1
00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:10,560
Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door open up. The

2
00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:12,640
Speaker 1: choice to be in that lineup was the last choice

3
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 1: I made as a free man.

4
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:16,919
Speaker 2: A year later, I ended up writing the system.

5
00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

6
00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:21,639
Speaker 1: in the world is going to think as a.

7
00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,680
Speaker 3: Monster or suspect as a monster for the rest of

8
00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:24,960
Speaker 3: my life, and I'm just going to have to come

9
00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:25,599
Speaker 3: to peace with that.

10
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,520
Speaker 2: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the

11
00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,120
Speaker 2: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

12
00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,479
Speaker 2: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

13
00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,720
Speaker 2: might have to play in my hanging. They had been

14
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,920
Speaker 2: told that two prison officers would have to participate in

15
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:43,640
Speaker 2: my execution.

16
00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,240
Speaker 1: Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,

17
00:00:48,440 --> 00:01:12,640
Speaker 1: all health broke news. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome

18
00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,640
Speaker 1: back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Today's guest is

19
00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,400
Speaker 1: a dear friend of mine and an extraordinary person, Peter Pringle.

20
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,680
Speaker 3: Pringle was accused of participating in a murder of two

21
00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,840
Speaker 3: police officers following a bank robbery in Ireland. After his conviction,

22
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:28,679
Speaker 3: he was sentenced to.

23
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,200
Speaker 2: Death by hanging and the police officer who had lied

24
00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,479
Speaker 2: to get me convicted, was now a retired detective superintendent.

25
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:38,040
Speaker 2: He had been promoted up to the top.

26
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,880
Speaker 3: Just days before a noose was to be tied around

27
00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,920
Speaker 3: his neck. Peter learned that Ireland's president had commuted his

28
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:45,959
Speaker 3: sends to forty years without parole.

29
00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,240
Speaker 2: It faced the forty years, which wasn't the possibility for

30
00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,600
Speaker 2: me at the time. I could kill myself, which at

31
00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:53,920
Speaker 2: the time was a reasonable house.

32
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,320
Speaker 1: Peter, what an extraordinary story. So happy to have you here.

33
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,040
Speaker 1: You're also the first guest on Wrongful who's not born

34
00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:01,640
Speaker 1: in America.

35
00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:03,680
Speaker 2: Thank you. It's an honor to be here. Thank you

36
00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 2: very much.

37
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just saying, it's exciting that you're here because,

38
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,079
Speaker 1: as I said, we're taking it international now, right. You're

39
00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,960
Speaker 1: as Irish as Irish can be. So Peter, let's go

40
00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,880
Speaker 1: back to the we're talking. This is a very interesting

41
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,640
Speaker 1: time right when things were going sort of crazy in

42
00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,959
Speaker 1: your home country, right, So bring us back to what

43
00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,000
Speaker 1: was give us the climate in there.

44
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,080
Speaker 2: What happened was in nineteen eighty there was a bank

45
00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,680
Speaker 2: robbery in Ireland which the police serf was carried out

46
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,440
Speaker 2: by two three men rather and the getaway car traveling

47
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,320
Speaker 2: across country, small country roads, collided with a police car

48
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,000
Speaker 2: at a small crossroads.

49
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:42,040
Speaker 1: It sounds like a movie.

50
00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, well this is now the police version of events

51
00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 2: because it goes I wasn't there, so I really can't

52
00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,799
Speaker 2: give you the I can give you what I think

53
00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,920
Speaker 2: is the accurate event of what happened because of my

54
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 2: later investigations. But there was the two cars collided, there

55
00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,360
Speaker 2: was an exchange of going far and two police officers

56
00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,440
Speaker 2: were killed, and the three raiders escaped across country, the

57
00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 2: three bank crappers.

58
00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and where did this happen?

59
00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,800
Speaker 2: In a town called Balhadrin and County ross Common in Ireland.

60
00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,760
Speaker 1: But at the time you were far away.

61
00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,919
Speaker 2: I was in a different region, different county altogether. That's it.

62
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:19,800
Speaker 1: That's an important detail.

63
00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. So that evening one man was arrested not too

64
00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:25,760
Speaker 2: far away and he had a bullet wound in his chest.

65
00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,240
Speaker 2: And the following morning a second man was arrested and

66
00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,680
Speaker 2: the third man escaped across country. And two days after

67
00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 2: the crime, a police officer managed to catch the man

68
00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 2: that were chasing, actually caught hold of him and was

69
00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,400
Speaker 2: the only police officer to see the man with When

70
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 2: the man wasn't wearing a mask, but the man struggled

71
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:49,880
Speaker 2: and got away from the police officer, ran away across

72
00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:55,119
Speaker 2: the fields, stole a car and escaped again, and apparently

73
00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,560
Speaker 2: he passed through the town where I was and got

74
00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,280
Speaker 2: away again from the police. And twelve days after the crime,

75
00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,360
Speaker 2: they arrested me and brought me in and framed me

76
00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,120
Speaker 2: up for the crime I hadn't committed.

77
00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,760
Speaker 1: Now, there was there's a backstory there too, right, there

78
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 1: was a reason they wanted you. Right, you were known

79
00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,080
Speaker 1: to the cops and you were a person that they

80
00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,520
Speaker 1: would have liked to pin something on, and this was

81
00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:18,480
Speaker 1: sort of a cond Yeah.

82
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,839
Speaker 2: Well, I was known in the context that I was

83
00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,360
Speaker 2: a political activist. I'd been a political activist from the

84
00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,280
Speaker 2: time I was sixteen years of age, and I'd been

85
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,520
Speaker 2: involved with the IRA, and I had been interned when

86
00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,599
Speaker 2: I was eighteen years of age. From nineteen fifty seven

87
00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,960
Speaker 2: to fifty nine, I was imprisoned in a prison camp

88
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,320
Speaker 2: on the Coral in Ireland without interment. It means that

89
00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,720
Speaker 2: you're imprisoned without any charge or trial on suspicion. So

90
00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,760
Speaker 2: they had this background. They classified me as a subversive

91
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:46,760
Speaker 2: so it was handy for them to get me off

92
00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,720
Speaker 2: the streets. That's the way they saw it. But at

93
00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,200
Speaker 2: the time at the crime happened, I had a very

94
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,560
Speaker 2: serious alcohol problem and I was on a binge. I

95
00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,960
Speaker 2: was drinking. I had been drinking buddies for days and

96
00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,960
Speaker 2: days and days. And then they told me that they

97
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 2: thought the police might be looking for me. I said,

98
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,680
Speaker 2: what for what? So I decided, well, you know, I'd

99
00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,320
Speaker 2: have to come off the drink and go and go

100
00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 2: to the police and find out what this is all about.

101
00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,719
Speaker 2: But before that happened, I had come off to drink.

102
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,240
Speaker 2: But before I could go to them, they found me

103
00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,080
Speaker 2: in the house of a friend and arrested me and

104
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:21,600
Speaker 2: took me in.

105
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:23,919
Speaker 1: They found you in the house of friends. So you

106
00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,760
Speaker 1: were on this this binge. Yeah, knowing you you're you're

107
00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,440
Speaker 1: someone who's prone to extremes.

108
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 2: Right, some days I've been drinking.

109
00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,839
Speaker 1: Twelve days of drinking. That's a lot of drinking. Yeah,

110
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,400
Speaker 1: And I imagine this is this is not casual drinking,

111
00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:38,760
Speaker 1: This is.

112
00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,880
Speaker 2: No this is this was serious alcoholic drinking. Yes. And

113
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,600
Speaker 2: I've been a fisherman you see at sea, which probably

114
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,120
Speaker 2: saved me because when you go to see in a

115
00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,200
Speaker 2: trawler you don't drink. There's not drinking a boat, and

116
00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,600
Speaker 2: so I only drank when when I got ashore, which

117
00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,640
Speaker 2: was a different story. And at the time of my arrest,

118
00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,640
Speaker 2: I was a skipper of a boat carrying cargo out

119
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,279
Speaker 2: of the Arden Islands, which are three islands off the

120
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,920
Speaker 2: west coast of Ireland as Away off Galway Bay and

121
00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,040
Speaker 2: habited islands. So my job was to carry different cargoes

122
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,000
Speaker 2: on the ship boat out of the islands of landed

123
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,360
Speaker 2: safety and bring the boat back safely. That was my

124
00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:17,120
Speaker 2: job at the time.

125
00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,400
Speaker 1: Now, just to give some context, Peter looks like the

126
00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,720
Speaker 1: skipper of a boat. He's very tall and strong and

127
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,119
Speaker 1: very well built. I mean, he's got long flowing hair.

128
00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,200
Speaker 1: You know, for someone like me who grew up in Manhattan,

129
00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 1: what would I know about skippers of boats? Right, we

130
00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,200
Speaker 1: have rowboats in Central Park here. That's about it. But

131
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,480
Speaker 1: in any case, yes, he very much looks the part.

132
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,799
Speaker 1: So you were so this was your job at the time.

