WEBVTT - #012 Jason Flom with Peter Pringle

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<v Speaker 1>With the police banging on the door open up. The

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<v Speaker 1>choice to be in that lineup was the last choice

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<v Speaker 1>I made as a free man.

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<v Speaker 2>A year later, I ended up writing the system.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

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<v Speaker 1>in the world is going to think as a.

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<v Speaker 3>Monster or suspect as a monster for the rest of

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<v Speaker 3>my life, and I'm just going to have to come

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<v Speaker 3>to peace with that.

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<v Speaker 2>Somebody was able to look at my picture in the

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<v Speaker 2>database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

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<v Speaker 2>I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

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<v Speaker 2>might have to play in my hanging. They had been

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<v Speaker 2>told that two prison officers would have to participate in

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<v Speaker 2>my execution.

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<v Speaker 1>Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,

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<v Speaker 1>all health broke news. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Today's guest is

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<v Speaker 1>a dear friend of mine and an extraordinary person, Peter Pringle.

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<v Speaker 3>Pringle was accused of participating in a murder of two

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<v Speaker 3>police officers following a bank robbery in Ireland. After his conviction,

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<v Speaker 3>he was sentenced to.

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<v Speaker 2>Death by hanging and the police officer who had lied

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<v Speaker 2>to get me convicted, was now a retired detective superintendent.

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<v Speaker 2>He had been promoted up to the top.

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<v Speaker 3>Just days before a noose was to be tied around

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<v Speaker 3>his neck. Peter learned that Ireland's president had commuted his

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<v Speaker 3>sends to forty years without parole.

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<v Speaker 2>It faced the forty years, which wasn't the possibility for

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<v Speaker 2>me at the time. I could kill myself, which at

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<v Speaker 2>the time was a reasonable house.

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<v Speaker 1>Peter, what an extraordinary story. So happy to have you here.

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<v Speaker 1>You're also the first guest on Wrongful who's not born

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<v Speaker 1>in America.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you. It's an honor to be here. Thank you

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<v Speaker 2>very much.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was just saying, it's exciting that you're here because,

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<v Speaker 1>as I said, we're taking it international now, right. You're

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<v Speaker 1>as Irish as Irish can be. So Peter, let's go

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<v Speaker 1>back to the we're talking. This is a very interesting

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<v Speaker 1>time right when things were going sort of crazy in

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<v Speaker 1>your home country, right, So bring us back to what

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<v Speaker 1>was give us the climate in there.

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<v Speaker 2>What happened was in nineteen eighty there was a bank

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<v Speaker 2>robbery in Ireland which the police serf was carried out

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<v Speaker 2>by two three men rather and the getaway car traveling

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<v Speaker 2>across country, small country roads, collided with a police car

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<v Speaker 2>at a small crossroads.

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<v Speaker 1>It sounds like a movie.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well this is now the police version of events

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<v Speaker 2>because it goes I wasn't there, so I really can't

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<v Speaker 2>give you the I can give you what I think

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<v Speaker 2>is the accurate event of what happened because of my

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<v Speaker 2>later investigations. But there was the two cars collided, there

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<v Speaker 2>was an exchange of going far and two police officers

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<v Speaker 2>were killed, and the three raiders escaped across country, the

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<v Speaker 2>three bank crappers.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and where did this happen?

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<v Speaker 2>In a town called Balhadrin and County ross Common in Ireland.

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<v Speaker 1>But at the time you were far away.

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<v Speaker 2>I was in a different region, different county altogether. That's it.

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<v Speaker 1>That's an important detail.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So that evening one man was arrested not too

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<v Speaker 2>far away and he had a bullet wound in his chest.

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<v Speaker 2>And the following morning a second man was arrested and

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<v Speaker 2>the third man escaped across country. And two days after

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<v Speaker 2>the crime, a police officer managed to catch the man

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<v Speaker 2>that were chasing, actually caught hold of him and was

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<v Speaker 2>the only police officer to see the man with When

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<v Speaker 2>the man wasn't wearing a mask, but the man struggled

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<v Speaker 2>and got away from the police officer, ran away across

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<v Speaker 2>the fields, stole a car and escaped again, and apparently

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<v Speaker 2>he passed through the town where I was and got

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<v Speaker 2>away again from the police. And twelve days after the crime,

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<v Speaker 2>they arrested me and brought me in and framed me

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<v Speaker 2>up for the crime I hadn't committed.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, there was there's a backstory there too, right, there

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<v Speaker 1>was a reason they wanted you. Right, you were known

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<v Speaker 1>to the cops and you were a person that they

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<v Speaker 1>would have liked to pin something on, and this was

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<v Speaker 1>sort of a cond Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I was known in the context that I was

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<v Speaker 2>a political activist. I'd been a political activist from the

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<v Speaker 2>time I was sixteen years of age, and I'd been

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<v Speaker 2>involved with the IRA, and I had been interned when

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<v Speaker 2>I was eighteen years of age. From nineteen fifty seven

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<v Speaker 2>to fifty nine, I was imprisoned in a prison camp

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<v Speaker 2>on the Coral in Ireland without interment. It means that

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<v Speaker 2>you're imprisoned without any charge or trial on suspicion. So

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<v Speaker 2>they had this background. They classified me as a subversive

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<v Speaker 2>so it was handy for them to get me off

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<v Speaker 2>the streets. That's the way they saw it. But at

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<v Speaker 2>the time at the crime happened, I had a very

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<v Speaker 2>serious alcohol problem and I was on a binge. I

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<v Speaker 2>was drinking. I had been drinking buddies for days and

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<v Speaker 2>days and days. And then they told me that they

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<v Speaker 2>thought the police might be looking for me. I said,

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<v Speaker 2>what for what? So I decided, well, you know, I'd

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<v Speaker 2>have to come off the drink and go and go

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<v Speaker 2>to the police and find out what this is all about.

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<v Speaker 2>But before that happened, I had come off to drink.

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<v Speaker 2>But before I could go to them, they found me

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<v Speaker 2>in the house of a friend and arrested me and

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<v Speaker 2>took me in.

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<v Speaker 1>They found you in the house of friends. So you

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<v Speaker 1>were on this this binge. Yeah, knowing you you're you're

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<v Speaker 1>someone who's prone to extremes.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, some days I've been drinking.

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<v Speaker 1>Twelve days of drinking. That's a lot of drinking. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And I imagine this is this is not casual drinking,

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<v Speaker 1>This is.

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<v Speaker 2>No this is this was serious alcoholic drinking. Yes. And

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<v Speaker 2>I've been a fisherman you see at sea, which probably

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<v Speaker 2>saved me because when you go to see in a

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<v Speaker 2>trawler you don't drink. There's not drinking a boat, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I only drank when when I got ashore, which

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<v Speaker 2>was a different story. And at the time of my arrest,

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<v Speaker 2>I was a skipper of a boat carrying cargo out

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<v Speaker 2>of the Arden Islands, which are three islands off the

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<v Speaker 2>west coast of Ireland as Away off Galway Bay and

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<v Speaker 2>habited islands. So my job was to carry different cargoes

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<v Speaker 2>on the ship boat out of the islands of landed

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<v Speaker 2>safety and bring the boat back safely. That was my

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<v Speaker 2>job at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, just to give some context, Peter looks like the

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<v Speaker 1>skipper of a boat. He's very tall and strong and

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<v Speaker 1>very well built. I mean, he's got long flowing hair.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, for someone like me who grew up in Manhattan,

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<v Speaker 1>what would I know about skippers of boats? Right, we

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<v Speaker 1>have rowboats in Central Park here. That's about it. But

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<v Speaker 1>in any case, yes, he very much looks the part.

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<v Speaker 1>So you were so this was your job at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>That was my job, and as luck would have it,

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<v Speaker 2>I took the day off work the day that the

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<v Speaker 2>robbery happened and went on a binge and they used

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<v Speaker 2>that against me as I had taken the day off

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<v Speaker 2>work to go and commit the robbery hadn't happened. But anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>when I was arrested and I was taken to the

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<v Speaker 2>police station, there's a funny thing about that too, because

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<v Speaker 2>after twelve days on drinking, you know, I was entering

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<v Speaker 2>into detox because this was the first day I hadn't drank.

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<v Speaker 2>And when they arrested me and took me into the

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<v Speaker 2>police card, two detectives each side of me, I had

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<v Speaker 2>to shiver it and they said I was shivering because

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<v Speaker 2>of fear, because of killed skilled. I was shivering because

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<v Speaker 2>I was after binge. But when they got me into

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<v Speaker 2>the police station, they first thing they did was strip

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<v Speaker 2>me naked and a team of detectives walked around and

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<v Speaker 2>inspected my body, which I found to be very weird,

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<v Speaker 2>and they all looked very disappointed, and I didn't know why.

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<v Speaker 2>I later discovered they were disappointed because I didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>a bullet wound. Because I remember the guy that they

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<v Speaker 2>arrested had been shot told him that his friend had

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<v Speaker 2>also been shot, so they were looking to see had

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<v Speaker 2>I a bullet wound, And when I didn't have a

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<v Speaker 2>bullet wound, that looked very disappointed. But that didn't stop

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<v Speaker 2>them framing me up. So I was arrested at three

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<v Speaker 2>o'clock on a Saturday afternoon, and at four o'clock they

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<v Speaker 2>commenced interrogations and I was interrogated from four pm Saturday

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<v Speaker 2>afternoon until four thirty am on Sunday morning.

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<v Speaker 1>Twelve and a half hours.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there was a break when I had a visit,

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<v Speaker 2>two breaks when I had two short visits with my

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<v Speaker 2>lawyers in the middle, but that was twelve hours.

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<v Speaker 1>Basically, you and two detectors in the room had that may.

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<v Speaker 2>And the team of detectives they were coming in relays

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<v Speaker 2>of towo's and trees and interrogating and you know, with

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<v Speaker 2>the occasional beating in the thrown in for good measure

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<v Speaker 2>because two colleagues had been killed and they were very,

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<v Speaker 2>very angry. And so then at four am in the morning,

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<v Speaker 2>I was brought down into a dirty cell and put

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<v Speaker 2>into a dirty cell, and a police officer was outside

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<v Speaker 2>with a baton, and it's a solid door, and they

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<v Speaker 2>closed the door and then he was outside banging on

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<v Speaker 2>the metal door with his baton so that I couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>fall asleep. And then at eight am they took me

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<v Speaker 2>out of the cell and at eight thirty re commenced

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<v Speaker 2>interrogations and I was interrogated from eight thirty am on

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<v Speaker 2>Sunday morning right through until four thirty am on Monday morning.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, that's an twenty hours yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And during that day it's very interesting actually in the

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<v Speaker 2>afternoon that was on the Sunday what we're known in

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<v Speaker 2>Ireland as the Heavy Gang. These were the Serious Crime

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<v Speaker 2>Squad who had a terrible reputation. They took over the

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<v Speaker 2>police station and they allowed they let all the local

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<v Speaker 2>police go off to a football match or something, and

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<v Speaker 2>so the only people in the police station with me

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<v Speaker 2>on Sunday afternoon were the Serious Crime Squad and Special Branch.

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<v Speaker 2>And at one point in the afternoon I was being

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<v Speaker 2>interrogated and they when they beat you, they make sure

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<v Speaker 2>you have to leave mark so you get kidney punches.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be standing while they be questioning me, and one

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<v Speaker 2>would come behind me with his pistol and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>whack you in the kidneys, which is very very painful.

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<v Speaker 2>And are they take their boots and rask them down

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<v Speaker 2>along my shins, you know, along the shin bone, along

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<v Speaker 2>the skin to tear the skin. Stuff like that. You

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't think about a stamp on your toes. These are big,

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<v Speaker 2>heavy men, you know, and you're wearing a pair of

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<v Speaker 2>canvas shoes that they've given me. And at one point

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<v Speaker 2>that I knew I needed to break this was, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I knew I was. I was getting very tired of this.

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<v Speaker 2>So I said I wanted to use the toilet, and

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<v Speaker 2>they said you're not going to use the toilet. You're

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<v Speaker 2>not going to use the toilet, you know, because they

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<v Speaker 2>used fierce language, you know. And I waited a little

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<v Speaker 2>while and then I said to the inspector who was

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<v Speaker 2>conducting matters, I said, it's like this now, I said,

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<v Speaker 2>if you don't have to use the toilet, I said,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to pissl the floor here in this office.

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<v Speaker 2>They went there and he said, well he would too,

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<v Speaker 2>he would too to be you know. So with that

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<v Speaker 2>they left the room and they called in two other

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<v Speaker 2>detectives and they left the room, and after about ten minutes,

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<v Speaker 2>they were told to take me out of the toilet.

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<v Speaker 2>So the two detectors took me out. I was in front,

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<v Speaker 2>walked out the door, down the corridor and turned right

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<v Speaker 2>along a long corridor and about halfway down this corridor,

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<v Speaker 2>there's an alcove to a staircase going stairs, waves going.

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<v Speaker 1>Up, and the.

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<v Speaker 2>Men's room was on the left, near the opposite that

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<v Speaker 2>that's alcove. And at the end of the corridor, the

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<v Speaker 2>door was open out onto the car park and the street.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm walking now, but you know, you can imagine

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sort of hypertense because of all that's happening, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm walking down along the corridor, and I had the

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<v Speaker 2>door open because they wanted me to make a run

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<v Speaker 2>for it.

