WEBVTT - You Are Not Alone With Postpartum Depression 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:07.720 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:13.960 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:16.479 Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:22.640 should Know. The Bummer Edition. Man, we're hoping to shine 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:24.720 a light on something to help people out. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.080 That's right, the edition. You know how we do these 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.479 playlist once a quarter now, which, by the way, I 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.239 hope people are enjoying those, sort of collecting things in 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:37.519 groups and releasing them once a quarter in groups of 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:39.960 ten or twelve. I thought it was kind of a 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:41.959 fun idea and we've been enjoying it. But maybe one 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.600 day something we can bucket is just really sad, joke 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.760 free episodes that we feel like are almost like a 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:50.919 public service announcement. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:51.680 For sure. 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:53.480 We just call them Bummer Episodes. 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.960 You need to hear, right, I think that's a great title. 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:59.400 Let's do that. We have enough for sure. 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:01.240 Yeah, I mean this would definitely be one of them, 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.160 because we're talking about postpartum depression and sort of the 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:13.160 general bucket of post and even pre natal and during 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:19.360 natal troubles that women go through because there are, you know, 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:23.160 several subcategories that they kind of place under postpartum depression. 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.240 But it is a real serious thing that affects you know, 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:31.520 I saw ten to fifteen percent. I think Dave helped 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:33.040 us with this, and he said one in eight, which 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:37.240 is about twelve percent of women experience this. And it's 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.480 one of those things that is not talked about enough 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.280 to where it seems like the numbers could be higher 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.840 because people are still ashamed to admit this kind of 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:47.920 thing happens. 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:53.120 Yeah, there is a definite stigma on this, to varying 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:58.240 degrees depending on your culture, ethnic group. Yeah, but basically 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.720 across the board, you're going to find a stigma against 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.800 a new mother who can't get it together for her baby. 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:10.200 That's kind of like what people sometimes look at it as. 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:13.000 And if you were basically being looked at like that 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:17.160 and you're already down on yourself because you're not performing 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:21.520 perfectly to your own standards or whatever that heaped on 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.560 top of it, you're probably not gonna be like everybody, 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:26.840 I need help. You're gonna just kind of dig in 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.240 and just keep trying to go. And that is the 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.680 exact opposite of what you're supposed to do with any 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.960 of what are called maternal mental health issues. There's a 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:41.120 whole umbrella term. It's not just postpartum depression or perinatal depression. 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:43.520 There's a bunch of other ones we'll talk about a 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.640 little bit too, but all of them add up to 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:49.680 you got to ask for help. You also have to 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:53.480 be on the lookout for needing to offer help to 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.360 the new mother too, if you're the father or a 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:58.120 family member or a friend or something. 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.240 Yeah, it's a brutal situation where I mean, giving birth 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:06.160 is a you know, it can be a very wonderful, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.639 joyous thing, but no matter how you slice it, it's 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:14.360 it's a very big sort of and traumatic doesn't always 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:18.480 necessarily I think mean something awful, but just such a 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.080 big life event that then you're then expected like and 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.280 now it's supposed to be the best thing ever, and 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.040 you're gonna be the happiest you've ever been immediately despite 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.799 these huge hormonal swings, right, and you're gonna be a 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:33.720 perfect mom. You're gonna be such a great mom. You're 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:35.640 gonna be a perfect mom. It's just it's just so 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.760 much pressure, and so yeah, this is a bit of 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:39.960 a PSA for sure. 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.440 For sure. And hit you hit something on the nose, 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:48.120 the being perfect immediately. I mean, being perfect is too 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.440 high an expectation anyway. Nobody's perfect. But the idea that 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.160 you're just supposed to immediately click with your kid and 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.720 just now you're a perfect mom or a great mom 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.920 like that is not how it plays out very often, 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:02.360 I would guess most of the time. It day. 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:04.360 It's a process exactly. 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:08.640 So, like I said, postpartum depression or perry natal I'm 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.880 just gonna call it postpartum I basically don't know anybody 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.320 who's ever called it pery natal depression. Yeah, so we're 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.200 just gonna call it postpartum depression, with the caveat that 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.960 it doesn't just happen after birth. It can happen while 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:23.960 during the pregnancy as well. 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.200 Right, Yeah, and up to a year following birth as well. 