Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Michael Lewis, and this is against the rules.
Speaker 1: This season of the podcast is all about the rise
Speaker 1: of sports gambling in the United States, but none of
Speaker 1: it would be possible if we didn't have such seriously
Speaker 1: emotional fans, in particular football fans, which leads us today
Speaker 1: to the Pittsburgh Steelers. Steeler Nation is so deep and
Speaker 1: so wide that fans can pick from any number of
Speaker 1: fight songs, from a Poka themed one by Jimmy Pohl,
Speaker 1: first Steeler, to a hometown tribute by Pittsburgh native Whiz Khalifa,
Speaker 1: and of course they are countless other songs as well.
Speaker 1: The Steelers have been around and owned by the same
Speaker 1: family since nineteen thirty three, where their fans go other
Speaker 1: franchises follow. In the nineteen seventies, Steeler Nation starts to
Speaker 1: wave golden rally towels in the air. They call them
Speaker 1: terrible towels. Soon every team has its own towel, but
Speaker 1: those other towels, They're not terrible. It's just not the same.
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh is the crucible of modern fandom. So that's why
Speaker 1: I had to call up Marcy Cottingham. She's an associate
Speaker 1: professor of sociology at Kenyon College in Ohio, but she
Speaker 1: comes from Pittsburgh and from this gravitational center of football.
Speaker 1: She studies the feelings and rituals of fans.
Speaker 2: I kind of just grew up surrounded by sports fandom.
Speaker 2: My father was a very big Steelers fan. We would
Speaker 2: listen to Myron Cope. I don't know if you know
Speaker 2: who that is, but we would listen to Myron Cope
Speaker 2: on the radio driving home from church every Sunday. And
Speaker 2: I moved away for five years when I got my
Speaker 2: undergrad degree, and that I moved back.
Speaker 3: To get my master's degree.
Speaker 2: And it was in that transition back that it really
Speaker 2: became odd to me, Like I suddenly started to see
Speaker 2: familiar things as strange.
Speaker 1: What was it that, can you remember what like caught
Speaker 1: your eye? It's like being in a Martian in your
Speaker 1: own life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing was seeing that every door in
Speaker 2: the frozen food aisle section of my grocery store had
Speaker 2: a terrible towel tucked into the handle during one of
Speaker 2: the seasons. And I remember just being really struck by
Speaker 2: the pervasiveness of this object throughout the city. As I
Speaker 2: was kind of acclimating to life there.
Speaker 1: Why do you think you never saw it before.
Speaker 2: In sociology, we have this idea of we kind of
Speaker 2: internalize and are socialized to really take for granted what
Speaker 2: we see early on. Right, it just becomes natural to us.
Speaker 2: It's just the things are.
Speaker 1: And you explain what the Terrible towel is.
Speaker 2: I can't remember the exact dimensions, but it's basically the
Speaker 2: size of a hand towel.
Speaker 3: It is kind of a bright.
Speaker 2: Yellow gold color with black lettering on it that described
Speaker 2: as the Terrible Towel. It was created by Myron Cope Hartly,
Speaker 2: I believe to kind of fundraise money.
Speaker 1: So I said to them, I'm not a gimmick guy.
Speaker 1: I've never been a gimmick guy. And they said to me,
Speaker 1: your contract comes up for renewal in a.
Speaker 4: Few months, and I said, well, let me see if
Speaker 4: I can think of a gimmick.
Speaker 2: So, and initially it was supposed to be used for
Speaker 2: like drying off seats at the stadium, but it has
Speaker 2: since its inception kind of morphed into being this symbol
Speaker 2: that has waived during important events during the kind of
Speaker 2: game and fans use it as decoration or grocery stores
Speaker 2: use it as decoration, as I noted, And so it's
Speaker 2: this kind of ubiquitous symbol of stealer's fandom.
Speaker 1: And if you actually someone would actually use it to
Speaker 1: clean the floor or or put their feet on it
Speaker 1: in the stadium, how would people respond?
Speaker 2: Oh, people would go crazy, right, it would be sacrilegious.