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<v Speaker 1>So they could see you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And when I got just at this alcohol, a

0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.439
<v Speaker 2>detective standing in the alcohol that I couldn't see, put

0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.480
<v Speaker 2>his foot out to trip me. But I was so

0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:56.720
<v Speaker 2>hypertense I saw it and I lift him. I stepped

0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.280
<v Speaker 2>over his foot, and the detective behind me says, ah,

0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.120
<v Speaker 2>you won't catch Peter like that. And with that, the

0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:05.280
<v Speaker 2>guy that had tried to trip me says, I'll fucking

0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.680
<v Speaker 2>catch him, he says, and he cocked a noosy submachine gun.

0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.120
<v Speaker 2>He said, I'll kill the bastard. And I got on

0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:15.520
<v Speaker 2>a merciful push in my back and I was propelled

0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:19.600
<v Speaker 2>through the door of the men's room and up against

0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.800
<v Speaker 2>the wall to the side, and the detective behind me,

0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.360
<v Speaker 2>who was a Special Branch detective, shielded my body, put

0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.080
<v Speaker 2>his hands up like that. She eded my body and

0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.800
<v Speaker 2>said into my ears, say nothing, say nothing, Say nothing,

0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.120
<v Speaker 2>and he said to his call he shut the door,

0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.000
<v Speaker 2>and they shut the door, and there was a big

0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.320
<v Speaker 2>for already going on out in the hallway. The guy

0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.360
<v Speaker 2>with a gun was wanting to get at me. And

0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.199
<v Speaker 2>the next thing we heard a torretive voice saying, what's

0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:49.520
<v Speaker 2>going on here? And then hand me that weapon and

0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.040
<v Speaker 2>then to somebody has take care of that weapon, and

0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.520
<v Speaker 2>he says, you to my office. And I gather what

0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.440
<v Speaker 2>happened to was as superintendent came in and saw what

0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:03.040
<v Speaker 2>was going on, stopped it. But in the toilet, the

0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.120
<v Speaker 2>detective that was protecting me still covered my back, covered

0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:08.440
<v Speaker 2>me with his body, which is a very brave thing

0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:10.120
<v Speaker 2>to do, because I thought the lunatic was going to

0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:14.679
<v Speaker 2>shoot me. And then when everything had quite and down,

0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.640
<v Speaker 2>he says to me, I need to have a pin

0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.800
<v Speaker 2>out too, he says, after all that, and so that

0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.720
<v Speaker 2>was it, and that was brought back and the interrogations continued.

0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we've heard these stories from people who were

0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:32.560
<v Speaker 1>wrongfully arrested and subjected to awful interrogations in America. And

0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.680
<v Speaker 1>we don't really know much about the audience here because

0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.800
<v Speaker 1>we haven't covered it in any detail what goes on overseas,

0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.560
<v Speaker 1>but it sounds every bit as bad as anything that

0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.880
<v Speaker 1>goes on in America. And of course we do know that,

0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.400
<v Speaker 1>as you pointed out, when police officers are killed, they

0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:54.480
<v Speaker 1>get crazy, they get into an irrational state, and they

0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.640
<v Speaker 1>probably do things that they wouldn't normally.

0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:58.760
<v Speaker 2>Do normally do that's correct.

0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you you were subject to I mean from

0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm just trying to do the math, like almost forty

0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.959
<v Speaker 1>hours of interrogation. That's far, and I'm guessing that there

0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:09.880
<v Speaker 1>was well we know that you didn't get any sleep.

0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:12.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you weren't giving anything to eat.

0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, no, they would bring along a cup of tea

0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.319
<v Speaker 2>or something like that, you know, maybe a sandwich, you know.

0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, so they okay, so at least you had that

0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:21.880
<v Speaker 1>going for yourself. But that which is better than you

0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.040
<v Speaker 1>would have thought based on the way they're treating you. Right,

0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:25.920
<v Speaker 1>But then again, they like to do that, right, They

0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:27.240
<v Speaker 1>like to pull you in a little bit and then

0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.960
<v Speaker 1>put you back out and do that whole like psychological

0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:30.880
<v Speaker 1>torture thing as well.

0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Then when I was put into the cell down on

0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.800
<v Speaker 2>Monday morning at four am on Monday morning, I was

0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:40.480
<v Speaker 2>taken out again at eight o'clock and I was interrogated

0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:42.680
<v Speaker 2>then til noon on Monday, and then I was taken

0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:46.280
<v Speaker 2>on an armed desk card of police to Dublin and

0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.840
<v Speaker 2>brought before the Special Criminal Court where I was charged

0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:50.120
<v Speaker 2>with capital model and robbery.

0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.240
<v Speaker 1>But you never confessed, absolutely not.

0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.760
<v Speaker 2>I should tell you this one. My father was a policeman.

0:14:58.480 --> 0:14:59.960
<v Speaker 2>My father had been a police officer.

0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:00.640
<v Speaker 1>I don't know that.

0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And at the time when I was a young man,

0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:08.280
<v Speaker 2>and he knew of my involvement with the Republican movement,

0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.400
<v Speaker 2>and he tried to talk me out of it, of course,

0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.120
<v Speaker 2>and he said to me at one stage he said

0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.760
<v Speaker 2>to me, if you're going to stay with these people

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.160
<v Speaker 2>that you're involved in now, he said, I want to

0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:21.680
<v Speaker 2>tell you to give you some advice. He says, if

0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:26.440
<v Speaker 2>you're ever arrested by that crowd. And I said, what crowd?

0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:28.640
<v Speaker 2>He said, that crowd in the castle. Dublin Castle was

0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.400
<v Speaker 2>the center for the Special Branch. And he was referring

0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:33.480
<v Speaker 2>to a special branch. He said, if they deal with

0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:37.960
<v Speaker 2>political matters. He says, if you're arrested, don't answer any questions.

0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.040
<v Speaker 2>He said, give them me your name, address, and date

0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.400
<v Speaker 2>of bert and say nothing else. And I said, why that,

0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:45.720
<v Speaker 2>He says, because no matter what you say, they'll twist

0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:49.680
<v Speaker 2>it and use it against you. So when I was arrested,

0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.160
<v Speaker 2>and that was my policy when I had been arrested

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.960
<v Speaker 2>many times before, because if anything happened in the area

0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.000
<v Speaker 2>that I was in, they would do a sort of

0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.400
<v Speaker 2>round up the usual specs. Anything political happened, I didn't mean,

0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.200
<v Speaker 2>and they'd pulled me in and they questioned me, and

0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:07.840
<v Speaker 2>I'd say nothing, and they'd released me and that was

0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:11.800
<v Speaker 2>the end of it. So I knew about the procedures

0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.640
<v Speaker 2>when I was arrested. But they brought me before the

0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.320
<v Speaker 2>Special Criminal Court which was established for the trial of

0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:23.360
<v Speaker 2>political offenses, which is a tribunal of three judges, no jury,

0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.560
<v Speaker 2>and there I was charged and remanded in custody to

0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.680
<v Speaker 2>the maximum security prison where was put And in truth,

0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.080
<v Speaker 2>when I got to the maximum security prison that evening

0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.160
<v Speaker 2>on the Monday evening, and that was kind of interesting too,

0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:39.320
<v Speaker 2>because when I was brought into what they call reception

0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:41.920
<v Speaker 2>in the prison. I was stripped. Of course, they stripped

0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:43.680
<v Speaker 2>her to you're going into the prison. And there was

0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:47.760
<v Speaker 2>a senior chief officer what they call a chief officer there, Jaylor,

0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:52.800
<v Speaker 2>and they handed me prison claus. I said them, They said,

0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:53.960
<v Speaker 2>you have to put them on. You have to wear

0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:56.560
<v Speaker 2>prison clothes. I said, no, I'm a political prisoner. I

0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:01.280
<v Speaker 2>don't wear prison clothes. And they said, but after that's it. No,

0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:03.400
<v Speaker 2>I said, I'm not wearing I want my own clothes back.

0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:05.480
<v Speaker 2>And I said, if you don't give me my own clothes,

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.679
<v Speaker 2>I'll go naked. I did the respond to that, and

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.160
<v Speaker 2>I said, what well, some of them wanted to beat

0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:11.880
<v Speaker 2>me up again, you see. I wanted to beat me up.

0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.440
<v Speaker 2>And the chief said no, no, no, he said, are

0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:17.480
<v Speaker 2>you serious. I said, of course, I'm serious. I said,

0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm a political prisoner. I'm not wearing prison clothes. And

0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.600
<v Speaker 2>he said, give me his fucking clothes. So I got

0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.120
<v Speaker 2>my clothes and I was brought into the prison wing

0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.199
<v Speaker 2>where I was where everybody else was not wearing their

0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.280
<v Speaker 2>own clothes too, because it was a politic good wing,

0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.000
<v Speaker 2>you see. And I was put into a cell. And

0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.359
<v Speaker 2>I can tell you this much. I to get into

0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.520
<v Speaker 2>that prison cell with a clean bed, even though it's

0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.680
<v Speaker 2>a narrow, army type of bed. Take off my clothes

0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:46.480
<v Speaker 2>and get into the bed and sleep. It was such

0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:51.879
<v Speaker 2>a relief after forty eight harrowing hours and me I

0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:54.359
<v Speaker 2>was detoxing during all this time that I was in

0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:56.640
<v Speaker 2>the police station, and there I was. And then three

0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:58.800
<v Speaker 2>months later I was given a copy of the Book

0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.240
<v Speaker 2>of Evidence, and I saw in the book of evidence

0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.399
<v Speaker 2>where one detective sergeant was claiming that on the Monday

0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.520
<v Speaker 2>morning that would have been after thirty four hours of interrogation,

0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.119
<v Speaker 2>I had supposedly suddenly blurted out these words. I know

0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:15.720
<v Speaker 2>that you know I was involved, but on the advice

0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:17.840
<v Speaker 2>of my solicitor, I'm saying nothing, and you'll have to

0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.320
<v Speaker 2>and you'll have to prove it all the way. I'd

0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:23.760
<v Speaker 2>never spoken those words, because, as I said, all I

0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:25.679
<v Speaker 2>gave was my name addressed data bart and if I

0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:27.080
<v Speaker 2>wanted to use the toilet, I said, I wanted to

0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:27.639
<v Speaker 2>use the toilet.

0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:30.520
<v Speaker 1>So for thirty four hours of them interrogating you and

0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.679
<v Speaker 1>alternately beating you and switching people and going in and

0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.600
<v Speaker 1>out and depriving you of sleep and everything else, all

0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:39.600
<v Speaker 1>you gave them was your name.

0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Address, and birth data bart and to say to them,

0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.000
<v Speaker 2>I am innocent of what you're accusing me of.

0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.040
<v Speaker 1>So your dad's advice really stuck with.

0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.280
<v Speaker 2>You absolutely because he knew I mean, he was a

0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:51.359
<v Speaker 2>police officer.

0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:53.880
<v Speaker 1>Right, which is an iron ironic twist. It is a thing, right,

0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:55.840
<v Speaker 1>the fact that your dad was a police officer and

0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.440
<v Speaker 1>you end up being accused of killing two police officers

0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.800
<v Speaker 1>and then tortured by police office. Yeah, it's very strange.

0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:05.919
<v Speaker 1>Life is very strange, and your story is particularly insane.

0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:08.800
<v Speaker 1>So and what an odd thing to just reflect for

0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:12.320
<v Speaker 1>a second on the fact that you were just expressing

0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:14.760
<v Speaker 1>how you felt the sense of relief and you almost

0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.359
<v Speaker 1>sounded joyful at the idea that you were being put

0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.240
<v Speaker 1>into a cell in a maximum security prison just because

0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.000
<v Speaker 1>you had just been through this unbelievable ordeal.

0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.240
<v Speaker 2>Because I was away from the RDEL, you see, right,

0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:27.520
<v Speaker 2>I was safe from it. That's why I could relax.

0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.560
<v Speaker 1>I know. But you got to understand, like for anyone

0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.919
<v Speaker 1>else you know who's in society to hear that or

0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.879
<v Speaker 1>me right now, to go to think of how that

0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:40.320
<v Speaker 1>could be that you could actually feel happy about being

0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:44.959
<v Speaker 1>an innocent person put into a tiny cell with a

0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.880
<v Speaker 1>hard cut. But then again it was the best thing

0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.600
<v Speaker 1>you had seen in at least forty eight hours. Yes, right,

0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:51.200
<v Speaker 1>I could get some.

0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:53.280
<v Speaker 2>Sleeps, so my mind didn't go to that fact that

0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:55.200
<v Speaker 2>I was in the maximum security prisoner, that I was

0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:59.680
<v Speaker 2>accused wrongly. That stage my exhaustion, all I wanted was rest.

