Speaker 1: Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversial list. I'm
Speaker 1: Britney Spanis and.
Speaker 2: I'm Rob Sheffield and we're here to shed light on
Speaker 2: the greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them
Speaker 2: so great.
Speaker 1: And today we are going to talk about Maps by
Speaker 1: the Yeah Yeah Yeahs. That song originally was on It
Speaker 1: did make the two thousand and four list, came out
Speaker 1: a year before the two thousand and four list, and
Speaker 1: then it was added to the twenty ten update and
Speaker 1: it was at number three eighty six on the twenty
Speaker 1: ten update and came in at number one oh one
Speaker 1: on the new list, So it jumped up a bunch.
Speaker 1: I absolutely love this song. This was on my ballot
Speaker 1: actually for greatest Songs.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was way up in my bud. It's yeah,
Speaker 2: absolutely one of the great iconic rock and roll love
Speaker 2: songs of all the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like this was a song that was very
Speaker 1: very much in heavy rotation and Fuse and MTV two
Speaker 1: at a very formative time for me. So it was
Speaker 1: constantly watching Karen Oh kind of do the mic kind
Speaker 1: of rotating thing on the video, which is one of
Speaker 1: my favorite music videos of all time.
Speaker 2: It's so awesome. When did you hear it from the
Speaker 2: first time?
Speaker 1: Probably the year came out, so in two thousand and three,
Speaker 1: and I feel like, yeah, it was the first time
Speaker 1: I had really heard any music from that kind of
Speaker 1: New York post punk revival scene. But the Ias were
Speaker 1: my first kind of introduction. This was like an era
Speaker 1: when I started to explore a lot more of rock
Speaker 1: music that was going on at the time, and a
Speaker 1: great time for rock music in that year specifically, amazing time.
Speaker 2: That was one of the great eras for rock music.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what do you remember of hearing the Ias
Speaker 1: for the first time? You were living in New York
Speaker 1: already by now, Yes.
Speaker 2: They were the greatest band in town. Really exciting time
Speaker 2: to be in New York and be a fan of
Speaker 2: punk rock. There wasn't a time where it was a
Speaker 2: lot of excitement on New York bands, specifically because the
Speaker 2: nineties were a time when rock bands were just exploding
Speaker 2: all over the world. There were so many great innovative
Speaker 2: and experimental bands all over the world with such different approaches,
Speaker 2: and New York was really kind of lagging behind at
Speaker 2: that time. It was really wild to have this moment
Speaker 2: in the early two thousands where suddenly there's all this
Speaker 2: creative blowing up in New York that completely unlike anything
Speaker 2: that anybody had seen in yours.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what did you think when you first heard Maps,
Speaker 1: especially in contrast to the other music that they had
Speaker 1: put out two EP's right before Fever to.
Speaker 2: Tell yeah yeah? It was so beyond what anybody thought
Speaker 2: the Aeis could do. And I was the world's biggest
Speaker 2: yeah yeah yeas fan at that time. In Maps was
Speaker 2: way beyond what anybody thought that they were capable of.
Speaker 2: It was such an exciting time in general. It was
Speaker 2: the meet Me in the Bathroom era. The story at
Speaker 2: this moment told so brilliantly in Lizzie Goodman's book In
Speaker 2: the Bathroom, which is one of the great rock books
Speaker 2: of the century. But there was this exciting punk rock
Speaker 2: scene in New York at the time. The Strokes had
Speaker 2: such a huge role in instigating it. And there was
Speaker 2: bands like Interpol who are very like post punk, and
Speaker 2: RD and Detached, and then there were the a Yeah Yeahs,
Speaker 2: who were just very punk rock in your face, very already,
Speaker 2: very gothy, and very excitement oriented. In a way that
Speaker 2: was really new and exciting. Kareno always said that when
Speaker 2: she was a kid going to rock shows in New
Speaker 2: York and people would always sit on the floor and
Speaker 2: just you know, just kind of sit on the floor,
Speaker 2: zone out, listen, and she said that was my pet
Speaker 2: peep people sitting on the floor. She said, we wanted
Speaker 2: to be a band where nobody would be able to
Speaker 2: sit on the floor. It'd be a really like disco
Speaker 2: approach to punk rock in many ways, just everybody up,
Speaker 2: everybody into it, very excitement oriented.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Karen and Brian met first at Oberlin College
Speaker 1: and then Karen transferred to NYU and she met Nick
Speaker 1: and it was Karen and Nick were doing acoustic music,
Speaker 1: which I had not known until I read Meet Me
Speaker 1: in the Bathroom and kind of saw some of the
Speaker 1: clips from it in the documentary, And so they were
Speaker 1: an acoustic duo for a little bit and then decided
Speaker 1: to kind of go a little bit more of on
Speaker 1: punk and pay tribute to a lot of the bands
Speaker 1: that all three of them loved growing up and were
Speaker 1: huge fans of. And then they as were born, they
Speaker 1: were kind of it seemed like a lot of people
Speaker 1: in that scene immediately were taken by them in the
Speaker 1: same way that you were. They were already opening for
Speaker 1: The White Stripes and the Strokes and had so much
Speaker 1: buzz building around them even before they were signed to
Speaker 1: a major label and released Fever to Tell, which is
Speaker 1: one of one of the great albums, such a perfect.