Speaker 2: It would be violating this sacred symbol.
Speaker 1: Have you seen that happen?
Speaker 3: I have read about.
Speaker 2: It though, in a couple of news articles about opposing teams,
Speaker 2: but where opposing teams will use the terrible towel, say
Speaker 2: after they get a touchdown, right, and they kind of
Speaker 2: use it to step on or gloat or you know,
Speaker 2: a lead up to a pregame trash talk, right, where
Speaker 2: the terrible towel is used and abused.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: So it is a sacred object and they and the
Speaker 1: other team knows it.
Speaker 2: I mean that that's kind of how I frame it,
Speaker 2: because of the visceral emotional reaction engenders.
Speaker 1: Right, Like I never studied sociology, I forgive you that.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: I you know, I've picked up from time to time
Speaker 1: just as an amateur sociology books and they're riveting and
Speaker 1: it makes me I know, it's a hole in my education.
Speaker 1: But can you just explain the distinction between the sacred
Speaker 1: and the prof of the sacred in the mundane.
Speaker 2: So this distinction sociologically goes back to the work of
Speaker 2: Emil dirk Him. So he's a French philosopher, French social theorist,
Speaker 2: kind of considered the founder, one of the founders of sociology,
Speaker 2: and he makes that distinction between the sacred and the mundane,
Speaker 2: where the mundane is something that is every day we
Speaker 2: use it. It has its utilitarian purpose is front and center.
Speaker 2: To distinguish it from the sacred. We have these objects
Speaker 2: that are kind of set apart. They're not utilitarian, they
Speaker 2: have these special roles that they're supposed to play in
Speaker 2: our lives. Dirkheim was one of the first to really
Speaker 2: use this kind of differentiation to talk about society as
Speaker 2: a whole, as the kind of social collective taking on
Speaker 2: these sacred qualities through rituals.
Speaker 1: Have you yourself ever been emotionally attached to a team, Well,
Speaker 1: I am.
Speaker 2: To Stealers at this point. It's been such a part
Speaker 2: of my career and my life. I do have like,
Speaker 2: whenever I see news about something that's about the Stealers,
Speaker 2: you know I'm actually going to be picking up my
Speaker 2: dad from the airport today, and I know he's going
Speaker 2: to have his Steeler socks on or whatever. Right, and
Speaker 2: so it's a part of my blood in a way
Speaker 2: I can't really get away from it. I will say
Speaker 2: think that there's something about the working class ethos of
Speaker 2: Steeler's fandom in particular, that I also find encouraging and
Speaker 2: interesting to reflect on.
Speaker 1: When you walked into the Steelers Stadium and started to
Speaker 1: just take notes, like what's the purpose of this research?
Speaker 2: The purpose is to try to see and understand ourselves differently. Right.
Speaker 2: I use often in my intro classes the analogy of
Speaker 2: kind of being an alien, where we try to bracket
Speaker 2: out all of our preconceptions and assumptions when we're viewing
Speaker 2: the social world. If I chose something that was somewhat
Speaker 2: personal to me, right, I grew up kind of in
Speaker 2: the area where I was surrounded by it. And so
Speaker 2: it's not just about understanding a group that's out there,
Speaker 2: but also understanding so more broadly, and the importance of
Speaker 2: sport in society, which historically I think has been a
Speaker 2: little bit underappreciated.
Speaker 1: When you go to observe the Steelers. Do you feel
Speaker 1: like you're the first sociologist ever to have done so.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of folks that have done work on this,
Speaker 2: But what I have found when I was starting out
Speaker 2: was that a lot of it took a very kind
Speaker 2: of negative view of fandom and was trying to explain
Speaker 2: violence and destruction and hooliganism that was associated with fandom
Speaker 2: prior to this research, and it didn't necessarily cast fans
Speaker 2: in a very positive light. It suggested that they were
Speaker 2: kind of fanatical, right, as the term suggests that they're
Speaker 2: kind of overcome by their emotions. They can't be trusted,
Speaker 2: they're totally irrational, right. What I wanted to do was
Speaker 2: to not dismiss their emotions as pointless or as problematic,
Speaker 2: but instead to really understand how they could provide a
Speaker 2: sense of belonging and meaning to fans.
