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Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Michael Lewis, and this is against the rules.

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Speaker 1: This season of the podcast is all about the rise

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Speaker 1: of sports gambling in the United States, but none of

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Speaker 1: it would be possible if we didn't have such seriously

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Speaker 1: emotional fans, in particular football fans, which leads us today

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Speaker 1: to the Pittsburgh Steelers. Steeler Nation is so deep and

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Speaker 1: so wide that fans can pick from any number of

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Speaker 1: fight songs, from a Poka themed one by Jimmy Pohl,

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Speaker 1: first Steeler, to a hometown tribute by Pittsburgh native Whiz Khalifa,

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Speaker 1: and of course they are countless other songs as well.

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Speaker 1: The Steelers have been around and owned by the same

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Speaker 1: family since nineteen thirty three, where their fans go other

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Speaker 1: franchises follow. In the nineteen seventies, Steeler Nation starts to

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Speaker 1: wave golden rally towels in the air. They call them

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Speaker 1: terrible towels. Soon every team has its own towel, but

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Speaker 1: those other towels, They're not terrible. It's just not the same.

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Speaker 1: Pittsburgh is the crucible of modern fandom. So that's why

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Speaker 1: I had to call up Marcy Cottingham. She's an associate

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Speaker 1: professor of sociology at Kenyon College in Ohio, but she

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Speaker 1: comes from Pittsburgh and from this gravitational center of football.

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Speaker 1: She studies the feelings and rituals of fans.

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Speaker 2: I kind of just grew up surrounded by sports fandom.

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Speaker 2: My father was a very big Steelers fan. We would

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Speaker 2: listen to Myron Cope. I don't know if you know

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Speaker 2: who that is, but we would listen to Myron Cope

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Speaker 2: on the radio driving home from church every Sunday. And

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Speaker 2: I moved away for five years when I got my

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Speaker 2: undergrad degree, and that I moved back.

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Speaker 3: To get my master's degree.

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Speaker 2: And it was in that transition back that it really

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Speaker 2: became odd to me, Like I suddenly started to see

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Speaker 2: familiar things as strange.

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Speaker 1: What was it that, can you remember what like caught

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Speaker 1: your eye? It's like being in a Martian in your

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Speaker 1: own life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, the first thing was seeing that every door in

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Speaker 2: the frozen food aisle section of my grocery store had

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Speaker 2: a terrible towel tucked into the handle during one of

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Speaker 2: the seasons. And I remember just being really struck by

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Speaker 2: the pervasiveness of this object throughout the city. As I

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Speaker 2: was kind of acclimating to life there.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think you never saw it before.

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Speaker 2: In sociology, we have this idea of we kind of

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Speaker 2: internalize and are socialized to really take for granted what

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Speaker 2: we see early on. Right, it just becomes natural to us.

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Speaker 2: It's just the things are.

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Speaker 1: And you explain what the Terrible towel is.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember the exact dimensions, but it's basically the

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Speaker 2: size of a hand towel.

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Speaker 3: It is kind of a bright.

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Speaker 2: Yellow gold color with black lettering on it that described

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Speaker 2: as the Terrible Towel. It was created by Myron Cope Hartly,

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Speaker 2: I believe to kind of fundraise money.

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Speaker 1: So I said to them, I'm not a gimmick guy.

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Speaker 1: I've never been a gimmick guy. And they said to me,

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Speaker 1: your contract comes up for renewal in a.

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Speaker 4: Few months, and I said, well, let me see if

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Speaker 4: I can think of a gimmick.

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Speaker 2: So, and initially it was supposed to be used for

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Speaker 2: like drying off seats at the stadium, but it has

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Speaker 2: since its inception kind of morphed into being this symbol

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Speaker 2: that has waived during important events during the kind of

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Speaker 2: game and fans use it as decoration or grocery stores

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Speaker 2: use it as decoration, as I noted, And so it's

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Speaker 2: this kind of ubiquitous symbol of stealer's fandom.

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Speaker 1: And if you actually someone would actually use it to

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Speaker 1: clean the floor or or put their feet on it

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Speaker 1: in the stadium, how would people respond?

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Speaker 2: Oh, people would go crazy, right, it would be sacrilegious.