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.560 For sure. So again this falls under the umbrella term 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:35.240 of maternal mental health. There's also some others postpartum anxiety, 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.559 postpartum obsessive compulsive disorder. We'll talk about those a little 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:43.560 bit later. But when you put all of these things together, 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.680 you get a really bleak picture of mothers in the 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.560 United States, whereas the rest of the world is doing 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.200 better and better with maternal mental health. The US keeps 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:59.760 getting worse and worse, and I mean like a lot worse. 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.080 Yeah. There was a CDC study that found that rates 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.960 of postpartum depression were seven times higher in twenty fifteen 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.360 than they were in two thousand and between twenty sixteen 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.840 and twenty twenty three, new moms reported nearly sixty five 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:19.040 percent increase of fair to poor mental health. It is, 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:23.040 oh man, it is the leading cause of death among 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:27.599 new mothers now in the United States, with suicide and 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.200 drug overdose accounting for twenty two percent of all postpartum 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:34.600 maternal deaths in the United States. So crazy, you know, 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:36.880 maternal death rates. You usually look at it as like, 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.520 you know, something tragic happened in the birth, like physically 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.920 or biologically. And in the United States, the leading cause 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.480 of death is suicide and drug overdoses. 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.400 Yeah, I mean, and this is the highest in the 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:54.640 developed world by far, and that increases the highest in 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.840 the developed world, right, So it's it's a crisis in 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.760 the United States. It's a crisis worldwide, but in the 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:07.080 United States it's like a five alarm fire apparently. Yeah, 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.640 I'd be really interested to know what the problem is, 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:16.440 what's behind those figures are underneath those figures same. You 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:20.760 think it's a the the the United States transition toward 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.600 the becoming the society from a Handmaid's tale. 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:25.880 Yeah, I'm hansome to do with it. 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:30.280 So one of the other things about the postpartum depression 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.800 too that's really problematic is and you kind of touched 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:36.880 on this early on. I think something like half of 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:43.240 cases just go undiagnosed, in part because even doctors sometimes 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.040 are like, you'll be fine, just get over, just get 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.200 back in there, you know, give it the old college 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:52.359 try and families too, And I think that that self 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.599 inflicted stigma too that new mothers have. 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.960 Yeah, and you know it's it's one of the reasons 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.640 is because and you know, they have screw tools. Now, 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:05.440 there's one called the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale to determine 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.880 like when that line has crossed because the the baby 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:13.840 blues or the postpartum blues or something that happens a lot, 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.920 like maybe even most pregnancies, you end up for you know, 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.080 up to like a week or two having these hormonal 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.960 swings where there's like overlapsing symptoms with what ends up 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:27.640 being PPD. So that's why a lot of reason it 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.360 becomes undiagnosed is because people think like, well, this is 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.800 just the baby blues. I'm surfering from some sadness and 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:38.960 crying and because and feeling overwhelmed, certainly because this is 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.040 maybe my first time. Although I should point out that 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.160 postpartum is not limited to first birth at all, right, 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.200 it can happen with any like their third birth, the 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.480 third kid, fourth kid, whatever. But the overlap is so 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:54.960 great that a lot of times I think people are like, well, 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:56.960 it'll pass, it'll pass, it's just the baby blues. But 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:58.560 if it goes on for more than a week or two, 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:00.800 you're probably in PP territory. 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:06.200 Yeah, it's not that the postpartum depression is a like 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.880 a different thing than the baby blues. It's the severity 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.280 of the symptoms, the same symptoms and the duration of 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.120 those same symptoms that really differentiate it and make it 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.800 something that like you need help for, Like you need 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.280 to get professional help. It's not just going to go 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.280 away on its own, or if it does, it's going 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.600 to you're going to grind through years of it locally 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:31.800 unnecessarily because we didn't say this yet. It's very highly treatable. 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:34.240 Yeah, for sure, that's the good news, and we'll get 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.719 to that. But you know, some of those symptoms we 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:43.280 should list are loss of appetite, difficulty sleeping, feeling worthlessness 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:50.040 or maybe even guilt or shame, anxiety, panic, irritability, anger, 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.800 big time mood swings, difficulty with bonding with your baby, 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.760 and again are these can be the baby blues or 0:08:57.800 --> 0:08:59.680 if they're super severe and go on long enough, like 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.560 you said, it develops into PPD. And it's the kind 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:05.800 of thing that can also start several weeks two a 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.280 month later, So you got to keep an eye out, 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.040 like if those first couple of weeks or like you're like, 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.160 oh man, I managed to dodge this, it also might 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:18.679 start later and that's okay. You just need to be aware, right. 