0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:02.240
<v Speaker 2>And then a funny thing happened the following morning. I

0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.320
<v Speaker 2>woke up at seven o'clock in the following morning. The

0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.080
<v Speaker 2>cell I was in was on the ground floor, and

0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:08.359
<v Speaker 2>I woke up the following morning at seven o'clock to

0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:12.040
<v Speaker 2>hear a voice outside the cell in the prison yard,

0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:17.800
<v Speaker 2>outside the cell, screaming, Jesus help me, help me, help me. Oh,

0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.159
<v Speaker 2>Jesus Christ helped me. Like I heard a scream, and

0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:21.960
<v Speaker 2>I thought, oh my god, what's going on here? Because

0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.000
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know. I thought maybe some prisoner was being

0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.600
<v Speaker 2>battered or something. And then I heard other voice saying,

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:28.720
<v Speaker 2>come on, come on, come on here, the cut that down,

0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:30.879
<v Speaker 2>come on, And there was a whole commercial going on

0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.320
<v Speaker 2>outside in the prison yard, and I didn't know what

0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.120
<v Speaker 2>it was. And I thought, really, I'm in a right

0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.240
<v Speaker 2>hell hole here. This is a prisoner being battered.

0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:39.560
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.159
<v Speaker 2>It was only afterwards when the cell door opened I

0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.960
<v Speaker 2>heard that actually it was a prison officer had had

0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:49.520
<v Speaker 2>a nervous breakdown in the yard and they were trying

0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:50.160
<v Speaker 2>to take him away.

0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:52.359
<v Speaker 1>That was your first morning.

0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.040
<v Speaker 2>That was my first morning experience in the maximum security prison.

0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:58.280
<v Speaker 2>What was the name of the prison, Port Leasha prison?

0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.119
<v Speaker 1>It was in the Midlands for at least so, yeah, well,

0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:02.600
<v Speaker 1>welcome to Port Lisia.

0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:05.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which it was. It's known colloquially as the Bark

0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:15.080
<v Speaker 2>the Bark. Yeah.

0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.159
<v Speaker 1>So at this point, had you already been sentenced?

0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:21.280
<v Speaker 2>No, no, just accused.

0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:24.520
<v Speaker 1>They've thrown you into this prison while you await your trial.

0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:26.280
<v Speaker 2>That's right. And I was swing. There was no such

0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:28.479
<v Speaker 2>thing as putting me in with other people and romand

0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:30.880
<v Speaker 2>I was put in with people that had already been convicted.

0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:32.720
<v Speaker 2>It was a politic good wing. So the way it

0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:36.560
<v Speaker 2>worked there, in one way, it was a tough place

0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:36.800
<v Speaker 2>to be.

0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.120
<v Speaker 1>So let's go forward to the trial and the conviction,

0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:42.960
<v Speaker 1>because there's so much more to your story. So the

0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:44.760
<v Speaker 1>trial takes, how long does it take to get to

0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:45.119
<v Speaker 1>the trial?

0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:47.639
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, three months after I was arrested, I got

0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:49.240
<v Speaker 2>a copy of the Book of Evidence and when I

0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:51.320
<v Speaker 2>read the book of evidence, I saw where the detective

0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.439
<v Speaker 2>sergeant was claiming that after thirty four hours of interrogation,

0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:57.520
<v Speaker 2>I had suddenly blurted out these words that did I

0:21:57.520 --> 0:21:59.160
<v Speaker 2>said to them already I know you know, yeah, which

0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:01.760
<v Speaker 2>I never said. And the first time I came across

0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:03.480
<v Speaker 2>these words was when I read the book of evidence,

0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.080
<v Speaker 2>and that was the principal evidence against me.

0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:10.359
<v Speaker 1>You're so called confession, my so called oral confession.

0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:13.119
<v Speaker 2>So when we went to try, now the two other

0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:16.359
<v Speaker 2>people had been arrested, the three of us were tried together, right,

0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:20.679
<v Speaker 2>So the trial took twenty three court days over six weeks,

0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:23.439
<v Speaker 2>and for the first twelve days of the trial, my

0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:27.240
<v Speaker 2>name wasn't even mentioned, apart from the fact they charges

0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:29.360
<v Speaker 2>were read out to me. After that, my name wasn't

0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:31.080
<v Speaker 2>mentioned for twelve days. So I'm sitting in the dock.

0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:35.680
<v Speaker 2>It's surreal as if I'm one of the audience, because

0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.080
<v Speaker 2>they're talking about stuff about these other guys and nothing

0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:40.240
<v Speaker 2>about me. And then after twelve days they went to

0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:43.639
<v Speaker 2>my case, and when my case was then opened, they

0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.920
<v Speaker 2>opened the case against me. The police officer who had

0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:51.240
<v Speaker 2>captured the guy they were chasing, whom they claimed was me.

0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:53.159
<v Speaker 2>Went in the witness box and he was asked to

0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:54.879
<v Speaker 2>see the man again and he said, yes, he's in

0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:56.920
<v Speaker 2>the court and can you point him out? And he said, yes,

0:22:57.160 --> 0:22:59.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm sitting in the dock. So he pointed to a

0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:01.720
<v Speaker 2>man in the public gallery, standing in the public gallery

0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:05.280
<v Speaker 2>and he says, that's him standing up there. And it

0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:09.320
<v Speaker 2>was really bizarre because all the public gallery in the

0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:12.720
<v Speaker 2>court was packed, but all the people standing beside this

0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.240
<v Speaker 2>man moved away from him and somehow found space, and

0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:17.119
<v Speaker 2>he was left standing like this on his own, like

0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:19.280
<v Speaker 2>something you can see in the movies, you know, And

0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:24.399
<v Speaker 2>the whole courtroom started laughing. It seems so funny. But

0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:26.879
<v Speaker 2>I was convicted. They never stopped that man, they never

0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:28.440
<v Speaker 2>arrested him, they allowed him leave the court.

0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:30.360
<v Speaker 1>Is it your belief that that was actually the guy?

0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:32.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh well, the police officer who had caught him and

0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:35.159
<v Speaker 2>spoke to him said that was actually the guy, and

0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:37.840
<v Speaker 2>he had the and he knew I was in the dock.

0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:39.120
<v Speaker 2>He knew I was the accused.

0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:42.879
<v Speaker 1>And it's interesting and bizarre though we've seen this before,

0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:45.639
<v Speaker 1>that the actual killer would come to the courtroom to

0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:46.760
<v Speaker 1>watch the proceedings, right.

0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:47.800
<v Speaker 2>Apparently he did.

0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:50.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that is a phenomenon that happened. It's so weird.

0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:52.480
<v Speaker 2>And so he was allowed to leave the court. And

0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:55.120
<v Speaker 2>I was convicted on the evidence of the detective sergeant

0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:57.080
<v Speaker 2>that I had spoken those words I told you about

0:23:57.240 --> 0:23:59.679
<v Speaker 2>that I never said, right, and that was the evidence

0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:00.800
<v Speaker 2>of him which I was convicted.

0:24:00.800 --> 0:24:03.040
<v Speaker 1>And sense death, did your attorney bring up the fact

0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:06.720
<v Speaker 1>that the other defendant had said that you had?

0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:09.960
<v Speaker 2>But he said to me afterwards that evening, he said

0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:12.840
<v Speaker 2>to me, now I should explain the situation in the

0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:17.320
<v Speaker 2>Special Priminent court. Not like in America, I the accused

0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:21.480
<v Speaker 2>of not allowed to sit beside these lawyers. Okay, So

0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:28.360
<v Speaker 2>you have the tribunal, the registrar, the solicitors, the barristers,

0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:33.720
<v Speaker 2>the journalists, and then behind and are raised slightly elevated

0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:37.920
<v Speaker 2>the dock. I'm sitting in the dock, So I am

0:24:38.000 --> 0:24:40.879
<v Speaker 2>about I suppose I am about the equivalent of about

0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:45.399
<v Speaker 2>six rows of seats behind my lawyers. And they're facing

0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:48.640
<v Speaker 2>the opposite direction from me. They're facing the court as

0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:51.080
<v Speaker 2>I am, so I can only see their backs, and

0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:53.960
<v Speaker 2>I can't consult with them. And the only time I

0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:56.760
<v Speaker 2>can consult with them is when the try that day

0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:59.679
<v Speaker 2>is over. So when I raised the matter with my

0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:02.000
<v Speaker 2>lwyers at the time, they told me, oh, well, you

0:25:02.080 --> 0:25:04.359
<v Speaker 2>can't be convicted now, as the detective has said, the

0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:06.560
<v Speaker 2>police officer has made that identification. There's no way you

0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:09.560
<v Speaker 2>can be convicted. And I thought, okay, I knew nothing

0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:10.560
<v Speaker 2>about the law at the time.

0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:14.199
<v Speaker 1>Well it seems logical though, understand it says, yeah, the

0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:17.520
<v Speaker 1>guy's here, there, he is, he is, and you're going okay, yeah, good.

0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:19.960
<v Speaker 2>But the thing about it is, if that had happened

0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:22.679
<v Speaker 2>in the North of Ireland, if my lawyers had been

0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:25.680
<v Speaker 2>any good, they would have asked for a mistrial straight away.

0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:29.399
<v Speaker 2>They would ask for dismissal straight away. But they didn't.

0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:35.240
<v Speaker 2>And actually, my senior counsel, who didn't even turn around

0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:37.040
<v Speaker 2>to look at this man, and didn't even turn around

0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:40.440
<v Speaker 2>to look where the police officer pointed to, he said

0:25:40.480 --> 0:25:43.680
<v Speaker 2>to the police officer, so you've identified the defendant as

0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:48.840
<v Speaker 2>the man, and the police officer said yes. And then

0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:52.080
<v Speaker 2>the prosecution council stood up and he said, in fairness

0:25:52.119 --> 0:25:53.879
<v Speaker 2>to the accused, my lords, he said, I have to

0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:56.359
<v Speaker 2>point out he said that this witness was shown a

0:25:56.400 --> 0:26:00.639
<v Speaker 2>photograph of the accused before the trial and they're not

0:26:00.640 --> 0:26:05.840
<v Speaker 2>allowed to do that, you see. So then that meant

0:26:05.920 --> 0:26:07.800
<v Speaker 2>that his evidence was just allowed.

0:26:08.760 --> 0:26:11.720
<v Speaker 1>Oh so his evidence of having pointed out the actual killer,

0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:13.880
<v Speaker 1>who we believe is the actual killer, was disallowed because

0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:16.120
<v Speaker 1>of that, but not your false confession. Were you able

0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:17.400
<v Speaker 1>to testify in your defense?

0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:20.639
<v Speaker 2>No, my lawyers said that no evidence against me, and

0:26:20.680 --> 0:26:23.160
<v Speaker 2>that if I went into the witness box it would

0:26:23.200 --> 0:26:27.080
<v Speaker 2>mitigate against me and that the state would put me apart.

0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:28.919
<v Speaker 2>And I wasn't afraid to go into the witness box.

0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:30.560
<v Speaker 2>In fact, I wanted to go into the witness box,

0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:34.119
<v Speaker 2>but my lawyers misdirected me and said, no, there's no

0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:35.680
<v Speaker 2>evidence against you, so there's no need for you to

0:26:35.720 --> 0:26:36.560
<v Speaker 2>go into the witness box.

0:26:37.119 --> 0:26:41.600
<v Speaker 1>So again another common factor that we see, well, a

0:26:41.600 --> 0:26:44.960
<v Speaker 1>couple of common factors that we see in these wrongful convictions.

0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:51.880
<v Speaker 1>You're a victim of police misconduct, prosecutorial misconduct, and incompetent

0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:56.720
<v Speaker 1>defense attorneys, and ultimately you're convicted and sentenced to death.

0:26:57.440 --> 0:26:59.959
<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about that moment, and then let's move forward

0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:03.520
<v Speaker 1>to the craziness that happened on the eve of your execution.

0:27:03.880 --> 0:27:06.199
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, Well, when the case was over, when the

0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:09.320
<v Speaker 2>prosecution case in the defense case was finished. The court

0:27:09.359 --> 0:27:13.040
<v Speaker 2>reserved judgment to the following day, and we were brought

0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:15.480
<v Speaker 2>back to the prison and to be brought up the

0:27:15.480 --> 0:27:18.880
<v Speaker 2>following day to hear their judgment. When we were convicted

0:27:19.840 --> 0:27:20.600
<v Speaker 2>and so.

0:27:20.320 --> 0:27:21.919
<v Speaker 1>So you had been convicted in that sentence.

0:27:22.240 --> 0:27:23.280
<v Speaker 2>No, I hadn't been convicted.

0:27:23.320 --> 0:27:24.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh, so you had to go You had to go

0:27:24.880 --> 0:27:27.359
<v Speaker 1>back to the prison and wait there, wonder.

0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:29.159
<v Speaker 2>Off the court as to whether they were going to

0:27:29.200 --> 0:27:29.919
<v Speaker 2>convict or not.

0:27:30.720 --> 0:27:31.720
<v Speaker 1>That's a long night.

