1 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's not too many 2 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: things in this world that I enjoy more than going fishing. 3 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: And one particular type of fish I like to seek 4 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: out in fresh water that is a catfish. I loved catfish. 5 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: And you know one of the hubs of catfishing in 6 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: America is actually Oklahoma. You get up there in that 7 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: red clay, these stained rivers, and they catch some of 8 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: the biggest cats around. When you go fishing, sometimes you 9 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: look into things that you didn't expect to hook into, 10 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: and sometimes you find things that will just absolutely chill 11 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: you to the core. Today we're gonna talk about four men. 12 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: We're all shot, dismembered, and their bodies were tossed into 13 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: the Grand Fork River and Mulke, Oklahoma. I'm Joseph Scott 14 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Bags. My dear friend Jackie 15 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: Howard is with me today. She's the executive producer of 16 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,639 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jack you like to fish? 17 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: Would it surprise you for me to say, yes, I do. 18 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: I like to fish too. And you know the thing 19 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: about Oklahoma is that all those shows that you see 20 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: on TV many times, some of these shows from back 21 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: just a few years ago. Have you seen these guys 22 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: that go into the river and they go to noodle, 23 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: get their arms into the water and they wiggle their 24 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: fingers around in some big old cat will bite their 25 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: hand and arm and they just pull it out. And 26 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: to me, it's terrifying because being from Louisiana, I know 27 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: what else is underneath there, and it's not alligators. I 28 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: don't have aligator's up in Oklahoma, and I don't think, 29 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: but they do have snapping turtles, and I'm terrified of them. 30 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: You know, they say a snapping turtle won't turn loose 31 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: if your finger until it thunders, So I'm terrified of 32 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 1: that good reason to be. I'm absolutely terrifying. But I 33 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: gotta tell you this case today on body bags is 34 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: absolutely horrific. I was amazed when this came up in 35 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: my news feed and I began to kind of dig 36 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: into it a little bit. This is another one of 37 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: those cases. And I guess all of our cases are 38 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: Joe that we just look at and it's so hard 39 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: to comprehend and understand. Four friends, actually two brothers and 40 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: two other friends. Billy Chastain, thirty years old, His brother 41 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: Mark Chestnain, thirty two years old, Mike Spike's thirty two 42 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: years old, and Alex Stevens twenty nine. They left Billy's 43 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: home on bicycle on the evening of Sunday, October nine. 44 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: Than they were reported missing soon thereafter they were not 45 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: seen again. That's a very odd way to go missing, 46 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: peddling off on a bicycle. And then their bodies were 47 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: recovered in a local river, and as you said, they 48 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: had been shot and dismembered. Mode of transportation off the bat, Joe, 49 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: how do you follow a bicycle? If you're trying to 50 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: track these Let's just say start there. You're trying to 51 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: track these guys, how do you track a bicycle? Look, 52 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: you know when I said that this this the case 53 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: kind of shocked me when it popped up on my 54 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: feet and I began to kind of dig into it 55 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: a little bit. One of the reasons is bicycles. I 56 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: don't know that I've ever encountered homicide like this singular, 57 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: much less a quadruple homicide. And that's what we're talking 58 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: about here. How do you track them? And one an 59 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: interesting piece to this as well, that the sheriff kind 60 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: of lets slip out up their news conference and this 61 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: is kind of wild too. They were actually pulling wagons 62 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: behind the bicycles and I'm thinking, why in the world 63 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: would you be doing this, And these these villas were 64 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: not out unlike an afternoon ride, you know, like you 65 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: see these guys wearing spandex and are riding them down 66 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: the road and they're going for time and distancing. No, no, 67 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: no, no no, that's that's not what this is. These guys 68 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: were using this as a mode of transportation to get 69 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: to a specific location, and the sheriff has implied at 70 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: least that their destination was to a location where they 71 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: could get involved in some missue, where they were going 72 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: to be involved in something that they shouldn't have been 73 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: involved in. And to this moment in time, as far 74 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: as this investigation is concerned, they still have yet to 75 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: recover these bicycles. And I think that's gonna be a 76 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: big piece of this because I have to imagine that 77 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: whoever wound up bringing about these individuals deaths and they're 78 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: subsequent dismemberment had something to do with those bikes. And 79 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 1: I think that as an investigator, if you can find 80 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: a location where they are deposited, it is going to 81 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 1: give you an idea as to who was involved and 82 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: at what point in time they were involved, because you 83 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: want to look for things like, you know, any kind 84 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: of damage to the bikes, like were they broadsided by car, 85 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: was any any of the frame tubular frame that they used, 86 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: was it bent in any way? I think that those 87 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: are going to be considerations as well. And when they 88 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: do finally get their hands on those bikes, trust me, 89 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: they're going to go over them from stem to stern 90 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: to try to find any any contrary sevinence. Right now, 91 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: I'm kind of interested in as far as damage goes, 92 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: I'm kind of interested in is there any transfer of 93 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: paint on them? Where they sideswiped by car, knocked off 94 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: the road? You get that paint transferred paint is specifically 95 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: and in a fible. In a forensic lab, you can 96 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: actually trace it back to the source from whom you know, 97 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: who manufactured the paints. It's actually a fascinating area of 98 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: forensics in the trace evidence vision of most crime labs. 99 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: And so they can do that, and it's it's going 100 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: to be interesting if they recover them. Can you trace 101 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: a bicycle tire as you would an automobile tire? Yeah, 102 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: I mean they they have look, I mean they are 103 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: specific to specific types of rims and more broadly to 104 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: specific types of bicycles. And you know the types of 105 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: tires that our own bikes are particular to a particular framework. 