1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: I've been O'Brien and it's like mid April, guys, Turkey 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: seasons here springs, rolling on when. This week we are 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 1: joined by Miles Nolte, the director of Fishing here at 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: the Mediator. We're talking about all kinds of crazy things. 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: We're talking about two big foot enthusiasts that were dressed 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: in costumes and they were having sex outside and what happened. Next, 8 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: we're talking about a young boy in Vancouver Island who 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: was attacked by a pair of mountain lion cubs and 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: saved by his mom. So we're talking about that that 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: piece of news. We're talking about the craft of writing 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: and our guests this week, which happens to be Hal Herring. 13 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: He's the host of the Cast and Blast podcast that's 14 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: put out there by b J which is Backlash your 15 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: Hunters and Anglers. A writer from Field and Stream, among 16 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: other things, and in my mind, one of the better 17 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: writers working today, especially in conservation. So we talk a 18 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: lot about that. We talked about his history in Montana 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: and elsewhere, his philosophies on life, the Constitution, the Second Amendment, 20 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: and everything in between. It's a great conversation. And with that, 21 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: let's get started. I guess I grew up on and 22 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: all the road A pared'll do the meadal. I always 23 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: did what I told until I found out that my 24 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: brand new closed the games that can hand from the 25 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: rich kids next door. And I grew up. Bath. I 26 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: guess I grew up. I mean, there are a thousand 27 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: things inside of my head I wish I ain't seen, 28 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: and now I just wanted to a real bad dream 29 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: or being, and like I'm coming apart of the scenes. 30 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: But thank you Jack Daniel seven. Okay, everybody, welcome. It's 31 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: the Hunting collect If it's another week, it's four sixteen nineteen. 32 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: I'm here in Bosman, Montana. Some people say Bozeman, I 33 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: don't say bows Man's just on the man, on the man. 34 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: It's good, a little rainy as a little jury outside today, 35 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: but um here and I'm joined by meat Eaters Director 36 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 1: of Fishing Miles Nalte. Hello, Hello to everybody. I hope 37 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: it's warmer wherever you are. I hope it is lovely 38 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: and gorgeous and just like it was in Texas when 39 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: we were there. So we're gonna talk about a lot 40 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: of things. But we have today's guest on the show 41 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: is Hal Herring, and you're very familiar with how. How's 42 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: how is a very good human being. I have a 43 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: lot of respect for that man both both is just 44 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,839 Speaker 1: a person and from a craft perspective. As a writer. Yes, 45 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: we're talking about he thinks very highly of your writing 46 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: abilities and your time Gray Sporting Journal in other places. Um, 47 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: and you think very highly of his as as do I. 48 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: As we talked about in the podcast, UM, some of 49 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: his pieces, UM stand that will stand the test of 50 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: time and are he said, I I believe a timeless writer. 51 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: I completely agree, And I mean we're we're sort of 52 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: in our own little inflo world here where we really 53 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: pat each other on the back hard, you know, to 54 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: the point of where you might have actually injured yourself 55 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: with all the back padding. Yeah, I have injured back 56 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: right now, but it might be because me and How 57 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: are like in this podcast you'll hear later on. I 58 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 1: had to stop at one point and say, how we're 59 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: agreeing too much. Let me here's what I'm gonna do. 60 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna play the Devil's advocate for a minute, just 61 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: so the listener understands that we're not doing this on purpose, 62 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: we're just enjoying each other's company. But in spite of 63 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: the fact that this is a close knit community, I actually, 64 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: on a on a legitimate level, I think that guy 65 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: knows he does his work, he does his homework, he 66 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: does his research, and he crafts his his prose in 67 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: such a way that it's it's really hard to find 68 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: fault in anything he does. And you have on your 69 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: list on the old CV there it says professor Yeah, 70 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: professor of writing. Yeah, yeah, coming correct. Um, tell us 71 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: about you know, when you teach folks about writing, or 72 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: when you know, extol the written word to students or 73 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: whomever you're talking to, Like, what's your major philosophy? Like, 74 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: what's the one thing that people need to know about writing? 75 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: I mean that's I know, there's still that down right. 76 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: I would say the number one thing is make sure 77 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: you have something worth saying. I mean that when we 78 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: talk about writing as a craft, you can be as 79 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: perfect as you want in terms of your construction. You 80 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 1: can be have all of your grammar lockdown tight, you 81 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: have a perfect working knowledge of the semicolon. But if 82 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: you don't have something interesting to say, you're going to 83 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,239 Speaker 1: fail before you even start. You need you need a point, 84 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: you need a topic, You need something worthy of people's attention, 85 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: and you need an audience. If you get those things, 86 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: you can then begin working on actually crafting sentences. Yeah. 87 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: You you told me a story not long ago about 88 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: a professor or someone in your life who had kind 89 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: of pushed you, like you're doing a really good job. 90 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: You're You're don't get too far ahead of yourself. It 91 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: seems like you don't have anything to say. It's like 92 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: you don't have a whole lot to say. I had 93 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: a very similar experience with a college professor who was 94 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: always pushing me, like, you know, you might be able 95 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: to report the news, but like your perspective on it 96 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: is wait, like it needs some work, need some time, 97 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 1: needs to marinate. Uh, And it's writing. It's like a 98 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: young bottle of bourbon. It's a little and you can 99 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: smell it from across the room. Yeah. I think that's 100 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: one thing that I've learned. And I've had a lot 101 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: of folks right in um to this podcast knowing my 102 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: background and asked that how do I get start in 103 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: the industry? How do I get starting with the crafts 104 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: of writing, and I think that's a great place to start. Yeah, 105 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: I have. I taught at Montana State for seven years. 106 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: I'm I'm fortunate if I get to do guest lectures 107 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: still in a lot of spots because I missed the 108 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: teaching part um. And it's very difficult to distill the 109 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: craft of writing down into some bullet points. And I 110 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: wouldn't begin to try and do that here, but I 111 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: will say that you have to find and you have 112 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: to find a group of people who want to hear 113 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: what you have to say, and you have to find 114 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: a space that hasn't already been covered. That's there you 115 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: can start to develop all the rest of it. But 116 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: without those openings you got, you had nothing. Yeah, and 117 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: that's what holl And I did talk about this in 118 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: the interview. But the modern digital landscapes is kind of 119 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: a double edged sword. You know, on one side, you 120 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: can cultivate an audience and cultivate your craft in a 121 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: way that it wasn't available when you were coming out, 122 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: or even when I was coming up. You had to 123 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: find a print outlet, You had to find somewhere that 124 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: was some editor that liked your work, was willing to 125 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: publish it. Now you can go out and put your 126 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: words on the internet with a little to know. I 127 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: mean literally just have to sign up for a thing, 128 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: put your words and the images they go with them 129 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: on the internet, and if people like them, you can 130 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: gather an audience. The other side of the coin is 131 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: there's so many voices and there's so much uh what 132 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: always say, fake news out there that that it's hard 133 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: to to understand where you fit in. It's hard to 134 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: understand how to fit in, or how to gather that audience, 135 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: or what direction to go. So I I feel like 136 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: it is an open playing field at this point, but 137 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: that open playing field certainly makes it hard. It leaves 138 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people wandering around without direction. Yeah. I 139 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: spent a good number of years early on, when I 140 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: was getting into the magazine writing days, bemoaning digital writing 141 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: for very specific reasons, um because I felt like there 142 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: were so many outlets that were just giving words away 143 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: for free that that was devaluing well crafted language. Like 144 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: if you can go on the internet and find all 145 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: the words imaginable, Oh yeah, man, we speak in hieroglyphics. 146 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: Now we've gone all the way back to pictures of 147 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: Smiley faces like you can you can find anything you 148 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: want for free. What's gonna make you pay for very 149 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: well crafted language? I will say I think some to 150 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: there there's an argument to be made, and I have 151 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: certainly made this as well, that there's so much crap 152 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: that's just out there that that does send some people 153 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: scrambling to find I think that's that's the perfect way 154 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: to put that. It's that there's so much shit out there. 155 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: If you if you can find validated and accredited good works, 156 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: it it it almost value. It's almost like a it's 157 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: almost like a yo yo, like you throw it down 158 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: and it's gonna come back eventually, like you're gonna get 159 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 1: You're gonna get that. It's almost it's like urbanization to 160 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: the more people live in urban area, the more people 161 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: yearn to go outside same kind of concept. You know, 162 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: more people are reading fake news and bullshit and things 163 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: that that you know that aren't really the craft, right, 164 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: you know, just words strung together, the more they're gonna 165 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: yearn for the craft and yearn for a writer with 166 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: the ability to move them in a way that that's 167 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: not happening in the digital space. Yeah, on my good days, 168 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: I believe that Yeah, on my less cynical days, I 169 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: believe that, well, we meet all the time, and we 170 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: have good and bad days with that stuff exactly. I 171 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: will say also again coming from the university perspective and 172 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: and being in those English department meetings that I set 173 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: in on where it was you know, literally like elbow 174 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: patches and tweed and and old men like shaking their fists, 175 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: being like the kids today don't read. And I was 176 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: like the youngest person in most of those rooms, and 177 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: I would kind of stick my hand and be like, well, 178 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: actually they're reading more now than anyone's ever read anytime, 179 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: Like you just don't like what they're reading. So it's 180 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: more nuanced, is more complicated than just like the kids 181 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: don't read anyone. It's like you went from a time 182 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: of all like a very controlled output, right, only like 183 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: do you have certain institutions that are that are extolling 184 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: and like talking to people now it's it's a democracy 185 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: of information that's frustrating because folks that are traditionally at 186 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: control have less control now. Right. It's just a different environment, 187 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: an interesting one. And here's a good example of something 188 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: that old old cal Ryan Callahan throwing the bucket and 189 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: this ship is. I can't begin to tell you how 190 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: much this makes me laugh. Um. We've had a few 191 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: of our wonderful listeners, both to the Mediator podcasts to 192 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: this podcast. We've had people right in and asked us 193 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: about They asked about certain things all the time. Things 194 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: in the news they see like oh, you know, a 195 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: giant python was caught, or it doesn't really matter what 196 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: it is. Folks will ask us our opinion or asks 197 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: to a little research on their behalf to tell him 198 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: exactly what's going down. We've we've got one recently with 199 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: a popular topic, which is Bigfoot. Um which lost? Bigfoot lost? 200 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: I believe to Cal's mustache? Who is that? What? What 201 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 1: took big meat eater March madness bracket? Yeah, I'm pretty 202 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: sure Cal's mustache took out. Bigfoot is formidable. It is 203 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: a formidable lip hair. Um. But this one, it's really 204 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: interesting headline. Couple having sex outdoors in Bigfoot costumes gets 205 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: accidentally shot by hunters. I mean, there are so many 206 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: layers to that. It's beautiful in its construction. And then 207 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: the deck here is in in Ohio, couple's attempts to 208 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: spice up their sex life with some kinky roleplay turned 209 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: horribly wrong last night, as they were both shot by 210 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,959 Speaker 1: hunters while having sex in the woods and sasquatch costumes. 211 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I want to I want to talk about 212 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: There's a quote in here from an onlooker. It says 213 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: it looked like a couple of guerrillas mating like crazy. 214 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: They were standing over six foot tall and kept growling 215 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: and moaning. They really look like wild creatures. This is 216 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: uh what they like to call fake news. It's an 217 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: unethical shot either way. Yeah, either way, I'm not I 218 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: don't like if I saw two guerrillas having sex as 219 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: a hunter, I wouldn't be like, you gotta kill both 220 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 1: of those? So you know the But the headline, real 221 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: headline here is that it comes This comes from World 222 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: News Daily Report, World News Daily Report dot com. I 223 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: suggest you'd never go there unless you want to laugh. Ah. 224 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: The World News is um actual little little line here 225 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: is World News Daily Report where the facts don't matter. 226 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: But unfortunately people don't read those taglines. Man. They see 227 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: these headlines and they passed them around. This is a 228 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: very newsy looking they have like a very newsy looking 229 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: photo that has two ambulances as like Monroe Township and 230 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: has a bunch of obviously police vehicles all around, so 231 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: it looks like a news image. It's got a very 232 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: intriguing headline, I will admit, but people are like, you're 233 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: on Facebook, your Instagram wherever, and you're scrolling down you 234 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: see this, You're like, a ha, hilarious, and then you 235 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: keep on scrolling and then next thing you know, you're 236 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: writing an email into somebody saying, man, did you see this? 237 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: You did you hear about this? This is complete? This 238 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: is I mean, it's like past the onion, you know, 239 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: this is this is It's pretty funny. I don't have 240 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: to give it that, but this is funny. But it's 241 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: indicative of a problem that we run into, particularly as journalists, 242 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: on a regular basis. Like, yeah, on some level, it 243 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: would be nice that I could just if I could 244 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: construct the most ridiculous headline imaginable and then build out 245 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 1: a story from there. Facts be damned. Yeah, I could 246 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: get a lot of clicks that way. Yeah, you know 247 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that. I mean, you can 248 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: click around the same website and Japanese whaling crew eaten 249 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: by killer whales sixteen dead. So I mean I guess. 250 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: I guess the over arking point here is fake news 251 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: is something that we hear about. I'm gonna keep going 252 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: these headlines. I'm gonna make my point and then and 253 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: then you should because I have a lot of good ones. 254 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: But that that we don't necessarily think about it as 255 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: infiltrating the outdoor media space. But it's here, like it 256 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: is here, folks. It's just it's in the ether, like 257 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: it's floating around, and it's taking advantage of our worst impulses, 258 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: is what it is doing. Because that's a very interesting 259 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: thing to repeat. But it takes more time to investigate 260 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: whether it's true and to to verify your sources and 261 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: to understand where this is coming from. It takes less 262 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: time to just look at the thing, laugh at it 263 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: and repeat at your buddies. Absolutely, and so I think this, this, 264 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: this kind of content is just taking advantage of of 265 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: I guess readers, is what you'd say, or non readers, 266 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: however you would put it. But it is very much 267 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: taken advantage of our impulses, um in in the way 268 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: that we communicate with it, out of share information. Absolutely, 269 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: it's it's it's preying upon our bassest levels of intellect. 