1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: Also media, Welcome back to it could happen here. I'm 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: Robert Evans. This is a podcast about things falling apart, 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: and that's happening in a lot of places right now, 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: but not every place also has things regularly unfortunately falling 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: from the sky. But that's life in Ukraine for a 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: lot of people, including our guests today, every single day, 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: because they're still under invasion from the Russian Federation, which 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: I guess we're still calling it the Federation. Romeo Kokreatsky, 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. How are you doing. I mean, 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 1: I know it's not great, so I don't know why 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: I'm asking. 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me back on. It's been a while. 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, like you mentioned, it's it's not great, especially 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 3: for me personally. My neighborhood's been targeted by ballistics twice 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 3: in the past two weeks, one of which hit a 16 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 3: improperly stored munitions dump and blew up half the neighbor 17 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 3: So that's been that's been fun to deal with. 18 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: I mean, we have other stuff to talk about, but 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: I do want to just kind of talk about what 20 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: life has been like like in terms of dealing with that. 21 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: I mean, thank god, you have not been hit. Neither 22 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: has your home. But like on a day to day basis, 23 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: how are y'all enduring? 24 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 2: You know? 25 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: So many years passed when this escalated, most recently. 26 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 3: Honestly, I had thought, prior to half my neighborhood being 27 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 3: blown up that I basically gotten numb to the bombing. Yeah, 28 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 3: turns out that's not true. 29 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:33,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. 30 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: Turns out I was just completely lying to myself. 31 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I have mortal dread pretty much all the time. 32 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 3: Every night, I am desperately checking every single monitoring channel 33 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: I have access to and praying that the Russians aren't 34 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 3: going to shoot us. And if they do show us, 35 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 3: I then have to think, Hey, should I wake my 36 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 3: wife and sun up? 37 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 2: Should we go down to the shelter? Is there any point? 38 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 3: We live in the fifteenth flour so we'd have to 39 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: walk what a missile hits while we're in the stairwell. 40 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's a little tiring. It's a little tiring. 41 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, to constantly live your life with the feeling that 42 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 3: you may die at. 43 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: Any goddamn moment. I'm not even in the military. 44 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I am pretty much constantly afraid for my life, 45 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 3: and of course the life of my family and friends. 46 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 3: Every morning after a mass attack, I have to call 47 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 3: or text every single journalist who works for me make 48 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 3: sure that they're still alive. Yeah, and so far everything's 49 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 3: been clear. Everything's been clear for five years. But you 50 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 3: really have to wonder how long can can one's luck last. 51 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like you were talking about, you know, the 52 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: moment you start to feel like, you know, maybe I've 53 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: I've hardened, or maybe like I've gotten past the point 54 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: that this can affect me. Is the moment where something 55 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: you know, happens. I feel so awful that like the 56 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: constant state of like panic, fear, arousal that everyone has 57 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: to be in over there because they're just shooting missiles 58 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: and your home every day is just it's hideous. 59 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not great. 60 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 3: I haven't left the country since the start of the 61 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 3: full scale Yeah, And to be quite honest, I'm not 62 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 3: sure how I would do once this threat is no 63 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 3: longer above my head. It's hard to imagine going to 64 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 3: sleep and not wondering whether I'm going to wake up 65 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 3: in the next, like the next morning. It sounds a 66 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 3: little absurd, but then I think someone about three hundred 67 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: kilometers away has made a decision to lob multi hundred 68 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 3: kilogram warheads at the general area of where I live, 69 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 3: within two to three kilometers. 70 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 2: That is not a largey. 