Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
Speaker 1: today's best minds. And according to analysts g Elliott Morris,
Speaker 1: Trump's net approval among people age eighteen to twenty nine
Speaker 1: has declined thirty five percentage points since November twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: We have such a great show for you today. The
Speaker 1: Lincoln Project's own Rick Wilson joins us to discuss Stephen
Speaker 1: Miller's continued efforts to cast Democrats as terrorists. Then we'll
Speaker 1: talk to Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy about how Democrats can
Speaker 1: fight back against the Trump administration.
Speaker 2: But first the news Somali.
Speaker 3: We know that Democrats always have an uphill battle when
Speaker 3: messaging because of the media environment these days. But it
Speaker 3: seems that Trump is facing more shut down blame. But
Speaker 3: it still seems way too close to me. In these
Speaker 3: polls about who gets blamed for.
Speaker 1: This, most Americans disapprove of how Republicans and Trump are
Speaker 1: handling the shn Thirty nine percentage of percent of Americans
Speaker 1: blamed Trump and Republicans for the for the shutdown. That's
Speaker 1: versus thirty percent, So that's actually it was a little
Speaker 1: bit better for Democrats when it started, half of Americans
Speaker 1: disapprove of how Trump is handling the shutdown. Here's a
Speaker 1: big problem for Republicans about this is like healthcare is
Speaker 1: an eighty twenty issue. Okay, So the majority of Democrats, Independents,
Speaker 1: and Republicans sport extending those enhanced tax credits that Democrats
Speaker 1: demand being included in the government funding. So that's an
Speaker 1: eighty twenty issue, right, ninety percent of Democrats, eighty percent
Speaker 1: of Republicans, eighty percent of Independence, sixty percent of Republicans.
Speaker 1: So there it is. People want those enhanced tax credits.
Speaker 1: They don't want to lose their health insurance again, even
Speaker 1: if you I think that that is sort of the
Speaker 1: most important aspect of this. Now, it's worth remembering there
Speaker 1: are Republicans. There were, like not insignificant number of Republicans
Speaker 1: have had quite a few in office who want this too,
Speaker 1: because they know that this will be a major inflationary
Speaker 1: pressure that will hurt voters before the midterms, that will
Speaker 1: maybe make them lose their seats. You have tariffs and
Speaker 1: then you have health insurance going up. You know, there's
Speaker 1: only so much inflation that the American people can take right, like,
Speaker 1: you know, your groceries are more expensive, your health insurance
Speaker 1: is more expensive. You elected the guy because he said
Speaker 1: he was going to make stuff less expensive. So I
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, I do think I think that
Speaker 1: extending these Obamacare subsidies is just good business. But it
Speaker 1: is interesting that both parties are getting a blame. In
Speaker 1: earlier polls, we saw that it was more Republicans getting
Speaker 1: the blame than Democrats. Usually the party in power gets
Speaker 1: blamed for the shutdown. It doesn't matter if start up
Speaker 1: the government this week. If this goes on for thirty
Speaker 1: five days and you have federal employees eating at food banks,
Speaker 1: that's going to be very different kind of thing. So
Speaker 1: we have to see sort of what this shutdown ends
Speaker 1: up looking like.
Speaker 3: So another thing we have to see what it looks
Speaker 3: like is Gavin Newsom is going to sue the Trump
Speaker 3: administration for sending California National Guard to Oregon.
Speaker 1: So in this episode of Fast Politics, you're going to
Speaker 1: hear my interview with Chris Murphy and what And I
Speaker 1: think Chris Murphy is really smart and one of the
Speaker 1: things he said in this interview was and that surprised me,
Speaker 1: and sometimes a lot of times a Democratic collected don't
Speaker 1: really surprise me. I'm sorry to tell you, but this
Speaker 1: I thought was really surprising and interesting, which is he
Speaker 1: said that he got a lot of faith from the
Speaker 1: fact that Newsom was planning to do this redistricting of
Speaker 1: the five seats, and he said it showed that you
Speaker 1: can push back against trump Ism. And so this makes
Speaker 1: me think of that Newsom is going to sue Trump
Speaker 1: for sending California National Guard troops to Oregon. We already
Speaker 1: saw that Trump had no right to federalize the Guard
Speaker 1: when it came to California. My guess is that this
Speaker 1: will also be deemed illegal. And I sort of point
Speaker 1: out again and again, and this is something that Pritzker
Speaker 1: said to in his public comments. They keep I think
Speaker 1: it's really important. This White House is out there with
Speaker 1: a press release as soon as humanly possible, and they
Speaker 1: are working it like for example, in this piece, it
Speaker 1: says zoom in President Trump exercised his lawful authority to
Speaker 1: protect federal assets and personnel in Portland following following violent riots.
Speaker 1: White House spokeswoman Abigail Jackson said in a statement to Axios,
Speaker 1: there are no violent riots right so that's fucking bullshit.
Speaker 1: And if you're going to use statements that have lies
Speaker 1: in them, should you be putting a verbatim statement like
Speaker 1: that in a new in any kind of news, Like,
Speaker 1: clearly that is not true, right. I think Newsom will win,
Speaker 1: And I think this is illegal, and I think that
Speaker 1: if you're axios, you should not put these statements that
Speaker 1: contain lies in them in your reporting.
Speaker 2: Maya.
Speaker 3: I think we're seeing here in some research from the
Speaker 3: Goop Maker Institute what we assumed would happen, which is
Speaker 3: when you ban abortions and make it very hard for
Speaker 3: women to have abortions, they have less abortions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now they have less abortions, But what's the
Speaker 1: second order effect? So much of trump Ism is a
Speaker 1: lot of like poorly thought out ideas, a lot and
Speaker 1: very little trying to figure out this second order effect
Speaker 1: when things happen. So I'll be curious, like who's having
Speaker 1: these babies? And what you know? Are these teenagers having babies?
Speaker 1: Because like when I was young, we had a teen
Speaker 1: pregnancy epidemic. We even had that because we had abortions,
Speaker 1: we had morning after pill, we had things. It was
Speaker 1: just a very different world and we didn't have a
Speaker 1: teen pregnancy epidemic the way we do now, or we
Speaker 1: may now. We don't know, so, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: I'll be curious to see the second order effects of this.
