1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,359 Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Robert Evans here and welcome 9 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: to it could happen here a podcast about how things 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,919 Speaker 1: are falling apart and how to maybe put them back together. Obviously, 11 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: the biggest story probably in the world right now is 12 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: the ongoing invasion of Ukraine. In a major corollarrea of 13 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: that story is how dramatically things in Russia have taken 14 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: a turn for the totalitarian um. The country has become 15 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: increasingly isolated from most of the global community. This is 16 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: due to a mix of sanctions to a lot of 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: businesses pulling out just because of the social consequences of 18 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: not doing so, uh end of policies that have been 19 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: put down by Putin's government in order to crack down 20 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: on dissent and further remove Russia from any kind of 21 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: contact with the West. UM. As a result, it's kind 22 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: of difficult to get in touch with people who are 23 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,919 Speaker 1: resisting Putin's government from within Russia. UM anarchist activists in particular, 24 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: UM are not easy people to reach. However, we did 25 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: recently sit down with one of these individuals and talk 26 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: to them, so this episode will both be an interview 27 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: with that person and a bit of history about the 28 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: anarchist movements within Russia. Russia has actually a very long 29 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: history of anarchist organizing. Two of them in generally considered 30 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: foundational thinkers and anarchists political theory. Mikhail Bakunin and Peter 31 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: Kropotkin were both born in Russia. Both lived and agitated 32 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: under the Tsars. Bakunan was an advocate and a major 33 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: theorist of political terrorism. He fled the country, was returned, 34 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: and ultimately spent like ten years in prison there. Kropotkin 35 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: was the author of a seminal anarcho munist text titled 36 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: The Conquest of Bread, and he was only able to 37 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 1: return to Russia after the nineteen seventeen Revolution. He died 38 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: there in nineteen twenty one. It's also worth noting that 39 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: Peter Kropotkin is canonically the ancestor to Tommy Pickles of 40 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: the rug Rats, but that's something you can look up 41 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: on your own now. While some of the most influential 42 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: anarchists in history were Russian and anarchist organizing was a 43 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: potent part of pre nineteen seventeen Russian political history, the 44 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: success of the Bolsheviks after nineteen seventeen led to the 45 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: movements near annihilation. Um Emma Goldman was yet another major anarchist, 46 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: activist and thinker who was born and educated in Russia. 47 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: She immigrated to the United States in eighteen eighty five, 48 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: where she promptly helped try to assassinate a steel magnate 49 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: in revenge for his brutality against striking workers. Goldman grew 50 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: to prominence as a labor activist and women's rights activist 51 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: in the last decade of the eighteen hundreds. In nineteen 52 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: o one, her work helped inspire Leon Chogosh to assassinate 53 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: President William McKinley. While Emma Goldman had no direct connection 54 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: to Chogash, she defended his actions by saying, as an anarchist, 55 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: I am opposed to violence, but if the people want 56 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: to do away with assassins. They must do away with 57 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: the conditions which produced murderers. There's much more to say 58 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: about him, Agoldman, but for our purposes, what matters is 59 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: that she was arrested for opposing the draft in World 60 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: War One and eventually deported back to Russia. Right after 61 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: the revolution. Goldman was initially psyched that the czars had 62 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: been deposed, but quickly became disillusioned by the violence of 63 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: the forming totalitarian Soviet state. She considered this a betrayal 64 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: of the revolution and wrote a series of articles for 65 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: The New York World that have gone down as one 66 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: of the first expose as of conditions in the Soviet Union. 67 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: Goldman's work was criticized by many left wing intellectuals outside 68 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: of Russia, but she was correct about political repression in 69 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: the new Bolshevik workers paradise. Matters did not improve for 70 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: anarchists in the first twenty years of the new regime. 71 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty seven, in his History of Anarchism in Russia, E. 72 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: Yorroslansky wrote, in the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, at 73 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: the present time, the anarchists no longer enjoy any influence 74 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: over the masses. They are met with only as isolated individualists. 75 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: The fall of the Soviet Union, the coming of democracy, 76 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: and the slow rise to power of Vladimir Putin did 77 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: not enormously alter this state of affairs. Russian anarchists still 78 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: exercise relatively little influence over the masses. Most of them 79 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: struggle towards autonomy as isolated individuals. In March of twenty 80 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: twenty two, in the third week of the Russian invasion 81 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: of Ukraine, I sat down with one of these people. 82 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: We had been chatting online through Reddit for a couple 83 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: of weeks, and the process of setting up a proper 84 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: audio interview was difficult. To say the least repression of 85 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: all political descent under Putin is extreme. More than thirteen 86 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: thousand people were arrested at anti war protests in the 87 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: first two weeks of the war, so you will understand 88 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: why our source was paranoid about his identity. I had 89 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: to download a secure app I'd never even heard of before, 90 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: and he only agreed to speak with me while using 91 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: a voice changing application to further disguise his identity. Due 92 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: to the difficulties this created, I will be paraphrasing him 93 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: and quoting his words myself at a couple of points 94 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: here in order to make listening to this a more 95 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: comfortable experience. But here he is okay, polytics or what 96 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: years or so it's bicycle and into weak two years ago. 97 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: Was so, just to make it clear, he's saying that 98 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: he's been involved in anarchist organizing for more than a 99 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: decade since around two thousand eleven. The initial cell he 100 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: organized with was affiliated with an umbrella organization called Autonomous Action. 101 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: We'll talk about them more in a minute, but it's 102 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: important you understand his cell, at about fifty people strong, 103 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: was considered quite large for Russia in Moscow inspects. I 104 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: guess in the artists in links whatever, or they were 105 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: worked for rent of course, and there were more or 106 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: I wasn't considered even in two thousand eleven, organizing as 107 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 1: an anarchist was rather risky. As a result, our source 108 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: actually started his career in activism on his own. As 109 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: a single protester. He would stand out in public places, 110 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: sometimes during other protests, sometimes on his own, holding a 111 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: sign that said in Russian peace to the world. Now 112 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: I'm reading you the English translation of what he put 113 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: the literal Russian words that he had on his sign 114 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: were a reference to a famous Soviet slogan officially adopted 115 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty one. The phrase actually has a much 116 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: older origin in the country, which begins under the Orthodox 117 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: Church and grew more popular among revolutionaries after the February Revolution. 118 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: The first leftist to use peace to the World as 119 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: a slogan in Russia may have actually been a f Krinsky, 120 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: who headed the brief democratic government that ran things after 121 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: the czar stepped down. In our sources case, his sign 122 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: was an act of protest against a number of things, 123 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: including the recent Russian invasion of Georgia and Russian military 124 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: operations in Syria. Oscar Pass questions against the stuff stuff 125 00:07:52,240 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: uh almost or Winter sent home. After he'd been seen 126 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: doing this for a while, members of a local anarchist 127 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: self found this person and started asking them questions, Hey, 128 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: who are you, what are you doing? What do you 129 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: think of this? And that he was not specific about 130 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: the individual political questions they answered, and we probably don't 131 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: need to get into that. They invited him eventually to 132 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: a building where a number of them tended to gather 133 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: and prepare for actions. In short order, they started organizing together. 134 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: At the time our source started organizing as an anarchist. 135 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 1: The most notorious recent action was the Kimki forest conflict. 136 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: In brief, Kimki is a forest with a long history 137 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: as in nature preserve. It's kind of outside of Moscow. 138 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: It's so densely forest that in the sixteen hundreds and 139 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: then in the early eighteen hundreds, when the Russians were 140 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: resisting Napoleon, it was used by partisans and insurgents as 141 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: a base of operations. When the Bolsheviks took over, it 142 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: was preserved to act as a sort of open air 143 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: therapy center for tuberculosis patients. In the early two thousands, 144 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: local city planners started to advocate for a toll road 145 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: to be built through the middle of the forest. Their 146 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: argument was that a large amount of traffic passed through 147 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: the Leningrad Highway and that had caused huge amounts of 148 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: air pollution in the city of Kimki. Since the forest 149 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: was protected by national environmental codes, turning it into a 150 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: road was a long political process. Activists protested, arguing that 151 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: it would be an environmental disaster which spoilers. It was 152 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: like anarchists in the United States in the period before 153 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: the Green Scare, Russian anarchists carried out a series of 154 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: occupation actions to try and protect the wild lands. So 155 00:09:51,720 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: it was ver it was against lance podcast or inflection, 156 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: oh fascists, the shield someone in the trains once in 157 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: the end, it was in two twelve, shortly after our 158 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: source began participating in anarchist demonstrations, the government carried out 159 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: a major crackdown against certain anarchist activists. They focused primarily 160 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: on groups and individuals who were doing things like making 161 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: Molotov cocktails and engaging in property destruction. Now our source 162 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: participated in food not bombs and other non aggressive types 163 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: of direct action, most of which involved handing out food 164 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: and supplies to people who are helping them to get resources. 165 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: He did not disavow insurrectionary anarchists the kind of people 166 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: who threw bombs, but that wasn't the kind of thing 167 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 1: he did, and he didn't have a lot of connections 168 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: with those people because roughly a year after he started 169 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: organizing as an anarchist, most of them in his area 170 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: at least got cracked down on and either killed, forced 171 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: out of the country, or arrested by the government. This 172 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: crackdown on insurrectionary Russian anarchists led to an even more 173 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: paranoid security culture. Among those who remained. Our source and 174 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: his comrades mostly distributed food, but they also provided support 175 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: for a large number of children whose families had abandoned 176 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: them due to crushing poverty. Even though these things were 177 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: not illegal, they had to maintain intense security culture to 178 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: avoid being part of future crackdowns. First, don't talk to 179 00:11:49,040 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: anyone or special companization. No, don't care, don't get them. 180 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: Infresition means no one. Long standing tradition among Russian anarchists 181 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: was a sort of defensive isolation. People gave each other 182 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: as little information as possible about their real identities. As 183 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: a result, despite the fact that he has participated in 184 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: multiple protests since the invasion of Ukraine and people have 185 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: been arrested at those protests, our source insists that he 186 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: doesn't know if any of his comrades have been taken 187 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: into custody. Now. Some of this probably has to do 188 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: with the fact that he's not organizing in a major city, um, 189 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: but a lot of it probably has to do with 190 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: the fact that he just doesn't particularly know any people 191 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: by name. Polls, which are imperfect but cannot be entirely 192 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: discounted suggest that most Russian civilians support the war and 193 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: their military. Even so, the scope and scale of the 194 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: anti war protests in Russia have beggared anything from recent memory. 195 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: Our source says that this has actually helped to mitigate 196 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: some of the despair you might expect Russian anarchists to feel, 197 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: given the Titanic increase in state repression. From what I 198 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: know from what I see, monitor uh Alsto came to 199 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: get to get help at last. An artists there if 200 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: maybe won't hear go or real they were just like, oh, 201 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: come on, we can do it all everything and we'll 202 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: just again the NFSP won't find us whatever. No, there 203 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: is no despair at last, we don't see it. There 204 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: are lots of action. There are lots of preparation from 205 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: what I understand, or not only artists, but all the 206 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: radical firms or gathering in Russia or in Moscow, in 207 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: Saint Aspera obviously because the most epicenter of everything there 208 00:13:52,040 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: not not on the ragons. I guess, oh yeah, soustraints. 209 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: So it's probably time that we talk about autonomous action 210 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: or a D. The Revolutionary Anarchist Federation that our friend 211 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: and his comrades are affiliated with a D actually has 212 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: members in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. It was founded in 213 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: two thousand two and briefly had affiliates in Armenia before 214 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: they disbanded in two thousand five. That's a story in 215 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: and of itself. A D advocates direct action in order 216 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: to quote create a tradition and basis for a new 217 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: humanist culture, social self organization and radical resistance against militarism, capitalism, sexism, 218 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: and fascism. They consider the existing government of Russia as 219 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,479 Speaker 1: entirely illegitimate. They refused to take part in Russian electoral politics, 220 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: seeing even left wing opposition parties as essentially controlled by 221 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: Putin and only existing to provide a sham vision of choice. 222 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: A D activists called themselves the Autonomy and see their 223 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: calling is twofold, to exist as autonomous, free individuals within 224 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: an unfree system and to spread revolutionary sentiment and weaken 225 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: the state. Much has been said in the West of 226 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: Alexei Navalny, a Russian opposition politician who, whatever else you 227 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: might say about him, is certainly not controlled opposition. He 228 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: has survived an assassination attempt by the Putin regime and 229 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: is currently incarcerated after leaving his exile in the West 230 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: to return to Russia and fight the sham case against 231 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: him in court. No one can doubt that Navalny possesses 232 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: significant physical courage, and it seems fair to say the 233 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: man believes in what he says, AIDI Activists, from what 234 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: I have seen, do not fault him in his willingness 235 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: to suffer for his beliefs, but they believe that he 236 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: is at the very least deeply misguided. Navalny, they say, 237 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: holds to a fundamentally errant belief that Russia could ever 238 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: be a parliamentary democracy in the Western tradition. Their argument 239 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: is that corruption, investigations and electoralism are useless in Russia 240 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: and always have been, and from a historical standpoint, it 241 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: is difficult to argue with these claims. Autonomous Action members 242 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: do not support the Ukrainian state, and I have read 243 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: articles from them where they describe the conflict in the 244 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: Dawn Bass, which simmered for eight years before exploding into 245 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: the current conflagration, as two fascist paramilitary forces backed by 246 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: two capitalist governments. However, they have been consistent for years 247 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: that the proper stance of Russian anarchists is to support 248 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian people against aggression from the Russian state. Before 249 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: Putin commenced his broader invasion. In February of this year, 250 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: Autonomous Action published an article with the title why we 251 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: should support Ukraine quote Putin is not just the gendarme 252 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: of Europe, but the gendarme of the whole world, from 253 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: Syria to Myanmar. Whenever a dictator tortures and kills thousands 254 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: of his old people, Putin is there to support him. 255 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: There are no elections in Russia anymore. Even the most 256 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: moderate attempts to change something results in criminal cases and persecutions. 257 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: I do not believe that the result of this yet 258 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: another round of threatening declarations and building up pressure, is 259 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: a full scale war, But as the conflict is not disappearing, 260 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: a full scale war may start after five to ten years, 261 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: even as a result of a cycle of escalation, even 262 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: if no one really wants it. And in case of 263 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,719 Speaker 1: a full scale war, we should be on the Ukrainian side. 264 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: As Mala Testa said, for me, there is no doubt 265 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: that the worst of democracies is always preferable, if only 266 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: from the educational point of view, then the best of 267 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: dictatorships neutrality and a war between Ukraine and Russia would 268 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: mean neutrality in an invasion of a democracy by a dictatorship. 269 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,959 Speaker 1: Now our source concurs with the extant evidence that Russian 270 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: citizens still broadly support the war. As I stated earlier, 271 00:17:49,160 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: nant attacking Russia with Nost don't know. He was certain 272 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that there's still a great deal of propaganda, 273 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: largely pro NATO propaganda on the anti war side of things. 274 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: Given the information situation within his country, he admitted that 275 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: he'd had difficulty parsing some things out, while acknowledging that 276 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: his side also lacked perfect information. He felt that their 277 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: stance against the war was safe because in the end 278 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: it opposed blood letting. We can claim on the kind 279 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: of waganda or the West are crowing, sam If even 280 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: if you're under some kind of waganda, even West Western 281 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: is basically a case as well, you're still of this 282 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: your side because you don't want to. He did admit 283 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: that a number of people in his life, family and 284 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: close friends, knew about his political sympathies, and he claims 285 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: that the outbreak of war are in the massive futalitarian 286 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: swing Putin has taken over the last month have caused 287 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: some of these people to be more open to his beliefs. 288 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: So I'm kind of open just on talking to one 289 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: w one of the people much pants. Oh my friends, 290 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: do you know what what kind of stuff what I'm 291 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: into or the war or the just came to me. However, personally, Hey, 292 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: you've been precurring for that, so for years you've been 293 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 1: telling us, hold us for years. I thought you BERNOI 294 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: and not understand. You're right, wander water. So we don't 295 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: have people know about what gives no the picture At 296 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: the moment. The political situation within Russia is tremendously uncertain. 297 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: All manner of dubious sources have claimed that a palace 298 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: coup is in the offering or has been attempted. Some 299 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: have even spoken of the possibility of a revolution, or 300 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: at least a massive protest campaign that forces Putin from office. 301 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: Our source did not consider that likely in the unlikely 302 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 1: event the government collapsed entirely. He was not particularly optimistic 303 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: about what might result. You mentioned the central Wist governments 304 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: and there is no they just just or oh, it's 305 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: a science. He mentioned me that a number of his 306 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: loved ones had come forward recently to ask what they 307 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: ought to do. I asked how he responded it to 308 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: that question. Right now, we try to organize and help 309 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: you all because there is a there is a chance 310 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: or currency local stuffing, and we'll just need to survive. 311 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: That's the first thing. Quick, So organization and interactions are 312 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: available than any currents or now for well, I see 313 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: it with the way. Uh. Second thing is that we 314 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: need to training or start. I guess there is there 315 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: is a term in English case the very weak don't 316 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: pour when you have all infrastructure. Basically, for now we 317 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: need to have from enough folding of water points we 318 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: all can train even with the form rooms people to 319 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: cularly mentioned the revolutionary importance of finding some way to 320 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: either smuggle or produce medical supplies and medications. He knows 321 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: one person who already had to flee the country because 322 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: his wife could no longer get the medicine she needed. 323 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: He mentioned the sanctions levied against Russia as a major 324 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 1: issue for regular working people, but when I asked what 325 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: he felt Western countries could do in this conflict, he 326 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: was actually quite focused on something else. Entirely. He believes 327 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: the United States has access to high quality satellite images 328 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: of what happened in the immediate lead up to the 329 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: Russian invasion of Ukraine. Putin's government justified much of their 330 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: invasion on so called attacks from the Ukrainian government that 331 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: they claim it escalated against the separatist regions. Our source 332 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: believes his government is lying about this law or point 333 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: many states, so here's the same thing, or yeah, we 334 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: need to cover of course it's been goin So it's 335 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: I don't believe that Ukraine or being with let's say, 336 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: let's a military power compared to Russia or not. So 337 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: she stuff yea, so we didn't need those things covered 338 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: published at least maybe not as long as possibly canst 339 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: still walking on would at least it's helpful people see 340 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: you get there are points queer from crom It's pretty good. 341 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: Since the invasion, it has gotten notably harder, but not 342 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: impossibly hard for Russian citizens to get information about the 343 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: conflict that does not come from the Kremlin. Our starts 344 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: explained how he does it a combination of using VPNs 345 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: and understanding the nature of authoritarian propaganda. In short, even 346 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: when the government is lying to you, you can get 347 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: an idea of what the truth is by understanding what 348 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: they want you to believe, work stuff, all sources, what 349 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: science I saw it, or Korean side, Russian side, great side. 350 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: Oh so find and staff as well. I don't really 351 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: believe me. Let's see firsts because they are past. They 352 00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: say what's goins? What's they're trying to contain to points? 353 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: Or if you have a say okay, let's put this one. Uh. 354 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: When Russian Ministry of Foreign offers selling or solution and 355 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: at the same time we hear all the Syrians, Syrian 356 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: or mercenaries are going to rail uh. For for me, 357 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: it means one thing they want to us Paul or 358 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: the pointing to get some time, so professional sources or 359 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: council racially. He felt that one way US activists could 360 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: be helpful to Russian activists was by continuing to document 361 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: and study the different munitions and tactics used by police 362 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: in cracking down on demonstrations. He noticed that Russian police 363 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: used similar and sometimes even the same weapons to the 364 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: ones that the US police used on out in protests. 