71 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: No, No, it really isn't. 72 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 2: No. 73 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: I mean ballistic missiles you know, often can go thousands. Like, 74 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: that's so easy to build something that you could just 75 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: fire blindly into a city at this point. That's that's 76 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: why war looks like this for most of the people 77 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: involved in it, right, Like, for all the movies are 78 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: about the guys like kicking indoors and shit on the 79 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: front lines. The vast majority of everyone's experience of war 80 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: is shit falling on you from the fucking sky or 81 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: exploding in traffic or something like that, right, Like, that's 82 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: the reality. I'm fucking sorry, man. 83 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 84 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 3: And in Kiev, honestly, we don't even have as bad 85 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 3: Yeah here, son, they're just doing a human sofari. They've 86 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 3: been doing that, yeah, I don't know, like six months now. 87 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 3: The front line is right over basically the river, and they, 88 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 3: the Russians, just send drones to hunt people in the 89 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 3: streets just for fun, you know, funzies for the lulls. 90 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: So as bad as I have to. 91 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 3: Be here, sometimes I read the stories I'm publishing, and 92 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 3: I'm like, man, thank god I don't live in that place. 93 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 2: Think I don't know anyone from met City. 94 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: Everything becomes so relative after a while, I mean, it's 95 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: the only way to stay sane. Even though your sheer 96 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: situation is objectively unreasonable and impossible, you kind of naturally 97 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: just look over to whoever's got it worse, I mean, 98 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: which says some thing beautiful. I guess if you'll let it. 99 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 2: But you know, I guess that's one way of looking 100 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: at it. 101 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: Fuck man, I'm sorry. I know. I brought you on 102 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: today to talk about some of the political changes that 103 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: have been pretty massive that have just just hit the 104 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: Ukrainian government as the result of the sacking of Mikhaylo Federov. 105 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: But that also feels like we should talk about that 106 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: some I just I don't know. Talking to you reminds 107 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: me of how much I even let myself overhear focus 108 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: on war in terms of stuff like that. Right, these 109 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: like moves by governments and moves by forces, which by 110 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: default means excizing the majority of what's happening from your mind, 111 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: because in some time, I mean, sometimes it's just too 112 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: big to think about Otherwise, right, but like it's. 113 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 2: No, that's exactly right. 114 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, whenever there's any sort of domestic local intrigue, I 115 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: am just overjoyed. 116 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: I'm excited again, that's something. 117 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 3: I know a lot of people wanted to be war 118 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 3: correspondents and like be there in the trench. And I 119 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 3: have a lot of friends. My buddy Dylan Burns. I 120 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,679 Speaker 3: saw a clip of him just getting shelled last week summer. 121 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 3: I think, come Zepparisia front. Yeah, that wasn't what I 122 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: wanted to do. I became a journalist because I love 123 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 3: politics the end, the pettiness thing hes all the little 124 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 3: like garbage bullshit that makes up the experience of human politics. 125 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 3: That's what calls to me in my dark, little shriveled heart. 126 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 3: So whenever I have the chance to engage in just 127 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 3: domestic political bullshit, I feel overjoyed. That is fantastic. 128 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: Well good, okay, Well let's talk about some domestic political bullshit, 129 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: because there's been a wild train of it in the 130 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: last couple of days. I'm just gonna let you go 131 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,799 Speaker 1: after starting this off, but like kind of what prompted 132 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: this is On July fifteenth of this year, Vladimir Zolensky 133 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian president fired or dismissed MIKHAILI. Federov, who was 134 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: the Minister of defenseive Ukraine, and Federov he'd been the 135 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: president's social media marketer initially, right like that back during 136 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: he was when he was campaigning, way before his involvement 137 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: in the military, if I'm remembering correctly. 138 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was a not just social media he was 139 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 3: the young like it guy. He was the it right, 140 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 3: all the IT infrastructure, from SMM, from social media to 141 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 3: the actual physical infrastructure itself, that was all feder Off. 142 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 3: He was like the it dude for the Lenski administration. 143 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's only had the position for about six months. 144 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: He was appointed in January, but it's been an incredibly 145 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,679 Speaker 1: popular six months, right, He is widely popular in Ukraine. 