Speaker 1: For the first full In the first full year after
Speaker 1: the DABS decision, about one in three abortions in the
Speaker 1: South and one in twelve nationwide happened in Florida. Now
Speaker 1: Florida doesn't have abortions anymore, so they you know, so
Speaker 1: I don't know where people go. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: the end. It turns out maybe they don't and they
Speaker 1: have more children than they can't afford or care for.
Speaker 3: So, Molly, I find this case to be a really
Speaker 3: important flashpoint because it often shows which way the wind
Speaker 3: is blowing with how Trump pushes back. And what we're
Speaker 3: seeing now is Kilmar Brego Garcia may have been charged
Speaker 3: because of Trump administration's dendictiveness. A judge's founder.
Speaker 1: Everything we're going through is because of the Trump administration's vindictiveness.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we wouldn't have ice in Chicago,
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have this, we wouldn't have that the whole
Speaker 1: you know, when Trump kept saying like I'm gonna, you know,
Speaker 1: pay back my enemies and and you know, extract retribution.
Speaker 1: Everyone be like, no, you don't really mean that.
Speaker 2: He'd be like, yes, I do.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, he does, so uh. They so they were
Speaker 1: not going to return him. Remember they sent this guy,
Speaker 1: this poor guy, he's a Maryland guy. He was not
Speaker 1: in the country legally, but he did live in Maryland.
Speaker 1: They said, they deported him. Then they had to bring
Speaker 1: him back.
Speaker 2: Remember they had.
Speaker 1: All those people in that They had all those people
Speaker 1: in that jail. By the way, we still don't know
Speaker 1: where the out the Alligator Alcatraz people are, right, They're
Speaker 1: just somewhere else in the system. I mean. The thing
Speaker 1: is like, we know people are dying in this we know,
Speaker 1: but we don't really they know, like what the numbers are,
Speaker 1: but we certainly know. And I mean, because the mainstream
Speaker 1: media is so small now, there's just so much that
Speaker 1: we're missing. Like if we had the media we had
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, we every day would be horror stories.
Speaker 1: But so much of this is going on reported because
Speaker 1: people just don't have the they don't have the lawyers,
Speaker 1: they don't have the infrastructure, they don't have the things
Speaker 1: they need to do that report in Rick Wilson is
Speaker 1: the founder of the Lincoln Project and the host of
Speaker 1: the Enemy's List.
Speaker 2: Rick Wilson polydn fast.
Speaker 1: I'm going to read you a tweet. We're going to
Speaker 1: just start right with a tweet.
Speaker 2: You ready, I'm ready, strapdad, Ready to go.
Speaker 1: The core purpose of the organized terrorist attack on DHS
Speaker 1: what where is there an organized terrorist attack is to
Speaker 1: reverse to assault, and it's an assignation the twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four election mandate to expel millions of illegal aliens at
Speaker 1: biten a minute, Okay.
Speaker 2: Yes, look, this is another thing that Steven Miller cranked
Speaker 2: out in his goon cave somewhere in his house, where
Speaker 2: he gets this enormously baroque fantasy in his head that
Speaker 2: somehow anybody who opposes Donald Trump.
Speaker 4: On any dimension is a terrorist.
Speaker 2: Anyone who speaks against Donald Trump is a terrorist. Anyone
Speaker 2: who funds a Democratic candidate is a terrorist. The problem
Speaker 2: with this is that the people engaging in the terrorist acts,
Speaker 2: by and large in our streets are a bunch of
Speaker 2: massed goons who are now arresting and abusing US citizens,
Speaker 2: who are assaulting journalists and whatever the cause, killed.
Speaker 1: Two people right or one or two people have.
Speaker 2: Been whatever the cause that started the public opposition to them.
Speaker 2: It's because of Stephen Miller's desire to expel all the
Speaker 2: brown people from a America. Let's not lie about what
Speaker 2: it is. He is an eliminationist. He does not just
Speaker 2: want to get rid of illegals. I promise you it
Speaker 2: will not stop there. The next phase will be, well,
Speaker 2: these Mexicans aren't culturally like us. They're not real Americans.
Speaker 2: I mean, hence the whole bad Bunny attack. He's a
Speaker 2: Puerto Rican, He's not really an American.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, part of it is that, but I
Speaker 1: also think this is it. I agree Steven Miller, but
Speaker 1: I also think it's really important to just like talk
Speaker 1: about this for one second, which is they are doing
Speaker 1: all this messaging because they know it's not working. And
Speaker 1: I feel like what I think Pritzker said this thing
Speaker 1: last week that or last week a couple of days ago.
Speaker 1: Maybe it was like a day ago, but it feels
Speaker 1: like ten years. Pritzker said this thing where he said
Speaker 1: videotape everything, because everything, because I think he really did
Speaker 1: have this realization, which is like there was a moment
Speaker 1: when Donald Trump saw the little girl crying over her
Speaker 1: shoes when he was like, I'm a TV guy and
Speaker 1: this is not how I want my presidency to look.
Speaker 1: And Pritzker is in many ways trying to get that
Speaker 1: moment to Donald Trump. Agree, disagree, No, I agree.
Speaker 2: Look, Trump is a primarily visual thinker. He is a
Speaker 2: guy who sees the picture. He is a guy who
Speaker 2: sees what's on the TV. I mean, he's the Chauncey
Speaker 2: Gardner of our era, only evil. And because these pictures
Speaker 2: are increasingly not of ice arresting the imaginary, you know,
Speaker 2: terrorists of trendi Agua, but in fact abusing and assaulting
Speaker 2: and hitting and gassing women, not children, American citizens to
Speaker 2: the ground and kicking in the door of American citizens
Speaker 2: without a warrant. Yeah, and arresting elected officials who asked,
Speaker 2: just asked the question do you have a warrant? The
Speaker 2: Chicago alderman who was arrested the other day just asked,
Speaker 2: do you have a warrant? They said, you're under a rat.
Speaker 2: Do you have a warrant? We just want to know,
Speaker 2: do you have a warrant. There was no violence, there
Speaker 2: was no assault, there was no call to harm. For them,
Speaker 2: it was a simple question that every American citizen has
Speaker 2: a right when they are dealing with law enforcement at
Speaker 2: any level, do you have a warrant?