365 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: He believes the documentation done to study these weapons is 366 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,479 Speaker 1: helpful to people all around the world. He expressed some 367 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: frustration at friends and colleagues of his who after years 368 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: of failing to truly grapple with the degree to which 369 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: Putin had centralized power. We're now fleeing Russia to avoid 370 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: living under an increasingly totalitarian state. A swampoint colleagues, I 371 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: guess of her radio whatever trying to support me like 372 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: stuff scoring along the sports Russians. Yes, if that's for him, 373 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: trying to blame him expence, And that's why against this, 374 00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 1: before against the commons, he has decided to stay and 375 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: to resist. While he has admitted to now studying martial 376 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: arts and military tactics, he did not have high hopes 377 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 1: for any kind of confrontation with the Russian state, and 378 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: as a generally peaceable person, he has decided that he 379 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: will continue to resist in the way that makes the 380 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: most sense to him, by helping people and providing them 381 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: with things that they will increasingly need. Is the economic 382 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: situation in Russia degrades further for me? How many people 383 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 1: most kind of since constant sense of that's for at 384 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: least six years or one. Uh. But then understood that 385 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: once a thing about archists and wish I call myself 386 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: and you before I call myself an larchists, then I 387 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: should make once a thing. Oh we need to before 388 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: it's all ah, welcome to it could happen here the 389 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: podcast where this Today I sit down with my buddy 390 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: Jake Hanrahan and we talk about Corsica Jake, are you 391 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: how's the showy? How you how you feeling? Yeah, I'm 392 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: all right. Thanks. I got a bit of a flu, 393 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: but otherwise everything's really good. One Yeah, um, we you 394 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: just took a little reporting trip um down to the 395 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: island of corsica Um, which is not a place I 396 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: know much about, and I'm going to guess not a 397 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: place most of our listeners know much about. So why 398 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: don't you Why don't you start with kind of like 399 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: what what brought you down there? Yeah? No, it's a 400 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: really good point. A lot of people don't even know 401 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: it exists. I sent the documentary made Um with Pular 402 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: Front to a friend of mine today and he said, brother, 403 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: that's the first time I've ever heard of Coursico. Like, 404 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't know about It's so it's 405 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,479 Speaker 1: a very old island, um. You know, in more than 406 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: two hundred years people have inhabited the place, but generally 407 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: for the last kind of two hundred years there's been 408 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: an on again, off again independence movement. They're people that 409 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: don't want to be under the control of France or whoever. 410 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: They want control of their own island. Because Corsican is 411 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: quite a specific culture. Um, it's very different to French culture, 412 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: it's different to Italian culture. They even have their own 413 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: language called course. Unfortunately, it's kind of dying out, as 414 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of languages do in kind of 415 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: contested areas if you like. Um. But yeah, so so 416 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: they've always kind of wanted to be independent in some way. 417 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: Not everybody, not the whole place. I'm sure you'll find 418 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: some course because that will say their course of Confrench. 419 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,479 Speaker 1: But generally the majority of people if you go there 420 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: and say, well are you there to are you with Corsican? 421 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: We're not French with Corsican. So in the nineties seventies, 422 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: that kind of coalesced was rebirthed, if you like, with 423 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,719 Speaker 1: the backdrop of you know, guns, bombs and independence movements 424 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: of course Europe and a group called the f l 425 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: n C formed the Nationalist Liberation Front for Corsica and 426 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: they arrived with twenty one bombs on the island in 427 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: one night. I mean not arrived, you know, they were 428 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: already there, of course, but they bombed twenty one times 429 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: in one night, mostly French infrastructure, and they were all 430 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: very very well armed. There was literally hundreds of members 431 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: and at one point I have to I don't want 432 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: to say this because it's been a while since I 433 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: looked at the research, but if I'm right, at one 434 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: point in the in the late seventies or early eighties, 435 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: the Effllency was actually the most active militant or terrorist 436 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: group in the whole of Europe, even even more active 437 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: than the provision i RA now privileged IRA called a 438 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: lot more people the FLNC. Their targets weren't really to 439 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: kill people. They were to blow up holiday homes and 440 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: blow up French infrastructure. They didn't have open gun battles, 441 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: and they did assassinate the the highest ranking French officer 442 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: on Corsica on the island eventually. But yeah, so so 443 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: there was this real backdrop of very militant um independence. 444 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: When I say nationalists, it's not it's not what we 445 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: might associate with like far right nationalists. You know, when 446 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: an independent movement doesn't have its own country, you know, 447 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: the ultra nationalism in their sense comes out in a 448 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: very different way. It's not we want to ban everybody 449 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: else from here. It's simply we want our country, you 450 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: know what I mean. So when I say ultra nationalists, 451 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: that's not to be confused with fascist ultra nationalist. It's 452 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: very different. Not to say that couskins all believe in 453 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: in leftist causes and that that wouldn't be true. A 454 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: lot of them do. There's a big socialist element to 455 00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: to the cause, and there's also quite a right we 456 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: element to the cause. But ultimately they all kind of 457 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: want the same thing, autonomy or independence of Corsica. So yeah, 458 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: So that that's the kind of history very briefly of 459 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: militant independence movements in Corsica. FLNC put down their guns 460 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: and recently one of the fln C was suspected FLNC 461 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: militants who shot this this high ranking French official that 462 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: I told you about. Um this this guy is called 463 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: Evan Colina. He was arrested m after the shooting in 464 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: the nineties and sent to a French prison for life. 465 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: And on March the sixth, I believe it was, he 466 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: was no very much. Second, he was attacked in a 467 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: French prison by a Jahadic inmate and beaten into a 468 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: coma yesterday or two days ago. Now he died of 469 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: his injuries. Ever since he was beaten into this comma, 470 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: the youth would just kind of lit the place on fire, 471 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: you know. They were really clashing very violently. And for 472 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: for the last kind of seven years, since there was 473 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: as a was a relative calm on the island in 474 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: terms of collectivism and militancy. The politicians, the more moderate 475 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: parties have tried to do this politically and for the 476 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: first time in a while, the youth have gone, no, 477 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,239 Speaker 1: fuck it, We're not playing that anymore. We're we're going 478 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: to knock the place about. We're going to smash the 479 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: shop up. And basically it's kind of worked, which we 480 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: can go into. But yeah, so sorry to go on 481 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: a lot, but there's quite a lot to it because obviously, 482 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: like you said, a lot of people don't know. But 483 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: one thing I always say is courtA is just one 484 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: of the most beautiful places anybody will go to. Like objectively, 485 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: it's idyllic. It's not really had this horrible holiday home 486 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: vibe there because genuinely, when when some contractors tried to 487 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: kind of gentrify a course to come and turn it 488 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: into the next ib through. I believe one of the 489 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: quotes was from one of the people doing this. The 490 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: f l n C kind of waited for them to 491 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: build their homes and then blew them all up and 492 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: blew up all their hotels. So it was like they're like, 493 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: you're not going to do that here. A lot of 494 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: these companies were infringing on the environment, which is beautiful there. 495 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: And yeah, so there's a lot more to it, but generally, 496 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: you know, this all kind of revolves around militant independence. Yeah, 497 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: that's interesting. I mean, I I I think it's fascinating 498 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: the idea of targeting, like the degree to which a 499 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: lot of this seems to be focused on stopping this 500 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: place from turning into another vacation destination or like rich 501 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: people's second homes push out the population that's born there. Um. 502 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of places that, like, uh, 503 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: organizer complain about that sort of thing. Um, But I'm 504 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: not aware of anyone who's gone to these kind of 505 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: lengths to stop themselves from turning into another a visa. Yeah. Yeah, 506 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: And honestly, if you go to Corsica and see how 507 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: beautiful it is, not just I mean, it's one of 508 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: the few places in Europe where you can see the 509 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: mountains from the beach. You know, it's the incredible island. 510 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,479 Speaker 1: I've been obsessed with this place since I was about 511 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: twenty four years old, firstly from the nature and the 512 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: beauty there, but secondly I was very interested in the 513 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: militant group there, um because the culture there was so different. 514 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: But yeah, if you look at the place, you go 515 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: there and you realize, like, right, this place is very 516 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: much worth preserving. I don't want to act like there 517 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 1: hasn't been businesses doing their thing there. There definitely is, 518 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: but certainly it feels preserved. There's no high rises. All 519 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 1: of the old buildings are still there and they're still intact. 520 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: And you know when when these big businesses came in 521 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: and a lot of these businessmen were almost showing off 522 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: like yeah, we're gonna turn course of Carns waib Etha, 523 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: which as a brit Um I would apologize to anyone 524 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: living inever, you know, like having sex in the street 525 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: and throwing up at bars and everything. Here you go there, Um, 526 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of been turned into one big not the 527 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: great club, yeah yeah, not the great club definitely. Yeah. 528 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: So so you know, it's it's one of these ones 529 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 1: where it's like I could kind of understand. I'm not 530 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 1: saying anyone should bomb anywhere, certainly not, but I do 531 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: understand the sentiment there. And one of the one of 532 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,959 Speaker 1: my course and friends said, um, some people were calling 533 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: it like the cold bed policy. So you come to 534 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: our island, you buy a holiday home, and if you 535 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: leave that bed cold as in you're not even living here, 536 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: it's going to get blown up, you know if you like. So. 537 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: Very militant, very violent, but effective. I mean, it doesn't 538 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: mean that you have to agree with it, but no 539 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: one can deny that it hasn't been effective. But at 540 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: the same time, there's a very big mafia presence on 541 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: the island as well, so that you know, it's not 542 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: to say that everything is all for the people. I'm 543 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 1: going to guess that the mafia is more or less 544 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: on the side of, you know, turn this place into 545 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: a vacation destination because that's where the money is. That 546 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: that would be my essentially. Really that's interesting. No, so 547 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 1: the unfortunately the independence movement, not all of them, but 548 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 1: there is an element to it that is very hand 549 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: in hand with the mafia. Most definitely. Perhaps some people 550 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: that were independent militants are now mafia if you like. Um, 551 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: and people have been killed on the island quite a lot. 552 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: There's quite a lot of you know, unsold of murders 553 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: that it's quite sad um. But no, they they were 554 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: more for keeping their own interests. You know, Um, we 555 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 1: have this island, we can run the docks, we can 556 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: run this, we can run that. And whilst what you 557 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: said like makes sense, right, you would think, oh, no, 558 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: they'd be for this money. I think what they want. 559 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: They're still nationalists. At the end of the day. They 560 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: won't control, but they won't control in their own way. 561 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: And the big business comes in and start saying, oh, yeah, 562 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: we're doing this and that and the other, and we're 563 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: bringing all these people in by the docks. I guess 564 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: they lose control of that essentially. So they were very 565 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: much on the side of yeah, do what you like 566 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and I think fascinating, so very unique, 567 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: very specific place. You mentioned that this action you shut 568 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: up for people bombed twenty one targets in one night. 569 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: In one night. Yeah, when you say bomb, are we 570 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,399 Speaker 1: talking like your standard malatabs or were they are? Were 571 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: they kind of like more elaborate devices. Shall we say, 572 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,040 Speaker 1: how would you describe what they were using? Yeah, a 573 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 1: good question. I mean when you think of twenty one 574 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 1: in one night, you think, right like monotor small night, 575 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: something simple. Yeah, yeah, no, No, there weren't even pipe wombs. 576 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: You're talking fertilizer bombs. Yeah, like blowing the whole buildings, 577 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, not all of them, you know, there were 578 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: some smaller ones, but some very significant ones um and 579 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: very very big. The way of Corsica is the way 580 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: it's laid out. Like I said, it's a small place. 581 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: I think currently like three people lived there roughly, and 582 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: there were mountains, there were beaches, there were very rural communities, 583 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 1: eight's and islands. It's quite far away from France, actually, 584 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: it's very close to Italy um and Sardinia is just 585 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: to it south. And it's just for them. If you 586 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: were you couldn't ask for a better location, if you 587 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: wanted to be a kind of guerrilla group, you know, 588 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: you really couldn't. It's kind of built for them. So 589 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,240 Speaker 1: they just got away with it, you know, farmers whatever, 590 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: they went into the mountains, build bombs dropped them off. 591 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: And not to say that everybody was for them, but 592 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: there is some It wasn't just we want independence, there 593 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: was there was subjugation by the French. You know. Firstly, 594 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: they're like, we don't want to be a French colony 595 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: or whatever you would call it anymore, which I think 596 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: anybody that wants their determination to not be held by 597 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: our former colonial power, it's fine, or current colonial power 598 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 1: if you like, I think, yeah, fair play to them. 599 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: But secondly, they're one of the most poorer regions, despite 600 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: having all this holiday stuff, despite having a lot of produce, 601 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: despite having a lot of reasons to be there. So 602 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: there's definitely something. I won't claim to know too much 603 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: about the law situation, and I'm sure a lot of 604 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: French people get angry whatever, but it is genuinely doing 605 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: very badly in many different aspects. Is that mismanagement by them? 606 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: Is it because of the French? I couldn't tell you. 607 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 1: I don't know enough about it, but I certainly find 608 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: it very weird that all of these beautiful things that 609 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: happened on the island and they're they're constantly in you know, 610 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,839 Speaker 1: the lower bracket of situations economically, culturally, they're getting kind 611 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: of sidelined a bit so I do. I do understand, 612 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: and certainly when the clashes or even protests happen in 613 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,280 Speaker 1: the seventies, the police, you know, French police. I'm sorry, 614 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: but there's some of the worst fucking police ever, you know. 615 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: And I've been in front of Turkish police, like French 616 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: police are fucking up there. They're horrible, and they beat 617 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: the ship out of a lot of people in Cortica 618 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: just for peacefully protesting, you know. So it didn't come 619 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: from nowhere, you know what I mean? There is there 620 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: is more to it than just nationalism and independence. There's 621 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 1: a lot more to it. They wanna, they want to 622 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: they want to deal with their own affairs, a lot 623 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: of them, you know, most people probably now want to 624 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,439 Speaker 1: do it democratically. But like I said, the youth were said, 625 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 1: no funk, that we're not getting anywhere, and they've Actually 626 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: it's actually worked because the day after the riots that 627 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: we filmed on March thirteen, the Interior Minister of France 628 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: basically said, right, we're willing to discuss this with you. 629 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: We will go as far as autonomy. That's literally a 630 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: quote he said, which is quite significant. Yeah, after seven 631 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: years of basically stalemate through the politicians. So the youth 632 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: in a way, one of the very few examples of this, 633 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,760 Speaker 1: specifically in Europe, the youth, what they're doing kind of worked, 634 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like directly action got got 635 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: some goods, started the process of getting the goods hopefully. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, 636 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: it has. And the thing about the course scan youth 637 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: is they're very intelligent, they're very they're very authentic in 638 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: their political activism in the sense of it's just they're 639 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: born into it. It's in them, you know, from the 640 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: age of like twelve thirteen, they're understanding it. They're getting 641 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: told about the legends of blah blah, you know, um, 642 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 1: there's there's militant group and whatever whatever. So there's very 643 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: much in them in that sense, kind of in a 644 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: you know, like the Kurds are kind of you know, 645 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: not on the same level, but that kind of vibe. 646 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: So when they go to students, when they go to 647 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: UNI and they become students, they're not really forming their 648 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 1: political opinions. They already have them, they already got them, 649 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: and then they they sort of higher, they sort of 650 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: germinate together. So that's from what I understood anyway, that's 651 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 1: from what I gathered and you know, your average trendy 652 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: young man and woman on the street there is very political. 653 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 1: It's kind of like Greece in that sense, like it's 654 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: cool to be political, but in the sense of not 655 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: the kind not like um, you know, not not something 656 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: you brought into as a teenager, something that was already 657 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,320 Speaker 1: there and then which which there is nothing wrong with it. 658 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: You know, most people fall in their political opinions in 659 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: unis or whatever, but for them, it's already in there, 660 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: you see what I'm saying. So they already have they're 661 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: already united in that sense, you know. So when they 662 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: get to the UNI, they get there it's like, okay, 663 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: well we all want independence or autonomy, but then the 664 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 1: other things are lesser, so you know, for that in 665 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: that really, in that sense, I think that was quite interesting. 666 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: And we saw eight thousand, nine thousand people marching maybe 667 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: and then when the clashes started, you know, it is well, 668 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: but like normally it's like what a hundred three people 669 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 1: stay talking, like two thousand people help clashing, and men 670 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,919 Speaker 1: and women like young girls, young men, like many many, 671 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: you know, So it was really I was like, wow, okay, 672 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: and one one thing that I've never I have seen 673 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: for a very long time. I've very rarely seen it. Normally, 674 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 1: when the clash happens, everybody, you know, your grandma's, you're 675 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: working man, you know, the people that support what's going 676 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 1: on but are not able to clash or don't want 677 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: to clash, they normally step back. In the Coursicum protests, 678 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 1: everybody just stayed like we were getting tear gas next 679 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 1: to like fifty lads with balaclabas on, next to like 680 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: grandma or auntie, you know, and we're like helping people 681 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,879 Speaker 1: into the side street to get away from tear gas. 682 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: It's very weird. They just didn't leave. They just were 683 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: there the whole time. It's weird when you're talking about 684 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: like tactically, what is this, How are these kind of 685 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,360 Speaker 1: bombings being pulled off? As so you've got like this 686 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 1: huge crowd and they're just kind of like marching from 687 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: target to target. Um. So the youth are not really 688 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: I mean, they have some small kind of I D 689 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,839 Speaker 1: s you know what I'm saying, that youth student youth protesters, 690 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 1: but generally it's Molotov's bricks, burning barricades. But they very 691 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: clearly know the island inside out. They know their streets, 692 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: you know, obviously because they lived there. And most of 693 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 1: the police, from what I understand, are actually French called 694 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: in from the island, from the mainland, sorry to the island. 695 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: A lot of the CRS riot police, thousands of them 696 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,800 Speaker 1: were brought in. There was that they were actually completely outnumbered. 697 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,239 Speaker 1: They had to retreat at one point in in the 698 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: evening to go back to the prefecture kind of cultural 699 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: French administrative building where the main the main target of 700 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,960 Speaker 1: violence was. They had to retreat to get more ammunition 701 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 1: because they just they just shot so much tiggas um. 702 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 1: They just couldn't, you know, they couldn't do anything. There 703 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: were some teams, like the youth. Some of them had 704 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: green arm bands or green leg bands, so they were 705 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: very clearly like a different unit, and they were very 706 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: well organized. They didn't have walkie talkies, mind you normally 707 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: that that shows a closer sign of organization. But some 708 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: of them were like that. Some of them were just 709 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 1: turned up to fight, and some of them were splitting 710 00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: off into different groups. You would see one come in, 711 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: they'd fight, fight, fight, and then they'd leave and as 712 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,359 Speaker 1: they're leaving, another load would just come in the line. 713 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: It was. It was really quite interesting. You know, they'd 714 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: really thought about it. Um, it wasn't just a free 715 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: for all, which it might look like. But you know, 716 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,400 Speaker 1: after a while of covering riots, there's certain things you 717 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 1: notice where you're like, Okay, they're planning this, they're planning that, 718 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So it's quite interesting in 719 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: that sense. Um, but yeah, man, it's yeah, thousands of 720 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 1: thousands of youth fighting. Um, it did get messy. I 721 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: think forty four police were injured, thirteen protesters and one pedestrian. 