146 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: There were large protests following his dismissal, and he got 147 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: a lot of credit for his use of drone warfare 148 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: and particularly some of the promises he was making, and 149 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: some people would say some of the promises that he 150 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: fulfilled about drone warfare, right, And one of the issues 151 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: that he had is he kind of clashed, as I 152 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: understand it, with an older General Sirski, who was much 153 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: more of a conventional weapons gain. I think like the 154 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: big fight that Spurtlis came over like a fight over munitions, right, 155 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: Federoff was canceling an order of artillery shells or something 156 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: like that, and it kind of embodied the greater conflict 157 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: between them. 158 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 3: It seems like, yeah, that's basically right Federoff. Prior to 159 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 3: taking the Missary defense position, like I said, he was 160 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 3: the it guy, and he had the Minister of Digital 161 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 3: Transformation because we have a whole ministry set up to 162 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 3: digitize our government and we've got the da app and 163 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 3: a couple of good results from it. So he had 164 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 3: a relatively high level popularity compared to the typical Ukrainian 165 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 3: official coming into the MOD position, and he became popular, 166 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 3: or I guess his popularity grew not so much because 167 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,119 Speaker 3: he was doing drones. Like the transformation to drones occurred 168 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 3: pretty much from the start of the right. Yes, every 169 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 3: single unit has been ordering and begging and getting drones, 170 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 3: however they can since literally the the foll scale started. However, 171 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 3: what Federal promised to do and what he did, which 172 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 3: is what won him a lot of accolades with the 173 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 3: common soldier, is he said we would actually get you 174 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 3: drones instead of you know, you having to go through 175 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: fifteen layers of bureaucracy and procurement to maybe sign up 176 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 3: for a list where you might get delivered something in 177 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 3: four months. Somewhere, we'll set up a simple direct system 178 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 3: where you can request the equipment you want and you'll 179 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 3: get it. Well, it's not quite as simple. He develops 180 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 3: some gamification crap which you can get into later. 181 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: I'm not Yeah, it is really interesting, but yeah, yeah, 182 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: he's tried some really fascinating stuff. 183 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's tried a lot of things and it has worked. Yeah, 184 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 3: people have started getting drones. Like I know guys in 185 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 3: the front who had complained previously that they were unable 186 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 3: to get equipment even though they're posted, they're deployed, they 187 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 3: have a mission and commands just like oh we don't 188 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 3: know where your drone is. That started to be resolved. However, 189 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 3: in order to do this you need money. Right to 190 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 3: buy drones, you need money. So the Ministry Defense controls 191 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 3: the actual monetary flows. They have to actually sign off 192 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 3: on whatever the request from the General staff or the military. 193 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: Is to purchase this or that equipment. 194 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 3: System the way it typically works because the Ministry Defense 195 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 3: is a civilian institution, and the military is obviously a 196 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 3: military institution. Typically speaking, in wartime, civilians are intended to 197 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 3: defer to military expertise, right, So if the army goes, 198 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 3: we need I don't know, one hundred thousand and one 199 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 3: to fifty five millimeters shells, the Ministry of Defense is 200 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 3: not really supposed to say, you know what, nah, we 201 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 3: think you need this. 202 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: Instead. 203 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 3: This is the kind of the crux of the conflict here, 204 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 3: is that federal off seeing these requests from Syrski. Like 205 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 3: you said, he's a very conventional guy, a very conventional 206 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 3: Soviet general. He grew up in Moscow, went to the 207 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 3: Moscow Read Army Academy. To be quite honest, he's pretty 208 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 3: much a Soviet general through and through. 209 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: My understanding is he is a reputation for accepting pretty 210 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: gnarly casualties. Yeah, fair or unfair, he's gotten that reputation. 211 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: I'm not like an expert on his record. 212 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, yes, he has that reputation. And like you, 213 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 3: I'm not a military guy, yeah, a non army expert. 214 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 3: I've never studied strategy or tactics aside from meme posting, 215 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 3: so I have no idea how you know true or 216 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: not true? It is obviously you can look at the 217 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 3: lost records of the units that Cirski said to personally favored, 218 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,839 Speaker 3: and you can see that they are higher. But are 219 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 3: they hired because they are simply being used more often? 220 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 3: Like it's a war, there are going to be casualties. 221 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 3: There are simply no way to remove that fact. Or 222 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 3: are they higher because his commanders are incompetent in throwing 223 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 3: away human meat. You know, you've got people that'll say 224 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: one way, you've got people to say the other way. 225 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: But regardless, Cirski would continue to request these kind of 226 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 3: conventional munitions, and according to Serski's version, at least Federoff 227 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 3: will just completely ignore this and by whatever he wanted 228 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 3: the ministry by, typically this was drones. There was a 229 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 3: funny meme I saw of Sirski complaining to Federoff, with 230 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 3: the text reading the buzzing of your stupid drones are 231 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 3: hurting the infantry to advance. To give you a sense 232 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 3: of how Ukrainians. 