270 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: Of course, I want to part of me wants to 271 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: believe in couple definitely getting shot while boning. I don't 272 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: want to believe they got shot. Don't want to believe 273 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: maybe got shot in the leg or I'm not hoping 274 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: anyone's dead. But I would like to just say that 275 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: the fact that two people were out there getting it on, 276 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: getting it real, deep and real. Harry, I'm thinking to me, 277 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: that seems uncomfortable. It seems as though you would be 278 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: just sweaty and uncomfortable. I mean, we're getting into the 279 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: whole furry thing, and I don't know if we want 280 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: to go down that we do. Uh shaft, Uh that 281 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: I like that. Uh. Here's another one. Man kicked out 282 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: of All you Can Eat buffet for eating more than 283 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: fifty pounds of food sues for two million dollars. Let 284 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: me just let me just one I could believe. Let 285 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: me just round this one out. Another one that you 286 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: might be able to believe, Yoko oh No, I had 287 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: an affair with Hillary Clinton in the seventies. Uh. Here's 288 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: another one. Australia six pound woman gives birth to forty 289 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: pound baby. That's a ratio we can all get behind Uh, 290 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: so he's thinking about the logistics of that. I'm trying 291 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: not to. I'm gonna stop trying not to. That just 292 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: goes to show you that it is important for us 293 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: all to think critically. This is a funny way to 294 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: to highlight it, but it still is important for us 295 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: all the things critically about everything we read, and especially 296 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: things you read um from trusted sources, like you have 297 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: to think critically. You have to comment everything with a 298 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: pragmatic lens. And even though something it seems silacious and 299 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: it wants to be shared, like just read it first here. 300 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: You read it, you you feel like it's hilarious, it's 301 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: not real, share it anyway, but just just know. I mean, 302 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: I don't know how many people we had right in 303 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: about this, but it was enough that Ryan Callahan felt 304 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: the need to let us know that before we hit 305 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: record here, and he brought it up in our editorial 306 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: this morning. He brought it up, So I feel like 307 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: that makes it relevant. But this is this is a 308 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: humorous avenue into talking about something that that everyone is 309 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: already talking about. We're not breaking the news cycle on 310 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: AKE News right now, but I think that so to 311 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: to take this back to my teaching days. Yes, I 312 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: hoped that people got better sentence construction, but from a 313 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: teaching writing perspective, what was more important to me was 314 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: students understanding how to think about information and knowledge and 315 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: interrogate sources and understand that everyone, no matter what they're 316 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: trying to do, has a perspective that they want you 317 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: to believe by the time you get to the end 318 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: of their piece of writing. That doesn't make them bad, 319 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: that doesn't make them evil, That doesn't mean that every 320 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: journalist has a terrible motive that is trying to undermine democracy. 321 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: But it means that you have to understand there is 322 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: no such thing as pure objectivity in anyone's writing. It 323 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: doesn't exist. Now, Every experience in your life informs what 324 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: you're able to do and how you're able to you know, 325 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: and we we're adding things all the time. You and 326 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: I added thinks as a career, and it's it's you 327 00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: find that organization of thought is maybe not the most important, 328 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: but one of the most important things that a writer 329 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: can do is being able to organize your thoughts in 330 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: such a way that delivers um, not just you know, 331 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: not just the grammar, not just correct punctuation, but organizing 332 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: your thoughts in a compelling way to make sure that 333 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: you're getting your points across uh in a way that 334 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: makes sense for both the writer and the reader. But 335 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: also looking at the way that someone chooses to organize 336 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: their points, even if they're just quotes from other sources, 337 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: will show you the story that they're trying to tell, 338 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: and and the way that they want to lead you 339 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: through that series of ideas is indicative of ultimately the 340 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: conclusion they're hoping that you will draw. Um, here's the 341 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: here's a transition speaking of that there was an attack. 342 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: There's a cougar attack. Oh, we can do but I can. 343 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: I can do a better one than next. Give it 344 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: to me. We'll back it up. If you were to 345 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: take a look for an example, there's a piece up 346 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: on the media to website right now, Oh is there 347 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: Mom saves son from cougar attack and backyard where in 348 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: one of our I would say, exceptional writers does not 349 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: insert himself into this piece of writing in any way, 350 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: shape or form, but does organize the series of events 351 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: and quotes in such a way as to deliver what 352 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: I think of as a totally valid and important message 353 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: towards the end. But again this is my perspective. Tell us, 354 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about this event, because every 355 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: time we do like to talk about attacks here. But 356 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: this one is particularly interesting because it goes to a 357 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: larger point. Um. But but before we get into that, 358 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: let's get into what exactly happened here. Well, there was 359 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: a seven year old boys, Zack Bromley, and he was 360 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: playing in his backyard about I think this is about 361 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: ten days ago now, um. And as he was playing 362 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: in the backyard and his mom were on Vancouver Islands, gorgeous, 363 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: I have wonderful place, lovely. Um. His mom's inside. He's 364 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: playing in the backyard as he should be. Uh, Mother, 365 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: here's a emotion. Looks outside, sees a small cougar trying 366 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: to cut get through their fence and get at the 367 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 1: seven year old boy. After a little bit of work, 368 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 1: the male lion, young male lion does get through the fence, 369 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: chases down the kid and and tackles him, starts chewing 370 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: on his arm. Mom gets there. Mom physically inserts herself 371 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: into this and grabs the lion by the mouth. That's 372 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: what my understanding is. Lion doesn't let go. She screams 373 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: out for help, from both the heavens and the lands 374 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 1: and crying out to the Lord, it says, And then 375 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: the lion is startled by that sound. Let's go runs off. 376 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: The boy is injured but fine. Yeah, And the boy's father, Kevin, said, 377 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: if it had been a bigger cougar, it would have 378 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: been over. He's figured out that was a pretty close 379 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: to near death talking about his his son. He's old 380 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: enough to grasp that. And that's a big pill of swallow. 381 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: Just to digest that mentally, that's pretty crazy for a 382 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: seven year old to recognize, to have the experience of 383 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: being prey, that that that'll that'll shift your perspective. And 384 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: there was Yeah, these are two young male lines. They 385 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: were both hunted down and killed by wildlife officials and 386 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: they were in they were in very poor condition, but 387 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: they were not doing well. They were coming out of 388 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: a very lean winter and they were starving. It's pretty scary, 389 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,479 Speaker 1: but I think again, we often get to this. This 390 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: goes again to what we we're kind of talking about 391 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: here thematically as we sit here in editorial meetings. We're 392 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: always talking about if somebody, somebody is attacked by an animal. 393 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: We know if we write about that or cover that 394 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: it's going to get read. We know that more people 395 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: are going to read it. It's way more compelling. We 396 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: can spend forever taking down why exactly it is, but 397 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: that's not the point here. The point is for us 398 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: as we cover these things to try to um to 399 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: pull out like the the important threads for us all 400 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: going outside. And I thought one of the more important 401 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: threads from this piece is the quote from the mother 402 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: at the very end, and it just says if the 403 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: kids see us parents being apprehensive and being fearful, then 404 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: they can imitate that behavior. So I'm just constantly reassuring 405 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: them that the conservation officers dealt with the cougars and 406 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: talk to them about normal cougar behavior and how this 407 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: is a very odd circumstance. All that saying like they're 408 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: not going to change the way that they let their 409 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: kids go outside, and they don't want their kids to 410 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: change their mentality about going outside based on this attack. 411 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: And as we chose well, as we discussed how we 412 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: were going to cover this editorially, Spencer and I were 413 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: talking about this as as the story kind of came 414 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 1: across the decks and what we have to cover this. 415 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: But there was a very explicit conversation that we had 416 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: to say. Yes, However, we don't want to instill or 417 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: feed into this culture of fear that we have where 418 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: whereby people are terrified of being outdoors, they're afraid of 419 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: the wilderness, they're afraid of wild animals. We as a 420 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: company don't want to lend any credence to that because 421 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: statistically it's not true. It makes for it makes for 422 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: a story that people want to read because it tickles 423 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: that primal part of us that's afraid of being meat. Yeah. Well, 424 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: let me also say it's hunters. We have a lot 425 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: of anti hunters who we feel, I think a lot 426 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: across the board don't have a realistic view of these predators. Right, 427 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: They've they've personified them in many ways and done things 428 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: to make them a whole lot that they aren't. I 429 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: think we're predisposed to write stories like this to prove 430 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,479 Speaker 1: right that. Look at this, like if you if you 431 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: think you your bear is a cuddly bear, where your 432 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: mountain lion is a cuddly mountain lion doll or something 433 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 1: in a book, it's not Look they're killed there at 434 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: their attacking children. That's not really serving the purpose either, right, 435 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: and it's serving to sensationalize these attacks to further our 436 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: own need to be like, hey, listen, everybody, these are 437 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: they're large predators and they'll they'll prey on us if 438 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: they need to. Yeah, I think I think it's a 439 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: little overwhelmed to say cougars are attacking us. I mean, 440 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: I wouldn't go that far. Do cougars from time to 441 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: time attack people in certain circumstances, You're damn right, they do, um, 442 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: but with less frequency than people attack people. Right, And 443 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: that's if if if we're going to report on every 444 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: single attack, which we kind of do, if it's not 445 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 1: if it's not us here, because yeah, you bastards. If 446 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: we're going to report on every attack, it's then it 447 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: then behooves us to take every attack and make it, 448 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: you know, have make it have some meaning over and 449 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: above just the interaction with the wildlife. Like what really 450 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: does this one mean? And I think this quote to 451 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: me speaks a lot to what to what this means, 452 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: especially because this is a young young boy and his 453 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: parents were in off in the attack, like they were 454 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: a part of it. They saw that they witnessed it 455 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: um as as a father of a young boy. UM, 456 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: as two fathers of two young young boys, I think it. 457 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: It certainly is um enlightening to me to see that 458 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: and something that I want to you know, I really 459 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: think hard as I raised my son UM in the outdoors. 460 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I think about this certainly. I think 461 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: about wanting to raise a kid that loves being outside 462 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: as much as I do and isn't afraid of it. UM. 463 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: I also think this is a great example of what 464 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: we were just talking about, and that we consider ourselves 465 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: to be a news outlet that is rigorous. And yet 466 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: through the way that we shaped this piece of writing, 467 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: you'd see some of our perspectives. One to cover predators 468 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: as what they are, predators, not to anthropomorphize them into cute, 469 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: cuddly friends, but to to also the cold. We close 470 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: that piece with with the mother's statement about not change 471 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: their behavior and not being afraid of the outdoors, and 472 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: not wanting to raise children who are afraid of the outdoors. 473 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: So even while I would call this tight and totally 474 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: ethical journalism, our perspectives are are laid bare here. If 475 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: people want to pay attention, well, we had a big 476 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 1: debate in our editory. I mean today about just that 477 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: you know how to how do you weigh like we 478 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: You and I have confirmation buys? We have it when 479 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: we know we have you know, I think many members 480 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: of our team have it. You know, we all. When 481 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: I say many many, I mean ever we all do 482 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: everybody does it. We're not We're not unique in that way, 483 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: but um trying to endeavor to do better each time, 484 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: and to give a larger perspective for anyone that wants 485 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: to take our content and read it and come back 486 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: every week and continue to say, like, what are they 487 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: talk about this week? What are they highlighting right now? 488 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: We choose to pluck from all these headlines what isn't 489 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: fake news and then spin it to make it relevant 490 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: for the for our ways and the way that we 491 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: see the world. And it's a it's an important thing 492 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: that you and I go get up every morning, put 493 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: our pants on. Hopefully, um no, it's a better day. 494 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: If I don't know, I'd rather have been your freelance writer. 495 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: You barely ever wear pants. Many do that, But in 496 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 1: this gig, we have to come into the office, put 497 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: our pants on, and make really tough decisions about very 498 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: critical issues all the time. And we you know, No, 499 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: this isn't you know, us patting ourselves on the back. 500 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: But and we've we've failed to succeed it and and 501 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: we'll continue that cadence, I'm sure. But um, what we're 502 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: trying to do is serve the audience in a way 503 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: that that benefits the whole, you know. And that's challenging. 504 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: But certainly this is a sensational story, um, but it 505 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: can teach us things. It is it is, It is 506 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: definitely sensational. Uh. And I think that drawing the line there, 507 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: there is fake news, yeah, which you've covered nicely, and 508 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: and then there is explicitly biased news of which there's 509 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: plenty to find out there, which I don't consider to 510 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: be the same thing as fake news. And then there's journalism, 511 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: which like it or not, has biases, but works very 512 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: very hard to stay with in particular guard rails in 513 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: the way that they present events as they happened or 514 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: announces it's each piece as an opinionated piece when necessary, 515 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: which I think we try to do. Yeah, we're very 516 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: much open to that feedback too. You know. I don't 517 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: as we say, like I said, as a sitting here, 518 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: I don't want it to seem like this is a 519 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: much of self congratulatory Um. Now we've chatted, we definitely 520 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: screw up. We screw up, and we beat on each 521 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: other a lot. We debate a lot about what exactly 522 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: we should be talking about. And I think that's vital discourse. 523 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: That discourse is vital, and I it's not that I 524 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: enjoy it. I'd much rather have UM, well, I don't know, 525 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: maybe I do enjoy it. I think at the end 526 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: of the day, I do kind of feed off of it. 527 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: You know enough now to know that I have my 528 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: feed off of it. Just the right amount of conflict, Yeah, 529 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: just the right amount. I bring it back down every 530 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,239 Speaker 1: one somewhile. But you know again, what you'll hear the 531 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: opening portion of my interview with Hout hearing that he 532 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: talked about being a nature obsessied, gun soaked mal content. 533 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: When I read that in one of his pieces, I 534 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: was like, that's me, man, Like, I got a lot 535 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: of guns, I love nature, and I'm kind of malcontented 536 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: and very a lot of ways, and so um, you'll 537 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: get that with how what I I very much feel 538 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: that way mal contented is is a way that I 539 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: kind of approach things. I'll say this, I think how 540 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: is one of the few people I've met in my life. 541 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: A lot of people claim this, but very few people 542 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: can back it up. He's one of the few people 543 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: I've ever met who I really truly believe doesn't care 544 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: what other people think about him. That's a very difficult 545 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: quality to find. I'm not gonna lie. I don't have that. 546 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I let a lot of stuff roll off 547 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: my back. I think I'm pretty good about it, but 548 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: I am not the guy who absolutely does not care. 549 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: And how is he very much is very much. There's 550 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people that act like they don't care. 551 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: The virtue signal that they're they don't give a ship 552 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: and that's that's their virtue. Um, no, there's none, there's 553 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: no signaling. And how it's straightforward, it's to the point. 