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Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie and you're listening to Steph Mob.

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Speaker 1: Never told you Today I am joined by yes, another

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Speaker 1: guest co host, a good friend of mine, Chandler Maze. Hello, Hello, Chandler.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you agreed to go on this

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Speaker 1: journey with me. Reluctantly. It is reluctantly, yes, but I

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Speaker 1: Chandler and I have been friends for a while. How

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Speaker 1: many years now, Oh gosh, seven seven let's just say

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Speaker 1: seven seven is good. We've been friends for a while

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Speaker 1: and we have this tradition where on Halloween we try

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Speaker 1: to watch a lot of horror movies as many as possible.

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Speaker 1: We're very ambitious and he's ambitious. Yes, they were up, Danny,

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Speaker 1: we could probably tackle. We'd probably still be watching horror

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Speaker 1: films in the month of October alone. Yeah, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: would just be constant, no sleep horror movies. But this

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Speaker 1: year we were watching Rosemary's Baby, which for me, it's

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Speaker 1: been the first time since I've that I've seen that

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Speaker 1: movie in a long time. I think I think I

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Speaker 1: saw it when I was in maybe freshman year of college,

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Speaker 1: so it has been a while. I'll let you listeners

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Speaker 1: guess that's how long that is. But it has been

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Speaker 1: a lot a while, and we it sparked a conversation

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Speaker 1: about this question that I think a lot of us

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Speaker 1: have been wrestling with in the era of Me Too,

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Speaker 1: and that is, what do we do with art that

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Speaker 1: we love that is created by monstrous people, or at

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Speaker 1: the very least very problematic people, and how do we

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Speaker 1: feel about it? And I want to go ahead and

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Speaker 1: say right at the front, this episode is probably gonna

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Speaker 1: be frustrating for a lot of people because there is

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Speaker 1: no neat, clear cut answer. I was looking for one.

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Speaker 1: There is not one. It's really intensely personal and I

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Speaker 1: can't tell you how to interact with the art that

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Speaker 1: you enjoy. No one really can. It's up to you.

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Speaker 1: I agree, it's very subjective, and I don't don't have

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Speaker 1: an answer in the slightest a clear cut answer. And

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Speaker 1: that's part of the reason why I agree to do this,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like it will help me just navigate

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Speaker 1: the territory a little bit more, or at least be

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Speaker 1: a little bit more at peace with experiencing art that

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Speaker 1: that's created by a problematic person, right, and in some

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Speaker 1: cases a monster cases, in some cases a quick trigger warning. Here,

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Speaker 1: we will be talking about me too and sexual assault

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Speaker 1: in this episode, and I wanted to preface this whole

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Speaker 1: conversation with a reminder that we're having this conversation around art,

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Speaker 1: but at the heart of it, what we're talking about

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Speaker 1: is the symptom of so many societal problems like misogyny

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Speaker 1: and sexism, lack of respect for women, racism. We wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have to talk about this at all unless so many

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Speaker 1: people in the art world weren't committing crimes. And until

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Speaker 1: we've dealt with those issues at their core, we're going

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Speaker 1: to have to keep wrestling with this. UM. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to lose sight of that while we're delving into

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Speaker 1: this topic. It sort of reminds me of that snl

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Speaker 1: skit Welcome to Hell, where it's five women singing the

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Speaker 1: super upbeat pop song about how we're so sorry dudes.

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Speaker 1: I know it sex you can't enjoy a house of

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Speaker 1: cards anymore, but women don't feel safe walking to our

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Speaker 1: cars alone, or earlier this year that comment about how

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Speaker 1: it's a really scary time for men because it could

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Speaker 1: be accused of sexual assault at any time, and we've

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Speaker 1: heard it over and over from so many male artists. UM,

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Speaker 1: we don't want to start a witch hunt, do we

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Speaker 1: don't get don't get too caught up in this. And um,

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Speaker 1: the artists who committed the crime or crimes is the

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Speaker 1: one to blame in these cases that we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: and they have to face the consequences of their actions.

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Speaker 1: They need to be held accountable and these their actions

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Speaker 1: cause ripple effects of harm. Making good art does not

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Speaker 1: excuse earned this behavior. So there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: things that play in this conversation, a lot, a lot,

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Speaker 1: a lot of things. So we're going to look specifically

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Speaker 1: at the case of Rosemary's Baby because it is an

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Speaker 1: excellent case study. I am hard pressed to think of

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Speaker 1: a better case study. Maybe Woody Allen's Manhattan. Oh, you're right,

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Speaker 1: and we are going to talk about that as well. Um,

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Speaker 1: And we're going to zoom out from these very specific

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Speaker 1: examples to try to give you some kind of a

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Speaker 1: map or a compass through this very rocky terrain that

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Speaker 1: we find ourselves in. Sounds great, Yeah, alright. So for

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Speaker 1: people who don't know what Rosemary's Baby is, and you

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Speaker 1: you are interested in seeing it, you don't want to

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Speaker 1: be spoiled, go watch it now, because we're going to

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Speaker 1: spoil the heck out of it. Hip pause. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Hip House, come back and you will be fresh right,

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Speaker 1: you'll be ready to really take in to absorb all

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Speaker 1: of what we're saying. Let's get everybody on the same page.

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Speaker 1: Can you can you describe Rosemary's baby? So in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty five, Guy and Rosemary Woodstock move into this apartment

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Speaker 1: complex in New York City called the Bramford Apartment Building,

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Speaker 1: which is a very nice apartment building. Yeah, it's stupid expensive,

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Speaker 1: I think, even by sixties standards. I don't think. I

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Speaker 1: feel like that's just the story of every character that

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Speaker 1: lives in a TV show or movie in Manhattan, like

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Speaker 1: their real life income would not be able to suppor

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Speaker 1: living there. It was made in this movie and it

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Speaker 1: was based on a book by Ira Levin, who also

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Speaker 1: wrote Stetford Wives. By the way. Yeah, it was directed

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Speaker 1: by Roman Polanski and it starred Mia Pharaoh as Rosemary.

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Speaker 1: And on the surface, it's a movie about a husband

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Speaker 1: trading his wife's body, specifically her room, to a cult

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Speaker 1: and to satan himself in exchange for fame, and that

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Speaker 1: is certainly frightening. But what has given it so much

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Speaker 1: staying power and What has made it so scary to

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Speaker 1: this day is the undercurrent of paranoia, of gas lighting,

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Speaker 1: of gender dynamics, and that whole why don't you believe her?

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Speaker 1: Thing that we did a whole episode on these things

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Speaker 1: that wound face in close relationships like with a spouse

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Speaker 1: or with a doctor, and on a societal level, all

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Speaker 1: of this remains relevant to this day. It's like, kind

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Speaker 1: of your watching it. Yeah, it's like the textbook example,

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Speaker 1: especially of gas lighting. Oh yeah, it is gaslight gaslighting.