Speaker 2: Album, perfect album, seeing yeah, yeah, Yes, for the first time.
Speaker 2: It was one of those life changing punk rock gigs
Speaker 2: where everybody in the room has a new favorite band,
Speaker 2: you know, just a few minutes into the showy, absolutely explosive,
Speaker 2: and it was funny because for them, they thought it
Speaker 2: was kind of a goof at first. You know, Nick
Speaker 2: and Karen were so serious about Unit Tard, which was
Speaker 2: their their goth folk acoustic duo where it was very serious,
Speaker 2: very long, slow, sad songs and just on a whim.
Speaker 2: One night, Karen said, you know, it'd be really fun
Speaker 2: to do a rock and roll band, and Nick just thought,
Speaker 2: that's really played out. Why would anybody want to do that.
Speaker 2: They came up with their name, their sound, their first song.
Speaker 2: In about ten minutes. They were just like goofing around
Speaker 2: and they came up with Bang, which is a phenomenal
Speaker 2: song about you know, just like punk rock, punk rock,
Speaker 2: people having sex, and it was a real party song.
Speaker 2: It was really dance floor song. It was a really
Speaker 2: garage rock song. That was the mode that they were
Speaker 2: working in so brilliantly. But Maps was a love song,
Speaker 2: power ballad in so many ways, and a soul song
Speaker 2: in so many ways.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what I always have really loved about Maps is
Speaker 1: it's there's a sparse neess to it, like it's really
Speaker 1: kind of you know, even just like that opening riff
Speaker 1: that's happening, and then the way the drums come in,
Speaker 1: like there is something that feels like it's as big
Speaker 1: as it is, Like there is like such a sparse
Speaker 1: ness to the way they attack it, whereas kind of
Speaker 1: that you listen to a lot of the other songs
Speaker 1: on Fever to Tell, and they're so just kind of
Speaker 1: like messy and that like disco punkness, but there is
Speaker 1: this kind of beautiful, kind of almost stripped downness in
Speaker 1: comparison to some of the other songs that they're known
Speaker 1: for and from that era. And I think that works
Speaker 1: so well for this type of love song because you
Speaker 1: can really hear kind of like the cracks and Karen's
Speaker 1: voice as you're saying wait on the chorus and kind
Speaker 1: of the minimalism of like the verses and stuff like,
Speaker 1: it's just such a perfect, perfect low love song.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's well. When Karen first started getting attention, people
Speaker 2: would talk about her in terms of, you know, the
Speaker 2: great goffy punk rock queens, you know, Susie Sue or
Speaker 2: Patti Smith or Debbie Harry or Kate Bush. But you
Speaker 2: know it was for her growing up. Sam Cook was
Speaker 2: her idol and you can hear a lot of that
Speaker 2: in Maps. She is singing from the heart in a
Speaker 2: way that people were not expecting from her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much soul in the vocal delivery. And
Speaker 1: I think again because the video was such like an
Speaker 1: important part to how I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: heard the song and kind of really fell in love
Speaker 1: with the band and with Karen as a front woman.
Speaker 1: Like the way that she delivers that song in the
Speaker 1: video is mesmerizing, like, and she's talked about it later
Speaker 1: on where it was so much because her boyfriend at
Speaker 1: the time, Agus Andrews of the band Liars, who was
Speaker 1: the inspiration for the song, showed up three hours late
Speaker 1: to go on tour, Like she was genuinely upset and
Speaker 1: really kind of you know, this was the guy who
Speaker 1: inspired the song that she was so excited about not
Speaker 1: showing up when he needed to show up. True bad
Speaker 1: boyfriend in kind of like just pop rock history kind
Speaker 1: of stuff, really affecting the way that she went into
Speaker 1: this performance and real tears that she's shedding in this
Speaker 1: high school auditorium gymnasium situation where she's performing with the band,
Speaker 1: and it's just like almost like for me, sort of
Speaker 1: like changes the adds so much more sadness to the
Speaker 1: song than when you actually just hear it without the video,
Speaker 1: Where you hear without the video, there's so much like
Speaker 1: kind of like hope with it, and then you see
Speaker 1: the video and it's like, oh, this is like kind
Speaker 1: of heartbreaking, and I think that's such a beautiful way of,
Speaker 1: you know, flipping the song on its head.