Speaker 1: Still emotional as opposed to kind of conventionally rational the
Speaker 1: behavior you're observing, I don't know, it's still difficult to explain.
Speaker 2: Sure, Sure, And a lot of my work I try
Speaker 2: to trouble that neat distinction that says cognition and emotion
Speaker 2: are totally separate from each other. These symbols that sports
Speaker 2: fans use can be transferable. They can be ways of
Speaker 2: connecting with neighbors or connecting with family members, and so
Speaker 2: while they're not rational in a strict way, I don't
Speaker 2: think they're necessarily irrational in a strict way. The common
Speaker 2: caricature is that they are swept up in their emotions
Speaker 2: and that there's no rationality, and the cathartic view is
Speaker 2: basically that, because you know, contemporary modern life requires us
Speaker 2: to exert a degree of restraint over our presentations to
Speaker 2: other people, including our emotional expressions, that we need certain
Speaker 2: outlets or kind of benign valves to release our pent
Speaker 2: up emotions. And much of the work on sport tends
Speaker 2: to think about sports as doing this, like it's just
Speaker 2: this release valve that lets people express.
Speaker 3: All of these pent up emotions.
Speaker 2: And my work argues that we need to instead think
Speaker 2: about emotions as something that's generated from our social interactions
Speaker 2: with other people. And this means that it's through our presence,
Speaker 2: our co presence with other people, our connections to them,
Speaker 2: our use of symbols, those peak kind of ritual interactions
Speaker 2: that we have that particular emotions are generated, Like the
Speaker 2: excitement comes from that moment, not as something deep in
Speaker 2: the psyche of fans that are walking around waiting for
Speaker 2: a place.
Speaker 3: To unleash it.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break. But when we
Speaker 1: come back, how all this excitement translates to grown men
Speaker 1: stripping to their underwear in the freezing Pittsburgh cold. I'm
Speaker 1: back with Pittsburgh Steelers fan and scholar Marcy Cottingham. So
Speaker 1: what did you do? Did you go for the whole season?
Speaker 2: I went for tailgating and sports bars and then two
Speaker 2: different games. And we hadn't initially thought we would be
Speaker 2: able to go to a game, but it turned out
Speaker 2: that when we were at a sports bar, believe it
Speaker 2: or not, a woman came up to us and gave
Speaker 2: us tickets, so we were able to actually go to Hinesfield,
Speaker 2: which ended up being pretty critical.
Speaker 1: Why would it have been so difficult to go to
Speaker 1: a game?
Speaker 2: Well, the waiting list for getting tickets, the price. I
Speaker 2: was a very poor grad student. Oh, I see, they're
Speaker 2: in high demand, as you can imagine.
Speaker 1: And you so described me like a couple of things
Speaker 1: you saw when you're in your martian mode that you
Speaker 1: that you thought worth noting.
Speaker 2: There were two in particular that still really stand out
Speaker 2: to me just kind of observing the interactions of fans
Speaker 2: in the stadium. I saw the interactions that my informant,
Speaker 2: who I call Kevin, had with people that were absolute strangers,
Speaker 2: and I was struck by the amount of just camaraderie
Speaker 2: and connection that he was able to have with these
Speaker 2: people that he had never met before. So, for example,
Speaker 2: there was one really spectacular play I think it was
Speaker 2: in the fourth quarter of one of the games that
Speaker 2: we saw, and there were two gentlemen in front of us,
Speaker 2: and the one began to strip off his clothing. So
Speaker 2: it was in December, very cold, he had many layers on,
Speaker 2: but he literally peeled off his layers to stand there
Speaker 2: bare chested, screaming that, you know, obviously out of exuberance
Speaker 2: that the Steelers had done so well. And then immediately
Speaker 2: after that, another great play happened and his friend, who
Speaker 2: was next to him, also started to peel off his labors,
Speaker 2: stripped down and then kind of clasp hands with his
Speaker 2: friend and scream in each other's faces, and it was
Speaker 2: really wild to watch, and then they proceeded to high five.