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Speaker 2: It would be violating this sacred symbol.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen that happen?

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Speaker 3: I have read about.

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Speaker 2: It though, in a couple of news articles about opposing teams,

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Speaker 2: but where opposing teams will use the terrible towel, say

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Speaker 2: after they get a touchdown, right, and they kind of

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Speaker 2: use it to step on or gloat or you know,

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Speaker 2: a lead up to a pregame trash talk, right, where

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Speaker 2: the terrible towel is used and abused.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So it is a sacred object and they and the

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Speaker 1: other team knows it.

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Speaker 2: I mean that that's kind of how I frame it,

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Speaker 2: because of the visceral emotional reaction engenders.

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Speaker 1: Right, Like I never studied sociology, I forgive you that.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 1: I you know, I've picked up from time to time

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Speaker 1: just as an amateur sociology books and they're riveting and

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Speaker 1: it makes me I know, it's a hole in my education.

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Speaker 1: But can you just explain the distinction between the sacred

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Speaker 1: and the prof of the sacred in the mundane.

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Speaker 2: So this distinction sociologically goes back to the work of

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Speaker 2: Emil dirk Him. So he's a French philosopher, French social theorist,

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Speaker 2: kind of considered the founder, one of the founders of sociology,

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Speaker 2: and he makes that distinction between the sacred and the mundane,

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Speaker 2: where the mundane is something that is every day we

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Speaker 2: use it. It has its utilitarian purpose is front and center.

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Speaker 2: To distinguish it from the sacred. We have these objects

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Speaker 2: that are kind of set apart. They're not utilitarian, they

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Speaker 2: have these special roles that they're supposed to play in

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Speaker 2: our lives. Dirkheim was one of the first to really

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Speaker 2: use this kind of differentiation to talk about society as

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Speaker 2: a whole, as the kind of social collective taking on

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Speaker 2: these sacred qualities through rituals.

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Speaker 1: Have you yourself ever been emotionally attached to a team, Well,

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Speaker 1: I am.

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Speaker 2: To Stealers at this point. It's been such a part

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Speaker 2: of my career and my life. I do have like,

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Speaker 2: whenever I see news about something that's about the Stealers,

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Speaker 2: you know I'm actually going to be picking up my

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Speaker 2: dad from the airport today, and I know he's going

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Speaker 2: to have his Steeler socks on or whatever. Right, and

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Speaker 2: so it's a part of my blood in a way

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Speaker 2: I can't really get away from it. I will say

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Speaker 2: think that there's something about the working class ethos of

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Speaker 2: Steeler's fandom in particular, that I also find encouraging and

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Speaker 2: interesting to reflect on.

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Speaker 1: When you walked into the Steelers Stadium and started to

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Speaker 1: just take notes, like what's the purpose of this research?

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Speaker 2: The purpose is to try to see and understand ourselves differently. Right.

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Speaker 2: I use often in my intro classes the analogy of

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Speaker 2: kind of being an alien, where we try to bracket

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Speaker 2: out all of our preconceptions and assumptions when we're viewing

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Speaker 2: the social world. If I chose something that was somewhat

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Speaker 2: personal to me, right, I grew up kind of in

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Speaker 2: the area where I was surrounded by it. And so

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Speaker 2: it's not just about understanding a group that's out there,

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Speaker 2: but also understanding so more broadly, and the importance of

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Speaker 2: sport in society, which historically I think has been a

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Speaker 2: little bit underappreciated.

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Speaker 1: When you go to observe the Steelers. Do you feel

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Speaker 1: like you're the first sociologist ever to have done so.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of folks that have done work on this,

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Speaker 2: But what I have found when I was starting out

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Speaker 2: was that a lot of it took a very kind

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Speaker 2: of negative view of fandom and was trying to explain

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Speaker 2: violence and destruction and hooliganism that was associated with fandom

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Speaker 2: prior to this research, and it didn't necessarily cast fans

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Speaker 2: in a very positive light. It suggested that they were

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Speaker 2: kind of fanatical, right, as the term suggests that they're

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Speaker 2: kind of overcome by their emotions. They can't be trusted,

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Speaker 2: they're totally irrational, right. What I wanted to do was

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Speaker 2: to not dismiss their emotions as pointless or as problematic,

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Speaker 2: but instead to really understand how they could provide a

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Speaker 2: sense of belonging and meaning to fans.