722 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: That was the official figures. I saw at least three 723 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 1: pedestrians injured, and I think probably more protesters and definitely 724 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,279 Speaker 1: more cops, I would say. Yeah. I mean, obviously it 725 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,840 Speaker 1: also depends on like what you're raiding as an injury 726 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: for that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah, And a lot 727 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,919 Speaker 1: of folks probably are avoiding the hospitals and being dealt 728 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 1: with at homes and whatnot because they were committing some crimes. Yeah, 729 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,319 Speaker 1: just like you know, at home with superglue in seat 730 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,959 Speaker 1: of stitches or whatever. Yeah. Do you have a sense 731 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: of like how long? But the kind of the back 732 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,399 Speaker 1: end of this was the preparation process was for this. Yeah, 733 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 1: so the classes have been ongoing before we got there 734 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: for about a week. So even Colinar was beaten into 735 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: this coma. He was he was attacked in prison. There's 736 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,920 Speaker 1: some rumors that he said some kind of Islamophobic thing 737 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,239 Speaker 1: to the inmate, and don't know how true that is, 738 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,759 Speaker 1: but all we know is the guy was actually, you know, 739 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 1: convicted jahadist. It's not kind of hear say that the 740 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,600 Speaker 1: guy the inmate was a convicted jahadist because obviously even 741 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,680 Speaker 1: Colinar is in the type of prison where what the 742 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,839 Speaker 1: state says is terrorists are there, you know what I mean, 743 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: anybody terrorists is there, So it makes sense he's amongst 744 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: these people. And I think he was attacked in the 745 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 1: gym when he was on his own and he was strangled, 746 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 1: and this this is where yeah, yeah, this is where 747 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:53,480 Speaker 1: there's a weird point of contention. He because of the 748 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: special status he had as such a violent militant or whatever, 749 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:00,840 Speaker 1: he shouldn't have really been in on his own like that. 750 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: And some people were speculating did something happen, But generally 751 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,240 Speaker 1: most people we spoke to were like it was probably 752 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,200 Speaker 1: just negligence, you know, They weren't very conspiratory. There was 753 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,840 Speaker 1: someone like, oh the French, the French plan is I 754 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 1: doubt it. It doesn't make much sense to do this 755 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: right now, Like you know, they would knew what would 756 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: happen to be on calling to the people. Sorry if 757 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:23,799 Speaker 1: he've on Colling. I was hurt because he's a big 758 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: you know, a big name there. There's also some you know, 759 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,720 Speaker 1: maybe interesting arguments around the case, the way he was arrested. 760 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,800 Speaker 1: Apparently the gun doesn't match up. I don't know. I 761 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,759 Speaker 1: didn't really get into that, but either way, he's like 762 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 1: a you know, people they love him, you know what 763 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,040 Speaker 1: I'm saying. He's like a matter for them, even though 764 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: you know, he shot this guy in the back in 765 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: in cold blood essentially, but for them that was a 766 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: political assassination whatever. So so for about a week, the 767 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,280 Speaker 1: youth were fighting, and I saw a video and anything 768 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 1: that happens in course, I'm like, right, I'm looking at it, 769 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:58,719 Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, this this is a little 770 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: bit different. Okay, molotovs are out again. Hasn't haven't seen 771 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:03,800 Speaker 1: that for a while. And then the next day and 772 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:05,719 Speaker 1: then the next day, and then it spread one night 773 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,800 Speaker 1: to like five different cities or like sorry, three different cities, 774 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,840 Speaker 1: like big, big places, and then they burned like a 775 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,840 Speaker 1: very specific monument, so that was like, oh it's on. 776 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 1: So for at least a week they were they were 777 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,600 Speaker 1: planning something, you know, and there was enough kind of 778 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,320 Speaker 1: um momentum there, I think for them to organize. Certainly, 779 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,879 Speaker 1: we know that there was people from a jat CEO 780 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,960 Speaker 1: of the capital city in Bastia where we filmed it, 781 00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,600 Speaker 1: like a lot of people drove in, they came you know, 782 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 1: specifically for this clash, so that was quite interesting. I 783 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: think the youth movement have a very strong network there, 784 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,560 Speaker 1: and there's also quite a big football ultra scene there. 785 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 1: So the day before the clashes, Bastia and the JATSO 786 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,640 Speaker 1: had a derby. So obviously I imagine a lot of 787 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,440 Speaker 1: the ultras, or at least I know a lot of 788 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,480 Speaker 1: the ultras were also part of the independence groupings and 789 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,640 Speaker 1: part of the clashes, so I imagine that a lot 790 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 1: of the football ultras kind of organized you know, you know, 791 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,720 Speaker 1: the match the day before or at least a week before, 792 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,080 Speaker 1: so I think there was quite a lot of organization there. 793 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 1: You know, what do you feel like is next? Is 794 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,480 Speaker 1: this the case? Do you get the sense that because 795 00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: the government has announced their willingness to sit down and talk, 796 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,839 Speaker 1: that maybe folks are going to wait to follow up 797 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,520 Speaker 1: this or do you get the sense that they're going 798 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:28,960 Speaker 1: to kind of keep the pressure on. Well, the thing is, 799 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:34,640 Speaker 1: there was one option before Evan Colonard died, and now 800 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:36,520 Speaker 1: there's a new option that he's died. You see what 801 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:41,000 Speaker 1: I'm saying. Before, I think what you're saying would have 802 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: would have happened, like I mean, I don't know, but 803 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: I think that youth would have they would have held 804 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,880 Speaker 1: off the fact that the Interior Minister of France, who 805 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 1: answers directly to mcron within one day or less than 806 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,120 Speaker 1: one day, said we're willing to go as far as 807 00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,440 Speaker 1: autonomy in these discussions. Stop being violent. I think the 808 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,360 Speaker 1: youth was smart enough to realize, all right, let's stop, 809 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 1: let's see what he's got to say. I'm sure if 810 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,879 Speaker 1: things faltered, if things didn't move quick enough, they would 811 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,560 Speaker 1: have very quickly stepped up the stepped up the violence again. However, 812 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,960 Speaker 1: now that even Colin has died, I don't think that 813 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,200 Speaker 1: they're just gonna wait now. From what I understand from 814 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,480 Speaker 1: speaking to contacts and friends in Corsica. There's a period 815 00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,919 Speaker 1: of mourning right now. You know his funeral. He died 816 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,840 Speaker 1: in a prison in Marseille. He wasn't even transferred to 817 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,520 Speaker 1: to Corsica to die, So for a lot of them, 818 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:36,240 Speaker 1: that's incredibly offensive. That's the kind of spark that started 819 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,319 Speaker 1: these clashes. It's all about independence and autonomy on one level, 820 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 1: but the thing that drove this and sparked it was 821 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,279 Speaker 1: even Colonize attack, and and the fact that there's a 822 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,720 Speaker 1: lot of course cam prison prisoners, which are political prisoners, 823 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,680 Speaker 1: are in prison in Frances at the Corsica anyway. So 824 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,480 Speaker 1: now that he has died, I really think that there 825 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,080 Speaker 1: will be a moment of calm due to the funeral 826 00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 1: and respect for even Colin arm whatever. Then I think 827 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,160 Speaker 1: maybe a week after this week, I think it's almost 828 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,240 Speaker 1: inevitable that we will see some form of violence again. 829 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,520 Speaker 1: I've spoken to some people that are maybe going a 830 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:12,800 Speaker 1: bit far, maybe being a bit dramatic. I don't know, 831 00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:14,839 Speaker 1: but they speculate that there will be a little bit 832 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,919 Speaker 1: more than just clashes. One one person I know said, 833 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 1: I think they're going to blow something up again. Do 834 00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,080 Speaker 1: I think that, probably not, But certainly when we were 835 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,560 Speaker 1: in the streets they were using. There's there's photos of 836 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: it as well. They were using very crude but very small, 837 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:34,239 Speaker 1: improvised explosive devices. Now, when a group even starts to 838 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,800 Speaker 1: do that, you know, okay, it's a very small device. 839 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,239 Speaker 1: It was in a kind of like a basically a 840 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,600 Speaker 1: tennis ball type thing with it with whatever in it. 841 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,120 Speaker 1: But it was fucking loud. It wouldn't really do much 842 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,040 Speaker 1: unless it probably blow up right next to your foot. 843 00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,279 Speaker 1: But when they're even considering that, in my experience, that 844 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,719 Speaker 1: tells you that people are there's an element that are 845 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,279 Speaker 1: ready to go further up the ladder to the next level. 846 00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,520 Speaker 1: Does that mean they're going to blow somewhere up. I 847 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,919 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't see it personally. You know, these 848 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,719 Speaker 1: these young people are very clever. I think that would 849 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,279 Speaker 1: be in an insane decision because it would France would 850 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,480 Speaker 1: have no option but to basically flood the island with 851 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,520 Speaker 1: a lot more police and maybe even military type police. 852 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe not, but but yeah, anyway, we'll 853 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,520 Speaker 1: see what happens. But again, my point is not not 854 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:21,279 Speaker 1: that I think this is gonna happen, But there's that 855 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,880 Speaker 1: talk which we haven't seen that kind of talk in 856 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,000 Speaker 1: Corsica for quite a while, you know what I mean, 857 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,440 Speaker 1: And there's actually people now genuinely worried like Okay, where's 858 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,080 Speaker 1: this going to go? Which can never be a good thing. 859 00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:35,480 Speaker 1: I guess the French state really has to be careful here, 860 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:40,239 Speaker 1: and I think the fact they've now said we're gonna 861 00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,520 Speaker 1: go as far as autonomy, maybe they at the very 862 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,880 Speaker 1: least have to be shown to be doing that very quickly. 863 00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,359 Speaker 1: I think, you know. Otherwise, for a lot of people 864 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,839 Speaker 1: in Corsica, it's like even Colin Colinar died in Vain, 865 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,240 Speaker 1: I guess, and it's not just the youth, it's everybody, 866 00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,839 Speaker 1: even people that perhaps really don't like that the youth 867 00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,759 Speaker 1: were fighting, really don't support that level of violence. They 868 00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,560 Speaker 1: still support Evan Coliner and a very sad he's dead, 869 00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,399 Speaker 1: you see what I'm saying, and the way he died, 870 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:13,520 Speaker 1: And even even past DNFC, the football team and one 871 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,839 Speaker 1: of the main football teams in Courtsco, they said, are 872 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, we're very sad that he's dead. You know, 873 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,560 Speaker 1: hero has died that kind of thing, so he's a 874 00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,960 Speaker 1: very He's seen as a Martineau definitely, Yeah, I mean 875 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:30,600 Speaker 1: that's a predictable outcome from killing the guys in prison. Um, right, right, right, right, 876 00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,879 Speaker 1: So we're kind of in this like waiting to see 877 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,320 Speaker 1: what the next step is. Then I guess, like the 878 00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,560 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of this weird sort of like political 879 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:44,040 Speaker 1: liminal space. I guess where the next steps are. There's 880 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:49,840 Speaker 1: a number of things that could happen. Um, yeah, definitely, 881 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:55,200 Speaker 1: it's this very everything's in transition. It's it's very it's 882 00:53:55,440 --> 00:54:00,279 Speaker 1: it's either calm before the storm, or it's calm that 883 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:05,520 Speaker 1: turns into something positive. But I I just don't see, 884 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 1: you know, after almost two weeks of extremely violent clashes, 885 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,399 Speaker 1: very well organized, after seeing them on the ground as well, 886 00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:16,920 Speaker 1: these are brave lads, these and women as well. These 887 00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,560 Speaker 1: are not your kind of average weekend warriors. They're very, 888 00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,120 Speaker 1: very up for it. Um you know how people clash 889 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,000 Speaker 1: in Paris, like French people, they're very up. As soon 890 00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,920 Speaker 1: as final they'll fight, you know. Um, it's like that 891 00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,799 Speaker 1: times ten for from what I experienced, because it's got 892 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:39,680 Speaker 1: the the kind of incubated nationalist identity separate from France, 893 00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,960 Speaker 1: but whilst also having kind of fiery French culture and 894 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:48,680 Speaker 1: fiery Italian culture influences and fiery Corsican culture. Um not 895 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,840 Speaker 1: to say that they're not very nice people. Everyone was 896 00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,839 Speaker 1: absolutely lovely, very very friendly, but you can tell they're 897 00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,160 Speaker 1: you know, there are fiery people. They're active, they're about it, 898 00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,840 Speaker 1: they mean what they say. So I don't think that 899 00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,360 Speaker 1: the youth will just go quietly from this essentially a 900 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:07,160 Speaker 1: political prisoner m A. Martin now and then for them 901 00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,560 Speaker 1: to just go, Okay, we'll just relax now. I don't 902 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:12,560 Speaker 1: see it. You go. You're talking from like you know, 903 00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,520 Speaker 1: probably in the full week of clashes, maybe four or 904 00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:21,799 Speaker 1: five thousand people together throwing rocks, burning barricades, throwing small 905 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,640 Speaker 1: improvised devices at cops, to then just to go to 906 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,480 Speaker 1: nothing after even Colonarde dies, I would be very very surprised. 907 00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:30,759 Speaker 1: I think the only way that that would happen would 908 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,440 Speaker 1: be for France to go, okay, here's your autonomy, and 909 00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,560 Speaker 1: then that energy could be turned into a celebration. What 910 00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:38,640 Speaker 1: I'm saying that should or shouldn't happen. I just think 911 00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,800 Speaker 1: theoretically that's the only way that it could avoid violence, 912 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:43,959 Speaker 1: because the energy is there. Now, you see what I'm saying, 913 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,919 Speaker 1: not on like an essterry level, it's just the level 914 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,040 Speaker 1: of like they're revved up, they're ready, you know, in 915 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,920 Speaker 1: the attitude, the kind of it's in the air. It's 916 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,120 Speaker 1: in the air right now. So you published just a 917 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,160 Speaker 1: couple of days ago, your a little documentary like short 918 00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:01,719 Speaker 1: documentary from Popular Front which footage a little dispatch which 919 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,960 Speaker 1: has footage from this um, which people should definitely check out, 920 00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,520 Speaker 1: especially if they'd like to see some of the tactics 921 00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,160 Speaker 1: that we've talked about UM on this this episode so far. 922 00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:13,480 Speaker 1: Is there anywhere else you might recommend they go for 923 00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,880 Speaker 1: further reading on this subject UM not not to be um, 924 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,200 Speaker 1: oh you're only Popular front um, but we we have. 925 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:25,040 Speaker 1: It's just something that I've just been specifically fascinating and 926 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,239 Speaker 1: obsessed with for a long time. So when the time came, 927 00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,480 Speaker 1: I was very well prepared. Everyone has said like, oh, 928 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:33,719 Speaker 1: you know, this is this is crazy, like, you know, 929 00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,120 Speaker 1: how did you understand all of this so quickly, because 930 00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,200 Speaker 1: I've been reading about it and and the problem with 931 00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,279 Speaker 1: a lot of the French reporting is, you know, it's 932 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:45,240 Speaker 1: it's naturally very fresh, skewed. It's a little bit sneary, 933 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,360 Speaker 1: like all the island people are kicking off again, whereas 934 00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,719 Speaker 1: it's like, no, come on like this, it's an incredible, 935 00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,239 Speaker 1: beautiful place. Of course they want to preserve it. Of 936 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,880 Speaker 1: course they want to control it in whatever way they 937 00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,839 Speaker 1: want to. So again it's very difficult, but I will 938 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,959 Speaker 1: say that there are some really good reporters um there. 939 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:08,000 Speaker 1: There's a a friend of mine from Corsica, Lionel Doomus. 940 00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,920 Speaker 1: He runs like a thing called um Corsican passport or 941 00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:15,120 Speaker 1: were used to, which was kind of kind of humorous 942 00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,120 Speaker 1: but at the same time in our news about kind 943 00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:22,160 Speaker 1: of course and related um patriotic stuff. And then who 944 00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:26,760 Speaker 1: we worked with, Jean Colinar. He's not related to m Yvonne. 945 00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,640 Speaker 1: Like it's it's quite a you know, common COmON last name, 946 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,480 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, yeah, so us it sounds quite you know, right, 947 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,080 Speaker 1: you must be related, but over there it's like not Smith, 948 00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:39,120 Speaker 1: but you know it's quite common. Um, so yeah, Jean Colinar, 949 00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:44,800 Speaker 1: he's great. And there's also the local papers in Corsica course, Mattin. 950 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,960 Speaker 1: They're really good. You might have to translate stuff, but 951 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:49,480 Speaker 1: they're very on the ball, you know what I mean 952 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,080 Speaker 1: that they're focused on everything. So if people are interested 953 00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:54,040 Speaker 1: in it, honestly, I would say like seek out local 954 00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,080 Speaker 1: French reporters. From what I gathered as well, there's there's 955 00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:02,880 Speaker 1: a quiet, but really thriving kind of youth media. I 956 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't say it's a it's a movement, but there's something 957 00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,120 Speaker 1: growing there, you know. I spoke before I went out. 958 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,120 Speaker 1: I spoke to quite a few reporters, really nice people, 959 00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:14,800 Speaker 1: really enthusiastic, really you know, love loving their island, but 960 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:16,760 Speaker 1: not full of hatred or anything like that. That that's 961 00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,000 Speaker 1: something that I've seen a lot of French people say, oh, 962 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:23,160 Speaker 1: Corsicans are really full of hatred, their racist, They're blah blah. 963 00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,640 Speaker 1: And it's like, I didn't experience that. And at the 964 00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:34,320 Speaker 1: same time, it's like have you been to Paris, right, yeah, yeah, 965 00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,200 Speaker 1: you know, like it's like the end of the day. 966 00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:38,760 Speaker 1: I think the whole region probably has a has an 967 00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,560 Speaker 1: issue with that, but certainly the youth are very open minded, 968 00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,920 Speaker 1: very nice. Um And like I said, this isn't just 969 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,880 Speaker 1: me basing it off of one trip. I've been fascinated 970 00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:50,960 Speaker 1: with this place for about six to eight years and 971 00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,520 Speaker 1: I I have not experienced anything like that. Sure you'll 972 00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,800 Speaker 1: hear the old comment like you know very yeah it's Europe, 973 00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:03,520 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, exactly Europe. Not to minimize it, but like 974 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:09,640 Speaker 1: it's just Corsica exactly whatever. Generally, you know, for a 975 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,040 Speaker 1: small island, it could be way worse. And so I 976 00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:13,920 Speaker 1: had a lot of French people, like they're really nasty, 977 00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,120 Speaker 1: they're really violent, and it's like they're not actually like 978 00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,400 Speaker 1: they're very angry, but they don't hate. They don't hate 979 00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,560 Speaker 1: the French in that sense of like, oh you're a 980 00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:26,240 Speaker 1: French person, kill you. It's the same thing as we 981 00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,400 Speaker 1: hate the state, you know. Like and at the same 982 00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:30,640 Speaker 1: time they have a very quite a few people brought 983 00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:34,560 Speaker 1: up Ireland and the Basque situation and Sardinia, and so 984 00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:38,800 Speaker 1: they have this they have an internationalist mentality as well. Actually, 985 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:40,880 Speaker 1: and in fact, years ago there used to be a 986 00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,600 Speaker 1: youth conference in Corsica hosted there. I don't think it 987 00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,520 Speaker 1: goes on anymore, but it was hosted in Corsica by 988 00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:51,560 Speaker 1: what was a very well organized radical socialist youth movement 989 00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:55,000 Speaker 1: in Corsica, where people from northern Ireland, people from the 990 00:59:55,080 --> 01:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Basque country, people from um, uh, what's the one in Barcelona, Oh, um, Calonia, Catalonia. Yeah, 991 01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,080 Speaker 1: people from there would come, you know, all people from 992 01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,480 Speaker 1: different breakaway regions or whatever, and they would all come 993 01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:13,160 Speaker 1: and they would all meet in courseco and they would 994 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,120 Speaker 1: talk about tactics and politics and whatever. So it's a 995 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:20,720 Speaker 1: very very interesting culture place, amazing history. Fucking the Poland 996 01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,320 Speaker 1: is from Napoleon is from there. You know that's what 997 01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,680 Speaker 1: you want. Um. So yeah, it's a really cool place. 998 01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:29,480 Speaker 1: And you know, we only documented one side of it, 999 01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,800 Speaker 1: a very radical side of it, because that's what was 1000 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,480 Speaker 1: happening that weekend to dispatch. But there are a lot 1001 01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:36,680 Speaker 1: of moderates as well. There were a lot of like political, 1002 01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,200 Speaker 1: very smart political moderate moderates that are like, look, we 1003 01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,080 Speaker 1: don't want violence, but we do want autonomy, we want something. 1004 01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:45,360 Speaker 1: And they you know, they said, oh, you only showed 1005 01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,440 Speaker 1: the militant side of It's like, well, you weren't on 1006 01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,760 Speaker 1: the street that day, you know, these kids were, so 1007 01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:53,560 Speaker 1: obviously that's how it works. But yeah, I would to 1008 01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:55,480 Speaker 1: actually a question again. Sorry, I would say just if 1009 01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,880 Speaker 1: you're interested in the region, um check it out. And 1010 01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,040 Speaker 1: they're there's there's a film if you can find it 1011 01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:04,160 Speaker 1: in English subtitles, send it to me. But there's a 1012 01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:09,440 Speaker 1: fictionalized film about the effllency. I think it's called A 1013 01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:13,560 Speaker 1: Life of violence. Um, that's actually like quite good. It's 1014 01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:15,920 Speaker 1: a bit romantic size, but it's quite good in terms 1015 01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,840 Speaker 1: of explaining this situation there if you speak French. Checked 1016 01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,120 Speaker 1: out and just check out like course Martin and all 1017 01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:24,280 Speaker 1: these these other kind of local reporters there. People are like, oh, 1018 01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,200 Speaker 1: it's too hard to find them. It does feel like that, 1019 01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:30,080 Speaker 1: but once you find them, you find them all. So yeah, awesome. Well, 1020 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,200 Speaker 1: Jake Canrahan, thank you so much. Check out the new 1021 01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:39,120 Speaker 1: Popular Front dispatch on Corsica. Um, by the way to YouTube. Yeah, 1022 01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,600 Speaker 1: so check out all the Popular Front stuff on YouTube. 1023 01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,360 Speaker 1: You've got a great documentary out also about the territorial 1024 01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,760 Speaker 1: defense militias in Ukraine that you're filmed right before ship went. 1025 01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,440 Speaker 1: Yeah you know where it is. Yeah, yeah, we're standing 1026 01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:55,240 Speaker 1: it because we're a bit like how do we yea, 1027 01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:57,400 Speaker 1: how do we make this most relevant? But it's it's 1028 01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,240 Speaker 1: coming that it's it will be quite interesting. Excited the 1029 01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:03,160 Speaker 1: perspective before. Yeah, the ship you're posting on Twitter was 1030 01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:07,160 Speaker 1: really interesting. Um, so yeah check that out when it's out. 1031 01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:10,680 Speaker 1: Check out all the Popular fronts other stuff. Um and yeah, 1032 01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,960 Speaker 1: thank you Jake. Let's uh, well we'll have you back 1033 01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:33,000 Speaker 1: on soon. All right, thank you very much. Welcome to 1034 01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:39,840 Speaker 1: it could happen here the podcast, the podcast, every episode. 1035 01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,440 Speaker 1: When you open too many podcasts, you you lose the 1036 01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:49,840 Speaker 1: ability to open podcasts anyway. Uh St Andrew, UM, this 1037 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:51,880 Speaker 1: is your episode, so I'm gonna let you. Let you 1038 01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:57,720 Speaker 1: take it, take it away, take us on a journey. Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hi, 1039 01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,400 Speaker 1: good afternoon, and good night. UM. Today we just wanted 1040 01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:09,320 Speaker 1: to cover rather broad topic. I don't even know if 1041 01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:13,320 Speaker 1: it's gonna be released before the end of February, probably not, 1042 01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:16,920 Speaker 1: But in honor of Black History Month, I wanted to 1043 01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:23,600 Speaker 1: cover the history of Caribbean resistance to slavery and the 1044 01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:30,000 Speaker 1: different ways that manifested across the Caribbean. For those who 1045 01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:37,160 Speaker 1: don't know, UM, slavery in the Caribbean took place for 1046 01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:42,560 Speaker 1: several hundred years, beginning with the enslavement of the Amerindians 1047 01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:49,040 Speaker 1: the and continuing up until the abolition of slavery in 1048 01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:55,200 Speaker 1: three four, at least in British territories. UM. Before then, 1049 01:03:56,360 --> 01:04:04,160 Speaker 1: there were multiple struggles UM against the institution, both passive 1050 01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:09,400 Speaker 1: and active, and in every step of the process. UM. 1051 01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:14,680 Speaker 1: And then, of course post slavery, they were also multiple 1052 01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:21,040 Speaker 1: rebellions and insurrections and strikes that took place in the region. 1053 01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:28,160 Speaker 1: But I can't cover the well they about seven thousand 1054 01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:30,480 Speaker 1: islands in the Caribbean, give or take, but I can't 1055 01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:33,040 Speaker 1: cover the histories of all of those for the past 1056 01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:35,919 Speaker 1: couple of thousand years. But I will try to cover 1057 01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:40,040 Speaker 1: fairly generally the different forms of resistance that took place, 1058 01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:45,040 Speaker 1: starting with, of course, the resistances took place in Africa. 