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:25.160 I said that there's other disorders under the umbrella of 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:29.200 maternal mental health issues, and another one is postpartum psychosis, 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:34.000 and it's essentially what it sounds like. The mental health 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.400 disorder can become so pronounced after birth that you may 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:44.680 suffer from delusions, You may become paranoid, you may be disoriented, 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:48.640 you may feel disassociated from the people around you or 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:53.200 the world itself or reality. And that is considered so 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.920 postpartum depression is something you need to seek help for. 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:00.520 Postpartum psychosis is considered a you immediately take a trip 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.680 to the er when you or the people around you 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:07.240 figure out that you are suffering from postpartum psychoasis. It's like, 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:09.760 get in the car, maybe you can throw on a 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:11.560 robe and just go to the er. 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.120 Yeah, and it's very rare. We should say it's one 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.160 out of every one thousand berths. But they say that 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.800 because very sadly, about four point five percent of the 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.040 cases of that psychosis result in harm to the baby 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:30.280 and five percent result in suicide. And you know, if 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:34.200 you've ever seen some terrible news report about like a 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.760 mom that said, you know, God told me to drown 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:41.600 my baby, that's what we're talking about here. Because delusions 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.360 of grandeur, a lot of times religious in nature, obsessive 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.679 thoughts about harming you or harming your baby, extreme paranoia 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.520 like that kind of thing. That's that's what falls under 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:54.240 the postpartum psychosis spanner. 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:58.360 Yeah, And from researching postpartum psychosis, they found that there 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:03.400 are some additional risk factors. Seems like the number one 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.120 risk factor for developing it is if you have a history, 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:11.840 whether personal or familial, of bipolar disorder, and that if 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:17.560 you start having sleep loss that triggers abouts of mania, 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:20.760 that is a really big red flag that you are 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:25.439 at a great risk of going on to develop postpartum psychosis. 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.120 Meaning so sleep loss which you already are getting from 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:32.880 just having a new baby, but if that triggers mania, 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.640 that's a big red flag and that's probably what kicks 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.120 the whole thing off, is that loss of sleep. It's 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:43.480 like crazy important and it's nuts that evolution didn't take 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.320 that into account, like, oh, yeah, we need to make 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.640 sure everybody sleeps after this, stays awake for the next 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:53.800 two years because it'll drive people crazy, like that can 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:57.960 trigger that all of these maternal mental health issues. 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:00.319 Yeah, I mean that can be rough on a family. 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.120 We got very very lucky with Ruby and that she 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.600 was a pretty good sleeper from early on, but I've 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:10.920 heard some nightmare stories and it's really tough. Sleep is 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.040 so so important. I think another thing we didn't point 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:18.640 out was for the postpartum psychosis, it's almost always a 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.599 first time pregnancy too, which is differentiates it from postpartum 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:28.640 general postpartum depression. But you know, some similar risk factors 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:32.360 for regular PPD. If you have a history of depression 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.760 or anxiety, you're more likely. If you had a childhood 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:40.240 trauma that you experienced, if you underwent infertility treatment, you 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:44.120 may be more likely to if it's an unplanned pregnancy, 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.120 or if you're a low income mother, especially if you're 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.360 like literally living in poverty, they experience PPD at twice 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:54.040 the rate of higher income moms. And there are also 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.320 a couple of biological factors if you suffer from anemia 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.360 or hypothyroidism, and then it can be genetic. I think 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.559 depending on what study you've seen, us seen anywhere from 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:10.000 fourteen to thirty percent have like potentially a genetic factor, 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:10.840 like inheritable. 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.480 Oh really, I hadn't seen that at all. Let's talk 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:22.800 about postpartum er perinatal OCD and perinatal mood and anxiety 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:27.160 disorder real quick too. Okay, yeah, so POCD. This is 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:29.080 this to me sounds like the hardest to deal with, 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.760 because I think you're probably the least likely to step 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.679 forward and say I need some help. Everybody. But it's 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:40.800 obsessive compulsive disorder that develops way more quickly than typical 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:46.880 obsessive compulsive disorder, usually very shortly after birth or after 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:53.200 the baby's born, and it's you know, like ritual behaviors 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.520 like checking on the baby incessantly, worrying that the baby's 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:01.280 going to get contaminated with germs, and lots of intrusive 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.520 thoughts that can be super disturbing. 