554 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: And the man cares about conservation, man cares about the 555 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: natural world and his relationship with it, and um there's 556 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: a lot to be respected there, and he doesn't care 557 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: what you think about him. As a result of that, 558 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: and people are asking me you might have asked me, 559 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: at least Sam Longern didn't. And one of the means 560 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: how the how the interview going. I was like man. 561 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know how very well, but I 562 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: feel like he was very open and very honest about 563 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: some very tough issues, and it took me. I was 564 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: taken aback a few times during the interview with it. 565 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: So I think one of the great parts of the 566 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: new format here at the UNT Collective is we can 567 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: together look back at the interview before, you know, we 568 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: can give a little pre pre judge on how the 569 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: interview guests did and just how the conversation was. I 570 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: think this one was, Um, it went a lot deeper 571 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: than I thought it would, a lot deeper. I thought 572 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: I had my notes, you know, I had all prepared 573 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: what I wanted to talk to. How about we we 574 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: went down some some rabbit holes there, hijacked that ship. 575 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. It was too early 576 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: in the morning to have a cocktail. Probably probably would 577 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: have if we could have, and maybe would have made 578 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: a better conversation. You never know, follow up, follow up, 579 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: I think I think part two, how Herring at the 580 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: filling station? All right for now? Part one of how 581 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: Hering We're gonna transport back in time. I think it 582 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,719 Speaker 1: was about ten days ago I sat down in this 583 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: very same room with how Herring, and we talked about 584 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: lots of things, So please enjoy in for a treat. 585 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an all day row haring. 586 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: How's it going, man? It is good. It's going good. 587 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: One of the biggest problems with you and I hanging out, 588 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: I think is that we would have just talked without 589 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: ever hitting record for t We've actually been at it 590 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: for a good pretty good while, at least like an 591 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: hour get here for an hour. We're just now like 592 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,719 Speaker 1: we should hit cord. We've solved a lot of problems. 593 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: We've well guys like you and me, you more than me, 594 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: but could we not? We're problem solvers. Uh, how's your 595 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: drive down to Bozeman? It was awesome? Man, I was 596 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: I wanted. I was telling you I wanted to do 597 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: this because I just got back from South Dakota. We 598 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: were snogy hunting, and uh, I knew that, like April 599 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: is got a lot of cool traveling going on. And 600 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,719 Speaker 1: I had this weather wind to tea because weather has 601 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: been ferocious, you know, and uh I could. I was like, 602 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: I'll grib down there, man, It'll be great, And it was. 603 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: There was like big game all around. Yeah, I did 604 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: a little loop yesterday and good lord, big horn sheep, bison, elk, wolves, bears. 605 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just everything, the full component, full component. 606 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: I was enjoying watching the um the Dearborn River. It 607 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: broke free of ice and it was just starting to smoke, 608 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: you know. And then there were still people ice fishing 609 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: on Canyon Ferry, which was really interesting because it was 610 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: forty six degrees. Are crazy people? Well it looks when 611 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: you see the river pouring into the other end and 612 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: it's all muddy and smoking. Yeah. Good now. Yeah, this 613 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: is my first year in Montana, and I think ice 614 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: fishing is gonna be It's like somehow got my spirit 615 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: because I'm not sitting around drinking type of guy at 616 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: hard I believe. So I think ice fishing is somehow. 617 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: Ice fishing is pretty addictive. I'll promise you don't have 618 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: a boat. But there's this mysterious world under the ice 619 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: that's really cool color. When you drill the whole that's it. 620 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it is. It just freaking took me over. 621 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: There's something about the mystery of that. There's a total mystery. Yeah, 622 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: it's unbelievable. Um well, I mean you get fresh fish 623 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: in the Winter. Yeah yeah, Birch are delicious, wal delicious. 624 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: Some of the best on and on White fit on 625 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 1: on we go. Um yeah, I definitely discovered that. So 626 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: where me and Ronella might start the ice hang as 627 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: a Bozeman club, probably to get in and then you 628 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: just show us all your spots. We don't pay you. 629 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,719 Speaker 1: Friends don't pay. Friends don't pay. I was reading one 630 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: of your articles in which how many of you written 631 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: total in your life? I have no idea. Um, I 632 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: was trying to find out over twenty years. It must 633 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: be in the thousands and I and I definitely, I 634 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: definitely don't. There's a lot of them that are in 635 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: a big ben at my office that I don't have 636 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: any memory of signing up for. You know, ilkre introduction 637 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,919 Speaker 1: in the Smoky I followed that for a long time, 638 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: and I wrote that for a bunch of different people, 639 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: and I just you know, it's just mind didn't keep it. 640 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: When I thought about being a writer as a kid, 641 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: I thought of being like a dude in his robe 642 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: all day, living in a cabin in the mountains. That's 643 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,919 Speaker 1: how I always thought about if I become a successful writer, 644 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have some sort of mannic personality. Trade that 645 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: will that will maintain the hyperactivity. My mother always told 646 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: me that if you were a writer for National Geographic 647 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: is where she always wanted me to go was you 648 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: didn't have to get up early. And when I was 649 00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: a little kid, I hated getting up early. So I 650 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: but uh, and now you know it's not totally untrue. 651 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, I don't get up very earlier. In 652 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,919 Speaker 1: one of your article, one of your articles in High 653 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: Country News, I was reading recently, you said, Um, you 654 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: described yourself as a nature obsessed, gun soaked mal content. 655 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: And when I read that, I thought, that's me. Like 656 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,879 Speaker 1: that that's the best way, Like, that's kind of one 657 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: of the better ways if I could, if I had 658 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 1: the skill that you have, is with the written word 659 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: that I would subscribe describe myself. I love I love guns, 660 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: I love the idea of them. Um and on and 661 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: on we go with that. That's somebody. But I also 662 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 1: love nature. Like those are the two things. For whatever 663 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: reason that I have to find what I But yeah, 664 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: in the modern sense, like bow hunting has become a 665 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: little bit more trendy, but I you know, for some reason, 666 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, since I worked at the n r A 667 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: and things that I've done in my past for some reason, 668 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: it's just carrying a rifle of field something to do. 669 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: So like you you still feel that you're in nature obsessed. Yeah, yeah, more. 670 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: I mean I've I've never not been one, you know. Like, uh, 671 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: I just I have a lot of I have a 672 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: lot of problems in a way of where Um I 673 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: just need to be outside a lot and when I'm not, 674 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: things don't go well for me and I don't understand 675 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,919 Speaker 1: what's going on. And then I'll go on a long 676 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 1: trip somewhere just walking, you know. But uh no, all 677 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 1: guns have been a part of it all my life. 678 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: I mean I I shot recreationally, like from age nine 679 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: or something pretty sometime every day. Um I had a 680 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: brown in b LR twenty two and um I had 681 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,439 Speaker 1: ruge remark two pistol and then we had to cold 682 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: diamondbacks that we had around the house because we lived 683 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: out in the country, and um just was I had 684 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,919 Speaker 1: free reign. I also shot myself in a leg when 685 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: I was in high school, early high school, which it 686 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: was bad. Um and uh yeah with age remark too, 687 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: and um you gotta tell that story now. Well, I 688 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: was shooting. I had been squirrel hunting and I came 689 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,839 Speaker 1: home and I remember I said, I think I said 690 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: that this is funny, but I think I said an egg. 691 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: I went to kitchen and got an egg and I 692 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: put it up on the woodpile and I was banging 693 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: away at that egg, and um, I had a holster 694 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 1: them because I've been fit, I've been hunting, and um, 695 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,800 Speaker 1: all I remember was I put that pistol back in 696 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: that holster. And I'm my finger might have been in 697 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 1: the trigger guard or the thing, the strap that goes 698 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: across the top that holds a pistol, and might have 699 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: might have ridden up in the thing, and it went 700 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: across my knee. The bullet went across my knee and 701 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: it entered right below the knee and rowed my shin 702 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: bone down and stuck in my ankle, and um, it 703 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: was yeah, it was hurt and it and it it 704 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: took a piece I recovered, obviously, but it took a 705 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: piece of muscle out of that thing. So later on 706 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: I broke that ankle um when I was working in 707 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: the woods. And I'm positive that it's but was it 708 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: was less stable? YEA, yeah, I mean, you know it 709 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: there's there's a long term cost. Yeah, we all got something. 710 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: Well eventually, you you know nowadays that folks who don't 711 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: know you, hopefully you do. Hopefully you do if you're listening, 712 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: but don't know you. Um, I think today you best 713 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: known for you're working conservation. I think you were working 714 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: in editorial work around conservation. Yeah, that's where that's kind 715 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: of where I've ended up, not not ended up. That's 716 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: where I started too. And um, you know, my greatest 717 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: passion really is is the nature and my I have 718 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: the quid pro quose sort of thing where I spent 719 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 1: so much time with this, I can actually say, you know, 720 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 1: that could be fixed, you know, like you, I was 721 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: in Alabama and they had built a new subdivision right 722 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 1: in this area. It was it was about to burst 723 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: into tears, and Hurricane Creek was down below there and 724 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: it was flooding, and and they took a dozer on 725 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: a a track, ho and they just drained that subdivision 726 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: into Hurricane Creek. Well, Hurricane Creek is like an incredible 727 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: creek for fishing and swimming, doing all stuff, and and 728 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: here was it was filling with mud, you know, And 729 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: I was thinking to people in that subdivision are never 730 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: gonna know how great that creek was, and they're being 731 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: deprived of this asset. And all you'd have to do 732 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:22,919 Speaker 1: is not drive the track ho through there and drain 733 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: the you know, yeah, like in order to have paradise, 734 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: all you gotta do is not take the tracko down 735 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: there and racket. When I saw it, you know, I 736 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: moved here to Montana for exactly that, right, it's a 737 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,760 Speaker 1: little bit of a little bit of paradise and build 738 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: a house on a you know, half acreed lot with 739 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of other houses around it. And then by 740 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: the time I got moved in, I realized how much 741 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: of the natural earth that had been destroyed. So we 742 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,399 Speaker 1: the footprint so we could live there. Because we're right, 743 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: you know, near the Gallatin River, So there's this is 744 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: like void of natural landscape that runs into one of 745 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 1: the most beautiful rivers riparian corridors that you'll ever find. 746 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: And so I came to be my wife's like what 747 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: I was standing on a porch, like look out across 748 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: it's like a real flat and what what what will 749 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: eventually be planted with grass and they'll be picket fences 750 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: and privacy fences put up, but for now because it's 751 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: all new construction. It is flat and raw, just river 752 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: rock everywhere. And I just I didn't think I would 753 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: be as depressed by that scene as I as I 754 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: as I am. You can nail it down with like 755 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 1: some natives and stuff like that, and you can, you can, 756 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 1: we can all, we can all. What was it that 757 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: you can all do a little better? Yeah, that could 758 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 1: be the that'll be the title of my autobiography. Um, 759 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: but conservation is is an entangled mess. It always has been. 760 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: It's not it's not a modern change. That's not something 761 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: that we've affected in the modern since it's always been 762 00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: from Teddy Roosevelt and railroad barrens and and the Tycoons. 763 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: At that time, there was always this back and forth. 764 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: Ready Newburgh says my my, He gave me this was it. 765 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: Conservation is not convenient. It's not convenient. Yeah, as soon 766 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:14,839 Speaker 1: as you try to simplify it and boil it down 767 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: to a certain amount of principles, it will surprise you. 768 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: Flip you on your head. What do you think you know? 769 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: Just in general, what's the biggest conservation challenge today? Um? 770 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 1: For sure, Well, I mean everybody would tell Wood what 771 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: wants me to say climate change? You know, Um, that's 772 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: not my thing. It's not that I don't believe in it. 773 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: It's not that I'm a c cimate denihilist. You can't 774 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 1: even say climate change nowadays. People just start jumping off 775 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: bridges the right and they also go, you must be 776 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: a statist or a commonist today. But um, so everybody 777 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: wants to say that, But I'm not gonna say that. 778 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: The greatest challenge macro is American agriculture and the loss 779 00:41:55,120 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: of CRP and buffers and wetland reserves and the subsequent flooding, 780 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 1: water pollution, dead zone, the cascade of negative effects of 781 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,359 Speaker 1: of being at war with the Earth when you don't 782 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: need to be. Um, that's my main one. And I'm 783 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and say that. That also works for Florida, 784 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: which is the Everglades. That's the second one. Yeah, that's 785 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:21,280 Speaker 1: the second one. But it's also immersed in in the agriculture. Um. 786 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: But those two things being so connected as they are, 787 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: really to me is that the city like is the 788 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: single biggest event because you can see, you know, what's 789 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: happening in the every glades. You can see what's what 790 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,919 Speaker 1: the effect of what's happening in the Midwest is they're 791 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: they're they're intimately related. Um and uh and da that's fixed. 792 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: It's it's so fixable. Yeah, I mean this one is 793 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: like it is so fixable. Um. We're working on some 794 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: some coverage here. But every time, you know, since I've 795 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,239 Speaker 1: been a mediator and we've been trying to think about 796 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: how we tackle Ryan Callahan and I have been trying 797 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: to think about how we tackle conservation, it always comes 798 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: up at the every it's always comes up because it 799 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: sounds like a keystone event in the way that we 800 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 1: see it was agriculture and big agg and like what 801 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: and big sugar in this case, right, and it and 802 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: it's it's deep. Um. I don't want to get I 803 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: don't want to be offensive, but it's deep corruption in 804 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:20,399 Speaker 1: the same way that we we associate with, um like 805 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 1: another a third world country, you know, um there, it 806 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 1: should not be in the United States of America. That 807 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 1: one shouldn't have gone this far. Um. We should have 808 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,359 Speaker 1: had we should have seen that coming. Get fixed. It. 809 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,800 Speaker 1: Give folks a quick rundown of what's happening in Glades. Boys, 810 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,800 Speaker 1: it's hard to go. I'll give it to you. So, 811 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: so the in nineteen twenty or a little earlier, we 812 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: we damned up Lake okee Chobe to drain the northern 813 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,399 Speaker 1: half of the Everglades to bring it into agricultural production. Um, 814 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: that was the norm of the day, that there was 815 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 1: no there's no evil. You know Mr Diston who invented 816 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 1: the big du edges and stuff like that, right, he 817 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,720 Speaker 1: was the mastermind, but he was a visionary of his time. 818 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,839 Speaker 1: It just simply wasn't It wasn't a good idea long term. 819 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,479 Speaker 1: But they downed up Lake Okeechobee and so they could 820 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: produce sugar and winter vegetables south of the lake on 821 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 1: the musk, on the custard muck they called it. There 822 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: was a custard apple forest there. They took all that out. 823 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,399 Speaker 1: It didn't they didn't like it. And uh so, over 824 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,680 Speaker 1: the course of years since then, the Cassimi River was 825 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: then completely straightened and and turned into a ditch. And 826 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: then we got Orlando Disney World. Um, one of the 827 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,399 Speaker 1: largest cattle producing states in the in the world, and 828 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 1: everything drained into Cassemi, which then went to La Cocachobe. 