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Speaker 1: Still emotional as opposed to kind of conventionally rational the

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Speaker 1: behavior you're observing, I don't know, it's still difficult to explain.

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Speaker 2: Sure, Sure, And a lot of my work I try

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Speaker 2: to trouble that neat distinction that says cognition and emotion

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Speaker 2: are totally separate from each other. These symbols that sports

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Speaker 2: fans use can be transferable. They can be ways of

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Speaker 2: connecting with neighbors or connecting with family members, and so

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Speaker 2: while they're not rational in a strict way, I don't

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Speaker 2: think they're necessarily irrational in a strict way. The common

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Speaker 2: caricature is that they are swept up in their emotions

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Speaker 2: and that there's no rationality, and the cathartic view is

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Speaker 2: basically that, because you know, contemporary modern life requires us

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Speaker 2: to exert a degree of restraint over our presentations to

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Speaker 2: other people, including our emotional expressions, that we need certain

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Speaker 2: outlets or kind of benign valves to release our pent

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Speaker 2: up emotions. And much of the work on sport tends

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Speaker 2: to think about sports as doing this, like it's just

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Speaker 2: this release valve that lets people express.

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Speaker 3: All of these pent up emotions.

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Speaker 2: And my work argues that we need to instead think

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Speaker 2: about emotions as something that's generated from our social interactions

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Speaker 2: with other people. And this means that it's through our presence,

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Speaker 2: our co presence with other people, our connections to them,

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Speaker 2: our use of symbols, those peak kind of ritual interactions

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Speaker 2: that we have that particular emotions are generated, Like the

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Speaker 2: excitement comes from that moment, not as something deep in

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Speaker 2: the psyche of fans that are walking around waiting for

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Speaker 2: a place.

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Speaker 3: To unleash it.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break. But when we

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Speaker 1: come back, how all this excitement translates to grown men

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Speaker 1: stripping to their underwear in the freezing Pittsburgh cold. I'm

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Speaker 1: back with Pittsburgh Steelers fan and scholar Marcy Cottingham. So

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Speaker 1: what did you do? Did you go for the whole season?

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Speaker 2: I went for tailgating and sports bars and then two

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Speaker 2: different games. And we hadn't initially thought we would be

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Speaker 2: able to go to a game, but it turned out

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Speaker 2: that when we were at a sports bar, believe it

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Speaker 2: or not, a woman came up to us and gave

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Speaker 2: us tickets, so we were able to actually go to Hinesfield,

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Speaker 2: which ended up being pretty critical.

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Speaker 1: Why would it have been so difficult to go to

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Speaker 1: a game?

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Speaker 2: Well, the waiting list for getting tickets, the price. I

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Speaker 2: was a very poor grad student. Oh, I see, they're

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Speaker 2: in high demand, as you can imagine.

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Speaker 1: And you so described me like a couple of things

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Speaker 1: you saw when you're in your martian mode that you

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Speaker 1: that you thought worth noting.

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Speaker 2: There were two in particular that still really stand out

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Speaker 2: to me just kind of observing the interactions of fans

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Speaker 2: in the stadium. I saw the interactions that my informant,

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Speaker 2: who I call Kevin, had with people that were absolute strangers,

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Speaker 2: and I was struck by the amount of just camaraderie

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Speaker 2: and connection that he was able to have with these

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Speaker 2: people that he had never met before. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: there was one really spectacular play I think it was

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Speaker 2: in the fourth quarter of one of the games that

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Speaker 2: we saw, and there were two gentlemen in front of us,

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Speaker 2: and the one began to strip off his clothing. So

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Speaker 2: it was in December, very cold, he had many layers on,

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Speaker 2: but he literally peeled off his layers to stand there

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Speaker 2: bare chested, screaming that, you know, obviously out of exuberance

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Speaker 2: that the Steelers had done so well. And then immediately

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Speaker 2: after that, another great play happened and his friend, who

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Speaker 2: was next to him, also started to peel off his labors,

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Speaker 2: stripped down and then kind of clasp hands with his

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Speaker 2: friend and scream in each other's faces, and it was

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Speaker 2: really wild to watch, and then they proceeded to high five.