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Speaker 1: You're like, it should just say Rosemary's Baby. Yes, they

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Speaker 1: should as a picture of Guy, her husband. It's like that,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly what it was. Jordan Field, who wrote and

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Speaker 1: directed get Out, names Rosemary's Baby is probably, in quotes,

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Speaker 1: his favorite film and one of the main influences for

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Speaker 1: get Out, and he said of Rosemary's Baby, quote, it's

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Speaker 1: a film about gender. It's about men making decisions about

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Speaker 1: women's bodies behind their backs. And again that feels super

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Speaker 1: relevant to this day. There's a scene very early on

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Speaker 1: in Rosemary's Baby that captures a lot of stuff that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about. When Rosemary's husband, Guy is trying to

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Speaker 1: convince her to eat this chocolate moose, and this chocolate

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Speaker 1: moose was prepared by their neighbors, who just kind of older,

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Speaker 1: seemingly harmless neighbors. Right, Yeah, they meet the neighbors within.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it just seems like a matter of

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Speaker 1: days of when they actually moved in. So wait were

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Speaker 1: they Did they meet the neighbors when they were like

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Speaker 1: actually checking out the apartment? I think so they Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the neighbors were there very early on in there. Right,

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Speaker 1: So they meet the neighbors, go over there for drinks,

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Speaker 1: just to get to know them. And that is I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming the moment that um cass of d Yeah, Mr

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Speaker 1: cass of Etty's approach this guy off screen and says,

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Speaker 1: where we're looking to us, right for Satan, for Satan's

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Speaker 1: for Satan's earthly child, and I think your wife would

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Speaker 1: be perfect. Then if you if you give us your

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Speaker 1: wife's womb, then you will become a famous actor. Probably

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Speaker 1: the gist of how that conversation went. Yeah, and apparently

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Speaker 1: he agrees quite readily immediately because they met each other.

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Speaker 1: They hung out that night, and it was the following

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Speaker 1: night that guy was like, let's have a baby. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Rosemary had wanted a baby and he had been kind

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Speaker 1: of reticence, and then he was like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: it's baby, let's do it. Let's do it. Changed my mind.

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Speaker 1: And then the neighbors show up with his chocolate moves

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Speaker 1: and Rosemary says she takes a taste of it, and

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Speaker 1: she says, I don't really like it. It's kind of chalky.

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Speaker 1: And guy says, I don't know what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Taste fine to me. Taste fine to me, And she's

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Speaker 1: still kind of iffy about it. So then he tries

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Speaker 1: to guilter saying that the old bats slaved away yep

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Speaker 1: um something something along those lines, And when that doesn't work,

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Speaker 1: he flips it around so that she's being the unreasonable one,

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Speaker 1: saying there's always something wrong right right, which is gas

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Speaker 1: lighting one one for sure. Yeah, And and so she

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Speaker 1: she eats some of it, she doesn't eat all of it.

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Speaker 1: She she like spits some out in a napkin, right

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Speaker 1: because it tastes like chalk, because it doesn't taste good.

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Speaker 1: But it's enough where she's drugged and she kind of

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Speaker 1: wakes up while she's being raped by Satan himself. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's actually a crazy kind of dream sequence that goes

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Speaker 1: down right there. You don't really know what she's seeing,

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Speaker 1: how much of what she's seeing and hearing is actually

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Speaker 1: happening or not. I'd like to think most of the

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Speaker 1: things she hears people say seem to be actually what

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Speaker 1: was said. Like, I think there's one point where guys like,

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Speaker 1: do you need to paint that on her? Does she

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Speaker 1: need to be tied down like that? Or this? And that? Like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's all part of the ritual. It's fine. And then

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Speaker 1: somebody asked her like, is this music bothering you? And yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was so nice about it, even in her drug stage.

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Speaker 1: She said, oh no, don't change the music on my account.

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Speaker 1: That's fine. Fine. Yeah, she's just unwillingly a part of

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Speaker 1: this horrific sex ritual where she is raped by I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming Lucifer himself. Yeah. Yeah, and um, another kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting point there is that guy did he made this

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Speaker 1: decision complete without her, obviously, but it does kind of

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Speaker 1: reinforce that idea that women the control of their body

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Speaker 1: is being taken away, like their body isn't their own,

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Speaker 1: it's something that men are. It's exactly, yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: for him whatever he intends to do with it's for

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Speaker 1: his benefit or his pleasure. That's what she's there for, right,

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Speaker 1: which is horrifying, And that scene is very disturbing. It's effective,

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Speaker 1: and at the end she yeah, she's sort of hallucinating,

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Speaker 1: drifting in and out, and she's says the iconic line,

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Speaker 1: this is no dream. This is no dream. This is

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Speaker 1: really happening. Right, Very good, great, a fair impression. I

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Speaker 1: liked it. I liked it. Okay. So when she wakes

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Speaker 1: up the next morning, she has these angry fingernails scratches

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Speaker 1: down her back, and to me, this is one of

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Speaker 1: the most disturbing scenes because it shows you how much

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Speaker 1: things have changed. Her husband, Guy makes fun of her

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Speaker 1: for getting so drunk that she passed out and tells

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Speaker 1: her that he had sex with her unconscious body rather

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Speaker 1: than missing quote baby night, um and because because they're

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Speaker 1: trying to get pregnant, and he says this awful thing

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Speaker 1: in a jokey, jokey way, like, oh, I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to miss baby night. And then like she said something

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Speaker 1: like oh man, that was a horrible nightmare or something

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Speaker 1: like that, and he was like, oh, well, thanks a lot,

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Speaker 1: like making her feel guilty, and he says it was

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Speaker 1: fun in a necrophile sort of way. Um man that

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Speaker 1: that did not go over well no no, um, and

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Speaker 1: they move on. They move on. But it is worth

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Speaker 1: noting I think that both Rosemary and the audience are

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Speaker 1: not meant to regard this dismissal of guys without suspicion.

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Speaker 1: You're not meant to be on his side. You're you're

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Speaker 1: suspicious of him for this stuff. Um. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: movie does a good job of making you suspicious of

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Speaker 1: everything and everyone around Rosemary from the jump, Like from

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Speaker 1: the moment the first you see the first shot of

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Speaker 1: the movie, you're like, I'm suspicious of this whole scene. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is one of my favorite types of horror movies.

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Speaker 1: I love being suspicious of everything. I love when tropes

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Speaker 1: play into themselves. Like even when they're viewing the apartment

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Speaker 1: before they move in, there was like that giant what

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Speaker 1: do you call that in our more or giant dresser

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Speaker 1: that was like strangely pushed into the back of the hallway,

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Speaker 1: and then when they move it, they're like, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: just the closet on the other side, right, Like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's weird. So you're mainly like that's off, and then

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Speaker 1: she she read that letter from the previous tenant, but

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Speaker 1: it was like an unfinished letter. I can't remember exactly

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Speaker 1: what I said. It was some of the effect of

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Speaker 1: like I cannot be a part of this anymore. And

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Speaker 1: then it's just like it cuts off mid sentence. So

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Speaker 1: you're like, well, something terrible just happened here, and that's

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Speaker 1: just how they set the scene. Yes, and you're already

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Speaker 1: on edge or you're like looking for these things because

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Speaker 1: you're watching a a scary, a scary movie. Um. And

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Speaker 1: also worth noting is that marital rape wasn't illegal when

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Speaker 1: this was made, and laws against it wouldn't start cropping

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Speaker 1: up in the States until the seventies. It wasn't outlawed

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Speaker 1: in all fifties states until that's that's mind blowing, that's scary, yeah, yeah, um.

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Speaker 1: And speaking of timing, the timing of this movie is

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Speaker 1: interesting too. Between the fifties Housewives, but before the seventies Livers,

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Speaker 1: the first birth control pills were entering the market. Roevie

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Speaker 1: Wade was around the corner. American women were losing more

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Speaker 1: and more control of their bodies and this movie comes

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Speaker 1: out and it seems to be tapping into all of this,

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Speaker 1: which is made all the more fascinating by the fact

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Speaker 1: that Roman Planskia Dude is the one that kind of

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Speaker 1: although apparently he didn't know it was based on a book.