Speaker 1: But even non citizens have rights, like the whole idea.
Speaker 2: That yeah, well yeah, And I'm bifurcating this problem a
Speaker 2: little bit here because non citizens still have the right
Speaker 2: to do process under our constitution. Yes, I'm sorry if
Speaker 2: the Republicans today don't believe in that, but I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: That is hard black letter law in the Constitution. It
Speaker 2: is not a debatable matter that even non citizens have
Speaker 2: certain constitutional rights. They don't have every single protection that
Speaker 2: we do, but for due process they do. For interactions
Speaker 2: with the criminal justice system, including ICE and DHS they do.
Speaker 2: The declaration of a phone national emergency it does not cover,
Speaker 2: is not legally sufficient to give ICE the power to
Speaker 2: go and decide. Oh, a journalist asked me a question
Speaker 2: I didn't like. I'm going to knock the fuck out
Speaker 2: of them and hit him on and knock them to
Speaker 2: the ground. Oh. Someone someone was was in my way
Speaker 2: on a public sidewalk. I'm going to bear mace them.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 2: Look, there was one of these cases where the woman
Speaker 2: was armed. They shot her. I don't know the whole
Speaker 2: details of the story. None of this is an argument
Speaker 2: for violence against these ice guys, right, but there is
Speaker 2: an argument for accountability for them well.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what's so important about what Pritzker said.
Speaker 1: He said he didn't say, like he said, videotape it
Speaker 1: put it online.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 1: Let that, you know, let people see what's happening. And
Speaker 1: I think that really is, you know, be peaceful. But
Speaker 1: videotape didn't put it online. And I think I think
Speaker 1: that is this really the only way it's going to work.
Speaker 1: I you know, I keep thinking back back to when
Speaker 1: I was on a stage with this guy, Scott Jennings
Speaker 1: from MSNBC but from CNN, and we're sitting there and
Speaker 1: he's saying all this like really inflammatory stuff, like on
Speaker 1: climate change. He says, we're in war with China and
Speaker 1: that's why we have to build lots of power plans
Speaker 1: so we can win the AI war. And I just wonder,
Speaker 1: so much of this ethos of trump Ism is really
Speaker 1: just like getting people upset. And I just think at
Speaker 1: some point the American people, don't you think they reject this?
Speaker 4: No, sadly I don't. Here's why.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the American people broadly have already rejected Trump. Two
Speaker 2: thirds of the American people for our Mogel listeners, I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: but these are math concepts you have to get used to.
Speaker 2: Two thirds of the American people do not want these rates, right,
Speaker 2: they oppose it. Donald Trump is eighteen to twenty points
Speaker 2: underwater on every economic cluster, sure, and he's the immigration
Speaker 2: He's ten to fifteen points underwater on immigration. Nothing he
Speaker 2: is doing that he claimed he would be good at doing.
Speaker 2: He is good at doing.
Speaker 1: And I think, will you talk about immigration for a minute,
Speaker 1: because that was the one where he was okay, like
Speaker 1: talk to about.
Speaker 2: That was his final That was the sort of final
Speaker 2: boss of Trump, right right. He always was believed to be,
Speaker 2: even by some more conservative Democrats, the right guy to
Speaker 2: seal the border and stop illegal alien crime and all.
Speaker 4: The themes they used.
Speaker 2: Now those things are real issues. By the way, there
Speaker 2: are people here from other countries who commit terrible crimes,
Speaker 2: and you know what, they should be deported, or they
Speaker 2: should be or they should be tried and put in prison.
Speaker 2: Either way, I'm fine, But the focus of what they've
Speaker 2: done is not on lawbreakers. It's on people who just work.
Speaker 2: Gardeners and nurses and home health care, aids and farmers
Speaker 2: and constructions. So this idea that that immigration was going
Speaker 2: to be Trump's like main thing, was predicated on, Oh,
Speaker 2: every day we'll catch a human trafficker. Every day, will
Speaker 2: get a murderer, every day, We'll get ten thousand drug
Speaker 2: dealers from trendy Arragua. Those people are gone already, but
Speaker 2: I supported a lot of them.
Speaker 1: Right, But I also think it is important to realize
Speaker 1: that now that Trump is president, immigration, just like regular immigration,
Speaker 1: is as popular as it's ever been.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the stupidity level.
Speaker 1: Do you know what the polling on that is.
Speaker 4: I'm going to dig it up for you right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the stupidity level of this.
Speaker 1: The point is we don't need to know the exact number,
Speaker 1: But the point is that Donald Trump has done more
Speaker 1: for immigration than Democrats. Legal immigration much more popular than
Speaker 1: Democrats could have ever.
Speaker 2: Right, Donald Trump ended up causing so much damage throughout
Speaker 2: the economy that now the public polling is much more
Speaker 2: favorable to a legal immigration structure and system than it
Speaker 2: was even when Joe was present. And what Trump has done,
Speaker 2: I think he's actually weirdly done a service to the
Speaker 2: immigration debate because when the imaginary debate is they're all criminals.
Speaker 2: They're all from third world hell holes here to steal
Speaker 2: your wife, beat your dog and cat, you know, and
Speaker 2: burn your community down and put a taco truck on
Speaker 2: every corner. It's easier for Fox and for the MAGA
Speaker 2: infrastructure to demagogue this thing and go crazy on it.
Speaker 2: Right when it's Wan the gardener, or Rosa the home
Speaker 2: healthcare nurse or Carlos the rufer, it becomes a lot
Speaker 2: more difficult to make this case. And the and the
Speaker 2: majority of the people that they are deporting, the vast, vast,
Speaker 2: vast vast majority, something like ninety five percent of them
Speaker 2: are not hardened criminals, are not in MS thirteen are
Speaker 2: not in trende is a. It is a deminimous number.
Speaker 2: And they they've had now nine months to do this.
Speaker 2: They've had nine months. Are you telling me that this
Speaker 2: panopticon government, with all the data of Palenteer and everybody else,
Speaker 2: can't round up the bad guys in nine months?