Speaker 2: The early two thousands were not a time when there
Speaker 2: were women rock stars in the same way that there
Speaker 2: were in the nineties. You know, the nineties was a
Speaker 2: time when there were so many iconic, messy, chaotic, aggressive,
Speaker 2: all sorts of different kinds of female rock stars and
Speaker 2: completely dried up in the late nineties early two thousands
Speaker 2: Karen was so she was out there by herself. It
Speaker 2: was such a different thing to hear on the radio.
Speaker 2: Definitely a different thing to see on MTV was to
Speaker 2: see this female rock queen.
Speaker 1: Yeah and I mean think one of the great rock
Speaker 1: vocalists of all time too, Like I mean just like
Speaker 1: an absolute powerhouse in that way.
Speaker 2: Incredible. Well, The Yeah Yeah Yeahs is a live band
Speaker 2: so phenomenal because three completely different kinds of musicians doing
Speaker 2: extremely individual stuff that somehow has this perfect combination. Brian
Speaker 2: Chase one of the all time great rock drummers. He's
Speaker 2: so loud on maps, He's got this distinctive sound. When
Speaker 2: people imitate the song, which they do a lot, which
Speaker 2: they will discuss, they always rip off Brian's drum sound,
Speaker 2: and yet nobody can do it. And he was a
Speaker 2: serious avant garde jazz noise guy. He was, you know,
Speaker 2: Anthony Brianxton is a huge inspiration for him. He was
Speaker 2: in so many noise bands and was really interested in
Speaker 2: that of super abstract stuff. But he just brought so
Speaker 2: much heart and intensity to that kind of song you
Speaker 2: can't imagine it without him. Next is Inner, one of
Speaker 2: the great guitar heroes of all time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean those are It's incredible to have a
Speaker 1: song that only has one of the most iconic drum
Speaker 1: beats of all time, but also one of the most
Speaker 1: iconic guitar riffs. Like it's just like such a perfect
Speaker 1: combination happening on there. That's, like you said, a lot
Speaker 1: of people have tried to rip off, which we can
Speaker 1: get into, of course, we talked about in the Maxmartin
Speaker 1: episode Since You've Been Gone. There is no hiding in
Speaker 1: the fact that the writers of Since You've Been Gone,
Speaker 1: Max Marten and Doctor Luke really wanted to do their
Speaker 1: own version of Maps because this was like a big
Speaker 1: indie rock pop crossover moment, not even just for the
Speaker 1: aa as, but for that entire scene. And you know,
Speaker 1: they fell in love with that song much like millions
Speaker 1: of other people around the world. And so Since She'd
Speaker 1: Been Gone was a song that was very much inspired
Speaker 1: and kind of pulled from how Map sounds and sort
Speaker 1: of that attitude and worked extremely well.
Speaker 2: Extremely well. But if you happen to be a fan
Speaker 2: of the aa yes or Maps, or you even knew
Speaker 2: that song first time you heard Since You've Been Gone,
Speaker 2: you had to think, what are they thinking? You've got
Speaker 2: to be kidding me. It was so obvious, it was
Speaker 2: so funny, it was so great, just that turnaround in
Speaker 2: the bridge where they even totally rip off that Brian
Speaker 2: Chase drum sound. It's really great, and it's really kind
Speaker 2: of beautiful tribute because this is the kind of song
Speaker 2: that they're trying to do. They're trying to do a
Speaker 2: very much Strokes ya ya yeahs kind of song in
Speaker 2: a pop context and incredibly brilliantly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they pull it off. Kelly Clarkson was the
Speaker 1: perfect person.
Speaker 3: I do it.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's funny that everybody in teen pop wanted to
Speaker 2: rip that song. We cannot forget the great the legend
Speaker 2: Ashley Simpson doing La La to Me, that is one
Speaker 2: of the gray pop hits of the two thousands, along
Speaker 2: with Since You've Been Gone, could not be more blatant
Speaker 2: as a beautiful and brilliant rip of the ya yeah
Speaker 2: yeahs and Maps.
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say that the aaas were very
Speaker 1: very much kind of a blueprint for a lot of
Speaker 1: pop stars at this time in terms of kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, making more of a pop rock sound, kind
Speaker 1: of that indie pop sound that a song like Maps
Speaker 1: did so well, was the way that that spread across
Speaker 1: pop music was so important, and that it's so much
Speaker 1: a part of a lot of early Ashley Simpson music.