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Speaker 1: He thought it was going to be directly, like he

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have any creative he had to stick to the

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Speaker 1: book directly, Like he didn't realize how I guess adaptations work,

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Speaker 1: Like he didn't realize he had creative agency, and like

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Speaker 1: he could have changed some things. He could have made

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Speaker 1: he could have left a scene out or kept the

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Speaker 1: scene in, or YadA YadA YadA. Um. That's interesting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he thought he had to stick to the book pretty directly,

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Speaker 1: which I guess, in turn would make this like the

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Speaker 1: most faithful adaptation in the history of film adaptations. Right.

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Speaker 1: If somebody has the book, let us know, Like, is

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Speaker 1: there any stone not left unturned? Like is the movie

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Speaker 1: exactly the same as the book? Oh my goodness, I

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Speaker 1: would love to know. And also, if you have your

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Speaker 1: your submissions for least faithful adaptation, I submit the Shining

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Speaker 1: I would love to hear your submissions as well. Um.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it's so much of this movie does feel

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Speaker 1: oddly disconcerting. Lee relevant um undercutting a woman's decisions everything

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Speaker 1: from her choice of haircut. I forgot how much they

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Speaker 1: make fun of her her haircut and demean it um

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Speaker 1: to her decisions about her health. The constant gas lighting

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Speaker 1: and dismissal of Rosemary, calling her hysterical. Guy, throws away

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Speaker 1: her health books at one point for putting quote funny

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Speaker 1: ideas in her head. Yeah. Right. And her doctor, who

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Speaker 1: is also a cult member, by the way, we were

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Speaker 1: the first doctor because she does go to us, yells

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Speaker 1: at her when she brings up pelvic pain that she's

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Speaker 1: experiencing um and that maybe based on the books she's reading,

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Speaker 1: maybe she's got a topic pregnancy. But the doctor says,

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Speaker 1: I thought you weren't going to read books, lady, you

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Speaker 1: silly woman. You don't understanding words in a book. I

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Speaker 1: thought we had an agreement you would give that to us,

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Speaker 1: leave that to the professionals. And there's one scene that

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Speaker 1: really stood out to me in a recent viewing, and

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Speaker 1: we were we were just talking about this when um

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Speaker 1: Rosemary's tired of hanging out with all these old folks

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Speaker 1: in their apartment buildings, so she wants to throw most

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Speaker 1: of the the occult, most of the Satanists in this

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Speaker 1: what would you call it a group of satan a

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Speaker 1: Covidu cult occults are covid Yeah, okay, yeah. Most of

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Speaker 1: the Satanis in this cult are extremely old. She's definitely

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Speaker 1: the youngest character in the in the whole story, save

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Speaker 1: for this one party that she throws, right, and I

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Speaker 1: mean obviously, but she doesn't know their cultist are in

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Speaker 1: a coven, but she she does. She's got this surrounded

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Speaker 1: by elders, she is, and she wants to throw a

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Speaker 1: party with people more her age and her friends, UM

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Speaker 1: and guys. Totally against the idea, of course, um, but

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Speaker 1: she throws it nonetheless. And at one part in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the party, she kind of retreats the kitchen

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Speaker 1: and she's crying with pain of her pregnancy, and you

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Speaker 1: know what's going on there. She's in pain because it's

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Speaker 1: basically like it's Satan's basically maybe and I'm sure he's

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Speaker 1: just not making it easy on her. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: if this is true, but I always got the sense

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Speaker 1: that like, up until that point, maybe it wouldn't take um,

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Speaker 1: maybe there would have been a possibility of she's not

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Speaker 1: strong enough carry him to term, right, And it's incredibly painful.

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Speaker 1: I do feel like because after raw meats Um, and

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Speaker 1: she does, after the scene that I'm about described, she

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Speaker 1: does experience a better I see the pain goes away.

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Speaker 1: So I always assumed that maybe up until this point

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Speaker 1: there was a chance that there would be a miscarriage

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Speaker 1: or something. But she she's in the kitchen crying with

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Speaker 1: pain at this party, and a lot of her, like

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Speaker 1: a handful of her female friends are in the kitchen

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Speaker 1: with her, and she's describing the pain she's experiencing, and

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Speaker 1: they immediately believe her, and they tell her this isn't normal.

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Speaker 1: You need to get a new doctor. You need to

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Speaker 1: say what is what is he making you eat? Like

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Speaker 1: this is ridiculous and I can't explain to you. It

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Speaker 1: goes back to that episode we did about um not

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Speaker 1: believing women in horror movies. But the relief I felt

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Speaker 1: that people just were like, yes, you were in pain.

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Speaker 1: I believe you. I believe you. This is a problem.

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Speaker 1: It shouldn't be this way. And like in my contemporary

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Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen Bring This nine movie, I was like, yes,

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Speaker 1: this is still a thing. And then when she explains

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Speaker 1: to Guy what happened in the kitchen and that maybe

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Speaker 1: she should go to a different doctor and get a

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Speaker 1: second opinion. Um, guy calls her friends quote not very

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Speaker 1: bright bitches. Gosh yes, and he insults her haircut again,

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Speaker 1: which there's nothing redeemable about guy. It is just he

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Speaker 1: is the worst. That's another thing I'd like to know

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Speaker 1: about the book. Is guy like slightly more redeemable in

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Speaker 1: the book or is he just as despicable, like just

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Speaker 1: I'll be an actor at any cost, and I'll say

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Speaker 1: what I have to say to to make it happen,

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter how much pain I put my wife through. Um,

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Speaker 1: there is a funny what well, it's probably only funny

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Speaker 1: to me, But when I get drunk, there's a guy

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Speaker 1: at her office name Lyle and when I love awesome

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Speaker 1: Miles great. He also shares the name of a movie

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Speaker 1: called Aisle. That is Rosemary's Baby updated is what I

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Speaker 1: call it, and it's a battle lesbian couple. And it's

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Speaker 1: just funny to see the updates because in this guy

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Speaker 1: is a Broadway actor like trying to make it and

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Speaker 1: an allile. The guy equivalent character is a DJ, like

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Speaker 1: a famous trying to be famous DJ. Interesting. I like that,

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Speaker 1: But the worst part about guys he just doesn't even

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Speaker 1: he's like so spineless. He can't even really follow through

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Speaker 1: with his decisions, Like he tries to be as far

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Speaker 1: from present as he can be. Like even when she's

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Speaker 1: getting excited about the pregnancy, Like there's a scene where

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Speaker 1: she's like, oh my god, I can feel him kicking,

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Speaker 1: and she like grabs his hand and puts on her

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Speaker 1: belly and he just like retracts it and just disgusted,

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Speaker 1: and like in horror. He's like, oh my god. And

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Speaker 1: you're just like just at least like pretend to be

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Speaker 1: excited for her, like you did this to her white, Hey,

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Speaker 1: you at least just act your way through this and

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Speaker 1: like be more supportive of her and stop just berating

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Speaker 1: her at every turn. And one thing, I do love

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Speaker 1: that we're not going to get too much into this

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Speaker 1: episode because I think it's a different conversation than what

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Speaker 1: we're having. But in the end, the baby is born,

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Speaker 1: it's like a demon um. She has this reaction of horror,

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Speaker 1: but then the instincts, the maternal instincts, overcomer and she

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Speaker 1: approaches and she's like, you should rock it this way.