Speaker 1: But I also think the probably the reason why they're
Speaker 1: having so much trouble making these quotas is because there
Speaker 1: aren't enough people like they're you know, they have this idea,
Speaker 1: there's twenty million illegal quote unquote, but it's not, and
Speaker 1: that's why there'd be so much, right find it?
Speaker 2: Wait is it's like it's like yeah, okay, it's like this.
Speaker 2: It's like those things when the Russians used to say,
Speaker 2: like the beat harvest will be fifty thousand tons, right,
Speaker 2: they're only growing like five thousand tons of beats or
Speaker 2: whatever the number was.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, it is with Trump really, I mean the
Speaker 1: thing with Trump that you really do see and he's
Speaker 1: got and he started doing this with numbers too, you know,
Speaker 1: like they they're writing as checks for ten trillion.
Speaker 2: Dollars, seventeen trillion dollars. It's been so far, I.
Speaker 1: Mean it is. But the thing that with this shutdown,
Speaker 1: like the larger question is who's running the show, because
Speaker 1: like clear Russ Vaught and Steven Miller like running the
Speaker 1: show outsourcing going on this.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you what I'm what I'm given to
Speaker 2: understand by people around the Trump orbit right now, Steven
Speaker 2: Miller and Russ Vaught and JD. Vance have formed a
Speaker 2: sort of loose governing alliance inside the White House. Susie
Speaker 2: Wiles is checked out pretty much. She's in the background now.
Speaker 2: She does the administrative stuff, not the strategic stuff. She's
Speaker 2: not in the room for the big strategic plays anymore.
Speaker 2: She's she's a smaller character than she was, and she
Speaker 2: was the one nor me, me that everybody was like, oh,
Speaker 2: thank god, Susie Wiles is there. It's grown up in
Speaker 2: the room. It's now Miller and Miller's hold over Trump
Speaker 2: is very simple. He says to Trump every day, Well,
Speaker 2: the base wants us to do this. The base wants
Speaker 2: you to do that. If you don't do this, the
Speaker 2: bass will be angry with you. Donald, right, And and
Speaker 2: so you see that that Vaught, Miller, Vance and Vance
Speaker 2: is doing this because he's trying to get that jump
Speaker 2: on twenty twenty eight, right, that that coordinated little group
Speaker 2: is pushing forward and trying to make the immigration stuff
Speaker 2: as hot as they can, as ugly as they can,
Speaker 2: as as pressing as they can as an issue. I
Speaker 2: don't think that it's working. The numbers are not great.
Speaker 2: And the other part of this thing is, you know
Speaker 2: Trump's inability to stay focused on anything for very long. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it always he always drifts off to something else. Now
Speaker 2: he wants to invade Iraq or Iran. Now I wanted
Speaker 2: to go back to Afghanistan. Now I wants to New Nicaragua,
Speaker 2: Venezuela or whatever it is. This, yeah, all of it.
Speaker 2: If he was every day out there messaging from the podium, right,
Speaker 2: might be a different case. But I don't think he
Speaker 2: can do that anymore. I don't think he has the
Speaker 2: cognitive ability to do that these days. I think I
Speaker 2: think he's in a it's sort of a quicksand right
Speaker 2: now when it comes to that.
Speaker 1: So some of this stuff, I mean, he did some speeches,
Speaker 1: he talked today, and he talked, he did a helicopter
Speaker 1: spray and he definitely was not you know, right, I.
Speaker 4: Haven't seen that.
Speaker 2: I haven't seen the footage of that yet, but I
Speaker 2: I look his decline. I know we've been saying this
Speaker 2: for a while. It is not subtle anymore. It's much
Speaker 2: harder to pretend that he is not. I mean that
Speaker 2: the jd Vance thing that somebody around Trump World literally
Speaker 2: said to me, it's legacy.
Speaker 4: Planning right now.
Speaker 2: They don't want to get caught short if Trump dies
Speaker 2: one morning, you know, on his second filet of fish
Speaker 2: and JD.
Speaker 4: Vance has to step up. They don't want to be short.
Speaker 2: So that's why vances up doing all this populous raw
Speaker 2: raw uglie bullshit.
Speaker 1: I mean, Vance is a he is a uniquely terrible politician,
Speaker 1: so so bad it will be a fascinating I mean
Speaker 1: he really is, like he is like Stephen Miller. I
Speaker 1: mean he just it's like, why is this person screaming
Speaker 1: at me?
Speaker 2: And yeah, and and and look. And the worst part
Speaker 2: of it is with Stephen Miller, you know, he's psychotic.
Speaker 2: You know, there's just some evil brewing in the heart
Speaker 2: of Stephen Miller. With Vance, it's just ambition, which to
Speaker 2: my mind makes it much less forgivable.
Speaker 1: I remember saying that Advance was never Trump.
Speaker 2: Was JD. Vance used to be on all of our
Speaker 2: email chains back in the early days of never Trump.
Speaker 1: Fuck that Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: jad Vance found that there was no place in the
Speaker 1: Republican Party for never Drump.
Speaker 2: And the obvious solution is to leave the party. That that,
Speaker 2: But apparently, you know, JD was never quite you know,
Speaker 2: structured enough in his moral thinking to get the fuck out.
Speaker 1: This was much easier.
Speaker 2: I Mean, the.
Speaker 1: Secret about trump Ism is that if you just are loyal,
Speaker 1: like that's all you need. You don't have to be smart.
Speaker 1: You don't have to be cool, you just have to
Speaker 1: be loyal.
Speaker 2: Look, I think I think you were seeing As like
Speaker 2: to call it. This is the early stages of the
Speaker 2: Hunger Games of twenty twenty eight. These people are going
Speaker 2: to rip each other to shreds. Right now. You're seeing
Speaker 2: in the Mugga Influencer class them ripping each other to shreds,
Speaker 2: like and who oh, Laura Luomers after Tucker Carlson.
Speaker 4: Now you know.
Speaker 1: She's not because he's.
Speaker 2: Trson, you know all the you know she's a and
Speaker 2: you know you've got you've got all these different people
Speaker 2: racing around trying to be the one racing around trying
Speaker 2: to be like the person covering.
Speaker 4: Antifa and all that of their garbage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Benny Johnson, armed up, are tooled up in in
Speaker 2: border patrol, is level four, sappy plates on his on
Speaker 2: his load bearing vest, running around Chicago now like he's
Speaker 2: under gunfire.