0:27:31.800 --> 0:27:34.520
<v Speaker 2>And it was. It was pretty clear that they were

0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:36.480
<v Speaker 2>going to convict the other two guys because there was

0:27:36.520 --> 0:27:39.280
<v Speaker 2>evidence against them, but there was no The only evidence

0:27:39.280 --> 0:27:41.760
<v Speaker 2>against me was this the word of this police officer,

0:27:41.800 --> 0:27:45.600
<v Speaker 2>which I had disputed, and plus the fact that the

0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:49.560
<v Speaker 2>other police officer had identified the actual culprit who was

0:27:49.600 --> 0:27:52.919
<v Speaker 2>not me. So when we went up the following day, anyway,

0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:57.000
<v Speaker 2>they convicted me and they sentenced me to death, and

0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:01.040
<v Speaker 2>the sentence went like this. To preside member of the

0:28:01.040 --> 0:28:03.720
<v Speaker 2>court said you should be taken from this court to

0:28:03.760 --> 0:28:06.919
<v Speaker 2>the place in which you were last held. And this

0:28:07.040 --> 0:28:09.320
<v Speaker 2>was now on the twenty seventh of November nineteen eighty

0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:12.199
<v Speaker 2>and on the nineteen day of November and nine and

0:28:12.280 --> 0:28:14.200
<v Speaker 2>the year of our Lord nineteen eighty you should be

0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:17.000
<v Speaker 2>made to suffer debt by execution in the manner prescribed

0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:21.000
<v Speaker 2>by law. And then and you're also sentenced to fifteen

0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:24.840
<v Speaker 2>years imprisonment for the robbery. My inner response at the

0:28:24.840 --> 0:28:28.760
<v Speaker 2>time was, this is crazy. If I'm going to be

0:28:28.800 --> 0:28:32.560
<v Speaker 2>executed in three weeks time, I can't serve the fifteen years.

0:28:33.200 --> 0:28:34.760
<v Speaker 2>And if I'm going to serve the fifteen years, I

0:28:34.800 --> 0:28:37.480
<v Speaker 2>can't be executed three weeks time. That was the way

0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:40.560
<v Speaker 2>my head was around the whole time. And then I

0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:44.240
<v Speaker 2>was taken down underneath the courtroom to the cells. I

0:28:44.280 --> 0:28:46.080
<v Speaker 2>was putting the cell, and then my lawyers come down

0:28:46.120 --> 0:28:48.760
<v Speaker 2>to see me in this alcove that was there, and

0:28:48.880 --> 0:28:50.400
<v Speaker 2>I was brought out to the alcohol to meet with

0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:54.920
<v Speaker 2>my lawyers. But the senior lawyer hadn't yet come. And

0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:57.800
<v Speaker 2>when he came in a few moments later and he

0:28:57.840 --> 0:28:59.880
<v Speaker 2>came up to me, he was weeping. He was crying,

0:29:00.880 --> 0:29:04.760
<v Speaker 2>he was in tears. And I found myself in this

0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:07.320
<v Speaker 2>bizarre situation that I was standing up with my arm

0:29:07.360 --> 0:29:11.479
<v Speaker 2>around his name is Sheamus Egan, the lawyer. My arm

0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:13.760
<v Speaker 2>was around him, and I was saying it's okay, it's okay,

0:29:13.840 --> 0:29:16.320
<v Speaker 2>don't worry, which we haven't appealed, don't worry. And he's

0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:18.280
<v Speaker 2>crying his eyes out, and I think there was a

0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:23.640
<v Speaker 2>this is weird good backwards, this is this is about face. Yeah,

0:29:23.760 --> 0:29:25.840
<v Speaker 2>he should be consoling me and I, you know, whereas

0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:29.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm consolting him. And so I was brought back to

0:29:29.360 --> 0:29:31.400
<v Speaker 2>the prison. Now, when I was brought back to the prison,

0:29:32.040 --> 0:29:35.080
<v Speaker 2>now I'm a sentence I condemned prisoner, right, so I'm

0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:38.920
<v Speaker 2>put in a death cell. And at first actually didn't

0:29:38.920 --> 0:29:40.120
<v Speaker 2>put me in a death cell. They put me in

0:29:40.480 --> 0:29:42.840
<v Speaker 2>an isolation area. And they put me in an ordinary

0:29:42.880 --> 0:29:45.760
<v Speaker 2>cell in an isolation area with two jailers in this

0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:48.720
<v Speaker 2>stale saddle with me. And that night there was no

0:29:48.800 --> 0:29:52.280
<v Speaker 2>sleep because these guys were sitting reading papers, rustling, talking,

0:29:52.360 --> 0:29:54.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I couldn't get to sleep until eventually

0:29:55.080 --> 0:29:56.920
<v Speaker 2>during the night I sat up and I said to him,

0:29:56.920 --> 0:29:58.360
<v Speaker 2>and I said, now listen here to me, you guys,

0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:03.120
<v Speaker 2>the chief has told me that in this situation that

0:30:03.160 --> 0:30:06.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm in, I can have whatever jailer's I want with me.

0:30:07.600 --> 0:30:11.120
<v Speaker 2>And unless you pair be totally quiet, I'm going to

0:30:11.160 --> 0:30:14.560
<v Speaker 2>ask for you every night, and they went, oh jeez,

0:30:14.680 --> 0:30:17.280
<v Speaker 2>don't do that, and they were as quite as lambs,

0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:18.320
<v Speaker 2>and I got through the night.

0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:20.000
<v Speaker 1>But then the follow that was a very good reverse

0:30:20.000 --> 0:30:23.320
<v Speaker 1>psychology there. Yeah. Yeah, well it's almost it's sort of

0:30:23.320 --> 0:30:25.320
<v Speaker 1>like an active rebellion, I guess in a certain way,

0:30:25.320 --> 0:30:29.880
<v Speaker 1>and also and an element of controlling your own situation

0:30:29.960 --> 0:30:31.680
<v Speaker 1>which is completely out of your control.

0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And then I protested the following day and they

0:30:35.360 --> 0:30:38.880
<v Speaker 2>put us into a they created what they called the

0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:42.600
<v Speaker 2>death cell, which was a larger cell, and the three

0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:44.920
<v Speaker 2>condemned prisoners were put in there. And I hadn't bed

0:30:44.960 --> 0:30:45.960
<v Speaker 2>down again in the wall.

0:30:46.160 --> 0:30:49.080
<v Speaker 1>You and the other two the actual bankroppers, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:30:49.360 --> 0:30:51.520
<v Speaker 1>you didn't know until that point, right.

0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:54.440
<v Speaker 2>No, well I knew one of them previously because I

0:30:54.520 --> 0:30:58.240
<v Speaker 2>knew him from drinking, okay, but otherwise I didn't know them.

0:30:58.320 --> 0:31:00.880
<v Speaker 2>And of course it's often asked to me, why didn't

0:31:00.920 --> 0:31:03.960
<v Speaker 2>they say you weren't with them? And the fact of

0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:06.880
<v Speaker 2>the matter is each of them were conducting a defense

0:31:06.920 --> 0:31:10.239
<v Speaker 2>of not guilty. They were pleading not guilty, and if

0:31:10.280 --> 0:31:12.240
<v Speaker 2>they had said that I wasn't with them, that would

0:31:12.320 --> 0:31:15.360
<v Speaker 2>prove that they were guilty. And the charge carried a

0:31:15.440 --> 0:31:17.200
<v Speaker 2>mandatory death sentence.

0:31:17.720 --> 0:31:18.800
<v Speaker 1>So they had nothing to lose.

0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:21.719
<v Speaker 2>They weren't going They were just trying to save their

0:31:21.720 --> 0:31:25.640
<v Speaker 2>own next and I understood that. But anyway, in that

0:31:25.680 --> 0:31:28.840
<v Speaker 2>condemned self that I was in there on the twenty

0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:32.000
<v Speaker 2>seventh of November and about a week before Christmas of

0:31:32.000 --> 0:31:35.360
<v Speaker 2>that year in nineteen eighty, the way the rule was,

0:31:36.720 --> 0:31:38.480
<v Speaker 2>the condemned prisoner wasn't allowed to speak to any of

0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:41.520
<v Speaker 2>the prisoners, and the jailers were told not to speak

0:31:41.520 --> 0:31:46.960
<v Speaker 2>the condemned prisoner for their own protection, because if a jailer,

0:31:47.160 --> 0:31:49.760
<v Speaker 2>like a prison guard, gets to like a condemned prisoner,

0:31:49.880 --> 0:31:51.760
<v Speaker 2>or have respect for a condemned prisoner, it would be

0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:54.640
<v Speaker 2>very difficult for them to participate in cold bloodedly taking

0:31:54.640 --> 0:31:59.320
<v Speaker 2>that person's life, which is logically true. But on this

0:31:59.360 --> 0:32:02.320
<v Speaker 2>particular case, about a week before Christmas, I overheard three

0:32:02.320 --> 0:32:04.720
<v Speaker 2>of the jailers discussing what part they might have to

0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:05.480
<v Speaker 2>play in my hanging.

0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Now.

0:32:06.360 --> 0:32:08.360
<v Speaker 2>They were sitting as cross as I am to you, Jason,

0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:10.400
<v Speaker 2>and they were discussing, this is if I wasn't there,

0:32:11.280 --> 0:32:14.280
<v Speaker 2>as if I wasn't a human being. They had been

0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:17.479
<v Speaker 2>told that two prison officers would have to participate in

0:32:17.520 --> 0:32:20.600
<v Speaker 2>my execution, and they were very concerned to know what

0:32:20.840 --> 0:32:23.000
<v Speaker 2>bonus they would receive for doing this job, because of

0:32:23.000 --> 0:32:26.240
<v Speaker 2>course it was outside of their normal work, and what

0:32:26.440 --> 0:32:28.520
<v Speaker 2>role they would have to play. And the role they

0:32:28.560 --> 0:32:31.040
<v Speaker 2>would have to play, they said, was that when my

0:32:31.120 --> 0:32:33.440
<v Speaker 2>body would go down to the trap door of the gallows,

0:32:33.920 --> 0:32:37.480
<v Speaker 2>there would be two prison officers underneath, and each one

0:32:37.520 --> 0:32:39.400
<v Speaker 2>would have to pull on one of my legs to

0:32:39.440 --> 0:32:40.560
<v Speaker 2>make sure my neck was broken.

0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:44.800
<v Speaker 1>You know, I'm almost never at a loss for words,

0:32:44.800 --> 0:32:47.520
<v Speaker 1>but I don't even know what to say about that.

0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:48.200
<v Speaker 1>That's a whole note.

0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, I didn't know what to say about it either,

0:32:50.040 --> 0:32:53.080
<v Speaker 2>but I was already angry over what they had done

0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:56.520
<v Speaker 2>to me. But this made me enraged, but in a

0:32:56.600 --> 0:32:58.880
<v Speaker 2>funny kind of way, and if it's our kind of way,

0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:04.000
<v Speaker 2>helped me because it forced me to face the reality

0:33:05.360 --> 0:33:08.040
<v Speaker 2>straight in front of me. So I was likely to

0:33:08.080 --> 0:33:11.000
<v Speaker 2>be hanged. How old were you at the time, forty one?

0:33:11.880 --> 0:33:16.520
<v Speaker 2>And facing that reality, to my surprise, I discovered that

0:33:16.600 --> 0:33:20.560
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't afraid to die, But what I was afraid

0:33:20.600 --> 0:33:22.840
<v Speaker 2>of was that I might not be able to die

0:33:22.840 --> 0:33:27.640
<v Speaker 2>with dignity. I was terribly afraid that they might succeed

0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:31.720
<v Speaker 2>in taking away my human dignity, and I determined I

0:33:31.720 --> 0:33:34.880
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have let them do that. Now they had imprisoned

0:33:34.920 --> 0:33:37.640
<v Speaker 2>me physically, but they couldn't imprison my mind, or my

0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:40.640
<v Speaker 2>heart or my spirit. And so I determined that it

0:33:40.680 --> 0:33:43.160
<v Speaker 2>was in those relements on myself I would exist while

0:33:43.160 --> 0:33:44.920
<v Speaker 2>I was in that situation. And that's what I did.

0:33:45.880 --> 0:33:48.080
<v Speaker 1>And the mind, the heart, and the spirit. Yeah, and

0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:53.440
<v Speaker 1>so you came within eleven days of being executed.

0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:55.520
<v Speaker 2>That's correct. Well before that, my lawyer has made an

0:33:55.520 --> 0:33:57.760
<v Speaker 2>application for leave to appeal, which put a stay on

0:33:57.800 --> 0:34:01.440
<v Speaker 2>the execution. But then the appeal court refuse my application

0:34:01.560 --> 0:34:04.480
<v Speaker 2>for leave to appeal, so I got no appeal, and

0:34:04.560 --> 0:34:06.720
<v Speaker 2>they said a new day for my execution, which was

0:34:06.760 --> 0:34:11.040
<v Speaker 2>the eighth of June nineteen eighty one. And about two

0:34:11.040 --> 0:34:14.080
<v Speaker 2>weeks after the new date was set, my lawyer's going

0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:17.560
<v Speaker 2>on to visit me in the prison and they wanted

0:34:17.600 --> 0:34:20.360
<v Speaker 2>me to allow them to put in a plea for

0:34:20.440 --> 0:34:24.799
<v Speaker 2>clemency on my behalf, and I refused. I said no way.