133
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,159
Speaker 2: That was my job, and as luck would have it,

134
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,920
Speaker 2: I took the day off work the day that the

135
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,400
Speaker 2: robbery happened and went on a binge and they used

136
00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,480
Speaker 2: that against me as I had taken the day off

137
00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:56,160
Speaker 2: work to go and commit the robbery hadn't happened. But anyway,

138
00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,599
Speaker 2: when I was arrested and I was taken to the

139
00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,839
Speaker 2: police station, there's a funny thing about that too, because

140
00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,520
Speaker 2: after twelve days on drinking, you know, I was entering

141
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,080
Speaker 2: into detox because this was the first day I hadn't drank.

142
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,040
Speaker 2: And when they arrested me and took me into the

143
00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,160
Speaker 2: police card, two detectives each side of me, I had

144
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,960
Speaker 2: to shiver it and they said I was shivering because

145
00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:21,040
Speaker 2: of fear, because of killed skilled. I was shivering because

146
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,000
Speaker 2: I was after binge. But when they got me into

147
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,800
Speaker 2: the police station, they first thing they did was strip

148
00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,600
Speaker 2: me naked and a team of detectives walked around and

149
00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,520
Speaker 2: inspected my body, which I found to be very weird,

150
00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,760
Speaker 2: and they all looked very disappointed, and I didn't know why.

151
00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,960
Speaker 2: I later discovered they were disappointed because I didn't have

152
00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,560
Speaker 2: a bullet wound. Because I remember the guy that they

153
00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,880
Speaker 2: arrested had been shot told him that his friend had

154
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,640
Speaker 2: also been shot, so they were looking to see had

155
00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,120
Speaker 2: I a bullet wound, And when I didn't have a

156
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,400
Speaker 2: bullet wound, that looked very disappointed. But that didn't stop

157
00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,040
Speaker 2: them framing me up. So I was arrested at three

158
00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,000
Speaker 2: o'clock on a Saturday afternoon, and at four o'clock they

159
00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,440
Speaker 2: commenced interrogations and I was interrogated from four pm Saturday

160
00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 2: afternoon until four thirty am on Sunday morning.

161
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:05,000
Speaker 1: Twelve and a half hours.

162
00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a break when I had a visit,

163
00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,160
Speaker 2: two breaks when I had two short visits with my

164
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,480
Speaker 2: lawyers in the middle, but that was twelve hours.

165
00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,120
Speaker 1: Basically, you and two detectors in the room had that may.

166
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,480
Speaker 2: And the team of detectives they were coming in relays

167
00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,240
Speaker 2: of towo's and trees and interrogating and you know, with

168
00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,160
Speaker 2: the occasional beating in the thrown in for good measure

169
00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,960
Speaker 2: because two colleagues had been killed and they were very,

170
00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,280
Speaker 2: very angry. And so then at four am in the morning,

171
00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,240
Speaker 2: I was brought down into a dirty cell and put

172
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,800
Speaker 2: into a dirty cell, and a police officer was outside

173
00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,439
Speaker 2: with a baton, and it's a solid door, and they

174
00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,600
Speaker 2: closed the door and then he was outside banging on

175
00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,280
Speaker 2: the metal door with his baton so that I couldn't

176
00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,240
Speaker 2: fall asleep. And then at eight am they took me

177
00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,120
Speaker 2: out of the cell and at eight thirty re commenced

178
00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,800
Speaker 2: interrogations and I was interrogated from eight thirty am on

179
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,680
Speaker 2: Sunday morning right through until four thirty am on Monday morning.

180
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 1: Wow, that's an twenty hours yeah.

181
00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,679
Speaker 2: And during that day it's very interesting actually in the

182
00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 2: afternoon that was on the Sunday what we're known in

183
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 2: Ireland as the Heavy Gang. These were the Serious Crime

184
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,360
Speaker 2: Squad who had a terrible reputation. They took over the

185
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,440
Speaker 2: police station and they allowed they let all the local

186
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,360
Speaker 2: police go off to a football match or something, and

187
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,000
Speaker 2: so the only people in the police station with me

188
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,320
Speaker 2: on Sunday afternoon were the Serious Crime Squad and Special Branch.

189
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,920
Speaker 2: And at one point in the afternoon I was being

190
00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,480
Speaker 2: interrogated and they when they beat you, they make sure

191
00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 2: you have to leave mark so you get kidney punches.

192
00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,600
Speaker 2: I'd be standing while they be questioning me, and one

193
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 2: would come behind me with his pistol and you know,

194
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,360
Speaker 2: whack you in the kidneys, which is very very painful.

195
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,640
Speaker 2: And are they take their boots and rask them down

196
00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,840
Speaker 2: along my shins, you know, along the shin bone, along

197
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,160
Speaker 2: the skin to tear the skin. Stuff like that. You

198
00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:09,200
Speaker 2: wouldn't think about a stamp on your toes. These are big,

199
00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,360
Speaker 2: heavy men, you know, and you're wearing a pair of

200
00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:16,080
Speaker 2: canvas shoes that they've given me. And at one point

201
00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,320
Speaker 2: that I knew I needed to break this was, you know,

202
00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,720
Speaker 2: I knew I was. I was getting very tired of this.

203
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,360
Speaker 2: So I said I wanted to use the toilet, and

204
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:27,880
Speaker 2: they said you're not going to use the toilet. You're

205
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 2: not going to use the toilet, you know, because they

206
00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,880
Speaker 2: used fierce language, you know. And I waited a little

207
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,040
Speaker 2: while and then I said to the inspector who was

208
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,480
Speaker 2: conducting matters, I said, it's like this now, I said,

209
00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:40,839
Speaker 2: if you don't have to use the toilet, I said,

210
00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to pissl the floor here in this office.

211
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,520
Speaker 2: They went there and he said, well he would too,

212
00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,480
Speaker 2: he would too to be you know. So with that

213
00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,680
Speaker 2: they left the room and they called in two other

214
00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,560
Speaker 2: detectives and they left the room, and after about ten minutes,

215
00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,040
Speaker 2: they were told to take me out of the toilet.

216
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,240
Speaker 2: So the two detectors took me out. I was in front,

217
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,240
Speaker 2: walked out the door, down the corridor and turned right

218
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:10,840
Speaker 2: along a long corridor and about halfway down this corridor,

219
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,040
Speaker 2: there's an alcove to a staircase going stairs, waves going.

220
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:15,200
Speaker 1: Up, and the.

221
00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,360
Speaker 2: Men's room was on the left, near the opposite that

222
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,559
Speaker 2: that's alcove. And at the end of the corridor, the

223
00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 2: door was open out onto the car park and the street.

224
00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,720
Speaker 2: And I'm walking now, but you know, you can imagine

225
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:36,720
Speaker 2: I'm sort of hypertense because of all that's happening, and

226
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,960
Speaker 2: I'm walking down along the corridor, and I had the

227
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,000
Speaker 2: door open because they wanted me to make a run

228
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:44,400
Speaker 2: for it.

229
00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:45,360
Speaker 1: So they could see you.

230
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And when I got just at this alcohol, a

231
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,439
Speaker 2: detective standing in the alcohol that I couldn't see, put

232
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,480
Speaker 2: his foot out to trip me. But I was so

233
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,720
Speaker 2: hypertense I saw it and I lift him. I stepped

234
00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,280
Speaker 2: over his foot, and the detective behind me says, ah,

235
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,120
Speaker 2: you won't catch Peter like that. And with that, the

236
00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 2: guy that had tried to trip me says, I'll fucking

237
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,680
Speaker 2: catch him, he says, and he cocked a noosy submachine gun.

238
00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,120
Speaker 2: He said, I'll kill the bastard. And I got on

239
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,520
Speaker 2: a merciful push in my back and I was propelled

240
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,600
Speaker 2: through the door of the men's room and up against

241
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,800
Speaker 2: the wall to the side, and the detective behind me,

242
00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,360
Speaker 2: who was a Special Branch detective, shielded my body, put

243
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,080
Speaker 2: his hands up like that. She eded my body and

244
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,800
Speaker 2: said into my ears, say nothing, say nothing, Say nothing,

245
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,120
Speaker 2: and he said to his call he shut the door,

246
00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,000
Speaker 2: and they shut the door, and there was a big

247
00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,320
Speaker 2: for already going on out in the hallway. The guy

248
00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,360
Speaker 2: with a gun was wanting to get at me. And

249
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,199
Speaker 2: the next thing we heard a torretive voice saying, what's

250
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:49,520
Speaker 2: going on here? And then hand me that weapon and

251
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,040
Speaker 2: then to somebody has take care of that weapon, and

252
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,520
Speaker 2: he says, you to my office. And I gather what

253
00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,440
Speaker 2: happened to was as superintendent came in and saw what

254
00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:03,040
Speaker 2: was going on, stopped it. But in the toilet, the

255
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,120
Speaker 2: detective that was protecting me still covered my back, covered

256
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,440
Speaker 2: me with his body, which is a very brave thing

257
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,120
Speaker 2: to do, because I thought the lunatic was going to

258
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,679
Speaker 2: shoot me. And then when everything had quite and down,

259
00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:16,640
Speaker 2: he says to me, I need to have a pin

260
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,800
Speaker 2: out too, he says, after all that, and so that

261
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,720
Speaker 2: was it, and that was brought back and the interrogations continued.

