1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 2: should Know. The Bummer Edition. Man, we're hoping to shine 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: a light on something to help people out. 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: That's right, the edition. You know how we do these 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: playlist once a quarter now, which, by the way, I 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: hope people are enjoying those, sort of collecting things in 9 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: groups and releasing them once a quarter in groups of 10 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: ten or twelve. I thought it was kind of a 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,959 Speaker 1: fun idea and we've been enjoying it. But maybe one 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: day something we can bucket is just really sad, joke 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: free episodes that we feel like are almost like a 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: public service announcement. 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: For sure. 16 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: We just call them Bummer Episodes. 17 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 2: You need to hear, right, I think that's a great title. 18 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: Let's do that. We have enough for sure. 19 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this would definitely be one of them, 20 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: because we're talking about postpartum depression and sort of the 21 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: general bucket of post and even pre natal and during 22 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: natal troubles that women go through because there are, you know, 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: several subcategories that they kind of place under postpartum depression. 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: But it is a real serious thing that affects you know, 25 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: I saw ten to fifteen percent. I think Dave helped 26 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: us with this, and he said one in eight, which 27 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: is about twelve percent of women experience this. And it's 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: one of those things that is not talked about enough 29 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: to where it seems like the numbers could be higher 30 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: because people are still ashamed to admit this kind of 31 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: thing happens. 32 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a definite stigma on this, to varying 33 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 2: degrees depending on your culture, ethnic group. Yeah, but basically 34 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: across the board, you're going to find a stigma against 35 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: a new mother who can't get it together for her baby. 36 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: That's kind of like what people sometimes look at it as. 37 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: And if you were basically being looked at like that 38 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: and you're already down on yourself because you're not performing 39 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 2: perfectly to your own standards or whatever that heaped on 40 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: top of it, you're probably not gonna be like everybody, 41 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: I need help. You're gonna just kind of dig in 42 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: and just keep trying to go. And that is the 43 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: exact opposite of what you're supposed to do with any 44 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: of what are called maternal mental health issues. There's a 45 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 2: whole umbrella term. It's not just postpartum depression or perinatal depression. 46 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 2: There's a bunch of other ones we'll talk about a 47 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 2: little bit too, but all of them add up to 48 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: you got to ask for help. You also have to 49 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: be on the lookout for needing to offer help to 50 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 2: the new mother too, if you're the father or a 51 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: family member or a friend or something. 52 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a brutal situation where I mean, giving birth 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: is a you know, it can be a very wonderful, 54 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: joyous thing, but no matter how you slice it, it's 55 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: it's a very big sort of and traumatic doesn't always 56 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: necessarily I think mean something awful, but just such a 57 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: big life event that then you're then expected like and 58 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: now it's supposed to be the best thing ever, and 59 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna be the happiest you've ever been immediately despite 60 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: these huge hormonal swings, right, and you're gonna be a 61 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: perfect mom. You're gonna be such a great mom. You're 62 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: gonna be a perfect mom. It's just it's just so 63 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: much pressure, and so yeah, this is a bit of 64 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: a PSA for sure. 65 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: For sure. And hit you hit something on the nose, 66 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: the being perfect immediately. I mean, being perfect is too 67 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: high an expectation anyway. Nobody's perfect. But the idea that 68 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: you're just supposed to immediately click with your kid and 69 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: just now you're a perfect mom or a great mom 70 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: like that is not how it plays out very often, 71 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: I would guess most of the time. It day. 72 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: It's a process exactly. 73 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: So, like I said, postpartum depression or perry natal I'm 74 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: just gonna call it postpartum I basically don't know anybody 75 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: who's ever called it pery natal depression. Yeah, so we're 76 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 2: just gonna call it postpartum depression, with the caveat that 77 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: it doesn't just happen after birth. It can happen while 78 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: during the pregnancy as well. 79 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, and up to a year following birth as well. 80 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: For sure. So again this falls under the umbrella term 81 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: of maternal mental health. There's also some others postpartum anxiety, 82 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,559 Speaker 2: postpartum obsessive compulsive disorder. We'll talk about those a little 83 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 2: bit later. But when you put all of these things together, 84 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: you get a really bleak picture of mothers in the 85 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 2: United States, whereas the rest of the world is doing 86 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: better and better with maternal mental health. The US keeps 87 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: getting worse and worse, and I mean like a lot worse. 88 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. There was a CDC study that found that rates 89 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: of postpartum depression were seven times higher in twenty fifteen 90 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: than they were in two thousand and between twenty sixteen 91 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: and twenty twenty three, new moms reported nearly sixty five 92 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: percent increase of fair to poor mental health. It is, 93 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: oh man, it is the leading cause of death among 94 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: new mothers now in the United States, with suicide and 95 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: drug overdose accounting for twenty two percent of all postpartum 96 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: maternal deaths in the United States. So crazy, you know, 97 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: maternal death rates. You usually look at it as like, 98 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, something tragic happened in the birth, like physically 99 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: or biologically. And in the United States, the leading cause 100 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: of death is suicide and drug overdoses. 