106 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: If you're you know, mountain biking, or if it's a 107 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: touring bicycle, or you know, you have you seen these 108 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: bikes that people ride at the at the beach that 109 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: have these gigantic tires on the cruisers. Yeah, yeah, cruisers, 110 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: And they're very distinctive. When tires come on a vehicle 111 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: and you go to a play that might sell a bicycle, 112 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: or you go to a police that sells a car, 113 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: the tires at that if it's a brand new car, 114 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: the tires that that individual vehicle come with are referred 115 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: to as OE, which means original equipment. And the OE, 116 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: the original equipment, is specific to a particular type of manufacturer. 117 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: And when you have crime labs, they have reference material there. 118 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: It's one of the most fascinating. People have no idea 119 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: how much reference material crime labs have. And just this 120 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: is really kind of going far afield, but I'll give 121 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: you an idea. Places like the FBI Crime Lab, they 122 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: actually have millions of buttons. Buttons, and they have just 123 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: to identify buttons off of clothing and zippers and fasteners 124 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: and all that stuff. Well, they have the same thing 125 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: for tires, and so if you have a tire, for instance, 126 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: you can trace it back if it is oe or 127 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: if it's a replacement tire, okay. And so if these 128 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: bicycles are found and say the equipment has been changed 129 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: to have at some point time, maybe they blew out 130 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: a tire or the tire became worn or something like that, 131 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: you can actually go back and trace it to the 132 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: replacement manufacturer and you know who might distribute this particular 133 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: tire in a location. And another thing with tire with 134 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: with tires themselves, they leave behind a mark, okay, particularly 135 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: on soft soil. We see this all the time relative 136 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: to motor vehicles when we're assessing a crime scene. But 137 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: tires are the same way, and they have specific wear 138 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: patterns as well. And it's even more specific with bicycles 139 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: because bicycles directly support the weight of an individual. Okay, 140 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: And this is kind of fascinating because with cars, you know, 141 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: it has a major suspension system, shock absorbers, all that stuff. 142 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: So the weight of an individual is not going to 143 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: impact a motor vehicle four wheel motor vehicle as much 144 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: as it will, say, for instance, a bicycle tire. So 145 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: if you're riding a bicycle and you're larger, there will 146 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: be distinct, heavy impressions left behind. So if you get 147 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: off of this road and you're riding on a dirt surface, 148 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: maybe the tire tracks just suddenly end. Well suddenly, you know, 149 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: if you find that bike, you can marry it up 150 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: to that track in particular, and that could be a 151 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: piece of evidence here because we don't know where these 152 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: bikes wound up. But what if the perpetrator went back 153 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: after maybe, for instance, he did grieve his harm to 154 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: these individuals and kill them and then road each bike 155 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: down the hill into a place where he deposited them. Well, 156 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: those tracks will be specific to that bicycle and also 157 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: the weight of the individual that was riding it. And 158 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: it's just one of those little nuanced areas that we 159 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: look at in investigations. What about the distance traveled in 160 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: the search, because obviously you're not going to have near 161 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: the mileage covered with a bicycle that you're gonna have 162 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: with the car, So how do you calculate how far 163 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: to extend your search. Well, I think that conversely, you're 164 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: not going to have um as smaller than areas you 165 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: might if an individual as a pedestrian, So you you're 166 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: gonna kind of split the difference. You know, you have 167 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: to think You've got four friends riding along on bicycles, 168 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: and boy, would they stand out. I just had that 169 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: thought that came to me. You know, boy would they 170 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: stand out if they're pulling wagons behind a bicycle. I've 171 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: seen wagons behind bicycles, you know, I've got grandkids. You 172 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: go to the beach and take bikes, and you can 173 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: get the little attachments that go on the back. And 174 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: yet there are actual wagons to wield, wagons that you 175 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: can pull behind a bike. Maybe they're homemade. They're really 176 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: gonna stand out. And you know, certainly you would be 177 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: able to go a greater distance if you're not pulling 178 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: the load as opposed to coming back if you filled 179 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: up these wagons. And I think a lot of it 180 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: has to do with the physical condition that the individual 181 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: will sort in at that particular time, the road and 182 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: weather conditions. How hot was it Oklahoma can get pretty 183 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: hot even into you know that time of year when 184 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: you're getting into the end of September early October. Could 185 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: they have continued Did they have any drugs on board? 186 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: Maybe that is yet to be determined. So all of 187 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: those factors are going to play into this. And also 188 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: how serviceable were these bicycles that they were on or 189 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: was there sufficient inflation in the tires, because that's a 190 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: big deal with a bicycle where they mechanically sound. How 191 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: far could you go on this saying I don't know, 192 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: Maybe they're brand new bikes and you can ride from 193 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 1: one end of Oklahoma to the other end of Oklahoma, 194 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 1: drive all the way up and panhandled for all I know. 195 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: But you have to take all of those factors into 196 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: consideration in addition to are you riding on unimproved roads 197 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: or improved roads? Is this an area that is a 198 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: two lane black top that's recently been topped, or is 199 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: this an area where you've got a dirt road, perhaps 200 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: it's out of gravel base to it, you're not gonna 201 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: be able to make as much distance. Or is it 202 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: a road that is poorly surfaced, maybe it's eroded in 203 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: some way. You're having to dodge potholes and that takes 204 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: a toll on the individual operating the bicycle over a 205 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: period of time. So I think that all those factors 206 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: will come into play. And good old technology plays into 207 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: this too, because police turned to digital information to help 208 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: track the four men's movements after they left the home. 209 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: Mark Chastain's wife used an app on her phone. Her 210 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: husband's phone was tracked to a salvage yard, to a 211 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: local gas station, and then to a second scrap yard 212 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: using the data from that app on Mark Chastain's wife's phone. 