262
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,400
Speaker 1: I mean, we've heard these stories from people who were

263
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:32,560
Speaker 1: wrongfully arrested and subjected to awful interrogations in America. And

264
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,680
Speaker 1: we don't really know much about the audience here because

265
00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,800
Speaker 1: we haven't covered it in any detail what goes on overseas,

266
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,560
Speaker 1: but it sounds every bit as bad as anything that

267
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,880
Speaker 1: goes on in America. And of course we do know that,

268
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,400
Speaker 1: as you pointed out, when police officers are killed, they

269
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 1: get crazy, they get into an irrational state, and they

270
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,640
Speaker 1: probably do things that they wouldn't normally.

271
00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:58,760
Speaker 2: Do normally do that's correct.

272
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you you were subject to I mean from

273
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,040
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to do the math, like almost forty

274
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,959
Speaker 1: hours of interrogation. That's far, and I'm guessing that there

275
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,880
Speaker 1: was well we know that you didn't get any sleep.

276
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,240
Speaker 1: I'm sure you weren't giving anything to eat.

277
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,720
Speaker 2: Well, no, they would bring along a cup of tea

278
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,319
Speaker 2: or something like that, you know, maybe a sandwich, you know.

279
00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,000
Speaker 1: Right, so they okay, so at least you had that

280
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:21,880
Speaker 1: going for yourself. But that which is better than you

281
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,040
Speaker 1: would have thought based on the way they're treating you. Right,

282
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:25,920
Speaker 1: But then again, they like to do that, right, They

283
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,240
Speaker 1: like to pull you in a little bit and then

284
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,960
Speaker 1: put you back out and do that whole like psychological

285
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:30,880
Speaker 1: torture thing as well.

286
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:32,960
Speaker 2: Then when I was put into the cell down on

287
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,800
Speaker 2: Monday morning at four am on Monday morning, I was

288
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 2: taken out again at eight o'clock and I was interrogated

289
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 2: then til noon on Monday, and then I was taken

290
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,280
Speaker 2: on an armed desk card of police to Dublin and

291
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,840
Speaker 2: brought before the Special Criminal Court where I was charged

292
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 2: with capital model and robbery.

293
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,240
Speaker 1: But you never confessed, absolutely not.

294
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,760
Speaker 2: I should tell you this one. My father was a policeman.

295
00:14:58,480 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 2: My father had been a police officer.

296
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:00,640
Speaker 1: I don't know that.

297
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And at the time when I was a young man,

298
00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,280
Speaker 2: and he knew of my involvement with the Republican movement,

299
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,400
Speaker 2: and he tried to talk me out of it, of course,

300
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,120
Speaker 2: and he said to me at one stage he said

301
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,760
Speaker 2: to me, if you're going to stay with these people

302
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,160
Speaker 2: that you're involved in now, he said, I want to

303
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:21,680
Speaker 2: tell you to give you some advice. He says, if

304
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,440
Speaker 2: you're ever arrested by that crowd. And I said, what crowd?

305
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,640
Speaker 2: He said, that crowd in the castle. Dublin Castle was

306
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,400
Speaker 2: the center for the Special Branch. And he was referring

307
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,480
Speaker 2: to a special branch. He said, if they deal with

308
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,960
Speaker 2: political matters. He says, if you're arrested, don't answer any questions.

309
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,040
Speaker 2: He said, give them me your name, address, and date

310
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,400
Speaker 2: of bert and say nothing else. And I said, why that,

311
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,720
Speaker 2: He says, because no matter what you say, they'll twist

312
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,680
Speaker 2: it and use it against you. So when I was arrested,

313
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,160
Speaker 2: and that was my policy when I had been arrested

314
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,960
Speaker 2: many times before, because if anything happened in the area

315
00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,000
Speaker 2: that I was in, they would do a sort of

316
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,400
Speaker 2: round up the usual specs. Anything political happened, I didn't mean,

317
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,200
Speaker 2: and they'd pulled me in and they questioned me, and

318
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:07,840
Speaker 2: I'd say nothing, and they'd released me and that was

319
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,800
Speaker 2: the end of it. So I knew about the procedures

320
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,640
Speaker 2: when I was arrested. But they brought me before the

321
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 2: Special Criminal Court which was established for the trial of

322
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:23,360
Speaker 2: political offenses, which is a tribunal of three judges, no jury,

323
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,560
Speaker 2: and there I was charged and remanded in custody to

324
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,680
Speaker 2: the maximum security prison where was put And in truth,

325
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 2: when I got to the maximum security prison that evening

326
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,160
Speaker 2: on the Monday evening, and that was kind of interesting too,

327
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,320
Speaker 2: because when I was brought into what they call reception

328
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,920
Speaker 2: in the prison. I was stripped. Of course, they stripped

329
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 2: her to you're going into the prison. And there was

330
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,760
Speaker 2: a senior chief officer what they call a chief officer there, Jaylor,

331
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,800
Speaker 2: and they handed me prison claus. I said them, They said,

332
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:53,960
Speaker 2: you have to put them on. You have to wear

333
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,560
Speaker 2: prison clothes. I said, no, I'm a political prisoner. I

334
00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:01,280
Speaker 2: don't wear prison clothes. And they said, but after that's it. No,

335
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 2: I said, I'm not wearing I want my own clothes back.

336
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:05,480
Speaker 2: And I said, if you don't give me my own clothes,

337
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,679
Speaker 2: I'll go naked. I did the respond to that, and

338
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,160
Speaker 2: I said, what well, some of them wanted to beat

339
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:11,880
Speaker 2: me up again, you see. I wanted to beat me up.

340
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,440
Speaker 2: And the chief said no, no, no, he said, are

341
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,480
Speaker 2: you serious. I said, of course, I'm serious. I said,

342
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,440
Speaker 2: I'm a political prisoner. I'm not wearing prison clothes. And

343
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 2: he said, give me his fucking clothes. So I got

344
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,120
Speaker 2: my clothes and I was brought into the prison wing

345
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,199
Speaker 2: where I was where everybody else was not wearing their

346
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,280
Speaker 2: own clothes too, because it was a politic good wing,

347
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 2: you see. And I was put into a cell. And

348
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,359
Speaker 2: I can tell you this much. I to get into

349
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,520
Speaker 2: that prison cell with a clean bed, even though it's

350
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,680
Speaker 2: a narrow, army type of bed. Take off my clothes

351
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:46,480
Speaker 2: and get into the bed and sleep. It was such

352
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:51,879
Speaker 2: a relief after forty eight harrowing hours and me I

353
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,359
Speaker 2: was detoxing during all this time that I was in

354
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,640
Speaker 2: the police station, and there I was. And then three

355
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,800
Speaker 2: months later I was given a copy of the Book

356
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,240
Speaker 2: of Evidence, and I saw in the book of evidence

357
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,399
Speaker 2: where one detective sergeant was claiming that on the Monday

358
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,520
Speaker 2: morning that would have been after thirty four hours of interrogation,

359
00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:13,119
Speaker 2: I had supposedly suddenly blurted out these words. I know

360
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,720
Speaker 2: that you know I was involved, but on the advice

361
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 2: of my solicitor, I'm saying nothing, and you'll have to

362
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,320
Speaker 2: and you'll have to prove it all the way. I'd

363
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 2: never spoken those words, because, as I said, all I

364
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:25,679
Speaker 2: gave was my name addressed data bart and if I

365
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,080
Speaker 2: wanted to use the toilet, I said, I wanted to

366
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:27,639
Speaker 2: use the toilet.

367
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 1: So for thirty four hours of them interrogating you and

368
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,679
Speaker 1: alternately beating you and switching people and going in and

369
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,600
Speaker 1: out and depriving you of sleep and everything else, all

370
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,600
Speaker 1: you gave them was your name.

371
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,960
Speaker 2: Address, and birth data bart and to say to them,

372
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 2: I am innocent of what you're accusing me of.

373
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 1: So your dad's advice really stuck with.

374
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,280
Speaker 2: You absolutely because he knew I mean, he was a

375
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:51,359
Speaker 2: police officer.

376
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,880
Speaker 1: Right, which is an iron ironic twist. It is a thing, right,

377
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 1: the fact that your dad was a police officer and

378
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,440
Speaker 1: you end up being accused of killing two police officers

379
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,800
Speaker 1: and then tortured by police office. Yeah, it's very strange.

380
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,919
Speaker 1: Life is very strange, and your story is particularly insane.

381
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 1: So and what an odd thing to just reflect for

382
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 1: a second on the fact that you were just expressing

383
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,760
Speaker 1: how you felt the sense of relief and you almost

384
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,359
Speaker 1: sounded joyful at the idea that you were being put

385
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,240
Speaker 1: into a cell in a maximum security prison just because

386
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 1: you had just been through this unbelievable ordeal.