829 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: So Lake Okeechobe became more and more toxic, more and 830 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: more polluted, and they still couldn't turn it loose because 831 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 1: now we have twenty thousand acres of sugarcane down below it. 832 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: And so they vented Lake Okeechobee out the Kaloosa Hatchie 833 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,240 Speaker 1: River to the Gulf and down to the St. Lucy 834 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: Um and the Indian River Lagoon on the other side. 835 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: So all of this toxic water fresh water is slamming 836 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,919 Speaker 1: into both saltwater eco systems and producing these green blue green, 837 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: toxic blue green algae and fish kills, and then the 838 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: red it's it's helped to spawn the red tide. And 839 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: at the same time we by jamming up Lake Okeechobee, 840 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,319 Speaker 1: the Biscayne Aquifer south of the park is going dry. 841 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,080 Speaker 1: It supplies six million people, it supplies Miami, and it's 842 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,759 Speaker 1: driving up it. It's drying up the Everglades. And then 843 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: when they try to pulse water into the Everglades, they 844 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,879 Speaker 1: it's too polluted, so it grows cattails, which clogs out 845 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: the native vegetation there. So um and Florida salinity levels 846 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 1: in Florida Bay yet further south because they don't have 847 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 1: the recharge of the water that used to come down 848 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: from okee job. The salinity levels are killing all the 849 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: sea grass and so it is eroding and and basically 850 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: killing itself. So it's a it's a cascade of really, 851 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: it's a it's incredible story, one of the best. If 852 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: I live closer to Florida, it would be mine. Well, 853 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 1: and Andrew McKeen. It was just down there, and we're 854 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: going to send folks down there, and so I think 855 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,799 Speaker 1: I think we all understand the effect of it. Like, 856 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: there's some incredible people working on this, some of my 857 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,800 Speaker 1: favorite people I've ever met. I did the field and 858 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: stream series on this and um year before last, and uh, 859 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 1: I've kept in touch because they're just they're just top 860 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 1: notch people. Get your wire, just flip that yep, perfect, 861 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,359 Speaker 1: got it, um, and they know exactly what they're doing. 862 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,320 Speaker 1: This's this the story has been unfolding for twenty five 863 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: and more years. Yeah, and it's it's like I said that, 864 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,759 Speaker 1: the story is it's so interconnected with fishing guides and 865 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:54,800 Speaker 1: landowners and big money, major economy, major real estate. It's huge. 866 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: It's huge, and I think that at some at some level, 867 00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 1: for for the American populace to care about these stories, 868 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: that the narratives have to be interesting, and this one 869 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:10,280 Speaker 1: has um and it and it and it definitely affected 870 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:15,640 Speaker 1: the governor's race. Um uh, boys, there it's there's some real, 871 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 1: very interesting uh history in their recent history. Let's just 872 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,760 Speaker 1: put it that way. Well, keep looking, keep looking around 873 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,000 Speaker 1: to do the same. Um. I was reading an article 874 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,480 Speaker 1: that you recently wrote for Field and Streams Online about 875 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: rewriting conservation in twenty first century, and you interviewed a 876 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: guy named Chris Mattson. He's a big time um upland hunter, writer, conservationist, 877 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,279 Speaker 1: and he you quoted him in there, and he said this. 878 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 1: He said, on the biggest conservation issues clean water, climate change, 879 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 1: public lands, the big challenges we're losing ground were becoming 880 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: satisfied when we lose less, and that is not going 881 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,280 Speaker 1: to work if we want hunting and fishing on wildlife 882 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,200 Speaker 1: to be around for the next one years. And I 883 00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,319 Speaker 1: found when I read that, I thought that is one 884 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,279 Speaker 1: of the better encapsulations of exactly what we're talking about conservation. Yeah. 885 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,000 Speaker 1: And Chris, um, I mean, he's he's I don't know 886 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: how old he has, sixties, but he has literally done 887 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 1: this his whole life as editor a woman wildlife and 888 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,839 Speaker 1: nitor of Kansas Wildlife. Um, I mean he has been 889 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 1: in charge of collecting the major conservation stories of the 890 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:24,280 Speaker 1: day for as almost as long as we've been alive, 891 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,960 Speaker 1: you know. Love Yeah, yeah, and he I mean he 892 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: has immersed in it. Yeah. Did you feel like that 893 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,400 Speaker 1: concept of of for us? You know, because you do 894 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,080 Speaker 1: a lot of d H as I do that that 895 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:42,800 Speaker 1: especially with public lands. If we're we're saying no now 896 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 1: where we didn't before. Um, we know to what I 897 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: was saying no to land transfer, No, not gonna take 898 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,719 Speaker 1: a little bit, you're taking none. If anything, you're gonna 899 00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,480 Speaker 1: provide more access. Um. That's always you know, at least 900 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 1: in my life, to have been the case with guns, 901 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 1: with the modern um rise of the n r A 902 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,920 Speaker 1: and like that. What other parts of conservation do you 903 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:09,640 Speaker 1: feel like we're hedging on right now? I mean I 904 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:11,120 Speaker 1: think you brought up a big one in the farm 905 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 1: bill and and CRP. Do you see that maybe as 906 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,680 Speaker 1: the other one that we need to start being putting 907 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,439 Speaker 1: our foot down saying we need to fix this. Yeah, 908 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,399 Speaker 1: it's we need to shift a paradigm there where we're 909 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: we're taking less and what we're gonna do with that 910 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 1: is the economics are are on the side of um 911 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,839 Speaker 1: ecological vision because you've got the floods and fargo. You've 912 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,520 Speaker 1: got the floods and in down. I mean, it's it's 913 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,120 Speaker 1: front and center on the news right now, right Well, 914 00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,399 Speaker 1: they're not. It's not flooding because this is some kind 915 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,080 Speaker 1: of the rainiest year in history. It's flooding because we 916 00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,320 Speaker 1: filled in all the wetlines. That the Moines water system 917 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,200 Speaker 1: is not polluted to the point where nobody can drink 918 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,480 Speaker 1: it because suddenly there was this gaut of pollution that 919 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,680 Speaker 1: came from outer space. It's it's polluted because we channelized 920 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,680 Speaker 1: the weeks and we've drained and tiled the wetlands, and 921 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:06,840 Speaker 1: we shot the fertilizer into the river. I mean, it's 922 00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:12,280 Speaker 1: not something that we can't address. Well, sorry, we're paying already. 923 00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,319 Speaker 1: We're paying through the nose in federal flood insurance and 924 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,239 Speaker 1: in water treatment and all these other complete losses of 925 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,400 Speaker 1: all the fisheries, everything going down. You're paying already. So 926 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 1: take that money that we're already losing and give some 927 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: incentives to landowners. Take away the incentives direct stuff and 928 00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,560 Speaker 1: give them incentives. We've done it naturally, did in OURCS 929 00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,920 Speaker 1: did it for years, like agriculture is funded by a 930 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,759 Speaker 1: government subsidence, like government subsidies run the show they do. 931 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,799 Speaker 1: And and we've lost the quid pro quo in that 932 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,600 Speaker 1: and and it's not completely lost, it's still there. We 933 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,239 Speaker 1: just de emphasized it, and all of a sudden, now 934 00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:56,200 Speaker 1: we see the cascade of negative effects. Let's just re 935 00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:01,400 Speaker 1: emphasize it. It It will be fine. Yeah, I promise. I 936 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,920 Speaker 1: appreciate that you have, Like, it's not that not that hard. 937 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,839 Speaker 1: And the people who are doing it are not some 938 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,880 Speaker 1: kind of there in Florida. There's some real bad actors 939 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,600 Speaker 1: in the Midwest, United States. I don't think. I bet 940 00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,520 Speaker 1: you you you'd have to look to find a bad actor. 941 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,239 Speaker 1: These are people who are simply responding to economic incentives 942 00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,400 Speaker 1: and economic challenges there. They don't want to wreck the 943 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,040 Speaker 1: Des Moines River. I promise, ain't no different than you 944 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,080 Speaker 1: and I. Their daughter wants to go to college and 945 00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,719 Speaker 1: the bushels per acres. What sins are there or in 946 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:39,400 Speaker 1: our CS money? You know, it's not you, really, I'm promised. 947 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,520 Speaker 1: I've talked to these folks. They're not out there to 948 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:46,600 Speaker 1: mess up anything. They are responding to just like me 949 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:48,800 Speaker 1: and you are here today or go to work tomorrow. 950 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:53,040 Speaker 1: They are responding to economic realities. Yeah, and I like 951 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,839 Speaker 1: you said, if you can make if you can, want 952 00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,560 Speaker 1: to educate them on what's going on again, the cascading 953 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,840 Speaker 1: effects of all these these ups that have changes or 954 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,120 Speaker 1: make it to this land, have you can educate them 955 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,160 Speaker 1: on that and form on that, but then also make 956 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,759 Speaker 1: it economically viable for them to take part in the solution. Well, 957 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,560 Speaker 1: I would say a large majority of them are. They 958 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:17,480 Speaker 1: already know exactly how it works, no problem. And however 959 00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 1: they can't afford on their own to give up those 960 00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,960 Speaker 1: bushels um because the other thing is the commodities are 961 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:29,439 Speaker 1: are yo yo and around, putting people out of business, 962 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:34,040 Speaker 1: and huge agricultural entities are taken over from guys like 963 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,720 Speaker 1: me and you who have like say, two thousand acres 964 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,839 Speaker 1: and who are totally reachable. And now you've got these 965 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:45,480 Speaker 1: giant entities who have no incentive whatsoever to enroll anything 966 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,520 Speaker 1: in a wet lands res are program. They write their 967 00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,520 Speaker 1: own insurance. Basically, oh yeah, in the waterfowl world, we know, 968 00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 1: we kind of we know what the Prairie Potole region is. 969 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,120 Speaker 1: We know what the value of what lands are? Um, 970 00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,640 Speaker 1: I'm not And I know even if you look at 971 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:01,880 Speaker 1: the farm bill and you look at a lot of 972 00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,640 Speaker 1: stuff it's in there that doesn't translate to to agriculture. Right, 973 00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:09,680 Speaker 1: those two things are somehow up against each other. Um, 974 00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,040 Speaker 1: that goes into buffer zones? Do you think you know 975 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,279 Speaker 1: this is I didn't want to get so deep on this, 976 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,920 Speaker 1: but might as well. Um do you what do you 977 00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,759 Speaker 1: feel like is politically on this issue? Because because a 978 00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,279 Speaker 1: lot of times when these things come up, you know, 979 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:24,759 Speaker 1: you and I are gonna agree on a lot of 980 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,680 Speaker 1: this ship. Um, what do you think of what's the 981 00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:29,799 Speaker 1: other side of it? Like? There? You know, how would 982 00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,600 Speaker 1: you articulate both sides of this issue? When it comes 983 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 1: to big egg in conservation? One side, like you said, 984 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,879 Speaker 1: there's there's an awful lot of subsidy money flowing out 985 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,560 Speaker 1: without a lot of quid pro quote you know. And 986 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,520 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna buy into this book bs about we're 987 00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,880 Speaker 1: feeding the world, so the ducks have got to go 988 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,600 Speaker 1: right because maybe you may be feeding the world, but 989 00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,840 Speaker 1: you're folso flooding far ago and poison into the Moines 990 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:59,600 Speaker 1: world water system. That's not gonna be Okay, So what 991 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:03,239 Speaker 1: is it? What I think I saw under this particular 992 00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,520 Speaker 1: administration we're under right now is simply that if it 993 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:11,200 Speaker 1: contributes to economic churn, if there's like you can fill 994 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,480 Speaker 1: in a wet land and plant more bushels there and 995 00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:16,279 Speaker 1: those bushels are worse X, that's what we're gonna do. 996 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:21,360 Speaker 1: If we're gonna um at whatever creates a larger money 997 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,360 Speaker 1: and without any regard to consequence, that's what we're doing. 998 00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,640 Speaker 1: And so connected to that's connected to the voter that 999 00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,840 Speaker 1: will paunch the ticket for for Donald Trump or you know, 1000 00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,479 Speaker 1: really any other and it's it's I think it shows 1001 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,200 Speaker 1: itself a little bit in coal. You know what like 1002 00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,080 Speaker 1: coal is not. You're not campaigning on coal to save coal. 1003 00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,520 Speaker 1: You're campaigning on coal because it signifies the problem for 1004 00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,600 Speaker 1: the American worker or the like that. It's sim it's 1005 00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:51,360 Speaker 1: him symbolic. It's a symbolic gesture to like, we understand 1006 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,480 Speaker 1: the plight of the person who just wants to make 1007 00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:57,440 Speaker 1: a living right, and then that's what that's who we 1008 00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,440 Speaker 1: are identifying with at this point. So I think that 1009 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,560 Speaker 1: goes a lot to the point you're making about that 1010 00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,239 Speaker 1: side of this when it comes to agriculture. People are 1011 00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,359 Speaker 1: just trying to make a living there there. There's there's 1012 00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,960 Speaker 1: not that many bad actors. Um, It's it's just simply 1013 00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,000 Speaker 1: economic the way we have it's set up right now, 1014 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,319 Speaker 1: do you have no incentives to do the right thing? 1015 00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,080 Speaker 1: You have less incentives do the right thing, and you've 1016 00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:23,160 Speaker 1: got more immediate pockets incentives to do the wrong thing. Yeah, 1017 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,000 Speaker 1: so you have that if you set that up as 1018 00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,160 Speaker 1: the right the Republican side like that base, what's the 1019 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,560 Speaker 1: what's the left leaning? Like, let's just cover both poles here. 1020 00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,200 Speaker 1: The problem with the left is that they believe that 1021 00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,960 Speaker 1: the state or the federal government or or government in 1022 00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,279 Speaker 1: general has the answer to everything. And and it's not 1023 00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,600 Speaker 1: that they're totally wrong that okay, But you can't rely 1024 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,440 Speaker 1: on the federal government because you could get George Bush 1025 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:54,239 Speaker 1: and there who actively undermines conservation and you've given them 1026 00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,600 Speaker 1: all this power. You put all your eggs in that basket. 1027 00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,520 Speaker 1: So and then you go down to the state level, 1028 00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,279 Speaker 1: like where I was in Alabama and they have had 1029 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:06,040 Speaker 1: this tremendous scandal with the e p A all the 1030 00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,200 Speaker 1: way down to state d Q. It's just like you 1031 00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:13,000 Speaker 1: don't want your eggs in that basket. Right, So we're 1032 00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,280 Speaker 1: we're kind of we've we've got to get over concervate. 