101 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and this is the highest in the 102 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: developed world by far, and that increases the highest in 103 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 2: the developed world, right, So it's it's a crisis in 104 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: the United States. It's a crisis worldwide, but in the 105 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: United States it's like a five alarm fire apparently. Yeah, 106 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 2: I'd be really interested to know what the problem is, 107 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: what's behind those figures are underneath those figures same. You 108 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: think it's a the the the United States transition toward 109 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 2: the becoming the society from a Handmaid's tale. 110 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm hansome to do with it. 111 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 2: So one of the other things about the postpartum depression 112 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: too that's really problematic is and you kind of touched 113 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 2: on this early on. I think something like half of 114 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 2: cases just go undiagnosed, in part because even doctors sometimes 115 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: are like, you'll be fine, just get over, just get 116 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: back in there, you know, give it the old college 117 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 2: try and families too, And I think that that self 118 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 2: inflicted stigma too that new mothers have. 119 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know it's it's one of the reasons 120 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: is because and you know, they have screw tools. Now, 121 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: there's one called the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale to determine 122 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: like when that line has crossed because the the baby 123 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: blues or the postpartum blues or something that happens a lot, 124 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: like maybe even most pregnancies, you end up for you know, 125 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: up to like a week or two having these hormonal 126 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: swings where there's like overlapsing symptoms with what ends up 127 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: being PPD. So that's why a lot of reason it 128 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: becomes undiagnosed is because people think like, well, this is 129 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: just the baby blues. I'm surfering from some sadness and 130 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: crying and because and feeling overwhelmed, certainly because this is 131 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: maybe my first time. Although I should point out that 132 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: postpartum is not limited to first birth at all, right, 133 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: it can happen with any like their third birth, the 134 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: third kid, fourth kid, whatever. But the overlap is so 135 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: great that a lot of times I think people are like, well, 136 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: it'll pass, it'll pass, it's just the baby blues. But 137 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: if it goes on for more than a week or two, 138 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: you're probably in PP territory. 139 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not that the postpartum depression is a like 140 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: a different thing than the baby blues. It's the severity 141 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: of the symptoms, the same symptoms and the duration of 142 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: those same symptoms that really differentiate it and make it 143 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: something that like you need help for, Like you need 144 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: to get professional help. It's not just going to go 145 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 2: away on its own, or if it does, it's going 146 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: to you're going to grind through years of it locally 147 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: unnecessarily because we didn't say this yet. It's very highly treatable. 148 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, that's the good news, and we'll get 149 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: to that. But you know, some of those symptoms we 150 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: should list are loss of appetite, difficulty sleeping, feeling worthlessness 151 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: or maybe even guilt or shame, anxiety, panic, irritability, anger, 152 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: big time mood swings, difficulty with bonding with your baby, 153 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: and again are these can be the baby blues or 154 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: if they're super severe and go on long enough, like 155 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: you said, it develops into PPD. And it's the kind 156 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: of thing that can also start several weeks two a 157 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: month later, So you got to keep an eye out, 158 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: like if those first couple of weeks or like you're like, 159 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: oh man, I managed to dodge this, it also might 160 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: start later and that's okay. You just need to be aware, right. 161 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 2: I said that there's other disorders under the umbrella of 162 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: maternal mental health issues, and another one is postpartum psychosis, 163 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: and it's essentially what it sounds like. The mental health 164 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 2: disorder can become so pronounced after birth that you may 165 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: suffer from delusions, You may become paranoid, you may be disoriented, 166 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: you may feel disassociated from the people around you or 167 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 2: the world itself or reality. And that is considered so 168 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: postpartum depression is something you need to seek help for. 169 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: Postpartum psychosis is considered a you immediately take a trip 170 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 2: to the er when you or the people around you 171 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: figure out that you are suffering from postpartum psychoasis. It's like, 172 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: get in the car, maybe you can throw on a 173 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 2: robe and just go to the er. 174 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's very rare. We should say it's one 175 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: out of every one thousand berths. But they say that 176 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: because very sadly, about four point five percent of the 177 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: cases of that psychosis result in harm to the baby 178 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: and five percent result in suicide. And you know, if 179 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: you've ever seen some terrible news report about like a 180 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: mom that said, you know, God told me to drown 181 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: my baby, that's what we're talking about here. Because delusions 182 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: of grandeur, a lot of times religious in nature, obsessive 183 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: thoughts about harming you or harming your baby, extreme paranoia 184 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: like that kind of thing. That's that's what falls under 185 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: the postpartum psychosis spanner. 186 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, And from researching postpartum psychosis, they found that there 187 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: are some additional risk factors. Seems like the number one 188 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 2: risk factor for developing it is if you have a history, 189 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: whether personal or familial, of bipolar disorder, and that if 190 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 2: you start having sleep loss that triggers abouts of mania, 191 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: that is a really big red flag that you are 192 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 2: at a great risk of going on to develop postpartum psychosis. 193 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: Meaning so sleep loss which you already are getting from 194 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 2: just having a new baby, but if that triggers mania, 195 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: that's a big red flag and that's probably what kicks 196 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: the whole thing off, is that loss of sleep. It's 197 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: like crazy important and it's nuts that evolution didn't take 198 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 2: that into account, like, oh, yeah, we need to make 199 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: sure everybody sleeps after this, stays awake for the next 200 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 2: two years because it'll drive people crazy, like that can 201 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: trigger that all of these maternal mental health issues. 202 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that can be rough on a family. 