233 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: Viewed this, Oh man, that's beautiful. 234 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: I really love that. I mean, really that's beautiful. 235 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: That's going in a history book. 236 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: From the feder Off side. 237 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 3: What they say the conflict is, which, knowing how Ukraine works, 238 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 3: I tend to believe them, is that in Federoff's attempts 239 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 3: to move these cash flows from buying conventional munitions to 240 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 3: buying drones, he started stepping on a lot of toes 241 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 3: in the General staff, right, because this is Ukraine, because 242 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 3: this is defense procurement. If you want to buy something 243 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 3: from a domestic supplier, the chances are that supplier is 244 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 3: owned somehow VIASL company connected to some general or some 245 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 3: highly placed military officials. That's just the nature of the game. Obviously. 246 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 3: Let's say if the General staff requests one hundred thousand 247 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: shells and they source half of it from the Ukrainian firm, 248 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 3: there's a good chance that there's a lot of generals 249 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:40,119 Speaker 3: that are going to be building. 250 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 2: Themselves in Uvilla after this. 251 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 3: If, however, you don't put that order in and instead buy, 252 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 3: you know, drones from the five hundred or one thousand 253 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 3: different garage manufacturers, which is how the drone industry works. Here, 254 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: that money is not going into people's pockets, and those 255 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: people get upset. Those people start explaining that you are 256 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 3: not a team player, that they can't work with you, 257 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 3: that you. 258 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: Don't listen to them. 259 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 3: They stopped taking your coals, et cetera, which is exactly 260 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 3: what we saw in the conflict between Federoff and Serski 261 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 3: on the reporting of it. So that's that's basically the 262 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: gist of it is Federoff tried to use his own 263 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 3: judgment and stepped on people's toes, redirected money, and Sierski 264 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: and the general staff were not fans. 265 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: I doubt Sirski cared really all that much. 266 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 3: However, he needs to keep everyone happy, and the officer 267 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 3: class is very heavily he involved in this creating military salaries. 268 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 3: Even officer salaries are not great. 269 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: No, and there's a lot of corruption and procurement, and 270 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: a lot of allegations of corruption and procurement, which is 271 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: not something any military doesn't have to be honest, but yeah, 272 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: that makes sense. 273 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: So finally he gets to the point where Serski went 274 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: to Zelenski and said, look, you have to get rid 275 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 3: of this guy. I can't work with him. And Federoff 276 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 3: separately went his line and said, look you have to 277 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 3: get rid of this guy. I can't work with him. 278 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 3: And then Zelenski goes to a private meeting with his 279 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 3: party in Parliament and says, hey, well, they both said 280 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 3: they can't work with each other, and I kind of 281 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 3: need them to work with each other, so I should 282 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 3: fire them both. But I can't fire Sirski yet, so 283 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 3: instead I'll fire Federoff. And that's what kicked off this 284 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 3: whole shebang. 285 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: How much do you buy? Because The Times had a 286 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: piece recently that was kind of I mean, quoting some 287 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: insiders alleging that this was partly to do with Zelensky 288 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: being jealous of federov popularity. And I've heard I've heard 289 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: rumors of that before that has not seemed to be 290 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: like the most I don't know, believable answer, So I 291 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: was kind of surprised to see The Times give so 292 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: much credence to it. But I mean, do you feel 293 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: like that's credible? Is that something you hear a lot? 294 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: Or is that where's that coming from? 295 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 3: I guess, I mean I have considered this a lot 296 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 3: because it has been something saved before. 297 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, when Valari's Illusiony was. 298 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 3: Made to step down as a top general and he 299 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 3: was replaced by Sirski, A lot of the kind of 300 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 3: speculation why this move was made was because Illushi was 301 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 3: very quickly becoming the most popular political figure public figure 302 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 3: in Ukraine. And then we saw budhanav throll Badanov, the 303 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 3: head of military intelligence who is now Zelenski's chief of staff. 