1033 00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,080 Speaker 1: It is to cliched, but get over conservation. It's a 1034 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,560 Speaker 1: partisan issue. Nobody wants six feet of muddy water in 1035 00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:27,480 Speaker 1: their living room. Nobody wants to their kids to drink nitrates, right, 1036 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:31,240 Speaker 1: so what do we do? It's not it's in and someday, 1037 00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:35,279 Speaker 1: my my, I am not a Republican or a Democrat, um, 1038 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:40,160 Speaker 1: but I'm certainly not a leftist. But someday the Democrats 1039 00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:45,400 Speaker 1: own conservation by default. And I don't know when I 1040 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,160 Speaker 1: think there's too much money flowing to the Republicans for 1041 00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,200 Speaker 1: from the fossil fuels and stuff like that. They need 1042 00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:55,680 Speaker 1: to liberate themselves from that and give us a relatively conservative, 1043 00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: moderate party who doesn't believe that the state has the 1044 00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,399 Speaker 1: answer to everything, that also believes in not putting six 1045 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,680 Speaker 1: ft of water in my living room. You know this, 1046 00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:10,080 Speaker 1: this goes into something that you were pretty deeply involved in, 1047 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,799 Speaker 1: or at least reported on, which is the Bundy occupation 1048 00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,160 Speaker 1: in Oregon. Um. I was just telling you before he 1049 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,240 Speaker 1: came on, you wrote this piece that I've called on 1050 00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,560 Speaker 1: a couple of times to quote you is he is 1051 00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,400 Speaker 1: probably one of the best pieces of writing I've read 1052 00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,680 Speaker 1: and quite a long time. It's called Can We Make 1053 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,400 Speaker 1: Sense of the Mallard Mess? And that's I was written 1054 00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,120 Speaker 1: in But I mean it's still rings true today, so 1055 00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,680 Speaker 1: many quotes of it ring true today. So take folks 1056 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:40,360 Speaker 1: through kind of what you experienced during the standoff. You 1057 00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,560 Speaker 1: know what you wanted to do going down there, and 1058 00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,960 Speaker 1: we probably should give a quick recap of exactly what 1059 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:47,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about and then go on. But I think 1060 00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,760 Speaker 1: it's very important conversation. Well, what they did, what happened 1061 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,400 Speaker 1: there was um the Bundy family. Of course, people probably 1062 00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,400 Speaker 1: followed the Bunkerville standoff when the BOM tried to get 1063 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,560 Speaker 1: their illegally grazing cow they hadn't paid grazing feesa's ninety 1064 00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:07,280 Speaker 1: three off the Bunkerville allotment in Nevada, and the local, 1065 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,600 Speaker 1: not the local, but the American Militia Movement decided to 1066 00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,320 Speaker 1: make a stand for the Bundy's, against the BLM and 1067 00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:18,040 Speaker 1: against the US government, and they successfully retrieved the cows 1068 00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,360 Speaker 1: and put them back on that range illegally completely everything 1069 00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,959 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, the cows. He's he's increased to herd. 1070 00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:28,560 Speaker 1: The cows are squatting is the word on public land. Yeah, 1071 00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,200 Speaker 1: if anybody in the world would love to have that deal. 1072 00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:33,320 Speaker 1: I mean that you don't pay and you've got three 1073 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,840 Speaker 1: hundred thousand head of cows. So they were successful and 1074 00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,760 Speaker 1: they were emboldened by this. And um am and Bundy 1075 00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:46,040 Speaker 1: the Sun of Clavin. Clavin is the patriarch, his Clovin's 1076 00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:47,920 Speaker 1: had a lot of fun to go watch, and and 1077 00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,400 Speaker 1: Cloven is a probably a really good guy. He and 1078 00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,840 Speaker 1: I whole violently disagree about a lot of things. I'm 1079 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:57,680 Speaker 1: sure he's an interesting person to listen to. And um 1080 00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,960 Speaker 1: so Ammon his son, and I think Rylan was in 1081 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,760 Speaker 1: on it too. Uh. They went up and they were called, 1082 00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:10,480 Speaker 1: i think by demon divine revelation to go and support 1083 00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:14,440 Speaker 1: the Hammonds who had been were doing a mandatory minimum 1084 00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:18,919 Speaker 1: jail term for some arson offenses on bill um land Um. 1085 00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:22,640 Speaker 1: The Hammond thing was something that I I had followed 1086 00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:25,480 Speaker 1: because I didn't agree with the sentence and of the Hammonds, 1087 00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,240 Speaker 1: I knew it was a bad idea. It fell under 1088 00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,840 Speaker 1: this anti terrorism it was supposed to be against Earth 1089 00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:35,439 Speaker 1: Liberation Front or something. They had made this this law 1090 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,760 Speaker 1: of mandatory minimums if you do this bad stuff right, 1091 00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,920 Speaker 1: And the Hammonds ran a foul of a federal mandatory 1092 00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,800 Speaker 1: minimum and had to do time for this arson, which 1093 00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:47,200 Speaker 1: was much in question. DeWitt and Steve Hammond, right White 1094 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,960 Speaker 1: and Steve Hammond, and uh hell, I mean I was 1095 00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,080 Speaker 1: right there. I was on the Bundy side on that 1096 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,040 Speaker 1: right it was. It's it's federal mandatory minimums. As I 1097 00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,680 Speaker 1: wrote it a piece. They're awful state to give us 1098 00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:02,120 Speaker 1: give he said, I am gobs backed by an economy 1099 01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:05,320 Speaker 1: that seems engineered to impoverish anyone who dares try to 1100 01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:07,360 Speaker 1: make their own living, and by government that seems more 1101 01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,360 Speaker 1: and more distant from the people who represents except when 1102 01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,160 Speaker 1: calling up our sons and daughters to attack yat chaotic 1103 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,680 Speaker 1: people's that clearly have nothing to do with me or anybody. 1104 01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,440 Speaker 1: So uh So, the in the in the support of 1105 01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,520 Speaker 1: the Hammonds, the Bundy brothers, I don't know how much 1106 01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,720 Speaker 1: they ever planned it. It was very chaotic, and they 1107 01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,000 Speaker 1: stormed over and they took over the mau Here National 1108 01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:36,200 Speaker 1: Wildlife refuge Um. This was a symbol to them of 1109 01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:39,880 Speaker 1: everything they hated. I don't know what they were thinking. 1110 01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,720 Speaker 1: And they brought in all these rag tag of militia 1111 01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:50,120 Speaker 1: people and um divine revelators uh with the angel Mora, 1112 01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:53,240 Speaker 1: and I was involved. I don't know. I talked to 1113 01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,200 Speaker 1: him a lot. I still don't get it in reading this. 1114 01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:57,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if you know who Ray Wiley Hubbard is. 1115 01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,400 Speaker 1: In reading this, I'm like, this making really great, like 1116 01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:08,520 Speaker 1: snake farm. Um. But I I was because they were 1117 01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,680 Speaker 1: making these statements about public land and I was getting 1118 01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,880 Speaker 1: them on the internet, and the federal government that had 1119 01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:16,840 Speaker 1: locked up all the land, and all a sudden, I 1120 01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:22,080 Speaker 1: was like, going, Holy smokes, the newscasters are repeating the 1121 01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:27,880 Speaker 1: lies and misinformation and disinformation every day to the American people. 1122 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,960 Speaker 1: And I was like, let's go see what's going on there. 1123 01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:37,040 Speaker 1: One Maybe these rebels I've always been interested in rebellion 1124 01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:41,120 Speaker 1: and and pushing back against Big Brother, maybe there'd be cool. 1125 01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:43,720 Speaker 1: Even though I probably don't agree with them. I don't 1126 01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,960 Speaker 1: like what they're saying, there's interesting people. So I went 1127 01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:51,680 Speaker 1: there and it was the snake farm. Yeah, you know, 1128 01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,840 Speaker 1: they got like yeah, and they got people arguing. My 1129 01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:58,320 Speaker 1: son went with me. He was very young, and I 1130 01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,680 Speaker 1: took him back to town because was getting kind of hot. Yeah, 1131 01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:04,240 Speaker 1: you said, you said in the article crackpots are drawn 1132 01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:07,280 Speaker 1: to such an open event like moss to a halogen light. Yep. 1133 01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,760 Speaker 1: And I didn't sacro take myself out of that either, 1134 01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:12,880 Speaker 1: right And then he said, and no, I did not 1135 01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:17,520 Speaker 1: automatic myself. Yeah, and so and I felt like that, 1136 01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,080 Speaker 1: and I was. I was very well accepted there around 1137 01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,240 Speaker 1: the fire and yeah, they're like here's another you know. 1138 01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:27,000 Speaker 1: And uh, we had a lot of great conversations. I 1139 01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,400 Speaker 1: really did, um and they were they were like lots 1140 01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:34,240 Speaker 1: of crackpots who were also open to debate. They were interesting. 1141 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:37,400 Speaker 1: I got along there, Yeah, I did. That was I was, 1142 01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:42,440 Speaker 1: But I was not with my people because the stuff 1143 01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:47,040 Speaker 1: that these folks believed, I mean, you you it ran 1144 01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,240 Speaker 1: the gamut, dude. I mean it was kind of like 1145 01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:53,160 Speaker 1: being at like a sci fi convention with with guns, 1146 01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:57,919 Speaker 1: you know. And I also don't believe in brandishing firearms. 1147 01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,840 Speaker 1: I actually think that like concealed carry is the way 1148 01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,080 Speaker 1: to go. And by the time anybody sees those firearms, 1149 01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:08,160 Speaker 1: they're not They're not there to make a point, you know. 1150 01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,240 Speaker 1: You said the piece that you asked them, like if 1151 01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:17,560 Speaker 1: is brandising air fifteens good for Second Amendment they said, well, 1152 01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:20,760 Speaker 1: that's the whole point of it, right, Not quite and 1153 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,120 Speaker 1: that gets that that gets to this whole, this whole 1154 01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,840 Speaker 1: idea of our cultural war. Now, this this the ability 1155 01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,760 Speaker 1: to twist logic, you know, and the logic was getting 1156 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,480 Speaker 1: pretzeled out there, dude. It was like a jiu jitsu 1157 01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:37,200 Speaker 1: tournament or a yoga yo yoga tournament on steroids. Well 1158 01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:41,480 Speaker 1: what do you think, um, I think you know your 1159 01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:43,960 Speaker 1: piece just it just goes to like the people, and 1160 01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,040 Speaker 1: it explains who they are and kind of gives it 1161 01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,400 Speaker 1: gives a great place and time description of what's happening there. 1162 01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:51,920 Speaker 1: But in the in the larger sense, what do you 1163 01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,320 Speaker 1: feel that that stand off and what the Bundy's and 1164 01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,880 Speaker 1: the Hammonds kind of um brought to the fore? What 1165 01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,760 Speaker 1: does that really mean for especially for hunters of English, 1166 01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,240 Speaker 1: but just for everybody, for everybody. What it what it 1167 01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:09,120 Speaker 1: really brought into was that the American public lands are 1168 01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:13,280 Speaker 1: actually in danger of being transferred to states and privatized. 1169 01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:17,120 Speaker 1: And there's a huge number of people who haven't. I 1170 01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,919 Speaker 1: guess I don't know whether they don't care, or whether 1171 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:24,480 Speaker 1: they don't know what they have, or whether their bizarre 1172 01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:27,880 Speaker 1: hatred of this federal government, which I find to be 1173 01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:32,240 Speaker 1: very abstract, has led them to say, I'm gonna divest 1174 01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:35,000 Speaker 1: myself of all my own assets. I'll burn my house 1175 01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:38,400 Speaker 1: down because I don't like the bank, and they I 1176 01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,720 Speaker 1: still owe twenty k on it um. I don't understand 1177 01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:45,200 Speaker 1: it totally, but I saw it. They're written out very 1178 01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:52,120 Speaker 1: clearly that these people represented something that they would divest us. 1179 01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,960 Speaker 1: They why they think that they're somebody would own the 1180 01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,840 Speaker 1: Bunkerville a lotment and let them graze their cows for free, 1181 01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:02,479 Speaker 1: I don't know. And their their their argument, of course, 1182 01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:06,200 Speaker 1: is that the government should not cannot on land. I 1183 01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:09,120 Speaker 1: have all kind of things that I don't like, you 1184 01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:12,200 Speaker 1: know in this Laurel, but I don't go I don't 1185 01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:15,600 Speaker 1: take over people's houses. Well, another good part of this, 1186 01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:18,960 Speaker 1: where you say that that it's it would have done 1187 01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:20,840 Speaker 1: you no good to try to discuss kind of what 1188 01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,560 Speaker 1: the Taylor Grazing Act, which was kind of at at 1189 01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:25,240 Speaker 1: the core of this issue. They had no idea what 1190 01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:27,200 Speaker 1: it was. They didn't know what it was. They were 1191 01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:32,919 Speaker 1: just jumping on this ideological hatred of the government, right, 1192 01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,440 Speaker 1: and actually it could have been almost hatred of almost anything. 1193 01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,080 Speaker 1: There were people there who. It was like that. I 1194 01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:40,400 Speaker 1: used to say, like, you know, that rebel with without 1195 01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:42,960 Speaker 1: our calls and he said what are you rebuilding against? 1196 01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:46,520 Speaker 1: And James Ding goes, what are you god? And it 1197 01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:47,880 Speaker 1: was like it was like that. I was like, what 1198 01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:51,000 Speaker 1: do you hate? Oh man, don't get me started on that. 1199 01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:53,760 Speaker 1: You know, put another log on the fire and some coffee. 1200 01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,680 Speaker 1: That's right, you did it. Even in this piece, I 1201 01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,480 Speaker 1: think this, this could be seen when I read it, 1202 01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:02,960 Speaker 1: that that boy, um, you could be seen as controversial 1203 01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:06,440 Speaker 1: talking about the suicide rate in the American West and 1204 01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:10,040 Speaker 1: that since the Frontier days it's been an epidemic and 1205 01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:12,560 Speaker 1: from the late nineties on the what is it what 1206 01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:19,520 Speaker 1: you say forty five sixty four whatever about for middle 1207 01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:23,040 Speaker 1: aged white male have been committing suicide at a higher 1208 01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:26,600 Speaker 1: rate throughout these last decades. And that there, that that 1209 01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:29,919 Speaker 1: desperation and that despair had driven a lot of these 1210 01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:33,840 Speaker 1: folks into the acceptance of accult like mentality. Um that 1211 01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:37,320 Speaker 1: you know, cults always have a buggy boogeyman for some 1212 01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,400 Speaker 1: sorts of hate, and that's kind of what had manifest 1213 01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,280 Speaker 1: itself here. You look at this is a couple of 1214 01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:43,000 Speaker 1: years ago, three years ago now you still look back 1215 01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:44,720 Speaker 1: and you still believe that that's kind of at the 1216 01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:48,360 Speaker 1: I do, and I still see it, especially with those 1217 01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:50,000 Speaker 1: guys that I was talking to. It's like, you know, 1218 01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:52,360 Speaker 1: where do you fit into the economy, like and and 1219 01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:55,760 Speaker 1: like you've got you do have. I'm big on this 1220 01:06:55,880 --> 01:07:01,040 Speaker 1: population thing. I mean we are. It's freedom goes down 1221 01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:03,680 Speaker 1: with the the number of people that you have to 1222 01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:08,439 Speaker 1: share it with. Freedom was a pie, you know, and um, 1223 01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:11,600 Speaker 1: I think people my age I grew up, it was 1224 01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:15,160 Speaker 1: we were really free. And now you hit like Denver 1225 01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:18,800 Speaker 1: or you hit hunts for Alabama or Atlanta, and it's 1226 01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:23,640 Speaker 1: like you're it's really crowded. There's you're sharing the pie, 1227 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:29,160 Speaker 1: and um, I think and and economically it's very competitive, right, 1228 01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:32,120 Speaker 1: I mean we it's hard to make a living and 1229 01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:35,160 Speaker 1: it's hard for somebody to reinvent themselves at age fifty 1230 01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:38,720 Speaker 1: five when your ship can from one job and your 1231 01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:41,200 Speaker 1: mortgage just you lost your house like an oh eight. 1232 01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,880 Speaker 1: Yeah that's coming. Yeah, that's coming with with the automation 1233 01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:49,520 Speaker 1: as well. At the same time, somebody that's been doing 1234 01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:52,840 Speaker 1: something for thirty years, right, at the same time, we're adding, um, 1235 01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:57,000 Speaker 1: we're the fastest growing developed nation in the world while 1236 01:07:57,040 --> 01:08:01,560 Speaker 1: doing the automation self driving rucks. I mean, it doesn't 1237 01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:06,400 Speaker 1: really add up, and so despair. I actually just go 1238 01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:10,400 Speaker 1: fishing and hunting, right, And but a lot of those 1239 01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:13,160 Speaker 1: people were not fishermen and hunters. I promise That's what 1240 01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:17,080 Speaker 1: I told about Dot those guys from Wisconsin. I was like, dude, 1241 01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:20,280 Speaker 1: go fishing. I don't stand out here with that freaking 1242 01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:23,920 Speaker 1: rugy ranch rifle. Yeah, just freezing cold, dude, take your 1243 01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:25,720 Speaker 1: horse and ride it up in the wilderness. Yeah. And 1244 01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:28,479 Speaker 1: he did. Dwayne Elmer did. He loved to hunt. Was 1245 01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,000 Speaker 1: he was a It was a tragic figure. Really yeah. 1246 01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:32,680 Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of tragic figures and that 1247 01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:35,639 Speaker 1: and that, But I think it's it's less to say 1248 01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:37,439 Speaker 1: that we need to go back over all that stuff, 1249 01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:40,640 Speaker 1: but to say that, like one this piece, if you 1250 01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:42,760 Speaker 1: haven't read it, go high Country US dot com, read 1251 01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:45,760 Speaker 1: dot org and read it. It's it just has a 1252 01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:48,839 Speaker 1: character profile these these people. Man. I mean that obviously 1253 01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:52,760 Speaker 1: there were plenty of characters to profile, but you did 1254 01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:55,080 Speaker 1: an amazing job of doing it. But it also still 1255 01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:57,120 Speaker 1: it's even though it's a couple of years old, it's 1256 01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:00,240 Speaker 1: still goes to the point of that there is is 1257 01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:05,759 Speaker 1: um a large force in our world to privatize land. 1258 01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:10,559 Speaker 1: And it's not just uh folks like the Bundy's. I mean, 1259 01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:13,519 Speaker 1: it's like they were just kind of picking up on 1260 01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:17,600 Speaker 1: the ideology of of a larger that's right there, and 1261 01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:20,760 Speaker 1: they were the the energy that fed them was is 1262 01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:24,160 Speaker 1: coming from um like people. They got a lot softer 1263 01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:26,880 Speaker 1: hands and Amon Bundy buddy, and they ain't got the 1264 01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:30,360 Speaker 1: car hard jacket and the and the ripped up boots. Yeah, 1265 01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:32,880 Speaker 1: I mean they know what they're doing. Yeah, that's and 1266 01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:35,720 Speaker 1: that's that's what I got from this and and in 1267 01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,200 Speaker 1: the in the last couple of lines, you just said 1268 01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,920 Speaker 1: that the U. S Constitution, one of the most liberal 1269 01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:44,160 Speaker 1: and empowering documents ever composed, becomes with just a slate 1270 01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:48,519 Speaker 1: annotation or interpretation, the tool of our own enslavement. Right. 1271 01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:52,240 Speaker 1: I think that's that's huge. Yeah. I mean, anytime you 1272 01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:55,280 Speaker 1: have something that's so powerful that you've you've you've tied 1273 01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:58,320 Speaker 1: so many horses too, you know, you have to you 1274 01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:01,559 Speaker 1: have to be very careful. Yeah, here are people, you know, 1275 01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:03,920 Speaker 1: and these groups of people, the Bundyes and the Hammonds 1276 01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,080 Speaker 1: and all this militia folks that came in that are 1277 01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:08,120 Speaker 1: so twisted up and the ways that they think about 1278 01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:11,360 Speaker 1: the world that they keep running into these hypocrisies. But 1279 01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:15,599 Speaker 1: they've got that scows In constitution in their pocket, and 1280 01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,599 Speaker 1: you described that it had a pocket constitution and they 1281 01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:22,200 Speaker 1: just wave it at you. Whatever you're producing, and Cleon 1282 01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:26,200 Speaker 1: Scoalson's constitution is annotated by him. It's changed. Yeah, it's 1283 01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:29,679 Speaker 1: it's not the document. Yeah, that's hard once you get 1284 01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:32,120 Speaker 1: so twisted up. And then this idea that this document 1285 01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:35,040 Speaker 1: is sacred, which we believe it to be sacred because 1286 01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:37,599 Speaker 1: it has worked and is working for us. But these 1287 01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:39,960 Speaker 1: folks got a real twisted up in it. They are 1288 01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:42,240 Speaker 1: and it and it has to do too with separation 1289 01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:45,080 Speaker 1: of church and state for the for the LDS people 1290 01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:47,559 Speaker 1: that were in Utah a long time ago, right, I 1291 01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:50,559 Speaker 1: mean it was and I mean other countries wouldn't have 1292 01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,400 Speaker 1: put up with that, yeah right yeah. And I mean 1293 01:10:54,040 --> 01:10:56,479 Speaker 1: at the end of this piece, you take take this 1294 01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:59,160 Speaker 1: case and you kind of bring it, you walk it 1295 01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:04,400 Speaker 1: out to what happens when these privatization forces might win 1296 01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:08,719 Speaker 1: and what precedent does that set um And you said 1297 01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,240 Speaker 1: once a precedent for divesting federal lands as well. Set 1298 01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:14,599 Speaker 1: the eastern public lands, most of them far more valuable 1299 01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,400 Speaker 1: than those in the West, will go on an international 1300 01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:19,599 Speaker 1: auction block. The unique America experiment and balancing the public 1301 01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:23,200 Speaker 1: freedom and good with private interests will be forever shattered, 1302 01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:26,719 Speaker 1: while a kind of inequality source not just an equality 1303 01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:30,759 Speaker 1: economics and economic opportunity, but of life experience, the chance 1304 01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:34,720 Speaker 1: to experience liberty itself. And it goes on. But I mean, 1305 01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:37,000 Speaker 1: I think that to me, it speaks to so many 1306 01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:39,320 Speaker 1: of the issues that we face with when somebody says 1307 01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:41,160 Speaker 1: keep it public or they say public lands, and we 1308 01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:43,240 Speaker 1: talk about it. I'm wearing a sweater right now, it's 1309 01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:47,479 Speaker 1: a public landowner. I know that this is a very 1310 01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:50,240 Speaker 1: confusing sweatshirt that I've got on. It says public landowner. 