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Speaker 2: So that sense of like connection with each other that

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Speaker 2: really emerged during that peak emotional experience was fascinating to me.

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Speaker 1: And nobody around them would have thought this behavior strange.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely not.

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Speaker 4: No, did you lean in and say, sir, why did

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Speaker 4: you just do that? I, in the moment assessed that

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Speaker 4: I would probably not get a very coach and answer

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Speaker 4: or I try to interrogate someone in that moment.

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Speaker 2: It's also just incredibly loud, like it's just hard to

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Speaker 2: have a conversation. I did, though. So there was another

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Speaker 2: interaction that I didn't tell you about yet. That was

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Speaker 2: it was at a game and we were in the

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Speaker 2: concession stand and we were standing in line.

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Speaker 3: To get food.

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Speaker 2: Of course, everywhere you're at in Hinsfield, there are video

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Speaker 2: cameras so you can continue to watch the game no

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Speaker 2: matter where you are, and so while we were standing

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Speaker 2: there in line, we watched that the quarterback Ben Roethlisberger

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Speaker 2: kind of threw the ball away into the crowd, and

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Speaker 2: my informant, Kevin, who was with me, you know, he

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Speaker 2: was like, oh damn it, you know, yelling basically at

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Speaker 2: the quarterback for screwing up. And the gentleman in front

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Speaker 2: of us turned around and said, do you not know

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Speaker 2: what it's like to throw a football in freezing weather

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Speaker 2: really kind of defending the quarterback in that moment, and

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Speaker 2: that was a really kind of clarifying like interaction that

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Speaker 2: I observed.

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Speaker 1: How did it resolve itself?

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Speaker 2: There was some grumbling under the breath, I believe. My

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Speaker 2: informant like, how dare you right? And this really points

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Speaker 2: to I think that the idea that the quarterback can

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Speaker 2: themselves become like a sacred symbol that is seen as

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Speaker 2: unimpeachable in a way.

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Speaker 3: But of course we.

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Speaker 2: Also like to yell at them when they screw up,

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Speaker 2: so it's a little bit of a blurry blurry line.

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Speaker 1: How did the Steeler fans respond to you with your

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Speaker 1: notebook and your martian like detachment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they were welcoming. They poured me a shot when

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Speaker 2: we were doing rounds. They invited me to hang out

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Speaker 2: and eat with them at the tailgate party ahead of time.

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Speaker 2: There's an environment of festiveness, of camaraderie, right of connection.

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Speaker 1: But you're part of the tribe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah sure, sure, yeah, you're a part of group. And

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Speaker 2: my informant, he gave me a terrible tall towel before

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Speaker 2: we went. He's like, you have to have something. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, they were friendly. They wanted to chat about.

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Speaker 2: You know, I would sometimes ask them like, well, what

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Speaker 2: do you mean by fairweather fan, and like trying to

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Speaker 2: get something to unpack things that they they also take

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Speaker 2: for granted, right, And that can be a little bit

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable when you're doing this type of research because people

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Speaker 2: are like duh, Like obviously everybody else.

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Speaker 1: They didn't find they didn't find it unsettling to be studied.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they didn't let on, thankfully, but no, they didn't

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Speaker 2: really didn't.

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Speaker 1: So when do you make the connection to religion?

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Speaker 2: That was kind of early on, going back to Durkheim's

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Speaker 2: work where he's trying to connect this idea of questioning

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Speaker 2: what are the bounds of religion per se? And so

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Speaker 2: I was playing with this idea of the sacred in

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Speaker 2: the profane in the context of the Terrible Tell, thinking

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Speaker 2: about how objects can potentially start out mundane and then

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Speaker 2: transition to become.

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Speaker 3: These sacred objects.