304 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 3: When his star was rising and Zelenski had to fire 305 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 3: your mock, he took the country's top spy basically and 306 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 3: put him as chief of staff. 307 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: Now you don't hear about Pudanov at all except. 308 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 3: For some unflattering rumors on anonymous telegram channels. So there 309 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 3: is kind of a pattern you can see with Zelensky 310 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 3: seemingly defusing popular people around him so they are no 311 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 3: longer in a position where they can be so popular. 312 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 3: And in Selucies case, he recently announced that whenever we 313 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 3: do have residential elections, he does plan to stand in them. Right, 314 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 3: so he has in fact directly declared he will be 315 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 3: politically opposing uh Zelenski whenever we get back to normal politics. 316 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 3: So how do I say this? I am a cynical bastard. 317 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 3: I will believe the worst about anyone, especially a ego 318 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 3: driven TV star slash politician. It is not difficult for 319 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 3: me in my citizens Oh god, yeah, to look at 320 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 3: a man and say, huh, you know, what he probably 321 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: doesn't like being out shown on the stage. At the 322 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 3: same time, I like to hope that Vlenski has the 323 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 3: understanding that we're fighting a full scale war and that 324 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 3: his ego is unnecessary and detrimental to the war effort. 325 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 3: But but the truth of the matter is, I have 326 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 3: no idea. It certainly can be construed that way. 327 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 2: Let's say that. 328 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 3: I don't think construing events that way is unfair to Zelenski. 329 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 2: I think that's it's a reasonable interpretation. 330 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, based on the actions he's taken, and based on 331 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 3: the rumors and so on that come out of the 332 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 3: office the President. 333 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that makes sense what you're saying. I 334 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: don't have trouble believing that. 335 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: Now. 336 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: One of the things I have noticed is I've kind 337 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: of read it into Federov and I'm wondering, and this 338 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: is we're kind of our veering into some military theory here. 339 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: But it is something that concerns me when I kind 340 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: of look at some of the allegations about what he believes. 341 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure if this is entirely fair to him, 342 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: but it seems like his critics within the Ukrainian military 343 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: seem to believe that he basically is a believer that 344 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: drones and robotics can handle a huge amount of the 345 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: fighting load, right, and that this is like a major 346 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: solution to the manpower crisis, to the extent that is 347 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: sometimes accused of believing that they can handle much more 348 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,479 Speaker 1: of the load than is really realistic. In a way 349 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: that sometimes sounds similar to me to what some people 350 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: said about like air force generals and kind of the 351 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: post World War two period where there's this big understanding 352 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 1: that all we need is airpower. That seems to be 353 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: like the allegations against Federov, that he's saying, all we 354 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: need is drone power and robotics and we can kind 355 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: of use that to fill in every gap, and there's 356 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: a very reasonable critique that that's not sufficient. Now, I 357 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: don't know if that's fully fair to Federal, but it 358 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: seems to be like that's how he's being characterized, certainly 359 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: by his opponents. 360 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 2: Having listened to. 361 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 3: Him speak, I'll say that the characterization is a little 362 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 3: bit off, Like he might honestly believe that drones and 363 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 3: robotics have to completely replace human warfare, but it's not 364 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 3: like he lives in a fantasy world where he understands 365 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 3: that that's a possibility that we can implement right now. 366 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 3: It's more that he faces the banal mathematical fact that 367 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 3: we cannot match Russia. 368 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: We are a much smaller country. It is mathematically impossible. 369 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: Add into that the general unpopularity of mobilization, the whole 370 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 2: bussification stuff, the fact that no one trusts our aging 371 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 2: Soviet officer class to value their life or contribution if 372 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 2: they are drafted or joined the military right. That together 373 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: leads Federal to the I think pretty obvious conclusion that 374 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 2: the only possible thing we can do to even start 375 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 2: to match Russia in manpower is heavily embraced robotics. Now, 376 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 2: I do want to say a couple of things. 377 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 3: Ceter Off is a libertarian in the American sense, right, 378 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 3: and he's very young. 379 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 2: He's thirty five. He's he's literally my age, Jesus. And 380 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 2: this was back I think twenty seventeen or eighteen. 