387
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,240
Speaker 2: Because I was away from the RDEL, you see, right,

388
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,520
Speaker 2: I was safe from it. That's why I could relax.

389
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 1: I know. But you got to understand, like for anyone

390
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,919
Speaker 1: else you know who's in society to hear that or

391
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,879
Speaker 1: me right now, to go to think of how that

392
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 1: could be that you could actually feel happy about being

393
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,959
Speaker 1: an innocent person put into a tiny cell with a

394
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,880
Speaker 1: hard cut. But then again it was the best thing

395
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 1: you had seen in at least forty eight hours. Yes, right,

396
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 1: I could get some.

397
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 2: Sleeps, so my mind didn't go to that fact that

398
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,200
Speaker 2: I was in the maximum security prisoner, that I was

399
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 2: accused wrongly. That stage my exhaustion, all I wanted was rest.

400
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 2: And then a funny thing happened the following morning. I

401
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,320
Speaker 2: woke up at seven o'clock in the following morning. The

402
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 2: cell I was in was on the ground floor, and

403
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 2: I woke up the following morning at seven o'clock to

404
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,040
Speaker 2: hear a voice outside the cell in the prison yard,

405
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 2: outside the cell, screaming, Jesus help me, help me, help me. Oh,

406
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,159
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ helped me. Like I heard a scream, and

407
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, what's going on here? Because

408
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 2: I didn't know. I thought maybe some prisoner was being

409
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 2: battered or something. And then I heard other voice saying,

410
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,720
Speaker 2: come on, come on, come on here, the cut that down,

411
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,879
Speaker 2: come on, And there was a whole commercial going on

412
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,320
Speaker 2: outside in the prison yard, and I didn't know what

413
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,120
Speaker 2: it was. And I thought, really, I'm in a right

414
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 2: hell hole here. This is a prisoner being battered.

415
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 1: You know.

416
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,159
Speaker 2: It was only afterwards when the cell door opened I

417
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 2: heard that actually it was a prison officer had had

418
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 2: a nervous breakdown in the yard and they were trying

419
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:50,160
Speaker 2: to take him away.

420
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 1: That was your first morning.

421
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 2: That was my first morning experience in the maximum security prison.

422
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 2: What was the name of the prison, Port Leasha prison?

423
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,119
Speaker 1: It was in the Midlands for at least so, yeah, well,

424
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 1: welcome to Port Lisia.

425
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, which it was. It's known colloquially as the Bark

426
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 2: the Bark. Yeah.

427
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 1: So at this point, had you already been sentenced?

428
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 2: No, no, just accused.

429
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: They've thrown you into this prison while you await your trial.

430
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 2: That's right. And I was swing. There was no such

431
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,479
Speaker 2: thing as putting me in with other people and romand

432
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,880
Speaker 2: I was put in with people that had already been convicted.

433
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 2: It was a politic good wing. So the way it

434
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 2: worked there, in one way, it was a tough place

435
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: to be.

436
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,120
Speaker 1: So let's go forward to the trial and the conviction,

437
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 1: because there's so much more to your story. So the

438
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: trial takes, how long does it take to get to

439
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:45,119
Speaker 1: the trial?

440
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, three months after I was arrested, I got

441
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 2: a copy of the Book of Evidence and when I

442
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 2: read the book of evidence, I saw where the detective

443
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,439
Speaker 2: sergeant was claiming that after thirty four hours of interrogation,

444
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 2: I had suddenly blurted out these words that did I

445
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,160
Speaker 2: said to them already I know you know, yeah, which

446
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 2: I never said. And the first time I came across

447
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 2: these words was when I read the book of evidence,

448
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 2: and that was the principal evidence against me.

449
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 1: You're so called confession, my so called oral confession.

450
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 2: So when we went to try, now the two other

451
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 2: people had been arrested, the three of us were tried together, right,

452
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,679
Speaker 2: So the trial took twenty three court days over six weeks,

453
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,439
Speaker 2: and for the first twelve days of the trial, my

454
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 2: name wasn't even mentioned, apart from the fact they charges

455
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,360
Speaker 2: were read out to me. After that, my name wasn't

456
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 2: mentioned for twelve days. So I'm sitting in the dock.

457
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 2: It's surreal as if I'm one of the audience, because

458
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 2: they're talking about stuff about these other guys and nothing

459
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 2: about me. And then after twelve days they went to

460
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 2: my case, and when my case was then opened, they

461
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 2: opened the case against me. The police officer who had

462
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 2: captured the guy they were chasing, whom they claimed was me.

463
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 2: Went in the witness box and he was asked to

464
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 2: see the man again and he said, yes, he's in

465
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 2: the court and can you point him out? And he said, yes,

466
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 2: I'm sitting in the dock. So he pointed to a

467
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 2: man in the public gallery, standing in the public gallery

468
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 2: and he says, that's him standing up there. And it

469
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: was really bizarre because all the public gallery in the

470
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 2: court was packed, but all the people standing beside this

471
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 2: man moved away from him and somehow found space, and

472
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 2: he was left standing like this on his own, like

473
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: something you can see in the movies, you know, And

474
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 2: the whole courtroom started laughing. It seems so funny. But

475
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 2: I was convicted. They never stopped that man, they never

476
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 2: arrested him, they allowed him leave the court.

477
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 1: Is it your belief that that was actually the guy?

478
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 2: Oh well, the police officer who had caught him and

479
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 2: spoke to him said that was actually the guy, and

480
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: he had the and he knew I was in the dock.

481
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 2: He knew I was the accused.

482
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: And it's interesting and bizarre though we've seen this before,

483
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 1: that the actual killer would come to the courtroom to

484
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: watch the proceedings, right.

485
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: Apparently he did.

486
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a phenomenon that happened. It's so weird.

487
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: And so he was allowed to leave the court. And

488
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 2: I was convicted on the evidence of the detective sergeant

489
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: that I had spoken those words I told you about

490
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 2: that I never said, right, and that was the evidence

491
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 2: of him which I was convicted.

492
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: And sense death, did your attorney bring up the fact

493
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: that the other defendant had said that you had?

494
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 2: But he said to me afterwards that evening, he said

495
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 2: to me, now I should explain the situation in the

496
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: Special Priminent court. Not like in America, I the accused

497
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 2: of not allowed to sit beside these lawyers. Okay, So

498
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:28,360
Speaker 2: you have the tribunal, the registrar, the solicitors, the barristers,

499
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: the journalists, and then behind and are raised slightly elevated

500
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 2: the dock. I'm sitting in the dock, So I am

501
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: about I suppose I am about the equivalent of about

502
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 2: six rows of seats behind my lawyers. And they're facing

503
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 2: the opposite direction from me. They're facing the court as

504
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: I am, so I can only see their backs, and

505
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 2: I can't consult with them. And the only time I

506
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: can consult with them is when the try that day

507
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 2: is over. So when I raised the matter with my

508
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 2: lwyers at the time, they told me, oh, well, you

509
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 2: can't be convicted now, as the detective has said, the

510
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 2: police officer has made that identification. There's no way you

511
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: can be convicted. And I thought, okay, I knew nothing

512
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: about the law at the time.

513
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 1: Well it seems logical though, understand it says, yeah, the

514
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: guy's here, there, he is, he is, and you're going okay, yeah, good.

515
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 2: But the thing about it is, if that had happened

516
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 2: in the North of Ireland, if my lawyers had been

517
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 2: any good, they would have asked for a mistrial straight away.

518
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 2: They would ask for dismissal straight away. But they didn't.

519
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: And actually, my senior counsel, who didn't even turn around

520
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: to look at this man, and didn't even turn around

521
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: to look where the police officer pointed to, he said

522
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 2: to the police officer, so you've identified the defendant as

523
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: the man, and the police officer said yes. And then

524
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: the prosecution council stood up and he said, in fairness

525
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: to the accused, my lords, he said, I have to

526
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 2: point out he said that this witness was shown a

527
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 2: photograph of the accused before the trial and they're not

528
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: allowed to do that, you see. So then that meant

529
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 2: that his evidence was just allowed.

530
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: Oh so his evidence of having pointed out the actual killer,

531
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: who we believe is the actual killer, was disallowed because

532
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: of that, but not your false confession. Were you able

533
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 1: to testify in your defense?

534
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 2: No, my lawyers said that no evidence against me, and

535
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 2: that if I went into the witness box it would

536
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: mitigate against me and that the state would put me apart.

537
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 2: And I wasn't afraid to go into the witness box.

538
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: In fact, I wanted to go into the witness box,

539
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 2: but my lawyers misdirected me and said, no, there's no

540
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 2: evidence against you, so there's no need for you to

541
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: go into the witness box.

542
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: So again another common factor that we see, well, a

543
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 1: couple of common factors that we see in these wrongful convictions.