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Speaker 1: And I do love how quickly did the maternal instincts

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Speaker 1: kick in because she was demanded to by when the

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Speaker 1: females in the room, we're also like, you should be

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Speaker 1: proud of this and you should be happy about this.

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Speaker 1: I personally feel watching that movie that she experiences like

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Speaker 1: genuine this is my child's Yeah, but I love how

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Speaker 1: quickly the cult is like, we'll kill this guy here,

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Speaker 1: will kill your Like we don't need him. I do

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Speaker 1: love like he is. Yeah, he's completely want you. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: so she's like sedated she has the child and then

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Speaker 1: they take it from her, and yeah. Culminates in the

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Speaker 1: final scene where she finds that secret walk away through

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Speaker 1: the closet that was referenced in the beginning of the film,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, comes upon this satanic cult just hanging out

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Speaker 1: with Lucifer's child. But yeah, and then there's the classic

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Speaker 1: line where she comes up and she sees her baby

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Speaker 1: for the first time and clearly something's wrong with his eyes,

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Speaker 1: and she's got the line she's like, what is wrong

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Speaker 1: with his eyes? What have he done to his eyes?

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Speaker 1: And it's just so brutal, and then one of the

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Speaker 1: guys goes, how's his father's eyes? And then it's just

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Speaker 1: like a course of hail Sitan. Everyone's just screaming Hail Sitan,

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Speaker 1: and like, I just have chills. Like it is the

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Speaker 1: most one of the most chilling, horrific moments in like

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Speaker 1: the history of horror. All this to say, and I

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Speaker 1: could probably talk forever about Rosemary's Baby. I should have

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Speaker 1: mentioned but Chandler knows a lot about film. Um, I

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Speaker 1: just watched a lot of movies. Yeah, I feel like

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Speaker 1: you know a lot about film. I know some stuff.

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Speaker 1: But this movie holds up and it's a great movie.

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Speaker 1: And it's a great movie that's pretty feminist and it

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Speaker 1: has a strong female character. But it was made by

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Speaker 1: this terrible dude, and that is very dissonant. That makes

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Speaker 1: that for me, it takes you out of watching it,

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Speaker 1: like maybe you can lose yourself in it, but then

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Speaker 1: you'll sort of suddenly remember. Um it pulls at your

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Speaker 1: conscious or at least it does for me. Um, you

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Speaker 1: can't separate the two. You can't watch this movie without

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Speaker 1: not completely thinking about it or having it on the

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Speaker 1: just in the back of your brain. No, yeah, not completely.

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Speaker 1: And here we're using the specific example of Rosemary's Baby,

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Speaker 1: but we could be talking about the Cosby show, Louis Transparent,

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00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: a billion other things that Kevin Spacey has done, Woody Allen,

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Speaker 1: and we will come back to Woody Allen, whatever thing

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Speaker 1: that is important to you, that may be shaped you,

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Speaker 1: that has been disrupted in this way. But for this episode,

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Speaker 1: we got to talk about Roman Plansky, and we will.

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Speaker 1: But first we're gonna take a quick break for word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so let's talk about Roman Plansky. One year after this

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Speaker 1: film came out, roman Plansky's wife, Sharon Tate, was murdered

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Speaker 1: by the Manson family along with their unborn child and

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Speaker 1: kind of a disturbingly similar thing that happened Rosemary's Baby. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Less than a decade post Rosemary's Baby, Roman Planski fled

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Speaker 1: the United States for Europe after pleading guilty to having

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Speaker 1: sex with a minor, a thirteen year old Samantha Jane Gaily.

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Speaker 1: He's been there for the last forty years. Another woman,

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Speaker 1: Marianne Bernard, recently accused him of molesting her as a

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old in nine. Polanski is on the record

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Speaker 1: as describing the Me Too movement as a collective hysteria.

424
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: He's also says such gems like the pill has changed

425
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: greatly the women of our times masculine ized, sir. It

426
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: chases the way the romance from our lives. M m

427
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: m hmmm. I'd like to think he would just stay

428
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 1: silent on those issues. Out of all the people that

429
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: are unqualified to talk about this movement, I think you

430
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: might be one of the most unqualified. It's so fascinating, though,

431
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: isn't it that he was involved with this movie UM

432
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: Earlier this year, this very year, Polanski was expelled from

433
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, and he

434
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: is trying to appeal. I tried to get to the

435
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: bottom of whether or not he's still profits from his movies.

436
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: I couldn't, but I think it's safe to say that

437
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: he does UM. And that's that's something that for anytime

438
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: we stream Rose mis Baby, right, And for for me,

439
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: that is something that it's hard for me to like,

440
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: like go of even though I've read many arguments where

441
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: the author says, what is your measly whatever amount they're

442
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: going to make, how does that compare to that they're

443
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: not going to notice whether or not you do? But

444
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: I noted, Yeah, it does beg the question if I

445
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: go off of that premise of if they're not making

446
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: money from me, does that mean I'm okay with streaming

447
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: it for free? Like? Where is the line there? Um?

448
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: And I I asked, because I don't know. I have

449
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 1: these kind of vague rules in my head, and I

450
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 1: think a lot of us do. But ultimately they're they're

451
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: that they're vague rules. They're just sort of I can

452
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: be okay with this, and I can't be okay with this,

453
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: And like I said, the line is just drawn over

454
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: different issues and just at different levels of severity for

455
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: different people. So yeah, it's really hard to just make

456
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: a definitive rule like and also it's just like how

457
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: do you even make a rule like that? It's so vague,

458
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: Like if you do X and X next, then your

459
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: art should never be enjoyed ever again. But if you

460
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: do something that's like not too bad or like eventually forgivable,

461
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: then we can still watch your stuff or read your stuff.

462
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, it's definitely got to be that.

463
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: If there's anything I am sure of, it's got to

464
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: be on a case by case basis, And it's very

465
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: subjective in terms of you know, what one person would find,

466
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: Like I just can't enjoy this art anymore. Another person

467
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: might be able to just still separate the creator from

468
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: the art itself, because there is an argument to be

469
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: made about the fact that once the art is out

470
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: there in the world, it no longer becomes pretty of

471
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: the creator. It is now everyone's. But I do think,

472
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk about this more later, I think

473
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: it's just really difficult to separate the author from the work. Yeah,

474
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: we'll get we'll get into that more later. But one

475
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: of the reasons I wanted to talk about this example

476
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: Rosemary's Baby is the added layer of how it did

477
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: influence so many other movies and so many other television shows,

478
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: other creators, um how it still has these prescient gender

479
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: issues and the fact that the audience is meant to

480
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: side of Rosemary and film. Maybe that's obvious to say,

481
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: but not always. When it's a female character in a

482
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: horror movie, you're meant to be on her side side

483
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: from start to finish. Yes, And I do want to say,

484
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: please do not equate this with Roman Plansky is a

485
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: genius and therefore it's okay he gets a past, because

486
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: that's not what I'm saying at all. Um, it's not

487
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: okay what he did, and I mean, who gets a

488
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: pass anyway? And also, please don't ate this too, but

489
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: he made a feminist movie, so it evens out because

490
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Um. These are complex issues. There's no clear

491
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: gut answer, but those are not what we're saying at all. Um.