1059 01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,840 Speaker 1: I mean even before and state of people were put 1060 01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,880 Speaker 1: on these ships, even before they were captured. They were 1061 01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:56,560 Speaker 1: measures they were taken to protect themselves from enslavement. There 1062 01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:01,360 Speaker 1: was of course flight in the sense of running away um. 1063 01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:06,520 Speaker 1: But there was also evidence of Africans moving their villages 1064 01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:12,600 Speaker 1: to inaccessible areas like mountains or um or deeper into 1065 01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:17,200 Speaker 1: the forest were less accessible for enslaved people UM sorry 1066 01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:22,440 Speaker 1: for enslavers to try to capture their people. One of 1067 01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:29,680 Speaker 1: the more famous enslaved people um Luada Equino. He founded 1068 01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:37,840 Speaker 1: a society in Britain after being enslaved and taken to 1069 01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:42,800 Speaker 1: the Caribbean and eventually moving to Britain after becoming a 1070 01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:46,840 Speaker 1: freedman and starting the Sons of Africa abolitionist group. He 1071 01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:50,320 Speaker 1: had written his own autobiography, The Interesting Narrative of the 1072 01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:56,600 Speaker 1: Life of Daquino, and he detailed some of the horrors 1073 01:05:56,640 --> 01:06:00,360 Speaker 1: of slavery from an enslaved person's perspective and to a 1074 01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:03,680 Speaker 1: lot of what we knew about slavery and how it 1075 01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:10,240 Speaker 1: could ah comes from his personal account, among others. Of course, 1076 01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:13,440 Speaker 1: so he spoke about some of the measures that were 1077 01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:19,040 Speaker 1: taken in his own village to defend against capture. But 1078 01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:24,640 Speaker 1: um he after being captured, of course, from the Kingdom 1079 01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:31,000 Speaker 1: of Indian around he ended up being taken on the 1080 01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:37,360 Speaker 1: slave ships, separated from his families and carried with four 1081 01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:41,760 Speaker 1: other people across the Atlantic to Barbados, and then eventually 1082 01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:46,560 Speaker 1: taken to Virginia, and then from Virginia being bought by 1083 01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:52,400 Speaker 1: a Royal Navy lieutenant and eventually being freed. During the 1084 01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,560 Speaker 1: voyages that it could, and they were multiple during the 1085 01:06:56,640 --> 01:07:00,280 Speaker 1: whole Triangle trade, it has been said that one in 1086 01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:04,240 Speaker 1: ten of all Atlantic crossings through the Middle prop passage 1087 01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:10,440 Speaker 1: had some kind of rebellion, whether it be through taking 1088 01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:12,840 Speaker 1: control of the ships and attempting to seal them back 1089 01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,760 Speaker 1: to Africa with the assistance of the crew without all 1090 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:21,680 Speaker 1: of Africans battling against other ships um or in one 1091 01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:28,280 Speaker 1: case in Amistat, in some Africans were taken captive above 1092 01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:32,840 Speaker 1: aboard a cargo ship and they free themselves, killed the 1093 01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:36,840 Speaker 1: captain and the cook, and forced them to take them 1094 01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:41,360 Speaker 1: back to Sierra Leone, but instead the owners of the 1095 01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,680 Speaker 1: ship ended up taking them to the United States, where 1096 01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:50,600 Speaker 1: they were captured by the coast Guard. Jesus, yeah, it's 1097 01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:57,840 Speaker 1: a lot um one slaveship surgeon guy named Alexander Falconbridge 1098 01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:02,520 Speaker 1: became an abolitionist because he's so well. The first of all, 1099 01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:07,680 Speaker 1: he saw the horrible conditions that were present on those 1100 01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,320 Speaker 1: ships in the Middle Passage, where you know, hundreds of 1101 01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:16,759 Speaker 1: people were shackled together and crammed into these tight enclosed, dark, 1102 01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:24,519 Speaker 1: wet infected spaces for weeks on anger being taken across, 1103 01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:29,160 Speaker 1: and of course a lot of the so called cargo, 1104 01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:32,639 Speaker 1: the people who were on route to be enslaved, were 1105 01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:37,280 Speaker 1: killed by the conditions presidents on those slave ships. However, 1106 01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:40,280 Speaker 1: despite the fact that you know, so many people were 1107 01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:47,200 Speaker 1: dying from the terrible conditions of the ships, the slave 1108 01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:51,600 Speaker 1: trade was so profitable for the enslavers and for the 1109 01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:58,120 Speaker 1: economies of the colonial nations that it was still there 1110 01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:01,320 Speaker 1: was still they were still not only able to break 1111 01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:07,400 Speaker 1: even but profit massively from the excursions. And even though 1112 01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,679 Speaker 1: the Middle Passage got more and more dangerous for cruise 1113 01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:17,640 Speaker 1: as rebellions became more and more expected, production for more shackles, 1114 01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:22,400 Speaker 1: more weaponry to keep captives secured a rose in England 1115 01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:28,880 Speaker 1: and helped to secure some of their travels. Of course, 1116 01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:33,799 Speaker 1: they were also times where Africans would burn the ships 1117 01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,600 Speaker 1: they were on, or where they would jump off of 1118 01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:40,679 Speaker 1: the ships. As I'm sure many people remember kill Monker's 1119 01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:46,839 Speaker 1: famous Final Woods in Black Panther. And from what I remember, 1120 01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:51,320 Speaker 1: the first and slaved people who arrived in Hispaniola immediately 1121 01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:56,360 Speaker 1: ran away and we're able to escape before being recaptured 1122 01:09:57,320 --> 01:10:01,920 Speaker 1: once Um and say people arrived in the horrible conditions 1123 01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:05,960 Speaker 1: at the various colonies in the Caribbean. One of the 1124 01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:16,360 Speaker 1: major projects of their colonial overlords was to convert them 1125 01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:21,080 Speaker 1: while in the process of you know, enslaving them. Of course, 1126 01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:26,200 Speaker 1: a lot of enslaved people were dying very rapidly due 1127 01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:31,280 Speaker 1: to the diseases and the terrible working conditions they had 1128 01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:37,120 Speaker 1: to endure. Right for those who did survive, Um separated 1129 01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:41,880 Speaker 1: from their families, from their ties to kinship, from really 1130 01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:44,559 Speaker 1: their home and everything that came along with it. As 1131 01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:49,720 Speaker 1: displaced indigenous people, they had to figure out ways to 1132 01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:59,840 Speaker 1: maintain and protect their cultures um from you know, naming conventions, 1133 01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:04,080 Speaker 1: to craftsmanship, to the language, to philosophy, to believes to 1134 01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:08,639 Speaker 1: music to dance. These are all elements of African cultures 1135 01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:14,040 Speaker 1: that would provide psychological support for captives. We need to 1136 01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:18,120 Speaker 1: resist the process of enslavement because enslavement is an act 1137 01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:22,360 Speaker 1: of breaking the will and erasing the humanity of the enslave. 1138 01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:30,840 Speaker 1: Practices like voodoo um in Heity or obia in Trinidad 1139 01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:41,240 Speaker 1: and Jamaica, we're able to strengthen the revolutionary efforts of 1140 01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:49,160 Speaker 1: rebellious Africans and so in the Haitian Revolution, you know, 1141 01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:53,479 Speaker 1: they were fueled by voodoo and the ceremonies that oc 1142 01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:59,000 Speaker 1: could then and we're able to eventually, you know, free 1143 01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:05,160 Speaker 1: the people of Haiti and established the first independent black 1144 01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:08,000 Speaker 1: republic in the New World. You need to know for 1145 01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,960 Speaker 1: so other forms of cultural resistance, and one of the 1146 01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:15,719 Speaker 1: main forms of culture resistance was the preservation of African 1147 01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:21,400 Speaker 1: culture through pre realization, through the melding and the hiding 1148 01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:25,800 Speaker 1: in some cases of elements of African culture with um 1149 01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:30,960 Speaker 1: European cultural forms to create these new cultures and new languages. 1150 01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:36,240 Speaker 1: Um Quol is one example, particularly Antilian Creole, which is 1151 01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:45,360 Speaker 1: related to Haitian Creole. These languages helped to maintain um 1152 01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:49,719 Speaker 1: some measure of identity for people who will be actively 1153 01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:56,000 Speaker 1: being stripped of it. Women in particular play a major 1154 01:12:56,200 --> 01:13:01,320 Speaker 1: role in this process of culture of resistance and cultural 1155 01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:06,800 Speaker 1: preservation because in African societies they were. African societies often 1156 01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:11,519 Speaker 1: made trilineal and mature, local and women played a key 1157 01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:16,160 Speaker 1: role in passing traditions onto their daughters and other young 1158 01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:19,760 Speaker 1: women and to the community at large through storytelling and 1159 01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:26,599 Speaker 1: through um the sharing of skills and beliefs and ideas, 1160 01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:31,120 Speaker 1: and so African women played a major rule in keeping 1161 01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:34,320 Speaker 1: the tradition going and at lineage going, maintaining the memory 1162 01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:40,480 Speaker 1: of people like a Nancy and Rare Rabbits and Mamadalu 1163 01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:46,799 Speaker 1: and Sukyans and all these other folkloric figures who bavy 1164 01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:56,240 Speaker 1: marks of African traditions. Women under slavery also had to 1165 01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:03,919 Speaker 1: do what they could to resist the consist consistent UM violence, 1166 01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:09,720 Speaker 1: sexual violence that was um being done to them. By 1167 01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:17,320 Speaker 1: their cool your masters, UM abortion and UM birth control, 1168 01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:23,400 Speaker 1: UM and other forms of resistance against sexual assault, resisting 1169 01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:30,240 Speaker 1: their masters, feeling illness. All these things worked too, not 1170 01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:40,120 Speaker 1: necessarily protect them, but two keep them going and try 1171 01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:44,600 Speaker 1: to steve off the worst elements of violence it was 1172 01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:49,400 Speaker 1: being done to them. As I mentioned the Haitian Revolution 1173 01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:54,080 Speaker 1: and being fueled by voodoo and whatnot. It really scared 1174 01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:57,200 Speaker 1: planters across the Cribban and across the world, really like 1175 01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:00,240 Speaker 1: this is the first time something I did sort of 1176 01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:06,599 Speaker 1: happened before. And I'm sure, uh the U s audience knew. 1177 01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:11,080 Speaker 1: Is a bit about the consequences in the US. How 1178 01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:15,920 Speaker 1: you know Southern slave masters were so terrified by the 1179 01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:22,400 Speaker 1: Asian Revolution, how France um imposed restrictions on heity, and 1180 01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:25,880 Speaker 1: how the US and other European powers were complicit in 1181 01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:33,200 Speaker 1: that attempts to strangle the first Black Republic. But there 1182 01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:37,040 Speaker 1: were cases in other parts of the Caribbean where planters 1183 01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:42,880 Speaker 1: um in their terror, used the Asian Revolution has an 1184 01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:47,400 Speaker 1: excuse to crackdown on the enslaved um, for example in 1185 01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:50,519 Speaker 1: Trenidad in the Christmas of eighteen o five. The Hassian 1186 01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:54,640 Speaker 1: Revolution ended in eighteen o four, so in Christmas of 1187 01:15:54,680 --> 01:16:01,160 Speaker 1: eighteen five, UM, the planters were so fraid and had 1188 01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:05,560 Speaker 1: really seen some acts of poisoning that we're occurring on 1189 01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:09,320 Speaker 1: some of the estates, because part of the cultural resistance 1190 01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:15,400 Speaker 1: involved the passing down of certain recipes and poisons and concoctions, 1191 01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:21,800 Speaker 1: and so many enslavers you know, fell victim couldn't quote 1192 01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:27,760 Speaker 1: to poisoners, and so they had to try to find 1193 01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:32,200 Speaker 1: a way to prevent what they saw was a planned uprising. 1194 01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:36,120 Speaker 1: They basically invented this idea of a conspiracy in their 1195 01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:39,760 Speaker 1: paranoia that was meant to wipe out this entire slave 1196 01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:44,280 Speaker 1: owning population during that in one go. So of course, 1197 01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:49,000 Speaker 1: as historians have uncovered, the conspiracy most likely didn't actually 1198 01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:53,880 Speaker 1: exist or maybe perhaps not today the scale that um 1199 01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:59,160 Speaker 1: the slave owners thought, but it was more so an 1200 01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:06,439 Speaker 1: attempt by the planters to impose greater authoritarian rule as 1201 01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:10,760 Speaker 1: Christmas Day needs, you know, five approached the details of 1202 01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:15,800 Speaker 1: this conspiracy, of this plot sorted to be uncovered by 1203 01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:19,160 Speaker 1: the planters. UM they thought that, you know, at this 1204 01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:25,960 Speaker 1: place called Chance Estate, enslaved people we're organizing to launch 1205 01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:31,640 Speaker 1: their revolution. And of course this terrified them because at 1206 01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:34,280 Speaker 1: that point in time, the enslaved population was somewhere around 1207 01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:39,960 Speaker 1: whereas the white slave owning class it was like half 1208 01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:44,960 Speaker 1: that number. And so the authorities declared martial law and 1209 01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:50,400 Speaker 1: apprehended those involved if they were even involved. Oftentimes they 1210 01:17:50,439 --> 01:17:55,679 Speaker 1: were not. But it does bring attention to an important 1211 01:17:55,760 --> 01:18:01,840 Speaker 1: part of enslave resistance, and that being the conspiracy and 1212 01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:10,400 Speaker 1: actual existence of slave secret societies. Secret societies are something that, ah, 1213 01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:16,280 Speaker 1: It's something that's common in the African Madan land where 1214 01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:24,640 Speaker 1: tribal rights and initiations and advancements through those rights um 1215 01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:28,719 Speaker 1: in secret groupings would occur um to sort of denote 1216 01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:35,360 Speaker 1: levels of ranco maturity and so in slave society, as 1217 01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:41,799 Speaker 1: different tribes mixed and mingled and plantations for security reasons. 1218 01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:50,160 Speaker 1: These secret societies continued but had assimilated some European systems 1219 01:18:50,200 --> 01:18:52,760 Speaker 1: of order and designation. So they gave themselves names like 1220 01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:58,320 Speaker 1: major or Captain and described their societies as regiments and 1221 01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:04,320 Speaker 1: the echoes the descendants of those societies still exists to 1222 01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:09,360 Speaker 1: this day in Trindad. They are highly obscured. I honestly 1223 01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:11,640 Speaker 1: don't know much details about them. I just know that 1224 01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:17,560 Speaker 1: I have some friends whose relatives um are involved in 1225 01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:23,879 Speaker 1: those secret societies, and in some places like for example 1226 01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:28,840 Speaker 1: Grancouver where and stay people seized the land and sort 1227 01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:31,479 Speaker 1: of held that land and kept it and passed it 1228 01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:36,799 Speaker 1: down across the generations. Um, such secret societies and membership 1229 01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:41,600 Speaker 1: in such secret societies is not unheard of. So is 1230 01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:46,400 Speaker 1: what the the modern ish versions of them do? Like 1231 01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:49,439 Speaker 1: what what what? What what are they doing? I guess 1232 01:19:50,840 --> 01:19:54,080 Speaker 1: like these days if if there's something that is, I 1233 01:19:54,240 --> 01:19:59,320 Speaker 1: don't know much about about them or how they operate. Yeah, 1234 01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:01,479 Speaker 1: and so I don't think all the secret societies and 1235 01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:07,160 Speaker 1: turned at are descended from enslave serious societies like obviously not. 1236 01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:12,400 Speaker 1: There are other um secret societies, their societies of doctors 1237 01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:17,200 Speaker 1: and of lawyers and different treads um. There of course 1238 01:20:18,479 --> 01:20:24,000 Speaker 1: Mason groups as well, and I well, you know, the 1239 01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:30,679 Speaker 1: most um superficial details of most of these groups essentially 1240 01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:32,360 Speaker 1: thing that comes up a look that there there's a 1241 01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:36,080 Speaker 1: whole bunch of like these sort of secret society groups 1242 01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:38,000 Speaker 1: that like wind up being part of an engine leven 1243 01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:40,800 Speaker 1: revolution in China, but they sort of, like most of them, 1244 01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:44,160 Speaker 1: kind of go bandit like after the revolution happens. And 1245 01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:47,400 Speaker 1: so it's just it's interesting to see I guess, like 1246 01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:50,160 Speaker 1: different contexts where they don't seem to have like just 1247 01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:54,280 Speaker 1: over itly turned into organized crime groups. Right, what's the 1248 01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:58,120 Speaker 1: like organized crime groups descended from secret societies in China, 1249 01:20:58,880 --> 01:21:02,000 Speaker 1: the Triads, for example. Yeah, I actually don't think the 1250 01:21:02,040 --> 01:21:04,080 Speaker 1: Triers send it from them. A couple of them joined 1251 01:21:04,120 --> 01:21:06,000 Speaker 1: the Communists, a lot of them kind of got wiped 1252 01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:09,160 Speaker 1: out in the sort of just general warlord fighting, and 1253 01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:11,800 Speaker 1: then some of them kind of got stumped up by 1254 01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:16,080 Speaker 1: the Communists because they were basically turned into organized their 1255 01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:18,640 Speaker 1: own organized crime things were sort of distinct from the 1256 01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:23,600 Speaker 1: other ones existed. But right, there were seven major rebellions 1257 01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:27,360 Speaker 1: in the Colony of Jamaica between sixteen seventy three and 1258 01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:32,560 Speaker 1: sixteen six, and several others in Antigua, in Nevus, in 1259 01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:38,599 Speaker 1: Fujian Islands, in you know, Barbados, in just across the Caribbean. 1260 01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:43,360 Speaker 1: There was continual African resistance and rebellion, and that really 1261 01:21:43,479 --> 01:21:46,800 Speaker 1: is what struck fair in these stave woulders at the time. 1262 01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:50,800 Speaker 1: In one case, um in seventeen thirty three, during the 1263 01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:54,680 Speaker 1: Amino Rebellion on St. John, which is part of the 1264 01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:57,960 Speaker 1: Danish Fusion Islands, or was part of the Danish Fusian Islands. 1265 01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:01,880 Speaker 1: The African inslusions to controlled the island for six months 1266 01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:08,280 Speaker 1: before being defeated, and the most slave rebellions really occurred 1267 01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:12,919 Speaker 1: in Jamaica, in fact, more than all the other colonies, 1268 01:22:13,320 --> 01:22:16,160 Speaker 1: more than all the other British colonies in the Caribbean combined. 1269 01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:19,640 Speaker 1: One of the most famous of the Jamaican rebellions was 1270 01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:22,360 Speaker 1: one of the Sudden seventeen six day by a man 1271 01:22:22,439 --> 01:22:25,840 Speaker 1: known as Tachi, had lasted for over a year before 1272 01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:32,280 Speaker 1: being suppressed by British colonial forces. Because Jamaica's population was 1273 01:22:33,320 --> 01:22:38,240 Speaker 1: massively overwhelmingly black in comparison to the very small minority 1274 01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:44,160 Speaker 1: of large slaveholding white, they were more likely to launch 1275 01:22:44,520 --> 01:22:48,679 Speaker 1: and more likely to succeed in slave refools. Um. Slave 1276 01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:50,559 Speaker 1: refolds are more likely to happen, of course, where slaves 1277 01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:55,519 Speaker 1: outnumber white, where masters are absent, where there's economic distress, 1278 01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:59,160 Speaker 1: where they are split within the ruling elite um, and 1279 01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:03,599 Speaker 1: when large numbers of Native one Africans from one area 1280 01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:06,040 Speaker 1: of brought in one time, which is why they often 1281 01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:09,799 Speaker 1: have to split up. There the people that they captured 1282 01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:11,720 Speaker 1: so they wouldn't be able to collaborate with their king. 1283 01:23:12,840 --> 01:23:16,479 Speaker 1: We often remember the flashy of forms of revolts such 1284 01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:20,679 Speaker 1: as the revolt in St. Joseph in seven led by Dagger, 1285 01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:24,680 Speaker 1: who is a former African chief in Guinea and the 1286 01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:30,840 Speaker 1: leader of the first British West India regiment Um. He 1287 01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:37,800 Speaker 1: mutinied along with two men, and although they were taken 1288 01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:44,720 Speaker 1: into custody and sentenced to death, they marked just one 1289 01:23:44,760 --> 01:23:49,280 Speaker 1: example of this sort of bold actions that were taken 1290 01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:53,000 Speaker 1: by in state of people in Tobago um in the 1291 01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:58,240 Speaker 1: year seventeen seventy. There were numerous armed the volts over 1292 01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:02,839 Speaker 1: the next eleven years, from seventy sev one, six armed revolts, 1293 01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:06,599 Speaker 1: one by led by an enslaveman named Sandy in seventeen 1294 01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:10,160 Speaker 1: seventy two in seventeen seventy one, one in June lyet 1295 01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:13,439 Speaker 1: in August one in seventeen seventy three, another in seventeen 1296 01:24:13,479 --> 01:24:17,839 Speaker 1: seventy four, another eighteen o one. And so these revolts 1297 01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:20,040 Speaker 1: to that constry didn't one specific year of the island. 1298 01:24:20,479 --> 01:24:24,240 Speaker 1: They would happened in some cases over the entire island. 1299 01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:28,160 Speaker 1: Tobago is of course separate from trained Dad until eight nine, 1300 01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:33,000 Speaker 1: where it became a ward of Trina Tobago. But and 1301 01:24:33,120 --> 01:24:36,040 Speaker 1: so their history is the history of Trian Island history 1302 01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:41,760 Speaker 1: of Tobago. We're separate, running separately for the first couple 1303 01:24:41,880 --> 01:24:49,920 Speaker 1: hundred years of the age of colonization, but Tobago's history 1304 01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:55,120 Speaker 1: of resistance is still connected in some ways to trend 1305 01:24:55,200 --> 01:24:57,679 Speaker 1: dads history of resistance in the sense of the bold 1306 01:24:57,760 --> 01:25:01,479 Speaker 1: actions that would taken by a slave people. Of course, 1307 01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:06,360 Speaker 1: not all resistance to slavery was so bold. Day to 1308 01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:09,560 Speaker 1: day resistance was by far the most common form of 1309 01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:14,560 Speaker 1: opposition to slavery, whether it be through feigning illness, staging slowdowns, 1310 01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:23,160 Speaker 1: pretending ignorance, deliver a carelessness, awsome sabotage, breaking tools. These 1311 01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:32,200 Speaker 1: sorts of expressions, while they reinforced previously held perceptions of 1312 01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:42,000 Speaker 1: enslaved Africans at the time, they also ways of enslaved 1313 01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:45,439 Speaker 1: people to express their alienation and to sort of corve 1314 01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:49,200 Speaker 1: some level of space or breathing room, or to give 1315 01:25:49,240 --> 01:25:55,200 Speaker 1: themselves some sense of catharsis in that brutal period. And 1316 01:25:55,240 --> 01:25:58,200 Speaker 1: so what we see is a sort of continuum of 1317 01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:04,320 Speaker 1: resistance from that sort of individual level of slowing down 1318 01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:09,200 Speaker 1: or failing ignorance or what or whatever, to the sort 1319 01:26:09,240 --> 01:26:14,200 Speaker 1: of broader cultural methods of passive resistance, such as you know, 1320 01:26:15,520 --> 01:26:21,600 Speaker 1: cultivating and passing down culture and cultural memories to the 1321 01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:25,160 Speaker 1: more bold aspects of resistance such as revolts and rebellions 1322 01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:35,400 Speaker 1: and revolutions. And of course there was the practice of maroonage, 1323 01:26:36,520 --> 01:26:43,040 Speaker 1: both petite and grand maroonage. Petite maroonage was an effort 1324 01:26:43,240 --> 01:26:49,640 Speaker 1: by individuals or groups of unstated people to escape from 1325 01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:55,519 Speaker 1: their plantations permanentally sometimes but usually for a limited amount 1326 01:26:55,560 --> 01:27:01,879 Speaker 1: of time, to escape mistreatment, to nick sheet better treatment, 1327 01:27:02,840 --> 01:27:07,839 Speaker 1: or it's even just catch a break honestly. Grand moonage 1328 01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:13,440 Speaker 1: is more commonly understood and recognized where communities of fugitive 1329 01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:19,960 Speaker 1: slaves would establish communities on the fringes in the swamps 1330 01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:25,719 Speaker 1: of Louisiana, for example, or in the mountains of Jamaica, 1331 01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:31,439 Speaker 1: and these moon communities have been established since the very beginning, 1332 01:27:32,160 --> 01:27:35,120 Speaker 1: since the early sixteenth century. When the fust and slave 1333 01:27:35,120 --> 01:27:38,439 Speaker 1: Africans are brought to the Caribbean by the Spanish, they 1334 01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:42,000 Speaker 1: would often unite with Amerindians, whether it be you know 1335 01:27:42,160 --> 01:27:48,680 Speaker 1: Tinos or Kalinago's, or go to base and unite with 1336 01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:56,960 Speaker 1: them in their resistance in carving out settlements or strongholds 1337 01:27:57,160 --> 01:28:01,400 Speaker 1: of safety. For example, in fifty forty six. In Hispaniola, 1338 01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:05,080 Speaker 1: there were over seven thousand Maroons among a slave population 1339 01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:09,479 Speaker 1: of eight thousands. After the island was split between the 1340 01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:12,120 Speaker 1: French santoming which is later which is now known as 1341 01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:16,120 Speaker 1: Haiti and the Spanish Santo Domingo, which is the Dominican Republic. 1342 01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:21,320 Speaker 1: In Maroons took advantage of the hostility between France and 1343 01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:24,960 Speaker 1: Spain to maintain settlements along the border between the two 1344 01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:28,639 Speaker 1: throughout the period of slavery. Addition, there were the Ruins 1345 01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:32,680 Speaker 1: in Cuba, in Puerto Rico, and in some cases with 1346 01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:39,200 Speaker 1: Puerto Rico. Fugitive slaves from the Virgin Islands would literally 1347 01:28:39,320 --> 01:28:43,840 Speaker 1: set sail to Puerto Rico to settle and escape the 1348 01:28:43,960 --> 01:28:49,480 Speaker 1: enslavemands there. In Jamaica, of course, there are many ruined communities, 1349 01:28:49,640 --> 01:28:52,920 Speaker 1: and in fact, there is still an active Maroon community 1350 01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:56,120 Speaker 1: in Jamaica to this day that has persisted and maintained 1351 01:28:56,160 --> 01:29:01,439 Speaker 1: their traditions. Um Insane Kits in Antigua, in Barbados, in 1352 01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:05,680 Speaker 1: Martinique and Guada Loup. All of these islands have had 1353 01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:13,360 Speaker 1: Moon communities established um However, as European cultivation the islands increased. 1354 01:29:13,439 --> 01:29:16,559 Speaker 1: As Europeans ventured further and further into the islands, into 1355 01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:18,920 Speaker 1: the depths of the islands, it became more and more 1356 01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:22,040 Speaker 1: difficult to establish moon settlements because if you look at 1357 01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:27,439 Speaker 1: some of the smaller islands, it's kind of difficult to 1358 01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:32,040 Speaker 1: hide or to establish any sort of sustainable community on 1359 01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:38,360 Speaker 1: the fringes of an island that you could easily jog 1360 01:29:38,560 --> 01:29:42,080 Speaker 1: from one side to the other, or you know, walk 1361 01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:45,560 Speaker 1: from one side to the other. Of course, even on 1362 01:29:45,640 --> 01:29:49,680 Speaker 1: those smaller islands, there were still attempts to maintain moon settlements, 1363 01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:53,599 Speaker 1: such as in St. Vincent or Dominica. In St. Vincent, 1364 01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:59,400 Speaker 1: the Garifuna, which an indigenous group mixed who mixed with Africans, 1365 01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:03,879 Speaker 1: preserved they depend their independence against both French and the British, 1366 01:30:04,439 --> 01:30:07,799 Speaker 1: and they ended up spreading to um if I recall 1367 01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:11,240 Speaker 1: correctly Central America as well, and so the Garifona community 1368 01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:13,920 Speaker 1: is still very much alive and well to this day. 1369 01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:21,879 Speaker 1: In Jamaica and Cuba and Guadeloupe and Hispaniola, Marion communities 1370 01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:25,120 Speaker 1: were able to last longer because they had um more 1371 01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:30,280 Speaker 1: mountainous terrain to hide in, particularly in Jamaica. Um but 1372 01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:34,200 Speaker 1: they were also Maroon communities on the South American mainland. 