213 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,719 Speaker 1: Good old technology, Joe, Yeah, who would have thunk it 214 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: relative to a bicycle, right, I mean, obviously stands the 215 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: reason everyone well everybody is kind of an overstatement, but 216 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: many people carry phones now, more I think do than don't. 217 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: And so you've got, you know, this modern technology of 218 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: a phone that is essentially having an impact here relative 219 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: to somebody riding a bicycle a non motorized vehicle going 220 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: down the road, and yeah, they can track them with this. 221 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: And you know another thing is is really crucial here 222 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: because with this mechanism put these phones that they're tracking, 223 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: one of the things that you get back is a 224 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: time signature, and so depended upon the time of day 225 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: and depended upon the individuals that may, say, for instance, 226 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: travel up and down that road, say couriers or people 227 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: that are delivered people, or whatever the case might be. 228 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: They have certain timetables that they stick to. And then 229 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: you've got people that are going to work, coming home 230 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: from work, leaving to go out and get groceries, and 231 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: maybe somebody saw something during that period of time, and 232 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: that's where canvassing comes in on the part the detectives. 233 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: They would go up and down this road and they're 234 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: gonna visit every home along the thoroughfare, and they're gonna 235 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: knock on doors and they're gonna say, hey, look, did 236 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: you happen to see four guys on bicycles with wagons 237 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: behind them? And you know it's not that's not a 238 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: passive thing. That's something that's like, yeah, I did, and 239 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe what I was seeing when I saw them. 240 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: Or maybe somebody might say, hey, you know what those 241 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: guys are up and down this road all the time 242 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: I've seen them. They all traveled together on these bicycles 243 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: towing these wagons behind them. The leave going down the 244 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: road and they're empty and they come back and they're 245 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: filled with stuff so there's a lot of data that 246 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: is going to point you to certain points along the 247 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: continuum along this timeline, if you will, relative to activity, location, time, 248 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: all those sorts of things. And I gotta tell you, Jackie, 249 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: one of the things that that really stands out to 250 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: me is that according to the police, apparently know that 251 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: second scrapyard that you mentioned, Jackie. That's gonna be key 252 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: because that is where the phone was actually turned off. 253 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: And I don't know. The sheriff actually said in a 254 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: property just at Jason, just at Jason, to that scrapyard 255 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: where that phone went dead or went silent. He thinks 256 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: that a violent act occurred. And it's the only thing, 257 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: you say, a muddy river. Why in the world would 258 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: you go to all of the trouble of shooting four 259 00:15:55,160 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: grown men, taking the bodies of the part and then 260 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: going to a river and toss them in there. I 261 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: think that that's a head scratcher for me, because we know, 262 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: just as I said earlier, that people go fishing in rivers, 263 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: people visit rivers all of the time. Why river, Why 264 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: not some out of the way place to bury? Why 265 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: not burn? But for some reason, the individual that did 266 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: this chose to go to the Grand Fork River. Well, 267 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: before we get to the river, we know that violent 268 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: event police believe happened next to the second scrapyard. So 269 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: my question do you is how do you kill four 270 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: grown men in a shorter period of time? How do 271 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: you subdue four men at once? I mean you're looking 272 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: at immediacy boom boom, boom boom for the perpetrator to 273 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: be able to survive this himself. It's not like you 274 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: would shoot one person, wait ten or fifteen minutes and 275 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: shoot somebody else. So how do you think the shootings happened? 276 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: I got three things I want to explore here. First 277 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: off is going to be speed. Whoever did this would 278 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: have had to have acted in great speed because it's 279 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: you know, potentially one person that's involved in this, so 280 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 1: they will have to be very quick with what they're 281 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: gonna do. And that speed is going to involve a 282 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: weapon that is probably going to have a high capacity. 283 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: Along with the speed, you're going to have to have 284 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: a number of bullets. You know, you'll have to have 285 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 1: potentially a lot of ammunition in the magazine. Secondly, it's 286 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,239 Speaker 1: going to be accuracy. You've got four guys, you know, 287 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: after you dropped the first guy, unless they're subdued in 288 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: some way that we're not aware of yet, where they're tied, 289 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: for instance, and they are immobile, maybe they're laying on 290 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: the ground. Maybe he has initially subdued them in some way. 291 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: Maybe he shot them in a way that didn't bring 292 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: about their lives immediately, but he tied them up put 293 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: them on the ground. You're going to have to be 294 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,479 Speaker 1: accurate with the weapon, and skilled accuracy goes to skill 295 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: in this particular case, so you would have to be 296 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: skilled and familiar with the weapon that you're using. And 297 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: I think third, you're going to have to have a 298 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: weapon unless you were a pinpoint accurate, You're gonna have 299 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: to have a weapon that potentially has a high muzzle velocity, 300 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: something that's very powerful when you take them down. Because 301 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: you can bring a smaller caliber weapon to bear, say 302 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: like a twenty two rifle, but just because you hit 303 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: somebody with a twenty two rifle doesn't mean that you're 304 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: gonna take them down. So I'm thinking maybe maybe I 305 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 1: have no idea, but maybe something like a military platform 306 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: type weapon that has potentially a high capacity magazine or 307 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: another type of weapon platform that might be involved in 308 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: This could in fact be something like a shotgun. Okay 309 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: that Scott say, load with buckshot, where you're gonna be 310 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: able to maybe take out two people at one time. 311 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: Who knows at this point. For all I know, we've 312 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: got a perpetrator that is a world class pistol champion 313 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: and they're using, you know, a nine millimeter handgun or something. 