492
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: Dustin't often tried that argument when John Oliver confronted him

493
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: about harassment allegations at a Wag the document, saying I

494
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: would not have made that movie if I didn't have

495
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: an incredible respect for women. Now I can hear is

496
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: Donald Trump saying no one has more respect for women

497
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: than me. It doesn't even out. You can say that

498
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: all you want, but it doesn't work. But you know

499
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: who thinks he should get a pass from plants Key,

500
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: or at least a pass when it comes to film

501
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: festivals in neutral countries. About one hundred folks in the

502
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: film community who signed a letter in two thousand nine

503
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: demanding Roman Planskey's release after his arrest in Switzerland, including

504
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: Martin Scorsesey Wes Anderson, David Lynch, and Woody Allen. And yes,

505
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: it's time to talk about Woody Allen. Yeah, oh boy,

506
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: indeed are you Woody Allen Man. I'm a big Woody

507
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: Allen fans. At least I'm a fan of a lot

508
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: of his films, his silly ones like Take the Money

509
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: and Run Bananas and his more serious ones. I think

510
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: Manhattan is a fantastic film, But I remember the first

511
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: time I saw it. I think I was a freshman

512
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: in college and I was just like this flu Everyone

513
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: was cool with this, like the whole plot line of

514
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: him dating a seventeen year old high school student, and

515
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: he's clearly in his I mean, he always looked older

516
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: than I could never tell what aid you was back then,

517
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: but he appeared to be in his forties, maybe thirties,

518
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: let's just give him the benefit of the downstay thirties.

519
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: But it's still it's like he's dating a seventeen year

520
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: old high school student and that's like the point of

521
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: comedy and many scenes like it's meant to be funny

522
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: and laughed at. Right. Well, I am glad that you're here.

523
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: Then I'm gonna quiz you about some things, um because

524
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: I I'm not that big of a Woody Allen fan,

525
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: and it's not I just haven't experienced much of his work,

526
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: but um, ill, no, Wow, I felt like everyone saw

527
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: any hall All Annie's are required to see every movie

528
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: with an Annie and the title. You're right, that's I'm faulting.

529
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: I am messing up on the rule of annie's. But

530
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: in my defense, how did they spell it? Not the

531
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: same way? Yeah, that's correct, So I can wash my hands,

532
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: don't worry about it, all right? So yeah, what do

533
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: you allen? There's a whole other dimension to this Rosemary's

534
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: Baby discussion, and that is Mia Pharaoh and one step

535
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: removed from her. What do allen? When Rosemary's Baby started filming,

536
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: me a Pharaoh? I didn't know that she was married

537
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: to Frank Sinatra right when she was I want to

538
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: say eighteen, It could be like twenty one, but like

539
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: super young. She marries fifty year old Frank Sinatra. He

540
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: was twenty nine years older than her r um, and

541
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: they got divorced when Phara refused to leave the set

542
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: of Rosemary's Baby after filming went five weeks over, which

543
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: was kind of like when I was reading articles about it,

544
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: like yeah, bomass bitch. She didn't wait, so he wait.

545
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: He divorced her because he's like, you're gonna come home soon,

546
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: and she was like, nah, no, I have to film.

547
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: It's like exactly, that's a good Sinatra chandler. That's um okay.

548
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: So in her Woody Allen, Mia Pharaoh and Woody Allen

549
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: became a life partners for many years and made a

550
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: lot of films together. To um. He had an affair

551
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: with one of Pharaoh's daughters, Sunni, who was a teenage

552
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: girl in his care, and they later got married. On

553
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: top of that, there are allegations that Allen abused Pharaoh's

554
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: younger daughter Dylan, which Allen denies, and when asked about

555
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: his relationship with Sunny, Allen famously said, that's what it wants. Yeah,

556
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: in that case, that's never been truer. I just can't.

557
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, I don't even know where to

558
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: begin with that. I just don't understand how the heart

559
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 1: could want that if you helped raise this child and

560
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: then later married the child or married the person the

561
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: adult that the child grew into a I'm just at

562
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: a loss for words for how you could like where

563
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: does the attraction begin? Like you have to think about that. Yeah,

564
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: is that one of those things where it's like he

565
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 1: knew like from way before she was a legal adult.

566
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, this is going to be the woman

567
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: I marry one day or did he just wake up

568
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: as soon as she was legally like oh I think

569
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 1: I love you. Now I'm no longer you're legal guardian,

570
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: legal guardian, and now your husband god and love her.

571
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:04,439
Speaker 1: It's it's disgusting. Yeah, And this is one thing that,

572
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: like I said, I I haven't consumed a lot of

573
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 1: Woody Allen's work, but I have friends such as yourself

574
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: that have and are big fans. And one one thing

575
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: I heard when I was researching this is that it's

576
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: tough because people felt a personal connection to Woody Allen.

577
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 1: Like when they're watching a Woody Allen movie, they think

578
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: that is me. I can connect to this person. And

579
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: so when this comes out, it felt like his he

580
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: was betraying them. It felt very personal and like also

581
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: it was sort of an indictment on themselves. Why did

582
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: I feel connected to this person who turned out to

583
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: be kind of gross and a predator? What does that

584
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: say about me? And people who love his work? Um,

585
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: for something that you love to be taken away in

586
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: that manner, that sucks, that really sucks. And like I

587
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: feel like the most many of the aspects you conne

588
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: with Woody Allen on and a lot of his films

589
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: are romantic aspects, like in terms of just courtship, Yeah,

590
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: navigating a relationship. Um so yeah, that definitely makes it

591
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: very icky and very just difficult to kind of um square. Yeah,

592
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: and I would imagine I've kind of experienced it in

593
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: other non Woody Allen types of entertainment. But it does

594
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: make you question. For me, at least, it makes me question,

595
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,439
Speaker 1: what was this set like on these movies? Or am

596
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: I enjoying something that came at the pain of someone else?

597
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: And what are we just ignoring that? Like was everyone

598
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: complicit in that? Did people know what was going on

599
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: and they were determined to make a thing anyway and

600
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: to make money anyway? It's hard. Yeah, I don't know. Well,

601
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 1: with the Woody Allen thing, like I mean that all

602
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: happened after the string of movies that would a fair

603
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: maide right, Yeah, so at least you can at least

604
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 1: watch those movies without knowing that Mia Farrot was clumplicit

605
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: in anything, because that seemed to be a bombshell that

606
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: was dropped, Like I can only imagine what everyone the friends,

607
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: the media frenzy that would have caused like when it

608
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: did happen, Oh my goodness. But kind of parallel, I'd

609
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: like to make a comparison that's not near as creepy,

610
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: but it did. It is a comparison I made the

611
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: other day. Are you familiar with Celine Dion's husband. No,

612
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: so it's not that he was her father or anything

613
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 1: like that, but um, he was her manager. I can't

614
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: remember his name, but he was her manager from the

615
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 1: moment she kind of hit the scene and she had

616
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,240
Speaker 1: the scene young like from the moment like her voice developed.

617
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: I think she was twelve or thirteen, and she I

618
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: think she was like singing French at first. Um. Yeah,

619
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: she met her manager slash future husband, who is significantly

620
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: older than her by probably twenty thirty years, when she

621
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: was thirteen. And I remember like watching some VH one

622
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: interview of her talking about her love for her husband,

623
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: and she just seems so steadfast and absolutely resolved in

624
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: like her feelings and like and and you know, you

625
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: can kind of see that she did stay with him

626
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 1: until the end. He died not too long ago actually, Um,

627
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: And she said love has no age. And even while

628
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: she was saying that, and I believed her. I was like,

629
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: this is kind of creepy because you were twelve or

630
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: thirteen when you met him and he was working closely

631
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: with you, and then you, guys, you married him when

632
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: you were I think I think she was like nineteen. Wow. Yeah,

633
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: one funny thing before I get into serious things. You

634
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: were You mentioned this briefly before we came in here,

635
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: and for some reason, I always mixed up Celine Dion's share,

636
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: so I was picturing share different um. But another thing

637
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: that a lot of listeners have written into us about

638
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: is grooming, and that'll be its whole separate episode. But

639
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: it does sound like maybe there was an element of

640
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: grooming involved in that appear so yeah, and it it

641
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: does feel strange because it feels predatory to me when

642
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: someone so much older is in a relationship with someone younger.