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.520 Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's a natural 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.480 tendency if you've, especially for a first time parent, to 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.640 have this new, seemingly very fragile, tender thing that you're 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.440 in charge of keeping alive. It's a pretty natural instinct, 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:22.320 I think to maybe think like, they're so small and 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:27.640 so fragile. So my dumb advice just as a parent, 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:31.600 is like they're they're more robust than you think, and 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:36.560 they're made to survive, and they're made to live generally speaking, 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.440 so you have that on your side. But I can 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:41.960 see how it's pretty easy for maybe someone to go 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.680 down this road of worrying about germs or checking on 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.360 the baby every like ten minutes in the middle of 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:52.560 the night, and to become sort of obsessive this. The 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:58.520 POCD can cross the line into some even unwanted sexual obsessions, 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.760 like mother apparently can have sexualized images flashing through their 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.200 mind while they're changing a diaper, which is just sort 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.160 of creates a cycle of you thinking like, what's wrong 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.240 with me? What's going on? I'm having this weird thing 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:16.360 flash through my head? Right, And in reality, that's all 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:20.400 it is, is just like asleep, or your hormones or 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:25.840 something just really unusual that flashed through your head. And 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.560 as an intrusive thought, it does not mean that that's 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.920 who you are or what or you're leading to some 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:33.240 awful outcome. 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.680 Right, And I think that's kind of worth saying again, Chuck, 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:38.840 because this is the kind of thing that you would 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:40.800 not who you're going to tell that to? Oh, and 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.280 having sexualized thoughts about our baby? Yeah, right, you're not 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.240 going to tell that to anybody. It's going to be 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.960 so tough to admit that. So you have to know 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.200 that it's not you. It is your hormones, it is 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:56.280 not you. You do you have not suddenly developed a 0:15:56.320 --> 0:16:00.960 sexual attraction to infants or children, like, it's not you. 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.440 So if you're having thoughts like this, you're not alone. 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:07.160 It's actually more common than you would think, And like, 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:09.440 you can get treatment for this, and you should get 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.760 treatment for it, because you're probably really being hard on 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:13.680 yourself right now. 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.160 Yeah, and you know, and if you give into that thought, 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.640 then that's when you're maybe avoiding bathing your baby or 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:24.680 avoiding caring and holding for your baby. So it's a 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.160 tough thing to come forward and talk to people. So 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:29.760 that's why it's really great to have a great support 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:34.080 system of other moms, friends and families to people to 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:37.240 lean on, because I guarantee you, if you say the 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.600 weirdest thought you've had out loud in a group of 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.120 moms that will be a couple of them, then they 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.800 are like, I had the same thoughts, It's okay. 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.880 Right, yeah, yeah, hopefully you have a group like that 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:49.040 or confined one, you know. 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:50.480 Yeah. 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:55.080 Then there's some postnatal mood and anxiety disorder, which essentially 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:59.640 is a really terrible positive feedback loop to where you 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.440 feel like you're not bonding with your baby well enough 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:06.320 or fast enough, and so you start to become anxious, 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.399 which the baby picks up on, and the baby becomes 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.760 distressed or less likely to connect with you or pay 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:15.720 attention to you, which makes it harder for you to 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.280 read the baby, which makes it less likely for you 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.439 to bond in any kind of quick fashion and it 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:23.600 just keeps going in this cycle. 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:26.560 Yeah, for sure. And you know what, I want to 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:30.440 recommend a podcast because if you maybe you are a 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:32.159 little more isolated and you don't feel like you have 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.560 this or or if you just don't have this sort 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:40.679 of support system around you. Our old buddy Jesse Thorn, 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.359 who runs the Maximum Fund Network and co hosts with 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:48.399 Judge John Hodgman with our pal his wonderful wife, Teresa Is. 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.159 She's just the best. And I don't think they do 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.720 it anymore, but Teresa and biz Ellis had a show 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.600 called One Bad Mother. Oh yeah, I remember that for 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:00.399 a long time and I'm pretty sure they still but 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.880 they did it for many, many years, and One Bad 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:07.520 Mother was just a great outlet and support system for 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.280 just this kind of stuff. For you know, the message 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:13.320 was always like you're doing just fine, You're doing okay. 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:15.520 You think you're the worst, and you're really the best, 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.880 And like, you know, if you're having a hard time 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.199 and you're you feel like you're alone in this, like 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.960 turn on that podcast, like do something like that to 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:25.600 know that you're not alone out there. 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.520 Right and pour yourself a mega pine of wine and 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:33.639 treat yourself to the Bad Mom's Trilogy in one sitting. 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:38.200 That's right, So you want to take a break, Yeah. 