314 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: We don't have quite enough information. We do know in 315 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: fact that all four of these individuals were in fact shot, 316 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: and in order to disable them, to kill them and 317 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: get them in this specific location, you're gonna have to 318 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 1: have a lot of factors that are going to come 319 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: into play at once. This is not the movies. Okay. 320 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: People react to the sound of gunfire. So if you're 321 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: the first guy that gets shot, there's an awareness. First off, 322 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: you've heard a crack in the air. You've heard a crack. 323 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: If you're one of the other guys, you see your 324 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: buddy dropped to the ground. Maybe he's groaning in pain. 325 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe he does instantly. But there's gonna 326 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: be an awareness on the other three, on the parts 327 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: of the other three, So what do you do at 328 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: that moment time? Are you a deer in headlights? Are 329 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: you gonna bold? Are you going to try to run 330 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: for the bushes? Are you gonna try to I don't know, 331 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: just get away, hide behind something. Are you gonna get 332 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: down your knees and beg for your life? You know, 333 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: it's hard to know what that dynamic was at that 334 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: particular time, or were they just in a position where 335 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: they couldn't extricate themselves from it, they were just in 336 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: a position where they were just they were going to 337 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: be shot and they were going to be killed, or 338 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: right there in that location, because like I said, they 339 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: had been restrained in some way. So we'll know a 340 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: bit and more as this begins to develop and as 341 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: time goes by. But I find one of the things 342 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: I find very interesting about what the sheriff said, Jackie, 343 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: is that this is an area where a violent act 344 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,239 Speaker 1: took place, and I think more than likely, it's very 345 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: important that we kind of try to define, well, what 346 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: does the violin act mean? It would mean to me, 347 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: not just the shooting, but where the dismemberment took place. 348 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: At first blood, I'm thinking the same thing, and you know, 349 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: what what is I think? You know, I don't want 350 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: to wax to philosophical here, But what is violence? You know, what, 351 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: how do you define violence? And what does that mean 352 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: in this context? Because if you say in an outdoor, 353 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: open area, and I'm assuming that that's what this is, 354 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: I think probably the first thing that everybody's mind runs 355 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: to it and I can almost bet you dollars to 356 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: donuts right now, is the first thing you think about 357 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: is an area involving a lot of blood. A lot 358 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: of blood that's going to be out there at that 359 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: specific area. And maybe the ground was super saturated. Maybe 360 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: it was on surface of plastic and the person didn't 361 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: really the plastic. Maybe it's on leaves that have fallen 362 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: and you see contact traces of blood all over the place. 363 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: Maybe the ground where this event took place, the dirt itself. 364 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: Maybe it's a sandy soil out there. You can actually 365 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: walk over and see evidence of it. You know, I've 366 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: worked cases where there was no longer a body, but 367 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: there was a huge there was a huge area of 368 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: blood in that area. And you know, one of the 369 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: things that I solved very commonly that people might not 370 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: think about. I think the general public always associates the 371 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: development of maggots and fly activity and that sort of 372 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: thing can place on bodies. But did you know that 373 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: in the absence of a body, but with the presence 374 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: of blood, you can have maggot activity in that area 375 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: as well. I've walked out to areas where people had 376 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: been killed and then removed and there would be pools 377 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: of what was blood, and of course it was turning 378 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: at that point in time, and it would just be 379 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: writhing with maggots and you'd have flies buzzing all around. 380 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: The flies will develop in those areas, particularly if it's 381 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: in direct sunlight. You'll have ants that are in that area. 382 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: You'll have all manner of insect life in that area 383 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: because what are they're seeking out While they're seeking out 384 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: the protein it's contained in that blood, and so you'll 385 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: have this kind of larval development that's going on there 386 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: even in the absence of blood not And the reason 387 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm emphasizing this, and I think that this is kind 388 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: of interesting, is that how did the police know that 389 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: this was an area where a violent event took place? 390 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: Because we kind of mentioned this early on that the 391 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: bodies were found in the river. So what's going to 392 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: draw them to that specific location. Was it just the 393 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: sight of blood? Or was it the fact that you 394 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: had larval development in there and you step over that 395 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: area and the next thing you know, And this is 396 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: very common as well, and I've I've had this happen. 