643
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: But at the same time, it does that like love

644
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: knows no age. It's very effective messaging. I don't know

645
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,959
Speaker 1: if it's good or bad. I think it's mostly bad,

646
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: but there is a part of it where I'm like,

647
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: these are adult people. I mean, what business is it

648
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,720
Speaker 1: of mine? But it does feel very predatory, Yeah, for sure,

649
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: especially since he just like he worked with her so

650
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: closely for so long when she was very young. Yeah,

651
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: sure enough, right, and like I mean me looking back

652
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: at me even twenty one, she didn't. We were all

653
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: a bunch of John's knows. I do think that there

654
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: is a more societal acceptance and perhaps even encouragement for men,

655
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 1: older men to find younger women. Um. So this springs

656
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: us to Manhattan, which you you mentioned earlier. Um, and

657
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it, so if you want to talk

658
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: about the basic plot, you kind of went into it.

659
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, as I mentioned earlier, like it

660
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: mostly follows like his relationship with Diane Keaton's character, but

661
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: before that relationship really takes off, he is The movie

662
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: opens with him in a relationship with a seventeen year

663
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: old high school students who's very ambitious, and she's in

664
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: she's like, you know, studying to be I can't remember

665
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: something in a scholarly sense. She's ambitious, Um, as a

666
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: young high school or like going to college for the

667
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: first time. Yeah, he pretty much the whole time tells

668
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: her like this is like a fleeting. You're going to

669
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: meet somebody in college and it's gonna be great. But

670
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: you and I are having fun right now, and she

671
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: is like desperately in love with him, and like he

672
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: makes her cry because he just keeps telling her it's

673
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 1: like this is not going to work out, Like you're

674
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: in high school, and the whole time you're like, I

675
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: mean even the first time I saw this, even after

676
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: I this was before I knew about, um, you know,

677
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: his whole Me and Pharaoh marriage thing, I was like,

678
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: this is weird and creepy because from what I understand,

679
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 1: laugh at this. They don't ever address it as being

680
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 1: weird or strange. No, they don't. It's just kind of

681
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: accepted and like people question him for dating her in

682
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: the sense that like she's too young for you. You

683
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: should find somebody that's more like you're, I guess intellectual

684
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 1: contemporary yea, um, but they're never like, hey, this girl's

685
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: in high school. This is creepy. This is you know

686
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: you some people consider you should go to jail for this.

687
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 1: You know, nobody ever questions that, right, And he wrote

688
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: this into the script. This isn't like you know, something

689
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: that happened, like he willingly like came up with this.

690
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: Maybe he was priming the audience for his future intentions.

691
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not sure when this happened, like compared to

692
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: like when the news broke of Yeah, yeah, And from

693
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: I read essay after essay about this film. Um, I

694
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: never watched it, but I have read many essays, and

695
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: from what I understand, the viewers are meant to see

696
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: Tracy his seventeen year old's name, UM as far superior

697
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: to the other women in the movie who are bitter

698
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: and think too much and don't have good sex maybe

699
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: because they think too much. Definitely the thing too much

700
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: thing for sure. Yeah, there's a whole joke in there

701
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: that I like. Read it and I understood that what

702
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: he Allen thought. I should be on his side, but

703
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: I was on all of the bitter women's side, Like no,

704
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: they're they're actually right. I don't think you get this. Um.

705
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: Chasey seems unaware of her mortality UM, and by having

706
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: sex with her Isaac, which is why Allen's character UM

707
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: can forget his mortality as well, and he lists her

708
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: face as one of the reasons to go on living. UM.

709
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: So I guess we can add objectification to the list. Um. Yeah,

710
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: it just seems like such an interesting and kind of

711
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: horrifying like parallel two, what really happens. Yeah, it's definitely

712
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: life imitating art vice versa art imitating life, Like there's

713
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: no there's no getting around that. Yeah, and it's funny

714
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 1: like after like all this has become more talked about

715
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: in um in the the public consciousness. I actually haven't

716
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: watched Manhattan in a long time, since college, but it

717
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: was definitely one of my favorite Woody Allen films. But

718
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: the more I think about, the more I'm like, I

719
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: think there's a reason why I haven't gone back to it.

720
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: Definitely subconsciously. I don't think I've ever explicitly stated like

721
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: I'll never watch I'll never watch this movie again, but

722
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: I've definitely gone back to Annie Hall and some of

723
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: his other films, but and Crimes and Misdemeans, But yeah,

724
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: not that one. Well, it's interesting that you see that

725
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: because a lot of the information I got about this

726
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: whole thing, because again I haven't seen it, I got

727
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: from clear Debtoror's article what do we do with the

728
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: Art of Monstrous Men over the Paris Review, and it

729
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: came with a quote that I had to include because

730
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: it speaks to me so much. The women were wondering

731
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: why their partners and children didn't do the dishes. More,

732
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: the women were realizing the invidiousness of the dishwashing paradigm. Yes,

733
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: everyone knows that hate washing dishes. But also she said, like,

734
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: she's a huge Woody Allen fan, and it took her

735
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: a lot to go back to movies like any Hall,

736
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: but she could not watch Manhattan again. She couldn't get

737
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: over it. Yeah, it's just ickier and nickier the more

738
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: I think about it. That's it's quite possible I'll never

739
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: see that movie again. If not, If I do see

740
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: it again, it will be for different reasons more to

741
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: look at it through this lens and be like, well,

742
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: let's really study that, right, right, um and a dirt

743
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: or also mentions how when she's critiquing at work in

744
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 1: this way that many people, often men, will argue back

745
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 1: with her when she says, I can't watch Manhattan again,

746
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: something along the lines of is our work of genius

747
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: or you have to judge it on a technical level.

748
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: And these are arguments I have heard myself, and to me,

749
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: this relates a little bit to privilege. When a person

750
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: can connect more to the artist than the person of

751
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: the artists, that is wrong and I'm not above that

752
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: extent from that at all. But I think that if

753
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 1: you can connect to the artists in that way, then

754
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:09,760
Speaker 1: you are more able to excuse or defend their work. Um.

755
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 1: And these are I'm definitely guilty of that with John

756
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: Lennon specifically well, and to me, these are these are

757
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: inconsistent moral calculations that we all make all the time. Um.

758
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 1: Like the Republican Party is a great example. Sure, Brett

759
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh might have assaulted someone, but he might have returned

760
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: rov Wade, which is how a lot of Republicans, I

761
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: assume justified their support of him. In their head, they

762
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: didn't voice to sell out. But you know, you make

763
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: these trade offs gymnastics. I've said before on this show

764
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 1: and I'll say it again. I think people can do

765
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: amazing mental gymnastics to to paint themselves in a certain

766
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: light and to keep liking something that they really like. Mhm.