Speaker 4: The fuck out of here.
Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, what do you think you know? Jesse Oas says.
Speaker 1: This smart thing he says, which is like the worst
Speaker 1: kind of podcasting is asking someone to predict the future.
Speaker 2: But well, about twenty billion years from now, the sun
Speaker 2: will begin to cool.
Speaker 1: But I mean, do you think like when you think
Speaker 1: about Trump right now and you think about like it,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about where we are in this admin versus
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to sort of think of like we're
Speaker 1: you know, they're trying. They're doing a lot of really
Speaker 1: scary stuff. They're moving really fast and breaking things. But
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel it just feel it still feels like
Speaker 1: the American people. I mean, it doesn't feel as scary
Speaker 1: as it did to me six months ago.
Speaker 2: He does not have a mandate. Yeah, he does not
Speaker 2: have the mandate of the people. They do not like him,
Speaker 2: They do not like what he's doing. They assess him
Speaker 2: on the most important single valance to voters, the economy,
Speaker 2: as a complete and utter train wreck, failure, fuck up.
Speaker 2: He is the worst president on the economy in this
Speaker 2: country that anyone, including his own partisans, could have conceived.
Speaker 2: All the things he claimed that Joe Biden was screwing
Speaker 2: up on, he has made so much worse. He has
Speaker 2: done such a poor job on. He has caused worse inflation,
Speaker 2: He has caused worse job loss. And it wasn't because
Speaker 2: of something that Biden did it where choice. It was
Speaker 2: because of choice as Trump made, and people know it.
Speaker 2: He does not have a mandate. The novelty of Trump
Speaker 2: for a long time has been fading. It has not
Speaker 2: faded in the political media class right who still overscore
Speaker 2: his ability and his influence in this country. He is
Speaker 2: a dangerous, dangerous man, but he is also a crumbling edifice.
Speaker 2: He has also never been smart. He is also constantly
Speaker 2: obsessed about the things that he knows he's done in
Speaker 2: the past, like the Epstein stuff, and he is he
Speaker 2: is flailing around right now in a way that's not
Speaker 2: going to build public trust or confidence. It's not going
Speaker 2: to No one's gonna wake up in the morning and go, well,
Speaker 2: thank God, we're covering up the Epstein files. God, I
Speaker 2: like Trump now, Rick Wilson, we come back as always,
Speaker 2: you know me.
Speaker 1: Chris Murphy is the junior senator from the state of
Speaker 1: connect Welcome to Fast Politics. Senator Chris Murphy.
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for having me back.
Speaker 1: I feel like I've interviewed you so many times, and
Speaker 1: I read you, I watch you, and I watch the
Speaker 1: way you've changed to this moment in American life, like
Speaker 1: going from a safe blue senator with aspirations to a
Speaker 1: person who is just really worried about where we are
Speaker 1: in this country right now. And I feel like it's
Speaker 1: very clear to me that that you've become like really
Speaker 1: a moral conscience of this moment. What is the sort
Speaker 1: of emotional journey you've been on in a way. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know you're your senator, but like you clearly are
Speaker 1: meeting the moment in a way that a lot of
Speaker 1: people are not.
Speaker 5: It's like a really wonderful backhanded compliment. I will accept
Speaker 5: the fact that I used to be worse and now
Speaker 5: I'm better.
Speaker 1: You were good before, but you know, like what you're
Speaker 1: doing now is like full time twenty four to seven,
Speaker 1: just talking about what's happening.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I mean, listen, I don't know why I
Speaker 5: have sort of seen the threat with clarity, but I've
Speaker 5: seen the threat. I was confident from the minute he
Speaker 5: was sworn in that he was cooking up something fundamentally
Speaker 5: different in this term than from the first term, and
Speaker 5: that we were going to be in a fight from
Speaker 5: the moment he showed up in that office to save
Speaker 5: our democracy. A part of that, Molly is that you know,
Speaker 5: I did spend a bunch of the last four years
Speaker 5: kind of digging into the pseudo intellectual underpinnings of MAGA.
Speaker 5: And you know, there are these two ideas that have
Speaker 5: become very much mainstream inside Donald Trump's orbit, and they
Speaker 5: are that democracy is really not worth it any longer,
Speaker 5: that it's an Peter tal yes. And the second one
Speaker 5: is that you know, progressives the left represent an existential
Speaker 5: threat to the national identity, which to MAGA is a
Speaker 5: white Christian, male dominated identity. And so you know, they
Speaker 5: don't really care about getting rid of democracy because it
Speaker 5: serves their end, which is to eliminate progressives in the
Speaker 5: left from the body politics. So I just think you
Speaker 5: have to understand that, you know, that sort of anti
Speaker 5: small d democratic sentiment inside the Republican Party, which maybe
Speaker 5: was a bit fringe in twenty sixteen, is now mainstream.
Speaker 5: And so this is a serious moment, perhaps the most
Speaker 5: serious moment this country has faced since the Civil War,
Speaker 5: and we have to treat it that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I feel like you lose a democracy in
Speaker 1: tiny ways and in it, you know, slowly and all
Speaker 1: at once. And I feel like you have been very
Speaker 1: clear about some of those moments. So I would love
Speaker 1: you to sort of talk about where you think we
Speaker 1: are right now, Well.
Speaker 5: I think we're almost there, right. I mean, I think
Speaker 5: we're much closer to losing the democracy than people think
Speaker 5: we are. And I do think there's this fallacy whereby
Speaker 5: people are waiting for this one seismic moment.
Speaker 2: But that's not.
Speaker 5: Really what happens in the story of democracies that disintegrate,
Speaker 5: Elections don't really ever get canceled. There's not normally a who.
Speaker 5: What occurs is that the space where political descent just
Speaker 5: gets contracted so badly that the minority party of the
Speaker 5: opposition party can never win a national election. And I
Speaker 5: think we have this tendency to only live in one
Speaker 5: news cycle at a time, and we forget on Tuesday
Speaker 5: what happened on Monday, and we don't have the muscles
Speaker 5: to be able to understand the cumulative impact of everything
Speaker 5: that he has done. But this has been systematic, the
Speaker 5: way he has gone after law firms, gone after college campuses,
Speaker 5: going after states with governors who you speak too meanly
Speaker 5: about him, using the power of the purse to reward
Speaker 5: loyal states and punished states that have leaders who criticize him.