1311 01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:53,320 Speaker 1: There's a lot of things that go into that. Um. 1312 01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:55,519 Speaker 1: But I think this piece, like like I've said a 1313 01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:57,639 Speaker 1: couple of times already, even though it's three years old, 1314 01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,519 Speaker 1: even though the Bundy thing is kind of faded for um, 1315 01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:03,599 Speaker 1: the public eye, it still goes to a lot of 1316 01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:06,120 Speaker 1: what what we need to be aware of and need 1317 01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:08,760 Speaker 1: to addrest continually address. Yeah, and the cows are still 1318 01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:12,920 Speaker 1: on the Bunkerville allotment and um, the precedent there. I've 1319 01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:16,160 Speaker 1: done a lot of looking into this right and wanna 1320 01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:21,160 Speaker 1: own since this essay and the um. Yeah, you know 1321 01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:24,160 Speaker 1: we're here. Here's what you're gonna see. There's gonna be 1322 01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:28,719 Speaker 1: squatters on public land and they're gonna take possession and 1323 01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:31,240 Speaker 1: and argue for adverse possession into all this stuff in 1324 01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:33,960 Speaker 1: the same way that that Mr Bundy has. Those cows 1325 01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:37,439 Speaker 1: are on the on the land now, and we're then 1326 01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:42,920 Speaker 1: law enforcement and the courts will be tasked with doing 1327 01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:45,600 Speaker 1: something which they could not do at Bunkerville, which was 1328 01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:47,680 Speaker 1: to get those cows off of the public land even 1329 01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:52,040 Speaker 1: though they were having a tremendous impact. Yeah, so it's 1330 01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:56,840 Speaker 1: gonna test the testing of the nature, the notion, the 1331 01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:00,720 Speaker 1: idea of public lands is really just beginning. Yeah, like 1332 01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:03,960 Speaker 1: you said, this is never you know folks that in 1333 01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:06,720 Speaker 1: monorn times. I think as a as a guy grew 1334 01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,800 Speaker 1: up in Maryland and I wasn't really aware of the 1335 01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:13,840 Speaker 1: public lands battle until I was maybe twenty four, and 1336 01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:16,200 Speaker 1: then then I dove straight into it after I'd hunted 1337 01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:19,120 Speaker 1: public lands and I understood what it was. And then 1338 01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:24,280 Speaker 1: years later when I was more educated by Steve Ornellas 1339 01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:27,479 Speaker 1: and others about the issue. I had a kid, and 1340 01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:31,559 Speaker 1: I realized all the connection, you know, connected points in 1341 01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:34,600 Speaker 1: my life that made this an important thing. Right, Not 1342 01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:38,120 Speaker 1: because I'm a liberal or like it, or a Republican, 1343 01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:41,719 Speaker 1: or because I believe in big government or states rights 1344 01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:46,160 Speaker 1: or at all. None of that ever comes up in 1345 01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:48,120 Speaker 1: my mind when I think about the opportunity to have 1346 01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:53,160 Speaker 1: public lands UM. But it's unavoidable, right. And when we 1347 01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:55,840 Speaker 1: talk about these things, I just remembered going up when 1348 01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:58,960 Speaker 1: I was in UM. Growing up outside of Huntsville. We 1349 01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:01,040 Speaker 1: had our own little arm and I had places to 1350 01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:02,960 Speaker 1: shoot and roam and stuff. But we would go up 1351 01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:07,559 Speaker 1: to the Pisco and climb and looking glass. And the 1352 01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:10,880 Speaker 1: idea that you could go and risk your life and 1353 01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:14,640 Speaker 1: on this enormous piece of block of of hard sandstone 1354 01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:18,479 Speaker 1: bullet sandstone was just amazing to me. Nobody was coming 1355 01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:21,200 Speaker 1: up there and ask you what you're doing. Uh. When 1356 01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:24,360 Speaker 1: you're done climbing, you went and got in your tent 1357 01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:27,479 Speaker 1: and crashed out and got up the next morning did 1358 01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:30,360 Speaker 1: it again. And it was just like I was like, 1359 01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:34,000 Speaker 1: holy smokes. Even then, it blew my mind. Yeah, And 1360 01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:37,280 Speaker 1: reading your writing and and and knowing what you believe 1361 01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:40,439 Speaker 1: is like it's not been your life, like what you're 1362 01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:42,880 Speaker 1: just saying before, it's like you're not you're not a 1363 01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:46,360 Speaker 1: rich man. I'm not a rich man. I say that, 1364 01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:50,519 Speaker 1: like I just gona say. It's not that writing about 1365 01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:55,120 Speaker 1: conservation and tackling the tough, tough subjects that you've chosen 1366 01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:58,280 Speaker 1: to tackle has a personal or really you know, has 1367 01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:00,280 Speaker 1: a professional benefit of personal vendos that as it's an 1368 01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:02,000 Speaker 1: outlet for the things you care about. But it's not 1369 01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:08,280 Speaker 1: like you're doing it for financial gain, obviously not. That's 1370 01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:09,680 Speaker 1: what I was talking to Ryan Calley and I said, 1371 01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:11,840 Speaker 1: what should I ask Kyle? He said, We'll just ask him. Why, 1372 01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, do you continue to push on this conservation 1373 01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:20,760 Speaker 1: narrative and be outspoken about it if you know, like 1374 01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:24,240 Speaker 1: you said maybe earlier when we didn't have a record 1375 01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:27,280 Speaker 1: on that, it seems like you go and you do 1376 01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:29,439 Speaker 1: this work, and you pour yourself into it, and then 1377 01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:32,719 Speaker 1: at the at the end of it, what the payback 1378 01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:36,320 Speaker 1: isn't nearly what you what the efforts you gave. No, 1379 01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:39,280 Speaker 1: it's not, it's not, and but there is a payback. Um, 1380 01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:42,080 Speaker 1: there's one that I've tried to write about where I 1381 01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:44,760 Speaker 1: have experienced. I'm actually working on a piece right now, 1382 01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:48,240 Speaker 1: but I have even the ice fish. And a month 1383 01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:50,800 Speaker 1: ago when my dog brought me back this antelope horn 1384 01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:53,519 Speaker 1: from this carcass it found in the snow bink. That 1385 01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:57,360 Speaker 1: day was so freaking awesome. I was by myself. It's 1386 01:15:57,360 --> 01:15:59,960 Speaker 1: about eight team below. One day was eighteen below, the 1387 01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:02,519 Speaker 1: next was forty above, and and we were just me 1388 01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:04,880 Speaker 1: and the dogs were just having this great time. And 1389 01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:09,519 Speaker 1: I think that I owe something a little bit. Two 1390 01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:13,479 Speaker 1: and I have had such uh what's that in in 1391 01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:16,400 Speaker 1: Blade Runner? You know where he goes, Oh, Roy, your 1392 01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:19,080 Speaker 1: life is short, but you have burned so very brightly, 1393 01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:22,240 Speaker 1: you know. And uh, the Android that have been in 1394 01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:25,360 Speaker 1: the Warrior Android. And I like, I feel like I 1395 01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:28,200 Speaker 1: might owe something for that time at looking Glass in 1396 01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:32,800 Speaker 1: the Pisca, having those incredible experiences which I've just been 1397 01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:35,720 Speaker 1: able to have over and over again. So like like 1398 01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:39,080 Speaker 1: for public Lands particularly, I think I've gotten too much 1399 01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:41,479 Speaker 1: to not be able to have to spoke speak to 1400 01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:44,760 Speaker 1: back Um the other thing I'd say, and there we 1401 01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:48,599 Speaker 1: gotta ask ask Cal. I'd tell him it's like I'm 1402 01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:51,479 Speaker 1: pretty unemployable, dude. I mean, I worked in the woods 1403 01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:55,120 Speaker 1: like I was. I did posting polls and fire lines 1404 01:16:55,280 --> 01:17:01,880 Speaker 1: and slashing. I just a tree planting for years and 1405 01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:04,320 Speaker 1: and I did not It didn't make a lot of money. 1406 01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:08,840 Speaker 1: You know that either, So, um, not making a lot 1407 01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:12,200 Speaker 1: of money righting it was not a big deal. Yeah, 1408 01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:15,080 Speaker 1: well it it goes back to like there's a lot 1409 01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:19,320 Speaker 1: of things in your personal story that kind of color 1410 01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:23,640 Speaker 1: what you just said. So you grew up in girly Alabama, 1411 01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:26,559 Speaker 1: which is a long I feel like it's a long 1412 01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,160 Speaker 1: way from Montana. Yeah, for sure. I didn't really even 1413 01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:34,920 Speaker 1: know what Montana was. Um. The beauty of Alabama, UM 1414 01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:38,400 Speaker 1: is it can be be very It's it's a big, 1415 01:17:38,439 --> 01:17:41,120 Speaker 1: powerful place. I had a cool place, and so I 1416 01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:44,960 Speaker 1: didn't really look outside that much. It wasn't until we 1417 01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:48,240 Speaker 1: were tree planners for I worked for Warehouser Company and 1418 01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:51,840 Speaker 1: we had our own little contracting business in Tuscaloos, Alabama. 1419 01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:55,160 Speaker 1: And it wouldn't until I started reading Outside magazine and 1420 01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:57,800 Speaker 1: stuff like that that, Um, I thought about the West 1421 01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:01,400 Speaker 1: where they had another tree planting culture. And that's actually 1422 01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:06,120 Speaker 1: what set me off this little threads of pool. But yeah, 1423 01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:08,680 Speaker 1: it was you were what nine I read that you 1424 01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:13,479 Speaker 1: were nine years old. Um, when you got your first shotgun, right, yeah, 1425 01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:15,560 Speaker 1: I gotta I still got it. It's a seat of 1426 01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:18,439 Speaker 1: Stevens twenty gauge single and your dad, you know, like 1427 01:18:18,479 --> 01:18:21,200 Speaker 1: you're saying earlier, dad didn't hunt. Really he had hunted 1428 01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:24,320 Speaker 1: as a kid, and um he shot this I think 1429 01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:26,760 Speaker 1: it was a squirrel and it was early season. It 1430 01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:28,840 Speaker 1: had a onnch of those wolves in it, those those 1431 01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:33,280 Speaker 1: real nasty maggots, and um that put him off of that. Um, 1432 01:18:33,320 --> 01:18:36,360 Speaker 1: but he wasn't against hunt at all, like you said, 1433 01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:38,559 Speaker 1: he enabled you to Oh man. They were the ultimate 1434 01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:43,080 Speaker 1: in neighborsmo, you know, and and and good basic guns. 1435 01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:45,040 Speaker 1: Now we were talking about that in then a recent 1436 01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:47,000 Speaker 1: Mediator podcast. They're like, well, what did your you know, 1437 01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:49,519 Speaker 1: we always talk about what our dad fathers did for hunting, 1438 01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:52,679 Speaker 1: like what did your mother do? And my my first 1439 01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:55,120 Speaker 1: thought that just like organically came to my brain was 1440 01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:58,400 Speaker 1: like enabler, like I said, like, tore down some barries 1441 01:18:58,439 --> 01:19:01,280 Speaker 1: and let me keep going. Yeah, and um my mother 1442 01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:06,760 Speaker 1: very bravely, uh cooked and she came up with like 1443 01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:09,240 Speaker 1: bob white quail, which they were they were still around 1444 01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:11,720 Speaker 1: on toast because this was something that she knew was 1445 01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:15,679 Speaker 1: really good. Um, and rabbit and squirrels stuff like that. 1446 01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:18,320 Speaker 1: She drew the line. We tried to do a snapping 1447 01:19:18,400 --> 01:19:20,439 Speaker 1: turtle once and I did I could. I cut it 1448 01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:23,960 Speaker 1: wrong and it was really foul And she drew the 1449 01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:31,599 Speaker 1: line at at further snapping turtle experiments. She's the principal ladies. Yeah, um, 1450 01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:34,680 Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah. We were talking again earlier before we 1451 01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:38,479 Speaker 1: hit record about Ronella and his just like his penchant 1452 01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:41,000 Speaker 1: to go and hunt fish no matter where he was 1453 01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:44,920 Speaker 1: in his life, right, always running towards it. Yeah, thing 1454 01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:48,120 Speaker 1: like like obviously driven. Yeah, that's kind of where you 1455 01:19:48,320 --> 01:19:52,559 Speaker 1: like when you right and talk about your life, Like 1456 01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:54,280 Speaker 1: you didn't like high school and you quit at the 1457 01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:56,840 Speaker 1: end of the junior year because there was a quote 1458 01:19:56,880 --> 01:19:58,679 Speaker 1: you said, I wandered around with a rifle and fishing 1459 01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:04,800 Speaker 1: ride when other kids were it's cool. I just couldn't. Um, 1460 01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:08,960 Speaker 1: I could not get used to being confined in in 1461 01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:12,559 Speaker 1: school and um, it was a waste a lot of 1462 01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:15,880 Speaker 1: wasted time. Like I like, um, I don't, I don't, 1463 01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:17,679 Speaker 1: I don't go back and go that was really cool. 1464 01:20:17,960 --> 01:20:22,280 Speaker 1: It wasn't cool. Um, and uh, I but I've I've 1465 01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:26,519 Speaker 1: shot a bow and I bow fished and I shot 1466 01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:29,480 Speaker 1: a pistol at carp. I mean it was like anything, 1467 01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:33,200 Speaker 1: you know. I fished these small creeks a lot, and 1468 01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:35,160 Speaker 1: they were really small. The fish were tiny. I don't 1469 01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:37,559 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that anybody else got it, and so 1470 01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:41,080 Speaker 1: I didn't always have I didn't have any partners um 1471 01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:43,639 Speaker 1: in it. It was just like like catching little broom, 1472 01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:46,320 Speaker 1: you know. And she read I was obsessed with red horse, 1473 01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:48,599 Speaker 1: these suckers that would run out of the Flint River, 1474 01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:51,120 Speaker 1: come up Hurricane Creek, and I've written a lot about 1475 01:20:51,120 --> 01:20:54,040 Speaker 1: this in up Molder Branch, and then they would appear 1476 01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:57,280 Speaker 1: like like salmon. This was like my version of Alaska. 1477 01:20:57,360 --> 01:20:59,120 Speaker 1: But it was like right down the road, you know. 1478 01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:02,760 Speaker 1: And then when I got my license, Um, I just 1479 01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:06,479 Speaker 1: stopped going to school and I drove around. I was 1480 01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:09,040 Speaker 1: obsessed with these gravel pits at that time that that 1481 01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:12,720 Speaker 1: flooded out from the paint rock and Flint rivers, and 1482 01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:15,880 Speaker 1: they were filled with croppy. And I got owned a 1483 01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:18,200 Speaker 1: croppy at the Madison County Lake, which is a pay 1484 01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:21,120 Speaker 1: fishing lake. It's really close to my house. And I 1485 01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:24,720 Speaker 1: was obsessed with croppy and so I just I just 1486 01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:30,720 Speaker 1: drove this car around looking for different fish. Yeah, and 1487 01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:33,080 Speaker 1: I think hopefully anybody listened to this, who's a young 1488 01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:37,120 Speaker 1: man or or a young woman who you don't need 1489 01:21:37,160 --> 01:21:38,760 Speaker 1: to do it that way, But you're not weird for 1490 01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:41,320 Speaker 1: having like wanting to be outside, just spending in a 1491 01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:45,679 Speaker 1: different direction. Yeah. It was not positive though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 1492 01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:51,800 Speaker 1: So then eventually you during your teenage years, you visited Montana, right? No, Um, 1493 01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:54,040 Speaker 1: I never did. H. I didn't come to Montana to 1494 01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:57,599 Speaker 1: always in my twenties. Yeah, I actually went. I went 1495 01:21:57,640 --> 01:22:01,599 Speaker 1: to take Spanish at Berkeley because I was behind when 1496 01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:05,640 Speaker 1: I was in college, and um, I saw California and 1497 01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:08,719 Speaker 1: somebody in New Orleans, where I was I went to college, 1498 01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:10,920 Speaker 1: he said, have you ever been out West? I said, yeah, 1499 01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:13,160 Speaker 1: I went to California. And because no, I don't mean that, 1500 01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:17,679 Speaker 1: I mean really out west, and that light went off 1501 01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:21,360 Speaker 1: in my head. In I came to um Yellow Bay 1502 01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:28,720 Speaker 1: Writer's Workshop, and that's when I first saw Montana. Um 1503 01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:30,439 Speaker 1: and then how did that change it? You're like, I 1504 01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:32,160 Speaker 1: have to come here and have to be a writer. Yeah, 1505 01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:34,280 Speaker 1: I do, well, I wanted to be a writer, but 1506 01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:37,800 Speaker 1: I was on the train in the Whitefish was a 1507 01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:40,680 Speaker 1: guy named Denny he still lives up there. He's a 1508 01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:43,160 Speaker 1: school teacher now, probably getting to retirement. And he was 1509 01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:46,120 Speaker 1: a tree planner and they get a bonus if they 1510 01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:48,639 Speaker 1: sign a real tree planter who stays for the whole season. 1511 01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:50,880 Speaker 1: And so Danny gave me a place to stay at 1512 01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:53,679 Speaker 1: their house, and we went drinking at the palace bar, 1513 01:22:54,200 --> 01:22:57,559 Speaker 1: and the fires of were raging, and they told me 1514 01:22:57,600 --> 01:22:59,840 Speaker 1: all about the fortunes to be made in tree planting 1515 01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:03,799 Speaker 1: in the Rocky Mountains. And that was I knew I had. 1516 01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:07,160 Speaker 1: I could make it with a with a ho Dad. 1517 01:23:07,479 --> 01:23:09,559 Speaker 1: I've been swinging a hoo Dad since I was nineteen, 1518 01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:11,760 Speaker 1: and I figured I could swing a ho Dad and 1519 01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:13,640 Speaker 1: the Rockies as well as I couldn't know about him. 1520 01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:17,479 Speaker 1: Not quite true, but I did do it. Um, that's 1521 01:23:17,479 --> 01:23:21,240 Speaker 1: what brought me there. When did you discover that you'd 1522 01:23:21,240 --> 01:23:25,000 Speaker 1: like that you could make a living writing? Um. I 1523 01:23:25,360 --> 01:23:27,640 Speaker 1: went to graduate school in writing, but it was it 1524 01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:30,880 Speaker 1: was a external degree where you you'd only go for 1525 01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:32,840 Speaker 1: two weeks and you come back home. And I was 1526 01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:39,160 Speaker 1: working in the woods, and UM, I found a story. Uh, 1527 01:23:39,200 --> 01:23:41,360 Speaker 1: the first story I ever did was about this elk 1528 01:23:41,439 --> 01:23:46,559 Speaker 1: farm and it was so outlandish, and I thought other 1529 01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:49,599 Speaker 1: people are gonna see this, how outlandish this is and 1530 01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:53,360 Speaker 1: who are these people doing it? And who what kind 1531 01:23:53,400 --> 01:23:56,200 Speaker 1: of person goes into the fence and shoots this elk 1532 01:23:56,240 --> 01:23:59,280 Speaker 1: and then has a picture of himself taken. UM And 1533 01:23:59,439 --> 01:24:03,320 Speaker 1: that was my first story that seven yep, it started 1534 01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:07,160 Speaker 1: ninety seven the UM probably published. The stories started coming 1535 01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:12,360 Speaker 1: out like UM. And that was High Country News, High 1536 01:24:12,360 --> 01:24:18,400 Speaker 1: Country News and Fielding Stream. Yeah. Yeah, and you how many? 1537 01:24:18,439 --> 01:24:21,040 Speaker 1: I have a note here that you might have published 1538 01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:23,679 Speaker 1: two hundred pieces over your lifetime in High Country News. 1539 01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:26,400 Speaker 1: It might be somewhere like that. Yeah, has it writ 1540 01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:28,840 Speaker 1: There's no way you keep track of that. I never, no, 1541 01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:30,720 Speaker 1: I never you could ask me how many pieces you've 1542 01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:34,160 Speaker 1: been published? Every like somewhere above one below a million, 1543 01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:37,400 Speaker 1: a million? Right? Um. High Country News an incredible outlet. 