1373 01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:38,559 Speaker 1: You know. In Brazil there was the famous Moroon community 1374 01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:41,479 Speaker 1: or quilombo known as pal Mares, which has existed for 1375 01:30:41,640 --> 01:30:47,600 Speaker 1: nearly years. From sixteen o five to six, there is 1376 01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:50,720 Speaker 1: a certain invasion by both the Dutch and Portuguese and 1377 01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:57,439 Speaker 1: had at least ten thousand organized UM members ready to 1378 01:30:57,800 --> 01:31:02,720 Speaker 1: defend their operation. They were governed by a king who 1379 01:31:02,840 --> 01:31:08,080 Speaker 1: used the political traditions drawn from Central Africa, but they 1380 01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:15,960 Speaker 1: unfortunately were eventually destroyed. In the Guyana's French Guyana UM, 1381 01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:20,360 Speaker 1: British Guyana which is now called Guyana UM Dutch Guyana 1382 01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:23,679 Speaker 1: which is now called surname. Marion communities were also able 1383 01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:26,760 Speaker 1: to establish themselves and they still persist to this day 1384 01:31:27,200 --> 01:31:34,280 Speaker 1: due to the um Amazon rainforest and the river wheels 1385 01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:41,000 Speaker 1: that allowed them to conceal themselves from colonial encroachment. Of course, 1386 01:31:41,040 --> 01:31:43,280 Speaker 1: in the US they were all Summaron communities, like the 1387 01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:47,720 Speaker 1: Black Seminoles of Florida or the Morion communities in Um 1388 01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:53,360 Speaker 1: I believe it was the Louisiana It's most places. Of course, 1389 01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:59,120 Speaker 1: Maroon communities were not very large UM or often did 1390 01:31:59,160 --> 01:32:03,680 Speaker 1: not last very long. They're usually small thriller bands led 1391 01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:07,679 Speaker 1: by an elected chief. But of course these smaller bands 1392 01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:12,560 Speaker 1: in there. Although they were small, that sort of protected 1393 01:32:12,640 --> 01:32:19,240 Speaker 1: them to some extent from detection and from recapture. In Cuba, 1394 01:32:19,280 --> 01:32:23,120 Speaker 1: for example, they were hundreds of small Maroon communities and 1395 01:32:23,240 --> 01:32:26,840 Speaker 1: they were guarded, and they were and they had their 1396 01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:31,960 Speaker 1: settlements guarded by ditches and steaks and secret paths, and 1397 01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:35,479 Speaker 1: these settlements communicated with each other while remaining isolated, so 1398 01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:38,679 Speaker 1: they could grow their own crops and hunt and fish 1399 01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:43,559 Speaker 1: and trade in peace, sometimes with other islands. In what's 1400 01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:49,840 Speaker 1: to prevent again capture and destruction. I think there's a 1401 01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:53,600 Speaker 1: lot that we can learn from the different forms of resistance, 1402 01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:57,960 Speaker 1: small and large that instead of people, and it took 1403 01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:02,560 Speaker 1: throughout the period of colonial settlements and expansion and enslavement, 1404 01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:07,640 Speaker 1: elements of their practices and I think could be applied 1405 01:33:08,520 --> 01:33:15,040 Speaker 1: to these struggles. Do you have any thoughts before the wrap? Yeah. 1406 01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:18,519 Speaker 1: One thing I kind of want to plug is Russell 1407 01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:24,880 Speaker 1: Maroon showed wrote a really interesting I I don't know 1408 01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:29,960 Speaker 1: exactly what the name for essay, I guess called the 1409 01:33:30,000 --> 01:33:34,519 Speaker 1: Dragon and the Hydra, which is a study. Yeah. Yeah, 1410 01:33:34,560 --> 01:33:37,160 Speaker 1: it's called Dragon the Hydra study of historical study of 1411 01:33:37,240 --> 01:33:41,120 Speaker 1: organizational methods, and it's about basically a comparison of like 1412 01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:46,040 Speaker 1: different different kinds of resistance to colony Linsman Enslavement that 1413 01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:48,240 Speaker 1: talks a lot about the Roan movement, talks about sort 1414 01:33:48,280 --> 01:33:52,839 Speaker 1: of the problems that these sort of like highly centralized, 1415 01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:56,040 Speaker 1: top down movements ran into versus the kind of stuff 1416 01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:59,679 Speaker 1: that the that these sort of more decentralized, less hierarchical 1417 01:33:59,760 --> 01:34:04,120 Speaker 1: momber movements face. And it's it's really interesting and it's 1418 01:34:04,240 --> 01:34:08,760 Speaker 1: pretty short, so everyone should just read it because it's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1419 01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:14,160 Speaker 1: He covers the us p T, Suriname and Jamaica, and 1420 01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:18,440 Speaker 1: you know how those different Moon communities dealt with their conditions. 1421 01:34:19,439 --> 01:34:21,640 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you brought this from prison too, if 1422 01:34:21,680 --> 01:34:26,639 Speaker 1: I'm remembering my timeline history correctly. Yes, I highly recommend 1423 01:34:26,720 --> 01:34:29,320 Speaker 1: folks without to read. I mean, I don't want to 1424 01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:34,880 Speaker 1: give the impression that Uron communities where these like valiant utopias. 1425 01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:40,280 Speaker 1: I mean, in some cases Mouron communities who manipulated UM 1426 01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:46,320 Speaker 1: against the other and often in exchange for maintaining the autonomy, 1427 01:34:47,400 --> 01:34:50,040 Speaker 1: they were made to sign treaties where they would have 1428 01:34:50,160 --> 01:34:54,720 Speaker 1: to turn in UM fugitives. So it was not, by 1429 01:34:54,720 --> 01:34:59,800 Speaker 1: any means are perfect situation to be in. But they 1430 01:34:59,800 --> 01:35:03,400 Speaker 1: were trying to cough out their survival. Yeah, I guess 1431 01:35:04,280 --> 01:35:07,360 Speaker 1: do you want to plug your stuff? So you can 1432 01:35:07,439 --> 01:35:10,640 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter, at on discore seeing True and 1433 01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:15,639 Speaker 1: on YouTube seem to on tourism, where I have lots 1434 01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:17,840 Speaker 1: of stuff. I mean, if you were interested in, for example, 1435 01:35:19,080 --> 01:35:23,160 Speaker 1: the details of how spirituality played a role in African resistance, 1436 01:35:23,200 --> 01:35:26,120 Speaker 1: I have a video on that. If you're interested in, 1437 01:35:27,320 --> 01:35:33,680 Speaker 1: you know, how Wada Equa New established the Sons of 1438 01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:39,000 Speaker 1: Africa group and how that was one of the foundations 1439 01:35:39,080 --> 01:35:41,400 Speaker 1: of what eventually became the Pan Afganist movement. I have 1440 01:35:41,439 --> 01:35:45,080 Speaker 1: a video on Pan Africanism that you could check out. So, yeah, 1441 01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:48,400 Speaker 1: that's it for me. That was great. I didn't know 1442 01:35:48,439 --> 01:35:52,400 Speaker 1: there were still marine communities actually yeah, yeah, the one 1443 01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:57,120 Speaker 1: in Jamaica, the one in Suriname. They are still very 1444 01:35:57,160 --> 01:36:01,080 Speaker 1: much alive. And well, yeah, it's fascinating. Ah st Andrew, 1445 01:36:01,160 --> 01:36:04,320 Speaker 1: thank you for that. That was wonderful. And uh, that's 1446 01:36:04,439 --> 01:36:09,080 Speaker 1: that's our episode for today. So go home and doom 1447 01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:14,200 Speaker 1: scroll for several hours probably, or or do something productive 1448 01:36:16,960 --> 01:36:20,160 Speaker 1: or something. I had a cat, big some cookies, hand 1449 01:36:20,240 --> 01:36:23,240 Speaker 1: out food to people who were hungry, you know, big 1450 01:36:23,280 --> 01:36:25,720 Speaker 1: some cookies and then handled the cookies to people who 1451 01:36:25,800 --> 01:36:30,240 Speaker 1: need or doom scroll, you know, all productive things that 1452 01:36:30,360 --> 01:36:38,840 Speaker 1: are some significantly productive. Alright, friends, that's h that's the 1453 01:36:38,920 --> 01:37:07,040 Speaker 1: episode piece. Oh that's how you start a podcast. This 1454 01:37:07,200 --> 01:37:10,599 Speaker 1: is it could happen here. That's right. That's Robert talking. 1455 01:37:11,280 --> 01:37:15,920 Speaker 1: That's right. Also with us, Christopher Wong and Garrison Davis 1456 01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:22,640 Speaker 1: do your podcast. Yeah, So we're all gathering today on 1457 01:37:23,040 --> 01:37:25,599 Speaker 1: on the day after what I think we'll go down 1458 01:37:25,680 --> 01:37:28,839 Speaker 1: as the single most momentous moment in the twenty one century. 1459 01:37:29,280 --> 01:37:33,760 Speaker 1: Will Smith slapped Chris Rock on stage at the Oscars. 1460 01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:37,800 Speaker 1: So the entire world has pivoted from obsession with the 1461 01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:42,960 Speaker 1: massive land war in Eastern Europe to discussing how Chris 1462 01:37:43,240 --> 01:37:45,800 Speaker 1: Rock getting slapped is like the massive land war in 1463 01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:51,439 Speaker 1: Eastern Europe or or eleven or nine eleven. Yes, yes, yes, 1464 01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:55,560 Speaker 1: So it's a it's an amazing, like an unprecedentedly incredible 1465 01:37:55,640 --> 01:37:59,000 Speaker 1: time to be on on Twitter right now. That said, 1466 01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:02,920 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about Nazi cat boys today. I've 1467 01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:05,759 Speaker 1: seen everyone's post on the subreddit being like, why aren't 1468 01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:09,120 Speaker 1: you guys giving blow by blows about the war in Ukraine? 1469 01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:13,280 Speaker 1: Then this is this is pressing topic, and we're going 1470 01:38:13,320 --> 01:38:17,479 Speaker 1: to talk about Nazi cat boys previous to the Chris 1471 01:38:17,640 --> 01:38:19,920 Speaker 1: Rock slap. This is the most pressing topic of the 1472 01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:23,600 Speaker 1: twenty one century. Um is why there's Nazi catboys? And 1473 01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:25,800 Speaker 1: now we're going to talk about it well, because I mean, 1474 01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:28,880 Speaker 1: the roots of the crisis in Ukraine are the different 1475 01:38:28,960 --> 01:38:33,840 Speaker 1: kinds of cat boys that Zelinsky and Putin are. Yes, 1476 01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:37,280 Speaker 1: Robert is fan art. Up, It's gonna be fine. I'm sure. 1477 01:38:37,320 --> 01:38:41,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll find some horrible fan art. Yes, m yeah, 1478 01:38:41,920 --> 01:38:44,639 Speaker 1: we have. We have to figure out if if Putin's 1479 01:38:44,640 --> 01:38:47,560 Speaker 1: ever watched Helsing, and then we'll build to know. So 1480 01:38:48,040 --> 01:38:50,040 Speaker 1: I don't know what that means, but okay, you're you're 1481 01:38:50,080 --> 01:38:56,519 Speaker 1: about to find out. So great we we have. We 1482 01:38:56,600 --> 01:38:59,120 Speaker 1: have gathered here today to talk about to talk about 1483 01:38:59,439 --> 01:39:02,559 Speaker 1: the curious case of why there are Nazi capboys. Um 1484 01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:08,680 Speaker 1: throut through one TikTok and Twitter pushed from boys and 1485 01:39:08,760 --> 01:39:12,519 Speaker 1: cat boys into kind of the cultural mainstream, plunging these 1486 01:39:12,640 --> 01:39:15,759 Speaker 1: once much more niche subcultures out of the dark depths 1487 01:39:15,840 --> 01:39:20,840 Speaker 1: of fortune, Reddit, Tumbler and discord and uh the latest 1488 01:39:20,880 --> 01:39:25,320 Speaker 1: rebirth of these kind of gender bending communities. It's pretty 1489 01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:29,800 Speaker 1: socially progressive and affirming. Uh. Like generally most most fem 1490 01:39:29,880 --> 01:39:33,280 Speaker 1: boys catboys are are lefties. There's a whole bunch of 1491 01:39:33,360 --> 01:39:36,439 Speaker 1: like Twitter communists. I'm sure there's a whole bunch of 1492 01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:39,920 Speaker 1: cat boys who like stalling or something. Um, but they're 1493 01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:44,040 Speaker 1: they're generally more generally more on the left. But but 1494 01:39:45,160 --> 01:39:48,639 Speaker 1: but for for those who've dug deeper into the history 1495 01:39:48,720 --> 01:39:52,000 Speaker 1: and origins of these Internet subcultures, you may have found 1496 01:39:52,040 --> 01:39:55,640 Speaker 1: a dark, racist, and hateful underbelly. So we're going to 1497 01:39:55,760 --> 01:39:59,160 Speaker 1: talk about that today. I do have to note, Garrison, 1498 01:39:59,200 --> 01:40:01,520 Speaker 1: as soon as you said that, I found a Stalinist 1499 01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:07,840 Speaker 1: catboy the Twitter. It's an incredible account. So the their 1500 01:40:07,960 --> 01:40:10,519 Speaker 1: their background image for their Twitter account is a picture 1501 01:40:10,640 --> 01:40:14,679 Speaker 1: of Dang Xiaoping and the Ayatollah of Iran having a meeting. 1502 01:40:16,040 --> 01:40:22,120 Speaker 1: Their their PfP is a lavender haired Uh. It's like 1503 01:40:22,200 --> 01:40:25,000 Speaker 1: a it's like an anime pic here avatar cat boy, yeah, 1504 01:40:25,560 --> 01:40:28,760 Speaker 1: with like a Soviet hat and then Marxist Leninist bisexual 1505 01:40:28,840 --> 01:40:32,920 Speaker 1: catboy stalin did nothing wrong at North Korea. Stand incredible. 1506 01:40:33,400 --> 01:40:38,639 Speaker 1: This is this is this is why the Left will 1507 01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:45,160 Speaker 1: never win. That's perfect. I'm pretty sure this is like 1508 01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:50,479 Speaker 1: illegal in those countries. It's it would have had this 1509 01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:53,760 Speaker 1: person shot In the second someone tried to describe a 1510 01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:56,800 Speaker 1: catboy to Joseph Stalin, he would have had this person executed. 1511 01:40:56,960 --> 01:40:59,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh wow, yeah, I see, I see it. Now, 1512 01:41:00,120 --> 01:41:03,800 Speaker 1: that is that is intense. You know. The thing is, 1513 01:41:04,080 --> 01:41:05,679 Speaker 1: this type of thing is not going to be uncommon. 1514 01:41:05,720 --> 01:41:07,519 Speaker 1: We're gonna be again, We're gonna be going into like 1515 01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:10,400 Speaker 1: actual fascists who are also cowboys, and obviously they would 1516 01:41:10,439 --> 01:41:13,439 Speaker 1: have been would have been killed for being degenerous as well. 1517 01:41:13,840 --> 01:41:15,720 Speaker 1: But now we're gonna kind of talk about how this 1518 01:41:15,880 --> 01:41:19,280 Speaker 1: how this kind of came to be. And I've been 1519 01:41:19,320 --> 01:41:21,479 Speaker 1: writing this for like over a year. Actually, I've interviewed 1520 01:41:21,479 --> 01:41:24,160 Speaker 1: a few people for this that I've kind of contributed 1521 01:41:24,280 --> 01:41:26,360 Speaker 1: to the script. And initially this was going to be 1522 01:41:26,400 --> 01:41:28,720 Speaker 1: conceived as a video. Um, and you can't really talk 1523 01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:31,800 Speaker 1: about these things in a video format without dressing up 1524 01:41:32,280 --> 01:41:36,240 Speaker 1: like a silly character. So I am. I'm wearing a 1525 01:41:36,439 --> 01:41:39,840 Speaker 1: very actually a very very high quality catboy outfend right now, 1526 01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:42,040 Speaker 1: which the audio will just have to you'll have to 1527 01:41:42,080 --> 01:41:44,320 Speaker 1: You'll have to see it through the audio, So good 1528 01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:49,519 Speaker 1: luck with that synesthesia. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, so you 1529 01:41:49,640 --> 01:41:52,200 Speaker 1: are at the same time, You've done that enough that 1530 01:41:52,439 --> 01:41:56,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that anyone really noticed. I've never dressed 1531 01:41:56,040 --> 01:41:58,719 Speaker 1: as a catboy for recording. Before you dress is something 1532 01:41:58,840 --> 01:42:02,160 Speaker 1: every other recording. That's true, I addrest as something I 1533 01:42:02,240 --> 01:42:06,840 Speaker 1: generally addresses something. So first section one, Section one, what 1534 01:42:07,120 --> 01:42:09,519 Speaker 1: is what is a cat boy? What? What is what 1535 01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:12,280 Speaker 1: is this? Um So? But first of all, of a 1536 01:42:12,320 --> 01:42:16,000 Speaker 1: few ground rules will be circling back too often. UM One, 1537 01:42:16,400 --> 01:42:20,120 Speaker 1: not all catboys and femboys identify as LGBT or queer. 1538 01:42:20,840 --> 01:42:24,000 Speaker 1: Um and two, gay people can still be racist. These 1539 01:42:24,040 --> 01:42:25,920 Speaker 1: are these, These are these, These are two points that 1540 01:42:25,920 --> 01:42:27,800 Speaker 1: we're gonna be coming back to over the course of 1541 01:42:27,880 --> 01:42:32,120 Speaker 1: these of these deep type episodes. So first things first, 1542 01:42:32,240 --> 01:42:34,200 Speaker 1: let's let's just define what a cat boy is for 1543 01:42:34,240 --> 01:42:36,519 Speaker 1: all of the boomers in the audience. Um And if 1544 01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:38,040 Speaker 1: you are, if you are a boomer listening to this, 1545 01:42:38,600 --> 01:42:41,880 Speaker 1: how why how did you find this? Why are why 1546 01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:44,280 Speaker 1: did you choose to listen to Garrison? The instant I 1547 01:42:44,400 --> 01:42:46,479 Speaker 1: became a boomer was the first time you tried to 1548 01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:50,360 Speaker 1: describe explain cat boys to me Like I I suddenly 1549 01:42:50,479 --> 01:42:54,559 Speaker 1: developed a strong opinion on hr Halderman because of because 1550 01:42:54,680 --> 01:43:01,760 Speaker 1: of me, you so administration Joe, but most simply, um, 1551 01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:04,760 Speaker 1: a cat boy. Is this what I'm doing right now? 1552 01:43:05,040 --> 01:43:11,080 Speaker 1: So someone who is kind of kind of boyish, who who? Who? 1553 01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:16,200 Speaker 1: Who sometimes enjoys dressing in cat like apparel? I guess 1554 01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:19,439 Speaker 1: it's like cat ears. It is different from furries from 1555 01:43:19,560 --> 01:43:23,479 Speaker 1: and we will we will get into this, um. I mean, 1556 01:43:23,640 --> 01:43:25,680 Speaker 1: but I'm I'm definitely less boyish than I first was 1557 01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:27,880 Speaker 1: when I wrote this like a year ago, now that 1558 01:43:27,920 --> 01:43:31,599 Speaker 1: I'm on recreational estrogen. But nevertheless, someone who's a boyish 1559 01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:34,360 Speaker 1: and dresses or likes to dress in cat like kind 1560 01:43:34,400 --> 01:43:40,320 Speaker 1: of uh outfits generally on an anime trajectory of aesthetics. Uh. 1561 01:43:40,680 --> 01:43:42,639 Speaker 1: Now this is this is this is different from furries 1562 01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:46,000 Speaker 1: from multiple reasons. The physical cat like attributes on catboys 1563 01:43:46,040 --> 01:43:50,719 Speaker 1: are mostly confined to ears and pause sometimes with tails, 1564 01:43:50,840 --> 01:43:54,200 Speaker 1: but it's it's iffy um. Whereas you know, furries like 1565 01:43:54,280 --> 01:43:55,880 Speaker 1: to have like the full first suit thing going on, 1566 01:43:56,240 --> 01:43:58,479 Speaker 1: whereas catboys they still have like human faces and they 1567 01:43:58,520 --> 01:44:01,120 Speaker 1: wear like human clothes. So this is actually a very 1568 01:44:01,200 --> 01:44:04,120 Speaker 1: key difference, which will lots of made costumes like and 1569 01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:06,320 Speaker 1: yes a lot and the other other big kind of 1570 01:44:06,400 --> 01:44:10,519 Speaker 1: recurring trope um is that is that well they well 1571 01:44:10,560 --> 01:44:13,559 Speaker 1: catboys you usually wear clothes, is that they usually dress 1572 01:44:13,680 --> 01:44:15,320 Speaker 1: up in something similar to like a French made outfit 1573 01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:19,200 Speaker 1: um or or like different outfits like anime girls will 1574 01:44:19,240 --> 01:44:22,960 Speaker 1: where so like the tennis skirt thing, but generally on 1575 01:44:23,080 --> 01:44:27,720 Speaker 1: a made outfit to anime trajectory. So despite despite the 1576 01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:30,640 Speaker 1: animal ears, right, despite like the furry cat ears, the 1577 01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:33,120 Speaker 1: catboy or cat girls saying has much more in common 1578 01:44:33,160 --> 01:44:35,680 Speaker 1: with the fenboy community than the furry community and a 1579 01:44:35,760 --> 01:44:38,400 Speaker 1: lot of instances but more more more on that later. 1580 01:44:38,720 --> 01:44:41,960 Speaker 1: So after some initial research into the Nazi cat boy meme, 1581 01:44:42,000 --> 01:44:45,400 Speaker 1: I decided it would be useful for tracing back the 1582 01:44:45,479 --> 01:44:48,000 Speaker 1: roots of this kind of odd online phenomenon to broaden 1583 01:44:48,040 --> 01:44:50,280 Speaker 1: the scope of research to include fem boys as well, 1584 01:44:50,960 --> 01:44:54,040 Speaker 1: which is syccimctly just cat boys without the cat part. 1585 01:44:54,280 --> 01:44:57,439 Speaker 1: It's like boys who or generally male identifying people who 1586 01:44:57,560 --> 01:45:01,800 Speaker 1: dressed in like feminine ways. Um. Not a lot of 1587 01:45:01,840 --> 01:45:03,880 Speaker 1: fen boys will turn out to be trans and not 1588 01:45:04,040 --> 01:45:05,880 Speaker 1: all of them do a lot of fen boys and 1589 01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:08,439 Speaker 1: identify as straight. But you know, i'd like to wear 1590 01:45:08,600 --> 01:45:12,040 Speaker 1: you know, boys generally kind of in the twink of 1591 01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:16,840 Speaker 1: variety who likes to wear skirts, dresses, whatever. So I 1592 01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:18,519 Speaker 1: have a much of it a dissection to which gets 1593 01:45:18,520 --> 01:45:20,920 Speaker 1: a little bit more silly. Um but but yeah, so 1594 01:45:21,360 --> 01:45:25,639 Speaker 1: m boys, it's excited this. This doesn't get less silly 1595 01:45:25,680 --> 01:45:28,200 Speaker 1: as we go on. But but yeah, catboys, feen boys. 1596 01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:31,080 Speaker 1: Feen boys identify as male dress up in more stereotyptically 1597 01:45:31,120 --> 01:45:34,599 Speaker 1: feminine ways. There's a lot of similarity and crossover between 1598 01:45:34,640 --> 01:45:37,559 Speaker 1: fen boys and catboys. Um. But since fenboys have more 1599 01:45:37,560 --> 01:45:40,560 Speaker 1: of an established online history, uh, including them in the 1600 01:45:40,600 --> 01:45:42,200 Speaker 1: research seems like the best way to kind of dig 1601 01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:47,120 Speaker 1: into like the fascist femboy nazi catboy idea. So, speaking 1602 01:45:47,160 --> 01:45:50,920 Speaker 1: of section two, the racist femboy meme the past the 1603 01:45:50,920 --> 01:45:53,479 Speaker 1: past few years, there's been kind of a growing meme 1604 01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:56,600 Speaker 1: and perception across social media that fem boys are like 1605 01:45:56,840 --> 01:46:01,320 Speaker 1: really racist, um and just kind of pretty fashion in general, um, 1606 01:46:01,880 --> 01:46:04,680 Speaker 1: even really homophobic and transphobic and a lot of in 1607 01:46:04,760 --> 01:46:06,880 Speaker 1: a lot of senses, as much as a homophobic or 1608 01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:11,040 Speaker 1: transphobic femboy may see them contradictory at first. But again, 1609 01:46:11,200 --> 01:46:14,800 Speaker 1: more more on this later. Um. So when I'm talking 1610 01:46:14,840 --> 01:46:17,280 Speaker 1: about this going forward, I'm probably gonna be mixing words 1611 01:46:17,560 --> 01:46:22,280 Speaker 1: in terms like nazi and fascist all right or far right. Now, 1612 01:46:22,479 --> 01:46:24,560 Speaker 1: not not all of these racist femboys are what I 1613 01:46:24,600 --> 01:46:28,200 Speaker 1: would call Nazis by any means um and not not 1614 01:46:28,400 --> 01:46:31,840 Speaker 1: not all advocate for even joke about genocide, but there 1615 01:46:31,880 --> 01:46:35,640 Speaker 1: were absolutely recruitment attempts from self described Nazis. And you know, 1616 01:46:35,800 --> 01:46:38,840 Speaker 1: the line between jokes and actual beliefs is intentionally very 1617 01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:42,760 Speaker 1: foggy in this kind of internet subculture. So I'll kind 1618 01:46:42,760 --> 01:46:46,200 Speaker 1: of be lazily lumping together everything from racist to far 1619 01:46:46,320 --> 01:46:49,320 Speaker 1: far right wing folks for the sake of simplicity, because 1620 01:46:49,320 --> 01:46:52,000 Speaker 1: it's all like in the same spectrum. And like I 1621 01:46:52,080 --> 01:46:54,280 Speaker 1: mentioned at the beginning, not all femboys and cat boys 1622 01:46:54,320 --> 01:46:57,160 Speaker 1: identify as being queer, um, and gay people can still 1623 01:46:57,160 --> 01:46:58,840 Speaker 1: be racist. These there are these are points we're going 1624 01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:02,320 Speaker 1: to be circling back to a lot. So at this 1625 01:47:02,439 --> 01:47:06,840 Speaker 1: point the alright femboy meme has kind of actually overshadowed 1626 01:47:06,920 --> 01:47:10,439 Speaker 1: the actual phenomenon of it happening. Right in the past 1627 01:47:10,479 --> 01:47:13,760 Speaker 1: few years, the popularity of leftist fem boys has skyrocketed. 1628 01:47:14,320 --> 01:47:17,519 Speaker 1: Yet if you still do digging on like Twitter or Discord, 1629 01:47:17,840 --> 01:47:20,840 Speaker 1: you can indeed fed users who appear to be fem boys, 1630 01:47:20,880 --> 01:47:25,880 Speaker 1: but are also everything from racist to just openly fascist. Now, naturally, 1631 01:47:25,960 --> 01:47:28,640 Speaker 1: that leaves people wondering how can one have such a 1632 01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:33,200 Speaker 1: kind of contradictory lifestyle and belief system, which leads us 1633 01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:36,400 Speaker 1: to Section three. The Internet and that's it. That's kind 1634 01:47:36,439 --> 01:47:37,960 Speaker 1: of that's kind of the answer. We that's we can 1635 01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:41,080 Speaker 1: kind of pack it up here. Um, that's the answer. 1636 01:47:41,200 --> 01:47:43,200 Speaker 1: It's the Internet. That's that's why that that's why this 1637 01:47:43,280 --> 01:47:49,680 Speaker 1: has happened. That's what I'm getting out of this. Yeah, sure, whatever, whatever, 1638 01:47:49,800 --> 01:47:52,800 Speaker 1: it's it's Garrison. Are you are you are? Have you 1639 01:47:52,880 --> 01:47:55,240 Speaker 1: been caught up on why people say, I'll Gore invented 1640 01:47:55,240 --> 01:47:59,639 Speaker 1: the Internet? On where that joke came from? Are you? Oh? Boy, 1641 01:48:00,320 --> 01:48:03,120 Speaker 1: you have to you have to remember Chris Carrison's no 1642 01:48:06,640 --> 01:48:09,760 Speaker 1: was so there was like al Gore was among a 1643 01:48:09,840 --> 01:48:12,760 Speaker 1: bunch of different people who like voted to fund some 1644 01:48:12,880 --> 01:48:15,920 Speaker 1: of the different government kind of projects that became the Internet, right, 1645 01:48:16,000 --> 01:48:18,360 Speaker 1: like you had the rpnet and ship all that stuff. 1646 01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:21,679 Speaker 1: Like he was one of the people who like pushed 1647 01:48:21,760 --> 01:48:24,200 Speaker 1: that and then in the debate with George Bush while 1648 01:48:24,280 --> 01:48:28,840 Speaker 1: running for president in UH two thousand, he uh like 1649 01:48:29,120 --> 01:48:33,439 Speaker 1: basically made some claims that you could uncharitably translate as 1650 01:48:33,479 --> 01:48:36,439 Speaker 1: him saying that he invented the internet. Um, he didn't 1651 01:48:36,439 --> 01:48:38,479 Speaker 1: actually say that. It was more like he was saying, well, I, 1652 01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:41,800 Speaker 1: you know, supported from an early stage the development of 1653 01:48:41,840 --> 01:48:45,120 Speaker 1: the Internet. But it got turned into like al Gore 1654 01:48:45,360 --> 01:48:47,719 Speaker 1: claimed to have invented the Internet because it was funny. 1655 01:48:48,560 --> 01:48:51,640 Speaker 1: Ab yes, and and so now that's that's that's the 1656 01:48:51,720 --> 01:48:55,760 Speaker 1: joke is even though he didn't really, he just was 1657 01:48:55,880 --> 01:48:58,840 Speaker 1: not you know, but anyway there, so, well we can 1658 01:48:58,960 --> 01:49:00,960 Speaker 1: we can blame not the cap was on al Gore. 1659 01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:05,360 Speaker 1: Well that that does it for us today. Um, you 1660 01:49:05,400 --> 01:49:07,560 Speaker 1: can find us on Wait okay, we still have a 1661 01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:11,200 Speaker 1: we still have like half an episode to do. Alright, 1662 01:49:11,320 --> 01:49:15,640 Speaker 1: well here's here's speaking of of of al Gore and 1663 01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:18,519 Speaker 1: the Internet. Here's some ads brought to you by the Internet. 1664 01:49:19,520 --> 01:49:23,120 Speaker 1: Ah boy, those ads were so good they made me 1665 01:49:23,280 --> 01:49:33,000 Speaker 1: wanna be a cat. Okay, all right, wow, moving on. Uh. 1666 01:49:33,320 --> 01:49:35,439 Speaker 1: If you're in any way familiar with facism, you are 1667 01:49:35,600 --> 01:49:39,920 Speaker 1: probably aware that one of it's more consistent traits is 1668 01:49:39,960 --> 01:49:44,960 Speaker 1: that it's notoriously ideologically inconsistent. Um. So, for for this project, 1669 01:49:45,040 --> 01:49:48,080 Speaker 1: I interviewed multiple people who have a more personal history 1670 01:49:48,320 --> 01:49:51,760 Speaker 1: in the cat boy and femboy online communities than I do. UM. 1671 01:49:51,840 --> 01:49:54,200 Speaker 1: So those interviews plus my own online digging through like 1672 01:49:54,400 --> 01:49:58,799 Speaker 1: hundreds of threads from various form websites, I've I've literally 1673 01:49:58,840 --> 01:50:02,240 Speaker 1: looked through hundreds hundreds of the cat boy posts on Fortune. 1674 01:50:02,760 --> 01:50:04,680 Speaker 1: But doing doing all that has been very helpful for 1675 01:50:04,800 --> 01:50:08,040 Speaker 1: understanding kind of this intersection of politics and subculture. And 1676 01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:09,840 Speaker 1: since I did all this research, you don't need to, 1677 01:50:10,120 --> 01:50:12,479 Speaker 1: so there you go. Um. But one of the first 1678 01:50:12,560 --> 01:50:14,720 Speaker 1: kind of big takeaways I had after the research and 1679 01:50:14,760 --> 01:50:18,760 Speaker 1: interviews is that the nazi femboy catboy thing is not 1680 01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:22,240 Speaker 1: actually unique at all in terms of Internet radicalization. It 1681 01:50:22,360 --> 01:50:26,719 Speaker 1: just has some aesthetic abnormalities that can confuse on liquors 1682 01:50:27,080 --> 01:50:30,559 Speaker 1: or normal ease, which makes the internet phenomenon seen more 1683 01:50:30,600 --> 01:50:34,040 Speaker 1: outlandish than that actually is. But before we dig deeper 1684 01:50:34,120 --> 01:50:35,800 Speaker 1: into this litter box of hate, I would like to 1685 01:50:36,560 --> 01:50:41,559 Speaker 1: divide the femboy and catboy kind of racism spectrum into 1686 01:50:41,600 --> 01:50:45,600 Speaker 1: actually to two assistinct categories. First, um, we have we 1687 01:50:45,720 --> 01:50:48,400 Speaker 1: have type one, which I'm calling the fem fast people 1688 01:50:48,439 --> 01:50:51,400 Speaker 1: who are initially into the femboy community and aesthetic and 1689 01:50:51,560 --> 01:50:54,160 Speaker 1: then got introduced into far right politics online. And then 1690 01:50:54,200 --> 01:50:56,439 Speaker 1: we have type two, the fasci fem people who were 1691 01:50:56,479 --> 01:50:59,599 Speaker 1: already into far right politics and only then got introduced 1692 01:50:59,680 --> 01:51:03,360 Speaker 1: to the femboy community online. So I I usually break 1693 01:51:03,400 --> 01:51:07,240 Speaker 1: down lots of instances of fascists mixing with various subcultures 1694 01:51:07,320 --> 01:51:10,439 Speaker 1: into these like similar like to two categories of people 1695 01:51:10,479 --> 01:51:12,960 Speaker 1: starting off with politics and then getting into the culture, 1696 01:51:12,960 --> 01:51:14,439 Speaker 1: and the people starting off with the culture then getting 1697 01:51:14,439 --> 01:51:17,280 Speaker 1: into politics. I think it's actually kind it's useful for 1698 01:51:17,360 --> 01:51:19,639 Speaker 1: understanding a whole bunch of how there's like differences between 1699 01:51:19,640 --> 01:51:24,400 Speaker 1: different types of fascist people in various subcultures. So these 1700 01:51:24,760 --> 01:51:26,439 Speaker 1: two types I'm gonna I'm gonna be using to help 1701 01:51:26,520 --> 01:51:30,040 Speaker 1: to help talk about these different kind of strains of 1702 01:51:30,439 --> 01:51:34,920 Speaker 1: of the fascist femboy. For for now, we're gonna focus 1703 01:51:35,040 --> 01:51:38,080 Speaker 1: on the first one, the fem fast. So let's let's 1704 01:51:38,200 --> 01:51:42,639 Speaker 1: let's wind let's wind the clocks back. Let's say a decade. Broadly, 1705 01:51:42,760 --> 01:51:46,599 Speaker 1: gay people can't get married, and to most kids, trans 1706 01:51:46,720 --> 01:51:49,720 Speaker 1: people are ostensibly a myth um. So what kind of 1707 01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:51,960 Speaker 1: person is going to become a femboy in this in 1708 01:51:52,040 --> 01:51:55,559 Speaker 1: this type of in this type of environment. Simplest answer 1709 01:51:55,760 --> 01:51:58,599 Speaker 1: is like a certain sect of social outcasts and anime nerds, 1710 01:51:59,000 --> 01:52:01,840 Speaker 1: as well as some people who maybe don't consciously know 1711 01:52:02,200 --> 01:52:05,240 Speaker 1: or accept that they're queer yet. Really the only way 1712 01:52:05,280 --> 01:52:07,800 Speaker 1: to get initially exposed to the fembo aesthetic back then 1713 01:52:08,280 --> 01:52:12,799 Speaker 1: was via anime, manga, anti porn, and you know, select 1714 01:52:13,120 --> 01:52:17,599 Speaker 1: video games, specifically multiplayer games, and random and internet browsing. 1715 01:52:17,720 --> 01:52:19,000 Speaker 1: Right this, this is, this is how you're gonna get 1716 01:52:19,080 --> 01:52:21,960 Speaker 1: exposed to this type of aesthetic. In fact, one of 1717 01:52:22,040 --> 01:52:24,840 Speaker 1: the probably the old example of a Nazi catboy is 1718 01:52:24,880 --> 01:52:27,400 Speaker 1: from an anime called hell Singh where they had they 1719 01:52:27,479 --> 01:52:31,600 Speaker 1: had this Nazi catboy character who is the who was 1720 01:52:31,680 --> 01:52:34,160 Speaker 1: the source of a lot of Nazi catboy memes on 1721 01:52:34,240 --> 01:52:37,880 Speaker 1: fortune Like, it's a very very popular meme figure um, 1722 01:52:38,160 --> 01:52:39,479 Speaker 1: And this is I think a lot of where that 1723 01:52:39,680 --> 01:52:42,400 Speaker 1: aesthetic tied to fascism actually really starts from. But of 1724 01:52:42,439 --> 01:52:45,559 Speaker 1: course there's a lot of fascist fans of anime in general, 1725 01:52:45,960 --> 01:52:49,120 Speaker 1: so that the type of aesthetics that the type of 1726 01:52:49,160 --> 01:52:52,880 Speaker 1: aesthetics of femininity that anime kind of presents get used 1727 01:52:52,920 --> 01:52:55,160 Speaker 1: by fascism a lot. Even among like they're more like 1728 01:52:55,200 --> 01:52:57,479 Speaker 1: a cottage core styles, it's still a that very like 1729 01:52:57,600 --> 01:53:02,599 Speaker 1: patriarchal um type of inity that is popular among Japanese animation. 1730 01:53:03,200 --> 01:53:05,760 Speaker 1: So now, the reasons that someone might be drawn to 1731 01:53:05,840 --> 01:53:09,439 Speaker 1: this specific community can vary from person to person. Maybe 1732 01:53:09,479 --> 01:53:11,439 Speaker 1: they just don't feel as connected to like the hyper 1733 01:53:11,560 --> 01:53:15,560 Speaker 1: macho masculine style that American culture promotes. Maybe it's a 1734 01:53:15,600 --> 01:53:18,400 Speaker 1: way to get attention and validation, or maybe you just 1735 01:53:18,520 --> 01:53:21,240 Speaker 1: like wearing skirts or find it kind of hot. There's, 1736 01:53:21,560 --> 01:53:23,559 Speaker 1: but there's, and there's there's always the possibility that someone 1737 01:53:23,680 --> 01:53:25,360 Speaker 1: is transfer gain they just don't fully know it yet. 1738 01:53:25,640 --> 01:53:28,160 Speaker 1: This is the case with a lot of these people actually, Um, 1739 01:53:28,840 --> 01:53:30,760 Speaker 1: but some of some of you may be surprised to 1740 01:53:30,800 --> 01:53:34,680 Speaker 1: hear that before our modern TikTok femboy craze, most fem 1741 01:53:34,760 --> 01:53:38,400 Speaker 1: boys did self identify as straight ancests. Uh. There is 1742 01:53:38,439 --> 01:53:41,000 Speaker 1: a lot of reasons for this, including like increased omophobia 1743 01:53:41,080 --> 01:53:44,200 Speaker 1: and transphobia back then, plus like non binary was hardly 1744 01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:47,640 Speaker 1: even the thing like culturally at that at that point. UM. 1745 01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:49,720 Speaker 1: One of the people I interviewed for this project talked 1746 01:53:49,720 --> 01:53:52,600 Speaker 1: about how some of the cis straight fem boys he 1747 01:53:52,680 --> 01:53:56,880 Speaker 1: knew back then now do identify as trans or queer. Um, 1748 01:53:57,000 --> 01:53:59,120 Speaker 1: but back then that wasn't really the case. Um. The 1749 01:53:59,160 --> 01:54:01,920 Speaker 1: other person I interviewed before this called themselves asis gender 1750 01:54:01,960 --> 01:54:04,479 Speaker 1: femboy at the time of the interview, but has now 1751 01:54:04,600 --> 01:54:06,720 Speaker 1: since come out as trans. So, like it says, it 1752 01:54:06,840 --> 01:54:09,439 Speaker 1: is definitely a recurring pattern, but it's not a thing 1753 01:54:09,479 --> 01:54:11,479 Speaker 1: for everybody, Like there is definitely like a lot, like 1754 01:54:11,560 --> 01:54:13,960 Speaker 1: a lot of these people do call themselves straight even 1755 01:54:14,000 --> 01:54:16,840 Speaker 1: still now, UM, and that is something that a lot 1756 01:54:16,880 --> 01:54:19,000 Speaker 1: of kind of people don't have a don't have the 1757 01:54:19,040 --> 01:54:22,160 Speaker 1: easiest time kind of comprehending that's gonna what I'm gonna 1758 01:54:22,320 --> 01:54:26,280 Speaker 1: kind of try to get into. So let's let's let's 1759 01:54:26,320 --> 01:54:29,840 Speaker 1: say you're a kid, young teen and like eleven, you're 1760 01:54:29,880 --> 01:54:33,240 Speaker 1: getting into anime and video games. What kind of websites 1761 01:54:33,240 --> 01:54:35,440 Speaker 1: are you gonna gravitate to? Right, You're gonna gravitate to 1762 01:54:35,600 --> 01:54:39,240 Speaker 1: read It, You're gonna gravitate to four Chan, especially in right. 1763 01:54:39,280 --> 01:54:41,160 Speaker 1: These are the these are kind of the cultural mecchas 1764 01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:44,640 Speaker 1: of of those types of type type types of subcultures. 