Speaker 5: The consolidation of the media happening as we speak right.
Speaker 5: Trump allies now on the verge of owning CBS, TikTok Meta, CNN.
Speaker 5: This is the story of how a country like Hungary
Speaker 5: or a country like Turkey slipped into illiberal democracy bordering
Speaker 5: on autocracy. And if we don't understand that times are
Speaker 5: running out for us to make a stand, we may
Speaker 5: have an election in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2: Trump's supper rands.
Speaker 5: Might be at thirty two percent and Democrats will still
Speaker 5: lose because our base stays home because they just gave up.
Speaker 5: Our donors run for the hills because they don't want
Speaker 5: to be grasped by Trump. The media just doesn't tell
Speaker 5: the true story. They platform maga content, but they don't
Speaker 5: platform criticism.
Speaker 2: That's a restled bee for disaster.
Speaker 1: None of this is particularly popular, Like we're talking about
Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five, the Unitary Executive Executor theory that
Speaker 1: Trump should be sort of a god king and that
Speaker 1: every branch of the federal government should serve his desires
Speaker 1: not popular, but being implemented not popular.
Speaker 5: And I think there is a conversation happening here in
Speaker 5: DC whereby you know, some of my colleagues are some
Speaker 5: pundits saying, well, you know, you shouldn't really talk about
Speaker 5: democracy because you know, democracy didn't win the election force
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty four, and so let's not talk about
Speaker 5: it now. I don't think that gives voters credit, right,
Speaker 5: they know that this is a different knowledge than twenty
Speaker 5: twenty four. I mean, they've seen what he has done.
Speaker 5: There's a new poll that shows eighty percent of Americans
Speaker 5: believe that we are in a political crisis, and that
Speaker 5: for the first time ever, over fifty percent of Americans
Speaker 5: worry that their ability to speak, for that the freedom
Speaker 5: of speech is being a bridge to the point of
Speaker 5: potentially being destroyed. That's exceptional, and so I think people
Speaker 5: are ready for us to elevate this question of the
Speaker 5: rule of law, to come after him for his belief
Speaker 5: that he's a king. You know, just because we didn't
Speaker 5: win in twenty twenty four, talking about democracy doesn't mean
Speaker 5: that we can't win now. People know the circumstances are different.
Speaker 5: They know this threat is real, is present.
Speaker 1: Is clear because he's doing it, because he's been president
Speaker 1: for nine months and we've seen like just seis rollbacks
Speaker 1: of our rights. So this gets me to a question,
Speaker 1: which is, like, I'm friends with a lot of these
Speaker 1: people in leadership, and I talk to their offices. And again,
Speaker 1: this is not like me criticizing because I think I'm
Speaker 1: you know whatever. It's me criticizing because I'm genuinely worried
Speaker 1: that we're in a five alon fire. Why is it
Speaker 1: so hard for leadership to message that, well, I.
Speaker 5: Mean, this is not I guess for me, like right now,
Speaker 5: in the middle of a shutdown fight, I'm not super
Speaker 5: interesting in internal critiques. I just want everybody to start
Speaker 5: fighting the totalitarianism. I do think though, that for people
Speaker 5: that are more comfortable talking about, for instance, healthcare and
Speaker 5: healthcare premiums that are going up, these are the same story,
Speaker 5: right right. So Trump is doing these super unpopular things,
Speaker 5: robbing from people, taking their health care away in order
Speaker 5: to pad the pockets of billionaires. And the only way
Speaker 5: that he gets away with something down unpopular is by
Speaker 5: also destroying your ability to protest. And so if he
Speaker 5: gets away with the destruction of democracy, then he's going
Speaker 5: to be able to more easily just take stuff from you,
Speaker 5: your kid's education, your healthcare, money for street improvements in
Speaker 5: your neighborhood, and hand it to corporations and billionaires. So
Speaker 5: the only way that you protect yourself and your ability
Speaker 5: to manage your budget.
Speaker 2: As prices are going up.
Speaker 5: Is to fight his totalitarianism, is to fight what he
Speaker 5: is doing to try to destroy our democracy. Because that's
Speaker 5: the other feature of these countries that have slid into
Speaker 5: illiberal democracy is that the separation between rich and poortges
Speaker 5: get bigger and bigger and bigger, because they become totalitarian oligarchies,
Speaker 5: not just totalitarian states like Russia.
Speaker 1: I mean, the polling show is that the base is
Speaker 1: furious that there are a percentage of Democrats that are
Speaker 1: so incredibly angry, and it's created a kind of complicated dynamic.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like there's a way to tap into
Speaker 1: that and do you feel like those people can use
Speaker 1: that energy for you know, what needs to happen right now.
Speaker 2: Well, some of that is.
Speaker 5: Due to Trump's successful, you know, strategy and approach. I mean,
Speaker 5: he He's engaged in this sort of dizzying attacks on
Speaker 5: free speech, attacks on people's pocketbooks. It's a new story
Speaker 5: every day, and for a lot of people, you know,
Speaker 5: they retreat in part because it's just all too overwhelming.
Speaker 5: But for other people, they are retreating because they worry
Speaker 5: that Democrats are powerless. That's why, you know, probably the
Speaker 5: most important thing that has happened on our side in
Speaker 5: the last few months is Gavin Newsom's moved to a
Speaker 5: redistrict in California because it sort of showed a pathway
Speaker 5: of power. It showed that we had options, tools at
Speaker 5: our disposal that.
Speaker 2: We could use.
Speaker 5: This is one of those tools right now. Right the
Speaker 5: leverage that Democrats have to say, here are the conditions
Speaker 5: upon which we are willing to vote for a budget.