397 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: You'll have flies that are actually, you know, in dwelling bodies, 398 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: arresting on bodies, and once you show up, they begin 399 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: to light on you as well. They're coming off of 400 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: those bodies, are off of that body and lighting on 401 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: your person as an investigator. I don't think any people 402 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: really realize that, and you'll have them crawling all over you. 403 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: And I really wonder if if maybe that had happened, 404 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: or maybe it a smell that drew them over there. 405 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: Because blood gets off decompositional odor just like ani body does. 406 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: You can actually catch a whiff of it. I wonder 407 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: if they were drawn there by smell, but something drew 408 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: them there to where they recognize that something horrible had 409 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: happened in that specific location. If this is indeed the 410 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: location where the dismemberment took place, you have the possibility 411 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: of commingling of blood. Walk me through the steps in 412 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: a lab in an autopsy to be able to distinguish 413 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: how many blood types or blood sources that you have. Yeah, 414 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: this is a nightmare, to say the very least. Early 415 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: on as an investigator, you you learn that you just 416 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: don't work on the assumption that something is what you 417 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: think it is as a result of what you've observed 418 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: with the naked eye. You cannot work on that assumption. 419 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 1: And so just because you see a red dried spot 420 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: or red wet spot on a surface, you you can 421 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 1: think in your mind that yeah, that's blood. But would 422 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: I write that in a report without confirming it. No way, 423 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: no way. You never do that. So you have to 424 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: be able to take blood samples from this location. They 425 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: would have taken it. And this is assuming that there 426 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: is blood there. You're gonna take blood samples from multiple 427 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: let's say we have a huge pool of blood. I 428 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: love the fact that you use the term commingle, Jackie. 429 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: That's that's fantastic, because that's what's going to happen. Blood 430 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: is very viscous, but it is a liquid, and so 431 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: if you've got bodies that are layered on top of 432 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: one another, you will have a commingling of blood, particularly 433 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: if you've got gunshot ones where you've got seepage that's 434 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: going on and then on top of that, you may 435 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: have had this dismemberment activity that's going on there and 436 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: you're gonna generate a volume of blood associated with that. So, 437 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: when when this blood is essentially collected from the scene, 438 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: and it would be collected in a variety of different locations, 439 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: multiple samples from all over this area, it will be 440 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: taken out and it will be typed. Now, the type 441 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: when you begin to type this blood, well, first off, 442 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: you have to confirm that it's blood, and there's a 443 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: variety of tests that we go through to do that. 444 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: Once this unknown substance that you suspect is blood is 445 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: brought back to the lab and examined, at that point 446 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: in time, you're going to conduct a test at the 447 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: lab to confirm that it is in fact blood. And 448 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: then it's at that point in time that once you've 449 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: made that determination, you're going to be able to begin 450 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: the process of typing the blood. And there's major groups 451 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: that we look for. We look for OH, we look 452 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: for B, we look for A, we look for a B. 453 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: And so you can potentially have those groups and if 454 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: you have, say, for instance, two ohs, you're going to 455 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: try to determine whether or not it's so positive or negative, okay, 456 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: and you'll have this commingling that's going on. And the 457 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: trick is to try to separate, you know, all of 458 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: these samples and see if there is I think nowadays 459 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: as well, one of the things you have factor in here, 460 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: is there recoverable DNA out of that blood, because the 461 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: DNA sample that you're going to get out of that 462 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: blood is going to be far more specific than just, say, 463 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: for instance, a blood type. Dr Carl landstein Er Universe 464 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: iified how to type blood, you know, back in the 465 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. It's nothing new. It's something we've been doing 466 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: for a long time. It's just that it's taken a 467 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: while for it to kind of develop to the point 468 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: now where yeah, the blood is essentially a medium for 469 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: us to get to the DNA and that's where the 470 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: real tail is going to be told. The process itself 471 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: is very, very complicated in order to separate it out 472 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: to this specific point, and you will they will, in 473 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,479 Speaker 1: fact do blood typing tests that are very specific and 474 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: react to particular types of blood, so you will get 475 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: a a specific indicator in this test that it is 476 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,479 Speaker 1: in fact a a pause, A neg o pause, oh 477 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: neg The trick is to go back and since you 478 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: have known victims, now that you've recovered the bodies, you 479 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 1: have to try to understand who these individuals are. If 480 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: you know who they are, and you already know from 481 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: an anti morn before death standpoint who they are, maybe 482 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: the family or maybe the hospital will know what their 483 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: blood type is. And at that point in time, once 484 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: it's separated out, and once you identify the individual types, 485 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: it's at that point that you can then tied back 486 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: to the individual bodies and hopefully you can retrieve DNA 487 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: from it. Not all blood types are interchangeable. You know 488 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: this from trying to give blood. There is a universal donor, 489 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: but if you are at an a you can't give 490 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: blood to somebody who's not. So when you retrieve a 491 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: sample from the ground from a body from anywhere and 492 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: it is too different blood types, what does that look 493 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: like on a slide or or how you look at them. 494 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,479 Speaker 1: Does it separate, does it blend? Does it what does 495 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: it do? Well, it's going to be at a molecular 496 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: level and you will be able to identify these markers 497 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: that are contained on the surface of the red blood 498 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: cell itself. And this is going to what's called the 499 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,719 Speaker 1: rh factor in the blood, and so they will present 500 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: in a very particular way that is unique to that 501 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: particular blood type, and that's the way you can identify 502 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: them in testing in the laboratory, so to kind of 503 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: pull them apart. And one of the problems with commingling 504 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: of blood is that the blood itself begins to literally 505 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,239 Speaker 1: separate as it goes through the process of decomposition. So 506 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: you'll have you'll have the blood cells begin to separate away, 507 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: the RBC's red blood cells, they begin to separate away 508 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: from the serum, and you'll see this kind of migration 509 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: that takes place. You can see it really well on 510 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: the floor, like on a solid, you know, smooth floor surface. 