381 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 3: He ran as part of we had a tiny libertarian 382 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: movement called the five to ten Party, which their idea 383 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 3: was a flat five percent vat tax, flat ten percent 384 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 3: something else I mean, in stupid libertarian shit. I didn't 385 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 3: ever pay much attention to it because I always ask 386 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 3: them how old their girlfriend is and if they need 387 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 3: to use the car seat. Is my paying libertarians there? Yeah, 388 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 3: and again, so he may very well believe that this 389 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 3: is the case that humans need to be taking out 390 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 3: of what's the military euphemism, humans have to be taken out. 391 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 1: Of the kill chain, right right, removed from the kill chain. Yeah, 392 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: I love the term kill chain. 393 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 3: He made very well believe that he is good personal 394 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 3: friends with Alex Karp, the CEO of Palenteer. That's very 395 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 3: obviously the Omni Surveillance Corps were headed by ye the 396 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 3: Devil himself, Peter Teel, so there's a lot of red flags. 397 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: One of the first staymans he made after getting sacked 398 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: was that he's been already gotten a bunch of offers 399 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: from different Silicon Valley compani's. Someone close to him said that, 400 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: not that he that he hasn't taken. 401 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 3: No, no, he said that. During the briefing, I was 402 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 3: listening and it was him. Yeah, Alex Karp has already 403 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 3: called me and offered me a job. 404 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: Oh, he said, Alex krp Okay, great, yeah great. I'm 405 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: just remembering from a news article, are right now that 406 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: said I wanted to be a fair him because one 407 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: thing he also gets a lot of credit for is 408 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: over the last six months, which was not in his 409 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: position for long. But it's been a reasonably good six 410 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: months compared to some of the previous couple of years. 411 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: Right. 412 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: The front is stabilized in a lot of areas, and 413 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: there's been an incredibly successful campaign to damn image rushes 414 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: oil refining capacity that's taken out out a quarter of it, right, 415 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: And those are seen part of why he's so popular. 416 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: I would imagine there's a debate as to how much 417 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: credit does he deserve for both of those things. Both 418 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: of those things have happened right over the last six months. 419 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 420 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 3: And the hope was that if he was allowed to 421 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 3: complete his reform, so the next big thing that he 422 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 3: had planned to focus on was ground robotics, ground drones. 423 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: The hope was that if he had actually been able 424 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 3: to implement plans, we would see the same kind of 425 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 3: sea change away from human soldiery, human infantry into robotics soldiers, 426 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 3: just as we saw drones replace the sniper team, the 427 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 3: artillery team, the mortar team. 428 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 2: You know, so many of these kind of fundamental. 429 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 3: Roles that we thought a modern military monitoring minds armed 430 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 3: military needs. Turns out you could replace all of them 431 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 3: with drones. We don't know if that's going to be 432 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 3: true for groundrones, but that was going to be his 433 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 3: next project, and it definitely helped. 434 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: Bolster his standing. Let's say, when. 435 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 3: He goes, well, first off, I'm getting you the drones, 436 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 3: and second off, we don't need to throw away Ukrainian 437 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 3: lives on worthless neat assaults to win back half a 438 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 3: kilometer of territory. We can use easily replaceable robotics instead. 439 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very hard thing to argue with, I mean, 440 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: especially given how it's functioned. You know, it is worth 441 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: kind of noting that he was brought in as well 442 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: to solve the manpower crisis and that that certainly has 443 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: not been solved, although you know, he was in there 444 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: for six months, but like that still continues to be 445 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: a significant issue, even with the advent of a lot 446 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: more robotic fighters, which is, you know, proven successful in 447 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: certain areas of the front, certainly, but it continues to 448 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: be a pretty tentsious and mobile front in some areas 449 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: as well. 450 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And the fact is we still have I 451 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 3: don't know, maybe let's say another ten to fifteen years 452 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 3: to reach the terminator feature where you just you don't 453 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 3: need human infantry. It is a liability if you have 454 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 3: flesh and blood guys on the battlefield. We're not quite 455 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 3: there yet. You still do need flesh and blood meet 456 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 3: zat humans to do things. So molization is obviously a thing. 