0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:27.680
<v Speaker 2>And the senior counsel, the guy who had been crying

0:34:27.760 --> 0:34:30.319
<v Speaker 2>after the trial, he was in tears again, you know,

0:34:30.760 --> 0:34:33.759
<v Speaker 2>very emotional man, and he said, but they might hang you,

0:34:33.800 --> 0:34:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Peter Well, I said, if they do, it wouldn't be

0:34:36.040 --> 0:34:38.960
<v Speaker 2>the first innocent person they've hanged. But I will not

0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:43.480
<v Speaker 2>plea for clemency for something I didn't do. And I

0:34:43.520 --> 0:34:45.160
<v Speaker 2>actually asked for a piece of paper and I wrote,

0:34:45.200 --> 0:34:47.200
<v Speaker 2>gave them written instructions to that effect, because I was

0:34:47.239 --> 0:34:50.120
<v Speaker 2>afraid they would actually go and do it anyway. Oh.

0:34:50.200 --> 0:34:50.399
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:53.399
<v Speaker 2>The reason they said this was that government cabinet had

0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:57.040
<v Speaker 2>met and discussed whether I would be executed or not

0:34:58.000 --> 0:35:00.600
<v Speaker 2>and couldn't come to an agreement about it. And they

0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:03.160
<v Speaker 2>were concerned that the following week the cabinet was going

0:35:03.160 --> 0:35:06.279
<v Speaker 2>to meet again and the cabinet might decide to execute me.

0:35:07.239 --> 0:35:09.600
<v Speaker 2>So they went away very upset and I went back

0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:12.960
<v Speaker 2>to my cell and the following week when the cabinet met,

0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:16.520
<v Speaker 2>I later learned that the Prime ministers before any discussion

0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:19.919
<v Speaker 2>would happen and said, we're not executing Pringle. It would

0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:24.000
<v Speaker 2>be political suicide. And then they instructed the President to

0:35:24.040 --> 0:35:28.280
<v Speaker 2>commute the sentence. And the President commuted sentence from debt

0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:32.320
<v Speaker 2>to forty years penal servitude without any possibility of parole

0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:34.960
<v Speaker 2>or omission. And I was put out into the general

0:35:35.040 --> 0:35:38.200
<v Speaker 2>prison population where I could talk to people and I

0:35:38.239 --> 0:35:40.160
<v Speaker 2>could exercise the yard.

0:35:40.520 --> 0:35:46.160
<v Speaker 1>So it's almost like a I mean, better than being executed,

0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:48.400
<v Speaker 1>I guess, but not by a whole lot, because essentially

0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:50.120
<v Speaker 1>it's a death sentence. You're forty one years old, You've

0:35:50.120 --> 0:35:52.399
<v Speaker 1>got forty years in prison. You're going to die in prison, right,

0:35:52.480 --> 0:35:52.960
<v Speaker 1>that's right.

0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:55.960
<v Speaker 2>But that's not what happened, no, because at the time

0:35:56.560 --> 0:35:58.839
<v Speaker 2>I knew I had three options. You know, I could

0:35:58.840 --> 0:36:01.680
<v Speaker 2>face the forty years, which wasn't the possibility for me

0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:04.920
<v Speaker 2>at the time. I could kill myself, which at the

0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:08.880
<v Speaker 2>time was a reasonable proposition, not let them refuse, to

0:36:08.880 --> 0:36:11.920
<v Speaker 2>allow them to keep me for forty years. But then

0:36:11.960 --> 0:36:14.200
<v Speaker 2>I realized if I did that, they'd say I had

0:36:14.200 --> 0:36:16.840
<v Speaker 2>done it out of given a remorse. So I couldn't

0:36:16.840 --> 0:36:18.399
<v Speaker 2>allow that. So I determined I was going to try

0:36:18.440 --> 0:36:19.920
<v Speaker 2>and prove my innocence.

0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:23.520
<v Speaker 1>And ultimately you did, yeah, fifteen years later. So let's

0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:25.279
<v Speaker 1>walk through that because I want to get to the

0:36:25.880 --> 0:36:28.439
<v Speaker 1>next phase of your life, which is so extraordinary.

0:36:28.680 --> 0:36:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, I should also tell you that there was no

0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:31.920
<v Speaker 2>law library in the prison.

0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:33.520
<v Speaker 1>So how did you go about proving your innocence?

0:36:33.600 --> 0:36:36.520
<v Speaker 2>I had a friend who worked in the university outside

0:36:36.600 --> 0:36:39.000
<v Speaker 2>and she had access to the law library in the university,

0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:41.960
<v Speaker 2>and I arranged with her to photocopy sections of law

0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:44.480
<v Speaker 2>books and find out which were the best criminal law

0:36:44.520 --> 0:36:47.879
<v Speaker 2>books and constitutional law books and photocopy sections of them.

0:36:48.440 --> 0:36:49.720
<v Speaker 1>You had plenty of time to study.

0:36:49.760 --> 0:36:52.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, then I couldn't study. You see, I left school

0:36:52.120 --> 0:36:54.319
<v Speaker 2>when I was thirteen years of age, and I'd worked

0:36:54.360 --> 0:36:57.359
<v Speaker 2>all my life, and I had no formal education, and

0:36:57.680 --> 0:36:59.640
<v Speaker 2>my anger was such that I just.

0:36:59.600 --> 0:37:02.080
<v Speaker 1>Couldn't the documents understandable.

0:37:02.320 --> 0:37:04.319
<v Speaker 2>So I determined I had to try and learn how

0:37:04.320 --> 0:37:06.440
<v Speaker 2>to relax. So I got a friend to leave me

0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:09.600
<v Speaker 2>in a little book on yoga with illustrations of the postures,

0:37:09.600 --> 0:37:11.680
<v Speaker 2>and I began to teach myself yoga in the cell

0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:15.840
<v Speaker 2>on my own, and teach myself meditation. And as I

0:37:15.960 --> 0:37:19.000
<v Speaker 2>mastered does two disciplines, my anger got less than I

0:37:19.040 --> 0:37:21.440
<v Speaker 2>was able to study. And I spent my time studying.

0:37:21.880 --> 0:37:23.919
<v Speaker 2>And then what happened was other guys in the prison

0:37:23.960 --> 0:37:25.920
<v Speaker 2>would come to me with their documents, with their cases

0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:28.399
<v Speaker 2>and asked me would I look at their cases? And

0:37:29.160 --> 0:37:30.880
<v Speaker 2>I said, yeah, sure, and I would because it was

0:37:30.920 --> 0:37:34.120
<v Speaker 2>helping them. Was also helping me, and so that's what

0:37:34.200 --> 0:37:36.600
<v Speaker 2>I did most of my time in the jail. In

0:37:36.640 --> 0:37:41.200
<v Speaker 2>the prison, I studied law as best I could, and eventually,

0:37:41.239 --> 0:37:43.480
<v Speaker 2>in January of nineteen ninety two, I opened my own

0:37:43.520 --> 0:37:45.640
<v Speaker 2>case on my own behalf in the High Court in

0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:47.879
<v Speaker 2>Dublin under the Irish Constitution. Now I had no money,

0:37:47.880 --> 0:37:50.640
<v Speaker 2>i'd know lawyers, so I had to prepare the case myself,

0:37:50.719 --> 0:37:55.200
<v Speaker 2>file at myself and conduct the case myself, so which

0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:57.200
<v Speaker 2>meant that they had to take me under armed escort

0:37:57.239 --> 0:38:00.960
<v Speaker 2>of military and police up to the court where I

0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:05.080
<v Speaker 2>represented myself against the top lawyers of the state. And

0:38:05.120 --> 0:38:09.160
<v Speaker 2>the case ran from January nineteen ninety two until May

0:38:09.160 --> 0:38:13.840
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen ninety five, when my conviction was overturned. But

0:38:14.120 --> 0:38:16.239
<v Speaker 2>in July of nineteen ninety two I won an order

0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:20.040
<v Speaker 2>for discovery in the High Court. And that's another I'll

0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:23.520
<v Speaker 2>tell you. There's reams to this story that it's kind

0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:24.880
<v Speaker 2>of important to say this one to you.

0:38:26.760 --> 0:38:27.279
<v Speaker 1>One of the.

0:38:27.200 --> 0:38:30.560
<v Speaker 2>Cars used in the crime had been stolen in Galway

0:38:31.520 --> 0:38:34.560
<v Speaker 2>on the second of July. The crime happened the seventh.

0:38:34.600 --> 0:38:37.960
<v Speaker 2>It was stolen on the second of July between eleven

0:38:38.560 --> 0:38:42.000
<v Speaker 2>PM and eleven forty five pm from the car park

0:38:42.040 --> 0:38:46.040
<v Speaker 2>of a hotel. Right, and the evidence of the stealing

0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:48.799
<v Speaker 2>of that car was allowed into the trial because at

0:38:48.880 --> 0:38:52.359
<v Speaker 2>court ruled that the stealing of the car formed part

0:38:52.400 --> 0:38:55.160
<v Speaker 2>of the rest yestay of the offense, which meant that

0:38:55.200 --> 0:38:59.600
<v Speaker 2>the person who stole the car had done the killing. Right. Okay,

0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:03.160
<v Speaker 2>But on the date of the car of stolen. At

0:39:03.160 --> 0:39:05.279
<v Speaker 2>the time the car of stolen, I was delivering four

0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:09.239
<v Speaker 2>thousand concrete blocks on the Arden Islands with fifty more

0:39:09.280 --> 0:39:14.360
<v Speaker 2>or more witnesses there. Now, I delivered the concrete blocker.

0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:18.080
<v Speaker 2>But five years after I had been I was imprisoned.

0:39:18.760 --> 0:39:20.759
<v Speaker 2>I got a letter from my former boss, the guy

0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:22.640
<v Speaker 2>who owned a little company that owned the boat that

0:39:22.680 --> 0:39:26.239
<v Speaker 2>I was skippering, asking me if i'd been paid for

0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:29.160
<v Speaker 2>the delivery and for the blocks to the value of

0:39:29.200 --> 0:39:31.719
<v Speaker 2>six hundred pounds, which I didn't know about because that

0:39:31.880 --> 0:39:33.600
<v Speaker 2>wasn't my role. My role was simply to be the

0:39:33.600 --> 0:39:35.839
<v Speaker 2>skipper to take the cargo out, and I didn't even

0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:38.640
<v Speaker 2>know what a cost. I wrote back and told him that,

0:39:38.680 --> 0:39:41.000
<v Speaker 2>and he said, no, we believe you, We understand that.

0:39:41.080 --> 0:39:44.160
<v Speaker 2>But he said, the man that you delivered to has

0:39:44.200 --> 0:39:47.279
<v Speaker 2>refused to pay his bill, and five years later, when

0:39:47.280 --> 0:39:49.960
<v Speaker 2>they threatened court action to get the money, he told

0:39:49.960 --> 0:39:52.880
<v Speaker 2>them that he had paid me the money because I'm imprisoned.

0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:56.640
<v Speaker 2>You see, I'm in prison doing forty years for murderer

0:39:57.000 --> 0:39:58.680
<v Speaker 2>catherin wor Than now robbery. So he was going to

0:39:58.680 --> 0:40:01.600
<v Speaker 2>blame me. So I wrote him out of a letter

0:40:01.680 --> 0:40:03.799
<v Speaker 2>saying that of course I'd never done it. And when

0:40:03.800 --> 0:40:06.240
<v Speaker 2>the case came for court, the man never appeared in court,

0:40:06.640 --> 0:40:09.640
<v Speaker 2>and the court ruled against him and accepted my account,

0:40:10.040 --> 0:40:12.319
<v Speaker 2>and the matter was finished. But I went into the

0:40:12.320 --> 0:40:15.360
<v Speaker 2>book of evidence, and I saw that my boss supposedly

0:40:15.400 --> 0:40:17.120
<v Speaker 2>had made a statement in the book of evidence saying

0:40:17.160 --> 0:40:19.400
<v Speaker 2>I sailed at eleven o'clock in the morning and come

0:40:19.440 --> 0:40:22.439
<v Speaker 2>back at eleven o'clock that night, which would have meant

0:40:22.480 --> 0:40:25.680
<v Speaker 2>I had the possibility of steed in the car okay,

0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:28.440
<v Speaker 2>whereas I sailed at four o'clock in the afternoon and

0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:30.040
<v Speaker 2>didn't get back to go with it till two am

0:40:30.080 --> 0:40:33.200
<v Speaker 2>the following morning. Now I knew he had a computer,

0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:35.000
<v Speaker 2>and I knew as a charge of the acountant he

0:40:35.040 --> 0:40:36.680
<v Speaker 2>kept all records. So I wrote to him and said,

0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:38.520
<v Speaker 2>if you a record of the sailing on that day,

0:40:39.400 --> 0:40:41.480
<v Speaker 2>and he said he had you sailed at four o'clock

0:40:41.520 --> 0:40:43.239
<v Speaker 2>in the afternoon and you got back at two am

0:40:43.280 --> 0:40:45.680
<v Speaker 2>in the morning. So I wrote to him again, I said, well,

0:40:45.719 --> 0:40:47.560
<v Speaker 2>then tell me this, Why did you make this statement,

0:40:48.200 --> 0:40:49.120
<v Speaker 2>this false statement?

0:40:49.239 --> 0:40:49.759
<v Speaker 1>What do you say?