511 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: You'll see the serum that when it separates out, it's 512 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: got kind of a yellow color to it. And there's 513 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: a time factor that's associated with that. And a lot 514 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: of people have opined that potentially, when you have exposed 515 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: blood on surfaces like this, that this is a way 516 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: to determine post mortal interval, but they haven't been able 517 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: to kind of lock that down to the point where 518 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: they can use that as a mechanism for that purpose. 519 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: But once those blood cells are separated out and they 520 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: are collected. It's at that point that the testing can 521 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: be done and then the specific blood types by virtue 522 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: of the rh factor that they're tested for. You know, 523 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: where these little antigen set up on the cells themselves, 524 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: you'll be able to determine what type of blood it 525 00:30:47,160 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: is and from whom it originating. M y'all will catch 526 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: a glimpse of something out of the corner of your eye, 527 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: maybe when you're going down the road. You can't believe 528 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: that possibly you just saw what you think you saw, 529 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: or maybe just walking down the street. That's happened to 530 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: me many times, and it's almost like you want to 531 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: back up and confirm what your eyes saw, and your 532 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: brain is saying no, no, no, no, there's no way 533 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: you saw that. You want to maybe hanging you and 534 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: go back and see if if that was real. For 535 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: that moment, I can not begin to imagine what it 536 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: would be like to be a civilian driving down the 537 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,479 Speaker 1: road and look over maybe the edge of the bridge 538 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: and look down into that muddy water and see something 539 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: that just didn't fit. And that's pretty much what happened. 540 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: The bodies were discovered after someone called police saying they 541 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: saw something, but we're not sure were what they saw, 542 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: and they needed police to go check it out. And 543 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: that's how it was discovered that these bodies were dismembered. 544 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: Paint a picture for me of what that could have 545 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: possibly been, Joe. It's not been released yet, but I mean, 546 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: are we looking at what a bone sticking up at 547 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,719 Speaker 1: this point? I mean, would whatever the person saw had 548 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: been skeletonized by this point, not in this shorter period 549 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: of time. Maybe what they had seen may have been 550 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: a bloated torso when they looked over there. Because one 551 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: of the things that happens during the process of decomposition, 552 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: and you know, you hear people talk about bodies being swollen, 553 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: Well that that's true, and they're swollen because there is 554 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: a process that's called holicis that's going on in the body, 555 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: and it's at a cellular level. One. Essentially, the body 556 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: begins to lack of a better terminology, body is beginning 557 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: to digest itself. Well, what's the product of digestion. Well, 558 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,479 Speaker 1: one of the products is gas us, and so bodies 559 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: begin to swell, and when they swell, they float and 560 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: you look down and I can only imagine through my 561 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: own mind's eye. You're looking into this watery area down there, 562 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: and you see this kind of round, bulbous things sticking 563 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: up by the water. And I've come across bodies like 564 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: this before. And you look down and you see this 565 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: odd shape in the water, and maybe maybe to this 566 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: person it looked like a body. They didn't know, but 567 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: I do know this. They went and contacted the authorities 568 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: that said, look, you'all gotta get down here and check 569 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: this out, because it's not just one thing I'm seeing. 570 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: I'm seeing several items down here. The question is, I think, 571 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: what was the depth of the water of where these 572 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: remains were found. Is it shallow so that maybe part 573 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: of the remain was touching the bottom and then kind 574 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: of sticking up. And here's another interesting kind of proposition. 575 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: This is on a river, and I wonder the Grand Fork. 576 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: It's like a branch of the Canadian River, and the 577 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: Canadian River is a pretty sizeable river in that part 578 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: of the country. And I wonder if there is a 579 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: damn upstream and they had closed the damn off, perhaps 580 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: in the water level had dropped two And that's something 581 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: you can't really kind of plan on, and by virtue 582 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: of the fact that they saw these items from a 583 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 1: from a position of height looking down on it. Remember 584 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: there in a car when they see it. Maybe if 585 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: the perpetrator just simply went to the bridge and tossed 586 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: these items over and decided to be done with it, 587 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: as opposed to say, for instance, going out into the 588 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: water even further and depositing those items out there, maybe 589 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: you wouldn't have seen them as readily, but it maybe 590 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: it was a matter of convenience. And that can be 591 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: a clue for you if you're an investigator in a 592 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: case like this, because if you're in a car, maybe 593 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: maybe it's late at night, maybe you've accomplished this horrible 594 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: task of dismembering these bodies, and you get pull up 595 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: in your car or your truck and you begin to 596 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: toss them out. Well, when you do that, any remnant 597 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: of blood there would have been blood would transfer into 598 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: the vehicle. So if you find you know we're talking 599 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: about blood just a few months ago, If you have 600 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: find blood that is specific to one of these victims 601 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: that's in the car, you have a lot of explaining 602 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: to do to the authorities at that point in time. 603 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: You know, you don't know this guy, How did his 604 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,439 Speaker 1: blood make it into your vehicle? And they're gonna ask 605 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: you questions, was your vehicle would you the entire time yesterday, 606 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 1: did you have the keys? Did you lend it to anybody? 