Speaker 1: You know, I would say even kind of goes as
Speaker 1: far as when we get into like the Miley, Selena
Speaker 1: Demi early years of their releasing music, there is kind
Speaker 1: of you can kind of see that through line from
Speaker 1: what was happening in indie rock and indie pop and
Speaker 1: pop music in the early two thousands to like what
Speaker 1: they were doing even a decade later, like you could
Speaker 1: still kind of hear that influence of a song like Maps,
Speaker 1: like everyone's still trying to make maps, even like a
Speaker 1: decade later in the in the teen pop sphere, the
Speaker 1: song again continues to have so much life and even
Speaker 1: just a few years well, I don't know, I guess
Speaker 1: it's been a while now. In my head, it happened
Speaker 1: like two years ago. But with the album Lemonade, Beyonce
Speaker 1: interpolates Maps on the song hold Up and of course
Speaker 1: has another another life for the song, which is I
Speaker 1: mean that whole song is just like incredible, That whole
Speaker 1: el was incredible, but like what a fun thing to
Speaker 1: have Beyonce saying they don't Love You like I Love
Speaker 1: You on anything.
Speaker 2: Well, a truly great and shocking moment is just that,
Speaker 2: the whole Lemonade experience and the whole like Lemonade event,
Speaker 2: and just what Beyonce did in terms of like this
Speaker 2: song that is. I mean, honestly, the shock of Lemonade
Speaker 2: is hard to describe in so many ways, but hold
Speaker 2: Up is definitely like a shocking part of it. And
Speaker 2: then it was really a shock at the time to listen.
Speaker 2: I remember that Saturday night of listening to Lemonade and
Speaker 2: hold Up comes up, and it's extremely extremely surprising. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's funny because it was Lemonade came out the week
Speaker 2: that Prince died, and Prince died on Thursday, and the
Speaker 2: album came out on Saturday night and Friday night. The
Speaker 2: Yeah Yeah Yes played a secret gig, a fans gig.
Speaker 2: It was for a film festival in Karen's husband directed
Speaker 2: a It was a documentary with the great rock photographer
Speaker 2: Mick Rock. So they did a secret show and it
Speaker 2: was really amazing because they hadn't played in a while,
Speaker 2: and because Bowie had just died. They did a set
Speaker 2: of Bowie covers as a tribute. But because Prince had
Speaker 2: just died the previous day. They did when You Were Mine, Yeah,
Speaker 2: as a beautiful Prince tribute and they had like dads
Speaker 2: from TV on the radio and it was just a
Speaker 2: beautiful tribute. And afterwards I was thinking, Wow, they were
Speaker 2: in a really good mood. They were really having fun,
Speaker 2: Like it was really kind of beautiful. And then you know,
Speaker 2: lemonade drops the next day at what message Nick that?
Speaker 2: And I was like, now I understand why you guys
Speaker 2: were in such a cheerful mood yesterday. You had no
Speaker 2: idea you were about to have such a big weekend.
Speaker 2: But it was like, really just kind of beautiful that
Speaker 2: the story of this song just never ends.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to have your opinion on the indie
Speaker 1: Slee's revival that people can't stop talking about.
Speaker 4: And I feel like it's a weird.
Speaker 1: It's like a sort of like a fashion thing and
Speaker 1: obviously pulls so much from Karen O and from the Aias,
Speaker 1: and it's so much inspired by them. It's kind of
Speaker 1: funny to me that we haven't seen like more more
Speaker 1: bands pop up sort of pulling from from this era
Speaker 1: and kind of have seen it resurface in a in
Speaker 1: a musical way beyond just kind of like the aesthetic
Speaker 1: and sort of the meet Me in the Bathroom of
Speaker 1: it all, beyond of course the music. So I was
Speaker 1: wondering what your opinion then, do you feel like we're
Speaker 1: going to see like another sort of revival of this
Speaker 1: of the sound and of bands and artists kind of
Speaker 1: inspired by by the aaas and a lot of their peers.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, well, we're in a full blown Indie Sleeze moment,
Speaker 2: which is, let's face it never going to end. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just a timeless aesthetic. And it's funny that the
Speaker 2: name for it, Indie Sleeves, is pretty new. Nobody called
Speaker 2: it that at the time, and it's one of those
Speaker 2: things where a movement and an aesthetic gets a perfect
Speaker 2: name after the fact. Nobody called rockabilly rockabilly in the fifties.
Speaker 2: That name just came later. Nobody made film noir and
Speaker 2: called it film noir. That came later. Indie Sleeze is
Speaker 2: a perfect example of that. People didn't call it Indie
Speaker 2: Sleeze at the time, but it's a perfect name for
Speaker 2: what it was and what it means. And it's very
Speaker 2: much driven by Meet Me in the Bathroom, which definitely
Speaker 2: takes this moment and makes such a great, timeless rock
Speaker 2: and roll story out of it. I feel like Indie
Speaker 2: Sleeves is forever.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like, especially for a a lot of people
Speaker 1: who were kind of teenagers in the two thousands and
Speaker 1: reading like Nylon magazine and like Spin and all of that, Like,
Speaker 1: there was so much absorbing of that scene that kind
Speaker 1: of felt so distant, you know, it felt like such
Speaker 1: a such so much more of like an adult scene
Speaker 1: than than others. And I think that people are kind
Speaker 1: of getting there at their chance to relive that, you know,
Speaker 1: like and going and listening to a lot of those
Speaker 1: bands and be able to see a lot of them
Speaker 1: still live, which is also that the best part is
Speaker 1: getting to kind of like go catch an NOLCA sound
Speaker 1: System show, see the AAA, see like the Strokes and
Speaker 1: all of that, and get to kind of live out
Speaker 1: a lot of those those musical memories.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and so many of the bands from this moment,
Speaker 2: you know, they had this Indiesley's moment that's iconic, but
Speaker 2: they had long, amazing careers and the yeah yeah yeahs.