1765 01:54:44,800 --> 01:54:48,640 Speaker 1: So what is prelevant on these websites? Well, on four Chan, 1766 01:54:48,840 --> 01:54:52,400 Speaker 1: we have a slash B which is their random channel UM, 1767 01:54:52,480 --> 01:54:55,080 Speaker 1: which also has a not safe work designation, and it's 1768 01:54:55,320 --> 01:54:58,720 Speaker 1: was often flooded with femboy picks um, and since there 1769 01:54:58,760 --> 01:55:01,600 Speaker 1: are so few female users of that site, you see 1770 01:55:01,600 --> 01:55:04,800 Speaker 1: a lot of hentai and occasionally boys dressing up like 1771 01:55:04,960 --> 01:55:08,000 Speaker 1: not safe for work female anime characters, just because there's 1772 01:55:08,640 --> 01:55:12,120 Speaker 1: people still like femininity, but there's so few actual girls 1773 01:55:12,200 --> 01:55:14,440 Speaker 1: using those sites. At the femininity that you see is 1774 01:55:14,480 --> 01:55:18,080 Speaker 1: either through anime or it's through kind of cross dressing um. 1775 01:55:18,160 --> 01:55:20,480 Speaker 1: And then there's also the slash d page which is 1776 01:55:20,520 --> 01:55:23,160 Speaker 1: just completely dedicated to henta I. So you get a 1777 01:55:23,240 --> 01:55:25,240 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of a lot of that type 1778 01:55:25,280 --> 01:55:28,240 Speaker 1: of like anime style of femininity through kind of that 1779 01:55:28,400 --> 01:55:32,600 Speaker 1: that type of appropriation and and fetishization on the slash 1780 01:55:32,640 --> 01:55:35,920 Speaker 1: d page. So there's there's a decent chance that anime 1781 01:55:36,080 --> 01:55:39,040 Speaker 1: and gaming nerds that browse their interests online will get 1782 01:55:39,080 --> 01:55:42,560 Speaker 1: exposed to fen boy staff at some point. Right nowadays, 1783 01:55:42,680 --> 01:55:45,080 Speaker 1: it's discord, used to be fortune and used to be 1784 01:55:45,120 --> 01:55:49,240 Speaker 1: read it. So it becomes this type of figure right 1785 01:55:49,240 --> 01:55:51,920 Speaker 1: infinity loop of people who are exposed to something and 1786 01:55:52,040 --> 01:55:54,600 Speaker 1: then start propagating it and get exposed to new people 1787 01:55:54,640 --> 01:55:57,640 Speaker 1: to it, And it's just like continuous cycle. Because if 1788 01:55:57,720 --> 01:55:59,640 Speaker 1: if you're a kid who discovers they kind of like 1789 01:55:59,840 --> 01:56:02,840 Speaker 1: the super niche almost taboo thing. Where are you going 1790 01:56:02,920 --> 01:56:05,200 Speaker 1: to go to find other like minded people? You're gonna 1791 01:56:05,200 --> 01:56:07,720 Speaker 1: go back to online multiplayer gaming, Reddit and four chane. 1792 01:56:07,760 --> 01:56:09,600 Speaker 1: It's it's it's it's all. It's all the same circles. 1793 01:56:10,040 --> 01:56:12,160 Speaker 1: So if if even if you don't get exposed to 1794 01:56:12,200 --> 01:56:14,240 Speaker 1: it in places like four chun, you're probably gonna end 1795 01:56:14,320 --> 01:56:19,640 Speaker 1: up there or somewhere similar regardless, and the other other 1796 01:56:19,760 --> 01:56:21,840 Speaker 1: and and the other thing that's important to talk about, 1797 01:56:22,360 --> 01:56:24,640 Speaker 1: which is going to talk about like how how the 1798 01:56:24,720 --> 01:56:27,800 Speaker 1: femboys start getting into politics is like who else is 1799 01:56:27,920 --> 01:56:31,560 Speaker 1: very prevalent and actively recruiting on these types of sites 1800 01:56:31,680 --> 01:56:34,480 Speaker 1: with on like on multiplayer gaming, on Reddit and four chan. 1801 01:56:35,240 --> 01:56:39,080 Speaker 1: It's it's nazis right that the people who are who 1802 01:56:39,120 --> 01:56:42,840 Speaker 1: are into very far right politics trying to mask trying 1803 01:56:42,840 --> 01:56:45,040 Speaker 1: to mask some of their beliefs initially in like humor 1804 01:56:45,120 --> 01:56:47,280 Speaker 1: and memes. You know, a lot of large, large part 1805 01:56:47,320 --> 01:56:50,000 Speaker 1: of an Internet radicalization is done through is done through memes, 1806 01:56:50,080 --> 01:56:53,920 Speaker 1: especially especially back in there's like so so many like memes. 1807 01:56:54,280 --> 01:56:57,840 Speaker 1: Memes as a social and recruitment tool, we're very very common, 1808 01:56:58,440 --> 01:57:00,120 Speaker 1: especially on like you know, if you're on like an 1809 01:57:00,160 --> 01:57:02,680 Speaker 1: image board. That that's the whole point is that you're 1810 01:57:03,000 --> 01:57:06,840 Speaker 1: sharing images. Um. So a big part of this overrepresentation 1811 01:57:07,000 --> 01:57:10,520 Speaker 1: of racists in the femboy community was simply the online 1812 01:57:10,560 --> 01:57:15,240 Speaker 1: proximity between these groups of people, between the femboys and 1813 01:57:15,280 --> 01:57:17,200 Speaker 1: then the fascists on four Chan or they read it 1814 01:57:17,320 --> 01:57:19,920 Speaker 1: in certain online games. Will it be like Second Life, 1815 01:57:20,320 --> 01:57:23,080 Speaker 1: whether it be like mms, you know, all these types 1816 01:57:23,120 --> 01:57:25,120 Speaker 1: of places and in any place that you can design 1817 01:57:25,160 --> 01:57:27,240 Speaker 1: your own character as well, You've got got a lot 1818 01:57:27,280 --> 01:57:31,000 Speaker 1: of this type of like anime femboy type thing, because 1819 01:57:31,080 --> 01:57:32,600 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of these games that are 1820 01:57:32,640 --> 01:57:36,640 Speaker 1: main in Japan can like give like more feminine options 1821 01:57:36,760 --> 01:57:39,800 Speaker 1: for like male characters, or just have like cowboy like 1822 01:57:40,000 --> 01:57:44,680 Speaker 1: years and stuff available as a cosmetic option. So a 1823 01:57:44,800 --> 01:57:47,360 Speaker 1: lot a lot of this fetish fetishization that we see 1824 01:57:47,400 --> 01:57:49,280 Speaker 1: on four Chan and on the and in the early 1825 01:57:49,320 --> 01:57:52,839 Speaker 1: two thousands and twentieens is now is now applied to Discord. 1826 01:57:52,920 --> 01:57:55,720 Speaker 1: Like this, you did kind of carry over four trans 1827 01:57:55,760 --> 01:57:58,400 Speaker 1: obviously not the kind of cultural behemoth that it used 1828 01:57:58,440 --> 01:58:00,320 Speaker 1: to be. A lot of this stuff just happens on 1829 01:58:00,400 --> 01:58:02,920 Speaker 1: Discord now, um, where you can kind of cultivate online 1830 01:58:02,920 --> 01:58:07,000 Speaker 1: communities that are more self contained. So throughout the entirety 1831 01:58:07,040 --> 01:58:10,800 Speaker 1: of the twenteen's, fascism was pretty successful infesting among nerd 1832 01:58:10,960 --> 01:58:14,160 Speaker 1: spaces right nerds and geeks of many types, whether that 1833 01:58:14,280 --> 01:58:18,160 Speaker 1: be gaming or anime or these more like esoteric communities 1834 01:58:18,800 --> 01:58:23,280 Speaker 1: esotericism like niche um. But these communities generally they attract 1835 01:58:23,360 --> 01:58:27,280 Speaker 1: people who are more disenfranchised right and them boys generally 1836 01:58:27,360 --> 01:58:29,960 Speaker 1: feel disenfranchised in one way or another, which just pushes 1837 01:58:30,000 --> 01:58:33,320 Speaker 1: them into these, you know, less mainstream subculture. At this point, 1838 01:58:33,520 --> 01:58:36,160 Speaker 1: they can be pretty easy targets for fascist recruiters to 1839 01:58:36,200 --> 01:58:38,760 Speaker 1: start suggesting that maybe some of their problems in the 1840 01:58:38,840 --> 01:58:43,000 Speaker 1: world are actually coming from feminism, immigrants, dealing jobs, affirmative action, 1841 01:58:43,400 --> 01:58:45,960 Speaker 1: and slowly leading into talk of like i Q and 1842 01:58:46,080 --> 01:58:49,440 Speaker 1: racism and anti semitism. So for those who found these 1843 01:58:49,480 --> 01:58:52,640 Speaker 1: ideas initially like abhorrent, uh, it can be explained at 1844 01:58:52,640 --> 01:58:55,360 Speaker 1: all this talk and simply edgy jokes in irony attempting 1845 01:58:55,400 --> 01:58:57,160 Speaker 1: to trigger the enormies, which is a big part of 1846 01:58:57,600 --> 01:59:01,800 Speaker 1: that type of propagation of this type of humor and 1847 01:59:01,920 --> 01:59:05,000 Speaker 1: then politics masses humor on these sites and on these 1848 01:59:05,080 --> 01:59:08,720 Speaker 1: like gaming chats. This isn't unique to fen Boys or 1849 01:59:08,800 --> 01:59:12,280 Speaker 1: cathboys in any way. Right, the more people I interviewed 1850 01:59:12,320 --> 01:59:14,160 Speaker 1: and the more kind of old forms that I read, 1851 01:59:14,520 --> 01:59:18,520 Speaker 1: I started to actually see stuff that seemed much more familiar. Um. 1852 01:59:18,600 --> 01:59:20,760 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of parallels between this far right 1853 01:59:20,840 --> 01:59:24,960 Speaker 1: fenboy thing and the far right Fury phenomenon, which I 1854 01:59:25,040 --> 01:59:28,240 Speaker 1: know Robert and the Worst Year Ever podcast put together 1855 01:59:28,360 --> 01:59:31,000 Speaker 1: two episodes that do a great job kind of talking 1856 01:59:31,040 --> 01:59:34,600 Speaker 1: about the far right episode of the Worst Year Ever 1857 01:59:34,680 --> 01:59:39,480 Speaker 1: that we ever got to do. Yeah, yeah, it could 1858 01:59:39,480 --> 01:59:42,920 Speaker 1: do because I guess just briefly kind of talk about 1859 01:59:43,000 --> 01:59:46,120 Speaker 1: the furry the furry kind of thing and how that 1860 01:59:46,760 --> 01:59:49,320 Speaker 1: because there's there's a lot of there's Even though these 1861 01:59:49,360 --> 01:59:52,560 Speaker 1: cultures are different between fen boys and Furies, the tactics 1862 01:59:52,720 --> 01:59:55,839 Speaker 1: that fascists used to get into these communities is exactly 1863 01:59:55,880 --> 01:59:58,120 Speaker 1: the same. Um, and it kind of plays on the 1864 01:59:58,200 --> 02:00:02,960 Speaker 1: same same tropes. Yeah, it's weird, so you've got I 1865 02:00:03,080 --> 02:00:06,400 Speaker 1: think it kind of hearkens to the fact that like 1866 02:00:06,600 --> 02:00:09,800 Speaker 1: whenever you have a fandom, no matter kind of what 1867 02:00:09,960 --> 02:00:12,560 Speaker 1: the fandom is about or the message of the media 1868 02:00:12,680 --> 02:00:15,720 Speaker 1: it's about, you're going to have like Nazis in it. Um. 1869 02:00:15,960 --> 02:00:18,600 Speaker 1: And and that's obviously like Star Wars, right, where the 1870 02:00:18,680 --> 02:00:22,480 Speaker 1: point of Star Wars is Empire, bad empire. Basically space 1871 02:00:22,680 --> 02:00:25,360 Speaker 1: Nazis bad guys. And there's a whole bunch of people 1872 02:00:25,400 --> 02:00:27,960 Speaker 1: who have just like made that into their life and 1873 02:00:28,040 --> 02:00:31,000 Speaker 1: get tattoos of the imperial sigil or whatever on their 1874 02:00:31,000 --> 02:00:34,480 Speaker 1: fucking chest. Or you've got like Disney movies where like 1875 02:00:34,560 --> 02:00:39,240 Speaker 1: there's these there's weirdos who will take far right nationalist 1876 02:00:39,320 --> 02:00:43,000 Speaker 1: messages at it, like every like everything everything has its Nazis. 1877 02:00:43,080 --> 02:00:45,840 Speaker 1: The punk community, right, punk music is supposed to be 1878 02:00:45,920 --> 02:00:49,440 Speaker 1: anti authoritarian um and kind of inherently left wing, but 1879 02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:53,919 Speaker 1: there's Nazi punks, so like it's all like every community 1880 02:00:54,040 --> 02:00:56,360 Speaker 1: has their Nazis, and the Furies are no different. One 1881 02:00:56,400 --> 02:00:58,360 Speaker 1: of the things that does make the Furies different is, 1882 02:00:58,400 --> 02:01:03,000 Speaker 1: I think because of how and this this is something 1883 02:01:03,080 --> 02:01:04,680 Speaker 1: probably you're a little too young, and I guess a 1884 02:01:04,720 --> 02:01:06,960 Speaker 1: lot of our audience may have missed out on aspects 1885 02:01:07,000 --> 02:01:09,960 Speaker 1: of but like early on in the Internet, and I'm 1886 02:01:10,000 --> 02:01:13,600 Speaker 1: talking like the first decade of actual Internet culture, from 1887 02:01:13,680 --> 02:01:17,600 Speaker 1: like ninety six to two five or six, which is 1888 02:01:17,640 --> 02:01:20,680 Speaker 1: really the first decade of like mass Internet culture. The 1889 02:01:21,280 --> 02:01:24,200 Speaker 1: punching bag of the entire Internet was was furries. Like 1890 02:01:24,320 --> 02:01:26,360 Speaker 1: they were the people that like it was the safest 1891 02:01:26,440 --> 02:01:29,520 Speaker 1: to make fun of, um, jokes about like killing them, 1892 02:01:29,560 --> 02:01:32,320 Speaker 1: all sorts of really fucked up shit. Um. And so 1893 02:01:32,480 --> 02:01:36,560 Speaker 1: I think they developed kind of this um very strong 1894 02:01:36,720 --> 02:01:40,240 Speaker 1: defensive impulse within the community. And so while every subculture 1895 02:01:40,280 --> 02:01:42,760 Speaker 1: has their Nazis, the Furies have gone kind of the 1896 02:01:42,840 --> 02:01:48,320 Speaker 1: furthest in documenting and um working to like ostracize those people. 1897 02:01:48,440 --> 02:01:51,880 Speaker 1: And they've done. They're on the level with like punks 1898 02:01:51,920 --> 02:01:54,240 Speaker 1: in terms of the degree to which they have Like 1899 02:01:54,440 --> 02:01:56,720 Speaker 1: that has become kind of a guided principle for a 1900 02:01:56,800 --> 02:01:59,480 Speaker 1: lot of Furies. Um. Yeah, is that kind of what 1901 02:01:59,560 --> 02:02:03,400 Speaker 1: you're looking for? Yeah, because a big a big and 1902 02:02:03,840 --> 02:02:06,040 Speaker 1: the thing you mentioned about like furries being such the 1903 02:02:06,080 --> 02:02:09,200 Speaker 1: punching bag, that's something that's that's something that Nazis even 1904 02:02:09,240 --> 02:02:11,560 Speaker 1: definitely kind of grasp onto as a way to do 1905 02:02:11,720 --> 02:02:15,400 Speaker 1: grooming and recruitment. Right is if if if, if, if 1906 02:02:15,480 --> 02:02:18,280 Speaker 1: fascists can present themselves as friends to these people who 1907 02:02:18,320 --> 02:02:21,520 Speaker 1: are always punched down upon, then they can kind of 1908 02:02:21,720 --> 02:02:23,560 Speaker 1: put them into their in groups, right, they can they 1909 02:02:23,600 --> 02:02:25,800 Speaker 1: can support them, give them, give them a sense of validation. 1910 02:02:25,840 --> 02:02:28,120 Speaker 1: And give them a sense of a community, tell them 1911 02:02:28,240 --> 02:02:32,480 Speaker 1: like they they they belong. You're you're, you're you're always 1912 02:02:32,520 --> 02:02:34,560 Speaker 1: going to be kicked out of like like real life 1913 02:02:34,640 --> 02:02:37,080 Speaker 1: social groups. Right, you can only exist here with us. 1914 02:02:37,160 --> 02:02:39,920 Speaker 1: We're gonna we understand you. Like right, they can. They 1915 02:02:39,920 --> 02:02:42,760 Speaker 1: can kind of foster this thing, even though obviously it's 1916 02:02:42,840 --> 02:02:46,400 Speaker 1: dealing with things that are not the most like not 1917 02:02:46,560 --> 02:02:48,840 Speaker 1: the most like systems straight thing in terms of like 1918 02:02:48,960 --> 02:02:52,120 Speaker 1: regular heterosexuality. Um like at a lot of a lot 1919 02:02:52,160 --> 02:02:53,640 Speaker 1: of furries are straight, but like in terms of like 1920 02:02:53,680 --> 02:02:57,080 Speaker 1: the way they approach that is is definitely different than 1921 02:02:57,120 --> 02:02:59,880 Speaker 1: a lot of regular people. But they so white corom 1922 02:02:59,920 --> 02:03:02,720 Speaker 1: of systs and different fascists can like grasp onto this 1923 02:03:03,560 --> 02:03:05,800 Speaker 1: gr respond to this kind of disenfranchisement and offering this 1924 02:03:05,880 --> 02:03:09,680 Speaker 1: sense of community. Um be you know, be very friendly initially, 1925 02:03:09,760 --> 02:03:12,640 Speaker 1: be being very being very kind of open these people 1926 02:03:13,000 --> 02:03:15,000 Speaker 1: and start and start you know the term would be 1927 02:03:15,280 --> 02:03:17,680 Speaker 1: like red pilling them, right, um to talk about that 1928 02:03:17,680 --> 02:03:19,280 Speaker 1: a lot of their social issues are actually you know 1929 02:03:19,360 --> 02:03:22,440 Speaker 1: the fault of straws talking about these you know, all 1930 02:03:22,520 --> 02:03:25,120 Speaker 1: of these Jewish bankers. You know, it can start, you 1931 02:03:25,160 --> 02:03:28,440 Speaker 1: can start crafting the propaganda very carefully if you're friends 1932 02:03:28,480 --> 02:03:31,200 Speaker 1: with them first and then only starts slowly introducing them 1933 02:03:31,240 --> 02:03:34,960 Speaker 1: into your more extremist kind of view of politics. Yeah, 1934 02:03:35,040 --> 02:03:38,320 Speaker 1: it's just no one's really surprised when an anime nerd 1935 02:03:39,000 --> 02:03:42,560 Speaker 1: or like a capital G gamer starts spewing far right 1936 02:03:42,600 --> 02:03:46,320 Speaker 1: talking points, but when a femboy does, that just seems 1937 02:03:46,440 --> 02:03:49,560 Speaker 1: off because like, aren't they also a degenerate right like 1938 02:03:49,960 --> 02:03:51,640 Speaker 1: like it's like what there is a bit of a 1939 02:03:51,680 --> 02:03:55,960 Speaker 1: cognitive distance there um and like yes and no, Right, 1940 02:03:56,480 --> 02:03:58,840 Speaker 1: you may be over estimating some people's commitment to the 1941 02:03:58,920 --> 02:04:02,440 Speaker 1: fascist cause here because an occurring pattern I found, we're 1942 02:04:02,480 --> 02:04:05,280 Speaker 1: talking to people with history in these communities, especially if 1943 02:04:05,280 --> 02:04:07,680 Speaker 1: they're more of like the fem fashion variety, right, starting 1944 02:04:07,760 --> 02:04:10,320 Speaker 1: up starting off with them boys headaches, then getting into 1945 02:04:10,600 --> 02:04:13,800 Speaker 1: being racist and and and like like pretty racist and 1946 02:04:13,840 --> 02:04:17,240 Speaker 1: then getting into fascism. Is that look looking back these 1947 02:04:17,320 --> 02:04:20,520 Speaker 1: people and they say, like themselves and others, all of 1948 02:04:20,600 --> 02:04:23,840 Speaker 1: their kind of parenting of racist and fascist talking points, 1949 02:04:24,520 --> 02:04:28,400 Speaker 1: especially online, was like they claim much more due to 1950 02:04:29,280 --> 02:04:32,160 Speaker 1: having to like fit in with these with these already 1951 02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:36,200 Speaker 1: pretty reactionary online spaces um and make friends at seemingly 1952 02:04:36,280 --> 02:04:39,120 Speaker 1: one of the few places that people with similar interests gather. 1953 02:04:39,800 --> 02:04:41,960 Speaker 1: You know, some people deep down don't really care about 1954 02:04:42,000 --> 02:04:44,480 Speaker 1: the political beliefs that much, and we're we're still looking 1955 02:04:44,520 --> 02:04:46,880 Speaker 1: for a community. And it just so happened that back then, 1956 02:04:46,920 --> 02:04:50,440 Speaker 1: in the early the places where these communities of outcast 1957 02:04:50,520 --> 02:04:53,600 Speaker 1: found each other were also places that other outcasts used 1958 02:04:53,720 --> 02:04:57,880 Speaker 1: racism as a lazy attention seeking shock comedy and like 1959 02:04:58,000 --> 02:05:00,640 Speaker 1: the triggering of normies, which was basically like a sport 1960 02:05:00,800 --> 02:05:03,560 Speaker 1: on these on on these forums. Now obviously this is 1961 02:05:03,600 --> 02:05:07,080 Speaker 1: not excusing any horn behavior and or horrible things, but 1962 02:05:07,680 --> 02:05:11,720 Speaker 1: that whole idea, plus the active like grooming and the 1963 02:05:11,760 --> 02:05:15,560 Speaker 1: active recruitment from Nazis made the nerdy outcast to fascist 1964 02:05:15,600 --> 02:05:19,240 Speaker 1: pipeline that we see today. That's really how it built 1965 02:05:19,320 --> 02:05:21,200 Speaker 1: up and became such a powerful tool, you know, in 1966 02:05:21,240 --> 02:05:25,840 Speaker 1: around um. But there is there is the other. All 1967 02:05:25,880 --> 02:05:28,160 Speaker 1: of this just generally more applies to the people who 1968 02:05:28,200 --> 02:05:30,800 Speaker 1: were into fen boys edicts and then got kind of 1969 02:05:31,040 --> 02:05:35,040 Speaker 1: railroaded into into nationalism and too fascism. Right, it's because 1970 02:05:35,080 --> 02:05:39,000 Speaker 1: they they're fem boys on these platforms. There's also racists 1971 02:05:39,040 --> 02:05:41,560 Speaker 1: on these platforms, so these things start to kind of mix, 1972 02:05:42,040 --> 02:05:44,920 Speaker 1: But there's still that other type of femboy nazi um, 1973 02:05:45,000 --> 02:05:47,200 Speaker 1: the one who started off online with far right views 1974 02:05:47,640 --> 02:05:51,040 Speaker 1: and then discovered fem boys and started to feel things 1975 02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:54,440 Speaker 1: when we're starting by talking about them next on on 1976 02:05:54,680 --> 02:05:57,120 Speaker 1: on part two. But I guess does anyone anyone have 1977 02:05:57,160 --> 02:05:59,680 Speaker 1: any any questions at least to close off part one 1978 02:06:00,120 --> 02:06:02,640 Speaker 1: about the more kind of fem fast variety of people 1979 02:06:02,680 --> 02:06:07,480 Speaker 1: who are generally kind of more regular politically, um, but 1980 02:06:07,560 --> 02:06:10,000 Speaker 1: are into into like femboy and cowboy kind of aesthetics 1981 02:06:10,080 --> 02:06:12,200 Speaker 1: and then and then get put into into into more 1982 02:06:12,320 --> 02:06:20,040 Speaker 1: reactionary ideas. Mm hmmm, uh stay off the internet. Yeah, 1983 02:06:20,080 --> 02:06:22,120 Speaker 1: that's not a question, but yes, that is that is 1984 02:06:22,160 --> 02:06:24,680 Speaker 1: a that is a good uh, there's a good mission statement. 1985 02:06:25,080 --> 02:06:27,600 Speaker 1: But yeah, in terms of like, in terms of like 1986 02:06:27,680 --> 02:06:31,040 Speaker 1: the you know, this topic can whenever whenever I bring 1987 02:06:31,120 --> 02:06:32,800 Speaker 1: it up. I thought about this a lot when I've 1988 02:06:32,800 --> 02:06:34,840 Speaker 1: tried to explain it to people, there's always a bit 1989 02:06:34,880 --> 02:06:40,320 Speaker 1: of like that, how that doesn't make any sense? And 1990 02:06:40,720 --> 02:06:42,000 Speaker 1: I'll be gett into some of the more kind of 1991 02:06:42,080 --> 02:06:44,680 Speaker 1: semantics of it um in in part two, but at 1992 02:06:44,720 --> 02:06:46,840 Speaker 1: least at least for like the initial initial kind of 1993 02:06:47,160 --> 02:06:53,080 Speaker 1: dive into how the online community aspect is used as 1994 02:06:53,120 --> 02:06:55,880 Speaker 1: such a powerful tool for people who are feeling so 1995 02:06:56,040 --> 02:06:59,560 Speaker 1: alone that just the the idea of their being an 1996 02:06:59,560 --> 02:07:02,800 Speaker 1: online unity, whether it be racist or not, can is 1997 02:07:02,880 --> 02:07:06,440 Speaker 1: just super appealing. Because if if everyone thinks that you're 1998 02:07:06,480 --> 02:07:10,040 Speaker 1: weird in an outcast, if these other people who are 1999 02:07:10,080 --> 02:07:13,240 Speaker 1: also weird and outcasts start kind of trying to make 2000 02:07:13,320 --> 02:07:15,680 Speaker 1: friends with you, then it can be a very powerful 2001 02:07:15,760 --> 02:07:18,680 Speaker 1: like recruitment tool, um, which is then of course they'll 2002 02:07:18,760 --> 02:07:22,960 Speaker 1: they'll they'll be people, they'll be people who eventually try 2003 02:07:23,000 --> 02:07:25,080 Speaker 1: to like take them out of the whole femboy stetics 2004 02:07:25,120 --> 02:07:26,840 Speaker 1: in a lot of in a lot of ways, um. 2005 02:07:27,360 --> 02:07:29,400 Speaker 1: But a lot of fascists also get into the fen 2006 02:07:29,480 --> 02:07:32,040 Speaker 1: boy stetic because of the because of the proximity issue, right, 2007 02:07:32,080 --> 02:07:33,720 Speaker 1: because these things are so like next to each other. 2008 02:07:34,200 --> 02:07:39,360 Speaker 1: Well the thing you're the kind of important broader realization there. 2009 02:07:39,360 --> 02:07:42,040 Speaker 1: And this is something that a radicalization scholar named Scott 2010 02:07:42,080 --> 02:07:45,680 Speaker 1: Atran has been talking about for ten years now. Probably 2011 02:07:45,800 --> 02:07:49,640 Speaker 1: more is that people get radicalized in communities. People like 2012 02:07:49,720 --> 02:07:53,240 Speaker 1: when we talk about radicalization, like why Like I guess 2013 02:07:53,320 --> 02:07:55,440 Speaker 1: the other half of the explainer that I started this 2014 02:07:55,560 --> 02:07:59,000 Speaker 1: with being like, you know, every subculture has their Nazis. 2015 02:07:59,360 --> 02:08:02,520 Speaker 1: It's not because like the reason every subculture has their 2016 02:08:02,600 --> 02:08:08,200 Speaker 1: Nazis is that subcultures are like people get radicalized as 2017 02:08:08,280 --> 02:08:10,600 Speaker 1: part of communities, as part of subcultures. They don't get 2018 02:08:10,680 --> 02:08:13,920 Speaker 1: radicalized as individuals, just like people don't aren't just walking 2019 02:08:13,960 --> 02:08:16,320 Speaker 1: out in the world and decide to become a Nazi. 2020 02:08:16,400 --> 02:08:20,200 Speaker 1: They become a Nazi because a Nazi reaches them in 2021 02:08:20,360 --> 02:08:23,200 Speaker 1: something they're already into, right, Like that That's just the 2022 02:08:23,280 --> 02:08:26,040 Speaker 1: way it happens. Yeah, there's definitely a large part of 2023 02:08:26,120 --> 02:08:29,360 Speaker 1: this is like a group of like group dynamics, especially 2024 02:08:29,440 --> 02:08:32,560 Speaker 1: in places like forums where you're you know, trying to 2025 02:08:33,440 --> 02:08:35,640 Speaker 1: trying to get like this like a tension battle. Um 2026 02:08:35,640 --> 02:08:37,080 Speaker 1: And I guess the other other big part of about 2027 02:08:37,080 --> 02:08:39,640 Speaker 1: the femboy kind of idea, especially on image boards, is 2028 02:08:39,720 --> 02:08:43,000 Speaker 1: like it is such an attention seeking, in validation seeking 2029 02:08:43,320 --> 02:08:45,760 Speaker 1: place right you you want to you want to post 2030 02:08:45,840 --> 02:08:48,800 Speaker 1: things that gets you a lot of comments, likes, upboats, whatever. 2031 02:08:48,880 --> 02:08:51,680 Speaker 1: The kind of the metric is. Um, So people will 2032 02:08:51,760 --> 02:08:55,280 Speaker 1: do things that get them visibility. Even if even if 2033 02:08:55,280 --> 02:08:57,879 Speaker 1: half the people interacting with you are calling you a degenerate, 2034 02:08:58,200 --> 02:09:00,400 Speaker 1: at least there's people still looking at you at least 2035 02:09:00,440 --> 02:09:02,840 Speaker 1: you feel seen, um, and then the other half people 2036 02:09:02,840 --> 02:09:04,600 Speaker 1: will be like, no, it's actually fine. You know. So 2037 02:09:05,480 --> 02:09:08,040 Speaker 1: as long as there's that visibility, like that sense of community, 2038 02:09:08,120 --> 02:09:11,600 Speaker 1: than a lot of the more cognitive cognitive dissonance aspects 2039 02:09:11,680 --> 02:09:14,800 Speaker 1: can kind of be passed by. But we'll we'll we'll 2040 02:09:14,800 --> 02:09:20,040 Speaker 1: get into more of that for for for for part two. Um. Anyway, Uh, 2041 02:09:20,760 --> 02:09:22,880 Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at to 2042 02:09:22,920 --> 02:09:25,200 Speaker 1: Happen Here podon Coole Zone Media, you can find me 2043 02:09:26,040 --> 02:09:30,480 Speaker 1: uh talking about catboys occasionally on Twitter at Hungry bow 2044 02:09:30,520 --> 02:09:36,280 Speaker 1: Tie and about it. Well it's you know, I've I've 2045 02:09:36,320 --> 02:09:38,440 Speaker 1: been I've been trying to edit down this episode because 2046 02:09:38,480 --> 02:09:39,800 Speaker 1: the script was way too long. I be trying to 2047 02:09:40,200 --> 02:09:45,440 Speaker 1: make it more siscinct the past few days. So my, my, my, my, my, 2048 02:09:46,360 --> 02:09:48,720 Speaker 1: I have. I am pretty excited to be to to 2049 02:09:48,880 --> 02:09:52,760 Speaker 1: to close this Google doc at the end of the day. Well, 2050 02:09:53,120 --> 02:09:57,480 Speaker 1: congratulations on all your hard work, Garrison and listeners at home. 2051 02:09:58,000 --> 02:10:02,040 Speaker 1: Go dress like a catboy. Yeah, and and don't be 2052 02:10:02,120 --> 02:10:23,720 Speaker 1: a Nazi. Yeah, I mean that's also important. Recording in progress. 2053 02:10:24,120 --> 02:10:27,080 Speaker 1: All right, Well that's my opening. Welcome to part two 2054 02:10:27,120 --> 02:10:31,440 Speaker 1: of Why They're Nazi Cowboys. Um, what is this podcast, Garrison, 2055 02:10:31,840 --> 02:10:35,920 Speaker 1: it could happen here talking about that together? The cowboys 2056 02:10:36,000 --> 02:10:38,640 Speaker 1: have Nazis? Which did which did actually happen here? They're 2057 02:10:38,640 --> 02:10:43,000 Speaker 1: actually we'll talk about how they actually happened. Um. But 2058 02:10:43,200 --> 02:10:46,000 Speaker 1: before we before we get into the topic of fascists 2059 02:10:46,040 --> 02:10:49,160 Speaker 1: becoming fem boys via exposure, because I do, We're gonna 2060 02:10:49,160 --> 02:10:51,800 Speaker 1: start off by talking about kind of well generally the 2061 02:10:51,840 --> 02:10:54,040 Speaker 1: book book the episodes can be talking about people who 2062 02:10:54,080 --> 02:10:56,280 Speaker 1: are fascists who then get in defend boys toepics. Right, 2063 02:10:56,600 --> 02:10:59,040 Speaker 1: last episode we talked about the fem fast, people who 2064 02:10:59,080 --> 02:11:01,200 Speaker 1: are fem boys who they get fascism. Now we're talking 2065 02:11:01,200 --> 02:11:04,160 Speaker 1: about the fascists who now getting defend boys. Um. But 2066 02:11:05,640 --> 02:11:07,920 Speaker 1: before we get real into that, I think it's gonna 2067 02:11:07,960 --> 02:11:09,880 Speaker 1: I think would be helpful to get a bit more 2068 02:11:09,960 --> 02:11:14,600 Speaker 1: into what these online communities were like in the um Now, 2069 02:11:14,720 --> 02:11:16,800 Speaker 1: all the infos like a combination of what I've gleaned 2070 02:11:16,840 --> 02:11:19,920 Speaker 1: from interviews, UH, direct messages, my own pulling up of 2071 02:11:20,000 --> 02:11:23,000 Speaker 1: old like four China Reddit threads. It may not necessarily 2072 02:11:23,040 --> 02:11:25,440 Speaker 1: reflect you on experiences perfectly. What is the most in 2073 02:11:25,480 --> 02:11:27,880 Speaker 1: depth I can do on an audio only medium? Um, 2074 02:11:28,120 --> 02:11:30,280 Speaker 1: some won't be thrilled about this, but we do need 2075 02:11:30,320 --> 02:11:33,520 Speaker 1: to discuss traps um at their place within the online 2076 02:11:33,520 --> 02:11:36,880 Speaker 1: community at the time. UM which means we must divine, 2077 02:11:37,160 --> 02:11:39,280 Speaker 1: which means before we first must to find another term 2078 02:11:39,440 --> 02:11:44,240 Speaker 1: for the blissfully unaware. So really heartbreaking because when I 2079 02:11:44,360 --> 02:11:47,960 Speaker 1: was a child, Garrison trap was was just a house 2080 02:11:48,160 --> 02:11:51,280 Speaker 1: where you hit your drugs. It is it is not 2081 02:11:51,360 --> 02:11:54,160 Speaker 1: a trap house. This is a different, different, different type 2082 02:11:54,200 --> 02:11:56,800 Speaker 1: of track. This is, this is this is before trap 2083 02:11:56,880 --> 02:12:00,680 Speaker 1: house turned into a PODCASTA and a bunch of people 2084 02:12:00,720 --> 02:12:04,920 Speaker 1: didn't know what a trap house was. Heartbreaking the term, 2085 02:12:05,600 --> 02:12:08,040 Speaker 1: but the term traps were using it here. UM, at 2086 02:12:08,120 --> 02:12:10,720 Speaker 1: least on the Internet, originates in the in the early 2087 02:12:10,760 --> 02:12:15,360 Speaker 1: two thousand's on image boards UM specifically for Juan UM, 2088 02:12:15,920 --> 02:12:19,120 Speaker 1: and it got to be as as it got more 2089 02:12:19,160 --> 02:12:22,040 Speaker 1: popular as a term got more kind of widely recognized 2090 02:12:22,200 --> 02:12:26,400 Speaker 1: as a slur, specifically usually a slur against trans women 2091 02:12:27,040 --> 02:12:30,600 Speaker 1: UM or a slur for like any like feminine presenting 2092 02:12:31,160 --> 02:12:34,360 Speaker 1: person who was a signed mail at birth. So it's 2093 02:12:34,560 --> 02:12:37,800 Speaker 1: it's it's use and origins at least when the Internet 2094 02:12:37,920 --> 02:12:42,720 Speaker 1: comes from people posting pictures usually from anime very like 2095 02:12:42,840 --> 02:12:46,920 Speaker 1: feminine looking boys UM alongside the meme of Admiral Akbar 2096 02:12:47,080 --> 02:12:49,200 Speaker 1: saying it's a trap. Right, So this this is this 2097 02:12:49,320 --> 02:12:51,320 Speaker 1: is how this idea of the trap kind of started, 2098 02:12:51,320 --> 02:12:53,440 Speaker 1: at least online. I talked with some like other trans 2099 02:12:53,520 --> 02:12:57,120 Speaker 1: friends of mine. They say that it definitely they in 2100 02:12:57,160 --> 02:13:00,120 Speaker 1: their opinion, they remember it being a term even for 2101 02:13:00,720 --> 02:13:03,160 Speaker 1: the two thousands on the internet, of being kind of 2102 02:13:03,240 --> 02:13:06,040 Speaker 1: more of a slur towards trans women. Um. I can't 2103 02:13:06,080 --> 02:13:08,680 Speaker 1: find any kind of stuff online about that specific angle, 2104 02:13:08,800 --> 02:13:11,800 Speaker 1: but the term, the term may be older than that offline, 2105 02:13:12,040 --> 02:13:14,560 Speaker 1: but at least the online use of it really comes 2106 02:13:14,600 --> 02:13:17,760 Speaker 1: from the Admiral Actbar meme. Um. So, of course, the 2107 02:13:17,840 --> 02:13:20,160 Speaker 1: it's a trap idea kind of implies some form of 2108 02:13:20,240 --> 02:13:23,000 Speaker 1: deceptions at play, right with these drawings that are pure 2109 02:13:23,040 --> 02:13:27,000 Speaker 1: feminine but may actually be depicting adolescent males or you 2110 02:13:27,040 --> 02:13:31,000 Speaker 1: know worse trans sexuals right woo very scary. Um So 2111 02:13:31,400 --> 02:13:34,320 Speaker 1: this this soon got transferred over from being applied to 2112 02:13:34,360 --> 02:13:37,720 Speaker 1: anime drawings to being applied to pictures and then in 2113 02:13:37,840 --> 02:13:41,720 Speaker 1: person encounters of real fem boys or trans people. Um. 2114 02:13:41,960 --> 02:13:44,680 Speaker 1: So you know, it's as in like if you found 2115 02:13:44,720 --> 02:13:48,120 Speaker 1: someone that looks female enough, as the meme would go, Um, 2116 02:13:48,280 --> 02:13:50,880 Speaker 1: if to be attractive and later found out that they 2117 02:13:50,920 --> 02:13:53,200 Speaker 1: were actually a boy or they were a trans woman. 2118 02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:56,360 Speaker 1: The idea was that, like, you were deceived, Thus you 2119 02:13:56,480 --> 02:13:58,440 Speaker 1: must be on the lookout for any kind of potential 2120 02:13:58,480 --> 02:14:01,640 Speaker 1: attractiveness of fem boys trans women, or else you two 2121 02:14:01,880 --> 02:14:06,040 Speaker 1: might be trapped. Um. So this again, this is it's 2122 02:14:06,120 --> 02:14:09,840 Speaker 1: it's it's often it's a very transphobic and it's like 2123 02:14:10,400 --> 02:14:13,240 Speaker 1: it's comparing fem boys to trans women because these are 2124 02:14:13,280 --> 02:14:17,240 Speaker 1: not the same thing. Um. Obviously, there's is very very 2125 02:14:17,320 --> 02:14:21,919 Speaker 1: hashtag problematic for a lot of reasons. Um. But there's 2126 02:14:21,960 --> 02:14:25,640 Speaker 1: also the the the meme the of our traps gay, 2127 02:14:25,800 --> 02:14:28,240 Speaker 1: which is referring to a kind of like satirical debate 2128 02:14:28,760 --> 02:14:32,320 Speaker 1: around whether or not it's gay defined a femboy, a 2129 02:14:32,400 --> 02:14:36,480 Speaker 1: male cross stresser, or even a trans woman attractive. Um. 2130 02:14:36,560 --> 02:14:39,160 Speaker 1: Now the meme does riff on the whole like fellas 2131 02:14:39,280 --> 02:14:42,040 Speaker 1: is it gay thing? Um? And gee whiz am I 2132 02:14:42,160 --> 02:14:47,760 Speaker 1: glad the fellas meme has surpassed the R traps gay meme. Uh. Obviously. Obviously, 2133 02:14:48,120 --> 02:14:50,680 Speaker 1: not only is the R traps gay thing pretty homophobic 2134 02:14:50,760 --> 02:14:53,400 Speaker 1: and transphobic, Um, it's also tied to a lot of 2135 02:14:53,440 --> 02:14:56,760 Speaker 1: like real world violence against trans women by men, all 2136 02:14:56,840 --> 02:15:00,480 Speaker 1: of the trans panic defense, right, the whole the whole 2137 02:15:00,560 --> 02:15:02,960 Speaker 1: trap idea kind of does tie you into the trans 2138 02:15:03,040 --> 02:15:05,960 Speaker 1: panic defense. A lot of you know, men who claim 2139 02:15:06,000 --> 02:15:09,400 Speaker 1: they simply had to attack or killed trans women once 2140 02:15:09,520 --> 02:15:12,120 Speaker 1: they found out that that she had a dick, right, 2141 02:15:12,280 --> 02:15:14,440 Speaker 1: or maybe used to have a dick, not even anymore, right, 2142 02:15:14,480 --> 02:15:17,440 Speaker 1: it doesn't even matter more commonly or commonly called the 2143 02:15:17,480 --> 02:15:20,400 Speaker 1: trans panic defense. Yeah, yeah, so, and like the mere 2144 02:15:20,440 --> 02:15:22,240 Speaker 1: thought of that was so scary that they just they 2145 02:15:22,360 --> 02:15:25,200 Speaker 1: use the trans panic defense in court when violence against 2146 02:15:25,200 --> 02:15:28,200 Speaker 1: trans women is enacted. Now, obviously this is also much 2147 02:15:28,280 --> 02:15:31,600 Speaker 1: more attacks against trans women in this vein are much 2148 02:15:31,680 --> 02:15:35,920 Speaker 1: more common on trans women of color than than than 2149 02:15:35,960 --> 02:15:38,600 Speaker 1: white trans woman. That's another that's another important thing to mention. 