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Speaker 2: And I mean just the fervor that I saw, I mean,

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Speaker 2: part of it is a pretty personal reason, which was

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Speaker 2: at the time before I did this research, I was

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Speaker 2: actually very religious myself, and so I could see similar

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Speaker 2: dynamics in some of the church services I had attended

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Speaker 2: and the earnestness, the congregation coming together, the singing, the

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Speaker 2: visceral emotion responses that I was seeing.

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Speaker 1: After a quick break, I asked Marcy the difference between

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Speaker 1: religion and fandom, because in Pittsburgh it could be hard

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Speaker 1: to tell. Are back with sociologist Marcy Cottingham talking about

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Speaker 1: the overlap between religion and fandom.

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Speaker 2: We have the example of Steelers fans using symbols from

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Speaker 2: the Steelers in things like funerals and weddings. There are

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Speaker 2: some examples of people actually having weddings at Hinesfield on

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Speaker 2: the turf right, having terrible towels that are especially made

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Speaker 2: and monogrammed with the bride and groom's name that are

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Speaker 2: handed out at the wedding. It can be black and gold,

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Speaker 2: BoA's and Tiara's.

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Speaker 1: Right, all we've got funerals.

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Speaker 3: Funerals.

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Speaker 2: We had the example of one of the mayors of

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Speaker 2: Pittsburgh that died and that was a very Steeler's infused

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Speaker 2: funeral process with the whole city involved. But then there

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Speaker 2: are other examples of fans, some of whom hadn't even

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Speaker 2: been at a game before, who lived elsewhere, who were

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Speaker 2: big steel fans. Their widow brought their ashes to Hinsfield

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Speaker 2: to scatter kind of the dying wish of a fan.

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Speaker 1: Scatter the ashes on Hinsfield.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if they actually scattered, but the urn

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Speaker 2: was there and the reporter wanted to interview this person,

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Speaker 2: and then you just have the memorabilia being incorporated into

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Speaker 2: the funeral itself.

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Speaker 1: So what does Steeler's fandom lack that a religion has.

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Speaker 1: Why is it only a quasi religion?

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Speaker 2: So the extent to which there is a strict set

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Speaker 2: of beliefs that have to be affirmed is not really there.

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Speaker 3: Right, I was able to just go to all these things.

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Speaker 2: There wasn't necessarily a sense that I had to, you know,

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Speaker 2: agree to any set of dogma right, or affirm anything

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Speaker 2: in particular.

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Speaker 1: It was well I had had you had to signal

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Speaker 1: that you So if I walk into a Catholic church,

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Speaker 1: no one asked if I'm Catholic, you can walk. You

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Speaker 1: could do that. You could do this in a Catholic

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Speaker 1: church and probably and no one would require you to

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Speaker 1: wear a cross or signal in any way. So you

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Speaker 1: would need in a way the bar you had to

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Speaker 1: jump over to be included with in the Steelers religion

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Speaker 1: was higher than the bar that the Catholic Church would

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Speaker 1: put up.

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Speaker 3: Maybe maybe.

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Speaker 2: I mean when when I was doing this research, my

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Speaker 2: committee was like, wonder, I had thought about wearing an

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Speaker 2: opposing team's jersey to some of these events just to

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Speaker 2: see the reaction I get.

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Speaker 3: And my committee was worried about my safety.

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Speaker 1: So if I wore a yamaka to a Catholic church,

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Speaker 1: I would not probably be assaulted. It's interesting, So I'm

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Speaker 1: really going to push on this, like what does it

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Speaker 1: lack that to qualify as a religion.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's not considered exempt by the government, right,

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Speaker 2: so it doesn't have that status of being a religion

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Speaker 2: in that sense, but that official label might be all

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Speaker 2: that really separates it.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting. What are people getting out of it?

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Speaker 2: What I saw people getting was I think a very

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Speaker 2: clear sense of community and belonging. That's meaningful that you know,

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Speaker 2: developed this community, but it doesn't necessarily have that antagonistic

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Speaker 2: or you know, potentially fraught elements.

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Speaker 1: And also mainly everybody in the stadiums for the same

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Speaker 1: team for the most part of the most part, what

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Speaker 1: kind of response did you get to from your academic colleagues.

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Speaker 2: There's a recent book that's out that's on college football

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Speaker 2: and all of the debates about you know, student athletes

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Speaker 2: and needing to be protected and to what extent do

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Speaker 2: they have certain.