Speaker 2: Although this is by far the most famous song, they
Speaker 2: have one of the most astounding catalogs of rock music
Speaker 2: of the past fifty years. Yeah, everything that they've done,
Speaker 2: they are still doing amazing albums to writing amazing songs,
Speaker 2: still doing amazing live shows after twenty years when most
Speaker 2: people kind of thought that they'd be a just one
Speaker 2: and done sort of you know, quick laugh, thanks for
Speaker 2: the memories kind of Yeah, band that they had just
Speaker 2: amazing staying power and so much that. I think it's
Speaker 2: just because Karen O was a start at time when
Speaker 2: she was a Korean American rock star at a time
Speaker 2: when that was so unheard of. Definitely nothing like it
Speaker 2: at that time in that sort of new metal era.
Speaker 2: But it's such a exciting moment for all these bands
Speaker 2: to be listening to each other, taking ideas from each other,
Speaker 2: pop stars, punk rockers, rappers, always hearing each other at
Speaker 2: festivals and ward shows, and being influenced by each other
Speaker 2: in these really exciting ways. The AA is obsessed with
Speaker 2: Missy And while they were making their first album, they
Speaker 2: were listening to Under Construction constantly, and the Missy Elliott
Speaker 2: was their template for what they wanted to do. Timbaland
Speaker 2: was what they wanted to do. They wanted something that
Speaker 2: emotionally and musically comprehensive and exciting, and you can hear
Speaker 2: a lot of that in Maps. It's really like very
Speaker 2: much Missy Timbland's song in terms of just the emotion
Speaker 2: of it and also the experimentation of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I had no idea that Missy was such
Speaker 1: a big influence on them, and also like beyond and
Speaker 1: of course you know just the amount of being alive
Speaker 1: and listening to Missy Elliott's hard not to be a
Speaker 1: super fan, but yeah, I know idea that there's such
Speaker 1: like a direct kind of inspiration on that era for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and under Construction such a classic Missy album, and
Speaker 2: it's funny. At the MTV Video and Music Awards in
Speaker 2: summer two thousand and four, Karen actually got to meet
Speaker 2: Missy and she said, your heart is so big, we
Speaker 2: get lost in that shit. I thought there was such
Speaker 2: a beautiful way to sum up Missy's impact on music,
Speaker 2: but also just how you can hear that in Maps,
Speaker 2: that just the idea of like a heart so big
Speaker 2: that you get lost in.
Speaker 1: Also with the Map story, have you heard the theory
Speaker 1: about my angus please day being the reason?
Speaker 2: Why do tell?
Speaker 1: I've heard this once and I haven't like let it go,
Speaker 1: and one day I will find out from Kareno herself.
Speaker 1: When it happens, I'll share the wealth. But the theory
Speaker 1: is that MAP stands for my Angus Please day, of course,
Speaker 1: inspired by Angus Andrews of Liars, the inspiration for the song,
Speaker 1: the inspiration for the crying and the video, and I
Speaker 1: think that's perfect. I love that so much.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So with the song being about Angus of
Speaker 1: course using his own band, Liars, and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of theories that the song the Other Side of Mount
Speaker 1: heart Attack is sort of his response song to Maps,
Speaker 1: Like how do you feel about that theory? Do you
Speaker 1: feel like that matches.
Speaker 2: Up Liars such a great band themselves. I love a
Speaker 2: lot of Liars albums. I'm intrigued by the idea of this.
Speaker 2: It's like this sort of like back forth dialogue. I
Speaker 2: have to say, this is very brittany, like you're dying
Speaker 2: to mention at least one of the Jonas brothers right now.
Speaker 1: I did think of them, and I have thought of them.
Speaker 2: It's a very Disney Channel pop era approach to like
Speaker 2: punk rock. It's like who's the Hillary Duff and who
Speaker 2: is the Aaron Carter and who is the Jonas of this?
Speaker 1: This musicians are dating. There's a song, and there's a
Speaker 1: response song. It's just the way the world works, and
Speaker 1: I don't want it any other way, you know. So
Speaker 1: even if it's not that song, I feel like they're
Speaker 1: one in there. I'm gonna I'll dig through the Lyar's
Speaker 1: catalog later and try to find it.