1544 01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:39,960 Speaker 1: UM and I I they were starting to do all 1545 01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:45,439 Speaker 1: this energy development along on the Blackfeet Reservation, and I 1546 01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:48,000 Speaker 1: knew that was a story that would be fascinating because 1547 01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:50,799 Speaker 1: Chief Mountain is like the sacred site there right outside 1548 01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:53,760 Speaker 1: the park and there were some leasing going on up there, 1549 01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:56,760 Speaker 1: and I was I was immediately interested in that, and 1550 01:24:56,920 --> 01:24:59,720 Speaker 1: High Country News gave me, uh, like we used to call, 1551 01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:01,960 Speaker 1: you know, out of the privateer takes a letter of 1552 01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:05,160 Speaker 1: mark and like like back in those days, I would say, 1553 01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:07,160 Speaker 1: would you give me a letter saying I'm working for you? 1554 01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:09,680 Speaker 1: And then you know you've got this, like that's your 1555 01:25:09,760 --> 01:25:12,720 Speaker 1: letter of mark and off your It's an adventure, you 1556 01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:16,960 Speaker 1: know that, Like journalism is an adventure stringing strings and 1557 01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:21,240 Speaker 1: string forever. Um. I got in the Economist doing that too. 1558 01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:24,479 Speaker 1: Yeah it was, and they didn't pay a lot, but 1559 01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:27,800 Speaker 1: it was it was another market. That's it feels like 1560 01:25:27,840 --> 01:25:29,960 Speaker 1: that time in writing is kind of well, maybe it's 1561 01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:33,720 Speaker 1: not gone, but it certainly has morshed when someone to 1562 01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:35,519 Speaker 1: pay you a lot of money to go and actually 1563 01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:37,720 Speaker 1: do the work. And it wasn't a lot of money then, 1564 01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:40,040 Speaker 1: but it was equivalent to what I was getting safe 1565 01:25:40,080 --> 01:25:43,080 Speaker 1: thin in timber. Yeah enough enough where you can make 1566 01:25:43,080 --> 01:25:44,800 Speaker 1: a living. And they would say, hey, go down to 1567 01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:47,000 Speaker 1: paying them all for three weeks support on this thing. 1568 01:25:47,080 --> 01:25:50,679 Speaker 1: Come back like that that that we'll cover your plane. 1569 01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:53,200 Speaker 1: Take a while. That still exists in some corners. It 1570 01:25:53,240 --> 01:25:56,840 Speaker 1: doesn't really exist in totality. It's gone. Even if you 1571 01:25:56,880 --> 01:26:01,120 Speaker 1: get up into and recognized like here you've got a talent, 1572 01:26:01,560 --> 01:26:04,920 Speaker 1: it's still not necessarily there. Yeah. Yeah, and that hasn't 1573 01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:07,439 Speaker 1: been that many years that that's kind of just gone 1574 01:26:07,439 --> 01:26:09,920 Speaker 1: away after the digital revolution probably has a lot to 1575 01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:12,160 Speaker 1: do with it does for better and worse like that, 1576 01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:14,880 Speaker 1: Like if you want to write, though, you've got more opportunity, 1577 01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:17,479 Speaker 1: You have more opportunities to be seen and read. That's 1578 01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:19,880 Speaker 1: that's for sure. Um, you've got a lot of you've 1579 01:26:19,880 --> 01:26:22,240 Speaker 1: gone you know, you've written for a lot of endemic 1580 01:26:22,240 --> 01:26:24,800 Speaker 1: and nonendemic publications, and I mean there's I have a 1581 01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:29,360 Speaker 1: list of awards here you've you've won. Um, what's your 1582 01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:32,559 Speaker 1: what what would be your defining philosophy as a writer? 1583 01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:38,760 Speaker 1: Is it true? Yeah? Um? That and uh I still 1584 01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:41,400 Speaker 1: have that up on a bulletin board somewhere like is 1585 01:26:41,439 --> 01:26:44,760 Speaker 1: it true? You know? And each sentence like is that 1586 01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:48,440 Speaker 1: sentence got anything where it has a hole in it? 1587 01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:53,040 Speaker 1: Is it true? Yeah? Yeah? Which makes right? Is writing 1588 01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:58,360 Speaker 1: painful for you? Bringing the focus is almost impossible for me? 1589 01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:01,400 Speaker 1: And the focus is very intense and I don't like 1590 01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:04,240 Speaker 1: go into that place. I avoid it. It's um, we've 1591 01:27:04,280 --> 01:27:06,720 Speaker 1: talked about this on podcasts on my podcast before, but 1592 01:27:07,040 --> 01:27:09,880 Speaker 1: Stephen press fields The War of Art. It's a book 1593 01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:14,719 Speaker 1: about resistance, and the resistance has been my my fight. 1594 01:27:15,400 --> 01:27:19,519 Speaker 1: I fight resistance. He nailed it in that book, and 1595 01:27:19,560 --> 01:27:22,400 Speaker 1: I just I have never seen it better articulated. And 1596 01:27:22,479 --> 01:27:25,759 Speaker 1: that's what I thought. And I'm behind on some columns 1597 01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:31,000 Speaker 1: right now. And beat me. It beat me every the 1598 01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:36,120 Speaker 1: days that I attempted to to uh enter the focused points. 1599 01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:39,960 Speaker 1: Resistance beat me on those days. And then it's not 1600 01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:43,559 Speaker 1: just procrastination. Your life becomes really it's it's really shitty 1601 01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:46,160 Speaker 1: because you can't enjoy anything else because this is hanging 1602 01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:50,160 Speaker 1: over you. Yeah, does that happen to you? Oh? I 1603 01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:52,160 Speaker 1: always people ask me about writing. I think it's the 1604 01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:54,360 Speaker 1: most because we're doing a lot of things here at 1605 01:27:54,360 --> 01:27:57,800 Speaker 1: this new company. We're doing video, we're doing podcast. Of course, 1606 01:27:57,840 --> 01:28:00,400 Speaker 1: this is like the easiest form of expression because it 1607 01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:03,760 Speaker 1: literally is just talking. Yeah, free flow ideas, which I 1608 01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:07,120 Speaker 1: think makes it more valuable, um or as valuable at 1609 01:28:07,160 --> 01:28:09,559 Speaker 1: least in its own way and its own way. It's 1610 01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:12,320 Speaker 1: like its own art form. Like you, certainly, if you've 1611 01:28:12,400 --> 01:28:14,840 Speaker 1: you've recorded many hours of yourself talking. I've recorded many 1612 01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:17,840 Speaker 1: hours myself talking. You kind of have to become comfortable 1613 01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:20,600 Speaker 1: with yourself, uh and in your own skin to be 1614 01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:25,240 Speaker 1: able to do that without falling apart um. But in writing, like, 1615 01:28:25,280 --> 01:28:28,479 Speaker 1: I'm constantly falling apart, constantly falling apart, And I think 1616 01:28:28,479 --> 01:28:30,559 Speaker 1: what you just said is like, is it true? Is 1617 01:28:30,600 --> 01:28:34,040 Speaker 1: something that I could like, I've never I've never achieved 1618 01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:36,840 Speaker 1: what I feel in one article or even a series 1619 01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:40,320 Speaker 1: of articles is like truth. I always feel like if 1620 01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:42,760 Speaker 1: I was a critic of this writing, I could tear 1621 01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:46,360 Speaker 1: it this down or down this organization of thought. But 1622 01:28:46,400 --> 01:28:50,120 Speaker 1: then you're like, it's it's imperfect because you're imperfect, Like 1623 01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:53,320 Speaker 1: your knowledge of the situation is always evolving. You can't 1624 01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:57,360 Speaker 1: at allow yourself to be paralyzed by that. And what's 1625 01:28:57,400 --> 01:29:00,920 Speaker 1: scary though, is also you can't write a bunch of bullshit. Yeah. Yeah, 1626 01:29:01,120 --> 01:29:04,280 Speaker 1: you're kind of like floating in the sea and you're like, oh, 1627 01:29:05,360 --> 01:29:07,000 Speaker 1: you find an ore and you get rowing, and then 1628 01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:08,719 Speaker 1: you lose that ore and you float for a while, 1629 01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:10,000 Speaker 1: and then you pick it up again, and then you 1630 01:29:10,040 --> 01:29:12,200 Speaker 1: get closer to shore, and then you never make it 1631 01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:14,640 Speaker 1: to shore, but you're always clicking getting closer. Right, how 1632 01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:17,840 Speaker 1: do you deal with the Internet when you're writing? Do 1633 01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:21,559 Speaker 1: you talk go back and forth to stuff? Yeah? Yeah, 1634 01:29:21,600 --> 01:29:23,240 Speaker 1: I think it's in a better nature. It's it's in 1635 01:29:23,240 --> 01:29:26,320 Speaker 1: your nature to do that. Um. And I've you know, 1636 01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:28,559 Speaker 1: I've never written a book, which you have, and I 1637 01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:32,080 Speaker 1: want to. And I just fear that the more that 1638 01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:36,160 Speaker 1: I'm involved in social media, involved in the Internet, involved 1639 01:29:36,200 --> 01:29:38,920 Speaker 1: in that way of collecting information, that the further I 1640 01:29:38,960 --> 01:29:43,320 Speaker 1: will like my abilities are being sucked, you know, suck 1641 01:29:43,400 --> 01:29:46,439 Speaker 1: to dry my ability to collect information and to organize. 1642 01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:50,639 Speaker 1: Because I feel like most writers, um, and most orders 1643 01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:53,920 Speaker 1: as well, It's like organization of thought is one of 1644 01:29:53,920 --> 01:29:57,080 Speaker 1: the biggest things that people struggle with, and I struggle with, 1645 01:29:57,560 --> 01:29:59,600 Speaker 1: you know, organizing your thoughts in such a way that 1646 01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:02,880 Speaker 1: can compelling to everyone outside of your own mind, Yeah, 1647 01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:05,360 Speaker 1: for sure. And and what that involves is no and 1648 01:30:05,400 --> 01:30:08,559 Speaker 1: ten thousand things and and deciding what the one hundred 1649 01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:11,559 Speaker 1: of those are that represents all that will be left out, 1650 01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:15,599 Speaker 1: and then organizing those into a narrative. And that's it. 1651 01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:17,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like the your piece in the 1652 01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:22,040 Speaker 1: High Country News on on the Bundy Um situation. I 1653 01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:25,080 Speaker 1: think it's easier for me, and maybe this is a 1654 01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:27,360 Speaker 1: different for you. But when I've met someone and I 1655 01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:31,679 Speaker 1: can and and I can sit down and articulate their character, 1656 01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:34,720 Speaker 1: right it's easier for me to do that because it 1657 01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:37,439 Speaker 1: takes it's less of it's a less of a lift 1658 01:30:37,479 --> 01:30:39,120 Speaker 1: as far as the organization of thought, because you can 1659 01:30:39,160 --> 01:30:41,280 Speaker 1: just sit down and immerse yourself in that person and 1660 01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:43,559 Speaker 1: your interactions with them, and then let that flow into 1661 01:30:43,560 --> 01:30:46,519 Speaker 1: the page, right for sure. And then and um, especially 1662 01:30:46,520 --> 01:30:49,160 Speaker 1: if that person is a compelling character who's carrying a 1663 01:30:49,200 --> 01:30:51,760 Speaker 1: gun or he's he's involved in some type of m 1664 01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:54,519 Speaker 1: he or she is involved. I did that series on 1665 01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:59,680 Speaker 1: the myth People years ago. Um that that it was 1666 01:30:59,720 --> 01:31:03,760 Speaker 1: not gimme, but the the people were so compelling that 1667 01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:06,840 Speaker 1: if you rendered them on the page, they were heartbreaking 1668 01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:11,240 Speaker 1: and um, and their situations there was a kind of 1669 01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:15,080 Speaker 1: a feeling of an every man. And I know most 1670 01:31:15,240 --> 01:31:17,320 Speaker 1: people really object to that, but but one of the 1671 01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:19,559 Speaker 1: lead characters in there is like, it's like, really, but 1672 01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:21,720 Speaker 1: for the grace of God, there go you or I 1673 01:31:21,920 --> 01:31:25,960 Speaker 1: come on, you know, and uh. And so that some 1674 01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:29,040 Speaker 1: of them are years ago predator hunters for the environment. 1675 01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:31,720 Speaker 1: I did one was a coyote Derby and Mars in Idaho, 1676 01:31:32,320 --> 01:31:38,400 Speaker 1: and dude, the opening of that is pretty much a gimme, right, guy, 1677 01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:42,440 Speaker 1: And they're like, it's super excited about winning this Cody Derby, 1678 01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:44,800 Speaker 1: you know, and I knew that the readers would both 1679 01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:49,000 Speaker 1: be repulsed by the Cody Derby idea or drawn to it. 1680 01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:51,160 Speaker 1: And I tried to go like, well, this is really 1681 01:31:51,160 --> 01:31:53,200 Speaker 1: just what it is. You can you can be whatever 1682 01:31:53,240 --> 01:31:56,400 Speaker 1: you want. My story will allow you to be repulsed 1683 01:31:56,800 --> 01:32:03,400 Speaker 1: or energized. It doesn't matter. Here's what happened. It's so fun. Yeah, 1684 01:32:03,600 --> 01:32:06,519 Speaker 1: it's it's as as a like you're creating that, like 1685 01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:08,920 Speaker 1: I said, rendering that person onto the page and running 1686 01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:11,720 Speaker 1: their character. And that stuff also stresses me out a 1687 01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:14,439 Speaker 1: little bit too, because you do that with someone you know, 1688 01:32:14,640 --> 01:32:16,800 Speaker 1: you can do it at a deeper level. When you 1689 01:32:16,960 --> 01:32:19,400 Speaker 1: do that with someone you don't know, you end up 1690 01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:22,080 Speaker 1: you end up with this character, especially someone like said 1691 01:32:22,120 --> 01:32:25,519 Speaker 1: that eccentric or or is in a certain situation that 1692 01:32:25,600 --> 01:32:28,960 Speaker 1: kind of brings their character to the fore you end 1693 01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:32,320 Speaker 1: up with this character of them. And and a lot 1694 01:32:32,320 --> 01:32:34,280 Speaker 1: of times I've I've written about people and then had 1695 01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:36,599 Speaker 1: them right to me. I was unhappy with the way 1696 01:32:36,640 --> 01:32:39,040 Speaker 1: you characterize me, but I realized that nothing that you 1697 01:32:39,080 --> 01:32:43,360 Speaker 1: said was untrue, and so kind of rendering them on 1698 01:32:43,400 --> 01:32:44,840 Speaker 1: the page in a way that kind of gives them 1699 01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:46,960 Speaker 1: some self realization as to what they're doing. Right. It 1700 01:32:47,000 --> 01:32:50,280 Speaker 1: all depends on any the person he is to that. Um, 1701 01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:51,720 Speaker 1: I had a guy right me one day and I 1702 01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:54,000 Speaker 1: just don't talk like that. That's not how I talk. 1703 01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:56,800 Speaker 1: And I was like, well, it kind of is, you know, 1704 01:32:57,240 --> 01:33:00,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it kind of is. But yeah, you're always 1705 01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:02,960 Speaker 1: taking a risk. And that's the other reason you want 1706 01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:07,200 Speaker 1: to be empathic or you know, empathetic. Um, even if 1707 01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:11,360 Speaker 1: even if somebody is a very bad person it, um, 1708 01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:15,040 Speaker 1: you got to be able to bring humanity to it, 1709 01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:18,320 Speaker 1: because it's real, it's true. Well that's beauty. If you 1710 01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:20,479 Speaker 1: read like if you read like Jim Harrison, or if 1711 01:33:20,479 --> 01:33:23,439 Speaker 1: you read like Cormac McCarthy, folks like that that are 1712 01:33:23,479 --> 01:33:26,280 Speaker 1: just masters. Yeah. I put you in there as well 1713 01:33:26,320 --> 01:33:30,160 Speaker 1: as like John Lee Anderson's Peace in the New Yorker 1714 01:33:30,200 --> 01:33:35,559 Speaker 1: about um uh Bolsonaro in Brazil. It's it's incredible. And 1715 01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:39,720 Speaker 1: Bolsonaro is a pretty unpleasant character. Yeah, you know, he 1716 01:33:39,720 --> 01:33:42,719 Speaker 1: wants to kill people and he's like he's and and 1717 01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:45,960 Speaker 1: John Lee Anderson never that never leaves the story, but 1718 01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:49,559 Speaker 1: you sort of understand Bolsonaro as a person. Yeah, pretty 1719 01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:52,800 Speaker 1: pretty good high level stuff. Well, and that's what we 1720 01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:55,640 Speaker 1: run into here is that you know, in the in 1721 01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:58,519 Speaker 1: the digital platform, we most people are reading things on 1722 01:33:58,560 --> 01:34:01,360 Speaker 1: their phones now and this art form kind of is 1723 01:34:01,479 --> 01:34:06,160 Speaker 1: lost now lost and only that platform. People still read books, 1724 01:34:06,160 --> 01:34:10,160 Speaker 1: people still take things, people go. You know, people are 1725 01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:12,479 Speaker 1: being driven. I think back to that, you know, it's 1726 01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:15,040 Speaker 1: it's start to it's starting to think. Do you do 1727 01:34:15,080 --> 01:34:19,200 Speaker 1: you feel specifically in hunting and fishing, do you feel 1728 01:34:19,200 --> 01:34:22,680 Speaker 1: like the communication with the entrance of social media and 1729 01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:25,280 Speaker 1: different different ways to take in hunting and fishing information, 1730 01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:28,360 Speaker 1: do you think we're also kind of headed back towards 1731 01:34:28,800 --> 01:34:32,160 Speaker 1: long form? I think it um. I think there was 1732 01:34:32,200 --> 01:34:35,479 Speaker 1: an experiment in the Twitter form or the or the 1733 01:34:35,479 --> 01:34:40,880 Speaker 1: fifty characters or the um exploding whatever, and it didn't 1734 01:34:40,880 --> 01:34:45,240 Speaker 1: really take. And so we're actually about where we've always been, 1735 01:34:45,280 --> 01:34:48,559 Speaker 1: where people love good stories. Yeah, you know, I think 1736 01:34:48,560 --> 01:34:50,240 Speaker 1: it's like you said, it's it's good content. It's a 1737 01:34:50,280 --> 01:34:54,080 Speaker 1: good content and people will be always be driven to that. 1738 01:34:54,280 --> 01:34:58,760 Speaker 1: And it ebbs and flows and that when when you 1739 01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:03,920 Speaker 1: present life in these short snippets, people desire the longer more. 1740 01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:06,400 Speaker 1: The thing is is we we lost the ability to 1741 01:35:06,479 --> 01:35:09,920 Speaker 1: pay people enough to devote the time to give you 1742 01:35:10,000 --> 01:35:14,120 Speaker 1: the great long form, and that is that's an ungoing problem. 1743 01:35:14,880 --> 01:35:18,400 Speaker 1: Passion is not enough. It is not you got to 1744 01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:20,759 Speaker 1: be able to go out to dinner with the wife 1745 01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:24,559 Speaker 1: and kids on the pay check. Passion for a writer 1746 01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:28,280 Speaker 1: or a painter, it's not enough. Yeah, I mean we' 1747 01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:31,200 Speaker 1: we get some would be interesting for those that are 1748 01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:34,400 Speaker 1: listening that are in this camp. I would say weekly 1749 01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:36,599 Speaker 1: I get I'm sure other folks that are a company 1750 01:35:36,600 --> 01:35:38,479 Speaker 1: here and mediat or get it more than I do. 1751 01:35:38,560 --> 01:35:41,000 Speaker 1: But I want to be a writer. I want to 1752 01:35:41,040 --> 01:35:44,920 Speaker 1: be a communicator. I want to be this What what 1753 01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:47,720 Speaker 1: do you do? I always struggle with that answer. It's 1754 01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:50,679 Speaker 1: always different. But what do you tell like a young 1755 01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:54,879 Speaker 1: writer who it's they're they're stepping into a different landscape 1756 01:35:54,880 --> 01:35:58,920 Speaker 1: than you stepped into, and probably a more desolate landscape 1757 01:35:59,160 --> 01:36:02,400 Speaker 1: for money for money, but but an incredibly target rich 1758 01:36:02,479 --> 01:36:06,840 Speaker 1: landscape for opportunities to to write well about something. So 1759 01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:09,080 Speaker 1: that goes back to the passion. Passion for is not 1760 01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:11,679 Speaker 1: gonna be enough. But I always I do tell people, 1761 01:36:11,720 --> 01:36:14,000 Speaker 1: I say, you come up with a story where you 1762 01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:18,559 Speaker 1: go holy ship, I can't believe this right or it's 1763 01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:20,880 Speaker 1: the very same story that you was telling a bar. 1764 01:36:21,240 --> 01:36:24,400 Speaker 1: You go, you're not gonna believe what just happened, dude. 1765 01:36:25,280 --> 01:36:29,599 Speaker 1: And then then you make that into a pitch that 1766 01:36:29,680 --> 01:36:32,360 Speaker 1: proves that you can, that you can write that, than 1767 01:36:32,520 --> 01:36:35,360 Speaker 1: editor is not gonna have to break his brain trying 1768 01:36:35,360 --> 01:36:38,760 Speaker 1: to fix it. Um. And and then start pitching that 1769 01:36:38,800 --> 01:36:43,200 Speaker 1: to like the any any anybody like like uh websites 1770 01:36:43,760 --> 01:36:47,639 Speaker 1: who need content and those those marriages work. You know. 1771 01:36:47,920 --> 01:36:49,760 Speaker 1: That's a good thing. One of the many good things 1772 01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:52,000 Speaker 1: about social media that you can you can put yourself 1773 01:36:52,040 --> 01:36:54,960 Speaker 1: out there and you can find way more people that 1774 01:36:55,040 --> 01:36:57,640 Speaker 1: might that have a say, um, obvious seeing by this 1775 01:36:57,680 --> 01:37:01,680 Speaker 1: guy Sean Parrot because this northern New US up in Minnesota, 1776 01:37:02,360 --> 01:37:05,320 Speaker 1: and he really a great writer and thinker and stuff 1777 01:37:05,360 --> 01:37:07,720 Speaker 1: like that, and he, you know, he needs somebody who 1778 01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:11,880 Speaker 1: can tell a great bear hunting story or ice fishing story. Yeah, 1779 01:37:11,880 --> 01:37:14,000 Speaker 1: and you could be him and you could find him, 1780 01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:16,479 Speaker 1: which I couldn't do when I started out. Yeah, or 1781 01:37:16,560 --> 01:37:19,120 Speaker 1: be him, right. I try to remember, when I first 1782 01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:21,280 Speaker 1: started out, I wanted to be out the writer. There 1783 01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:23,519 Speaker 1: was like an outdoor right school about the writing. I 1784 01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:27,040 Speaker 1: must have just googled school about the writing. I thought whatever. 