607 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: Because they're gonna knock down all of those possibilities as 608 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: far as an alibi goes. The cops are gonna ask 609 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: those questions and I'll expect to have answers to them. 610 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: And the trick is you have to get your hands 611 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: on that vehicle as soon as you can as an investigator, 612 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: so it's not cleaned up or there's an attempt to 613 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: eradicate anything in there, and then go through that vehicle 614 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 1: to find toothcomb and find any kind of human remain 615 00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: that might be in there, whether it's tissue. You know, 616 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 1: we're talking about a dismemberment here, so you can have 617 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: bits of tissue and have bits of bone, bone dust, 618 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: and of course you don't have blood as well. The 619 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,919 Speaker 1: information released on the depths of these four men tell 620 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: us that they were shot and dismembered. Once the bodies 621 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 1: are recovered, how does those two facts interfere with finding 622 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: out what happened? It can be a gigantic roadblock for you, 623 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 1: because most of the cases of dismemberment that I've that 624 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: I've either worked or or have observed as working in 625 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: a morgue or certainly unseen as as an investigator, they 626 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: don't come off with surgical precision. The perpetrators generally cut 627 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: wherever it's convenient for them, where they think they need 628 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: to do it. Now, if you have somebody and this 629 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: this is a real thing, if you have somebody that 630 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: has a background in butchering, they but or meat before pigs, cows, 631 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: that's where I think they're gonna know what types of 632 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: instruments to show up with. But for the most part, 633 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: these are not surgical cuts that are being done. There 634 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: are a lot of times where you'll find, say, for instance, 635 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: if somebody has been blasted with a shotgun and they 636 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: are dismembered, say, for instance, they're blasting in the leg. Well, automatically, 637 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: if you're the person doing the dismemberment, a goodly portion 638 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: of your job at that point could have already been 639 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 1: done for you. You're just gonna have to saw through 640 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: the bone. You're not gonna have to cut through the legs. 641 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 1: So it'll be a very atypical kind of incision. And 642 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: also sawn that goes on in the dismemberment process. So 643 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: it's it's going to be very randomized. And so if 644 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: you have wounds, bullet wounds that are tracking through the body. 645 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: Let's say, for instance, you've got somebody that's shot in 646 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: the back and it's tracking from say above to below 647 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 1: and from right to left. It goes across what's called 648 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: the media stun them, which is like the mid part 649 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,439 Speaker 1: of the body, and it exits out of the rib 650 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: wealth on. It comes in on the right rear and 651 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: exits side of the front left out of a rib cage. Then, 652 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: in order for the individual to do that dissection them, 653 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: I say, well, hey, I'll just I'll cut across the 654 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: trunk of the body. Well, when you start to get 655 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: into the trunk of the body, it's at that point 656 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: in time that you've disrupted that bullet path, and so 657 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: it's hard to make heads or tails out of it. 658 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: And then you know, if you have individuals. One of 659 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: the things that I found kind of curious over the 660 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: years is that with dismemberment cases, it's amazing how many 661 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: cases that we have where the heads are missing. And 662 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: some people will say, well, serial killers will do that 663 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: and take them as trophies. Yeah, they do. But if 664 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 1: you have heads that have been taken off of bodies, 665 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: sometimes individuals, the heads will be separated in the sense 666 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: that they're dismembered or removed from the rest of body, 667 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: but they'll also get separated in disposal. So if you've 668 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 1: got a subject that has been shot in the head, 669 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: you might not be able to account for that gunshot 670 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: wounded that they have and that's gone. You know, it's 671 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: not like it's just going to be there necessarily nestled 672 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,399 Speaker 1: against the rest of the remains, unless, of course their 673 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: package together. That hearkens back to any number of cases 674 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: they are out there where heads were missing off of 675 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: some pretty infamous cases. So you're not going to have 676 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: everything in total, and of course you know that that's 677 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,800 Speaker 1: going to create also another problem. How in the world, 678 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 1: How in the world do you get all of these 679 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: parts back together again? When it comes to retrieving the 680 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:47,840 Speaker 1: body parts, how is it done? Each part is transported 681 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: to the morgue or the corner's office wherever the autopsy 682 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: is going to be done or the body is going 683 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 1: to be stored. But I'm confused. If you want a 684 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,839 Speaker 1: body art to not sweat and stay pristine. As we've 685 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 1: talked before about bagging hands, you use paper, but body 686 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: bags are plastic or rubber. What's the difference. Wow, you 687 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: just made a point, Jackie that not many people pick 688 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: up on. We do talk about using paper as opposed 689 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: to plastic one And isn't it interesting? And I'm not 690 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: trying to diminish the dead, but what I am saying 691 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 1: is that with a body, the deceased or the remains 692 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: of the deceased are essentially the biggest piece of evidence 693 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: that you have. So what do we do well? Practice 694 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: has always been that you look for those points of 695 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,839 Speaker 1: contact that are the higher probability or harvest evidence from. 696 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: So that's why we bagged the hands. Specifically, I've bagged 697 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: heads before