2150 02:15:39,560 --> 02:15:43,640 Speaker 1: But circling back to fortune Nazis and fem boys in 2151 02:15:43,720 --> 02:15:47,400 Speaker 1: the in the two thousands and tens, trap was almost 2152 02:15:47,600 --> 02:15:50,680 Speaker 1: like a badge of honor and self descriptor for many 2153 02:15:50,760 --> 02:15:53,960 Speaker 1: fem boys as well. Like being able to trap or 2154 02:15:54,000 --> 02:15:56,280 Speaker 1: like you know, pass for a woman while having a 2155 02:15:56,400 --> 02:15:59,000 Speaker 1: dick was like the highest level of femboy nous. It 2156 02:15:59,120 --> 02:16:01,200 Speaker 1: was like it was like hop shelf fem boy was 2157 02:16:01,280 --> 02:16:05,040 Speaker 1: being because was being able to to achieve this feat UM. 2158 02:16:05,400 --> 02:16:07,240 Speaker 1: Usually this was you know, for the purposes of taking 2159 02:16:07,280 --> 02:16:09,800 Speaker 1: like loot pictures of yourself and then having them be 2160 02:16:09,960 --> 02:16:13,760 Speaker 1: you know, well liked or spread across online forums. UM. 2161 02:16:14,000 --> 02:16:16,720 Speaker 1: In my interviews with people from these online spaces longer 2162 02:16:16,800 --> 02:16:20,440 Speaker 1: than I've been around, UM, it was it was like 2163 02:16:20,560 --> 02:16:23,280 Speaker 1: described to me by them that being like fem boys 2164 02:16:23,320 --> 02:16:26,120 Speaker 1: are just trying to look feminine, whereas traps are really 2165 02:16:26,200 --> 02:16:28,520 Speaker 1: trying to look like girls. And that is kind of 2166 02:16:28,600 --> 02:16:32,320 Speaker 1: like the distinction in these in these places at the time, UM. Now, 2167 02:16:32,640 --> 02:16:35,959 Speaker 1: you know, all while calling yourself trans was heavily discouraged 2168 02:16:36,000 --> 02:16:38,680 Speaker 1: and ridiculed. UM in two thousand and eleven, you know, 2169 02:16:38,920 --> 02:16:41,000 Speaker 1: four chun it was it was, it was. It was 2170 02:16:41,040 --> 02:16:43,200 Speaker 1: hard to be it was hard to even be openly gay, like, 2171 02:16:43,320 --> 02:16:47,040 Speaker 1: let alone transgender. So but being self described as the 2172 02:16:47,040 --> 02:16:49,520 Speaker 1: trap was much more accepted. So a lot of people 2173 02:16:49,560 --> 02:16:52,120 Speaker 1: would actually self describe as this or want to be 2174 02:16:52,200 --> 02:16:54,120 Speaker 1: self described as this, like want to be at the 2175 02:16:54,120 --> 02:16:56,840 Speaker 1: point where they feel like they could say this, UM. 2176 02:16:57,480 --> 02:17:00,040 Speaker 1: And it's it's interesting. It's like a lot of a 2177 02:17:00,080 --> 02:17:05,040 Speaker 1: lot of the attraction to traps UM was in a 2178 02:17:05,120 --> 02:17:08,160 Speaker 1: lot of ways genuine, but also all wrapped in this 2179 02:17:08,320 --> 02:17:12,640 Speaker 1: like joking, ironic kind of exterior being like, oh, it's 2180 02:17:12,680 --> 02:17:14,200 Speaker 1: all like it, it's all like a bit that we're 2181 02:17:14,440 --> 02:17:16,320 Speaker 1: that we're all in on the joke for right. That 2182 02:17:16,440 --> 02:17:19,920 Speaker 1: that's kind of how this was explained away. Another quote 2183 02:17:19,920 --> 02:17:23,160 Speaker 1: from the interviews is like quote, if you actually admitted 2184 02:17:23,240 --> 02:17:26,920 Speaker 1: to being actually actually romantically attracted to traps or femboys, 2185 02:17:27,080 --> 02:17:29,600 Speaker 1: you would be heavily ostracized. People would say things like, 2186 02:17:29,640 --> 02:17:31,360 Speaker 1: oh my god, you actually did it, like you actually 2187 02:17:31,400 --> 02:17:33,960 Speaker 1: did the thing, um because it is it is. It 2188 02:17:34,120 --> 02:17:36,840 Speaker 1: was like wrapped in this sense of of of of 2189 02:17:36,959 --> 02:17:40,320 Speaker 1: like irony and and and any hint of sincere attraction 2190 02:17:40,680 --> 02:17:43,800 Speaker 1: was masked in this like ironic joke like facade. So 2191 02:17:44,120 --> 02:17:47,600 Speaker 1: at this point four chan is basically an amateur porn 2192 02:17:47,680 --> 02:17:52,120 Speaker 1: filled suesspool of anime h gaming, edgy jokes, and increasingly 2193 02:17:52,200 --> 02:17:56,040 Speaker 1: bad politics, with pole really taking the shape of like 2194 02:17:56,080 --> 02:17:59,600 Speaker 1: the Nazi machine that it is today. So close proximity 2195 02:17:59,760 --> 02:18:02,520 Speaker 1: and probability is all it's necessary to make these racist 2196 02:18:02,560 --> 02:18:06,080 Speaker 1: and fen boys have this you know, uncomfortable awakening once 2197 02:18:06,160 --> 02:18:08,360 Speaker 1: they start seeing a whole bunch of pictures with people's 2198 02:18:08,400 --> 02:18:12,640 Speaker 1: dicks wearing like made outfits. Um So, with with all 2199 02:18:12,720 --> 02:18:16,560 Speaker 1: these like edgy, ironic and not so ironic jokes, the 2200 02:18:16,959 --> 02:18:21,160 Speaker 1: racists populating these chans forums, online spaces, it's only a 2201 02:18:21,200 --> 02:18:23,840 Speaker 1: matter of time before they get exposed to boys posing 2202 02:18:23,879 --> 02:18:27,640 Speaker 1: in Japanese tennis skirts and pink wigs, which helps create 2203 02:18:27,720 --> 02:18:30,880 Speaker 1: this infinity loop idea of like fen boys to get 2204 02:18:30,879 --> 02:18:34,200 Speaker 1: into racism and then fascism, and then and fascists who 2205 02:18:34,240 --> 02:18:37,040 Speaker 1: discover they like dick girls and when boys were addresses, 2206 02:18:37,400 --> 02:18:39,240 Speaker 1: and then it's it's because they're because these things are 2207 02:18:39,240 --> 02:18:41,800 Speaker 1: happening right next to each other. It's this whole phenomenon 2208 02:18:41,920 --> 02:18:46,480 Speaker 1: of self contradiction that just keeps itself going. So we 2209 02:18:46,600 --> 02:18:49,560 Speaker 1: were now we were now done this section, thankfully, um 2210 02:18:49,800 --> 02:18:51,480 Speaker 1: I did not want to get into having to talk 2211 02:18:51,520 --> 02:18:53,720 Speaker 1: about all that stuff because I know it's not people 2212 02:18:53,760 --> 02:18:56,120 Speaker 1: don't like talking about it. It's pretty, it's pretty. It 2213 02:18:56,520 --> 02:19:00,600 Speaker 1: plays on a whole bunch of extremely like transphobic like tropes, 2214 02:19:01,360 --> 02:19:03,360 Speaker 1: but it is it is a big part of this, 2215 02:19:03,680 --> 02:19:07,600 Speaker 1: this this kind of phenomenon. Um So, now we're going 2216 02:19:07,680 --> 02:19:10,920 Speaker 1: to the next part, which is in cells, gamer gait 2217 02:19:11,000 --> 02:19:15,840 Speaker 1: and anti feminism. So I I'm I'm not going to 2218 02:19:16,000 --> 02:19:20,640 Speaker 1: focus a lot on the idea of repressed queerness here, right, 2219 02:19:20,760 --> 02:19:23,840 Speaker 1: the idea of like raging homophobes being secretly gay, because 2220 02:19:23,879 --> 02:19:25,800 Speaker 1: I think that idea gets a little too much attention 2221 02:19:26,040 --> 02:19:28,160 Speaker 1: when we talked about this sort of thing. Now, don't 2222 02:19:28,200 --> 02:19:31,320 Speaker 1: get me wrong, this absolutely does happen, but I generally 2223 02:19:31,400 --> 02:19:34,920 Speaker 1: view sexuality, gender identity, and gender expression as much more 2224 02:19:35,040 --> 02:19:38,440 Speaker 1: fluid attributes, even among people who consider themselves as systems straight. 2225 02:19:38,680 --> 02:19:41,480 Speaker 1: So I I don't like defaulting to this like explainer 2226 02:19:41,520 --> 02:19:44,280 Speaker 1: of being like, oh, they're homophobic, that means they're secretly gay, 2227 02:19:44,320 --> 02:19:46,879 Speaker 1: and like that's I think that's kind of lazy and stupid. 2228 02:19:47,440 --> 02:19:49,640 Speaker 1: But when when, when we're talking about the curious case 2229 02:19:49,680 --> 02:19:53,960 Speaker 1: of Nazi cowboys, most individuals involved not only identify as 2230 02:19:53,959 --> 02:19:56,560 Speaker 1: straight and sis gender, but are also very homophobic and 2231 02:19:56,680 --> 02:20:00,400 Speaker 1: very transphobic despite their overly like queer behavior here because 2232 02:20:00,400 --> 02:20:02,039 Speaker 1: it is it is like queer and like the original 2233 02:20:02,280 --> 02:20:04,960 Speaker 1: sense of the word um, And I think I think 2234 02:20:04,959 --> 02:20:07,840 Speaker 1: there's much more interesting ways to analyze this beyond the 2235 02:20:08,000 --> 02:20:11,680 Speaker 1: repressed gay trope we've already we've already already are talked 2236 02:20:11,680 --> 02:20:15,920 Speaker 1: about some femboys and femboy appreciators adopting reactionary and conservative 2237 02:20:16,000 --> 02:20:18,800 Speaker 1: social beliefs to fit into the larger culture around four 2238 02:20:18,879 --> 02:20:21,480 Speaker 1: Chune and parts of the online gaming community to find 2239 02:20:21,520 --> 02:20:24,400 Speaker 1: this sense of belonging and you know, shared shared community 2240 02:20:24,400 --> 02:20:27,160 Speaker 1: among other people. But in order for the fascist femboy 2241 02:20:27,240 --> 02:20:29,240 Speaker 1: to be such a lasting meme and trope in and 2242 02:20:29,320 --> 02:20:31,400 Speaker 1: of itself, in my mind, there needs to be a 2243 02:20:31,440 --> 02:20:35,680 Speaker 1: bit of a stronger justification for the inherent contradictions beyond 2244 02:20:35,840 --> 02:20:39,160 Speaker 1: just finding community itself. And we will we'll talk about 2245 02:20:39,200 --> 02:20:42,120 Speaker 1: that when we come back from from from our break. 2246 02:20:43,560 --> 02:20:47,160 Speaker 1: Here's here's some ads that that are hopefully about how 2247 02:20:47,280 --> 02:20:49,879 Speaker 1: you two can go on Amazon dot com and buy 2248 02:20:49,879 --> 02:20:55,040 Speaker 1: a made outfit and we're back. Okay, we're going to 2249 02:20:55,120 --> 02:20:59,199 Speaker 1: talk about in cells. What of one of my yeah, 2250 02:21:00,160 --> 02:21:06,760 Speaker 1: uh um in cells or like can voluntarily celibrate people whatever. 2251 02:21:07,320 --> 02:21:08,920 Speaker 1: I assume people who are listening to this know what 2252 02:21:09,040 --> 02:21:12,280 Speaker 1: in cells are. Um. But the in cel movement gained 2253 02:21:12,440 --> 02:21:15,560 Speaker 1: traction in the mid twenty teens alongside gamer Gate and 2254 02:21:15,640 --> 02:21:18,880 Speaker 1: the growing kind of anti feminist and alongside of mass 2255 02:21:18,879 --> 02:21:25,560 Speaker 1: shooting there was there was there was also the Toronto 2256 02:21:25,640 --> 02:21:28,600 Speaker 1: attack when the in cell round over people in that 2257 02:21:29,080 --> 02:21:32,080 Speaker 1: van there's been multiple mass acts of islands tied to 2258 02:21:32,240 --> 02:21:35,200 Speaker 1: the in cell idea, and how they A lot of 2259 02:21:35,280 --> 02:21:39,280 Speaker 1: us just call them horny Isis I've never heard anyone 2260 02:21:39,400 --> 02:21:42,879 Speaker 1: call them that before. Well they are, I mean immediately. 2261 02:21:42,959 --> 02:21:45,280 Speaker 1: Also this is This is also the same period where 2262 02:21:45,320 --> 02:21:48,240 Speaker 1: just isis is on Twitter so cold they share where 2263 02:21:51,800 --> 02:21:54,040 Speaker 1: I really want Isis to chime in on the Will 2264 02:21:54,080 --> 02:21:59,240 Speaker 1: Smith to face No you don't. I would love that here. No, 2265 02:22:00,280 --> 02:22:05,200 Speaker 1: I'm waiting for the Taliban's take, no no, no no, 2266 02:22:06,080 --> 02:22:11,199 Speaker 1: no violence against his violence, Comedians is violenc comedians justified. 2267 02:22:11,480 --> 02:22:14,879 Speaker 1: The Taliban weighs in at six Taliban are you could 2268 02:22:14,920 --> 02:22:17,520 Speaker 1: get the Taliban arguing with isis K. By god, it 2269 02:22:17,600 --> 02:22:22,280 Speaker 1: could be done. What a what a what a better world? That? 2270 02:22:24,600 --> 02:22:28,800 Speaker 1: Especially if Trump was still on Twitter and conmdiate. Oh god, 2271 02:22:28,959 --> 02:22:32,280 Speaker 1: that would have been so funny. If Trump had been 2272 02:22:32,320 --> 02:22:35,280 Speaker 1: around on Twitter too. It's the only time I've missed him, 2273 02:22:35,480 --> 02:22:37,640 Speaker 1: just like, oh yeah, yeah, that would have been that, 2274 02:22:37,760 --> 02:22:42,760 Speaker 1: That would have been the good ship anyway. Um yeah, 2275 02:22:42,800 --> 02:22:46,240 Speaker 1: in cells there it's a pretty obstensibly violent movement because 2276 02:22:46,280 --> 02:22:50,880 Speaker 1: it's it's all about making young men disenfranchised about their future, right, 2277 02:22:50,920 --> 02:22:55,520 Speaker 1: It's this fatalistic idea that they were promised things and 2278 02:22:55,680 --> 02:22:58,119 Speaker 1: now those promises are no longer being kept by society, 2279 02:22:58,520 --> 02:23:00,560 Speaker 1: so you are kind of doomed to live a pathetic 2280 02:23:00,600 --> 02:23:03,120 Speaker 1: life forever. Right, So it is a very fatalist idea 2281 02:23:03,400 --> 02:23:07,920 Speaker 1: that really kind of encourages acts of violence. Um But 2282 02:23:08,320 --> 02:23:10,879 Speaker 1: the in the moment was gaining traction around this whole time, 2283 02:23:11,040 --> 02:23:13,480 Speaker 1: right right beside gammer Gate and the growing antifeminist movement. 2284 02:23:13,800 --> 02:23:15,920 Speaker 1: And I think the key to putting this puzzle together 2285 02:23:16,520 --> 02:23:20,240 Speaker 1: is in the hatred and resentment of women itself, um 2286 02:23:20,400 --> 02:23:22,080 Speaker 1: as like a thing. I think think this is actually 2287 02:23:22,080 --> 02:23:24,840 Speaker 1: a key part of why the femboy and femboy fascist 2288 02:23:24,920 --> 02:23:28,160 Speaker 1: thing kind of caught on. Most of the loose organizing 2289 02:23:28,240 --> 02:23:30,879 Speaker 1: of these movements were happening on four Chan and Reddit 2290 02:23:31,320 --> 02:23:34,959 Speaker 1: right eventually eventually discord as well. These were the same 2291 02:23:35,000 --> 02:23:38,400 Speaker 1: places that were home to the anime posting femboy amateur 2292 02:23:38,480 --> 02:23:41,800 Speaker 1: porn community, and one of the most common viewpoints at 2293 02:23:41,840 --> 02:23:45,600 Speaker 1: the time was that feminism is ruining women, right, that's 2294 02:23:45,640 --> 02:23:48,720 Speaker 1: it's it's disrupting the natural patriarchal order that many boys 2295 02:23:48,760 --> 02:23:52,080 Speaker 1: were taught existed, you know, with promises of girlfriends and 2296 02:23:52,160 --> 02:23:54,720 Speaker 1: wives that are like, rightfully, there's as some kind of 2297 02:23:54,800 --> 02:23:57,720 Speaker 1: like obligation. Yeah, I mean this is when we talked 2298 02:23:57,720 --> 02:24:00,320 Speaker 1: about like promise people being men being promised. Men were 2299 02:24:00,360 --> 02:24:03,360 Speaker 1: generally talking about like the way in which fiction kind 2300 02:24:03,400 --> 02:24:08,480 Speaker 1: of complicitly promises women as as a reward for heroics, 2301 02:24:08,560 --> 02:24:12,520 Speaker 1: org just being good. It's like it's it's just specifically 2302 02:24:12,600 --> 02:24:15,440 Speaker 1: like a cultural idea. That is probably the best example 2303 02:24:15,480 --> 02:24:18,360 Speaker 1: of this Star Wars, Luke Skywalker becomes a hero and 2304 02:24:18,480 --> 02:24:21,920 Speaker 1: gets to gets to kiss his sister, you know, yes, 2305 02:24:22,120 --> 02:24:26,280 Speaker 1: which is just the which is the driving driving motivation 2306 02:24:26,360 --> 02:24:29,959 Speaker 1: of many many in cells said they took in one 2307 02:24:30,040 --> 02:24:33,800 Speaker 1: day because their sister. Thank thank you Robert for that 2308 02:24:34,080 --> 02:24:37,240 Speaker 1: for that stinct analysis. I used to I used to 2309 02:24:37,320 --> 02:24:41,920 Speaker 1: be a film's reviewer, Garrison. So like if you're taught 2310 02:24:42,080 --> 02:24:44,920 Speaker 1: and raised like thinking that something like this exists, right 2311 02:24:45,000 --> 02:24:48,039 Speaker 1: like this this this this correct patriarchal order, like it's 2312 02:24:48,040 --> 02:24:49,760 Speaker 1: like it's it's it's almost it's almost like this like 2313 02:24:49,920 --> 02:24:53,840 Speaker 1: righteous truth. Um and you if you then discovery like 2314 02:24:54,000 --> 02:24:56,440 Speaker 1: that's kind of a lie, and that like women are 2315 02:24:56,480 --> 02:24:59,880 Speaker 1: actually individuals with value not tied to the ownership by 2316 02:25:00,080 --> 02:25:04,160 Speaker 1: man um. Some men have a very very unhealthy, often 2317 02:25:04,320 --> 02:25:09,520 Speaker 1: violatile reaction to this realization or confrontation. So some people 2318 02:25:09,640 --> 02:25:13,240 Speaker 1: then decide to do mass shootings. Some people, uh, kill people, 2319 02:25:13,480 --> 02:25:15,480 Speaker 1: some people just do you know, some people might just 2320 02:25:15,800 --> 02:25:19,680 Speaker 1: do you know, like um, intimate partner violence, right, say 2321 02:25:19,720 --> 02:25:21,760 Speaker 1: that they do get a partner at some point and 2322 02:25:21,920 --> 02:25:23,640 Speaker 1: it's not going the way they want and they just 2323 02:25:23,680 --> 02:25:26,200 Speaker 1: become abusive. Right. So there's a whole bunch of ways 2324 02:25:26,240 --> 02:25:30,199 Speaker 1: this this type of thing can manifest. Um. So, faced 2325 02:25:30,240 --> 02:25:31,880 Speaker 1: with the work of like not being a dick and 2326 02:25:32,000 --> 02:25:35,120 Speaker 1: trying to combat this ingrained misogyny and then having to 2327 02:25:35,280 --> 02:25:38,480 Speaker 1: like actually put effort into being attractive and desired, a 2328 02:25:38,600 --> 02:25:42,640 Speaker 1: lot of men instead opt to either like attack outwards 2329 02:25:43,240 --> 02:25:46,720 Speaker 1: or withdrawal inwards, and sometimes the mix of both. So 2330 02:25:46,959 --> 02:25:48,720 Speaker 1: with the with the fascist from boy thing, a lot 2331 02:25:48,800 --> 02:25:51,240 Speaker 1: of this is like withdrawing in words, right. A lot 2332 02:25:51,280 --> 02:25:53,960 Speaker 1: of these people are too introverted and to kind of 2333 02:25:54,040 --> 02:25:56,280 Speaker 1: cowardly to actually do like a mass shooting, which is 2334 02:25:56,360 --> 02:25:59,720 Speaker 1: like that's that's that's that's probably good. Um. But then 2335 02:26:00,080 --> 02:26:01,960 Speaker 1: them and drawing in words, we're gonna it's kind of 2336 02:26:02,000 --> 02:26:04,520 Speaker 1: manifest in this in this in this different way. So 2337 02:26:05,840 --> 02:26:09,080 Speaker 1: when dealing with this almost like misogynistic nihilism. A lot 2338 02:26:09,120 --> 02:26:11,280 Speaker 1: of dudes really lost hope in the prospect of a 2339 02:26:11,320 --> 02:26:13,800 Speaker 1: future romance with women. So instead of putting in effort 2340 02:26:13,840 --> 02:26:17,240 Speaker 1: to adjust their personality, adjust their behavior, change the partrict, 2341 02:26:17,520 --> 02:26:21,080 Speaker 1: change their patriarchal outlook, and improve their physical appearance, many 2342 02:26:21,120 --> 02:26:23,640 Speaker 1: guys insaide will retreat to their online communities full of 2343 02:26:23,720 --> 02:26:26,640 Speaker 1: other guys facing similar issues. All Right, it's easier to 2344 02:26:26,680 --> 02:26:28,480 Speaker 1: live in front of a screen and not have to 2345 02:26:28,520 --> 02:26:32,000 Speaker 1: face other humans in person. These these people don't really 2346 02:26:32,040 --> 02:26:35,040 Speaker 1: have much substantial experience in real life interacting with the 2347 02:26:35,120 --> 02:26:39,560 Speaker 1: opposite gender. Um. So these perhaps, you know, these these 2348 02:26:39,760 --> 02:26:42,480 Speaker 1: so called straight guys that were drawn to fend boys 2349 02:26:43,160 --> 02:26:45,920 Speaker 1: also may have had just had like bad experiences with women. 2350 02:26:46,000 --> 02:26:48,520 Speaker 1: They may have faced rejection, and that rejection may have 2351 02:26:48,560 --> 02:26:51,440 Speaker 1: really brought them down. Um, and then they assume that 2352 02:26:51,440 --> 02:26:53,880 Speaker 1: they're always going to be rejected by women because of 2353 02:26:54,000 --> 02:26:57,760 Speaker 1: like a few bad experiences and the kind of guys 2354 02:26:57,800 --> 02:27:00,560 Speaker 1: who are on these chans forums and at it online 2355 02:27:00,600 --> 02:27:03,680 Speaker 1: gaming they tend to be generally more socially outcast people 2356 02:27:03,720 --> 02:27:08,800 Speaker 1: who aren't necessarily super physically naturally like attractive and masculine. Right, 2357 02:27:08,879 --> 02:27:11,360 Speaker 1: you have to like people. Everyone, almost everyone can be attractive. 2358 02:27:11,360 --> 02:27:12,960 Speaker 1: You just have to like put in work if you 2359 02:27:13,120 --> 02:27:14,560 Speaker 1: if you just never do that, Like a lot a 2360 02:27:14,600 --> 02:27:16,360 Speaker 1: lot of boys are never taught how to actually make 2361 02:27:16,400 --> 02:27:19,520 Speaker 1: themselves look good, so they're just kind of like just like, 2362 02:27:20,520 --> 02:27:24,440 Speaker 1: like attractive isn't much like they if you go on 2363 02:27:24,520 --> 02:27:26,520 Speaker 1: these in cell forms, they'll focus a lot on like, 2364 02:27:26,640 --> 02:27:29,960 Speaker 1: well I have you know, there's these folds in the 2365 02:27:30,120 --> 02:27:32,080 Speaker 1: creases of my eyes, or like the way that my 2366 02:27:32,240 --> 02:27:36,240 Speaker 1: nose is very physically impossible for a woman to be 2367 02:27:36,320 --> 02:27:39,040 Speaker 1: into me. And it's like no, like more than people 2368 02:27:39,240 --> 02:27:43,080 Speaker 1: Like there's all sorts of different preferences people have for 2369 02:27:43,160 --> 02:27:46,480 Speaker 1: physical things, but overall, like the number one thing you 2370 02:27:46,560 --> 02:27:48,880 Speaker 1: can do to be attractive is to be a person 2371 02:27:48,959 --> 02:27:52,080 Speaker 1: that people like be confident their life if you have 2372 02:27:52,440 --> 02:27:54,760 Speaker 1: like have like a good personality, like learn how to 2373 02:27:54,879 --> 02:27:58,480 Speaker 1: do a variety of things and just like have have 2374 02:27:58,600 --> 02:28:01,560 Speaker 1: a life. Lot of the all these people like that 2375 02:28:01,640 --> 02:28:04,200 Speaker 1: seems neat They think that they can achieve, you know, 2376 02:28:04,360 --> 02:28:06,400 Speaker 1: they think that women should flock to them even if 2377 02:28:06,400 --> 02:28:07,840 Speaker 1: they put in like new effort at all, right, if 2378 02:28:07,840 --> 02:28:09,800 Speaker 1: they just do what they're doing, they feel like, why 2379 02:28:09,920 --> 02:28:12,640 Speaker 1: is this not working, or the effort they put in. 2380 02:28:12,720 --> 02:28:15,560 Speaker 1: It's like Ellie again, Eliot Rogers the perfect example of 2381 02:28:15,600 --> 02:28:17,440 Speaker 1: these kind of people. Like the effort that he put 2382 02:28:17,520 --> 02:28:19,280 Speaker 1: in was he like made his dad buy him a 2383 02:28:19,360 --> 02:28:22,000 Speaker 1: really nice car, and he dressed in expensive clothing. And 2384 02:28:22,040 --> 02:28:25,120 Speaker 1: it's like, well, that's actually very few people are attracted 2385 02:28:25,160 --> 02:28:27,840 Speaker 1: to that. And yes, the people who are attracted solely 2386 02:28:27,920 --> 02:28:31,120 Speaker 1: to someone having a nice car and clothing probably have 2387 02:28:31,320 --> 02:28:36,280 Speaker 1: really weird, specific like physical things. They're also only looking for, um, 2388 02:28:36,680 --> 02:28:40,160 Speaker 1: But that's because you were like like that, that's not 2389 02:28:40,720 --> 02:28:44,199 Speaker 1: making yourself attractive as opposed to I don't know, learning 2390 02:28:44,280 --> 02:28:49,040 Speaker 1: how to cook or or learning you know, a foreign language, 2391 02:28:49,280 --> 02:28:53,000 Speaker 1: or you know, being an emotionally available person who's not 2392 02:28:53,720 --> 02:28:57,959 Speaker 1: purely viewing relationships into transactional nature where you're you're paying 2393 02:28:58,080 --> 02:29:00,600 Speaker 1: for sex by being friendly. You know. But you know, 2394 02:29:01,160 --> 02:29:03,600 Speaker 1: you know what, but you know what's easier than doing 2395 02:29:03,640 --> 02:29:06,400 Speaker 1: all that is just hating women. That is, that's a 2396 02:29:06,480 --> 02:29:08,360 Speaker 1: much easier thing for these for these people to do 2397 02:29:09,440 --> 02:29:12,560 Speaker 1: default to this. So the Internet taught me one thing. 2398 02:29:12,640 --> 02:29:16,199 Speaker 1: It's that it's quite easy to hate women. So while 2399 02:29:16,360 --> 02:29:19,480 Speaker 1: these like all right, hell holes like four chune um 2400 02:29:19,720 --> 02:29:22,360 Speaker 1: and you know, read it online gaming, right, online gaming 2401 02:29:22,440 --> 02:29:25,560 Speaker 1: is full of misogyny. Um, all these all these places 2402 02:29:25,680 --> 02:29:29,800 Speaker 1: like really hate like actual women. It's they still heavily 2403 02:29:29,920 --> 02:29:34,000 Speaker 1: fetish size femininity, right, it's still viewed as this like glorious, 2404 02:29:34,120 --> 02:29:36,520 Speaker 1: like like thing that's put put put put put put 2405 02:29:36,560 --> 02:29:39,600 Speaker 1: on a pedestal, even though they hate like actual women themselves. 2406 02:29:40,120 --> 02:29:44,600 Speaker 1: So feminine dudes can be fem boys or cause play 2407 02:29:44,600 --> 02:29:49,480 Speaker 1: anime to garner attention or social praise, you know, amidst 2408 02:29:49,600 --> 02:29:52,160 Speaker 1: some you know standard you know, like people like oh 2409 02:29:52,320 --> 02:29:55,600 Speaker 1: your faguetes, you're disgusting comments, But you can then they 2410 02:29:55,640 --> 02:29:57,840 Speaker 1: can still like cause play and dress up and post 2411 02:29:57,879 --> 02:30:01,840 Speaker 1: pictures without being totally shunned by their fellow edgy writers 2412 02:30:02,400 --> 02:30:04,200 Speaker 1: because it's kind of funny and some of them may 2413 02:30:04,200 --> 02:30:06,360 Speaker 1: actually find it cute, even even though they may not 2414 02:30:06,440 --> 02:30:09,640 Speaker 1: admit it. Uh. Fem boys often do have you know, 2415 02:30:10,080 --> 02:30:12,960 Speaker 1: I generally think cute and effeminate features they can in 2416 02:30:13,240 --> 02:30:15,720 Speaker 1: For these people, a big part of the goal is 2417 02:30:15,760 --> 02:30:17,600 Speaker 1: to like trick the brain into thinking that you're just 2418 02:30:17,720 --> 02:30:20,320 Speaker 1: looking at a girl, um that might just so happen 2419 02:30:20,400 --> 02:30:24,480 Speaker 1: to have a penis. So therefore, when like viewing these pictures, 2420 02:30:24,920 --> 02:30:27,599 Speaker 1: these guys are also like getting a sense of familiarity 2421 02:30:27,920 --> 02:30:31,360 Speaker 1: with girl like imagery, um while thinking that like they 2422 02:30:31,440 --> 02:30:34,000 Speaker 1: also might have a shot and with interacting with this 2423 02:30:34,080 --> 02:30:36,800 Speaker 1: individual because they don't have a vagina, so that makes 2424 02:30:36,840 --> 02:30:39,360 Speaker 1: it makes interacting with them like easier because there's like 2425 02:30:39,560 --> 02:30:43,000 Speaker 1: more things to relate to. I guess, um, you would 2426 02:30:43,000 --> 02:30:45,360 Speaker 1: see a lot of like role playing and like role 2427 02:30:45,400 --> 02:30:48,200 Speaker 1: playing of sexting and like role playing of dating girls 2428 02:30:48,640 --> 02:30:52,600 Speaker 1: through this femboy framework just actually a really common occurrence 2429 02:30:52,680 --> 02:30:54,600 Speaker 1: as like and it was it was explained as like 2430 02:30:55,200 --> 02:30:58,480 Speaker 1: it's like a sort of practice for imagining their future 2431 02:30:58,520 --> 02:31:00,280 Speaker 1: of dating women. It was like it was like they're 2432 02:31:00,280 --> 02:31:04,080 Speaker 1: doing this to like practice interacting with women. Um, so 2433 02:31:04,360 --> 02:31:08,199 Speaker 1: they're just gonna be role playing dating fem boys while 2434 02:31:08,280 --> 02:31:11,640 Speaker 1: being Nazis. But they're doing it so that it's like 2435 02:31:11,840 --> 02:31:14,400 Speaker 1: a practice so that they will be better at dating 2436 02:31:14,440 --> 02:31:17,240 Speaker 1: women in the future. It's like so that that's that's 2437 02:31:17,240 --> 02:31:20,520 Speaker 1: actually a really common thing um or like yeah, like 2438 02:31:20,600 --> 02:31:23,200 Speaker 1: sexting as as as like yeah, I'm just doing this 2439 02:31:23,280 --> 02:31:24,920 Speaker 1: for practice, Like I'm not doing this so that I 2440 02:31:25,000 --> 02:31:27,959 Speaker 1: will be good at sexting in the future, just doing 2441 02:31:28,000 --> 02:31:30,640 Speaker 1: it with these fem boys on you know, discord on 2442 02:31:30,800 --> 02:31:34,840 Speaker 1: for chat whatever. Um, because like all of like the 2443 02:31:34,879 --> 02:31:38,800 Speaker 1: whole femboy thing is still dealing with the patriarchal views 2444 02:31:39,120 --> 02:31:42,240 Speaker 1: of beauty. Right. It's it's femininity as this sort of 2445 02:31:42,320 --> 02:31:46,760 Speaker 1: performance put on for the enjoyment of others. And because 2446 02:31:46,800 --> 02:31:50,080 Speaker 1: it's about that, like appreciating femininity itself, it's seen as 2447 02:31:50,080 --> 02:31:53,080 Speaker 1: a lot safer than full on homosexual attraction, right because 2448 02:31:53,640 --> 02:31:56,199 Speaker 1: it's it's allowed if if you're if you can appreciate 2449 02:31:56,360 --> 02:31:59,920 Speaker 1: the femininity, then that's allowed to propagate despite also kind 2450 02:32:00,120 --> 02:32:03,959 Speaker 1: being degenerate because the person generally fem boys usually self 2451 02:32:04,040 --> 02:32:07,240 Speaker 1: ideas male. But because it's wrapped in this feminine package, 2452 02:32:07,640 --> 02:32:11,200 Speaker 1: it's allowed to be appreciated. Um. And for the people 2453 02:32:11,240 --> 02:32:13,560 Speaker 1: that did eventually come to terms with their queerness, the 2454 02:32:13,800 --> 02:32:17,000 Speaker 1: four Chan femboy thing allowed them to safely dip their 2455 02:32:17,040 --> 02:32:22,680 Speaker 1: toes into exploring how like exploring homosexuality, bisexuality, exploring like 2456 02:32:22,879 --> 02:32:27,360 Speaker 1: gender bending without like abandoning the typical masculine feminine rules 2457 02:32:27,720 --> 02:32:29,680 Speaker 1: that were kind of raised to be comfortable with. Right. 2458 02:32:29,720 --> 02:32:33,000 Speaker 1: It's still in the regular masculine feminine like rule sets, 2459 02:32:33,480 --> 02:32:37,360 Speaker 1: but it's approachable because it's allowed to be done through 2460 02:32:37,400 --> 02:32:40,160 Speaker 1: this both both this like ironic joke, but then also 2461 02:32:40,600 --> 02:32:44,120 Speaker 1: it's still it's still based off these patriarchal views of 2462 02:32:44,240 --> 02:32:50,320 Speaker 1: feminine beauty. So it's it's it's it's a weird thing. Um, 2463 02:32:50,800 --> 02:32:52,560 Speaker 1: it's it's that's a that's the other part of it 2464 02:32:52,640 --> 02:32:54,640 Speaker 1: that I like to explain to people because you're like, oh, 2465 02:32:55,040 --> 02:32:58,480 Speaker 1: that is like trying to picture fascists fake dating each 2466 02:32:58,480 --> 02:33:01,080 Speaker 1: other online so that will be better at dating women 2467 02:33:01,120 --> 02:33:04,800 Speaker 1: in the future. It's just a very absurd idea. It's 2468 02:33:05,160 --> 02:33:08,680 Speaker 1: I it's fair. I'm actually fine with this, but like 2469 02:33:09,040 --> 02:33:11,280 Speaker 1: it makes like it makes sense, like it like it, 2470 02:33:11,440 --> 02:33:14,120 Speaker 1: like I understand it, and you can like, yeah, I 2471 02:33:15,040 --> 02:33:17,400 Speaker 1: get it. Um. And it did help a lot of 2472 02:33:17,440 --> 02:33:20,880 Speaker 1: people eventually realize maybe I'm not the straightest stick in 2473 02:33:20,920 --> 02:33:24,680 Speaker 1: the shed, or maybe not the straightest stick in the fascies. Yeah. 2474 02:33:24,800 --> 02:33:29,800 Speaker 1: I mean everyone needs a safe space to figure out 2475 02:33:30,600 --> 02:33:35,800 Speaker 1: what they are, and I guess that even includes fascists, 2476 02:33:36,200 --> 02:33:39,760 Speaker 1: maybe because like not because I want fascists to be fascists, 2477 02:33:39,800 --> 02:33:42,959 Speaker 1: but because maybe some of them, through this weird role 2478 02:33:43,000 --> 02:33:47,640 Speaker 1: playing role, will like get over some stuff absolutely recognize 2479 02:33:47,680 --> 02:33:50,480 Speaker 1: that like oh maybe maybe I'm just like gay and 2480 02:33:50,879 --> 02:33:55,600 Speaker 1: I need to like work on myself, like I'm I'm 2481 02:33:55,640 --> 02:33:57,520 Speaker 1: maybe I've been barking up the wrong tree with all 2482 02:33:57,560 --> 02:34:03,640 Speaker 1: this Nazi stuff. Yeah, because like amidst like the gamer 2483 02:34:03,680 --> 02:34:06,119 Speaker 1: Gate and the height of the insult era, these guys 2484 02:34:06,200 --> 02:34:09,880 Speaker 1: felt more comfortable exploring their burgeoning sexuality in these male 2485 02:34:09,920 --> 02:34:12,600 Speaker 1: dominated online spaces right there. It's easier to relate to 2486 02:34:12,680 --> 02:34:14,920 Speaker 1: other males when they're when they're all like growing up 2487 02:34:14,959 --> 02:34:17,680 Speaker 1: coming of age, dealing with dealing with these like feelings 2488 02:34:17,760 --> 02:34:20,600 Speaker 1: of it like abandonment, loneliness. Right, they do this in 2489 02:34:20,640 --> 02:34:24,039 Speaker 1: these male spaces, they feel lot safer to express themselves, um, 2490 02:34:24,560 --> 02:34:27,120 Speaker 1: you know what, whether or not they're full of fascists 2491 02:34:27,400 --> 02:34:30,119 Speaker 1: or like other people who are like very like reactionary, 2492 02:34:30,360 --> 02:34:34,160 Speaker 1: because at least they can understand male desire um and 2493 02:34:34,320 --> 02:34:37,440 Speaker 1: that's they can relate to that and internact with people 2494 02:34:37,560 --> 02:34:39,920 Speaker 1: who are you know, they can eat in act easier 2495 02:34:39,959 --> 02:34:43,320 Speaker 1: with people with dicks while wrapped in this feminine package, 2496 02:34:44,120 --> 02:34:46,680 Speaker 1: which is so much easier than the much more scary 2497 02:34:46,720 --> 02:34:49,320 Speaker 1: and much more elusive of like females out there. Right 2498 02:34:49,360 --> 02:34:51,680 Speaker 1: It's it's that that's kind of the framework that this 2499 02:34:51,879 --> 02:34:54,680 Speaker 1: was propagated through. It's it's it's really interesting that it's 2500 02:34:54,720 --> 02:35:02,240 Speaker 1: like you have these people who like they're they're like 2501 02:35:02,360 --> 02:35:05,880 Speaker 1: they're they're they're transmisogyny is such that like they they've 2502 02:35:05,959 --> 02:35:08,680 Speaker 1: escalated to a point where it circles back around. Yes, 2503 02:35:08,879 --> 02:35:13,600 Speaker 1: it is so intense. It is such a it's there's 2504 02:35:13,680 --> 02:35:17,400 Speaker 1: so much going on. Yeah, yeah, it's like it's like 2505 02:35:17,440 --> 02:35:23,640 Speaker 1: it becomes this like like I don't know, it becomes 2506 02:35:23,879 --> 02:35:31,080 Speaker 1: like the fact that it's like conceptually impossible for them 2507 02:35:31,400 --> 02:35:33,280 Speaker 1: for just like a woman to have a dick like 2508 02:35:33,680 --> 02:35:36,560 Speaker 1: that has like circled back around and just completely come 2509 02:35:36,640 --> 02:35:38,680 Speaker 1: to define how they have gender in such a way 2510 02:35:38,720 --> 02:35:42,560 Speaker 1: that someone who is like just is performing gender like 2511 02:35:42,720 --> 02:35:46,000 Speaker 1: as a woman, like to the extent that like they're 2512 02:35:46,080 --> 02:35:49,800 Speaker 1: trying to like they're they're trying to have people use 2513 02:35:50,360 --> 02:35:55,160 Speaker 1: like to transcellors against them. Yeah, there's it's it's an 2514 02:35:55,200 --> 02:35:58,400 Speaker 1: interesting there's there's there's so much going on because yeah, 2515 02:35:58,440 --> 02:36:01,760 Speaker 1: it's routed in a whole bunch of it's people exploring 2516 02:36:01,840 --> 02:36:04,680 Speaker 1: gender in this weird way while also like relying on 2517 02:36:04,920 --> 02:36:11,240 Speaker 1: heavily like misogynistic, trans misogynistic, homophobic kind of ideas. But 2518 02:36:11,440 --> 02:36:13,840 Speaker 1: it's it's also it's like it's very queer in this 2519 02:36:14,040 --> 02:36:16,000 Speaker 1: and like the way in the way they're going about it, 2520 02:36:16,680 --> 02:36:18,520 Speaker 1: because it's a whole bunch of like self it's a 2521 02:36:18,560 --> 02:36:21,400 Speaker 1: whole bunch of like self justification. It's a it's a 2522 02:36:21,440 --> 02:36:23,959 Speaker 1: whole bunch of like stuff around like what they view 2523 02:36:24,160 --> 02:36:26,520 Speaker 1: as feminine, what they've us masculine, what what they view 2524 02:36:26,680 --> 02:36:31,240 Speaker 1: like being a woman means, um it is it is 2525 02:36:31,600 --> 02:36:33,560 Speaker 1: it is. Uh, it's it's a lot yeah, like as 2526 02:36:33,680 --> 02:36:35,920 Speaker 1: as like a more as like a gender queer, transperson. 2527 02:36:35,959 --> 02:36:37,280 Speaker 1: I like, I like look at them go through all 2528 02:36:37,320 --> 02:36:39,960 Speaker 1: this work and like, wow, they could have bypassed a 2529 02:36:40,000 --> 02:36:42,080 Speaker 1: whole bunch of bullshit if they just like less of 2530 02:36:42,160 --> 02:36:45,000 Speaker 1: a like, if they're just less of if they work 2531 02:36:45,080 --> 02:36:47,400 Speaker 1: as horrible people, they could have experienced these same things. 2532 02:36:47,640 --> 02:36:50,360 Speaker 1: But again, like they were, they're in their own isolated communities, 2533 02:36:50,640 --> 02:36:52,840 Speaker 1: They're they're dealing with the same ingredients just from this 2534 02:36:53,040 --> 02:36:57,640 Speaker 1: weird backwards way. So like it's it's obviously very transphoblic 2535 02:36:57,680 --> 02:36:59,040 Speaker 1: and in a lot of senses, but a lot of 2536 02:36:59,400 --> 02:37:02,119 Speaker 1: a lot of these pop will eventually realized, oh, maybe 2537 02:37:02,160 --> 02:37:05,280 Speaker 1: I've actually trends. So it's this it's like I don't know, 2538 02:37:05,720 --> 02:37:09,720 Speaker 1: it's obviously not great in a lot of ways, But 2539 02:37:09,800 --> 02:37:12,520 Speaker 1: I don't know how to discuss it when saying like, yes, 2540 02:37:12,640 --> 02:37:15,400 Speaker 1: it's obviously not great for how like trans misogynistic it is, 2541 02:37:15,840 --> 02:37:19,680 Speaker 1: but they're all working through some stuff. Yeah, well you know, 2542 02:37:19,760 --> 02:37:21,280 Speaker 1: I don't want The one thing I will say about 2543 02:37:21,320 --> 02:37:24,360 Speaker 1: this is like, yeah, like if kids were actually allowed 2544 02:37:24,440 --> 02:37:28,440 Speaker 1: to be queer normally, like this ship mostly would not happen, 2545 02:37:28,520 --> 02:37:30,440 Speaker 1: Like you, you wouldn't get so many people who get 2546 02:37:30,520 --> 02:37:32,880 Speaker 1: locked in these like who are queer, who get locked 2547 02:37:32,879 --> 02:37:36,240 Speaker 1: into these spaces. But then also like the only way 2548 02:37:36,280 --> 02:37:38,680 Speaker 1: that they could express themselves in these like narrow, isolated 2549 02:37:38,720 --> 02:37:40,920 Speaker 1: waping spaces is to like this ship or they're into 2550 02:37:40,959 --> 02:37:45,000 Speaker 1: the like just let people express themselves normally, and this 2551 02:37:45,200 --> 02:37:48,680 Speaker 1: this you can deny the fascist recruiting ground, Like yeah, 2552 02:37:48,879 --> 02:37:51,080 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's interesting, Like it's like when all 2553 02:37:51,200 --> 02:37:53,440 Speaker 1: all these people are looking at interacting with them boys, 2554 02:37:54,240 --> 02:37:56,560 Speaker 1: I think a lot of those is why they they 2555 02:37:56,600 --> 02:37:58,760 Speaker 1: were able to play with these ingredients is that they 2556 02:37:58,800 --> 02:38:02,320 Speaker 1: did not experience the same like anxiety or like heightened 2557 02:38:02,400 --> 02:38:05,640 Speaker 1: stakes or neative or like negative connotations in their mind 2558 02:38:05,920 --> 02:38:08,840 Speaker 1: that that they normally do when thinking about women, because 2559 02:38:08,879 --> 02:38:12,560 Speaker 1: women are just so other so especially like if you 2560 02:38:12,640 --> 02:38:15,720 Speaker 1: can rationalize this this attraction defend boys as simply a 2561 02:38:15,800 --> 02:38:19,000 Speaker 1: prelude to dating like quote like real women in whatever 2562 02:38:19,120 --> 02:38:22,520 Speaker 1: like fantasy cottage core future they might imagine, then this 2563 02:38:22,680 --> 02:38:25,800 Speaker 1: idea is a way more approachable. You're gonna need to 2564 02:38:25,879 --> 02:38:28,320 Speaker 1: explain cottage core for the I am not. I already 2565 02:38:28,360 --> 02:38:31,320 Speaker 1: have we have we were having an add break I 2566 02:38:31,400 --> 02:38:35,879 Speaker 1: still in brief it is this like return to tradition obsession. 2567 02:38:35,959 --> 02:38:38,880 Speaker 1: You see among like chunks of the far right who 2568 02:38:38,920 --> 02:38:42,240 Speaker 1: were obsessed with the idea that if they if culture 2569 02:38:42,320 --> 02:38:44,280 Speaker 1: was the way it was in the fifties or in 2570 02:38:44,400 --> 02:38:48,400 Speaker 1: like the they would live on They would live on 2571 02:38:48,440 --> 02:38:51,360 Speaker 1: a small farm with their wife and children who would 2572 02:38:51,360 --> 02:38:53,760 Speaker 1: be utterly submissive to them, and everything would be perfect. 2573 02:38:54,160 --> 02:38:56,440 Speaker 1: But like, the only thing in between them and happiness 2574 02:38:56,640 --> 02:38:59,160 Speaker 1: is that they're not able to live in a in 2575 02:38:59,240 --> 02:39:02,520 Speaker 1: a in a small all like farm with a woman 2576 02:39:02,600 --> 02:39:05,840 Speaker 1: who they essentially own. That the gist, I will say 2577 02:39:05,840 --> 02:39:08,640 Speaker 1: a lot of college course are also used by liberals 2578 02:39:08,680 --> 02:39:10,440 Speaker 1: and people on the left as well. Just as like 2579 02:39:10,560 --> 02:39:12,840 Speaker 1: an aesthetic thing, we all want to live on a 2580 02:39:12,920 --> 02:39:15,760 Speaker 1: small farm in the world. That makes it the cottage 2581 02:39:15,840 --> 02:39:18,160 Speaker 1: core that we're talking about is specifically the idea of 2582 02:39:18,600 --> 02:39:21,280 Speaker 1: I want to own a woman and and own my 2583 02:39:21,440 --> 02:39:24,480 Speaker 1: children and have like no no power capable of like 2584 02:39:24,640 --> 02:39:27,879 Speaker 1: stopping me from yeah whatever, because like cottage cottage, corn 2585 02:39:27,959 --> 02:39:31,440 Speaker 1: TikTok is pretty sanitized and pretty much like more of 2586 02:39:31,480 --> 02:39:35,160 Speaker 1: an aesthetic thing, less tied to those patriarchal structures. But anyway, 2587 02:39:35,280 --> 02:39:38,199 Speaker 1: like everything we're talking about, there's the version that's Nazis, 2588 02:39:38,240 --> 02:39:40,640 Speaker 1: and there's the version that's, like, boy, it sucks living 2589 02:39:40,680 --> 02:39:43,000 Speaker 1: in a four thousand dollar a month apartment in New 2590 02:39:43,080 --> 02:39:45,640 Speaker 1: York City that I share with nine people. I sure 2591 02:39:45,680 --> 02:39:49,240 Speaker 1: would like to live on a cottage in the woods. Anyway, 2592 02:39:49,360 --> 02:39:52,480 Speaker 1: speaking of living in college in these woods, Um, if 2593 02:39:52,560 --> 02:39:54,680 Speaker 1: you buy these products, it'll get you closer to your 2594 02:39:54,720 --> 02:39:58,959 Speaker 1: college core lifestyle. So give it away. Sponsored entirely by 2595 02:39:59,280 --> 02:40:06,360 Speaker 1: the concept big cottage, big cottage, the cottage industrial complex. Alright, 2596 02:40:06,480 --> 02:40:08,879 Speaker 1: we are back, and now we're talking about the point 2597 02:40:09,000 --> 02:40:12,080 Speaker 1: of the Nazi cat boy debate that everyone I think 2598 02:40:12,160 --> 02:40:15,520 Speaker 1: who is familiar with the topic knew was coming. No, 2599 02:40:15,920 --> 02:40:19,040 Speaker 1: no breakdown of Nazi cat boys and the Nazi catboy 2600 02:40:19,080 --> 02:40:23,800 Speaker 1: phenomenon is complete without talking about Nick Flintez and Catboy Cammy. 