767
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: Well in terms of like Rosemary's Baby, inspiring something like Hereditary,

768
00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: a film like Hereditary, like in the same with the

769
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: that like the Beatles, music has completely changed landscape of

770
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: rock and pop, and you really can't separate their music

771
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: from the the timeline we're in in the way music

772
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: has progressed over the years. So how do you even

773
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: like listen to music period? Because I can tell you

774
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: how many songs remind me of this Beatles song or

775
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: that Beatles song. I mean, that's a great question. That's

776
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: a great question. I thought that it's defensible, but at

777
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: least John Lennon admitted his transgressions and said, like, you know,

778
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: I had a problem. One argument against that that train

779
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: of thought is how much art from women and from

780
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: people of color other marginalized groups that we never got

781
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: to consume are they never got to make because of

782
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: the bearers we societally put in place for them. So

783
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: that is something to keep in mind when we have

784
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: this conversation. I feel like now it's almost hard for

785
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 1: me to enjoy anything completely holistically without that like lingering

786
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: thought in my head, who did this person hurt to

787
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 1: get to where they are? Which is horrible but also

788
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: probably very true. Um, it reminds me I think I've

789
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: mentioned before in this show. Um, when I took the

790
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: g R E S the g R E exam. Uh,

791
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: there was the old g R E Exam. There was

792
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 1: a question on there that said, Um, basically it was

793
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: like and these are modern times, of news coverage. It

794
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 1: can there be anything close to approximating a hero? And

795
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: I said no, because there's too much information about someone.

796
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: There's no heroes out there, No heroes out there. Um No,

797
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 1: I don't think. I mean, I feel like I'm jaded too,

798
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:57,240
Speaker 1: But there's gotta be one. Maybe maybe Mr Rogers. God,

799
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 1: I live in fear that something terrible would come out

800
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,479
Speaker 1: about him. That would be the end of I'm going

801
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 1: under I'm just gonna go underground, and never would give

802
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: up it came out something Mr Rogers. Yeah, I didn't

803
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: learn about him until I was in college, and I have.

804
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: The more I read about him, and the more I

805
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: was just like, this is a beautiful human person. Um

806
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 1: so being of pure light and love. So I hope so. Alright,

807
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: But back to Woody Allen. In this article by dirt Or,

808
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: she points out who gets to judge genius? Why is

809
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: it that feelings, especially of a woman in this case,

810
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: evoked when consuming a piece of art aren't valid. That

811
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 1: they aren't watching it correctly, that they aren't feeling the

812
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: right things, That it's a failing on their part for

813
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 1: not being able to separate the art from the probably

814
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,760
Speaker 1: male artist. Um would it have been just as gross

815
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: if the sunny situation wasn't going on. This is no question.

816
00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: Yeah no, because at the very least you could just

817
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: fight like, oh, those are improper inappropriate thoughts, but not

818
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: inappropriate actions. I mean you can, you can fault a

819
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: lot of people for inappropriate thoughts, but at the very

820
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: least they don't those thoughts don't learn that body and

821
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: they don't act on them yet. Right, So yeah, I

822
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: would rather be that than the real life example example. Right.

823
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 1: Um uh. And this is something that, like beyond a

824
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: personal level, people are struggling with on an academic level.

825
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: I read many accounts of professors saying they wouldn't want

826
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: to show Rosemary's Baby in their classrooms, um, unless they

827
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: had given context for the situation. Um, or they wouldn't

828
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:48,959
Speaker 1: watch it outside of classroom period. But all of this,

829
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: or can we just remove plant Sky? I mean, yes,

830
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: he is responsible for just this perfectly or near perfectly

831
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: crafted film, But can we remove him from this from

832
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: the whole equation in the sense that he didn't come

833
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: up with a story and it is a perfectly faithful

834
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 1: adaptation of the book. Well, that is something to the author.

835
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: That is something that makes it interesting. Um, and again

836
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: those are those gradations. Yeah, Like some people have argued

837
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: it that way that I can separate it out, because

838
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,919
Speaker 1: really he was just directly transcribing this book that someone

839
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: else did. Who knows what the author dude, I'm just kidding.

840
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about him. I don't know. I

841
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: don't want to slander him necessarily. But yeah, again, for

842
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: some people that's okay. For some people that's enough, and

843
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: for some people it's not. And that's kind of the

844
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: whole point of this conversation. And like I said, it's frustrating,

845
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: but it is. It's all about you and you're your

846
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: consumption of art and how your life experiences and how

847
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: they meet this piece of art and how it impacts

848
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: you and how you learn about a lot of these terrible,

849
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 1: you know, transgressions, like after the fact that you've already

850
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,280
Speaker 1: consumed this art and it has become ingrained in your psyche.

851
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: It is a part of who you are, at least

852
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: in terms of you know, your your worldview and your

853
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 1: appreciation of art in general. Yeah. Absolutely, And um, we

854
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 1: do have we do have some possible answers heavy quotes,

855
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 1: but first we have one more quick break for word

856
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: from our sponsor, m and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Alright,

857
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,320
Speaker 1: So a couple of people have written about this whole

858
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 1: thing of how do we how do we handle this art?

859
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: How do we consume this art? Um? Matt Zeller's sites

860
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 1: is one of them, and he wrote a out this

861
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: whole thing in regards to Jeffrey Tamber over at Vulture,

862
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: and he asserts that it was never our job, are

863
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: being the audience um to separate the art from the artist.

864
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: It was Jeffrey Tamber's job, or the artist's job. He

865
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 1: messed up, and now the art suffers for it. And

866
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: it's a ripple effect too, because movies and TV aren't

867
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 1: made in a vacuum like we were talking about. There

868
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: are loads of people who didn't do awful things involved,

869
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: and dozens size points out that Arrested Development, a show

870
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: that I love, uh and that Tamber was a part of,

871
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: is easier to stomach than watching something like House of Cards,

872
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: because in theory, you could skip scenes with Jeffrey Tamber

873
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: in them in Arrest Deveilment, but he can't really skip

874
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: scenes with Kevin Spacey and them in a House of Cards.

875
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: He is that's a Kevin Spacey vehicle. Yeah, And I

876
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 1: feel like that's a proper distinction to make. Like there

877
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,879
Speaker 1: are plenty of movies out there, Um, oh Glenn Gary

878
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 1: and Ross, good example, Um, Kevin Spacey's in it. I

879
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 1: can still watch it. It's not a Kevin Spacey vehicle.

880
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 1: He definitely plays a prominent role and his scenes are

881
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: gonna be tough to watch because the whole time will

882
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: be like you are a person. Yeah, but like you know,

883
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: I can't not watch that movie. It's got Pacino, it's

884
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: got like Baldwin and his best performance. I feel like

885
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: we're going to be watching this later because I've never

886
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: seen it. You've never seen it. Chandler and on a

887
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 1: ma'm a marathon marathon? Sorry I digress. Sure. Well, all

888
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: of this goes again to show how many considerations there

889
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: are when you are calculating this whole thing. To me,

890
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: and I think for a lot of people, knowing this

891
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: stuff about someone knowing that they've done something terrible, it

892
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: takes you out of it and it makes you wonder

893
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: what went into this art that you love that was heinous,

894
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: um things that other people tried to cover up or

895
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 1: ignore it. And thinking about this and doing the research

896
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: for this. To me, it makes more sense than ever

897
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 1: that you can't separate yourself from the artist. You can try,

898
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 1: like you can, you can approach and do your best,

899
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,760
Speaker 1: but to me, like that's what art is. You're bringing

900
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 1: yourself and your experiences to a piece of art, and

901
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 1: you're experiencing it on a personal level. So if you

902
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: know in your life that this person did this thing

903
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: and that maybe it relates to something that's happened to

904
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: you or something that's happened to someone you love, you

905
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 1: can't separate yourself from that. I think that you can

906
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 1: get very close, but I don't think you can. Also

907
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: think there's levels to it depending on the medium. Um

908
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: in terms of like film and TV, as we already stated,

909
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: I think multiple times now like it takes the hundreds

910
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 1: poticially thousands of people to make a single season of

911
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:58,720
Speaker 1: television or a single film. Um So it is also

912
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 1: the creative input of many other people besides that one

913
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 1: or possible more, um bad person. Where is something like

914
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: stand up comedy, you are definitely getting the person, Like

915
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 1: the art is almost who the person is. Maybe not,

916
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: but definitely a high percentage you know, Like it's very

917
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: hard to differentiate, separate Louis Kay's jokes from Louis k Yeah.