0:40:50.480 --> 0:40:51.520
<v Speaker 2>I never made a statement.

0:40:52.560 --> 0:40:53.560
<v Speaker 1>Oh, they made it up.

0:40:53.719 --> 0:40:54.279
<v Speaker 2>They made it up.

0:40:54.320 --> 0:40:56.520
<v Speaker 1>He never made a stake your conviction.

0:40:56.360 --> 0:40:58.719
<v Speaker 2>To try and keet me convicted. He never made a

0:40:58.760 --> 0:41:01.360
<v Speaker 2>statement and he was never even asked to make a statement.

0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:02.080
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:41:02.320 --> 0:41:05.680
<v Speaker 2>And so later, when I got a lot more discovery,

0:41:05.680 --> 0:41:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I discovered there were actually twenty three prosecution witnesses in

0:41:09.239 --> 0:41:11.640
<v Speaker 2>the case had never made any statements, although there were

0:41:11.640 --> 0:41:15.080
<v Speaker 2>statements in the book of evidence attributed to them, and

0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:17.000
<v Speaker 2>had he He told me that if he had been

0:41:17.000 --> 0:41:18.680
<v Speaker 2>asked to make a statement, he would have told the truth.

0:41:19.560 --> 0:41:21.560
<v Speaker 2>And had he been asked to make a statement and

0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:24.880
<v Speaker 2>told the truth, I couldn't have been convicted. So I

0:41:24.880 --> 0:41:26.680
<v Speaker 2>asked him, wuld he make an affidavit? Would he swear

0:41:26.680 --> 0:41:28.479
<v Speaker 2>an Affidavid? At that and I drafted this and AFFI

0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:30.759
<v Speaker 2>David sent it out to him. He got it notorized

0:41:30.800 --> 0:41:32.360
<v Speaker 2>and swore and sent it back in to me. So

0:41:32.440 --> 0:41:34.480
<v Speaker 2>when I appeared in the court and the High Court

0:41:34.520 --> 0:41:36.960
<v Speaker 2>and looked for an order for discovery, and the lawyers

0:41:36.960 --> 0:41:38.600
<v Speaker 2>for the state were saying, ah, he's only fishing. He

0:41:38.600 --> 0:41:40.680
<v Speaker 2>hasn't got anything. I said, yes, I have, and I

0:41:40.800 --> 0:41:44.160
<v Speaker 2>produced two copies of this affidavi and I said, I

0:41:44.200 --> 0:41:47.160
<v Speaker 2>have here the sworn affidavit of a prosecution witness stating

0:41:47.480 --> 0:41:49.440
<v Speaker 2>clearly that he not only did he not make a

0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:51.879
<v Speaker 2>statement attributed to him, but he was never even asked

0:41:51.920 --> 0:41:53.239
<v Speaker 2>to make a statement. And I offered it to the

0:41:53.280 --> 0:41:56.400
<v Speaker 2>court and the judge wuldn't accept And I offered it

0:41:56.760 --> 0:41:59.719
<v Speaker 2>the state lawyers and they wouldn't accept it, because of

0:41:59.719 --> 0:42:01.799
<v Speaker 2>course they'd accepted it, they would have had to deal

0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:02.160
<v Speaker 2>with it.

0:42:02.680 --> 0:42:04.239
<v Speaker 1>But wouldn't the judge want to deal with it?

0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:06.400
<v Speaker 2>You would think, no, no, no, I don't forget. He

0:42:06.480 --> 0:42:08.680
<v Speaker 2>wasn't being I mean, he was looking at me as

0:42:08.680 --> 0:42:09.760
<v Speaker 2>if I was a piece of dirt.

0:42:20.560 --> 0:42:21.479
<v Speaker 1>So what happened there?

0:42:22.400 --> 0:42:24.960
<v Speaker 2>So I won my order for discovery? And then when

0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:27.239
<v Speaker 2>I got my order for discovery, didn't I get a

0:42:27.239 --> 0:42:30.280
<v Speaker 2>photocopy of the notebook off the detective who had claimed

0:42:30.280 --> 0:42:33.600
<v Speaker 2>I had spoken those words in a particular period of interrogation,

0:42:34.120 --> 0:42:35.800
<v Speaker 2>and he has warned us on notes and that he

0:42:35.840 --> 0:42:39.000
<v Speaker 2>had recorded the interrogation and recorded these words. And when

0:42:39.000 --> 0:42:40.879
<v Speaker 2>I got his notebook, I saw in the notebook it's

0:42:40.920 --> 0:42:44.720
<v Speaker 2>very clear he wrote the words in before the period

0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:46.520
<v Speaker 2>of interrogation in which he claimed.

0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:49.560
<v Speaker 1>I said, yeah, that's tricky.

0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:52.960
<v Speaker 2>Well there's nothing against me, and they decided this was

0:42:53.120 --> 0:42:53.759
<v Speaker 2>what they're going to do.

0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:58.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's a very organized, it's very insidious, absolute,

0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:02.840
<v Speaker 1>very coordinated. I mean, the lengths that they went to

0:43:02.200 --> 0:43:06.640
<v Speaker 1>to get the conviction, to protect the conviction, to basically

0:43:06.800 --> 0:43:10.680
<v Speaker 1>run rough shot over the truth are extraordinary to still

0:43:10.680 --> 0:43:11.000
<v Speaker 1>at it.

0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:12.440
<v Speaker 2>By the way, which I'll tell you about as we

0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:17.160
<v Speaker 2>get on through this. But in January of nineteen ninety four,

0:43:17.400 --> 0:43:19.640
<v Speaker 2>a human rights lawyer offered me his help. When I

0:43:19.680 --> 0:43:21.440
<v Speaker 2>took it, we got a legal team, we went to

0:43:21.440 --> 0:43:23.920
<v Speaker 2>the Court of Criminal Appeal on the new legislation, and

0:43:23.960 --> 0:43:26.680
<v Speaker 2>the case ran from nineteen ninety four to nineteen ninety five.

0:43:27.520 --> 0:43:30.680
<v Speaker 2>And the police officer who had lied to get me

0:43:30.719 --> 0:43:34.520
<v Speaker 2>convicted was now a retired detective superintendent. He had been

0:43:34.520 --> 0:43:37.040
<v Speaker 2>promoted up to the top. By the way, the cops

0:43:37.160 --> 0:43:40.719
<v Speaker 2>who lied in the trial were all promoted, and the

0:43:40.760 --> 0:43:43.239
<v Speaker 2>cop who saved my life and who refused to lie

0:43:43.239 --> 0:43:45.160
<v Speaker 2>in the trial, was never promoted.

0:43:46.120 --> 0:43:47.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, I am I not surprised. I mean, this is

0:43:48.040 --> 0:43:52.840
<v Speaker 1>such a web of deceased absolutely lies and bad actors

0:43:52.840 --> 0:43:57.080
<v Speaker 1>and everything else. So your convictions thrown out, your freed right,

0:43:57.680 --> 0:43:59.759
<v Speaker 1>And then you told me a great story about your

0:43:59.760 --> 0:44:03.040
<v Speaker 1>first stay on the outside, or your first was the

0:44:03.040 --> 0:44:05.560
<v Speaker 1>first thing you did when you got out.

0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:10.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, when I was released out of the special Court,

0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:14.800
<v Speaker 2>out on the street, I was met with a plethora

0:44:14.920 --> 0:44:18.319
<v Speaker 2>of media people with microphones and cameras and alls took

0:44:18.400 --> 0:44:22.640
<v Speaker 2>my face, strong questions at me, and I didn't have

0:44:22.719 --> 0:44:26.680
<v Speaker 2>time to sort of realize that I was free, if

0:44:26.719 --> 0:44:28.120
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. I didn't have time to

0:44:28.280 --> 0:44:31.560
<v Speaker 2>let it sink in. And then I was taken by

0:44:31.600 --> 0:44:34.439
<v Speaker 2>my lawyer to the TV station, the national TV station

0:44:34.520 --> 0:44:37.240
<v Speaker 2>where I was. We were interviewed for the news that evening,

0:44:37.560 --> 0:44:41.120
<v Speaker 2>and then my friends organized a party. A bunch of

0:44:41.120 --> 0:44:43.600
<v Speaker 2>people had set up a defense committee for me outside

0:44:43.960 --> 0:44:45.800
<v Speaker 2>and they took a floor of a pub and organized

0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:47.480
<v Speaker 2>a big party. And there was a huge, big party

0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:50.080
<v Speaker 2>going on, and we went to that and that went

0:44:50.120 --> 0:44:54.160
<v Speaker 2>on all that evening, and everybody got drunk except me.

0:44:54.320 --> 0:44:57.960
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't drinking, and I stayed with two friends that

0:44:58.120 --> 0:45:01.520
<v Speaker 2>night in their house, and the following morning, when I

0:45:01.560 --> 0:45:04.480
<v Speaker 2>got up, I was the first one up. I went

0:45:04.520 --> 0:45:07.920
<v Speaker 2>down to the kitchen and I went out to the

0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:12.200
<v Speaker 2>back garden, which was a lovely long back garden, and

0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:15.120
<v Speaker 2>the sunshine was a beautiful day. There were no big

0:45:15.160 --> 0:45:18.560
<v Speaker 2>walls around me. There was flowers and trees and bushes.

0:45:18.600 --> 0:45:21.040
<v Speaker 2>And I walked down the garden and at the bottom

0:45:21.080 --> 0:45:23.840
<v Speaker 2>of the garden there was a big old apple tree,

0:45:24.200 --> 0:45:27.240
<v Speaker 2>really big old narl. The other way they'd become gnarled

0:45:27.440 --> 0:45:31.320
<v Speaker 2>apple tree. And I could hear in the distance the sound,

0:45:31.320 --> 0:45:34.680
<v Speaker 2>the background noises of the city. But I went to

0:45:34.719 --> 0:45:37.200
<v Speaker 2>this tree, and I stood with the tree, and I

0:45:37.239 --> 0:45:39.520
<v Speaker 2>realized that and all the time I had been in jail,

0:45:39.600 --> 0:45:41.480
<v Speaker 2>and all the time the trouble I had gone through,

0:45:41.960 --> 0:45:44.919
<v Speaker 2>this tree was growing in this garden on its own,

0:45:46.040 --> 0:45:49.200
<v Speaker 2>with nature, producing its fruit and shedding its leaves every year,

0:45:49.440 --> 0:45:54.279
<v Speaker 2>year and year out, doing its own thing, and immune

0:45:54.360 --> 0:45:59.960
<v Speaker 2>from the corruption, the greed, the rat race, the injustice,

0:46:00.120 --> 0:46:04.200
<v Speaker 2>and everything else. And I put my arms around the

0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:07.920
<v Speaker 2>trunk of the tree, and I wept, and I released

0:46:10.200 --> 0:46:12.960
<v Speaker 2>And that's when I knew for certain I was free.

0:46:14.120 --> 0:46:16.160
<v Speaker 2>That was in May nineteen ninety five.

0:46:16.239 --> 0:46:20.240
<v Speaker 1>So that's twenty one years ago. And then another extraordinary

0:46:20.280 --> 0:46:22.799
<v Speaker 1>thing happened in your life, right, which is something I'm

0:46:22.960 --> 0:46:26.960
<v Speaker 1>very well aware of. Well, something or someone I should say, right.

0:46:27.239 --> 0:46:29.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Well, three years after I got out. And it

0:46:29.920 --> 0:46:32.680
<v Speaker 2>was difficult times for a while after I got out,

0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:35.040
<v Speaker 2>because it's very difficult to fit into society again when

0:46:35.040 --> 0:46:38.080
<v Speaker 2>you're locked up. But I had yoga meditation and I

0:46:38.239 --> 0:46:40.680
<v Speaker 2>used that and a little bit of prayer. And three

0:46:40.719 --> 0:46:43.919
<v Speaker 2>years after, one day I got a phone call from

0:46:43.920 --> 0:46:46.319
<v Speaker 2>an American lady who told me her name was Sunny

0:46:46.440 --> 0:46:49.480
<v Speaker 2>Jacob's and she told me she was speaking at a

0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:52.640
<v Speaker 2>meeting three days later where I was, and invited me

0:46:52.680 --> 0:46:54.000
<v Speaker 2>to come and hear talk. And I said, what are

0:46:54.040 --> 0:46:55.480
<v Speaker 2>you going to talk about? And she said the death

0:46:55.480 --> 0:46:57.359
<v Speaker 2>penalty and I said, yes, I'm interested in that. I'll

0:46:57.400 --> 0:46:59.839
<v Speaker 2>come along. And I brought two friends and I went

0:47:00.120 --> 0:47:03.239
<v Speaker 2>long and it was a room above a public course.