2601 02:40:24,000 --> 02:40:27,760 Speaker 1: So Nick Flintes, Yeah, this is uh, this is this 2602 02:40:27,879 --> 02:40:28,879 Speaker 1: is part of the part of the show that ever 2603 02:40:29,000 --> 02:40:31,760 Speaker 1: that everyone's been waiting for. Um. I don't know that 2604 02:40:31,840 --> 02:40:33,920 Speaker 1: most people would know to be waiting for this, but 2605 02:40:35,920 --> 02:40:40,520 Speaker 1: broadly recognized by our audience. So in short, if George 2606 02:40:40,560 --> 02:40:44,200 Speaker 1: Lincoln Rockwell has the permanent body of a seventeen year 2607 02:40:44,240 --> 02:40:49,200 Speaker 1: old boy, um, that that's Nick Flintest as many if 2608 02:40:49,200 --> 02:40:52,039 Speaker 1: you know, Nick Flintes is a white nationalist livestreamer political 2609 02:40:52,120 --> 02:40:57,120 Speaker 1: activists that runs the Fascist America First organization. Uh. He's 2610 02:40:57,160 --> 02:40:59,880 Speaker 1: known for fostering a farther right conservative base than say 2611 02:41:00,000 --> 02:41:03,440 Speaker 1: and Shapiro or Turning Point USA. Um, and has pulled 2612 02:41:03,480 --> 02:41:07,959 Speaker 1: stunts like sending his fans called gropers to Turning Point 2613 02:41:08,040 --> 02:41:10,520 Speaker 1: USA events to take over the Q and A sections 2614 02:41:10,920 --> 02:41:15,760 Speaker 1: and basically asked Charlie Kirk why he isn't more fascist? Um. Yeah, 2615 02:41:15,920 --> 02:41:18,880 Speaker 1: And so he runs this whole organization mostly known by 2616 02:41:18,959 --> 02:41:21,240 Speaker 1: doing his Daily Lives streams. He's been doing this since 2617 02:41:21,280 --> 02:41:25,560 Speaker 1: he's like sixteen or seventeen years old. Fucking nonsense. Um. 2618 02:41:27,160 --> 02:41:31,000 Speaker 1: And it's kind of a running joke or widely acknowledged 2619 02:41:31,040 --> 02:41:34,880 Speaker 1: secret that Nick is kind of gay. Um. Based on 2620 02:41:34,920 --> 02:41:36,840 Speaker 1: the way he talks about women, and based on what 2621 02:41:36,879 --> 02:41:39,840 Speaker 1: he said about his own dating history and snide comments 2622 02:41:39,959 --> 02:41:42,879 Speaker 1: from fellow home Homo Nazi friends has led a lot, 2623 02:41:43,120 --> 02:41:44,879 Speaker 1: has led a lot of people to to this conclusion 2624 02:41:45,200 --> 02:41:48,400 Speaker 1: that Nick may not be again the straightest stick in 2625 02:41:48,520 --> 02:41:55,600 Speaker 1: the fascists. UM, thank you, thank you, thank you one. 2626 02:41:56,160 --> 02:41:59,680 Speaker 1: And as as a significant contributing factor to this like question, 2627 02:41:59,800 --> 02:42:06,960 Speaker 1: the nixt sexuality um is due to his catboy arc. Um. 2628 02:42:07,480 --> 02:42:14,680 Speaker 1: So so this this arc begins in January, UM, finally 2629 02:42:14,760 --> 02:42:19,520 Speaker 1: giving our audience the important important news. This is what 2630 02:42:19,680 --> 02:42:24,080 Speaker 1: you need to know people. That month, Nick created a 2631 02:42:24,320 --> 02:42:28,640 Speaker 1: catboy themed channel in his own America first Discord server 2632 02:42:29,959 --> 02:42:35,240 Speaker 1: with Nick, with Nick messaging post catboys in here, please 2633 02:42:35,680 --> 02:42:40,240 Speaker 1: with with weird capitalizations throughout the throughout the thing. So 2634 02:42:40,920 --> 02:42:44,240 Speaker 1: Nick cheered on along with other people, posting pictures of 2635 02:42:44,360 --> 02:42:48,000 Speaker 1: various cat boys from pop culture and cat boy edits 2636 02:42:48,320 --> 02:42:55,000 Speaker 1: of Nick Fintez himself. UM. One America First Server user 2637 02:42:55,360 --> 02:43:03,000 Speaker 1: posted cat boys are trad and which means like traditional 2638 02:43:03,520 --> 02:43:07,200 Speaker 1: list in kind of the sense that like Nazis are traditionalist. 2639 02:43:07,360 --> 02:43:10,000 Speaker 1: That's that's what that person is saying. He also posted 2640 02:43:10,240 --> 02:43:14,880 Speaker 1: very funny. He also posted cat boys were like cath boys. 2641 02:43:15,800 --> 02:43:22,680 Speaker 1: Oh god, so like again Yeah, yeah, so that's that's 2642 02:43:22,800 --> 02:43:28,840 Speaker 1: that's the that's the joke. I'm you're, you're, you're out 2643 02:43:28,879 --> 02:43:32,280 Speaker 1: of control right now. This is it is so I've 2644 02:43:32,360 --> 02:43:35,800 Speaker 1: I've looked through this discord. He's arguing, this isn't very funny. 2645 02:43:36,680 --> 02:43:39,520 Speaker 1: I've looked through this discord server multiple times for the 2646 02:43:39,680 --> 02:43:42,840 Speaker 1: for the screenshots when you have the cathboy channel, and 2647 02:43:42,920 --> 02:43:45,240 Speaker 1: it always makes me happy. It is. It's one of 2648 02:43:45,280 --> 02:43:48,959 Speaker 1: the most funny things I've ever seen. Yeah, as as 2649 02:43:49,000 --> 02:43:51,680 Speaker 1: your friend, I'm always warring between wanting you to be 2650 02:43:51,800 --> 02:43:54,280 Speaker 1: happy and worried that this is a cry for help, 2651 02:43:54,520 --> 02:44:00,560 Speaker 1: but please continue. Eventually, Nick faced some pushback from inside 2652 02:44:00,600 --> 02:44:05,960 Speaker 1: the server for fostering degeneracy um with with others with 2653 02:44:06,840 --> 02:44:10,440 Speaker 1: with others defending the Catboy channel by saying, brother, we 2654 02:44:10,520 --> 02:44:16,320 Speaker 1: love is Christian amazing and standing see this is this 2655 02:44:16,560 --> 02:44:18,680 Speaker 1: is this is exactly, this is the good ship. This 2656 02:44:18,840 --> 02:44:21,880 Speaker 1: is what we've been building towards as a civilization, right there, baby. 2657 02:44:24,120 --> 02:44:27,360 Speaker 1: Other people other people defended the Catboy channel by saying, 2658 02:44:27,800 --> 02:44:33,279 Speaker 1: women don't respect Christianity. Your tribes thoughttery always leaks out eventually. 2659 02:44:33,959 --> 02:44:40,440 Speaker 1: Good God, yes, that's that's that's the good stuff I got. 2660 02:44:40,680 --> 02:44:43,680 Speaker 1: I got no comment, just just perfect thank you. But 2661 02:44:44,120 --> 02:44:47,080 Speaker 1: but because Nick is fundamentally a coward, he did cave 2662 02:44:47,200 --> 02:44:51,680 Speaker 1: under pressure and deleted the catboy channel. Um, we we lost. 2663 02:44:52,000 --> 02:44:54,160 Speaker 1: I think the American First movement today could be so 2664 02:44:54,320 --> 02:44:57,320 Speaker 1: different if he kept this is this is why the 2665 02:44:57,440 --> 02:45:02,240 Speaker 1: cause of Americanism is doomed, this kind of cowardice. But 2666 02:45:02,480 --> 02:45:06,600 Speaker 1: but but as as we will see from Nick, oh 2667 02:45:06,760 --> 02:45:09,959 Speaker 1: absolutely this this whole, this whole sections about Nick Fintest 2668 02:45:10,040 --> 02:45:16,280 Speaker 1: being thoroughly cocked. But as as we will see, Nick 2669 02:45:16,400 --> 02:45:20,760 Speaker 1: continued to use um the exact rhetoric I laid out 2670 02:45:21,240 --> 02:45:24,120 Speaker 1: in my in Sales gammer Gate and antifeminist section while 2671 02:45:24,200 --> 02:45:29,080 Speaker 1: defending what he calls attraction to traps um and we can, 2672 02:45:29,200 --> 02:45:31,440 Speaker 1: of course, we can apply this this defense broadly to 2673 02:45:31,520 --> 02:45:35,240 Speaker 1: catboys and from boys, as Nick does. Um, I'm going 2674 02:45:35,320 --> 02:45:38,080 Speaker 1: to try to I'm going to try to play a 2675 02:45:38,240 --> 02:45:43,720 Speaker 1: video of about about Nick fuentas um our traps gay? Yeah, 2676 02:45:43,760 --> 02:45:46,960 Speaker 1: traps are gay. I've always maintained traps are gay. Of 2677 02:45:47,040 --> 02:45:48,840 Speaker 1: course you have sex with the man, it's gay. There's 2678 02:45:48,879 --> 02:45:54,080 Speaker 1: no getting around now. Now, that's said. That's said, Look, 2679 02:45:54,560 --> 02:45:58,160 Speaker 1: it's gay. I get it. I agree. Now that's said, 2680 02:45:58,280 --> 02:46:01,160 Speaker 1: it's you know, we're in times where the women are 2681 02:46:01,360 --> 02:46:03,959 Speaker 1: not really meeting their obligations. So I'm not saying you're not. Look, 2682 02:46:03,959 --> 02:46:05,840 Speaker 1: if you have sex with the trap, you're game, no 2683 02:46:05,959 --> 02:46:07,440 Speaker 1: doubt about that, and you should be ready killed, you 2684 02:46:07,480 --> 02:46:09,800 Speaker 1: should be made fun of. But it's a little bit 2685 02:46:09,840 --> 02:46:11,879 Speaker 1: different than if you did it like twenty years ago. 2686 02:46:12,000 --> 02:46:14,920 Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. If you in the nineteen sixties, 2687 02:46:15,040 --> 02:46:17,240 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties were banging a trap, I would 2688 02:46:17,280 --> 02:46:20,000 Speaker 1: say what's wrong with you? Like I would say that now. 2689 02:46:20,160 --> 02:46:22,240 Speaker 1: I would say that now, I would say, well, you're 2690 02:46:22,320 --> 02:46:25,120 Speaker 1: some kind of sick freak. We have all these beautiful 2691 02:46:25,160 --> 02:46:28,320 Speaker 1: girls and they're normal, you know, and you have sex 2692 02:46:28,360 --> 02:46:31,960 Speaker 1: with a trap. What's wrong with you? But in nineteen 2693 02:46:32,000 --> 02:46:34,320 Speaker 1: it's like, well, it's it's different. It's a different circumstance, 2694 02:46:34,400 --> 02:46:38,560 Speaker 1: different options. There're still disavowed, I disavow, it's condemned, it's gay, 2695 02:46:38,640 --> 02:46:40,280 Speaker 1: it's all that. But you know, it's just different. I 2696 02:46:40,320 --> 02:46:46,440 Speaker 1: think everybody understands that. But I'm still listen to half 2697 02:46:46,440 --> 02:46:48,800 Speaker 1: a little just have to have a little nuance all right, 2698 02:46:48,879 --> 02:46:53,199 Speaker 1: it's just a little nuance different times to different times. 2699 02:46:53,240 --> 02:46:58,640 Speaker 1: It's I maintain strong disavowal, strong disavowal, do not do 2700 02:46:58,879 --> 02:47:03,039 Speaker 1: not do that. It's gay, it's immoral. You're going to hell, 2701 02:47:03,200 --> 02:47:06,920 Speaker 1: and it's weird and it's gross. Oh my god, what's 2702 02:47:06,959 --> 02:47:13,560 Speaker 1: wrong with you? Yeah, I haven't heard that one in 2703 02:47:13,600 --> 02:47:18,360 Speaker 1: a minute, person, I'm upset. That was horrible. You don't 2704 02:47:18,360 --> 02:47:21,880 Speaker 1: heard femoids since the David Sereni days, which looks at 2705 02:47:21,920 --> 02:47:25,039 Speaker 1: home if you don't, if you if you missed David Serene, 2706 02:47:25,280 --> 02:47:27,800 Speaker 1: you missed the one brief moment where the far right 2707 02:47:28,080 --> 02:47:35,520 Speaker 1: was purely funny. That was bad. So so being the worst. 2708 02:47:35,680 --> 02:47:38,640 Speaker 1: So yes, being being attracted to traps makes makes it gay, 2709 02:47:38,680 --> 02:47:41,560 Speaker 1: according to him, But not really, because the female race 2710 02:47:41,640 --> 02:47:43,440 Speaker 1: isn't carrying their burden like it once did back in 2711 02:47:43,520 --> 02:47:47,320 Speaker 1: the sixties. It's like back in back in back in 2712 02:47:47,440 --> 02:47:50,760 Speaker 1: the old days of the nineteen sixties. It's it's like 2713 02:47:50,840 --> 02:47:56,120 Speaker 1: they've almost gotten back to the like the I mean, 2714 02:47:56,160 --> 02:47:59,280 Speaker 1: I guess it probably still sor but like the thing 2715 02:47:59,360 --> 02:48:01,920 Speaker 1: you got with that just sometimes where they were like, yeah, 2716 02:48:02,040 --> 02:48:04,240 Speaker 1: like I fucked, but I'm a top. So it's not gay. 2717 02:48:04,640 --> 02:48:09,840 Speaker 1: It's like like so close there, They're so close, and 2718 02:48:09,920 --> 02:48:15,040 Speaker 1: it's like it's not like Roy Cone kind of yeah. Yeah, 2719 02:48:15,080 --> 02:48:18,560 Speaker 1: it's like I think I think like I think once 2720 02:48:18,640 --> 02:48:22,120 Speaker 1: we get like just slightly like maybe like twenty more 2721 02:48:22,280 --> 02:48:26,080 Speaker 1: years out from like the evangelical evangelicalism as I don't know, 2722 02:48:26,600 --> 02:48:28,360 Speaker 1: I mean maybe maybe maybe it's resurgen is gonna be 2723 02:48:28,400 --> 02:48:31,600 Speaker 1: like a big enough heyday thing. But it's like I think, 2724 02:48:31,640 --> 02:48:34,320 Speaker 1: if you had like twenty years with the right wasn't 2725 02:48:34,440 --> 02:48:38,320 Speaker 1: completely dominated by a certain evangelical homophobia, like I think 2726 02:48:38,360 --> 02:48:41,760 Speaker 1: you would just get back there and well, we're already 2727 02:48:41,800 --> 02:48:46,400 Speaker 1: on that way. And it's but the Nick Funt has 2728 02:48:46,480 --> 02:48:49,520 Speaker 1: kept by saga, let's not stop here. No no, no, no, no, 2729 02:48:49,640 --> 02:48:54,080 Speaker 1: no I am It is funny, maybe the wrong word, 2730 02:48:54,280 --> 02:48:58,000 Speaker 1: but fascinating that we are heading inevitably barreling towards this 2731 02:48:58,120 --> 02:49:02,200 Speaker 1: future where simultane neviously homophobia is still a massive part 2732 02:49:02,280 --> 02:49:06,640 Speaker 1: of conservative politics and conservatives are gay as hell. Like 2733 02:49:07,760 --> 02:49:11,960 Speaker 1: that's that's absolutely something where we are speeding towards like 2734 02:49:12,440 --> 02:49:14,840 Speaker 1: a drunken family on the back of a four wheeler 2735 02:49:14,920 --> 02:49:18,040 Speaker 1: about to break all of their necks at once and 2736 02:49:18,920 --> 02:49:22,360 Speaker 1: crash in the woods. So Nick Fuentes love tweeting about 2737 02:49:22,400 --> 02:49:26,640 Speaker 1: cat boys. He didn't a lot, And for a while, 2738 02:49:27,080 --> 02:49:30,519 Speaker 1: Nick's cat boy jokes and like a memory was tolerated 2739 02:49:30,720 --> 02:49:34,760 Speaker 1: under his banner of like irony poisoned reactionary comedy. But 2740 02:49:34,920 --> 02:49:37,800 Speaker 1: every ironic joke has a stipping point that makes that 2741 02:49:37,840 --> 02:49:42,280 Speaker 1: makes enough people wonder is this actually ironic? Uh? And 2742 02:49:42,520 --> 02:49:45,520 Speaker 1: for Fuentes, that moment came when he live streamed a 2743 02:49:45,600 --> 02:49:48,320 Speaker 1: ten hour date with a fellow fascist live streamer who 2744 02:49:48,360 --> 02:49:52,320 Speaker 1: went by the name cat Boy Cammy. Now, first let's 2745 02:49:52,400 --> 02:49:55,960 Speaker 1: let me explain who cat Boy Cammy wasn't at the time. 2746 02:49:56,280 --> 02:49:59,360 Speaker 1: Then we'll get into the date that that we'll get 2747 02:49:59,360 --> 02:50:03,199 Speaker 1: into Nick went as his brief altright cancelation, so Tour 2748 02:50:03,320 --> 02:50:06,240 Speaker 1: Brooks a k a. Cowboy Cammy, formerly going under the 2749 02:50:06,640 --> 02:50:11,320 Speaker 1: user name lolly Socks. So that's fun. Um is an 2750 02:50:11,360 --> 02:50:15,040 Speaker 1: Australian fascist live streamer who first came to prominence by 2751 02:50:15,120 --> 02:50:18,560 Speaker 1: uploading clips of himself harassing users on the popular video 2752 02:50:18,720 --> 02:50:23,320 Speaker 1: chatting site Oh mowgli Ogilby. I ever know how to 2753 02:50:23,320 --> 02:50:31,240 Speaker 1: say this? One mogul little emogli people here, people, people 2754 02:50:31,240 --> 02:50:32,760 Speaker 1: will know what I'm talking about. It's this it's this 2755 02:50:32,920 --> 02:50:37,879 Speaker 1: randomized chatting app that does video chatting with the randomized users. 2756 02:50:38,600 --> 02:50:41,280 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's O M E G L E. I 2757 02:50:41,360 --> 02:50:43,440 Speaker 1: never know how to say it, but it's this. He 2758 02:50:43,920 --> 02:50:46,880 Speaker 1: would he would upload himself videos of him harassing people 2759 02:50:47,560 --> 02:50:50,400 Speaker 1: via via this chatting app. UM. In one of them, 2760 02:50:50,600 --> 02:50:54,039 Speaker 1: he dressed his up in black face and while brandishing 2761 02:50:54,120 --> 02:50:56,080 Speaker 1: guns and trying to he was trying to find like 2762 02:50:56,200 --> 02:51:00,080 Speaker 1: black black kids to taunt on this platform. Another one 2763 02:51:00,080 --> 02:51:02,600 Speaker 1: he dressed up as a policeman UM and kneels and 2764 02:51:02,640 --> 02:51:06,360 Speaker 1: an effigy he made likeness of George Floyd. Um, he 2765 02:51:06,480 --> 02:51:08,920 Speaker 1: it's it's he is, he is. He is pretty gross. Uh, 2766 02:51:09,000 --> 02:51:11,440 Speaker 1: he's he's he's he's a pretty horrible person. But for 2767 02:51:11,520 --> 02:51:15,360 Speaker 1: a long time, his bit was dressing up in anime 2768 02:51:15,480 --> 02:51:19,280 Speaker 1: costumes and dressing up as a catboy. Uh to then 2769 02:51:19,400 --> 02:51:22,280 Speaker 1: talk about like neo Nazi rhetoric. Well, dressed as a 2770 02:51:22,280 --> 02:51:24,280 Speaker 1: catboy and this this was his funny bit that he 2771 02:51:24,320 --> 02:51:27,000 Speaker 1: would do. UM. At one point he was streaming like 2772 02:51:27,080 --> 02:51:30,240 Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day, uh, for ten days, for 2773 02:51:30,360 --> 02:51:31,840 Speaker 1: like for the for the days and days on end 2774 02:51:32,200 --> 02:51:34,640 Speaker 1: um and he was earning thousands of followers from places 2775 02:51:34,680 --> 02:51:37,560 Speaker 1: like US and Russia. Uh and he became the seventh 2776 02:51:37,640 --> 02:51:40,880 Speaker 1: highest earning streamer on d live and d live was 2777 02:51:40,920 --> 02:51:44,240 Speaker 1: a popular live streaming platform used by fascists um in 2778 02:51:44,680 --> 02:51:47,320 Speaker 1: and so in late twenty nineteen was when Cowboy Cammy 2779 02:51:47,400 --> 02:51:50,560 Speaker 1: popped up like in America, initially catching the attention of 2780 02:51:50,720 --> 02:51:53,800 Speaker 1: Nick Fuentez. Over over the course of a few months. 2781 02:51:54,040 --> 02:51:57,000 Speaker 1: UH he kind of made friends with various people in 2782 02:51:57,160 --> 02:52:01,880 Speaker 1: the American far right internet sphere, like Milo Richard Spencer 2783 02:52:02,520 --> 02:52:06,360 Speaker 1: Baked Alaska, but but Nick Fuentes was his original kind 2784 02:52:06,360 --> 02:52:09,880 Speaker 1: of entry point into this. Nick saw Nick saw his 2785 02:52:10,000 --> 02:52:13,800 Speaker 1: videos online and was interested in like what he was doing. Uh. 2786 02:52:13,959 --> 02:52:15,680 Speaker 1: Nick said that he had a good sense of humor, 2787 02:52:16,000 --> 02:52:20,080 Speaker 1: and he's good looking, and demonstrated and demonstrated his repeatability 2788 02:52:20,200 --> 02:52:22,520 Speaker 1: that he's able to achieve viral moments and retain a 2789 02:52:22,640 --> 02:52:26,080 Speaker 1: streaming audience. So Nick became friends with him because he 2790 02:52:26,200 --> 02:52:28,920 Speaker 1: thought Cowboy Camy would be like a growing internet presence. 2791 02:52:29,200 --> 02:52:32,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of move his his type of 2792 02:52:32,600 --> 02:52:35,720 Speaker 1: like his type of pretty like racist and horrible like 2793 02:52:35,840 --> 02:52:38,520 Speaker 1: joke pranks, and tried to give them more, give them 2794 02:52:38,560 --> 02:52:43,160 Speaker 1: more of a platform to kind of frontline reactionary ideologies. Um. 2795 02:52:43,640 --> 02:52:46,080 Speaker 1: So when when Nick was getting familiar with Kawboy Cammy 2796 02:52:46,280 --> 02:52:49,720 Speaker 1: Cammy on online activities were mainly consisting of dressing up 2797 02:52:49,720 --> 02:52:52,360 Speaker 1: as an ANIMI cowboy to do random like political debates 2798 02:52:52,520 --> 02:52:54,680 Speaker 1: or live streams or show it like anime conventions to 2799 02:52:54,720 --> 02:52:58,279 Speaker 1: harass people, um and doing like various gags and pranks. 2800 02:52:59,080 --> 02:53:03,440 Speaker 1: One of the most infamous incidents was when he was 2801 02:53:03,720 --> 02:53:06,520 Speaker 1: deep throating a massive horse cock dildo hooked up to 2802 02:53:06,640 --> 02:53:11,200 Speaker 1: a bucket of fake semen. Um good, okay, yeah, so 2803 02:53:11,920 --> 02:53:17,560 Speaker 1: in December, in December, Catboy Cammy flew from Australia to 2804 02:53:17,680 --> 02:53:22,840 Speaker 1: go visiton No, the semen was fake? It was? It 2805 02:53:22,959 --> 02:53:26,080 Speaker 1: was Oh okay, gotcha it was. It was a massive 2806 02:53:26,080 --> 02:53:28,720 Speaker 1: horse cock dildoo hooked up to a bucket of like 2807 02:53:28,760 --> 02:53:31,320 Speaker 1: fake semen. Right, okay, so just like corn starch and 2808 02:53:31,440 --> 02:53:33,320 Speaker 1: I'm happy. Yeah, if we want to go of a 2809 02:53:33,360 --> 02:53:35,880 Speaker 1: recipe's later, I'm sure we could make that a whole episode. 2810 02:53:35,959 --> 02:53:40,160 Speaker 1: But now I know how to make fake come. In December, 2811 02:53:41,560 --> 02:53:45,359 Speaker 1: Catboy Cavy flew from Australia to go visit Nick Fuentez 2812 02:53:46,200 --> 02:53:50,000 Speaker 1: and then just proceeded to live stream the ten hour 2813 02:53:50,280 --> 02:53:53,680 Speaker 1: totally straight hangout session with Catboy Camy dressed up as 2814 02:53:53,680 --> 02:53:55,720 Speaker 1: a cowboy the entire time. I mean, this does sound 2815 02:53:55,920 --> 02:53:58,920 Speaker 1: very straight to me. They go to they go to 2816 02:53:59,000 --> 02:54:03,280 Speaker 1: an arcade, they play games together, they get food and milkshakes. 2817 02:54:03,680 --> 02:54:07,320 Speaker 1: They go clothing shopping and try on matching outfits, um, 2818 02:54:07,600 --> 02:54:11,680 Speaker 1: all while laughing and giggling the entire time. Um well, 2819 02:54:11,959 --> 02:54:15,680 Speaker 1: while uh well, uh while driving and listening to extremely 2820 02:54:15,760 --> 02:54:18,960 Speaker 1: gay pop music. Catboy Cammy says to Nick that he 2821 02:54:19,120 --> 02:54:21,920 Speaker 1: reminds them of an X. It's great and by the 2822 02:54:22,080 --> 02:54:24,000 Speaker 1: end of the ten hour stream, it's implied that they 2823 02:54:24,080 --> 02:54:26,560 Speaker 1: it's it's the end of stream. It's implied that they 2824 02:54:26,600 --> 02:54:30,560 Speaker 1: share a room for the night. Um. Sure they did. 2825 02:54:31,320 --> 02:54:37,000 Speaker 1: And it's ten hours of pure horrible Nazi flirting and 2826 02:54:37,080 --> 02:54:42,040 Speaker 1: it's it's pretty. It's it's a thing. It exists. Um 2827 02:54:42,640 --> 02:54:45,480 Speaker 1: But as so as news and details of the live 2828 02:54:45,560 --> 02:54:49,480 Speaker 1: stream uh started to circulate, a wave of a wave 2829 02:54:49,560 --> 02:54:52,440 Speaker 1: of infighting among the alt right and the gropers spawned 2830 02:54:52,600 --> 02:54:56,400 Speaker 1: some amazing articles and headlines from neo Nazi news sites. Uh. 2831 02:54:56,560 --> 02:55:00,240 Speaker 1: There's a headline from the Daily Stormer called the Rowing 2832 02:55:00,280 --> 02:55:03,360 Speaker 1: for a Revolution is canceled after Nick Fuentes reveals to 2833 02:55:03,440 --> 02:55:10,480 Speaker 1: be a catboy and gay Fayett. It's just pretty pretty astonishing. Yeah, 2834 02:55:11,840 --> 02:55:15,160 Speaker 1: that sounds that sounds about right. And other other great headlines. 2835 02:55:15,240 --> 02:55:18,600 Speaker 1: We have a Fuentes disavows catboy after a pressure from 2836 02:55:18,680 --> 02:55:25,000 Speaker 1: trad news. If you're if you're sitting down and for 2837 02:55:25,200 --> 02:55:28,160 Speaker 1: your movement that you want to take over the government 2838 02:55:28,280 --> 02:55:32,640 Speaker 1: typing down Fuentes disavows cat boy. Perhaps you need to 2839 02:55:32,680 --> 02:55:36,199 Speaker 1: think about some things. We got another headline as catboy 2840 02:55:36,320 --> 02:55:40,560 Speaker 1: Candy versus Richard Spencer because Richard Spencer trying to cancel 2841 02:55:41,040 --> 02:55:45,560 Speaker 1: Nick for this because Nick was getting more popular than him. Um. 2842 02:55:46,520 --> 02:55:49,080 Speaker 1: And we have then another great headline just a Nick 2843 02:55:49,160 --> 02:55:58,400 Speaker 1: Fuentes catboy BFF is a mockery to his sexuality anyway, 2844 02:55:58,640 --> 02:56:00,960 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's pretty good. There's this this great this 2845 02:56:01,040 --> 02:56:03,400 Speaker 1: is this this great? Um. A bit from one of 2846 02:56:03,440 --> 02:56:05,720 Speaker 1: these articles, which which which which which I'll quote. So 2847 02:56:05,959 --> 02:56:08,400 Speaker 1: it starts to start off by saying, is Nick Fuente 2848 02:56:08,480 --> 02:56:10,800 Speaker 1: is attracted to women? If you trusted the plan, you 2849 02:56:10,840 --> 02:56:13,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't ask such questions. I will say that I don't 2850 02:56:13,920 --> 02:56:16,880 Speaker 1: think the ten hour live stream helps King Nick of 2851 02:56:17,000 --> 02:56:19,280 Speaker 1: the Grappers. At the moment he had a good thing 2852 02:56:19,320 --> 02:56:21,360 Speaker 1: going by trying to promote a more Christian and normal 2853 02:56:21,440 --> 02:56:24,160 Speaker 1: presenting nationalist movement and was getting a lot of traction 2854 02:56:24,360 --> 02:56:27,680 Speaker 1: until he ruined his image by associating it with this. 2855 02:56:28,520 --> 02:56:30,800 Speaker 1: None of his various enemies did this to him either. 2856 02:56:31,040 --> 02:56:38,040 Speaker 1: He did it entirely to himself. So yeah, um but like, obviously, 2857 02:56:38,120 --> 02:56:41,000 Speaker 1: like the point of this is not to like, not 2858 02:56:41,200 --> 02:56:45,240 Speaker 1: to like put Nick Fuentez's sexuality on blast, like I do, 2859 02:56:45,480 --> 02:56:48,800 Speaker 1: do not care one way or the other. Um, it's 2860 02:56:48,840 --> 02:56:51,920 Speaker 1: not a problem. The problem isn't is that. The problem 2861 02:56:52,000 --> 02:56:55,800 Speaker 1: isn't that Nick may find cat boys incredibly hot. Uh. 2862 02:56:56,040 --> 02:56:57,800 Speaker 1: But the problem is that he's like a Nazi and 2863 02:56:57,920 --> 02:57:01,440 Speaker 1: stuff and calls for the extermination of gay people while 2864 02:57:01,520 --> 02:57:05,760 Speaker 1: also doing all of this ship um and you know Nick, 2865 02:57:05,879 --> 02:57:08,520 Speaker 1: Nick still maintains that he isn't gay and gay people 2866 02:57:08,560 --> 02:57:11,760 Speaker 1: should be exiled from society and he would never associate 2867 02:57:11,800 --> 02:57:14,800 Speaker 1: with homosexuals blah blah blah blah blah, um, all while 2868 02:57:14,879 --> 02:57:20,760 Speaker 1: doing all this incredibly straight behavior. Um. Uh. For update 2869 02:57:20,800 --> 02:57:24,800 Speaker 1: on Catboy Cammy. Later, Catboy Cammy made multiple appearances That's 2870 02:57:24,959 --> 02:57:28,920 Speaker 1: Trump rallies and various other political events, going viral multiple 2871 02:57:28,959 --> 02:57:33,520 Speaker 1: times for screaming incredibly racist, anti Semitic and openly fascist rants. Um. 2872 02:57:34,080 --> 02:57:37,760 Speaker 1: You probably saw footage of catboy Cammy in Um. He 2873 02:57:37,879 --> 02:57:39,560 Speaker 1: was just just, he was just he was just dressed 2874 02:57:39,560 --> 02:57:42,200 Speaker 1: as like a regular person. But he there was a 2875 02:57:42,360 --> 02:57:44,440 Speaker 1: few clips of him at Trump rallies that went very 2876 02:57:44,600 --> 02:57:49,960 Speaker 1: very viral. Um and Nick even u disowned disavowed catboy 2877 02:57:50,000 --> 02:57:54,840 Speaker 1: camy for bad optics. Uh. During during during these incredibly 2878 02:57:55,000 --> 02:57:57,160 Speaker 1: racist rants, he would he would go on at at 2879 02:57:57,200 --> 02:57:59,720 Speaker 1: at Trump rallies. Um. And then of course we have 2880 02:57:59,760 --> 02:58:03,800 Speaker 1: a mayor America First and uh and and Nick Fuentez 2881 02:58:03,920 --> 02:58:06,680 Speaker 1: then being you know, an escalating part of the protests 2882 02:58:06,800 --> 02:58:11,640 Speaker 1: in d C leading to January six. Um, we have 2883 02:58:12,320 --> 02:58:16,160 Speaker 1: the person alleged to have stolen Nancy Polosi's laptop being 2884 02:58:16,360 --> 02:58:21,320 Speaker 1: in those America First discord servers and uh and grooming 2885 02:58:22,200 --> 02:58:25,039 Speaker 1: young boys by dressing up as a cat girl. Um 2886 02:58:25,840 --> 02:58:29,160 Speaker 1: So all part of all, part of this will get 2887 02:58:29,200 --> 02:58:31,680 Speaker 1: talked about later in like these articles and stuff. This 2888 02:58:31,760 --> 02:58:34,360 Speaker 1: has not been talked about. Some people already know about it. 2889 02:58:34,760 --> 02:58:37,280 Speaker 1: But but yes, um, so it's all part of this 2890 02:58:37,400 --> 02:58:41,440 Speaker 1: same like Nick Fuentez catboy sect of things of these 2891 02:58:41,520 --> 02:58:44,000 Speaker 1: these like people who who call themselves tread cats who 2892 02:58:44,080 --> 02:58:46,480 Speaker 1: then do all this weird cat boy shit. And yes, 2893 02:58:46,800 --> 02:58:49,040 Speaker 1: the the person who stole people laptop who was like 2894 02:58:49,080 --> 02:58:53,280 Speaker 1: an open Nazi, UM was was grooming like miners on 2895 02:58:53,480 --> 02:58:55,960 Speaker 1: on discord by dressing up this cat girl, by by 2896 02:58:56,680 --> 02:59:00,280 Speaker 1: dressing up with a cat girl. Um. Yeah, so there's 2897 02:59:00,320 --> 02:59:02,160 Speaker 1: a whole buch of this, this whole sphere of stuff. 2898 02:59:02,200 --> 02:59:09,400 Speaker 1: You can find some incredibly dark dark corners. Um. But nowadays, uh, 2899 02:59:09,640 --> 02:59:13,560 Speaker 1: in the Year of Our Lord, UH, fem boys are 2900 02:59:13,959 --> 02:59:16,360 Speaker 1: way more of like it's like generally acknowledged to be 2901 02:59:16,400 --> 02:59:18,080 Speaker 1: like a kind of like a leftist like communist thing 2902 02:59:18,120 --> 02:59:21,520 Speaker 1: almost um like and and I think the reason why 2903 02:59:21,600 --> 02:59:24,520 Speaker 1: this debate got so I think the reason why the 2904 02:59:24,560 --> 02:59:26,800 Speaker 1: fascist like the fascist femboy debate got so kind of 2905 02:59:27,040 --> 02:59:29,360 Speaker 1: heightened in the past few years, like ever since, like 2906 02:59:29,400 --> 02:59:32,600 Speaker 1: tumbler band porn, Uh, there's been a migration of tumbloy 2907 02:59:32,680 --> 02:59:35,119 Speaker 1: users onto Twitter, and a part of part a part 2908 02:59:35,160 --> 02:59:37,840 Speaker 1: of this migration is not sake for work users and 2909 02:59:37,920 --> 02:59:41,520 Speaker 1: content um, including fem boys and people who fetishize fem 2910 02:59:41,560 --> 02:59:44,920 Speaker 1: boys and even fetishized racist fem boys moving moving on 2911 02:59:45,000 --> 02:59:46,840 Speaker 1: to Twitter, right, Twitter has become the new has become 2912 02:59:46,879 --> 02:59:49,320 Speaker 1: the new de facto tumbler in a lot of senses. 2913 02:59:49,640 --> 02:59:51,680 Speaker 1: So the past three years, more and more normalies have 2914 02:59:51,720 --> 02:59:55,000 Speaker 1: been exposed to these types of like off the cuff people. Um. Then, 2915 02:59:55,040 --> 02:59:57,600 Speaker 1: of course TikTok has sent fem boys into the mainstream 2916 02:59:57,640 --> 03:00:00,400 Speaker 1: because TikTok is also it's not an image ward, but 2917 03:00:00,520 --> 03:00:02,640 Speaker 1: it is a visual medium right where you're posting small 2918 03:00:02,720 --> 03:00:04,800 Speaker 1: videos of yourselves. So a lot of a lot of 2919 03:00:04,879 --> 03:00:07,480 Speaker 1: cat boy and fenboy content on TikTok. There's even this 2920 03:00:07,560 --> 03:00:12,280 Speaker 1: horrible article from two from August by Vice called introducing 2921 03:00:12,520 --> 03:00:14,959 Speaker 1: fem boys the most wholesome trend on TikTok, as if 2922 03:00:15,000 --> 03:00:22,040 Speaker 1: fenb boys were invented in mind boggling article of But yeah, 2923 03:00:22,080 --> 03:00:24,560 Speaker 1: fenboys are now much more. If you take the Vice 2924 03:00:24,640 --> 03:00:27,480 Speaker 1: article as an example, fen boys are now fully mainstreamed. Right. 2925 03:00:27,840 --> 03:00:30,600 Speaker 1: Fenboys used to be a small subculture, but among gen 2926 03:00:30,760 --> 03:00:33,080 Speaker 1: Z kind of culture as a whole. Now fen boys 2927 03:00:33,120 --> 03:00:35,400 Speaker 1: are very popular. They are they are kind of they 2928 03:00:35,440 --> 03:00:37,160 Speaker 1: are one of one of like one of like the 2929 03:00:37,200 --> 03:00:41,200 Speaker 1: hot new pokemons to collect um And I'm going to 2930 03:00:41,760 --> 03:00:46,000 Speaker 1: har that's cultural appropriation from millennials. You're not allowed to 2931 03:00:46,040 --> 03:00:49,760 Speaker 1: talk about pokemons. I don't I don't care. We we 2932 03:00:49,920 --> 03:00:53,119 Speaker 1: own those. I just just to talk about like scale 2933 03:00:53,160 --> 03:00:55,040 Speaker 1: of memes here. I have some Google have some like 2934 03:00:55,080 --> 03:00:59,280 Speaker 1: Google trends, um on like Nazi cat boys and not 2935 03:00:59,440 --> 03:01:03,800 Speaker 1: see fem boys. Uh, and we see the mass The biggest, 2936 03:01:04,040 --> 03:01:10,920 Speaker 1: biggest spike in Nazi femboy is January of one, which 2937 03:01:11,000 --> 03:01:14,840 Speaker 1: makes sense that that's when I started writing this this script. Actually, um, 2938 03:01:15,200 --> 03:01:17,880 Speaker 1: you say yeah for for Google trends, we got a 2939 03:01:17,959 --> 03:01:20,920 Speaker 1: massive spike in January one, and it's kind of been 2940 03:01:20,959 --> 03:01:23,680 Speaker 1: decreasing since then, but still still like it was. It 2941 03:01:23,800 --> 03:01:25,800 Speaker 1: was like you would see blips every once in a while, 2942 03:01:25,800 --> 03:01:27,800 Speaker 1: like there's a small blip of Nazi fem boys in 2943 03:01:29,360 --> 03:01:33,120 Speaker 1: a small blip in and then a small blip at 2944 03:01:33,160 --> 03:01:36,440 Speaker 1: the start of the pandemic in March because people are 2945 03:01:36,480 --> 03:01:40,040 Speaker 1: alone and isolated so they're doing this instead. Um. And 2946 03:01:40,160 --> 03:01:45,240 Speaker 1: then yeah, January one, massive massive spike. UM the same 2947 03:01:45,280 --> 03:01:48,119 Speaker 1: thing with a very similar to racist fem Boy. It's 2948 03:01:48,160 --> 03:01:51,720 Speaker 1: basically the same exact trajectory. We do get a pretty 2949 03:01:51,720 --> 03:01:55,000 Speaker 1: big spike and racist fem boy in June of um 2950 03:01:55,080 --> 03:01:58,160 Speaker 1: and then another big spike of actually of November one 2951 03:01:58,480 --> 03:02:02,600 Speaker 1: is the highest. The highest searches for racist FM boy. 2952 03:02:02,720 --> 03:02:04,600 Speaker 1: So it's still very much an ongoing meme of like 2953 03:02:04,680 --> 03:02:06,680 Speaker 1: a thing I'll being like, yeah, femboys are pretty racist. 2954 03:02:06,800 --> 03:02:11,720 Speaker 1: It's still completely completely ongoing. Oh thank god, Yeah it is. 2955 03:02:11,800 --> 03:02:13,600 Speaker 1: It's don't worries, it's not. It's not a closed case. 2956 03:02:13,879 --> 03:02:16,440 Speaker 1: And that's good. Garrison. I was really worried for a second. 2957 03:02:17,040 --> 03:02:19,440 Speaker 1: No people, people, and this, Like I think, I think 2958 03:02:19,480 --> 03:02:21,960 Speaker 1: if you're not extremely online, you probably even like you 2959 03:02:22,040 --> 03:02:24,080 Speaker 1: might not know about this, Like this is like this 2960 03:02:24,200 --> 03:02:28,200 Speaker 1: is an actual discourse on Twitter, like like this there 2961 03:02:28,240 --> 03:02:31,080 Speaker 1: will be like a week We're the only thing people 2962 03:02:31,200 --> 03:02:34,240 Speaker 1: argue about is whether fem boys are inherently racist, which 2963 03:02:34,800 --> 03:02:40,120 Speaker 1: obviously they're not. Like it's it's so. And the last 2964 03:02:40,120 --> 03:02:43,200 Speaker 1: thing I'm gonna mention here is enemy is in the 2965 03:02:43,520 --> 03:02:46,959 Speaker 1: Is it the unicorn riot discord leaks? When they leaked 2966 03:02:47,000 --> 03:02:49,720 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of information from lots of different fascist chattels. 2967 03:02:50,040 --> 03:02:52,960 Speaker 1: We have over a thousand mentions of cat boys inside 2968 03:02:53,200 --> 03:02:58,360 Speaker 1: that you know, couldn't riot fascist discord leaks? Garrison. I 2969 03:02:58,440 --> 03:03:02,360 Speaker 1: have a question for you, Yes, do you think God 2970 03:03:02,480 --> 03:03:05,880 Speaker 1: stays in heaven because he too lives in fear of 2971 03:03:05,920 --> 03:03:10,760 Speaker 1: what he's created here on Earth. So if you want 2972 03:03:10,800 --> 03:03:12,560 Speaker 1: to have a fun time, you can go to Discord, 2973 03:03:12,640 --> 03:03:17,120 Speaker 1: Leaks dot Unicorn, Riot dot Ninja, um slash Discord slash search, 2974 03:03:17,600 --> 03:03:21,560 Speaker 1: then put in, put in catboy and scrolls skulls scrolls 2975 03:03:21,560 --> 03:03:25,959 Speaker 1: through thousands of posts from these Nazi channels, not mend 2976 03:03:26,080 --> 03:03:28,520 Speaker 1: cat for here we got stuff from like sar god 2977 03:03:28,560 --> 03:03:32,320 Speaker 1: of a cod the We have the Discord channel, Domestic 2978 03:03:32,520 --> 03:03:37,800 Speaker 1: Terrorism Planning, Discord Catboy channel, we of course have we 2979 03:03:37,840 --> 03:03:41,360 Speaker 1: of course have Nick Fuentez. We got every whatever you 2980 03:03:41,400 --> 03:03:45,000 Speaker 1: would look for, you can find it here. Um. And 2981 03:03:45,240 --> 03:03:47,600 Speaker 1: that is that is the curious case of Nazi catboys. 2982 03:03:47,760 --> 03:03:55,040 Speaker 1: So there there you go. Any any questions, Class Garrison, 2983 03:03:55,920 --> 03:03:57,880 Speaker 1: why why did you do this to us? Because I 2984 03:03:57,959 --> 03:04:02,240 Speaker 1: thought it would be funny? It is on the on 2985 03:04:02,360 --> 03:04:07,000 Speaker 1: the inside, it's funny anyway, happy Well that is uh 2986 03:04:07,160 --> 03:04:09,320 Speaker 1: so yeah, Now I hope, I hope you all have 2987 03:04:09,440 --> 03:04:13,000 Speaker 1: a better look into why the fascist femboy meme exists 2988 03:04:13,080 --> 03:04:15,760 Speaker 1: and how people can have the cognitive distance in their 2989 03:04:15,760 --> 03:04:19,400 Speaker 1: own heads in terms of you know, fetishing, fetishizing feminine 2990 03:04:19,440 --> 03:04:23,200 Speaker 1: attributes while still hating women and then leading into the 2991 03:04:23,320 --> 03:04:26,480 Speaker 1: Nick Fuentez catboy craze that has swept the nation as 2992 03:04:26,520 --> 03:04:31,080 Speaker 1: a whole. So just okay, just just just be queer 2993 03:04:31,440 --> 03:04:33,440 Speaker 1: and a leftist. You don't have to do the ship. 2994 03:04:33,520 --> 03:04:35,680 Speaker 1: You do not have to wrap your brain in fucking 2995 03:04:36,080 --> 03:04:41,400 Speaker 1: seventeen layers of bullshit of like weird misogyny. You can 2996 03:04:41,480 --> 03:04:45,760 Speaker 1: just just be gay and a leftist and as as 2997 03:04:45,879 --> 03:04:47,800 Speaker 1: we as we showed you can, you can. You can 2998 03:04:47,840 --> 03:04:50,600 Speaker 1: be a leftist. You can love Stalin and be a catboy. 2999 03:04:50,840 --> 03:04:53,880 Speaker 1: It's totally fine. I think you can be anything and 3000 03:04:54,000 --> 03:04:56,920 Speaker 1: be a catboy. That's that's the main message of the 3001 03:04:56,959 --> 03:05:00,320 Speaker 1: twenty one century. Vladimir Putin is going to come out 3002 03:05:00,400 --> 03:05:05,119 Speaker 1: as a catboy when he releases his next unhinged rant 3003 03:05:05,200 --> 03:05:09,440 Speaker 1: and support of J. K Rowling. That's that's that's where 3004 03:05:09,480 --> 03:05:12,080 Speaker 1: the discourse is headed. It's inevitable, it can't be stopped. 3005 03:05:13,000 --> 03:05:18,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to be Nick Fintes and Vladimir Putin holds 3006 03:05:18,400 --> 03:05:21,600 Speaker 1: cans being a cat boy. All right, Well that's where 3007 03:05:21,640 --> 03:05:23,640 Speaker 1: we're going. That doesn't for us today, everybody. If you 3008 03:05:23,680 --> 03:05:26,400 Speaker 1: wanna follow the show, you can follow us on Twitter 3009 03:05:26,440 --> 03:05:28,680 Speaker 1: and Instagram, at happen here pod and cool Zone Media. 3010 03:05:29,040 --> 03:05:35,080 Speaker 1: You can follow my catboy posting at Hungry bow tie. Um, yeah, yeah, 3011 03:05:35,680 --> 03:05:46,000 Speaker 1: yeah Hey. We'll be back Monday with more episodes every 3012 03:05:46,040 --> 03:05:48,240 Speaker 1: week from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3013 03:05:48,840 --> 03:05:51,200 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3014 03:05:51,440 --> 03:05:54,119 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3015 03:05:54,160 --> 03:05:56,240 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 3016 03:05:56,320 --> 03:05:58,800 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 3017 03:05:58,920 --> 03:06:01,680 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could 3018 03:06:01,680 --> 03:06:04,640 Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com 3019 03:06:04,760 --> 03:06:06,600 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.