Speaker 2: I love that well, just clearly part of what makes
Speaker 2: Maps the Driver's License of its era and an ongoing
Speaker 2: story that will just keep getting rewritten in retail.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll look for any songs with like a k
Speaker 1: in there. It's like my Karen. Please stay well, we'll
Speaker 1: do we'll do some research on us. We are joined
Speaker 1: now by Rolling Stones Stuput music editor Julisa Lopez. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us.
Speaker 4: Guys, excited to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so do you want to tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit about maybe the first time that you heard Maps.
Speaker 3: I remember that album like when I discovered it, just
Speaker 3: like being something that I played over and over and over.
Speaker 4: I was obsessed with it. I was like in love
Speaker 4: with it.
Speaker 3: And I think part of it is because I grew
Speaker 3: up my parents were so strict I grew up so
Speaker 3: like restricted and like had this like super Nicaraguan family
Speaker 3: that wouldn't let me do anything, and there was so
Speaker 3: much freedom on that album. It was like so free
Speaker 3: and chaotic. Karena was just like doing whatever she wanted.
Speaker 3: So I feel like when you discover that you're a
Speaker 3: teenager and you're like, oh my god, this is what
Speaker 3: I want. Feel like having that feeling, especially like as
Speaker 3: a teenager when you feel restricted and then seeing you know,
Speaker 3: I think by the time then I got around to
Speaker 3: like the videos too, and like thinking about her live
Speaker 3: now just someone who went crazy when she was on
Speaker 3: stage and she'd be like yelping and like making these
Speaker 3: like wild sounds.
Speaker 4: On stage that were so visceral.
Speaker 3: I think it was just like something that felt really
Speaker 3: aspirational to me as someone who like wasn't again allowed
Speaker 3: to do anything because of my very in a Garagin family.
Speaker 3: I think it was also something about seeing Karena and
Speaker 3: such like a masculine sort of like rock centered world
Speaker 3: and also is like, you know, like a multi ethnic
Speaker 3: woman too who had that kind of freedom and who
Speaker 3: wasn't afraid to do that.
Speaker 4: I think was like huge for me.
Speaker 3: I remember like feeling like there was like a similar
Speaker 3: like energy with like mia and like that kind of
Speaker 3: freedom and that like you know, fearlessness.
Speaker 4: I think that's a word that I associate with her
Speaker 4: with her a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what was it about Maps and Fever to
Speaker 1: tell that like really struck you musically and like drew
Speaker 1: you in?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, well, I mean with all a fever
Speaker 3: to tell, I think it was just like the energy
Speaker 3: on it, Like it was such like an adrenaline driven
Speaker 3: album and again so unrestrained and so unlike anything that
Speaker 3: I feel like was really happening at the time. And
Speaker 3: this is like two thousand and three, Like I don't
Speaker 3: know what else is going on in two thom like
Speaker 3: I had like a Hillary Duff moment, Like it was
Speaker 3: like a lot of it was just very very different to.
Speaker 2: A lot of new metal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so much new metal.
Speaker 4: To too much new metal.
Speaker 3: But I used to think of Maps like in terms
Speaker 3: of like in the context of the album as almost
Speaker 3: being like this respite or this break from all of
Speaker 3: these like really energetic, punky songs on here and now
Speaker 3: that I kind of like was revisiting the album a lot,
Speaker 3: especially in twenty twenty three when it when it turned twenty.
Speaker 3: It's almost like I see it as like still being
Speaker 3: connected to this sense of freedom, right, just a different
Speaker 3: type of freedom. It's like this fearlessness when it came
Speaker 3: to vulnerability and this release of emotion that to me
Speaker 3: feels tied to all of the other sense of relief
Speaker 3: that is on that album and that like sense of
Speaker 3: release and the sense of like letting it all out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess we didn't really we didn't talk about
Speaker 1: the all the stuff that was happening in two thousand and
Speaker 1: three outside of.
Speaker 4: The New York rock scene, which like I feel like.
Speaker 1: Contextualized in the past. Was like so it feel goes
Speaker 1: like there's like a butt rock new metal moment, like
Speaker 1: and it was. I feel like it was like so
Speaker 1: much Karen in sort of this like post punk moment,
Speaker 1: and then you had like Amy Lee kind of being
Speaker 1: the like the I think like soul Woman in that
Speaker 1: new metal moment too, sort of just being kind of
Speaker 1: like icons and kind of presenting something I don't know,
Speaker 1: unique in those specific.
Speaker 4: Scenes for sure, for sure, I think too.
Speaker 3: What's interesting is that Maps is so different to what
Speaker 3: they were doing in general, but it was also just
Speaker 3: different to what was happening kind of.
Speaker 4: In both rock and mainstream pop.
Speaker 3: It is kind of like a weird song, Like it's
Speaker 3: like this combination of like being like really vulnerable and
Speaker 3: like you know, like having these like parts that are
Speaker 3: like harsher, but like it's.
