:49.320 the new de facto tumbler in a lot of senses. 2:59:49.640 --> 2:59:51.680 So the past three years, more and more normalies have 2:59:51.720 --> 2:59:55.000 been exposed to these types of like off the cuff people. Um. Then, 2:59:55.040 --> 2:59:57.600 of course TikTok has sent fem boys into the mainstream 2:59:57.640 --> 3:00:00.400 because TikTok is also it's not an image ward, but 3:00:00.520 --> 3:00:02.640 it is a visual medium right where you're posting small 3:00:02.720 --> 3:00:04.800 videos of yourselves. So a lot of a lot of 3:00:04.879 --> 3:00:07.480 cat boy and fenboy content on TikTok. There's even this 3:00:07.560 --> 3:00:12.280 horrible article from two from August by Vice called introducing 3:00:12.520 --> 3:00:14.959 fem boys the most wholesome trend on TikTok, as if 3:00:15.000 --> 3:00:22.040 fenb boys were invented in mind boggling article of But yeah, 3:00:22.080 --> 3:00:24.560 fenboys are now much more. If you take the Vice 3:00:24.640 --> 3:00:27.480 article as an example, fen boys are now fully mainstreamed. Right. 3:00:27.840 --> 3:00:30.600 Fenboys used to be a small subculture, but among gen 3:00:30.760 --> 3:00:33.080 Z kind of culture as a whole. Now fen boys 3:00:33.120 --> 3:00:35.400 are very popular. They are they are kind of they 3:00:35.440 --> 3:00:37.160 are one of one of like one of like the 3:00:37.200 --> 3:00:41.200 hot new pokemons to collect um And I'm going to 3:00:41.760 --> 3:00:46.000 har that's cultural appropriation from millennials. You're not allowed to 3:00:46.040 --> 3:00:49.760 talk about pokemons. I don't I don't care. We we 3:00:49.920 --> 3:00:53.119 own those. I just just to talk about like scale 3:00:53.160 --> 3:00:55.040 of memes here. I have some Google have some like 3:00:55.080 --> 3:00:59.280 Google trends, um on like Nazi cat boys and not 3:00:59.440 --> 3:01:03.800 see fem boys. Uh, and we see the mass The biggest, 3:01:04.040 --> 3:01:10.920 biggest spike in Nazi femboy is January of one, which 3:01:11.000 --> 3:01:14.840 makes sense that that's when I started writing this this script. Actually, um, 3:01:15.200 --> 3:01:17.880 you say yeah for for Google trends, we got a 3:01:17.959 --> 3:01:20.920 massive spike in January one, and it's kind of been 3:01:20.959 --> 3:01:23.680 decreasing since then, but still still like it was. It 3:01:23.800 --> 3:01:25.800 was like you would see blips every once in a while, 3:01:25.800 --> 3:01:27.800 like there's a small blip of Nazi fem boys in 3:01:29.360 --> 3:01:33.120 a small blip in and then a small blip at 3:01:33.160 --> 3:01:36.440 the start of the pandemic in March because people are 3:01:36.480 --> 3:01:40.040 alone and isolated so they're doing this instead. Um. And 3:01:40.160 --> 3:01:45.240 then yeah, January one, massive massive spike. UM the same 3:01:45.280 --> 3:01:48.119 thing with a very similar to racist fem Boy. It's 3:01:48.160 --> 3:01:51.720 basically the same exact trajectory. We do get a pretty 3:01:51.720 --> 3:01:55.000 big spike and racist fem boy in June of um 3:01:55.080 --> 3:01:58.160 and then another big spike of actually of November one 3:01:58.480 --> 3:02:02.600 is the highest. The highest searches for racist FM boy. 3:02:02.720 --> 3:02:04.600 So it's still very much an ongoing meme of like 3:02:04.680 --> 3:02:06.680 a thing I'll being like, yeah, femboys are pretty racist. 3:02:06.800 --> 3:02:11.720 It's still completely completely ongoing. Oh thank god, Yeah it is. 3:02:11.800 --> 3:02:13.600 It's don't worries, it's not. It's not a closed case. 3:02:13.879 --> 3:02:16.440 And that's good. Garrison. I was really worried for a second. 3:02:17.040 --> 3:02:19.440 No people, people, and this, Like I think, I think 3:02:19.480 --> 3:02:21.960 if you're not extremely online, you probably even like you 3:02:22.040 --> 3:02:24.080 might not know about this, Like this is like this 3:02:24.200 --> 3:02:28.200 is an actual discourse on Twitter, like like this there 3:02:28.240 --> 3:02:31.080 will be like a week We're the only thing people 3:02:31.200 --> 3:02:34.240 argue about is whether fem boys are inherently racist, which 3:02:34.800 --> 3:02:40.120 obviously they're not. Like it's it's so. And the last 3:02:40.120 --> 3:02:43.200 thing I'm gonna mention here is enemy is in the 3:02:43.520 --> 3:02:46.959 Is it the unicorn riot discord leaks? When they leaked 3:02:47.000 --> 3:02:49.720 a whole bunch of information from lots of different fascist chattels. 