0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:05.319
<v Speaker 2>At one o'clock on a Friday, I went up to

0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:08.000
<v Speaker 2>the room. There was nobody there, and after a few

0:47:08.000 --> 0:47:10.120
<v Speaker 2>minutes the door opened to the fire side of the room,

0:47:10.360 --> 0:47:13.480
<v Speaker 2>and this little woman walked in and I walked over

0:47:13.520 --> 0:47:16.120
<v Speaker 2>to her and I said, you must be Sonny Jacobs,

0:47:17.160 --> 0:47:20.200
<v Speaker 2>and she looked up at me with a big smile,

0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:23.640
<v Speaker 2>and that's how we met. And I listened to her

0:47:23.719 --> 0:47:27.839
<v Speaker 2>story and I was hugely emotionally upset by listening to it,

0:47:28.480 --> 0:47:30.279
<v Speaker 2>and I knew I had to talk with her. And

0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:32.080
<v Speaker 2>I said to her, I need to talk with you,

0:47:32.160 --> 0:47:33.520
<v Speaker 2>and she said, got to be good. I need to

0:47:33.520 --> 0:47:36.920
<v Speaker 2>talk with you too. But she said, I'm leaving in

0:47:36.920 --> 0:47:40.799
<v Speaker 2>an hour. This was on a Friday, So where are

0:47:40.840 --> 0:47:43.000
<v Speaker 2>you going? She says, I have to go to Cork

0:47:43.040 --> 0:47:45.360
<v Speaker 2>for the annual General Meeting of Amnesty into an Irish

0:47:45.400 --> 0:47:47.640
<v Speaker 2>section of Amnist International. I should be there at eight

0:47:47.640 --> 0:47:50.759
<v Speaker 2>o'clock tomorrow evening. I said, stay over with me, I said,

0:47:50.800 --> 0:47:52.279
<v Speaker 2>and I guarantee I'll get you down there.

0:47:53.320 --> 0:47:55.160
<v Speaker 1>And so she went how far away was Cork?

0:47:56.200 --> 0:48:01.120
<v Speaker 2>Four hours strive And she went to Mary Lawler, who

0:48:01.160 --> 0:48:04.120
<v Speaker 2>was the General Secretary of Amnesty at the time, and

0:48:04.239 --> 0:48:06.800
<v Speaker 2>asked Mary, because of course she was unsure about whether

0:48:06.880 --> 0:48:09.400
<v Speaker 2>she should go with a stranger in the strange country.

0:48:10.320 --> 0:48:13.120
<v Speaker 2>And Mary knew me and knew my story, and she said, oh,

0:48:13.160 --> 0:48:15.360
<v Speaker 2>that's wonderful. Thank you, Peter. Yeah, yeah, great. So we

0:48:15.440 --> 0:48:19.280
<v Speaker 2>transferred Sunday's case from her car into my audio loppy

0:48:19.680 --> 0:48:21.080
<v Speaker 2>and she stayed in my house that night. In the

0:48:21.120 --> 0:48:23.560
<v Speaker 2>following morning, we went to my friend on the Cafe

0:48:23.640 --> 0:48:25.560
<v Speaker 2>and go away. We went to his place for breakfast.

0:48:25.600 --> 0:48:28.640
<v Speaker 2>He asked us to come for breakfast and he said

0:48:28.680 --> 0:48:31.000
<v Speaker 2>to me, are you driving her down the Cork? And

0:48:31.040 --> 0:48:33.160
<v Speaker 2>I said yeah. He said, you can't go drive somebody

0:48:33.160 --> 0:48:34.480
<v Speaker 2>to Cork and dot your lopy. He said here, and

0:48:34.480 --> 0:48:35.759
<v Speaker 2>he reached his hand in his pocket and he gave

0:48:35.760 --> 0:48:38.920
<v Speaker 2>me the keys of his Mercedes. He said, just get

0:48:38.960 --> 0:48:42.040
<v Speaker 2>it back to me tomorrow morning. So I drove Sunny

0:48:42.120 --> 0:48:44.800
<v Speaker 2>down the Cork in the Mercedes. We traveled in style.

0:48:45.440 --> 0:48:48.600
<v Speaker 2>And as we were on the car fairly crossing the river,

0:48:48.640 --> 0:48:52.040
<v Speaker 2>Shannon eating a pack lunch which he'd made up for us,

0:48:52.880 --> 0:48:55.080
<v Speaker 2>she said to me, what's your interest in all of this?

0:48:55.920 --> 0:48:57.760
<v Speaker 2>And I told her that I too had been wrongly

0:48:57.760 --> 0:49:00.799
<v Speaker 2>convicted and sentenced to death. And she said, you got

0:49:00.840 --> 0:49:03.319
<v Speaker 2>through very well. She said, how did you get through

0:49:03.360 --> 0:49:06.840
<v Speaker 2>so easy so well? And I said, yoga and meditation.

0:49:07.080 --> 0:49:08.399
<v Speaker 1>First of all. By the way, this is a hell

0:49:08.400 --> 0:49:09.799
<v Speaker 1>of a first date, I got to give it up

0:49:09.800 --> 0:49:11.000
<v Speaker 1>to you for a guy who had been in prison

0:49:11.080 --> 0:49:14.440
<v Speaker 1>for fifteen years, you got game, okay, And so so

0:49:14.520 --> 0:49:17.239
<v Speaker 1>that yeah, it's extraordinary, as I keep using that word

0:49:17.239 --> 0:49:19.560
<v Speaker 1>because I don't know what else other words to use, the

0:49:19.640 --> 0:49:22.320
<v Speaker 1>fact that Sonny, of course, had also been sentenced to

0:49:22.360 --> 0:49:26.440
<v Speaker 1>that for a similar crime that happened a continent away,

0:49:27.280 --> 0:49:30.920
<v Speaker 1>five six thousand miles from where you were charged and convicted.

0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:34.360
<v Speaker 1>She was charged and convicted. Both of you were actually

0:49:34.520 --> 0:49:38.520
<v Speaker 1>and absolutely innocent, and you served similar amounts of time

0:49:38.520 --> 0:49:41.239
<v Speaker 1>in prison. She actually a little bit longer than you,

0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:44.759
<v Speaker 1>and both of you had more in common than that, right,

0:49:45.080 --> 0:49:48.560
<v Speaker 1>Both were were committed to a lifestyle of meditation and yoga.

0:49:48.800 --> 0:49:52.920
<v Speaker 1>You're vegetarians, right. So it's sort of the universe organizing

0:49:52.960 --> 0:49:54.359
<v Speaker 1>itself in a way that is.

0:49:54.640 --> 0:49:56.359
<v Speaker 2>It was inevitable that we should come together.

0:49:56.600 --> 0:49:59.759
<v Speaker 1>I think about serendipity as synchronisy what everyone calls metaphysics.

0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:02.680
<v Speaker 1>And you drive her there, We drive her there, and.

0:50:04.360 --> 0:50:07.080
<v Speaker 2>Now Amnesty had got us two rooms in a hotel

0:50:07.120 --> 0:50:09.839
<v Speaker 2>across from the hotel where the convention was, and each

0:50:09.840 --> 0:50:13.439
<v Speaker 2>of us lay on a bed separately, and for three

0:50:13.440 --> 0:50:17.319
<v Speaker 2>and a half hours we discussed forgiveness. Well, that was

0:50:17.360 --> 0:50:21.680
<v Speaker 2>the key forgiveness. And then I brought her back to

0:50:21.719 --> 0:50:23.960
<v Speaker 2>her room and she said to me, would I call

0:50:24.040 --> 0:50:25.680
<v Speaker 2>her when as I leave at six in the morning,

0:50:25.760 --> 0:50:27.359
<v Speaker 2>Would I call her in the morning. I said yes,

0:50:27.840 --> 0:50:29.360
<v Speaker 2>So on the morning, I knocked her door and she

0:50:29.400 --> 0:50:31.319
<v Speaker 2>got up and we said goodbye to each other and

0:50:31.360 --> 0:50:34.640
<v Speaker 2>we'd keep in touch. And I had got my friend's

0:50:34.680 --> 0:50:37.440
<v Speaker 2>car and dropped back to go away.

0:50:37.480 --> 0:50:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Did you guys kiss? Was there any physical interaction? Hold hands? Exactly?

0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:44.480
<v Speaker 4>What happened was.

0:50:43.880 --> 0:50:44.840
<v Speaker 1>A perfect gentleman.

0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:49.040
<v Speaker 4>He said to me, I don't want you to think

0:50:49.160 --> 0:50:52.719
<v Speaker 4>I'm not attracted to you, but I'm in a kind

0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:56.799
<v Speaker 4>of a relationship, and I like to try to leave

0:50:56.840 --> 0:51:01.000
<v Speaker 4>an honorable life. And that's what clicked in my mind,

0:51:01.040 --> 0:51:03.200
<v Speaker 4>because at that point in my life I had no

0:51:03.440 --> 0:51:08.520
<v Speaker 4>time for bs, you know, and so that impressed me.

0:51:09.040 --> 0:51:11.320
<v Speaker 1>How long have you been out of prison? By this time,

0:51:11.800 --> 0:51:15.600
<v Speaker 1>I was out three years? It's almost yeah, three years

0:51:15.640 --> 0:51:16.160
<v Speaker 1>you were out.

0:51:16.560 --> 0:51:17.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh he was out eight.

0:51:17.880 --> 0:51:19.960
<v Speaker 1>Right, so you've been out sex and you've been three Okay, fine,

0:51:20.080 --> 0:51:20.480
<v Speaker 1>that's nothing.

0:51:20.640 --> 0:51:22.319
<v Speaker 2>But we joke and say, you see that she's five

0:51:22.400 --> 0:51:25.080
<v Speaker 2>years older than me. Right, I got it five years

0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:26.040
<v Speaker 2>out before.

0:51:25.719 --> 0:51:28.520
<v Speaker 1>Me and anyway, okay, so then it was what happened.

0:51:28.560 --> 0:51:31.120
<v Speaker 4>And then we hadn't made any arrangement, but when he

0:51:31.440 --> 0:51:33.400
<v Speaker 4>got home he called me and that's when I knew

0:51:33.800 --> 0:51:35.399
<v Speaker 4>that it had clicked for him too.

0:51:36.320 --> 0:51:41.680
<v Speaker 1>So then you ultimately were married, which is my favorite

0:51:41.719 --> 0:51:43.040
<v Speaker 1>part of the story actually.

0:51:43.600 --> 0:51:46.600
<v Speaker 2>But what we'd actually did was about ten years ago.

0:51:47.320 --> 0:51:50.480
<v Speaker 2>We decided that we were going to exchange vows for

0:51:50.520 --> 0:51:54.520
<v Speaker 2>each other, and we bought two clatter rings and on

0:51:54.560 --> 0:51:56.600
<v Speaker 2>the winter, so it's the shortest day of the year,

0:51:56.600 --> 0:51:57.960
<v Speaker 2>because then he said we should do it on the

0:51:57.960 --> 0:51:59.480
<v Speaker 2>shortest stay of the year because we don't want to

0:51:59.480 --> 0:52:02.080
<v Speaker 2>have a long and ag we gave rings to each

0:52:02.080 --> 0:52:04.480
<v Speaker 2>other in the morning, and we were engaged in the evening,

0:52:04.920 --> 0:52:07.600
<v Speaker 2>and we went down to the seashore with our dogs

0:52:08.239 --> 0:52:11.560
<v Speaker 2>and we exchanged vows on the seashore in the evening time,

0:52:11.840 --> 0:52:13.480
<v Speaker 2>and the sun and the moon were both in the

0:52:13.560 --> 0:52:16.719
<v Speaker 2>sky at the same time, which we thought was very auspicious.

0:52:16.800 --> 0:52:19.960
<v Speaker 2>And then what happened. We were having some difficulty when

0:52:19.960 --> 0:52:22.719
<v Speaker 2>we'd leave the country coming back because we're given to

0:52:22.800 --> 0:52:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Sonny Hassel about whether she could come back into the

0:52:24.960 --> 0:52:27.400
<v Speaker 2>country or not. And this was because she was with me,

0:52:27.520 --> 0:52:30.000
<v Speaker 2>you see. So we decided we were going to get married.

0:52:30.160 --> 0:52:34.000
<v Speaker 2>But getting married in Ireland is much more bureaucratically difficult

0:52:34.040 --> 0:52:37.000
<v Speaker 2>than it is in America. And we found out that

0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:39.040
<v Speaker 2>you could apply in New York and get a license

0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:43.520
<v Speaker 2>and get married the next day. But we had no

0:52:43.600 --> 0:52:47.840
<v Speaker 2>money to come to New York. So now at that stage,

0:52:47.960 --> 0:52:51.920
<v Speaker 2>by the way, we were existing on my state pension,

0:52:51.920 --> 0:52:55.960
<v Speaker 2>which is like very small. So the theater that had

0:52:55.960 --> 0:52:59.640
<v Speaker 2>put on The Exonerated the film called contacted us. They

0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:02.680
<v Speaker 2>were doing producers weekend and they wanted us to come

0:53:02.680 --> 0:53:06.480
<v Speaker 2>and speak at two dinners that were hosting, and Sonny says, oh,

0:53:06.520 --> 0:53:08.000
<v Speaker 2>we wanted to go to New York to get married,

0:53:08.000 --> 0:53:09.439
<v Speaker 2>and they said, you're going to get married in New York,

0:53:09.440 --> 0:53:12.200
<v Speaker 2>we'll host the wedding. So they hosted the wedding. They

0:53:12.239 --> 0:53:14.520
<v Speaker 2>brought us to New York and they pull us open

0:53:14.560 --> 0:53:17.560
<v Speaker 2>a hotel and they hosted the wedding. So there were

0:53:17.560 --> 0:53:19.439
<v Speaker 2>about one hundred and twenty one hundred and thirty people

0:53:19.480 --> 0:53:21.439
<v Speaker 2>at the wedding. We only knew six or seven of them,

0:53:22.400 --> 0:53:25.080
<v Speaker 2>and none of our family were there. It was so funny,

0:53:25.160 --> 0:53:30.440
<v Speaker 2>was hilarious. Brookshields, Amy Irving, Marlo Thomas, and Stockard Channing

0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:33.160
<v Speaker 2>were at the wedding. They were four people actresses who

0:53:33.160 --> 0:53:34.200
<v Speaker 2>had played Sonny.