1785 01:37:27,479 --> 01:37:29,600 Speaker 1: And there was a guy in Canada who had a 1786 01:37:29,600 --> 01:37:31,519 Speaker 1: school of out there. I don't remember the guy's name 1787 01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:33,760 Speaker 1: or like what the actual school was, but he was 1788 01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:35,800 Speaker 1: in Canada, I remember that. And I must have been 1789 01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:41,120 Speaker 1: maybe thirteen or fourteen, and I wrote this really when 1790 01:37:41,120 --> 01:37:43,679 Speaker 1: I thought it wasn't pactful piece about killing my first year. 1791 01:37:43,840 --> 01:37:45,240 Speaker 1: I wish you could find that. I don't know where 1792 01:37:45,280 --> 01:37:48,640 Speaker 1: that is. But he wrote back to me and he 1793 01:37:48,760 --> 01:37:53,719 Speaker 1: just said, you just like you're into your own words 1794 01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:56,519 Speaker 1: too much, like this flowery because to me it was 1795 01:37:56,560 --> 01:37:59,840 Speaker 1: like I had to be so impactful with the word, 1796 01:38:00,560 --> 01:38:02,960 Speaker 1: the meaning of the words kind of fell apart, and 1797 01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:04,680 Speaker 1: so he gave me ants and before you learned the 1798 01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:07,240 Speaker 1: walks right, Yeah, yeah, I thought, well, I saw other 1799 01:38:07,320 --> 01:38:10,439 Speaker 1: people being able to articulate the world in such a 1800 01:38:10,439 --> 01:38:11,720 Speaker 1: way that I like, that's what I want to be. 1801 01:38:11,880 --> 01:38:14,000 Speaker 1: But I never stopped to think like I gotta go 1802 01:38:14,040 --> 01:38:16,479 Speaker 1: through some steps to get to So that was and 1803 01:38:16,520 --> 01:38:18,519 Speaker 1: I never paid the guy for any class or anything, 1804 01:38:18,520 --> 01:38:20,640 Speaker 1: but that's what he gave me, that advice, and that 1805 01:38:20,760 --> 01:38:24,920 Speaker 1: stuck to me to this day. Remember um uh like 1806 01:38:25,120 --> 01:38:28,559 Speaker 1: uh Harry Cruz, he was a Southern writer. He wrote 1807 01:38:28,560 --> 01:38:30,880 Speaker 1: it He wrote a famous book called The Childhood, which 1808 01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:33,160 Speaker 1: was he just died not too long ago. He was 1809 01:38:33,240 --> 01:38:36,479 Speaker 1: he was a really really outlandish person and novelists and stuff, 1810 01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:38,320 Speaker 1: and he just said, let's face at the end of 1811 01:38:38,320 --> 01:38:40,479 Speaker 1: the not at the end of the day, said, let's 1812 01:38:40,479 --> 01:38:43,360 Speaker 1: face it. The best stories in the world. He loves 1813 01:38:43,360 --> 01:38:50,559 Speaker 1: Shakespeare are comprised of words like brick. And he used 1814 01:38:50,560 --> 01:38:53,080 Speaker 1: to say, you know, he loves sports because he said 1815 01:38:53,080 --> 01:38:56,000 Speaker 1: the world was shot through with this bs. He said, 1816 01:38:56,040 --> 01:38:58,439 Speaker 1: I got a bench and I got three hundred pounds. 1817 01:38:58,760 --> 01:39:00,960 Speaker 1: You tell me you can bench has three hundred pounds 1818 01:39:01,439 --> 01:39:03,760 Speaker 1: over and try it out. Yeah, And he said that 1819 01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:06,439 Speaker 1: writing was was very much like that. Either you could 1820 01:39:06,439 --> 01:39:09,400 Speaker 1: do it or you can't. It's pretty obvious. And and 1821 01:39:09,680 --> 01:39:13,960 Speaker 1: like the thing I took away was it's it's about brick. Yeah, 1822 01:39:14,200 --> 01:39:18,160 Speaker 1: you know it's yeah, it's easier to take the undane 1823 01:39:18,360 --> 01:39:22,240 Speaker 1: and and give it reality somebody then go for you know, 1824 01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:25,479 Speaker 1: I mean, I love that fancy poetry like Wordsworth and stuff, 1825 01:39:25,880 --> 01:39:28,280 Speaker 1: and it translates. But he couldn't think how hard it 1826 01:39:28,360 --> 01:39:30,760 Speaker 1: was to do that. I know, yeah, I was gonna 1827 01:39:30,760 --> 01:39:32,760 Speaker 1: be an English lit major at some point that I 1828 01:39:32,760 --> 01:39:35,400 Speaker 1: think I figured out that that that's not the type 1829 01:39:35,400 --> 01:39:38,519 Speaker 1: of communicator that I would would become. But you would 1830 01:39:38,520 --> 01:39:42,479 Speaker 1: get to read some cool stuff and visit some cool 1831 01:39:42,479 --> 01:39:45,600 Speaker 1: places probably in the end. But it's just such a 1832 01:39:46,439 --> 01:39:48,479 Speaker 1: I don't think there's enough that goes on around just 1833 01:39:48,520 --> 01:39:50,599 Speaker 1: the art of what what the written word is because 1834 01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:53,800 Speaker 1: so many, like you said, because the outlet for communication 1835 01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:58,520 Speaker 1: is so wide open right now, I mean wide open um, 1836 01:39:58,600 --> 01:40:00,880 Speaker 1: and there's some terrible writing out there. I mean just 1837 01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:04,200 Speaker 1: we we receive a lot of it here, you know, 1838 01:40:04,240 --> 01:40:07,240 Speaker 1: and you just and you're just you just think, like 1839 01:40:08,520 --> 01:40:11,519 Speaker 1: because our world is, you know, the we're inundated with 1840 01:40:11,560 --> 01:40:13,720 Speaker 1: words and pictures all the time. They are come from 1841 01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:16,920 Speaker 1: all types of sources because the world has opened and 1842 01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:19,479 Speaker 1: the way that it does, it's it's overload. And it 1843 01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:22,320 Speaker 1: used to be that there were trusted sources and those 1844 01:40:22,320 --> 01:40:25,280 Speaker 1: folks were trusted to print the words on a piece 1845 01:40:25,320 --> 01:40:28,080 Speaker 1: of paper, print the pictures and be accountable for those 1846 01:40:28,120 --> 01:40:31,320 Speaker 1: words and those pictures. Same thing with news. And now 1847 01:40:31,640 --> 01:40:34,439 Speaker 1: we've kind of we've opened up in Indoora's box and 1848 01:40:34,479 --> 01:40:37,280 Speaker 1: where we're seeing. But but like you said, but for 1849 01:40:37,320 --> 01:40:40,360 Speaker 1: a young writer or a young communicator, if you have 1850 01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:43,240 Speaker 1: a message. And if you're good at your craft, you 1851 01:40:43,280 --> 01:40:45,519 Speaker 1: can become good at Yeah, you don't have to you 1852 01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:47,600 Speaker 1: don't have to be you don't have to wish and 1853 01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:50,320 Speaker 1: hope for some corporation to give you money to go 1854 01:40:50,360 --> 01:40:53,320 Speaker 1: and put your words out therekeepers are gone, The gatekeepers 1855 01:40:53,320 --> 01:40:55,880 Speaker 1: are gone. And that's what podcasts have also becomes. It's 1856 01:40:55,920 --> 01:40:59,200 Speaker 1: like if you have good ideas and you're willing to talk, 1857 01:40:59,439 --> 01:41:02,439 Speaker 1: you know, ursten people folks that are willing to talk 1858 01:41:02,479 --> 01:41:05,479 Speaker 1: to you. I actually think that the democratization of this 1859 01:41:05,520 --> 01:41:09,559 Speaker 1: whole thing, it doesn't bother me at all. I think 1860 01:41:09,560 --> 01:41:11,960 Speaker 1: it is. I can see why I bothers some people. 1861 01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:15,599 Speaker 1: I think, well, I think as a society will probably 1862 01:41:15,640 --> 01:41:17,559 Speaker 1: come to a good place eventually. Right now, we're just 1863 01:41:17,560 --> 01:41:21,000 Speaker 1: like baby deer Wen. We just funny that those do 1864 01:41:21,040 --> 01:41:23,640 Speaker 1: you know those troll farms over in the Ukraine or 1865 01:41:23,680 --> 01:41:26,760 Speaker 1: wherever they where they were, They were like bombard and 1866 01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:29,719 Speaker 1: Facebook with these things. And I was picturing of farm 1867 01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:32,360 Speaker 1: where they were growing trolls or something. Well that's what 1868 01:41:32,400 --> 01:41:34,400 Speaker 1: I didn't do. I love the word. Yeah, I got 1869 01:41:34,439 --> 01:41:37,719 Speaker 1: a troll farm down there, and uh, but they were 1870 01:41:37,760 --> 01:41:40,799 Speaker 1: they were like English, it's a second language at best, 1871 01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:43,280 Speaker 1: and they were still putting together like all these highly 1872 01:41:43,439 --> 01:41:47,559 Speaker 1: divisive like Twitter posts or blog posts or Facebook post 1873 01:41:48,160 --> 01:41:50,280 Speaker 1: and then bombard in our country with them right by 1874 01:41:50,280 --> 01:41:54,720 Speaker 1: the tunes of thousands. And they were completely ridiculous, and 1875 01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:57,960 Speaker 1: yet a certain number of people were like reading them 1876 01:41:58,000 --> 01:42:00,800 Speaker 1: and we're unable to realize, like this guy didn't really 1877 01:42:00,800 --> 01:42:04,360 Speaker 1: speak English. Why would he be writing about you know, 1878 01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:10,840 Speaker 1: guns or Black Lives Matter or Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump? Why? 1879 01:42:10,960 --> 01:42:13,519 Speaker 1: And but they didn't do that. So you there's you know, 1880 01:42:13,600 --> 01:42:16,679 Speaker 1: I mean, we the paper, but the global are always 1881 01:42:16,760 --> 01:42:18,960 Speaker 1: with us, like the Bible says about the poor, you know, 1882 01:42:19,040 --> 01:42:22,480 Speaker 1: the vulnerable. The globle were always with us. So segments 1883 01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:25,200 Speaker 1: how are a time where I try to you know, 1884 01:42:25,320 --> 01:42:29,519 Speaker 1: we've we've covered some rough grounds, some shaky one. We've 1885 01:42:29,520 --> 01:42:34,000 Speaker 1: been some shaky ground. Um. The first segments called hot spot, 1886 01:42:34,040 --> 01:42:35,799 Speaker 1: cool dude. And this is where I try to convince 1887 01:42:35,880 --> 01:42:38,960 Speaker 1: you to give all of the listeners of this podcast 1888 01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:42,479 Speaker 1: you're one of your hottest hunting spots. And this is 1889 01:42:42,479 --> 01:42:45,400 Speaker 1: gonna be in Montana. Now, most hunters won't give him up, right, 1890 01:42:46,320 --> 01:42:49,000 Speaker 1: So can I convince you to give somebody that there's 1891 01:42:49,240 --> 01:42:51,559 Speaker 1: those a few people listen to this, give them a 1892 01:42:52,240 --> 01:42:54,160 Speaker 1: hunting spot. I'm trying to think of where I could 1893 01:42:54,160 --> 01:42:57,160 Speaker 1: give them one where they'll never find it. You gotta 1894 01:42:57,160 --> 01:42:59,120 Speaker 1: give the exactly where it's at, though, you gotta. If 1895 01:42:59,120 --> 01:43:02,200 Speaker 1: you have launch, dude, dude, all the better. But um, 1896 01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:04,400 Speaker 1: our mutual friend Andrew McKee gave up a dove hunting 1897 01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:06,240 Speaker 1: spot in Montana. He was the only one thus far 1898 01:43:06,400 --> 01:43:09,240 Speaker 1: to even come close to saying yes. So you're welcome 1899 01:43:09,240 --> 01:43:12,719 Speaker 1: to tell me to funk off. Do you have anything 1900 01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:16,559 Speaker 1: that you want to give up? Um? That Johnson Peak 1901 01:43:16,640 --> 01:43:21,080 Speaker 1: area and the pilers. Yeah, that's not specific enough. He's 1902 01:43:21,120 --> 01:43:27,160 Speaker 1: pretty specific. What are you hunting there? Yeah? All right, 1903 01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:29,200 Speaker 1: And I hadn't been there in a long long time, 1904 01:43:29,240 --> 01:43:31,799 Speaker 1: so I'm not sure that, uh, that it's still valid. 1905 01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:36,040 Speaker 1: When's the last time you were there? Nineties, nineties, two thousand, 1906 01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:39,280 Speaker 1: probably so the hot spots twenty years ago. Ye, if 1907 01:43:39,280 --> 01:43:41,680 Speaker 1: I still out there, probably still out there. Think there 1908 01:43:41,600 --> 01:43:43,720 Speaker 1: are any wolves hanging around there? If you hit it 1909 01:43:43,760 --> 01:43:48,519 Speaker 1: at the right time, it's definitely. Uh, it's definitely a 1910 01:43:48,640 --> 01:43:52,400 Speaker 1: big storm after maath of a big storm kind of place. Yeah. 1911 01:43:52,439 --> 01:43:54,800 Speaker 1: How do you how do you handle your hunting spots? 1912 01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:56,479 Speaker 1: You hunt a lot of public land, Like how do 1913 01:43:56,520 --> 01:43:59,680 Speaker 1: you handle your hunting spots? Is there is there a 1914 01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:02,800 Speaker 1: rule to thumb for you as it's giving him away? 1915 01:44:02,840 --> 01:44:04,599 Speaker 1: You're talking about where you're at trying not to give 1916 01:44:04,640 --> 01:44:07,719 Speaker 1: him away. But um, some of them were very public, 1917 01:44:07,960 --> 01:44:11,280 Speaker 1: like on migration corridors for col l hunting, and so 1918 01:44:11,400 --> 01:44:14,040 Speaker 1: they're they're just there and there's other people gonna be there, 1919 01:44:14,280 --> 01:44:16,120 Speaker 1: and it's kind of like dove and you're waiting for 1920 01:44:16,160 --> 01:44:19,160 Speaker 1: him to bounce one at you. You know. Um, but 1921 01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:21,120 Speaker 1: if I ever come across the place. I used to 1922 01:44:21,160 --> 01:44:23,640 Speaker 1: have a few places in the Bitter Roots where I 1923 01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:26,519 Speaker 1: really kept them close to the vest, and I lost 1924 01:44:26,560 --> 01:44:29,479 Speaker 1: one when I had to have somebody helped me pack 1925 01:44:30,320 --> 01:44:32,679 Speaker 1: and he went back over and over to that spot 1926 01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:35,280 Speaker 1: and talked it up. And how do you feel about 1927 01:44:35,280 --> 01:44:39,599 Speaker 1: that guy? Um, we're no longer in contact. Yeah, that's 1928 01:44:39,640 --> 01:44:44,160 Speaker 1: generally the term. That's generally a word. Um that was rough. Well, 1929 01:44:44,439 --> 01:44:46,960 Speaker 1: I think that like as far as those rules go, 1930 01:44:47,200 --> 01:44:51,400 Speaker 1: if if you if somebody shows you a spot, there 1931 01:44:51,439 --> 01:44:54,280 Speaker 1: should be inherent permission right if you if he calls 1932 01:44:54,320 --> 01:44:56,320 Speaker 1: you up to say, hey, man, I'd like to go 1933 01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:59,280 Speaker 1: back there and take a buddy is that okay, Yeah, 1934 01:44:59,360 --> 01:45:01,640 Speaker 1: he's a he's yeah, that's great or no, Man, I 1935 01:45:01,680 --> 01:45:03,200 Speaker 1: just don't think you can take a bunch of people. 1936 01:45:04,160 --> 01:45:06,960 Speaker 1: You just can't take it, can't take you can't take. 1937 01:45:08,439 --> 01:45:12,240 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not the bad guy. Um. I think 1938 01:45:12,320 --> 01:45:14,080 Speaker 1: that's in generally how you have to handle it. But 1939 01:45:14,720 --> 01:45:17,840 Speaker 1: there's I mean stories around the here around Bozeman of 1940 01:45:17,960 --> 01:45:20,479 Speaker 1: guys getting you know, three or four buddies come help 1941 01:45:20,560 --> 01:45:22,479 Speaker 1: the pack out next time they're in there. There's trucks 1942 01:45:22,520 --> 01:45:25,000 Speaker 1: all over the place. It takes. It takes that and 1943 01:45:25,160 --> 01:45:27,400 Speaker 1: that pretty much. It wasn't trucks all over the place, 1944 01:45:27,439 --> 01:45:30,960 Speaker 1: but it was that that place was was small. And 1945 01:45:31,040 --> 01:45:33,080 Speaker 1: when he packed that out for me, he went right 1946 01:45:33,080 --> 01:45:38,080 Speaker 1: back like the next day. No, during the next boat season. Um, 1947 01:45:38,120 --> 01:45:41,120 Speaker 1: this was at the early Rifle and next year. But 1948 01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:46,240 Speaker 1: I couldn't. I mean he took it over. Yeah. I 1949 01:45:46,360 --> 01:45:48,559 Speaker 1: never talked to that guy. You never talked to that 1950 01:45:48,560 --> 01:45:51,519 Speaker 1: guy either. Another segment that we're doing around here is 1951 01:45:51,560 --> 01:45:53,599 Speaker 1: called damn near diets, where I'm trying to get everybody 1952 01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:56,280 Speaker 1: to tell me near death experiences, whether whether it's something 1953 01:45:56,320 --> 01:46:00,200 Speaker 1: that you had outside or something that someone told you got. 1954 01:46:00,280 --> 01:46:05,600 Speaker 1: What's the craziest near death experience outside well, there have 1955 01:46:05,680 --> 01:46:07,800 Speaker 1: been quite a few of them, but one of my 1956 01:46:08,040 --> 01:46:12,080 Speaker 1: my favorite because it ended up interesting, was we went back, 1957 01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:14,360 Speaker 1: my buddy and I. We went we were five, there 1958 01:46:14,360 --> 01:46:17,280 Speaker 1: were four people on this trip, and we hiked into 1959 01:46:17,600 --> 01:46:20,320 Speaker 1: El Capitan, which is in the Southern Bitter Roots, south 1960 01:46:20,360 --> 01:46:23,120 Speaker 1: of Miazoola, south of south of waist Up Derby Monte 1961 01:46:23,120 --> 01:46:27,160 Speaker 1: Down area, and um, my buddy and I were gonna 1962 01:46:27,240 --> 01:46:32,560 Speaker 1: climb the I think it was northwest ridge of El Capitan. 1963 01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:35,439 Speaker 1: And we got there. It's a really long hike. We 1964 01:46:35,560 --> 01:46:37,760 Speaker 1: got to the base in the cirque underneath it, and 1965 01:46:38,479 --> 01:46:41,479 Speaker 1: I don't know what we were doing or what we thought, 1966 01:46:41,560 --> 01:46:45,080 Speaker 1: but we hiked up there to check it out and 1967 01:46:45,320 --> 01:46:50,640 Speaker 1: we both immediately begin climbing it. And we this is 1968 01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:54,560 Speaker 1: after hiking for hours and hours and hours, and we 1969 01:46:54,800 --> 01:46:57,760 Speaker 1: climbed up. We got we did it, and we were 1970 01:46:57,880 --> 01:47:00,800 Speaker 1: up at the final pitch with neither one of us 1971 01:47:00,840 --> 01:47:04,759 Speaker 1: had ever done this before. And this like slate wiping 1972 01:47:04,880 --> 01:47:10,519 Speaker 1: thunderstorm with sleet and hail and lightning came from the west, 1973 01:47:10,760 --> 01:47:14,360 Speaker 1: which we couldn't see because the peak was between us 1974 01:47:14,400 --> 01:47:16,600 Speaker 1: and where we came from. And it pretty much just 1975 01:47:16,720 --> 01:47:21,639 Speaker 1: attacked us, and so we we sheltered up, and then 1976 01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:24,560 Speaker 1: we did the last pitch in this storm, and we 1977 01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:28,120 Speaker 1: got on top. I had been on top several times before, 1978 01:47:28,240 --> 01:47:32,040 Speaker 1: mostly in the snow, though, and it was an absolute 1979 01:47:32,120 --> 01:47:36,000 Speaker 1: white out and there was no way to figure out 1980 01:47:36,280 --> 01:47:40,439 Speaker 1: how to get down, and we started hiking off and 1981 01:47:40,600 --> 01:47:43,400 Speaker 1: the clouds came out for just a second. This was 1982 01:47:43,479 --> 01:47:46,560 Speaker 1: now almost dark. Why we did this, we don't. We 1983 01:47:46,640 --> 01:47:48,880 Speaker 1: still didn't know. We still don't know. Uh, And the 1984 01:47:48,960 --> 01:47:51,240 Speaker 1: clouds open stopped during the client to be like, hey, 1985 01:47:52,120 --> 01:47:54,519 Speaker 1: we shouldn't know. Well we didn't. We went really really 1986 01:47:54,600 --> 01:47:57,880 Speaker 1: into it, and uh, the clouds opened up just enough 1987 01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:00,000 Speaker 1: to see that we were going in the absolute opposit 1988 01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:03,680 Speaker 1: it wrong way on the top of her cap, and 1989 01:48:04,160 --> 01:48:08,680 Speaker 1: we found an overhang with a rat's nest in it, 1990 01:48:09,640 --> 01:48:12,240 Speaker 1: and we got under there. Now it was fully dark, 1991 01:48:13,000 --> 01:48:15,880 Speaker 1: and we set fire to that rats nest and we 1992 01:48:16,040 --> 01:48:18,400 Speaker 1: spent the night. I had a power bar. We divided 1993 01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:22,559 Speaker 1: and we weathered it and got up the next morning. 1994 01:48:22,600 --> 01:48:24,720 Speaker 1: It was still whited out. There was no way to see, 1995 01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:26,519 Speaker 1: but we picked our way down and we had to 1996 01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:29,519 Speaker 1: drive some pitons, which my buddy luckily had in a 1997 01:48:29,560 --> 01:48:33,679 Speaker 1: little bag, and we repelled down this shoulder of the peak, 1998 01:48:33,680 --> 01:48:36,160 Speaker 1: which we should never have had to do, and came 1999 01:48:36,200 --> 01:48:39,240 Speaker 1: back to camp. We were laughing, and uh, all the 2000 01:48:39,320 --> 01:48:41,760 Speaker 1: people there were just like they were pale as ghosts, right, 2001 01:48:41,800 --> 01:48:43,559 Speaker 1: they thought we were. I mean they saw that, they 2002 01:48:43,600 --> 01:48:47,080 Speaker 1: saw a little tiny figures, and then they saw the storm. 2003 01:48:48,240 --> 01:48:52,080 Speaker 1: And then nobody showed up. Nobody ever came back. Um, 2004 01:48:52,640 --> 01:48:55,360 Speaker 1: and they said one guy said, he said, I knew, 2005 01:48:55,560 --> 01:48:57,560 Speaker 1: He said, I thought y'all might make it, But I 2006 01:48:57,680 --> 01:49:01,360 Speaker 1: never thought y'all would walk into camp laughing your asses off. 2007 01:49:04,280 --> 01:49:06,679 Speaker 1: What was the most desperate moment, Like, did you guys 2008 01:49:06,720 --> 01:49:08,800 Speaker 1: ever feels we were going the wrong way? And it 2009 01:49:08,920 --> 01:49:12,519 Speaker 1: was actually it was it was like dark. Yeah, you know, 2010 01:49:12,640 --> 01:49:15,040 Speaker 1: we had lost track of time, and um we did 2011 01:49:15,160 --> 01:49:18,240 Speaker 1: find that overhang though, and it was it was very Uh. 2012 01:49:18,600 --> 01:49:21,599 Speaker 1: It was a beautiful series of events because it worked 2013 01:49:21,640 --> 01:49:24,600 Speaker 1: out and we would doze for a little bit and 2014 01:49:24,640 --> 01:49:26,800 Speaker 1: the fire would go out and somebody would go get 2015 01:49:26,880 --> 01:49:31,120 Speaker 1: this chromb Holtz little pieces of alpine vegetation and we 2016 01:49:31,360 --> 01:49:34,559 Speaker 1: will buck up. And you look back on that now, 2017 01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:37,559 Speaker 1: like how close you were to you know, Yeah, I'm 2018 01:49:37,600 --> 01:49:40,479 Speaker 1: glad we were on the last pitch. You know, the 2019 01:49:40,720 --> 01:49:44,479 Speaker 1: the ridge is not vertical enough to to rep repel 2020 01:49:44,600 --> 01:49:46,479 Speaker 1: the ridge all the way back down the way we 2021 01:49:46,560 --> 01:49:50,240 Speaker 1: had came would would be pretty dicey. You kind of 2022 01:49:50,320 --> 01:49:53,880 Speaker 1: have to summit and go off. It's funny when you 2023 01:49:54,000 --> 01:49:56,320 Speaker 1: like the revisionist history, like if I would have been 2024 01:49:57,120 --> 01:49:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, well, if we just come and got up 2025 01:49:59,320 --> 01:50:01,200 Speaker 1: and got up the next morning and done it early 2026 01:50:01,280 --> 01:50:03,760 Speaker 1: in the day before the big thunderstorms come about, have 2027 01:50:03,840 --> 01:50:10,160 Speaker 1: been really good. There's something about is this the dumb 2028 01:50:10,240 --> 01:50:12,840 Speaker 1: ship you do? Is a younger person outside that just 2029 01:50:13,080 --> 01:50:15,320 Speaker 1: informs the rest of it it does. We were grown. 2030 01:50:15,600 --> 01:50:18,080 Speaker 1: We were grown too. We knew what we knew better 2031 01:50:19,600 --> 01:50:22,920 Speaker 1: at least you would think. Least you think, well, we're 2032 01:50:22,960 --> 01:50:25,160 Speaker 1: glad you're around, and uh, thanks for coming all the 2033 01:50:25,200 --> 01:50:27,559 Speaker 1: way to Bozeman. You be enjoyed it, and you had 2034 01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:31,160 Speaker 1: you enjoyed it completely me too. We cover some rough ground, 2035 01:50:31,200 --> 01:50:33,280 Speaker 1: but we got it done, and all on top of 2036 01:50:33,360 --> 01:50:36,160 Speaker 1: a bear over all on top of the bear. Yeah. 2037 01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:39,040 Speaker 1: The podcast, the second podcast I've done with the bear. 2038 01:50:39,520 --> 01:50:41,639 Speaker 1: We have a bear rug. I was killed by Steve Rinella. 2039 01:50:42,200 --> 01:50:45,800 Speaker 1: The bear rug is, of course the sound dampener. It's 2040 01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:49,040 Speaker 1: working real well, he's working like a charm, just laying 2041 01:50:49,040 --> 01:50:51,400 Speaker 1: in there all right now. Thanks for sir. Enjoyed it, ma'am. 2042 01:50:52,600 --> 01:50:55,800 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on a row. That's it. 2043 01:50:56,000 --> 01:50:59,400 Speaker 1: That's all another episode in the books. Thanks to how 2044 01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:03,639 Speaker 1: thanks to Miles for coming through and joining me this week, 2045 01:51:03,720 --> 01:51:06,040 Speaker 1: and thanks to all of you of course for listening. 2046 01:51:06,240 --> 01:51:10,519 Speaker 1: I hopefull you're enjoying our new format. Three weeks in here. 2047 01:51:11,000 --> 01:51:14,120 Speaker 1: It's Turkey season. We're about to embark on our th 2048 01:51:14,479 --> 01:51:17,479 Speaker 1: HC Turkey Tour, and that tour is going to be 2049 01:51:17,560 --> 01:51:19,800 Speaker 1: centered around a bunch of states, but we're gonna be 2050 01:51:19,840 --> 01:51:24,120 Speaker 1: starting in South Dakota. Mark Kenyon will be joining us there. 2051 01:51:24,640 --> 01:51:28,439 Speaker 1: We're gonna be driving over to Idaho do the v 2052 01:51:28,560 --> 01:51:31,800 Speaker 1: h A Rendeview up to Oregon. Bryan Callahan will be 2053 01:51:31,840 --> 01:51:35,720 Speaker 1: joining us there and over back over to Montana. We'll 2054 01:51:35,720 --> 01:51:38,360 Speaker 1: be driving I think it's a thirty four miles thirty 2055 01:51:38,439 --> 01:51:42,200 Speaker 1: four hour to loop around the West to chase turkeys, 2056 01:51:42,200 --> 01:51:43,760 Speaker 1: and they'll probably be some other stops in there too, 2057 01:51:43,880 --> 01:51:46,600 Speaker 1: So stay tuned. Follow us on social app avenue oh 2058 01:51:46,720 --> 01:51:49,080 Speaker 1: B three oh one to track all that, and we'll 2059 01:51:49,120 --> 01:51:51,000 Speaker 1: be covering a lot of that in our opening segments 2060 01:51:51,400 --> 01:51:56,479 Speaker 1: of the podcast going forward, what else, what? Oh? Oh, 2061 01:51:56,760 --> 01:52:01,280 Speaker 1: something important, something very important. We are going to start 2062 01:52:02,680 --> 01:52:06,000 Speaker 1: an email address for the Hunting Collective. It's going to 2063 01:52:06,080 --> 01:52:09,240 Speaker 1: be t h C at the meat eater dot com. 2064 01:52:10,120 --> 01:52:12,960 Speaker 1: Let me repeat that, t h C at the meat 2065 01:52:12,960 --> 01:52:15,840 Speaker 1: Eater dot com and t h C of course stands 2066 01:52:15,880 --> 01:52:19,280 Speaker 1: for the Hunting Collective as always right us at th 2067 01:52:19,520 --> 01:52:22,920 Speaker 1: h C at the meat eator dot com. Send us 2068 01:52:22,960 --> 01:52:25,439 Speaker 1: audio files of you commenting on what you've heard on 2069 01:52:25,520 --> 01:52:28,200 Speaker 1: the show, asking questions, and we're going to play those 2070 01:52:28,240 --> 01:52:30,360 Speaker 1: at the end of every episode. At the end of 2071 01:52:30,439 --> 01:52:34,800 Speaker 1: every episode going forward, we're going to have what we'll 2072 01:52:34,880 --> 01:52:40,320 Speaker 1: call listener voicemails you check in, we play you on 2073 01:52:40,400 --> 01:52:43,719 Speaker 1: the podcast. Please keep it short, one to two minutes 2074 01:52:44,040 --> 01:52:47,439 Speaker 1: at most. Keep you concise. As you know. I can 2075 01:52:47,479 --> 01:52:49,439 Speaker 1: be vulgar, so I don't mind if you're vulgar, but 2076 01:52:49,520 --> 01:52:54,439 Speaker 1: just be appropriate and do it. Be fun, have fun 2077 01:52:54,520 --> 01:52:56,880 Speaker 1: with it, and we're gonna play those on the podcast 2078 01:52:57,320 --> 01:53:01,000 Speaker 1: when they come in, so listen to mostly for those 2079 01:53:01,080 --> 01:53:03,320 Speaker 1: in the future. It's a very important thing. Th h 2080 01:53:03,400 --> 01:53:07,320 Speaker 1: C at the Meat Eater. There come th HC at 2081 01:53:07,600 --> 01:53:12,240 Speaker 1: the meat eater dot com. Email us, let us know 2082 01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:14,560 Speaker 1: what you think. And with that we're gonna let you 2083 01:53:14,600 --> 01:53:19,439 Speaker 1: go this time once again with a little old number seven, 2084 01:53:20,240 --> 01:53:23,919 Speaker 1: see yeah in your eyes off. Thank you, Jack Daniels. 2085 01:53:24,000 --> 01:53:28,720 Speaker 1: Oh number seven Tennessee whiskey got me dragging heaven and 2086 01:53:29,040 --> 01:53:32,040 Speaker 1: h and just stopped. It looks good to me. They're 2087 01:53:32,080 --> 01:53:38,639 Speaker 1: gonna have to department to the farade, to the far 2088 01:53:38,760 --> 01:53:48,280 Speaker 1: red in Fardy d he