203 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: We got very very lucky with Ruby and that she 204 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: was a pretty good sleeper from early on, but I've 205 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: heard some nightmare stories and it's really tough. Sleep is 206 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: so so important. I think another thing we didn't point 207 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: out was for the postpartum psychosis, it's almost always a 208 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,599 Speaker 1: first time pregnancy too, which is differentiates it from postpartum 209 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: general postpartum depression. But you know, some similar risk factors 210 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: for regular PPD. If you have a history of depression 211 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: or anxiety, you're more likely. If you had a childhood 212 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: trauma that you experienced, if you underwent infertility treatment, you 213 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: may be more likely to if it's an unplanned pregnancy, 214 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: or if you're a low income mother, especially if you're 215 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: like literally living in poverty, they experience PPD at twice 216 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: the rate of higher income moms. And there are also 217 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: a couple of biological factors if you suffer from anemia 218 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: or hypothyroidism, and then it can be genetic. I think 219 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 1: depending on what study you've seen, us seen anywhere from 220 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: fourteen to thirty percent have like potentially a genetic factor, 221 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: like inheritable. 222 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: Oh really, I hadn't seen that at all. Let's talk 223 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 2: about postpartum er perinatal OCD and perinatal mood and anxiety 224 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 2: disorder real quick too. Okay, yeah, so POCD. This is 225 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 2: this to me sounds like the hardest to deal with, 226 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: because I think you're probably the least likely to step 227 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 2: forward and say I need some help. Everybody. But it's 228 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: obsessive compulsive disorder that develops way more quickly than typical 229 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: obsessive compulsive disorder, usually very shortly after birth or after 230 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 2: the baby's born, and it's you know, like ritual behaviors 231 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: like checking on the baby incessantly, worrying that the baby's 232 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: going to get contaminated with germs, and lots of intrusive 233 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: thoughts that can be super disturbing. 234 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's a natural 235 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: tendency if you've, especially for a first time parent, to 236 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: have this new, seemingly very fragile, tender thing that you're 237 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: in charge of keeping alive. It's a pretty natural instinct, 238 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: I think to maybe think like, they're so small and 239 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: so fragile. So my dumb advice just as a parent, 240 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: is like they're they're more robust than you think, and 241 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: they're made to survive, and they're made to live generally speaking, 242 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: so you have that on your side. But I can 243 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: see how it's pretty easy for maybe someone to go 244 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: down this road of worrying about germs or checking on 245 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: the baby every like ten minutes in the middle of 246 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: the night, and to become sort of obsessive this. The 247 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: POCD can cross the line into some even unwanted sexual obsessions, 248 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: like mother apparently can have sexualized images flashing through their 249 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: mind while they're changing a diaper, which is just sort 250 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: of creates a cycle of you thinking like, what's wrong 251 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: with me? What's going on? I'm having this weird thing 252 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: flash through my head? Right, And in reality, that's all 253 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: it is, is just like asleep, or your hormones or 254 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: something just really unusual that flashed through your head. And 255 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: as an intrusive thought, it does not mean that that's 256 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: who you are or what or you're leading to some 257 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: awful outcome. 258 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 2: Right, And I think that's kind of worth saying again, Chuck, 259 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: because this is the kind of thing that you would 260 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: not who you're going to tell that to? Oh, and 261 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 2: having sexualized thoughts about our baby? Yeah, right, you're not 262 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: going to tell that to anybody. It's going to be 263 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 2: so tough to admit that. So you have to know 264 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: that it's not you. It is your hormones, it is 265 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: not you. You do you have not suddenly developed a 266 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 2: sexual attraction to infants or children, like, it's not you. 267 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: So if you're having thoughts like this, you're not alone. 268 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: It's actually more common than you would think, And like, 269 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: you can get treatment for this, and you should get 270 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: treatment for it, because you're probably really being hard on 271 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: yourself right now. 272 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, and if you give into that thought, 273 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: then that's when you're maybe avoiding bathing your baby or 274 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: avoiding caring and holding for your baby. So it's a 275 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: tough thing to come forward and talk to people. So 276 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: that's why it's really great to have a great support 277 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: system of other moms, friends and families to people to 278 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: lean on, because I guarantee you, if you say the 279 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: weirdest thought you've had out loud in a group of 280 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: moms that will be a couple of them, then they 281 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: are like, I had the same thoughts, It's okay. 282 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, hopefully you have a group like that 283 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 2: or confined one, you know. 284 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 285 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: Then there's some postnatal mood and anxiety disorder, which essentially 286 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 2: is a really terrible positive feedback loop to where you 287 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: feel like you're not bonding with your baby well enough 288 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: or fast enough, and so you start to become anxious, 289 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 2: which the baby picks up on, and the baby becomes 290 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: distressed or less likely to connect with you or pay 291 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 2: attention to you, which makes it harder for you to 292 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 2: read the baby, which makes it less likely for you 293 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 2: to bond in any kind of quick fashion and it 294 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: just keeps going in this cycle. 