544
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 1: You're a victim of police misconduct, prosecutorial misconduct, and incompetent

545
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: defense attorneys, and ultimately you're convicted and sentenced to death.

546
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,959
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that moment, and then let's move forward

547
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: to the craziness that happened on the eve of your execution.

548
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Well, when the case was over, when the

549
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: prosecution case in the defense case was finished. The court

550
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 2: reserved judgment to the following day, and we were brought

551
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 2: back to the prison and to be brought up the

552
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 2: following day to hear their judgment. When we were convicted

553
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: and so.

554
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 1: So you had been convicted in that sentence.

555
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: No, I hadn't been convicted.

556
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: Oh, so you had to go You had to go

557
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: back to the prison and wait there, wonder.

558
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 2: Off the court as to whether they were going to

559
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 2: convict or not.

560
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: That's a long night.

561
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: And it was. It was pretty clear that they were

562
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 2: going to convict the other two guys because there was

563
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: evidence against them, but there was no The only evidence

564
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: against me was this the word of this police officer,

565
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: which I had disputed, and plus the fact that the

566
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: other police officer had identified the actual culprit who was

567
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 2: not me. So when we went up the following day, anyway,

568
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: they convicted me and they sentenced me to death, and

569
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: the sentence went like this. To preside member of the

570
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: court said you should be taken from this court to

571
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 2: the place in which you were last held. And this

572
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: was now on the twenty seventh of November nineteen eighty

573
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 2: and on the nineteen day of November and nine and

574
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: the year of our Lord nineteen eighty you should be

575
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: made to suffer debt by execution in the manner prescribed

576
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: by law. And then and you're also sentenced to fifteen

577
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 2: years imprisonment for the robbery. My inner response at the

578
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: time was, this is crazy. If I'm going to be

579
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: executed in three weeks time, I can't serve the fifteen years.

580
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: And if I'm going to serve the fifteen years, I

581
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 2: can't be executed three weeks time. That was the way

582
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: my head was around the whole time. And then I

583
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 2: was taken down underneath the courtroom to the cells. I

584
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 2: was putting the cell, and then my lawyers come down

585
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: to see me in this alcove that was there, and

586
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: I was brought out to the alcohol to meet with

587
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: my lawyers. But the senior lawyer hadn't yet come. And

588
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 2: when he came in a few moments later and he

589
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: came up to me, he was weeping. He was crying,

590
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: he was in tears. And I found myself in this

591
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: bizarre situation that I was standing up with my arm

592
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,479
Speaker 2: around his name is Sheamus Egan, the lawyer. My arm

593
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: was around him, and I was saying it's okay, it's okay,

594
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: don't worry, which we haven't appealed, don't worry. And he's

595
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 2: crying his eyes out, and I think there was a

596
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 2: this is weird good backwards, this is this is about face. Yeah,

597
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: he should be consoling me and I, you know, whereas

598
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: I'm consolting him. And so I was brought back to

599
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 2: the prison. Now, when I was brought back to the prison,

600
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: now I'm a sentence I condemned prisoner, right, so I'm

601
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: put in a death cell. And at first actually didn't

602
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: put me in a death cell. They put me in

603
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 2: an isolation area. And they put me in an ordinary

604
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: cell in an isolation area with two jailers in this

605
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: stale saddle with me. And that night there was no

606
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: sleep because these guys were sitting reading papers, rustling, talking,

607
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: you know, and I couldn't get to sleep until eventually

608
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: during the night I sat up and I said to him,

609
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: and I said, now listen here to me, you guys,

610
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: the chief has told me that in this situation that

611
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 2: I'm in, I can have whatever jailer's I want with me.

612
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: And unless you pair be totally quiet, I'm going to

613
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: ask for you every night, and they went, oh jeez,

614
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: don't do that, and they were as quite as lambs,

615
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: and I got through the night.

616
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: But then the follow that was a very good reverse

617
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: psychology there. Yeah. Yeah, well it's almost it's sort of

618
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: like an active rebellion, I guess in a certain way,

619
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: and also and an element of controlling your own situation

620
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: which is completely out of your control.

621
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then I protested the following day and they

622
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: put us into a they created what they called the

623
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: death cell, which was a larger cell, and the three

624
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 2: condemned prisoners were put in there. And I hadn't bed

625
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 2: down again in the wall.

626
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: You and the other two the actual bankroppers, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

627
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: you didn't know until that point, right.

628
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: No, well I knew one of them previously because I

629
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: knew him from drinking, okay, but otherwise I didn't know them.

630
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: And of course it's often asked to me, why didn't

631
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: they say you weren't with them? And the fact of

632
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: the matter is each of them were conducting a defense

633
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,239
Speaker 2: of not guilty. They were pleading not guilty, and if

634
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 2: they had said that I wasn't with them, that would

635
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: prove that they were guilty. And the charge carried a

636
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: mandatory death sentence.

637
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: So they had nothing to lose.

638
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,719
Speaker 2: They weren't going They were just trying to save their

639
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: own next and I understood that. But anyway, in that

640
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: condemned self that I was in there on the twenty

641
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 2: seventh of November and about a week before Christmas of

642
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: that year in nineteen eighty, the way the rule was,

643
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 2: the condemned prisoner wasn't allowed to speak to any of

644
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: the prisoners, and the jailers were told not to speak

645
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 2: the condemned prisoner for their own protection, because if a jailer,

646
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: like a prison guard, gets to like a condemned prisoner,

647
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: or have respect for a condemned prisoner, it would be

648
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: very difficult for them to participate in cold bloodedly taking

649
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: that person's life, which is logically true. But on this

650
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: particular case, about a week before Christmas, I overheard three

651
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: of the jailers discussing what part they might have to

652
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 2: play in my hanging.

653
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: Now.

654
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: They were sitting as cross as I am to you, Jason,

655
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: and they were discussing, this is if I wasn't there,

656
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: as if I wasn't a human being. They had been

657
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 2: told that two prison officers would have to participate in

658
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 2: my execution, and they were very concerned to know what

659
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: bonus they would receive for doing this job, because of

660
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: course it was outside of their normal work, and what

661
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: role they would have to play. And the role they

662
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 2: would have to play, they said, was that when my

663
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: body would go down to the trap door of the gallows,

664
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: there would be two prison officers underneath, and each one

665
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 2: would have to pull on one of my legs to

666
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: make sure my neck was broken.

667
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: You know, I'm almost never at a loss for words,

668
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: but I don't even know what to say about that.

669
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: That's a whole note.

670
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know what to say about it either,

671
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: but I was already angry over what they had done

672
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: to me. But this made me enraged, but in a

673
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 2: funny kind of way, and if it's our kind of way,

674
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: helped me because it forced me to face the reality

675
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 2: straight in front of me. So I was likely to

676
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 2: be hanged. How old were you at the time, forty one?

677
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: And facing that reality, to my surprise, I discovered that

678
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: I wasn't afraid to die, But what I was afraid

679
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 2: of was that I might not be able to die

680
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 2: with dignity. I was terribly afraid that they might succeed

681
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 2: in taking away my human dignity, and I determined I

682
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: wouldn't have let them do that. Now they had imprisoned

683
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: me physically, but they couldn't imprison my mind, or my

684
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: heart or my spirit. And so I determined that it

685
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 2: was in those relements on myself I would exist while

686
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: I was in that situation. And that's what I did.

687
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: And the mind, the heart, and the spirit. Yeah, and

688
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: so you came within eleven days of being executed.

689
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: That's correct. Well before that, my lawyer has made an

690
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: application for leave to appeal, which put a stay on

691
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: the execution. But then the appeal court refuse my application

692
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: for leave to appeal, so I got no appeal, and

693
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: they said a new day for my execution, which was

694
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: the eighth of June nineteen eighty one. And about two

695
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: weeks after the new date was set, my lawyer's going

696
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: on to visit me in the prison and they wanted

697
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 2: me to allow them to put in a plea for

698
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 2: clemency on my behalf, and I refused. I said no way.

699
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 2: And the senior counsel, the guy who had been crying

700
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 2: after the trial, he was in tears again, you know,

701
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 2: very emotional man, and he said, but they might hang you,

702
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: Peter Well, I said, if they do, it wouldn't be

703
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: the first innocent person they've hanged. But I will not

704
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 2: plea for clemency for something I didn't do. And I

705
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: actually asked for a piece of paper and I wrote,

706
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: gave them written instructions to that effect, because I was

707
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: afraid they would actually go and do it anyway. Oh.

708
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 1: Yes.

709
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 2: The reason they said this was that government cabinet had

710
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: met and discussed whether I would be executed or not

711
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 2: and couldn't come to an agreement about it. And they

712
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: were concerned that the following week the cabinet was going

713
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 2: to meet again and the cabinet might decide to execute me.

714
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 2: So they went away very upset and I went back

715
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: to my cell and the following week when the cabinet met,

716
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 2: I later learned that the Prime ministers before any discussion

717
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 2: would happen and said, we're not executing Pringle. It would

718
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: be political suicide. And then they instructed the President to

719
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 2: commute the sentence. And the President commuted sentence from debt

720
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 2: to forty years penal servitude without any possibility of parole

721
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: or omission. And I was put out into the general

722
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: prison population where I could talk to people and I

723
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: could exercise the yard.