Speaker 5: And I think people want us to do more than
Speaker 5: just say we want healthcare subsidies turned back on for
Speaker 5: twenty two million Americans. I think they also want us
Speaker 5: to say we are not going to willingly fund a
Speaker 5: budget that destroys our democracy. I'm not going to be
Speaker 5: a sucker and vote for to fund a DOJ that
Speaker 5: turns around and hunts me and my political palt Why
Speaker 5: on earth would I do that? And if we do it,
Speaker 5: it makes us look impotent and weak, and it causes
Speaker 5: more people out there who hate what Trump is doing
Speaker 5: to just pull back from politics because they don't think
Speaker 5: that there's any use in voting for an opposition party
Speaker 5: that doesn't use all the tools that it has at
Speaker 5: its disposal to fight all of the illegality and the corruption.
Speaker 5: And I'll just say this, I'm not unrealistic about this
Speaker 5: when I say that we should fight to preserve democracy.
Speaker 5: I'm not saying that we're only going to sign on
Speaker 5: to a budget that eliminates all of Trump's corruption. But
Speaker 5: I think we're going to make some progress. We've at
Speaker 5: least got to throw some sand in the gears to
Speaker 5: try to slow down on the illegality and the corruption.
Speaker 1: So Republican members of Appropriation have said that it would
Speaker 1: be I mean, this was reported, you know, under the
Speaker 1: cloak of anonymity, as all Republican criticism is, but that
Speaker 1: said Democrats would be crazy to sign on to any
Speaker 1: kind of budget because of the pocket recessions, because this
Speaker 1: administration is not good on its ward. Democrats are coming
Speaker 1: up against the problem that foreign countries have, which is
Speaker 1: you can't trust Trump literally, figuratively, metaphorically period.
Speaker 5: You know, it is worth just noting what an odds
Speaker 5: system we have here. You know, we are essentially in
Speaker 5: coalition government with Republicans because our rules require democratic votes
Speaker 5: for a budget. In you know, other parliamentary systems, it's
Speaker 5: just the majority party that has to deliver the votes here.
Speaker 5: They need our participation, which means they have to present
Speaker 5: as good faith partners. They cannot bring us to the
Speaker 5: negotiating table say yeah, we're going to agree to this
Speaker 5: much money in New York and Connecticut, and then once
Speaker 5: we give our votes, we find out that none of
Speaker 5: the money in the budget is being spent on our states.
Speaker 2: Trump's doing that right now, right he.
Speaker 5: Is brazenly canceling projects only in democratic states as a
Speaker 5: means to, I guess, try to bully us to the
Speaker 5: negotiating table. There are things that we can do in
Speaker 5: this budget that would at the very least make it
Speaker 5: harder for Trump to get away with that kind of
Speaker 5: sort of pulling the rug from under democratic priorities. Provisions
Speaker 5: that would make it absolutely clear that he has to
Speaker 5: spend all the money in the budget, not just in
Speaker 5: the states that he deems to be loyal to him,
Speaker 5: and would give you know, my governor an easy rights
Speaker 5: to go to court to get the money turned back on.
Speaker 5: So you can't stop him from acting illegally, but you
Speaker 5: can make it a lot easier for the victims of
Speaker 5: his illegality to go to court and get a pretty
Speaker 5: quick injunction, and that's what we would be looking for
Speaker 5: in this budget.
Speaker 1: That seems like something that would be sort of easy
Speaker 1: to slip by Trump world because they're not so detail oriented,
Speaker 1: with the exception of Rastavant, and something that Republicans might
Speaker 1: agree to because they don't necessarily like this appropriations fight.
Speaker 1: They have lost the power of the purse and the
Speaker 1: power of oversight. Do you think there's appetite there for
Speaker 1: that or no?
Speaker 5: Well, I listen, I don't think it makes a lot
Speaker 5: of sense to negotiate the details in public.
Speaker 2: I just for.
Speaker 5: Now, we need to say, and this is my recommendation,
Speaker 5: we need to say that if you want our votes
Speaker 5: for this budget, there are two things you got up do.
Speaker 5: You've got to stop people supreams from going up by
Speaker 5: seventy five percent fundamentallyum moral that you are robbing people
Speaker 5: of health care in order to have the pockets of billionaires.
Speaker 5: And you've got put constraints on Trump's illegality. You've got
Speaker 5: to give us a shot to have a free and
Speaker 5: fair election in twenty twenty six and twenty twenty eight.
Speaker 5: And I think we're talking about constraints on his ability
Speaker 5: to seize spending power. That's important, but there's a number
Speaker 5: of other things that we could talk about, including the
Speaker 5: way in which he is using federal troops to be
Speaker 5: deployed to our cities, that could be on the table
Speaker 5: as part of that conversation about protecting our democracy.
Speaker 2: So, yes, there are a lot.
Speaker 5: Of options we have at our disposal, and I think
Speaker 5: a lot of that can be fleshed out at a
Speaker 5: negotiating table.
Speaker 1: These blue states are paying more money into the federal
Speaker 1: government and they're being denied the money back. I mean,
Speaker 1: some of these governors, like you know, California, it's the
Speaker 1: fourth largest economy in the world. Are the conversations about,
Speaker 1: like what power the states have when it comes to
Speaker 1: federal funds.
Speaker 5: Obviously, there are a set of much edgier techniques that
Speaker 5: are on the table at our disposal to try to
Speaker 5: arrest this slide away from democracy. Whether it's states taking
Speaker 5: unilateral action about the money they send them to Washington,
Speaker 5: whether it's the you.
Speaker 1: Know, vaccines we saw that, Yeah.
Speaker 5: Tech techniques that have been used in other fights like
Speaker 5: general strikes. My feeling is this, we have leverage right
Speaker 5: now through the ordinary political process to try to fix
Speaker 5: these problems. And so before we go to those edgier techniques,
Speaker 5: which I think just have to be on the table,
Speaker 5: those edgier tactics, let's try to use the sort of
Speaker 5: conventional route, which is using our power as a minority
Speaker 5: party to say, if you want us to sign on
Speaker 5: to this budget, and right now they need us to
Speaker 5: sign onto this budget, you have got to put our
Speaker 5: democracy back on a healthy pathway.
Speaker 2: So I think that's where the focus needs to be
Speaker 2: right now.
Speaker 1: You've been in DC a long time and you do
Speaker 1: know a lot of these people personally. Do you think
Speaker 1: that Republicans understand how different this is that Trump two
Speaker 1: point out is to Trump to one point out or
Speaker 1: are they just still hide bought in?