918
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: And I think depending on all of these this scale,

919
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: whatever scale you have in your head of I can

920
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 1: accept this, I can't accept this, um in depending like

921
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 1: unfairly or not, whether or not, like it was the

922
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 1: lead actor and they are the ones that did the thing.

923
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: I think that's more difficult, just because they're right in

924
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: your face the whole town, whole time exactly, are like

925
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 1: the director. I I was devastated when I learned that

926
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 1: um not director of HARVEYT. Weinstein produced Scream, which is

927
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: one of my favorite movies. Right, I didn't know it.

928
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: I mean, that's another one where the producer in general

929
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 1: seems to act as the money man, the guy that

930
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: gets it done, gets the movie made, but doesn't really

931
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: have much artistic input. So that's at least in terms

932
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: of my mental gymnastics. Weinstein, Yeah, he's had his hand

933
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: in so many films that I love. That. To me,

934
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 1: it's like the Beatles. Would you call that a paradox?

935
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 1: The Beatles paradox? The conundrum? The conundrum? Yeah, um yeah,

936
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: the conundrum where it's like it's almost impossible to separate

937
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: all of the movies he produced and say like, well,

938
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 1: you can't watch any of those. Another thing that I

939
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 1: wanted to bring up before it closed out here is

940
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: what about the monstrous acts committed by those that are

941
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: long dead? Um, the books that we read in school

942
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 1: that we know people is their statute of limitation? Well, exactly,

943
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 1: I feel like these feel different, um, And I haven't

944
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: been able to voice a good reason why, other than

945
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,439
Speaker 1: maybe like it's easier to separate ourselves from that time.

946
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: It's easier to justify like, oh, yeah, it was a

947
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: different time. And it also just feels like that dude's dead, right,

948
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: whereas like this guy's my contemporary and he's living in

949
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 1: my same times and committing these things. Um. Yeah, it's

950
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: still hard for me to completely detach um. But it

951
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 1: does feel as though they're not completely real just because

952
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 1: they're long gone. Um, in the same level of connection

953
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 1: isn't there because they were living in a different time

954
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 1: than you, potentially different I mean you could say different

955
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: worlds than you. They have different concerns, but people who

956
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 1: live in our time they share the same concerns. They

957
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: share at the same time. It's are you thinking of

958
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: a specific example I'm just curious of like an old

959
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 1: work where the creators dead end and he was not

960
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 1: a good person. Not a specific example now, but I

961
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 1: just know recently this came up when I was in

962
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: a lift and the lift driver was very angry, um

963
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: about what had happened to James Rinko, and uh, he

964
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 1: bought up some examples of like, well what about this

965
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 1: book where this author did this thing in eighteen hundreds

966
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:37,959
Speaker 1: and um. There's a website called Rotten Apples and it's

967
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 1: like rotten tomatoes, but you can use it to see

968
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 1: if any creeps were involved in a particular piece of art.

969
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: And I assume after you see this you would avoid

970
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 1: that piece of art. But their claim is to make

971
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: ethical media consumption easier, but it's pretty inconsistent with how

972
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: it defines creep U Like, if you type in Johnny Depp,

973
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: he won't pop up as a creep. It goes to show,

974
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 1: in my opinion, how hungry we are for a simple

975
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: solution when one does not exist. We want to go

976
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: to a website and have them tell us, don't watch this,

977
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: just give me a list of things I can enjoy

978
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: so I don't have to make the decision for myself.

979
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, if we're sounding judgmental, I am not. I'm

980
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: assuming you are not, because I would love that too.

981
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: It would be nice. Yeah, but it doesn't exist. It

982
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: is a very personal thing. UM. In the end, it's

983
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 1: up to you and how you engage with it or

984
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 1: are how you don't engage with it. Um. But to

985
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 1: end on a semi happy note, we can push your

986
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 1: change as consumers, Like maybe we can't change too much

987
01:00:54,440 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: in the past, but moving forward we can, UM, and

988
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 1: I think that we should being vocal about the changes

989
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: we want to see. Is is one way that a

990
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 1: lot of us we can we can do that. Kevin

991
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,160
Speaker 1: Spacey was replaced in All the Money in the World,

992
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 1: which of course was largely a financially motivated decision, but

993
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: it was also thanks to people pushing for it on

994
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 1: social media. You can vote with your dollars and what

995
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: arn't you support? And like we said in the beginning,

996
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 1: the fact is, this is a symptom of a much

997
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 1: larger problem that UM we're going to have to tackle. UM.

998
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: If someone's a jerk or worse, they don't get a pass. UM,

999
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: stop hiring them. If you can don't work with them,

1000
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: let others know about their bad behavior, and I know

1001
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: these things are easier said than done, especially when you're

1002
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 1: you're just starting out. Um on sets, make sure there's

1003
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,960
Speaker 1: a healthy work environment for everyone. Hold people accountable for

1004
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: their actions, no matter how big quote they are, or

1005
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 1: how much of a genius they are, or if they're

1006
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: your friend. Like we said in our episode on what

1007
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 1: if the accuser is a man, accountability only works if

1008
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 1: it's for everybody. Make way for different storytellers folks who

1009
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 1: have been kept out of this arena. Hire more women

1010
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: and minorities and leadership positions. We've seen in the case

1011
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: of Weinstein, the Weinstein Company and Mario Batali's company, women

1012
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 1: taking over leadership of these companies and making decisions on

1013
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 1: how to proceed, which might include letting something go away

1014
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 1: completely to make way for something else, something new. Thank

1015
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 1: you so much for being with us today, Chandler. I

1016
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,919
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Um. I'm I've been very nervous this whole time,

1017
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 1: so please don't, please don't slay me. This is my

1018
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 1: second podcast I've ever been a part of. Yeah, I'm

1019
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 1: generally behind the scenes. I'm an engineer and editor. Yes,

1020
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 1: and he is a good friend of mine and I

1021
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 1: asked him to do this, So yes, please be kind

1022
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 1: to Chandler. I'm sure we're gonna go have a fun

1023
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 1: movie marathon later. And um, for you listeners, I know

1024
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: this isn't like the most wrapped up, tied up of answers,

1025
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: probably very frustrating, but if you have a way that

1026
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: you deal with this, or that you've approached this, please

1027
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: email us. Our email is mom Stuff at how stuff

1028
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 1: works dot com. You can also find us on Twitter

1029
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,840
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast and on Instagram at stuff Mo've

1030
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: Never told You. Thank you as always to a producer

1031
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 1: Andrew Howard, and thanks to you for listening.