724
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: So it's almost like a I mean, better than being executed,

725
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: I guess, but not by a whole lot, because essentially

726
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: it's a death sentence. You're forty one years old, You've

727
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 1: got forty years in prison. You're going to die in prison, right,

728
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: that's right.

729
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: But that's not what happened, no, because at the time

730
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 2: I knew I had three options. You know, I could

731
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 2: face the forty years, which wasn't the possibility for me

732
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: at the time. I could kill myself, which at the

733
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 2: time was a reasonable proposition, not let them refuse, to

734
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 2: allow them to keep me for forty years. But then

735
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 2: I realized if I did that, they'd say I had

736
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 2: done it out of given a remorse. So I couldn't

737
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 2: allow that. So I determined I was going to try

738
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 2: and prove my innocence.

739
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: And ultimately you did, yeah, fifteen years later. So let's

740
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: walk through that because I want to get to the

741
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,439
Speaker 1: next phase of your life, which is so extraordinary.

742
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 2: Well, I should also tell you that there was no

743
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 2: law library in the prison.

744
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: So how did you go about proving your innocence?

745
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: I had a friend who worked in the university outside

746
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: and she had access to the law library in the university,

747
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 2: and I arranged with her to photocopy sections of law

748
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: books and find out which were the best criminal law

749
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 2: books and constitutional law books and photocopy sections of them.

750
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 1: You had plenty of time to study.

751
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: Well, then I couldn't study. You see, I left school

752
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 2: when I was thirteen years of age, and I'd worked

753
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 2: all my life, and I had no formal education, and

754
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 2: my anger was such that I just.

755
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: Couldn't the documents understandable.

756
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: So I determined I had to try and learn how

757
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: to relax. So I got a friend to leave me

758
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 2: in a little book on yoga with illustrations of the postures,

759
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: and I began to teach myself yoga in the cell

760
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 2: on my own, and teach myself meditation. And as I

761
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 2: mastered does two disciplines, my anger got less than I

762
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: was able to study. And I spent my time studying.

763
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 2: And then what happened was other guys in the prison

764
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: would come to me with their documents, with their cases

765
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 2: and asked me would I look at their cases? And

766
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, sure, and I would because it was

767
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 2: helping them. Was also helping me, and so that's what

768
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: I did most of my time in the jail. In

769
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 2: the prison, I studied law as best I could, and eventually,

770
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 2: in January of nineteen ninety two, I opened my own

771
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: case on my own behalf in the High Court in

772
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 2: Dublin under the Irish Constitution. Now I had no money,

773
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 2: i'd know lawyers, so I had to prepare the case myself,

774
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: file at myself and conduct the case myself, so which

775
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: meant that they had to take me under armed escort

776
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 2: of military and police up to the court where I

777
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: represented myself against the top lawyers of the state. And

778
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 2: the case ran from January nineteen ninety two until May

779
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety five, when my conviction was overturned. But

780
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 2: in July of nineteen ninety two I won an order

781
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: for discovery in the High Court. And that's another I'll

782
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: tell you. There's reams to this story that it's kind

783
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 2: of important to say this one to you.

784
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: One of the.

785
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: Cars used in the crime had been stolen in Galway

786
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: on the second of July. The crime happened the seventh.

787
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 2: It was stolen on the second of July between eleven

788
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: PM and eleven forty five pm from the car park

789
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: of a hotel. Right, and the evidence of the stealing

790
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: of that car was allowed into the trial because at

791
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 2: court ruled that the stealing of the car formed part

792
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: of the rest yestay of the offense, which meant that

793
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 2: the person who stole the car had done the killing. Right. Okay,

794
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: But on the date of the car of stolen. At

795
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 2: the time the car of stolen, I was delivering four

796
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 2: thousand concrete blocks on the Arden Islands with fifty more

797
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 2: or more witnesses there. Now, I delivered the concrete blocker.

798
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: But five years after I had been I was imprisoned.

799
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 2: I got a letter from my former boss, the guy

800
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: who owned a little company that owned the boat that

801
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 2: I was skippering, asking me if i'd been paid for

802
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: the delivery and for the blocks to the value of

803
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: six hundred pounds, which I didn't know about because that

804
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: wasn't my role. My role was simply to be the

805
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 2: skipper to take the cargo out, and I didn't even

806
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: know what a cost. I wrote back and told him that,

807
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: and he said, no, we believe you, We understand that.

808
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: But he said, the man that you delivered to has

809
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 2: refused to pay his bill, and five years later, when

810
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: they threatened court action to get the money, he told

811
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 2: them that he had paid me the money because I'm imprisoned.

812
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: You see, I'm in prison doing forty years for murderer

813
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: catherin wor Than now robbery. So he was going to

814
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 2: blame me. So I wrote him out of a letter

815
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 2: saying that of course I'd never done it. And when

816
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,240
Speaker 2: the case came for court, the man never appeared in court,

817
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 2: and the court ruled against him and accepted my account,

818
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 2: and the matter was finished. But I went into the

819
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 2: book of evidence, and I saw that my boss supposedly

820
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 2: had made a statement in the book of evidence saying

821
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 2: I sailed at eleven o'clock in the morning and come

822
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 2: back at eleven o'clock that night, which would have meant

823
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 2: I had the possibility of steed in the car okay,

824
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 2: whereas I sailed at four o'clock in the afternoon and

825
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 2: didn't get back to go with it till two am

826
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: the following morning. Now I knew he had a computer,

827
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: and I knew as a charge of the acountant he

828
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: kept all records. So I wrote to him and said,

829
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 2: if you a record of the sailing on that day,

830
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: and he said he had you sailed at four o'clock

831
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: in the afternoon and you got back at two am

832
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: in the morning. So I wrote to him again, I said, well,

833
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: then tell me this, Why did you make this statement,

834
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: this false statement?

835
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 1: What do you say?

836
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: I never made a statement.

837
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: Oh, they made it up.

838
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 2: They made it up.

839
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: He never made a stake your conviction.

840
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 2: To try and keet me convicted. He never made a

841
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: statement and he was never even asked to make a statement.

842
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: Wow.

843
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 2: And so later, when I got a lot more discovery,

844
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: I discovered there were actually twenty three prosecution witnesses in

845
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: the case had never made any statements, although there were

846
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: statements in the book of evidence attributed to them, and

847
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: had he He told me that if he had been

848
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 2: asked to make a statement, he would have told the truth.

849
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: And had he been asked to make a statement and

850
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 2: told the truth, I couldn't have been convicted. So I

851
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: asked him, wuld he make an affidavit? Would he swear

852
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,479
Speaker 2: an Affidavid? At that and I drafted this and AFFI

853
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 2: David sent it out to him. He got it notorized

854
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 2: and swore and sent it back in to me. So

855
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: when I appeared in the court and the High Court

856
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: and looked for an order for discovery, and the lawyers

857
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: for the state were saying, ah, he's only fishing. He

858
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: hasn't got anything. I said, yes, I have, and I

859
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: produced two copies of this affidavi and I said, I

860
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 2: have here the sworn affidavit of a prosecution witness stating

861
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 2: clearly that he not only did he not make a

862
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,879
Speaker 2: statement attributed to him, but he was never even asked

863
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 2: to make a statement. And I offered it to the

864
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 2: court and the judge wuldn't accept And I offered it

865
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 2: the state lawyers and they wouldn't accept it, because of

866
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 2: course they'd accepted it, they would have had to deal

867
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: with it.

868
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: But wouldn't the judge want to deal with it?

869
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 2: You would think, no, no, no, I don't forget. He

870
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 2: wasn't being I mean, he was looking at me as

871
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 2: if I was a piece of dirt.

872
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:21,479
Speaker 1: So what happened there?

873
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: So I won my order for discovery? And then when

874
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: I got my order for discovery, didn't I get a

875
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 2: photocopy of the notebook off the detective who had claimed

876
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: I had spoken those words in a particular period of interrogation,

877
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 2: and he has warned us on notes and that he

878
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: had recorded the interrogation and recorded these words. And when

879
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,879
Speaker 2: I got his notebook, I saw in the notebook it's

880
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,720
Speaker 2: very clear he wrote the words in before the period

881
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 2: of interrogation in which he claimed.

882
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, that's tricky.

883
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 2: Well there's nothing against me, and they decided this was

884
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 2: what they're going to do.

885
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a very organized, it's very insidious, absolute,

886
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: very coordinated. I mean, the lengths that they went to

887
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: to get the conviction, to protect the conviction, to basically

888
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: run rough shot over the truth are extraordinary to still

889
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: at it.

890
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 2: By the way, which I'll tell you about as we

891
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: get on through this. But in January of nineteen ninety four,

892
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 2: a human rights lawyer offered me his help. When I

893
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 2: took it, we got a legal team, we went to

894
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 2: the Court of Criminal Appeal on the new legislation, and

895
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: the case ran from nineteen ninety four to nineteen ninety five.