295 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And you know what, I want to 296 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: recommend a podcast because if you maybe you are a 297 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: little more isolated and you don't feel like you have 298 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: this or or if you just don't have this sort 299 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: of support system around you. Our old buddy Jesse Thorn, 300 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: who runs the Maximum Fund Network and co hosts with 301 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: Judge John Hodgman with our pal his wonderful wife, Teresa Is. 302 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: She's just the best. And I don't think they do 303 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: it anymore, but Teresa and biz Ellis had a show 304 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: called One Bad Mother. Oh yeah, I remember that for 305 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: a long time and I'm pretty sure they still but 306 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: they did it for many, many years, and One Bad 307 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: Mother was just a great outlet and support system for 308 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: just this kind of stuff. For you know, the message 309 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: was always like you're doing just fine, You're doing okay. 310 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: You think you're the worst, and you're really the best, 311 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: And like, you know, if you're having a hard time 312 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: and you're you feel like you're alone in this, like 313 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: turn on that podcast, like do something like that to 314 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: know that you're not alone out there. 315 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: Right and pour yourself a mega pine of wine and 316 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 2: treat yourself to the Bad Mom's Trilogy in one sitting. 317 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 2: That's right, So you want to take a break, Yeah. 318 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: Let's take a break and we'll get into some statistics 319 00:18:40,560 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: about other communities and how they deal with this. All right, everyone, 320 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: we're back. We promise talk about statistics, and in this case, 321 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: there are some pretty stark racial disparities when it comes 322 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: to PPD as far as the incidents of occurrence and 323 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: very sadly treatment. Up to forty percent of black and 324 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: Latina moms suffer from PPD, which is about twice the 325 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: rate of non Hispanic white moms, and single black mothers 326 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: are six times more likely than the general population to 327 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: experience it, really sadly. Latino women and Black women are 328 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 1: fifty seven percent and forty one percent, respectively, less likely 329 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: to start treatment for PPD than white women. 330 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 2: Right, And there's a lot of reasons for why they're 331 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 2: less likely to start treatment. In part there's a stigma, 332 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 2: just like with any culture. I think in Latino culture 333 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 2: that stigma can be even stronger than white or Black culture. 334 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 2: But for say black women in particular, it can often 335 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 2: go undiagnosed because it doesn't present as the classic symptoms 336 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 2: that the embra scale is designed to detect rather than 337 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 2: depressive symptoms. Black mom might have irritability, self criticism, deep fatigue, insomnia. 338 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 2: These are not all necessarily shared by all new mothers, 339 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: and so it just the doctor just might miss it. 340 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: They might be like, hey, you're just agro stop being 341 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 2: I grow. 342 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: Right, you know, yeah, I think they came up with 343 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: a different a different scale just for black mothers, right. 344 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, the Jackson Hogue Phillips Contextualized Stress Measure, which next 345 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 2: time you have a party, give that out as a 346 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: party favor for guests. 347 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But that's great that they were like, hey, 348 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: we have a we have a hole in our treatment 349 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: plan here as far as you've been diagnosing this in 350 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: black woms. Right, so they came up with their own scale, 351 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: which is awesome. Basically everybody, The American College of Obstetricians 352 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: and Gynecologists, the AMA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, everyone 353 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: says recommends that everybody should be screened for prenatal or sorry, 354 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: perinatal depression, But very sadly, less than twenty percent of 355 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: all women are screened for these mental health disorders, and 356 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: those numbers are a lot lower for women of color. 357 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 2: Right, So those are reasons why they might not actually 358 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 2: go seek out treatment for PPD. There's also reasons why 359 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 2: they're more likely to suffer from PPD in the first place, 360 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 2: and those seem to center on social determinants of health. 361 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is like. 362 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: Your environment, your income level, the amount of free time 363 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 2: you might even have to go see the doctor. All 364 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 2: of these things tend to be less than what a 365 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 2: white mother would experience, and all of them help increase 366 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 2: the likelihood of experiencing postpartum depression. 367 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. 368 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 2: So regardless Chuck, of whatever your ethnic or racial group, 369 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 2: there are essentially the same causes I mean, PPD, even 370 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 2: though it might manifest itself differently. Even though access to 371 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 2: help for PPD is different, those are all human made obstacles. Yeah, 372 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 2: the biological basis for it is the same in every case. 373 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 2: And essentially it's a combination of hormones and the stark, 374 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 2: raving horror that is becoming a new pit. 375 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. Like we were saying, you're thrown into 376 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: this brand new thing where your first charge is like, 377 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: all right, keep this baby alive. 378 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 2: Oh I cannot imagine. 379 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: I mean I remember, and this is like I imagine 380 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: it's the same with adoption as with it just you know, 381 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: regular birth, but you know, all of and someone just 382 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 1: hands you a baby and the nurses see the look 383 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: on your face, and hopefully the nurses are all as 384 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 1: great as ours were, as they're just like, you're doing fine. 385 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: They told us. What I said was like, hey, these 386 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: babies are meant to stay alive. You're gonna be just fine. 387 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: Just feed them this way, and you're on the right 388 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: track by just getting food into their body. And so, 389 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: you know, like I said, you know, evolution has happened 390 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: in such a way where they want these babies to live. 391 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: So you've already got a bit of a head start, 392 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 1: but being bombarded by hormones and a change in hormones 393 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: is definitely something that's hard to deal with because your 394 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: body's bombarded with hormones because you're pregnant to help you, 395 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, to help you be successfully pregnant and to 396 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 1: stay pregnant. And then immediately after, within like seventy two hours, 397 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: most of these hormones go back to their previous state, 398 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: and that's just a big break to throw on. 399 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty mean of evolution really to just be like, 400 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: here's all the stuff that you need to have a baby. 401 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 2: Now you don't have a baby anymore. Who cares about 402 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: you and your baby? Like, thanks for the ride, lady. 403 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: Right. They could have been like, well, let's just tap 404 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: these down, like very slowly of the course of six months. 