457 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 3: But I gotta say, every single Minister of Defense we've 458 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 3: had since the start of the full scale has had 459 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 3: the brief of reforming mobilization, so he is hardly the 460 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 3: first guy to fail out right, the general staff was 461 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 3: given the brief of reforming mobilizations. Zelenski himself said that 462 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 3: the Office of the President has the brief of reforming mubtlization. 463 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 3: Feder Off during his kind of exit press conference that 464 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 3: he gave after being fired, he said this a very 465 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 3: interesting thing. He said that in order to do mobilization 466 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 3: form in Ukraine, we need a new social contract. The 467 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 3: fundamental social contract between Ukrainians and the state is seen 468 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 3: by the average Ukrainian to be broken because of the 469 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 3: continuous and constant corruption scandals, because of the seeming, you know, 470 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 3: Soviet indifference and callousness towards human life. All of these 471 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 3: factors make the Ukrainian populace not especially want to die 472 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 3: for the state. It's not that we don't want to 473 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 3: die for Ukraine, but no one wants to die for 474 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 3: the Ukrainian state. And this is the fundamental issue. And 475 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 3: until that is addressed, there is there is no solution 476 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 3: for mobilization except for greater repression, right like, round people 477 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,959 Speaker 3: up even more, use greater force. That's the only thing 478 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 3: you can possibly do. There is no soft handle to 479 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: fix that. It's not even really a question of money, 480 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 3: because if you think that once you're drafted, they're going 481 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 3: to throw you in the back of a van, drive 482 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 3: into the middle of force, stick you there for two weeks, 483 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 3: not teach you anything, yell and beat you, then drive 484 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 3: you to the zero line and leave you there. That's 485 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 3: what the average Ukrainian men man thinks is going to 486 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 3: happen to them if they're drafted. And the fact is 487 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 3: we have lots of stories exactly like that, so it's 488 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 3: not exactly an unfounded fear. And until that's addressed, until 489 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 3: the Ukrainian State can you know, plausibly tell the Ukrainian people, look, 490 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 3: we care about your lives. We are doing this because 491 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 3: we are doing this to survive, not because some general 492 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 3: wants an extra badge or an extra villa or something, 493 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 3: and at that point mobilization reform can't start. But without 494 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 3: that change, you're not going to see anything. No amount 495 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,959 Speaker 3: of bureaucratic wrangling or racing salaries is going to result 496 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 3: in any kind of mobilization bump. 497 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: Well, man, is there anything else you wanted to get 498 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: to today? I think that was a really good point 499 00:26:58,480 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: to make. 500 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 3: I'll say this that the we did see that the 501 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 3: protests did pay off, so so I think that's the 502 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 3: one aspect of this we haven't talked about. 503 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a. 504 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: Very good point. 505 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 3: Why he is actually doing this, or why he is 506 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 3: actually taking steps to remove Serski is because of the protests. 507 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: So we didn't even get to that so much because 508 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: that just happened hours before we recorded this. But he 509 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: has announced that Serski is now being removed. Right, yes, yes, yes, 510 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: just happened. 511 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 3: Sorry, it was always going through case once Serski's name 512 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 3: was out in public. Right, the country's top general cannot 513 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 3: be this controversial. He cannot be the guy everyone is 514 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 3: talking about derogatorily in a nation, or you just you 515 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 3: need to have the trust of both the people and 516 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 3: the troops, and Serski once this scandal had reached the 517 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 3: level it was clear that he no longer had the 518 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 3: Jews to continue. But again, the reasons Lenky made these 519 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 3: changes is because of the protests. So we learned about 520 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 3: Federov's dismissal like late, I want to say, in the 521 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 3: fifteenth and then that evening a couple of I think 522 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 3: it was one ex volunteer, one ex soldier posted that 523 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 3: we everyone should gather out on Twitter, I think, and 524 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 3: then that that game steam. That was the start of 525 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,959 Speaker 3: the kind of five day protests. I don't know if 526 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 3: they're going to continue today now that Serski has been replaced, 527 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 3: but they've been happening every single day this week. And 528 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 3: again people came out first to kind of keep to 529 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 3: protest Federal's removal, to say, hey, keep federoff. Then it 530 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 3: became clear that Federal himself had refused to continue to 531 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 3: work with his Zelenski team. He pretty much told Zelenski 532 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 3: that I don't want any job. I wanted the job 533 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 3: that I had, but since you made that no longer possible, 534 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 3: I don't want to work for you. Once that dynamic 535 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 3: became clear the protests shifted more towards trying to get 536 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 3: Serski fired, were to get them to resign than to 537 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 3: get Federoff back in office, which is unlikely to happen. 