896
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: And the police officer who had lied to get me

897
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: convicted was now a retired detective superintendent. He had been

898
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: promoted up to the top. By the way, the cops

899
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 2: who lied in the trial were all promoted, and the

900
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: cop who saved my life and who refused to lie

901
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 2: in the trial, was never promoted.

902
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: Well, I am I not surprised. I mean, this is

903
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: such a web of deceased absolutely lies and bad actors

904
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: and everything else. So your convictions thrown out, your freed right,

905
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: And then you told me a great story about your

906
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: first stay on the outside, or your first was the

907
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: first thing you did when you got out.

908
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 2: Well, when I was released out of the special Court,

909
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 2: out on the street, I was met with a plethora

910
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 2: of media people with microphones and cameras and alls took

911
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: my face, strong questions at me, and I didn't have

912
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 2: time to sort of realize that I was free, if

913
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I didn't have time to

914
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 2: let it sink in. And then I was taken by

915
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,439
Speaker 2: my lawyer to the TV station, the national TV station

916
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 2: where I was. We were interviewed for the news that evening,

917
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 2: and then my friends organized a party. A bunch of

918
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: people had set up a defense committee for me outside

919
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 2: and they took a floor of a pub and organized

920
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 2: a big party. And there was a huge, big party

921
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: going on, and we went to that and that went

922
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 2: on all that evening, and everybody got drunk except me.

923
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: I wasn't drinking, and I stayed with two friends that

924
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: night in their house, and the following morning, when I

925
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: got up, I was the first one up. I went

926
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 2: down to the kitchen and I went out to the

927
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 2: back garden, which was a lovely long back garden, and

928
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: the sunshine was a beautiful day. There were no big

929
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: walls around me. There was flowers and trees and bushes.

930
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: And I walked down the garden and at the bottom

931
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 2: of the garden there was a big old apple tree,

932
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 2: really big old narl. The other way they'd become gnarled

933
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 2: apple tree. And I could hear in the distance the sound,

934
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: the background noises of the city. But I went to

935
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: this tree, and I stood with the tree, and I

936
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 2: realized that and all the time I had been in jail,

937
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: and all the time the trouble I had gone through,

938
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,919
Speaker 2: this tree was growing in this garden on its own,

939
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: with nature, producing its fruit and shedding its leaves every year,

940
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 2: year and year out, doing its own thing, and immune

941
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: from the corruption, the greed, the rat race, the injustice,

942
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: and everything else. And I put my arms around the

943
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 2: trunk of the tree, and I wept, and I released

944
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: And that's when I knew for certain I was free.

945
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: That was in May nineteen ninety five.

946
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 1: So that's twenty one years ago. And then another extraordinary

947
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 1: thing happened in your life, right, which is something I'm

948
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: very well aware of. Well, something or someone I should say, right.

949
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, three years after I got out. And it

950
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 2: was difficult times for a while after I got out,

951
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 2: because it's very difficult to fit into society again when

952
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 2: you're locked up. But I had yoga meditation and I

953
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: used that and a little bit of prayer. And three

954
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,919
Speaker 2: years after, one day I got a phone call from

955
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 2: an American lady who told me her name was Sunny

956
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: Jacob's and she told me she was speaking at a

957
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: meeting three days later where I was, and invited me

958
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 2: to come and hear talk. And I said, what are

959
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 2: you going to talk about? And she said the death

960
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 2: penalty and I said, yes, I'm interested in that. I'll

961
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 2: come along. And I brought two friends and I went

962
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 2: long and it was a room above a public course.

963
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 2: At one o'clock on a Friday, I went up to

964
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: the room. There was nobody there, and after a few

965
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: minutes the door opened to the fire side of the room,

966
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: and this little woman walked in and I walked over

967
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 2: to her and I said, you must be Sonny Jacobs,

968
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 2: and she looked up at me with a big smile,

969
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 2: and that's how we met. And I listened to her

970
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 2: story and I was hugely emotionally upset by listening to it,

971
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: and I knew I had to talk with her. And

972
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 2: I said to her, I need to talk with you,

973
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 2: and she said, got to be good. I need to

974
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 2: talk with you too. But she said, I'm leaving in

975
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 2: an hour. This was on a Friday, So where are

976
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: you going? She says, I have to go to Cork

977
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: for the annual General Meeting of Amnesty into an Irish

978
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: section of Amnist International. I should be there at eight

979
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 2: o'clock tomorrow evening. I said, stay over with me, I said,

980
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 2: and I guarantee I'll get you down there.

981
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: And so she went how far away was Cork?

982
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 2: Four hours strive And she went to Mary Lawler, who

983
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: was the General Secretary of Amnesty at the time, and

984
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 2: asked Mary, because of course she was unsure about whether

985
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 2: she should go with a stranger in the strange country.

986
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 2: And Mary knew me and knew my story, and she said, oh,

987
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: that's wonderful. Thank you, Peter. Yeah, yeah, great. So we

988
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 2: transferred Sunday's case from her car into my audio loppy

989
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 2: and she stayed in my house that night. In the

990
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 2: following morning, we went to my friend on the Cafe

991
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 2: and go away. We went to his place for breakfast.

992
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 2: He asked us to come for breakfast and he said

993
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: to me, are you driving her down the Cork? And

994
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 2: I said yeah. He said, you can't go drive somebody

995
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 2: to Cork and dot your lopy. He said here, and

996
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 2: he reached his hand in his pocket and he gave

997
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 2: me the keys of his Mercedes. He said, just get

998
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: it back to me tomorrow morning. So I drove Sunny

999
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 2: down the Cork in the Mercedes. We traveled in style.

1000
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 2: And as we were on the car fairly crossing the river,

1001
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: Shannon eating a pack lunch which he'd made up for us,

1002
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: she said to me, what's your interest in all of this?

1003
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:57,760
Speaker 2: And I told her that I too had been wrongly

1004
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 2: convicted and sentenced to death. And she said, you got

1005
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 2: through very well. She said, how did you get through

1006
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 2: so easy so well? And I said, yoga and meditation.

1007
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:08,399
Speaker 1: First of all. By the way, this is a hell

1008
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: of a first date, I got to give it up

1009
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: to you for a guy who had been in prison

1010
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: for fifteen years, you got game, okay, And so so

1011
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: that yeah, it's extraordinary, as I keep using that word

1012
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: because I don't know what else other words to use, the

1013
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: fact that Sonny, of course, had also been sentenced to

1014
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: that for a similar crime that happened a continent away,

1015
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: five six thousand miles from where you were charged and convicted.

1016
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: She was charged and convicted. Both of you were actually

1017
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: and absolutely innocent, and you served similar amounts of time

1018
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: in prison. She actually a little bit longer than you,

1019
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: and both of you had more in common than that, right,

1020
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: Both were were committed to a lifestyle of meditation and yoga.

1021
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: You're vegetarians, right. So it's sort of the universe organizing

1022
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: itself in a way that is.

1023
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 2: It was inevitable that we should come together.

1024
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: I think about serendipity as synchronisy what everyone calls metaphysics.

1025
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: And you drive her there, We drive her there, and.

1026
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 2: Now Amnesty had got us two rooms in a hotel

1027
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 2: across from the hotel where the convention was, and each

1028
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,439
Speaker 2: of us lay on a bed separately, and for three

1029
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 2: and a half hours we discussed forgiveness. Well, that was

1030
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 2: the key forgiveness. And then I brought her back to

1031
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 2: her room and she said to me, would I call

1032
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: her when as I leave at six in the morning,

1033
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 2: Would I call her in the morning. I said yes,

1034
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 2: So on the morning, I knocked her door and she

1035
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 2: got up and we said goodbye to each other and

1036
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 2: we'd keep in touch. And I had got my friend's

1037
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 2: car and dropped back to go away.

1038
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: Did you guys kiss? Was there any physical interaction? Hold hands? Exactly?

1039
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 4: What happened was.

1040
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 1: A perfect gentleman.

1041
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 4: He said to me, I don't want you to think

1042
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 4: I'm not attracted to you, but I'm in a kind

1043
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 4: of a relationship, and I like to try to leave

1044
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 4: an honorable life. And that's what clicked in my mind,

1045
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 4: because at that point in my life I had no

1046
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 4: time for bs, you know, and so that impressed me.

1047
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: How long have you been out of prison? By this time,

1048
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: I was out three years? It's almost yeah, three years

1049
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: you were out.

1050
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 2: Oh he was out eight.

1051
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: Right, so you've been out sex and you've been three Okay, fine,

1052
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: that's nothing.

1053
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 2: But we joke and say, you see that she's five

1054
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 2: years older than me. Right, I got it five years

1055
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 2: out before.

1056
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: Me and anyway, okay, so then it was what happened.

1057
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 4: And then we hadn't made any arrangement, but when he

1058
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 4: got home he called me and that's when I knew

1059
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:35,399
Speaker 4: that it had clicked for him too.