Speaker 2: So that sense of like connection with each other that
Speaker 2: really emerged during that peak emotional experience was fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: And nobody around them would have thought this behavior strange.
Speaker 3: Absolutely not.
Speaker 4: No, did you lean in and say, sir, why did
Speaker 4: you just do that? I, in the moment assessed that
Speaker 4: I would probably not get a very coach and answer
Speaker 4: or I try to interrogate someone in that moment.
Speaker 2: It's also just incredibly loud, like it's just hard to
Speaker 2: have a conversation. I did, though. So there was another
Speaker 2: interaction that I didn't tell you about yet. That was
Speaker 2: it was at a game and we were in the
Speaker 2: concession stand and we were standing in line.
Speaker 3: To get food.
Speaker 2: Of course, everywhere you're at in Hinsfield, there are video
Speaker 2: cameras so you can continue to watch the game no
Speaker 2: matter where you are, and so while we were standing
Speaker 2: there in line, we watched that the quarterback Ben Roethlisberger
Speaker 2: kind of threw the ball away into the crowd, and
Speaker 2: my informant, Kevin, who was with me, you know, he
Speaker 2: was like, oh damn it, you know, yelling basically at
Speaker 2: the quarterback for screwing up. And the gentleman in front
Speaker 2: of us turned around and said, do you not know
Speaker 2: what it's like to throw a football in freezing weather
Speaker 2: really kind of defending the quarterback in that moment, and
Speaker 2: that was a really kind of clarifying like interaction that
Speaker 2: I observed.
Speaker 1: How did it resolve itself?
Speaker 2: There was some grumbling under the breath, I believe. My
Speaker 2: informant like, how dare you right? And this really points
Speaker 2: to I think that the idea that the quarterback can
Speaker 2: themselves become like a sacred symbol that is seen as
Speaker 2: unimpeachable in a way.
Speaker 3: But of course we.
Speaker 2: Also like to yell at them when they screw up,
Speaker 2: so it's a little bit of a blurry blurry line.
Speaker 1: How did the Steeler fans respond to you with your
Speaker 1: notebook and your martian like detachment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were welcoming. They poured me a shot when
Speaker 2: we were doing rounds. They invited me to hang out
Speaker 2: and eat with them at the tailgate party ahead of time.
Speaker 2: There's an environment of festiveness, of camaraderie, right of connection.
Speaker 1: But you're part of the tribe.
Speaker 2: Yeah sure, sure, yeah, you're a part of group. And
Speaker 2: my informant, he gave me a terrible tall towel before
Speaker 2: we went. He's like, you have to have something. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, they were friendly. They wanted to chat about.
Speaker 2: You know, I would sometimes ask them like, well, what
Speaker 2: do you mean by fairweather fan, and like trying to
Speaker 2: get something to unpack things that they they also take
Speaker 2: for granted, right, And that can be a little bit
Speaker 2: uncomfortable when you're doing this type of research because people
Speaker 2: are like duh, Like obviously everybody else.
Speaker 1: They didn't find they didn't find it unsettling to be studied.
Speaker 2: Maybe they didn't let on, thankfully, but no, they didn't
Speaker 2: really didn't.
Speaker 1: So when do you make the connection to religion?
Speaker 2: That was kind of early on, going back to Durkheim's
Speaker 2: work where he's trying to connect this idea of questioning
Speaker 2: what are the bounds of religion per se? And so
Speaker 2: I was playing with this idea of the sacred in
Speaker 2: the profane in the context of the Terrible Tell, thinking
Speaker 2: about how objects can potentially start out mundane and then
Speaker 2: transition to become.
Speaker 3: These sacred objects.