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Speaker 3: Rights as workers.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: But it's unfortunately, I think, still seen as somewhat frivolous

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Speaker 2: or silly among you know, serious academics.

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Speaker 1: Ninety seven of the one hundred most watched TV shows

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Speaker 1: last year in the United States were football games, right.

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Speaker 1: It is. It is the thing that everybody is paying

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Speaker 1: attention to. If there's anything everybody is paying attention to,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of odd that the people who are supposed

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Speaker 1: to be studying people regarded as frivolous.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think most of the folks that have

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Speaker 2: cited my work tend to be in like sports marketing

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Speaker 2: or kind of a business angle to it, so you

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Speaker 2: will see that engagement you know, organization studies folks, but

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Speaker 2: sociologists per se, I don't think have spent nearly enough

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Speaker 2: attention or interest on sports fandom as something to continue.

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Speaker 3: To be curious about. Right.

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Speaker 2: It's it's something that we tend to think, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: they're fanatics, that explains it, right, But I find that unsatisfying.

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Speaker 1: If I give you a giant budget, Like Michael, No,

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Speaker 1: I want you to know. I'm just curious. So I

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Speaker 1: gave you a giant people going to hear this. This

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Speaker 1: may be you may get a check. So the question is,

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Speaker 1: you've got a giant budget, what would you do with it?

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Speaker 1: If the NFL said, here's a we want to know

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Speaker 1: about ourselves.

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Speaker 3: Oh oh the NFL.

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Speaker 1: No, no, never mind, some curious billionaire says, you do what

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Speaker 1: you want with this check is virtually a blank check. Well,

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Speaker 1: and you wanted to go do some more sociological studies,

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Speaker 1: that isn't just you sitting in the stands, but a

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Speaker 1: little more rigorous, like a little more sure, what would

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Speaker 1: you do?

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Speaker 2: I mean the questions that I would have now would

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Speaker 2: be what are ways that we can make this sport safer.

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Speaker 1: Or well, yes there are people working on.

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Speaker 2: That, but also how those changes would potentially impact random Right.

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Speaker 1: They're always changing the rules, So the rule changes aren't

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Speaker 1: a problem the problem. But you may have just put

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Speaker 1: your finger on something Removing the violence might be a problem.

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Speaker 1: That the violence may be part of what's bringing people together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we have other sports where.

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Speaker 1: They're not as violent, aren't as popular. That's true, not

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Speaker 1: even close.

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Speaker 2: But maybe that might be a product of the historical

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Speaker 2: times we're in. Maybe maybe things might shift, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's you know, we're saturated with violence in many ways

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Speaker 2: every day, and so maybe they're as an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: think through other ways of spectating competition that are not

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Speaker 2: rooted in that.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any interest in the effect gambling will

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Speaker 1: have on fan culture.

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Speaker 2: I haven't researched it to know all the ins and outs.

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Speaker 2: My sense is that it could be potentially, you know,

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Speaker 2: trying to capitalize on some of these emotions, but in

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Speaker 2: a way that would probably really distort it, right, because

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Speaker 2: the gambling component is you're getting that high from the gamble,

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Speaker 2: and the sports is kind of secondary.

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Speaker 1: That it might undermine the social purpose of fandom, right, right.

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Speaker 2: That it would undermine the kind of you know, pure

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Speaker 2: devotion to your team. So to what extent those different

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Speaker 2: practices have changed and maybe changed fandom or generally so

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Speaker 2: that people aren't as attached to a particular team.

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Speaker 1: So thank you. This is really helpful and totally fun.

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Speaker 3: My pleasure. Bye bye, Thanks so much.

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Speaker 1: Marcie Cutting him as an associate professor of sociology at

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Speaker 1: Kenyon College, and author of the book Practical Feelings. Against

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Speaker 1: the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael Lewis

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00:23:19,596 --> 00:23:24,076
Speaker 1: and produced by Lydia gen Kott, Catherine Gerardeau and Ariella Markowitz.

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00:23:24,996 --> 00:23:29,036
Speaker 1: Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is Sarah Bruguier.

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Speaker 1: Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. To

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Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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