1060
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: So then you ultimately were married, which is my favorite

1061
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: part of the story actually.

1062
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 2: But what we'd actually did was about ten years ago.

1063
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: We decided that we were going to exchange vows for

1064
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: each other, and we bought two clatter rings and on

1065
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: the winter, so it's the shortest day of the year,

1066
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 2: because then he said we should do it on the

1067
00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 2: shortest stay of the year because we don't want to

1068
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 2: have a long and ag we gave rings to each

1069
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 2: other in the morning, and we were engaged in the evening,

1070
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 2: and we went down to the seashore with our dogs

1071
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 2: and we exchanged vows on the seashore in the evening time,

1072
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 2: and the sun and the moon were both in the

1073
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 2: sky at the same time, which we thought was very auspicious.

1074
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 2: And then what happened. We were having some difficulty when

1075
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 2: we'd leave the country coming back because we're given to

1076
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 2: Sonny Hassel about whether she could come back into the

1077
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 2: country or not. And this was because she was with me,

1078
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 2: you see. So we decided we were going to get married.

1079
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: But getting married in Ireland is much more bureaucratically difficult

1080
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 2: than it is in America. And we found out that

1081
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: you could apply in New York and get a license

1082
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 2: and get married the next day. But we had no

1083
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 2: money to come to New York. So now at that stage,

1084
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 2: by the way, we were existing on my state pension,

1085
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 2: which is like very small. So the theater that had

1086
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 2: put on The Exonerated the film called contacted us. They

1087
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 2: were doing producers weekend and they wanted us to come

1088
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 2: and speak at two dinners that were hosting, and Sonny says, oh,

1089
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 2: we wanted to go to New York to get married,

1090
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,439
Speaker 2: and they said, you're going to get married in New York,

1091
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 2: we'll host the wedding. So they hosted the wedding. They

1092
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: brought us to New York and they pull us open

1093
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 2: a hotel and they hosted the wedding. So there were

1094
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:19,439
Speaker 2: about one hundred and twenty one hundred and thirty people

1095
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,439
Speaker 2: at the wedding. We only knew six or seven of them,

1096
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 2: and none of our family were there. It was so funny,

1097
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 2: was hilarious. Brookshields, Amy Irving, Marlo Thomas, and Stockard Channing

1098
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 2: were at the wedding. They were four people actresses who

1099
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 2: had played Sonny.

1100
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 1: In the play The Extraordinary Play. Yeah, and Sunny's story

1101
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: is one of six that are profiled in this remarkable

1102
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 1: play in which so many incredible actresses have portrayed you.

1103
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: That's right, And so they showed up at the wedding.

1104
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: So you have this sort of celebrity wedding which adds

1105
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: a certain element of strangeness to the whole thing.

1106
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 2: And the best part of it was that when Sonny

1107
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 2: was asked do you take this man to be your

1108
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 2: awfully weathered husband, the four actresses step forward and said,

1109
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 2: with Sonny.

1110
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 1: We do hilarious, that's amazing, Oh my god, funny. So

1111
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: you may actually be married to five women at this point.

1112
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: Hard to say, and I'm not judging you. I'm just saying,

1113
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: so you might want to have somebody look into it.

1114
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: So there's a wonderful announcement if you google Peter Pringle

1115
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: and Sonny Jacob's wedding. My belief I can't prove this

1116
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: is that you're the only two Death Row exgneries who

1117
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:33,919
Speaker 1: have ever been married after exonerations, because there are very

1118
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: few women who've been sentenced to death and even many

1119
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 1: fewer who have been exonerated, So you really hit the jackpot.

1120
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,280
Speaker 1: And so I do want to put in a plug

1121
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: because now Sonny and Peter operate a phenomenal organization called

1122
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: the Sunny Sanctuary and it is sort of a haven

1123
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,760
Speaker 1: or whatever you want to call it where they bring

1124
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: a new league exoner rated people over to the coast

1125
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 1: of Ireland and help them reintegrate, right this is probably

1126
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: the best word, and get their get their lives back,

1127
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: and get their their spirits back, so to speak.

1128
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's kind of healing from the inside out.

1129
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 2: We helped them to release the anger and busness that

1130
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 2: they carry over what was done to them.

1131
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: And paint the picture of the Sunny Sanctuary for people

1132
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: out there who can't really visualize.

1133
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 2: Okay, well we managed. We managed to rent a three

1134
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: bedroom house on fourteen acres on the side of a

1135
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 2: hill overlooking a lake and there's there's hazel woods down

1136
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 2: to the lake and each bedroom is on sweet so

1137
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 2: there's every person that comes has their own bathroom and toilet.

1138
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 1: And it's on the coast.

1139
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:49,760
Speaker 2: It's four miles from the sea, but it's it's only

1140
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 2: just above the lake, and it's in a very it's

1141
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 2: at the end of the road. The nearest store is

1142
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 2: six miles away.

1143
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,280
Speaker 1: There's more than a few animals there right, Oh.

1144
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 2: Yes, we have. Let us see now we have three

1145
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 2: cats and four dogs, four hens, and five goats and

1146
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 2: tree something like that. I jokingly call it the menagerie.

1147
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 2: Sometimes we milk the goats and Sunny processes the milk,

1148
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 2: and Sonny makes wonderful goat cheese, three different types of

1149
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 2: goat cheese. So we also have what they call a polytunnel,

1150
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,439
Speaker 2: which is the equivalent of a greenhouse, where we grow

1151
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:28,399
Speaker 2: around vegetables. So when people come to us, we feed

1152
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 2: them on an organic food and organic free range of eggs,

1153
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,240
Speaker 2: and they have milk and cheese, homemade goat cheese, organic

1154
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 2: goat cheese.

1155
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: And do you teach them meditation yoga?

1156
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, we share with them. We don't conduct therapies

1157
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 2: as such. But what happens is that when they come

1158
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 2: at first, they will tell us what has happened to them,

1159
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 2: They release the things they need to release, and then

1160
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 2: we can share with them how we dealt with the

1161
00:56:56,760 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 2: issues that are causing them problems and opened the way

1162
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:04,399
Speaker 2: for them to the realization that actually they're more than

1163
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:08,479
Speaker 2: just an ex hoonay. They're not just a person who's

1164
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 2: been in prison. They're more than that. The fact that

1165
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 2: they were wrongfully in prison is just an episode in

1166
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 2: their life, and it's an episode they can put behind

1167
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 2: them now. It always travels with them, but they don't

1168
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 2: have to live in the past, and they have an

1169
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 2: opportunity of realizing themselves as full human beings. And we

1170
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 2: bring them out and socialize with our friends, and we

1171
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 2: go to events and to the theater, and so they

1172
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 2: get a chance to mingle with people as ordinary people.

1173
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 1: It's so inspiring to me and to many of us

1174
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: who work in the Innocence movement that a very large

1175
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:47,439
Speaker 1: percentage of x honarees are driven to help others who

1176
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 1: have gone through a similar ordeal. And so it's I

1177
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: think the most powerful thing I've witnessed, and I always

1178
00:57:56,240 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 1: asked this question yesterday, is the coming together of gunaries

1179
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: and the sharing of the experiences and the healing that

1180
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 1: comes from that and from being with others who are

1181
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 1: the only people alive who can possibly begin to understand

1182
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: what you've been through even though every situation is unique

1183
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: and every story is unique, but still the experience is

1184
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: more similar than not. And it's so wonderfully inspiring to

1185
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 1: hear the stories, both of your stories and the fact

1186
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: that they're now one, and what you've done and how

1187
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 1: you've turned this unimaginable set of circumstances into such a

1188
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: force for positivity and change and good is something that

1189
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: I think everyone who's listening and so many others are

1190
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 1: going to be affected by, and it's inspiring me and

1191
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 1: so many others to want to do more and help more,

1192
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: or as many as we possibly can. I should say

1193
00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: before we have to wrap this up, if any of

1194
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 1: you are listening now and haven't heard the Sunny Jacob's episode,

1195
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: I strongly encourage everyone to check out the Sunny Jacob's episode.

1196
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 1: But before we sign off, Peter, are there any last

1197
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 1: words that you'd like to share with the audience.

1198
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 2: Learn not to carry anger. Anger is a natural phenomenon.

1199
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 2: We get angry, I get angry, everybody gets angry, but

1200
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 2: don't hold it. Don't hold it, don't hate because hate

1201
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 2: consumes the hater, and anger consumes the angry person. That

1202
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 2: doesn't consume the person you're angry against and it damaged

1203
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 2: your health, let it go and try and be in

1204
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 2: the spirit of forgiveness, because that's where your real strength is.

1205
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 2: Our real strength is in the fact that we decided

1206
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 2: we would move towards healing and forgiveness and let go

1207
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 2: of all those negative emotions. And I wish everyone the best.

1208
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

1209
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud

1210
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,439
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

1211
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1212
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

1213
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

1214
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1215
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1216
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1217
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1218
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1219
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company. Number one