405 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, what the hey, you know, I know I'm a 406 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 2: childless man, sis even, and I am offended by that. 407 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 2: I'm mad at natural selection for that. It's just totally unfair. 408 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: It's it's just unfair. 409 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: Well, what are some of these hormones. Let's talk about them. 410 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: Well, you got good old progesterone. Everybody knows that one. 411 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 2: That one won the Super Bowl last year. 412 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: That's right. 413 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 2: It helps you create your placenta that the baby's going 414 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 2: to I guess attached to I remember if I remember 415 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 2: my health classer math grade correctly. 416 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: Okay. 417 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 2: It also stimulates blood vessel growth, which helps get nutrients 418 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 2: and oxygen to the womb. Progesterone, it's like any hormone. 419 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: It's actually quite clever. We have a finite number of hormones, 420 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 2: not that many, actually, I'm not sure how many. But 421 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 2: they do so many different things, and they do so 422 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 2: many different things in combinations. It's just elegant and beautiful 423 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 2: the human body can be, except when the hormone levels 424 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 2: drop too quickly. 425 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. There's also, of course estrogen that's going 426 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: to help the uters grow, contribute to fetal development. As 427 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: far as organs and things go, it's going to stimulate 428 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: that milk duct development. Relaxing is another one that's the 429 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: most chill of all. That's going to inhibit uterine contractions 430 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: until you need them to avoid premature birth. And then 431 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: it's going to do double duty and relax and soft 432 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: within the pelvic joints when you're preparing for birth. And 433 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: then finally we have oxytocin. They really shoot through the 434 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: roof at the beginning of labor to stimulate uterine contractions. Yeah. 435 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: And then again, like we said, within about seventy two 436 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: hours of birth, at least, estrogen and progesterone that had 437 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: increased tenfold just goes back to normal. Yeah, And these 438 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: huge hormonal swings are just tough to deal with. You know, 439 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: it's tough to know which way is up. 440 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 2: Okay, that's just the hormonal the biological aspect of it. 441 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 2: There's also the environmental aspect of it. The nurture version 442 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 2: that was nature. This is the nurture part, and having 443 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: a new baby comes along with all of a sudden 444 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 2: you have to stay at home with your new baby 445 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 2: and can't do anything. You aren't sleeping. I think that 446 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 2: that is like kind of overlooked by people who've never 447 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 2: had kids or underestimated. I think maybe who haven't had 448 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 2: kids that don't sleep very well. And then you also 449 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 2: have to nurse. You have been physically gone through the ringer, 450 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: taken through the ringer. Like, there's all sorts of different 451 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 2: things that come that are specific exclusively to just having 452 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: had a baby that combined with the hormones, they just 453 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 2: come together and at the very least give almost all 454 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: new mothers the baby blues, and then some moms postpartum depression, 455 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 2: postpartum mood and anxiety disorder, postpartum psychosis, postpartum MOSTCD. 456 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, as far as the sleep thing goes, 457 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: even if you have like a great sleeper like we did, 458 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: you're still going to have disrupted sleep for a while 459 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: because you have to get up and feed that baby 460 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, and some people have 461 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: a really hard time going back to bed. So this 462 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: is when partners need to really really, really, really really 463 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: step up if you have a partner when you're having 464 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: a baby. Imagine, I can't imagine how tough this is 465 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: on your own, but yeah, step up, take feet in 466 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: the middle of the night feedings. Let that mom get 467 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: as much sleep as possible. And then they also say 468 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: sleep when the baby sleep. So embrace those naps all 469 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: day long. If like, your baby has a great nap 470 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: in the afternoon, so should you. 471 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 2: Right, don't like your mother in law, Well, if she's 472 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: willing to come over and watch the baby overnight, fake it. 473 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh man, And we had a lot of help, 474 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: so like, because you know, my mom and Emily's mom, 475 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: we're both living here at the time, and so I 476 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: just really feel for people that don't have that kind 477 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: of help and feel like they're trapped at home. So 478 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: my other advice as a systad is to get out 479 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: in the world. You might think that your baby is 480 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: just a walking sickness bomb waiting to happen if they 481 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: go and breathe the world's air. Ye, but there's nothing 482 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: better than you can do for yourself and any baby 483 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: than to get out in the world as much as possible, 484 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: as soon as possible. Yeah, they'll be just fine. 485 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 2: Great advice, Chuck, you are just rolling with it today. 486 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: Well, I hope i've learned something. 487 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: I think you've learned a lot. Yeah, so, yes, you 488 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 2: have your hormone levels plummeting. That seems like a pretty 489 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: good answer to where postpartum depression comes from, right, Yeah, 490 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 2: But it turns out that they've zoomed in, they've gotten 491 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 2: even more granular. If you're like a C suite type 492 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 2: and have figured out that there's this one hormone in 493 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: particular that really seems to be largely responsible. It's not 494 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 2: the only one responsible for it, but it's a pretty 495 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 2: It got caught red handed with like a bag with 496 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: the dollar sign on it, wearing a black mask, kind 497 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: of skulking away. 498 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: That's right, So what is it, Chuck? It is alo pregnanolone. 