3:02:50.040 --> 3:02:52.960 We have over a thousand mentions of cat boys inside 3:02:53.200 --> 3:02:58.360 that you know, couldn't riot fascist discord leaks? Garrison. I 3:02:58.440 --> 3:03:02.360 have a question for you, Yes, do you think God 3:03:02.480 --> 3:03:05.880 stays in heaven because he too lives in fear of 3:03:05.920 --> 3:03:10.760 what he's created here on Earth. So if you want 3:03:10.800 --> 3:03:12.560 to have a fun time, you can go to Discord, 3:03:12.640 --> 3:03:17.120 Leaks dot Unicorn, Riot dot Ninja, um slash Discord slash search, 3:03:17.600 --> 3:03:21.560 then put in, put in catboy and scrolls skulls scrolls 3:03:21.560 --> 3:03:25.959 through thousands of posts from these Nazi channels, not mend 3:03:26.080 --> 3:03:28.520 cat for here we got stuff from like sar god 3:03:28.560 --> 3:03:32.320 of a cod the We have the Discord channel, Domestic 3:03:32.520 --> 3:03:37.800 Terrorism Planning, Discord Catboy channel, we of course have we 3:03:37.840 --> 3:03:41.360 of course have Nick Fuentez. We got every whatever you 3:03:41.400 --> 3:03:45.000 would look for, you can find it here. Um. And 3:03:45.240 --> 3:03:47.600 that is that is the curious case of Nazi catboys. 3:03:47.760 --> 3:03:55.040 So there there you go. Any any questions, Class Garrison, 3:03:55.920 --> 3:03:57.880 why why did you do this to us? Because I 3:03:57.959 --> 3:04:02.240 thought it would be funny? It is on the on 3:04:02.360 --> 3:04:07.000 the inside, it's funny anyway, happy Well that is uh 3:04:07.160 --> 3:04:09.320 so yeah, Now I hope, I hope you all have 3:04:09.440 --> 3:04:13.000 a better look into why the fascist femboy meme exists 3:04:13.080 --> 3:04:15.760 and how people can have the cognitive distance in their 3:04:15.760 --> 3:04:19.400 own heads in terms of you know, fetishing, fetishizing feminine 3:04:19.440 --> 3:04:23.200 attributes while still hating women and then leading into the 3:04:23.320 --> 3:04:26.480 Nick Fuentez catboy craze that has swept the nation as 3:04:26.520 --> 3:04:31.080 a whole. So just okay, just just just be queer 3:04:31.440 --> 3:04:33.440 and a leftist. You don't have to do the ship. 3:04:33.520 --> 3:04:35.680 You do not have to wrap your brain in fucking 3:04:36.080 --> 3:04:41.400 seventeen layers of bullshit of like weird misogyny. You can 3:04:41.480 --> 3:04:45.760 just just be gay and a leftist and as as 3:04:45.879 --> 3:04:47.800 we as we showed you can, you can. You can 3:04:47.840 --> 3:04:50.600 be a leftist. You can love Stalin and be a catboy. 3:04:50.840 --> 3:04:53.880 It's totally fine. I think you can be anything and 3:04:54.000 --> 3:04:56.920 be a catboy. That's that's the main message of the 3:04:56.959 --> 3:05:00.320 twenty one century. Vladimir Putin is going to come out 3:05:00.400 --> 3:05:05.119 as a catboy when he releases his next unhinged rant 3:05:05.200 --> 3:05:09.440 and support of J. K Rowling. That's that's that's where 3:05:09.480 --> 3:05:12.080 the discourse is headed. It's inevitable, it can't be stopped. 3:05:13.000 --> 3:05:18.320 I wanted to be Nick Fintes and Vladimir Putin holds 3:05:18.400 --> 3:05:21.600 cans being a cat boy. All right, Well that's where 3:05:21.640 --> 3:05:23.640 we're going. That doesn't for us today, everybody. If you 3:05:23.680 --> 3:05:26.400 wanna follow the show, you can follow us on Twitter 3:05:26.440 --> 3:05:28.680 and Instagram, at happen here pod and cool Zone Media. 3:05:29.040 --> 3:05:35.080 You can follow my catboy posting at Hungry bow tie. Um, yeah, yeah, 3:05:35.680 --> 3:05:46.000 yeah Hey. We'll be back Monday with more episodes every 3:05:46.040 --> 3:05:48.240 week from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:05:48.840 --> 3:05:51.200 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:05:51.440 --> 3:05:54.119 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:05:54.160 --> 3:05:56.240 cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 3:05:56.320 --> 3:05:58.800 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 3:05:58.920 --> 3:06:01.680 listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could 3:06:01.680 --> 3:06:04.640 Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com 3:06:04.760 --> 3:06:06.600 slash sources. Thanks for listening.