Speaker 4: Also not like exactly like a super you know, like
Speaker 4: a yeah yeah yeah a song in a way. So
Speaker 4: it is a little bit of an ler I think
Speaker 4: in a lot of ways on.
Speaker 2: The earlier punkier indie stuff. That was like the first
Speaker 2: yaya yes that I heard, the first kind of stuff
Speaker 2: that started getting them attention. There was was all that bravado,
Speaker 2: that freedom that you were talking about, that sort of ferocity,
Speaker 2: and for this song to be so vulnerable, which was
Speaker 2: such a change up. Even people who went into this
Speaker 2: album already like loving and worshiping the aa yes and
Speaker 2: thinking Karen O could do everything. This song was a
Speaker 2: huge stretch. There was such a vulnerable, sad ballad, almost
Speaker 2: like a soul song, and that everything you know, just
Speaker 2: everything about it so audacious, the guitar just like the
Speaker 2: way it begins with that drone and then it just
Speaker 2: starts to rock in that jagged way. This was just
Speaker 2: way beyond like even what people expected from them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: And well then you have like the video too, where
Speaker 3: like she's literally like in tears sobbing, like you know,
Speaker 3: in front of you, like with a camera like this
Speaker 3: close to her face.
Speaker 4: So it was just that Yeah, that like sense of
Speaker 4: like bravery. I don't even know that.
Speaker 3: I probably like thought of that as like being super
Speaker 3: brave or like thinking about how vulnerable that that moment
Speaker 3: felt at the time. But in retrospect, I think that
Speaker 3: Karen now frequently gets associated with badassery for like that
Speaker 3: like on stage presence and for like racking out and
Speaker 3: for like you know, like throwing stuff and like doing.
Speaker 4: Whatever she want.
Speaker 3: But I think that that moment is just as radical
Speaker 3: as anything else that they were they were doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that video was like very formative, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: got like heavy rotation on MTV, and like, yeah, it was.
Speaker 4: It was a huge moment.
Speaker 3: And then they followed it up with why Control right,
Speaker 3: which was like horrifying Yeah too, But yeah that's Spike
Speaker 3: Jones like directed.
Speaker 4: Do you remember with the Kids? Yeah, I do love
Speaker 4: that song. It's like one of my favorites on there.
Speaker 3: But that video for some reason, like I remember too,
Speaker 3: like that's like kind of like when YouTube started entering
Speaker 3: my life, and I remember that being like in high school,
Speaker 3: Like the video, everybody was looking up on YouTube because
Speaker 3: it was so so shocking.
Speaker 4: But I think that's crazy too.
Speaker 3: The fact that the AAAS followed up the video for
Speaker 3: Maps with a video for why Control was kind of
Speaker 3: like the f you like, we don't really want to
Speaker 3: be on MTV.
Speaker 2: Well it's well, but you were saying about Fever to
Speaker 2: Tell and the whole album. It's such a brilliantly paced album. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean it's paste almost like an old school disco album,
Speaker 2: where like just you know, there's this pulse all the
Speaker 2: way through it and then these slow songs like these,
Speaker 2: you know, Maps and modern Romance, greatest live dance I've
Speaker 2: ever seen. It's funny because when you see.
Speaker 3: A band again, I wasn't allowed to do anything, just
Speaker 3: like listening to them in my room.
Speaker 2: And so you know when you see a band and
Speaker 2: they're playing bars, and you see them every step along
Speaker 2: the way as they evolve and their music gets complex
Speaker 2: and their audience gets more complex. So I used to
Speaker 2: see them at places like Hi Fi, which is you know,
Speaker 2: smaller than this room. Yes, I mean it was Brownies
Speaker 2: then yeah, like up on Avenue A and you know,
Speaker 2: Mercury Lounge, places like that, Mars Bar, and then seeing
Speaker 2: them over the years when they got to where they
Speaker 2: were playing you know, larger rooms, they got to where
Speaker 2: they were playing arenas, Yeah, and without losing any of
Speaker 2: their uniqueness and being almost more of themselves in an
Speaker 2: arena even than they were in a bar. It's really
Speaker 2: amazing that a band can evolve on that level without
Speaker 2: losing anything that made them special in original in the
Speaker 2: first place. Ye saw them at Forest Hills, which is
Speaker 2: like really beautiful with the Linda Linda's and Japanese brothers
Speaker 2: and Kareno had these really beautiful words on stage she said,
Speaker 2: you know, like to be you know, with these three
Speaker 2: bands with like these like Asian women making punk rock.
Speaker 2: Like She's like, well, you know, if I could go
Speaker 2: back in time, I'm telling little that this would be
Speaker 2: something that could happen someday. And it was just really
Speaker 2: like great to see them. You know, there's still one
Speaker 2: of the best live a dances on the planet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but even like it's like sampled in like a
Speaker 3: Black Eyed Peas song, which is great and like meet
Speaker 3: me halfway like the guitar wait, So it's yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean it's still I.