499 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: It's funny. Dave wrote this and he was like, good 500 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: luck pronouncing that, And Dave, Buddy, that one's pretty easy 501 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: compared to a lot of the stuff that we. 502 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 2: See, for sure. 503 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: But that is deletrious. That's a steroid naturally produced in 504 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: the brain, and it plays a couple of key roles 505 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: during pregnancy, and that it inhibits the release of b oxytocin, 506 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: which we already talked about to avoid premature labor, which 507 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: you don't want. It also protects the developing fetal brain 508 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: from all those stress hormones that mom has. 509 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 2: Right, Okay, so this is pretty great stuff. Unfortunately, just 510 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 2: like all the other hormones, it says, so long I've 511 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: done my thing, like within you know, a couple of 512 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: days of having given birth. So all of a sudden, 513 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 2: not only is this a hormonal change, this natural antidepressant 514 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: has suddenly just vanished on you. And this can really 515 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: seem to trigger postpyerum depression in a lot of women. 516 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. So it's going to lower their anxiety 517 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: for a while while they're pregnant and boost a mother's mood, 518 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: and then after that baby is born when it crashes out, 519 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: it's probably feels akin to like going off in SSRI 520 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: or something. 521 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 2: But quickly, Like I mean, whenever you go off of 522 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 2: medication like that, you're supposed to step it down, slowly, 523 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 2: keeper it off. This is like again nature just being 524 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 2: a total be ripping that stuff away from you, and 525 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you're just you just going cold 526 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 2: turkey off of this antidepress that you got used to 527 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 2: over nine months. Yeah, for sure, So, Chuck, one thing 528 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 2: that we've really been focusing on is the mom, and 529 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 2: the mom definitely suffers from post to part and depression, 530 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 2: but so can the baby as well. 531 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Pregnant women with PPD are far more 532 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: likely to deliver a pre term baby or a baby 533 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: with low birth weight. So there can be a literal 534 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: like a physical outcome of postpartum depression for the baby. 535 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: And we talked earlier about black and Latino women experiencing 536 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: PPD at higher rates, so that also is going to 537 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: correlate over to birth outcomes because Black women are fifty 538 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: percent more likely to give pre term, to give birth 539 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: preterm than white women, and more than twice as likely 540 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: to have a baby with a low birth weight. 541 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: Right, This of course makes it even more pressure laden 542 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: for you to get it right right, so that also 543 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 2: can affect your ability to bond with your baby. And again, 544 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 2: as we saw with postpartum mood and anxiety disorder, that 545 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,719 Speaker 2: can create a feedback cycle where you get more and 546 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: more anxious about it, more and more depressed about it, 547 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: and that that affects your bonding even further, which you 548 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 2: get more and more depressed and anxious about and that 549 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 2: affects your baby as well. 550 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Should we take a break. 551 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is one other thing I think before we 552 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 2: break to point out, and that is that if you 553 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 2: have postpartum depression, it doesn't mean that you don't want 554 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 2: to bond with your baby, like you are incapable of 555 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 2: bonding with your baby in the healthiest possible way. It's 556 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: not you, it's your biology and your environment. 557 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. I thought you were about to say it's not you, 558 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: it's them. It's the baby. 559 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 2: It's the baby's fault. 560 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just not that into you. All right. I'm 561 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: glad we could make a sort of a light joko 562 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: hooe that came across that way. And we will be 563 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: back right after this with treatment options because there's great 564 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: news on the horizon. 565 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 2: Okay, Chuck, So you said there's great news on the horizon, 566 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 2: and we're about to lay it on them all the 567 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: moms who are bawling and yelling and doing all the 568 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 2: things while they're listening to this episode. Treatment is quite viable. 569 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: That's right. Standard treatment is what you might think. It's therapy. 570 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: Perhaps antidepressant medication, certainly CBT cognitive behavioral therapy we've talked 571 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: about a lot. Yeah, that has been proven to be 572 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: pretty effective for PPD and postpartum anxiety and everything. Yeah, 573 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: and everything in general. But in the case of CBT, 574 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: you know, you're identifying these triggers that seem very automatic, 575 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: these thought patterns that you think you can't help, and 576 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, coach you through that and how to develop 577 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: a healthier way of responding to those things when they 578 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: do happen. 579 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 2: Right, God bless doctor Aaron T. Beck, the creator of CBT. 580 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, there's also medication. 581 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 2: We talked about alopregnanolone being discovered as like a main 582 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 2: culprit for postpartum depression. That led to some drugs being 583 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 2: expressly targeted to basically help that transition, so you don't 584 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 2: just go cold turkey, you kind of taper off of 585 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 2: that stuff. 586 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 587 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 2: And then there's also long been SSRIs prescribed like a 588 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 2: standard antidepressant, and that of course gives mom's pause, like 589 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 2: any kind of medication can give a lot of mom's 590 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 2: pause because they're like, I'm nursing, so what's that going 591 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 2: to do to the baby? 592 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, they've studied this. The current sort of 593 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: wisdom on this is that they have been detected in 594 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: very very low levels, sometimes even undetectable levels, in breast milk. 595 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: There are rare reports of adverse effects on infants or 596 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 1: in infants, so that's where the science currently stands. 597 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 2: Yes, I also saw that peroxetine and sertraline which is 598 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 2: seroxat and zoloft okay. They seem to be the preferred 599 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 2: antidepressants for nursing mothers because they have shorter half life 600 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 2: than other SSRIs and the pass to breast milk and 601 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 2: smaller amounts than other Ssriyes, So if SSRIs in general 602 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 2: are okay, these two are super okay according to the 603 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,959 Speaker 2: medical establishment, not me because I'm not a doctor. 