538 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 3: But the protests have been first off, they not just 539 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 3: in Kiev, but pretty much in every major city, even 540 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 3: the frontline cities, even in Zupperisia, in Harkiev. One of 541 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 3: my journalists was in Harkyev and did a report from 542 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 3: their protests, and these are people who are getting air 543 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 3: bombed during the day and they're gathering in the center 544 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 3: of their city in protesting. The scale of it, the 545 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 3: speed of it in the general societal agreement is really 546 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 3: what what gave these protests their statem. 547 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: The same with the pro. 548 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 3: Nabu protests that we saw a couple of years backer 549 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,239 Speaker 3: last year, the same kind of dynamic, same kind of 550 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 3: protesting class. Let's say it's younger people, you know, from 551 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 3: eighteen to like thirty, typically more liberal, more progressive. However, 552 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 3: we come out in protest not for I mean, sometimes 553 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 3: we do come out for gay rights, but currently it's 554 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 3: more to correct our government's personnel choices than anything else. 555 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean, I guess it is positi that 556 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: it matters still, you know, which is certainly in some 557 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: ways a legacy still lingering of the Midon right is 558 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: that the government's not going to ignore that. 559 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't just say it's positive. I'd be 560 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 2: quite honest. 561 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 3: I cannot think of a single other democratic country on 562 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 3: the planet that is as responsive to the undifferentiated, random 563 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 3: cries of the masses. 564 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: Then there's this huge negative to that. 565 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. 566 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 2: Sorry, I mean I say. 567 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 3: It like this, and it might sound like I'm saying 568 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 3: this derogatorily, but I'm not. No, I think quite frankly, 569 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 3: pretty much all liberal democratic nations in the twenty first 570 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 3: century have almost completely abandoned the democratic part right. Either 571 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 3: people vote for local parties that simply don't matter, and 572 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 3: all the decisions are made in boardrooms that they have less. 573 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: Than zero impact in. 574 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 3: They got on protest and nothing happens except some kids 575 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 3: get beaten up by cops and then nothing fundamentally changes. 576 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 3: That That is not true in Ukraine. We have seen 577 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 3: multiple times where protesters go out with a concrete call 578 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 3: and the government heeds that call. It doesn't simply ignore us, 579 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 3: it doesn't just beat us up. It's fundamentally democratic in 580 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 3: a way that I have not seen any other country 581 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 3: in the world replicate so far. 582 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is very much worth continuing the note and acknowledge, although, 583 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: as you said, a mixed bag because the voice of 584 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: the people is not always correct about aspects of strategy 585 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: and governance, as a lot of places have learnt. 586 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, all. 587 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: Right, man, Well, do you want to plug anything before 588 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: you come out here? Tell people where they can find you. 589 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 2: Yes. 590 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 3: I am the managing editor of The New Voice of Ukraine, 591 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 3: which is Ukraine's best and premier English language daily u site. 592 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 2: You can read us at English NV dot UA. 593 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 3: Really easy to remember, that's English nvt UA and listen 594 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 3: to Ukraine Without Hype, which is a podcast from myself 595 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 3: in my colleague Anthony Bartaway. And you can find us 596 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 3: wherever podcasts or listened to just search Ukraine without Hype. 597 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, thank you all for listening, Thank you Romeo 598 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: for showing up again, and we'll be back tomorrow with. 599 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 2: Something else. 600 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 4: It could happen. Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 601 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 602 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 4: Coolzonmedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio, app, 603 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 4: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 604 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 4: now find sources for it could happen here, listed directly 605 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 4: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.