Speaker 4: Didn't know that very much.
Speaker 2: That's crazy.
Speaker 1: I love that song, No Wonder.
Speaker 4: I love that song has Maps in it.
Speaker 3: One of my favorite but you might know them because
Speaker 3: they're this Australian band that I love called camp Cope.
Speaker 3: Also did like one of my favorite versions of Maps,
Speaker 3: like a cover for like an LJ session that is
Speaker 3: so good and I love camp Cope.
Speaker 4: There's Georgia Mac Yeah, Georgia one of the conference's amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, three of them are amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So the way that like that song I think keeps
Speaker 3: having like keeps coming back, and I mean is in
Speaker 3: Beyonce's you know work and kind of keeps keeps sloping back,
Speaker 3: I think speaks so much to the to the resonance
Speaker 3: of it and kind of the emotional weight of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like on a lot of the recurring theme,
Speaker 1: I guess in a lot of the songs that Rob
Speaker 1: and I chose for this podcast and also that we've
Speaker 1: just you know, gravitated towards are these songs especially by
Speaker 1: women who kind of have had so many different legs
Speaker 1: of their career and like so many different kind of
Speaker 1: ways they've reached out to a new generation of artists
Speaker 1: or have inspired continuously just like you know, whoever's coming
Speaker 1: through music, but also new listeners and things like that.
Speaker 1: And I'm curious kind of like where you see Karen
Speaker 1: O in the future with that, because I think we
Speaker 1: are kind of seeing this continuous life of a song
Speaker 1: like Maths, but also just of the aas as a band,
Speaker 1: as an influence on music, Karen as a as a
Speaker 1: figure for I think a lot of women who want
Speaker 1: to sing in a punk band and kind of even
Speaker 1: just having like the Linda Lindez and Japanese Breakfast on
Speaker 1: a bill with them is such a great tribute to
Speaker 1: that just you know, even just like in age range
Speaker 1: and kind of influence and like the styles of music
Speaker 1: they're doing. Yeah, I'm curious, like what you kind of
Speaker 1: see that future of the Yea Yeahs and Karen in
Speaker 1: the future.
Speaker 3: I mean, I still see her like continuing to like
Speaker 3: inspire like an entirely new generation. Like I think it's
Speaker 3: only going to keep going, and I think people are
Speaker 3: only going to keep discovering the music, and that song
Speaker 3: in particular, I think is such like an interesting entry
Speaker 3: point I mean the whole band has always done that
Speaker 3: and found like a way to kind of preserve this
Speaker 3: really artistic lane that they're in without it, like you
Speaker 3: were saying, giving up any any of who they are. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that they've found the magic formula for you know,
Speaker 2: three very different people for staying together as a band
Speaker 2: just by giving each other so much room. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's really amazing that there's still a band, that there's
Speaker 2: still a brilliant band. They make great records, they do
Speaker 2: great live shows, but they've never been on that treadmill
Speaker 2: where they're forcing themselves to do stuff they don't want.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's really inspiring.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're like taking breaks, I feel like, always
Speaker 3: just kind of done like what they feel like doing so.
Speaker 4: Preserve a specialist.
Speaker 2: Karen's Opera was great and her her solo uh uh
Speaker 2: Korean American rock solo project was like that was fantastic.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know, Brian Chase is like so many like
Speaker 2: noise projects centers, so many metal projects that he's in. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they all find their way to combine the extreme things
Speaker 2: that they do on their own with this band identity.
Speaker 2: Karena's danger Mouse.
Speaker 3: Record, Yeah forgot about Yeah, or like collaborating with people
Speaker 3: like Perfume Genius. Yeah. I feel like they're always like
Speaker 3: identifying kind of where they fit it, which is the
Speaker 3: brilliant part.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: She's also done a bunch of stuff with Spike Jones
Speaker 3: over the year. She had like, I think they've collaborated
Speaker 3: on a song for her and stuff for Where the
Speaker 3: Wild Things Are.
Speaker 4: So she's kind of been, she's kind of been everywhere.
Speaker 2: She was on the Oscars doing that song from her
Speaker 2: and the little Robos looked like Ezra from Vampire Weekend.
Speaker 3: Like, well, thank you so much for joining us, Thanks
Speaker 3: for letting me talk about Karen.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Rolling Stone's five hundred
Speaker 1: Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling
Speaker 1: Stone and iHeartMedia. Rinnen Hosted by me Britney.
Speaker 2: Spanos, Emmy rob Sheffield.
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Jason Fine, Alex Dale and Christian Horde.
Speaker 1: Produced by Jesse Cannon with music supervision by Eric Siler.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for watching and listening.