Speaker 2: And I mean just the fervor that I saw, I mean,
Speaker 2: part of it is a pretty personal reason, which was
Speaker 2: at the time before I did this research, I was
Speaker 2: actually very religious myself, and so I could see similar
Speaker 2: dynamics in some of the church services I had attended
Speaker 2: and the earnestness, the congregation coming together, the singing, the
Speaker 2: visceral emotion responses that I was seeing.
Speaker 1: After a quick break, I asked Marcy the difference between
Speaker 1: religion and fandom, because in Pittsburgh it could be hard
Speaker 1: to tell. Are back with sociologist Marcy Cottingham talking about
Speaker 1: the overlap between religion and fandom.
Speaker 2: We have the example of Steelers fans using symbols from
Speaker 2: the Steelers in things like funerals and weddings. There are
Speaker 2: some examples of people actually having weddings at Hinesfield on
Speaker 2: the turf right, having terrible towels that are especially made
Speaker 2: and monogrammed with the bride and groom's name that are
Speaker 2: handed out at the wedding. It can be black and gold,
Speaker 2: BoA's and Tiara's.
Speaker 1: Right, all we've got funerals.
Speaker 3: Funerals.
Speaker 2: We had the example of one of the mayors of
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh that died and that was a very Steeler's infused
Speaker 2: funeral process with the whole city involved. But then there
Speaker 2: are other examples of fans, some of whom hadn't even
Speaker 2: been at a game before, who lived elsewhere, who were
Speaker 2: big steel fans. Their widow brought their ashes to Hinsfield
Speaker 2: to scatter kind of the dying wish of a fan.
Speaker 1: Scatter the ashes on Hinsfield.
Speaker 2: I don't know if they actually scattered, but the urn
Speaker 2: was there and the reporter wanted to interview this person,
Speaker 2: and then you just have the memorabilia being incorporated into
Speaker 2: the funeral itself.
Speaker 1: So what does Steeler's fandom lack that a religion has.
Speaker 1: Why is it only a quasi religion?
Speaker 2: So the extent to which there is a strict set
Speaker 2: of beliefs that have to be affirmed is not really there.
Speaker 3: Right, I was able to just go to all these things.
Speaker 2: There wasn't necessarily a sense that I had to, you know,
Speaker 2: agree to any set of dogma right, or affirm anything
Speaker 2: in particular.
Speaker 1: It was well I had had you had to signal
Speaker 1: that you So if I walk into a Catholic church,
Speaker 1: no one asked if I'm Catholic, you can walk. You
Speaker 1: could do that. You could do this in a Catholic
Speaker 1: church and probably and no one would require you to
Speaker 1: wear a cross or signal in any way. So you
Speaker 1: would need in a way the bar you had to
Speaker 1: jump over to be included with in the Steelers religion
Speaker 1: was higher than the bar that the Catholic Church would
Speaker 1: put up.
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe.
Speaker 2: I mean when when I was doing this research, my
Speaker 2: committee was like, wonder, I had thought about wearing an
Speaker 2: opposing team's jersey to some of these events just to
Speaker 2: see the reaction I get.
Speaker 3: And my committee was worried about my safety.
Speaker 1: So if I wore a yamaka to a Catholic church,
Speaker 1: I would not probably be assaulted. It's interesting, So I'm
Speaker 1: really going to push on this, like what does it
Speaker 1: lack that to qualify as a religion.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not considered exempt by the government, right,
Speaker 2: so it doesn't have that status of being a religion
Speaker 2: in that sense, but that official label might be all
Speaker 2: that really separates it.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. What are people getting out of it?
Speaker 2: What I saw people getting was I think a very
Speaker 2: clear sense of community and belonging. That's meaningful that you know,
Speaker 2: developed this community, but it doesn't necessarily have that antagonistic
Speaker 2: or you know, potentially fraught elements.
Speaker 1: And also mainly everybody in the stadiums for the same
Speaker 1: team for the most part of the most part, what
Speaker 1: kind of response did you get to from your academic colleagues.
Speaker 2: There's a recent book that's out that's on college football
Speaker 2: and all of the debates about you know, student athletes
Speaker 2: and needing to be protected and to what extent do
Speaker 2: they have certain.