that are attached to the bodies. In this case, 698 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 1: when you have a a dismemberment, my suspicion is is 699 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: that you would take a clean white sheet and you 700 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: would individually wrap each dismembered portion of the body. Okay, 701 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: there's no way, I mean no way at the scene 702 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: that if you've got these dispersed over what would be 703 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 1: called a field and evidence field lying on the bottom 704 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: down there, there's no way at the scene that you 705 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: can kind of reassemble the body out there, that the 706 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,399 Speaker 1: conditions are not conducive to that. And like you said, 707 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: in Oklahoma where they have a state medical Examiner's office, 708 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: it is going to be incumbent to get all of 709 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: those pieces wrapped. I don't know if they use bags paperbacks, 710 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: but you would wrap them certainly in clean white sheet 711 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: individually and then place them into a body bag. And 712 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: that's the way it happens. And yes, they are rubberized plastic, 713 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: and you would get them to the mortgage soon as 714 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: you can. And it's at that point in time that 715 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 1: you can begin to try to make a determination as 716 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,879 Speaker 1: to who goes with what part at that point in time, 717 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,919 Speaker 1: and how do you do that? Yeah, it's tough. One 718 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 1: of the interesting things here is if we can just 719 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: kind of back up a little bit, is that we 720 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: know that the bodies were dismembered. Okay, that's been stated clearly, 721 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: So how were they dismembered? What tool was utilized. Let's 722 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: say you're talking like with a sharp edged instrument that 723 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: it's more of a crushing instrument, where we're talking about 724 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: a mall, which is like an axe, but it also 725 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: looks like a sledgehammer on one side and an axe 726 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 1: head on the other. Tremendous crushing injury. With that way, 727 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: if you slam down into a body with a mall, 728 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,399 Speaker 1: you're not gonna have a clean cut. As a matter 729 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: of fact, You're gonna crush the bone, okay, And it 730 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,879 Speaker 1: would be very difficult, I think, at least just from 731 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 1: the skeletal perspective, to marry that bone up with the 732 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 1: attachment safe about an arm is is taken away at 733 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: near the shoulder. It would be hard to say mid humorous. 734 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:00,839 Speaker 1: It would be very difficult to marry that up if 735 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: it's a crushing type of instrument, whereas if you use 736 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,399 Speaker 1: hacks off, it will leave specific identifying marks and it's 737 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: almost like putting a puzzle together, And you have to 738 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: think of it that way in the more and you 739 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: would take a lot of time to see if you 740 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 1: can actually get this thing to kind of marry up 741 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: with the marks that are left behind, and it would 742 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 1: be that simple. Certainly a more scientific approach, and I 743 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: suspect that they probably did this because the medical examiner 744 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 1: in the state of alcohum is very sophisticated. I would 745 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: imagine that they would do DNA sampling from each one 746 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: of these remains, I mean every single piece that has 747 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,080 Speaker 1: been dismembered, and they would wait for those results to 748 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: come back before they actually essentially marshal all of the 749 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: pieces back together again and then release the bodies to 750 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,839 Speaker 1: the families. You know, one thing that we did not 751 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: touch on about recovery of these bodies. You know, for me, 752 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,120 Speaker 1: this is there's something disturbing about this. And I have 753 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,800 Speaker 1: to give a tip of the cap to police divers, 754 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: particularly those that are skilled at crime scene underwater crime scene. 755 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: When you're in a river on Grand Fork up there 756 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 1: in Oklahoma. That river, if you go into that river, 757 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: I would suspect that if you held your hand up 758 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: in front of your face, you would not be able 759 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,840 Speaker 1: to see it six inches out. It's that muddy most 760 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: of the time, and these remains are kind of floating about. 761 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 1: Maybe someone were resting on the bottom. So I guess 762 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,879 Speaker 1: what the divers have to do. This is a this 763 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: is a a feel event where they go in there 764 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,240 Speaker 1: and they are going to actually feel along the bottom 765 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: and maybe they're submerged and they're kind of crawling along 766 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 1: the bottom and touching all of these spaces, and they 767 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 1: literally have to do it with a certain amount of precision, 768 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: just like we do at a crime scene. But can 769 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 1: you imagine working a crime scene blind, Because that's what 770 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: they're doing. They have to document each one of these 771 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: dismembered remains where they rest, and I've seen them where 772 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: they'll take actual and really deep water. What they'll do 773 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,919 Speaker 1: is they will attach these little flags that have little 774 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 1: booies on them, float on the surface and attach them 775 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: to the bottom and you'll see these flags all come 776 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: floating out there in the water. And to snap a 777 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: picture of that, it gives you an idea of the 778 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 1: kind of the disbursement pattern that's going on. And then 779 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 1: of course they're skilled at underwater photography, but how are 780 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 1: you going to accomplish that task when you can't see 781 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,440 Speaker 1: your hand in front of your face. So you know, 782 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 1: this is in fact a crime scene and you have 783 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,440 Speaker 1: to document it. You have to document it carefully and 784 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,720 Speaker 1: try to determine where each one of these pieces rest 785 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 1: out there. And once they're collected, of course, you know, 786 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: you go through the process that we talked about getting 787 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 1: these remains back to the State Medical Examiner's office so 788 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,520 Speaker 1: they can begin the process of putting them together and 789 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: ultimately trying to determine what happened and when it happened. 790 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: As it stands right now, a person of interest is 791 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 1: being questioned, but he is not considered a suspect as yet. 792 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: And that man is Joe Kennedy. Again, he is a 793 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 1: person of interest, he has not been named a suspect. 794 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Borgan and this is body Backs