Speaker 5: No, I mean, I do not think Republicans are going
Speaker 5: to save us. There are a handful in the Senate
Speaker 5: who know this is wrong, but it is a shrinking number,
Speaker 5: a number that is shrinking almost to the point of irrelevancy. Again,
Speaker 5: it is just important to remember what I said at
Speaker 5: the outset that the mainstream Republican thinking right now is
Speaker 5: that democracy is not worth it if it elects democrats
Speaker 5: right period.
Speaker 4: Stop.
Speaker 5: They want power, and they want power at any cost,
Speaker 5: and that is the view of now the sizeable majority
Speaker 5: of Republicans in the House and in the Senate, and
Speaker 5: so well, yes, we have an ability right now to
Speaker 5: sort of force them to do the right thing because
Speaker 5: they might lose their seats if they raise people's premiums.
Speaker 5: They're only going to come to the table because they're
Speaker 5: worried about their election. They're not going to come to
Speaker 5: the table again. The majority of them are not going
Speaker 5: to come to the table because they actually know what
Speaker 5: he's doing is wrong.
Speaker 2: That ship is kind of sailed.
Speaker 5: As dire as things are, we saw what happened with
Speaker 5: Kimmel that people stood up and canceled their subscriptions and
Speaker 5: forced it. So like it is still within our power
Speaker 5: to stand up and mobilized. And yeah, I'm worried that
Speaker 5: people are losing faith in the Democratic opposition. My hope
Speaker 5: is that by standing our ground right now for people's healthcare,
Speaker 5: for our democracy, we can show folks that were relevant
Speaker 5: and that we'll have big turnouts in the fall elections.
Speaker 5: We'll get some momentum going. We'll be back out on
Speaker 5: the streets for the no Kings protests on the eighteenth.
Speaker 5: Sometimes I can, you know, be a little bit of
Speaker 5: a downer because I'm just trying to be realistic with people.
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of.
Speaker 5: Promise, a lot of hope, and a lot of power
Speaker 5: in what we can do in the next couple of months.
Speaker 1: I agree, Thank you, thanks.
Speaker 2: Thanks mind a moment, oh fuck, Rick Wilson, Well, I
Speaker 2: drunk fast.
Speaker 1: We are at that moment, the moment of fucker.
Speaker 2: Y, the moment which the fuckery begins.
Speaker 1: That is right, what would you what is your moment
Speaker 1: of fuck right?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: Look, I think the moment of fuckery was little Pete Hegseth,
Speaker 2: a man who wears more hair product than the two
Speaker 2: of us combined and more makeup than than the average
Speaker 2: drag queen, prancing around the stage lecturing eight hundred senior
Speaker 2: flag officers and senior enlisted figures from the military on
Speaker 2: on warrior prowess and and and martial skill in combat
Speaker 2: and toughness. When he is a Fox News weekend host
Speaker 2: and a chronic drunkard. This this went over as you
Speaker 2: might have expected, like a wet fart and a hot
Speaker 2: car on a first date. It was what it was
Speaker 2: a complete train wreck.
Speaker 5: What were what.
Speaker 1: Were people saying in the room?
Speaker 4: Well, it's what they weren't saying that matter.
Speaker 2: They weren't applauding, they weren't yelling who, they weren't jumping
Speaker 2: up and down.
Speaker 4: When he finished that speech.
Speaker 2: The very best moment of the entire thing, He's like,
Speaker 2: we're the Department of War, Go get them. And he
Speaker 2: looked at that audience and he waited, and he waited
Speaker 2: another beat, and then another beat, and he looks down
Speaker 2: for one second. You could see his whole face collapse
Speaker 2: for one second, then looks back up and walks off
Speaker 2: the state. I know it's a little thing, but those
Speaker 2: eight hundred generals and admirals in that office, in that
Speaker 2: in that room, in that auditorium, and the and the
Speaker 2: and the dozens and dozens of senior enlisted folks in
Speaker 2: that room, in the Trumpian climate, the right thing would
Speaker 2: have been to clap, stand up, you know, let let
Speaker 2: the pit powers that be see you being on their team. Yeah,
Speaker 2: not one of them did it. And not one of
Speaker 2: them stood or clapped for Trump, not one, not one,
Speaker 2: not once. And it was it was, to my mind,
Speaker 2: the fuckery of Trump and Hexeth trying to rally or
Speaker 2: get those people in the rooms so they could have
Speaker 2: a Trump campaign rally was pathetic and dangerous to the country.
Speaker 2: And and the great thing about it was this time
Speaker 2: their fuckery failed. It blew up in their face and
Speaker 2: it embarrassed this White House and the embarrassed Secretory defense dramatically.
Speaker 1: My favorite part of it was that Trump wouldn't let
Speaker 1: heg Seth have the photo ops, so he came like
Speaker 1: that is as someone who's from a family of performers,
Speaker 1: Like I get that so hard, Like I get it man,
Speaker 1: Like you're calling all the generals back. They're not gonna
Speaker 1: see you know, like you may think you're the you're
Speaker 1: the main event, but you are not right.
Speaker 4: You know that.
Speaker 2: That's a really good point. And Trump's ego drove him
Speaker 2: over there. I also heard that Vance was pushing him
Speaker 2: to go over there to make sure Hegseth didn't get
Speaker 2: a solo show. But you know, with Hegseth on the stage,
Speaker 2: it was everything but him holding his camera up and
Speaker 2: doing a selfie and then and the duck face for
Speaker 2: with the crowd.
Speaker 1: It was amaz telling you the the game of throwing
Speaker 1: stuff with Heg Sas and RFK and JD. Vance and
Speaker 1: like it is Marco and all of the yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: Rick Wilson, Hey, Mollie, John Fast. I will not speak
Speaker 2: to you again until next weekend about this one issue.
Speaker 2: But it's Nobel week.
Speaker 4: What are your what are your? What odds you taking that?
Speaker 2: On Friday we're gonna hear that Donald Trump is the
Speaker 2: nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize.
Speaker 1: I think that Donald Trump is likely to get a
Speaker 1: Nobel Prize as I am there you go, all right, good,
Speaker 1: No pleasure to report because I would like a prize.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
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