604 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: That's right. And by the way, we did I think 605 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: two pretty good episodes on breastfeeding back in the day. 606 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:57,240 Speaker 1: That was a two parter, right. 607 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 2: We did one on bottle feeding and one on breastfeeding. 608 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, so feeding your baby, and you know, I 609 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: recommend you you do those and we got you know, 610 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: it's always when it's two dudes podcasting about this stuff 611 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: about lady stuff, we were always a little nervous and 612 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: we always get really good feedback. From women that say, like, 613 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: you guys did a really good job, and it's good 614 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: that you guys are out there, sort of not feeling 615 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: like it has to come from a woman's perspective. So 616 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: I hope we're doing this all justice, you know. 617 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: God, I hope so too. 618 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: I think you're doing fine. 619 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 2: I think you're doing great. 620 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: But I'm just another CIS dude. 621 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 2: So if you want to target alo pregnant alone, there's 622 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 2: a drug called bre san alone yeah. 623 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 624 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 2: There's another one called Zura no loan yeah, and those 625 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 2: are the generic terms for them. The problem is, as 626 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 2: it stands right now, if you're paying out of pocket 627 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 2: with zero insurance, you're gonna pay thirty four grand for 628 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,879 Speaker 2: one in the United States. I'm sure it's like ten 629 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 2: bucks in Canada, yeah, or fifteen grand for the other. 630 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: Shame shame, shame. 631 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully if you have even passingly decent insurance in 632 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 2: the United States, like, you're not going to pay anything 633 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 2: even remotely like that. But yes, I think you should 634 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 2: say it again, chuck. 635 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, still, even if enturance is covering it, shame, shame, shame, shame, 636 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: capital sham. 637 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 2: E Good for you, buddy, And now here's an ad 638 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 2: for saran alone. 639 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: Oh man, you're managing to squeeze in some jokes. I 640 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: like that. 641 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:36,919 Speaker 2: I like you. 642 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: So can men get postpartum depression? The answer is yes, 643 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: that can happen. Apparently, between eight and ten percent of 644 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 1: new dads suffer from some kind of anxiety or depression 645 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: after the birth of a job, and it also may 646 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: be connected to hormones in some cases. It's usually later 647 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 1: than women might experience it, between three and six months later, 648 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: maybe up to a year later, but a lot of 649 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: the same you know issues, sleep issues, loss of appetite, 650 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 1: feeling overwhelmed, tired, sad, anxious, and also the same people 651 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: at risk if you're a younger dad, if you have 652 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: a history of depression, if you are struggling financially, or 653 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: if you're just having trouble in your marriage or relationship. 654 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: You know, you don't have to be married to have 655 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: a baby. We all know that, all right, All of 656 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 1: those same kind of risk factors. 657 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:33,240 Speaker 2: Right, And there's also additional risk factors that dads customarily 658 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 2: have that new mom's necess don't necessarily and that's a 659 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 2: sense that's like the new mom is expected to be 660 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 2: a great mom and raise a great healthy well adjusted 661 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 2: baby right out of the box. The dad is expected 662 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 2: to really step it up and provide for his new family, 663 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 2: and that can often mean like, well, you're stuck here 664 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 2: in this job and you're now beholden to this employer 665 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 2: and like you may this that might not be the 666 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 2: great greatest feeling in the world for you right then, 667 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 2: And at the very least, it's additional pressure. So that 668 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 2: can also kick off postpartum depression in dad's which was 669 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 2: I think best expressed in the whamsong Everything she wants. 670 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: That's right, and I hope this is clear. But to 671 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: be clear, we're not obviously talking about the old days 672 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: where like the man's got the job and the woman 673 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: doesn't work and isn't expected to. But you know, in 674 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: two income families, a lot of times when a mom 675 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: has a baby, they at the very least hopefully have 676 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 1: a great maternity leave kind of situation. If not, sometimes 677 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: they have to leave like whatever job and just not 678 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: get paid for a while. So there may be more 679 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: pressure on the second income earner to you know, kind 680 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 1: of make up for that loss or at least keep 681 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: the ship afloat till mom can get back to work. 682 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of the I guess quirks of the 683 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 2: United States economy. I guess is that especially if you 684 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 2: if you have a two income house and there there 685 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,919 Speaker 2: is not great maternal leave or paternal leave, both parents 686 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 2: have to go to work very soon after the birth, 687 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 2: they will have to put their kid in childcare. The 688 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 2: United States, unlike some other countries, does not have free childcare. 689 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 2: It is a paid problem, private business industry. And some 690 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 2: couples figure out that the cost of daycare is more 691 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 2: than say the mom or the dad would actually bring home, 692 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 2: and so in that sense it makes sense to just 693 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,760 Speaker 2: for the mom or the dad to stay home whoever 694 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 2: has the lower income that daycare would exceed. That's nuts 695 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 2: that that happens to anybody, and it happens to a 696 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 2: decent amount, at least anecdotally. 697 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, day care is really really expensive, and 698 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: it's a it's a real shame because that can that 699 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 1: helps the family, that helps for outcomes for the in 700 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: their development. So my recommendation is to use your voice 701 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: at the voting booth and if there are candidates in 702 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: your local city or state or nationwide that believe in 703 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: the idea of free childcare, then speak with your vote. 704 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:18,839 Speaker 1: That's all I'm going to say on that. 705 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 2: Okay, one other thing too, Chuck. It's not just environment. 