Speaker 3: Rights as workers.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: But it's unfortunately, I think, still seen as somewhat frivolous
Speaker 2: or silly among you know, serious academics.
Speaker 1: Ninety seven of the one hundred most watched TV shows
Speaker 1: last year in the United States were football games, right.
Speaker 1: It is. It is the thing that everybody is paying
Speaker 1: attention to. If there's anything everybody is paying attention to,
Speaker 1: it's kind of odd that the people who are supposed
Speaker 1: to be studying people regarded as frivolous.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think most of the folks that have
Speaker 2: cited my work tend to be in like sports marketing
Speaker 2: or kind of a business angle to it, so you
Speaker 2: will see that engagement you know, organization studies folks, but
Speaker 2: sociologists per se, I don't think have spent nearly enough
Speaker 2: attention or interest on sports fandom as something to continue.
Speaker 3: To be curious about. Right.
Speaker 2: It's it's something that we tend to think, oh, well,
Speaker 2: they're fanatics, that explains it, right, But I find that unsatisfying.
Speaker 1: If I give you a giant budget, Like Michael, No,
Speaker 1: I want you to know. I'm just curious. So I
Speaker 1: gave you a giant people going to hear this. This
Speaker 1: may be you may get a check. So the question is,
Speaker 1: you've got a giant budget, what would you do with it?
Speaker 1: If the NFL said, here's a we want to know
Speaker 1: about ourselves.
Speaker 3: Oh oh the NFL.
Speaker 1: No, no, never mind, some curious billionaire says, you do what
Speaker 1: you want with this check is virtually a blank check. Well,
Speaker 1: and you wanted to go do some more sociological studies,
Speaker 1: that isn't just you sitting in the stands, but a
Speaker 1: little more rigorous, like a little more sure, what would
Speaker 1: you do?
Speaker 2: I mean the questions that I would have now would
Speaker 2: be what are ways that we can make this sport safer.
Speaker 1: Or well, yes there are people working on.
Speaker 2: That, but also how those changes would potentially impact random Right.
Speaker 1: They're always changing the rules, So the rule changes aren't
Speaker 1: a problem the problem. But you may have just put
Speaker 1: your finger on something Removing the violence might be a problem.
Speaker 1: That the violence may be part of what's bringing people together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we have other sports where.
Speaker 1: They're not as violent, aren't as popular. That's true, not
Speaker 1: even close.
Speaker 2: But maybe that might be a product of the historical
Speaker 2: times we're in. Maybe maybe things might shift, you know,
Speaker 2: it's you know, we're saturated with violence in many ways
Speaker 2: every day, and so maybe they're as an opportunity to
Speaker 2: think through other ways of spectating competition that are not
Speaker 2: rooted in that.
Speaker 1: Do you have any interest in the effect gambling will
Speaker 1: have on fan culture.
Speaker 2: I haven't researched it to know all the ins and outs.
Speaker 2: My sense is that it could be potentially, you know,
Speaker 2: trying to capitalize on some of these emotions, but in
Speaker 2: a way that would probably really distort it, right, because
Speaker 2: the gambling component is you're getting that high from the gamble,
Speaker 2: and the sports is kind of secondary.
Speaker 1: That it might undermine the social purpose of fandom, right, right.
Speaker 2: That it would undermine the kind of you know, pure
Speaker 2: devotion to your team. So to what extent those different
Speaker 2: practices have changed and maybe changed fandom or generally so
Speaker 2: that people aren't as attached to a particular team.
Speaker 1: So thank you. This is really helpful and totally fun.
Speaker 3: My pleasure. Bye bye, Thanks so much.
Speaker 1: Marcie Cutting him as an associate professor of sociology at
Speaker 1: Kenyon College, and author of the book Practical Feelings. Against
Speaker 1: the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael Lewis
Speaker 1: and produced by Lydia gen Kott, Catherine Gerardeau and Ariella Markowitz.
Speaker 1: Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is Sarah Bruguier.
Speaker 1: Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. To
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