0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:39.360
<v Speaker 1>In the play The Extraordinary Play. Yeah, and Sunny's story

0:53:39.400 --> 0:53:42.360
<v Speaker 1>is one of six that are profiled in this remarkable

0:53:42.400 --> 0:53:46.400
<v Speaker 1>play in which so many incredible actresses have portrayed you.

0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:48.640
<v Speaker 1>That's right, And so they showed up at the wedding.

0:53:48.680 --> 0:53:51.080
<v Speaker 1>So you have this sort of celebrity wedding which adds

0:53:51.120 --> 0:53:53.480
<v Speaker 1>a certain element of strangeness to the whole thing.

0:53:53.600 --> 0:53:55.560
<v Speaker 2>And the best part of it was that when Sonny

0:53:55.640 --> 0:53:58.120
<v Speaker 2>was asked do you take this man to be your

0:53:58.160 --> 0:54:03.279
<v Speaker 2>awfully weathered husband, the four actresses step forward and said,

0:54:03.320 --> 0:54:04.279
<v Speaker 2>with Sonny.

0:54:04.000 --> 0:54:09.279
<v Speaker 1>We do hilarious, that's amazing, Oh my god, funny. So

0:54:09.360 --> 0:54:12.040
<v Speaker 1>you may actually be married to five women at this point.

0:54:12.160 --> 0:54:15.719
<v Speaker 1>Hard to say, and I'm not judging you. I'm just saying,

0:54:15.440 --> 0:54:17.680
<v Speaker 1>so you might want to have somebody look into it.

0:54:18.320 --> 0:54:23.200
<v Speaker 1>So there's a wonderful announcement if you google Peter Pringle

0:54:23.200 --> 0:54:26.560
<v Speaker 1>and Sonny Jacob's wedding. My belief I can't prove this

0:54:26.680 --> 0:54:29.160
<v Speaker 1>is that you're the only two Death Row exgneries who

0:54:29.160 --> 0:54:33.919
<v Speaker 1>have ever been married after exonerations, because there are very

0:54:33.960 --> 0:54:37.640
<v Speaker 1>few women who've been sentenced to death and even many

0:54:37.680 --> 0:54:42.040
<v Speaker 1>fewer who have been exonerated, So you really hit the jackpot.

0:54:42.280 --> 0:54:45.280
<v Speaker 1>And so I do want to put in a plug

0:54:45.440 --> 0:54:51.719
<v Speaker 1>because now Sonny and Peter operate a phenomenal organization called

0:54:51.719 --> 0:54:55.880
<v Speaker 1>the Sunny Sanctuary and it is sort of a haven

0:54:56.320 --> 0:54:58.760
<v Speaker 1>or whatever you want to call it where they bring

0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:03.000
<v Speaker 1>a new league exoner rated people over to the coast

0:55:03.000 --> 0:55:06.960
<v Speaker 1>of Ireland and help them reintegrate, right this is probably

0:55:07.000 --> 0:55:09.600
<v Speaker 1>the best word, and get their get their lives back,

0:55:09.640 --> 0:55:12.120
<v Speaker 1>and get their their spirits back, so to speak.

0:55:12.200 --> 0:55:15.000
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, it's kind of healing from the inside out.

0:55:15.360 --> 0:55:18.960
<v Speaker 2>We helped them to release the anger and busness that

0:55:18.960 --> 0:55:20.880
<v Speaker 2>they carry over what was done to them.

0:55:21.239 --> 0:55:23.960
<v Speaker 1>And paint the picture of the Sunny Sanctuary for people

0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:26.000
<v Speaker 1>out there who can't really visualize.

0:55:26.080 --> 0:55:31.239
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well we managed. We managed to rent a three

0:55:31.280 --> 0:55:35.080
<v Speaker 2>bedroom house on fourteen acres on the side of a

0:55:35.160 --> 0:55:38.160
<v Speaker 2>hill overlooking a lake and there's there's hazel woods down

0:55:38.200 --> 0:55:41.960
<v Speaker 2>to the lake and each bedroom is on sweet so

0:55:42.000 --> 0:55:45.680
<v Speaker 2>there's every person that comes has their own bathroom and toilet.

0:55:45.560 --> 0:55:46.840
<v Speaker 1>And it's on the coast.

0:55:47.160 --> 0:55:49.760
<v Speaker 2>It's four miles from the sea, but it's it's only

0:55:50.239 --> 0:55:53.560
<v Speaker 2>just above the lake, and it's in a very it's

0:55:53.600 --> 0:55:55.799
<v Speaker 2>at the end of the road. The nearest store is

0:55:55.840 --> 0:55:56.680
<v Speaker 2>six miles away.

0:55:57.080 --> 0:55:59.280
<v Speaker 1>There's more than a few animals there right, Oh.

0:55:59.200 --> 0:56:01.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, we have. Let us see now we have three

0:56:01.600 --> 0:56:06.640
<v Speaker 2>cats and four dogs, four hens, and five goats and

0:56:08.000 --> 0:56:11.160
<v Speaker 2>tree something like that. I jokingly call it the menagerie.

0:56:11.360 --> 0:56:14.719
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes we milk the goats and Sunny processes the milk,

0:56:14.760 --> 0:56:18.000
<v Speaker 2>and Sonny makes wonderful goat cheese, three different types of

0:56:18.000 --> 0:56:21.799
<v Speaker 2>goat cheese. So we also have what they call a polytunnel,

0:56:21.840 --> 0:56:24.439
<v Speaker 2>which is the equivalent of a greenhouse, where we grow

0:56:24.440 --> 0:56:28.399
<v Speaker 2>around vegetables. So when people come to us, we feed

0:56:28.400 --> 0:56:31.680
<v Speaker 2>them on an organic food and organic free range of eggs,

0:56:32.239 --> 0:56:36.240
<v Speaker 2>and they have milk and cheese, homemade goat cheese, organic

0:56:36.239 --> 0:56:37.000
<v Speaker 2>goat cheese.

0:56:37.760 --> 0:56:39.960
<v Speaker 1>And do you teach them meditation yoga?

0:56:40.160 --> 0:56:43.560
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, we share with them. We don't conduct therapies

0:56:43.600 --> 0:56:47.440
<v Speaker 2>as such. But what happens is that when they come

0:56:47.480 --> 0:56:50.880
<v Speaker 2>at first, they will tell us what has happened to them,

0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:54.319
<v Speaker 2>They release the things they need to release, and then

0:56:54.400 --> 0:56:56.719
<v Speaker 2>we can share with them how we dealt with the

0:56:56.760 --> 0:57:00.680
<v Speaker 2>issues that are causing them problems and opened the way

0:57:00.719 --> 0:57:04.399
<v Speaker 2>for them to the realization that actually they're more than

0:57:04.520 --> 0:57:08.479
<v Speaker 2>just an ex hoonay. They're not just a person who's

0:57:08.520 --> 0:57:10.640
<v Speaker 2>been in prison. They're more than that. The fact that

0:57:10.680 --> 0:57:12.560
<v Speaker 2>they were wrongfully in prison is just an episode in

0:57:12.600 --> 0:57:16.000
<v Speaker 2>their life, and it's an episode they can put behind

0:57:16.040 --> 0:57:18.840
<v Speaker 2>them now. It always travels with them, but they don't

0:57:18.880 --> 0:57:20.880
<v Speaker 2>have to live in the past, and they have an

0:57:20.920 --> 0:57:24.280
<v Speaker 2>opportunity of realizing themselves as full human beings. And we

0:57:24.320 --> 0:57:26.880
<v Speaker 2>bring them out and socialize with our friends, and we

0:57:26.960 --> 0:57:31.320
<v Speaker 2>go to events and to the theater, and so they

0:57:31.760 --> 0:57:34.480
<v Speaker 2>get a chance to mingle with people as ordinary people.

0:57:34.560 --> 0:57:38.600
<v Speaker 1>It's so inspiring to me and to many of us

0:57:38.600 --> 0:57:42.280
<v Speaker 1>who work in the Innocence movement that a very large

0:57:42.280 --> 0:57:47.439
<v Speaker 1>percentage of x honarees are driven to help others who

0:57:47.480 --> 0:57:52.880
<v Speaker 1>have gone through a similar ordeal. And so it's I

0:57:52.880 --> 0:57:56.200
<v Speaker 1>think the most powerful thing I've witnessed, and I always

0:57:56.240 --> 0:58:00.720
<v Speaker 1>asked this question yesterday, is the coming together of gunaries

0:58:00.800 --> 0:58:05.200
<v Speaker 1>and the sharing of the experiences and the healing that

0:58:05.280 --> 0:58:10.160
<v Speaker 1>comes from that and from being with others who are

0:58:10.160 --> 0:58:14.000
<v Speaker 1>the only people alive who can possibly begin to understand

0:58:14.680 --> 0:58:16.800
<v Speaker 1>what you've been through even though every situation is unique

0:58:16.800 --> 0:58:20.240
<v Speaker 1>and every story is unique, but still the experience is

0:58:20.320 --> 0:58:26.320
<v Speaker 1>more similar than not. And it's so wonderfully inspiring to

0:58:26.360 --> 0:58:29.640
<v Speaker 1>hear the stories, both of your stories and the fact

0:58:29.680 --> 0:58:34.760
<v Speaker 1>that they're now one, and what you've done and how

0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:39.600
<v Speaker 1>you've turned this unimaginable set of circumstances into such a

0:58:39.600 --> 0:58:43.520
<v Speaker 1>force for positivity and change and good is something that

0:58:43.640 --> 0:58:47.560
<v Speaker 1>I think everyone who's listening and so many others are

0:58:47.600 --> 0:58:51.480
<v Speaker 1>going to be affected by, and it's inspiring me and

0:58:51.520 --> 0:58:54.680
<v Speaker 1>so many others to want to do more and help more,

0:58:55.040 --> 0:58:57.160
<v Speaker 1>or as many as we possibly can. I should say

0:58:57.280 --> 0:58:59.720
<v Speaker 1>before we have to wrap this up, if any of

0:58:59.720 --> 0:59:03.600
<v Speaker 1>you are listening now and haven't heard the Sunny Jacob's episode,

0:59:03.800 --> 0:59:07.840
<v Speaker 1>I strongly encourage everyone to check out the Sunny Jacob's episode.

0:59:07.920 --> 0:59:10.800
<v Speaker 1>But before we sign off, Peter, are there any last

0:59:10.840 --> 0:59:13.000
<v Speaker 1>words that you'd like to share with the audience.

0:59:13.320 --> 0:59:18.480
<v Speaker 2>Learn not to carry anger. Anger is a natural phenomenon.

0:59:18.480 --> 0:59:20.840
<v Speaker 2>We get angry, I get angry, everybody gets angry, but

0:59:20.920 --> 0:59:25.720
<v Speaker 2>don't hold it. Don't hold it, don't hate because hate

0:59:25.800 --> 0:59:30.080
<v Speaker 2>consumes the hater, and anger consumes the angry person. That

0:59:30.160 --> 0:59:34.400
<v Speaker 2>doesn't consume the person you're angry against and it damaged

0:59:34.440 --> 0:59:37.000
<v Speaker 2>your health, let it go and try and be in

0:59:37.040 --> 0:59:41.360
<v Speaker 2>the spirit of forgiveness, because that's where your real strength is.

0:59:42.240 --> 0:59:44.320
<v Speaker 2>Our real strength is in the fact that we decided

0:59:44.400 --> 0:59:48.840
<v Speaker 2>we would move towards healing and forgiveness and let go

0:59:48.960 --> 0:59:54.160
<v Speaker 2>of all those negative emotions. And I wish everyone the best.

1:00:00.480 --> 1:00:03.120
<v Speaker 1>Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

1:00:03.160 --> 1:00:06.840
<v Speaker 1>get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud

1:00:06.880 --> 1:00:09.439
<v Speaker 1>donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

1:00:09.520 --> 1:00:12.920
<v Speaker 1>join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1:00:13.040 --> 1:00:16.600
<v Speaker 1>to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

1:00:16.680 --> 1:00:19.760
<v Speaker 1>org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

1:00:19.800 --> 1:00:22.880
<v Speaker 1>like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1:00:23.200 --> 1:00:25.520
<v Speaker 1>The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1:00:25.520 --> 1:00:28.560
<v Speaker 1>nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1:00:28.600 --> 1:00:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1:00:33.800 --> 1:00:36.840
<v Speaker 1>Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1:00:36.880 --> 1:00:41.800
<v Speaker 1>for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company. Number one