706 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,799 Speaker 2: Just like with postpartum depression in women, postpartum depression in 707 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 2: men also seems to have to do with hormones, because 708 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 2: men's hormones are the balance of hormones change during pregnancy 709 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 2: as well, which is pretty neat. 710 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, your testosterone is going to probably drop 711 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: during the pregnancy and continues to get lower after the 712 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 1: birth happens. And people think, you know, researchers think that 713 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: that's basically to keep tooktook at bay and to reduce 714 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: aggressive tendencies while you know, father infant bonding is happening, Like, 715 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: chill out, dad, you need to be gentler right now. 716 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 1: So we're gonna lower your. 717 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 2: Tea, right and also stick around and help raise the 718 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 2: kid rather than go look for your next conquest. 719 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I wonder if I should say this on 720 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: the air. 721 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 2: Well, we can edit it out. 722 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: All right, We'll see. One of the funny things that 723 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: Emily has done lately is you know, you know, all 724 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: the in a stupid man of sphere world, like you know, 725 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: low tea beta male. Soy, that's another one. Like you're soy, 726 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: like because you eat soy instead of meat like a 727 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: man does. She will anytime I'm like, I don't know, 728 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: just being wishy washy about something, or what if she 729 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: feels like she just wants to kind of pokepun at me, 730 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: she she'll call me like a beta cook or ask 731 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: me if I have low tea, or like hey, soy, 732 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: come over here and help me with this thing. Oh 733 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: my gosh, it's very I mean, it always just brings 734 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: the house down between the two of us because it's 735 00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,399 Speaker 1: just such a dumb thing. Anyway, I like that she's 736 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: taken something from the manisphere and kind of twisted it 737 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: to use it in our own marriage as a comedy. 738 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 2: I would love to be sitting on the couch someday 739 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 2: and heard do that to you, because yes, I would 740 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:09,400 Speaker 2: so funny. 741 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wait for Ruby to be like, what's a 742 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:11,919 Speaker 1: beta cup? 743 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 2: Right? Let's see? Oh yeah. Postpartum depression is also treatable 744 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 2: and dad, so if you think you have it, to 745 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 2: kelp because it's very treatable too. 746 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: That's right. 747 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:26,439 Speaker 2: Uh, you got anything else? 748 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:28,879 Speaker 1: I got nothing else? Man. I always feel like we're 749 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: on ice skates with these episodes. 750 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,320 Speaker 2: So I didn't feel like that about this one. 751 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,439 Speaker 1: I always get a little nervous in how I speak 752 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: about this stuff. So I hope you did Okay, you 753 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: did great? Man, you did great? 754 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 2: Well, then it sounds like we both did great. 755 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:42,719 Speaker 1: But I want moms to write in and say you 756 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: did great. I don't care what I think about you 757 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: and what you think about me anymore. We know we 758 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 1: love each other. 759 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 2: All right, fair enough? Okay, Yeah, if you're a new 760 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 2: mom or an old mom or even never had kids, 761 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,279 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. We would love to hear from you 762 00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 2: about this episode. 763 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and not just saying we're great, Like if we 764 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 1: fell short, let us know and we'll try and do 765 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: better and correct it. 766 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 2: Well. Put man, I'm glad you said that too, because yeah, 767 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 2: we sounded like a couple of I know, like please 768 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 2: make us feel better, right, a couple of cucks. 769 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:12,799 Speaker 1: Beta cucks. 770 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, since Chuck just laughed about beta cucks again, it's 771 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 2: so funny. That means it's time for listener mail. 772 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: Soy is the one that really gets me. 773 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,319 Speaker 2: Well, you know it's crazy as soy actually does raise 774 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 2: your estrogen levels and can give men many boobs. 775 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: Oh well, great, give it to me. I love it 776 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: all right. This is from Adam and Michigan. Hey, guys, 777 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: I'm a little more than disappointed that in the Three 778 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: Mile Island episode you fail to mention professional wrestler Adam Baum. 779 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: He was a popular wrestler in the nineteen eighties and 780 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,319 Speaker 1: the WWF. He was billed as being from three Mile 781 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:55,439 Speaker 1: Island and was in imposing six six two ninety well. 782 00:44:55,640 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: He had yellow con yellow contact lenses and a spinish 783 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,439 Speaker 1: move was called the Adam Smasher. This is so great. 784 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: He was a rather imposing figure with a very creepy 785 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: theme song, and he made quite an impact. His real 786 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: name is Brian Clark. He's still alive and looks almost 787 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: like he did in the nineteen eighties. Adam from Michigan. 788 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 2: Nice. I had never heard of him, so thank you 789 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 2: for letting us know. Adam. 790 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fun. 791 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 2: You hadn't heard of him? 792 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,879 Speaker 1: No, I mean I didn't keep up with wrestling much. 793 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 2: No, I didn't either, But it sounds like we were 794 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 2: missing out on a lot. 795 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: But you know, we're just soy love and Beta Cux. 796 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 1: So what do we know. 797 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,799 Speaker 2: If you want to be like Adam and let us know? Wait, 798 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 2: is this from Adam Bomb himself. 799 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:38,320 Speaker 1: No, this is a d A. 800 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,479 Speaker 2: M oh okay. Well, there was an Adam Bomb who 801 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 2: was a DJ at album maybe eight. For a while, 802 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,800 Speaker 2: he had like the Soul something show. 803 00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 1: Oh wow, I bet I listened to it. 804 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,720 Speaker 2: It was really good. Well, anyway, thanks a lot Adam 805 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 2: from Michigan for letting us know about Adam Bomb. We 806 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 2: love that And if you want to get in touch 807 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 2: with us like Adam did, you can send us an 808 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 2: email to send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio 809 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 2: dot com. 810 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 811 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 1: more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 812 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.