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.520 Let's take a break and we'll get into some statistics 0:18:40.560 --> 0:19:05.680 about other communities and how they deal with this. All right, everyone, 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:11.640 we're back. We promise talk about statistics, and in this case, 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.320 there are some pretty stark racial disparities when it comes 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:19.200 to PPD as far as the incidents of occurrence and 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.359 very sadly treatment. Up to forty percent of black and 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.040 Latina moms suffer from PPD, which is about twice the 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:29.800 rate of non Hispanic white moms, and single black mothers 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:33.399 are six times more likely than the general population to 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:40.320 experience it, really sadly. Latino women and Black women are 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:44.360 fifty seven percent and forty one percent, respectively, less likely 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.000 to start treatment for PPD than white women. 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.280 Right, And there's a lot of reasons for why they're 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.920 less likely to start treatment. In part there's a stigma, 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.920 just like with any culture. I think in Latino culture 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.680 that stigma can be even stronger than white or Black culture. 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.159 But for say black women in particular, it can often 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:09.800 go undiagnosed because it doesn't present as the classic symptoms 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:14.679 that the embra scale is designed to detect rather than 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:22.399 depressive symptoms. Black mom might have irritability, self criticism, deep fatigue, insomnia. 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:26.920 These are not all necessarily shared by all new mothers, 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.240 and so it just the doctor just might miss it. 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.960 They might be like, hey, you're just agro stop being 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:33.840 I grow. 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.159 Right, you know, yeah, I think they came up with 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:41.159 a different a different scale just for black mothers, right. 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:46.840 Yeah, the Jackson Hogue Phillips Contextualized Stress Measure, which next 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.800 time you have a party, give that out as a 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:51.480 party favor for guests. 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:53.760 Yeah, for sure. But that's great that they were like, hey, 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.200 we have a we have a hole in our treatment 0:20:57.240 --> 0:20:59.560 plan here as far as you've been diagnosing this in 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:01.720 black woms. Right, so they came up with their own scale, 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:07.399 which is awesome. Basically everybody, The American College of Obstetricians 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:12.119 and Gynecologists, the AMA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, everyone 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:17.040 says recommends that everybody should be screened for prenatal or sorry, 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:20.520 perinatal depression, But very sadly, less than twenty percent of 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:24.080 all women are screened for these mental health disorders, and 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:27.119 those numbers are a lot lower for women of color. 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:31.400 Right, So those are reasons why they might not actually 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:37.679 go seek out treatment for PPD. There's also reasons why 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.639 they're more likely to suffer from PPD in the first place, 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:44.160 and those seem to center on social determinants of health. 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:45.960 Yeah, which is like. 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:51.040 Your environment, your income level, the amount of free time 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:53.640 you might even have to go see the doctor. All 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:57.240 of these things tend to be less than what a 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:01.280 white mother would experience, and all of them help increase 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:04.200 the likelihood of experiencing postpartum depression. 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:05.320 Yeah, for sure. 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.960 So regardless Chuck, of whatever your ethnic or racial group, 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:15.280 there are essentially the same causes I mean, PPD, even 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:18.439 though it might manifest itself differently. Even though access to 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:24.679 help for PPD is different, those are all human made obstacles. Yeah, 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:28.720 the biological basis for it is the same in every case. 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:35.200 And essentially it's a combination of hormones and the stark, 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:38.400 raving horror that is becoming a new pit. 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:41.680 Yeah for sure. Like we were saying, you're thrown into 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.080 this brand new thing where your first charge is like, 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:46.600 all right, keep this baby alive. 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:49.119 Oh I cannot imagine. 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.320 I mean I remember, and this is like I imagine 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:56.879 it's the same with adoption as with it just you know, 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:00.679 regular birth, but you know, all of and someone just 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:04.360 hands you a baby and the nurses see the look 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:07.880 on your face, and hopefully the nurses are all as 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:11.120 great as ours were, as they're just like, you're doing fine. 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:13.560 They told us. What I said was like, hey, these 0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:16.600 babies are meant to stay alive. You're gonna be just fine. 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:21.320 Just feed them this way, and you're on the right 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:25.760 track by just getting food into their body. And so, 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:28.879 you know, like I said, you know, evolution has happened 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:32.040 in such a way where they want these babies to live. 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:34.080 So you've already got a bit of a head start, 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:39.719 but being bombarded by hormones and a change in hormones 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:43.080 is definitely something that's hard to deal with because your 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:47.080 body's bombarded with hormones because you're pregnant to help you, 0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:50.080 you know, to help you be successfully pregnant and to 0:23:50.080 --> 0:23:53.679 stay pregnant. And then immediately after, within like seventy two hours, 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:57.120 most of these hormones go back to their previous state, 0:23:57.200 --> 0:23:59.840 and that's just a big break to throw on. 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:04.200 Yeah, it's pretty mean of evolution really to just be like, 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:06.520 here's all the stuff that you need to have a baby. 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:09.679