WEBVTT - Bird Flu - Lab 087 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.920 Today, we're talking about something that has been making a 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.480 lot of noise, and that's the bird flu. 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:09.800 From wild birds to backyard chickens to the price of eggs. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:10.480 Eggs are like. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:15.040 Caviall right now, this disease is affecting millions, and it's 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:17.840 spreading faster than we can keep up with. This is 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:19.720 not just about the birds, though, There's a lot more 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:22.120 on the table, because as you know, we're all connected. 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.040 If you're drinking raw milk or you're feeding your pets 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:27.639 a raw meat diet, you need to listen to this 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:29.240 lab for some things to consider. 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:31.440 That's absolutely right. This is a good one for everybody 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.199 to listen to because avian influenza or bird flu is 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.920 impacting food security, the economy, and potentially even human health. 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:44.680 I'm TT and I'm Zachiah, and this is Dope Labs. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.280 Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.280 science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.520 Arizekiah, this is your wheelhouse, and I can and see 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:03.680 you getting worked up. Let's not get ahead of ourselves, 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:06.040 and let's set the stage with the recitation. 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.360 What do we know? I know, you know a lot. 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:09.880 I don't know. 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:11.080 I don't know much. 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.039 Well, I'm gonna rent it down. Okay, we know that 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.720 the bird flu or avian influenza. You know, it's sometimes 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.520 called AI for short. That's not artificial intelligence. It's been 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.160 around for a long time. But the newest thing is 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.920 how quickly it's spreading, and that is spread to humans. 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:28.920 Now, okay, so what do we want to know? 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:30.679 Well, I know you got some things you want to know. 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:31.960 I've got a lot. 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:33.440 Of things I want to know. Do I need to 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:36.319 be worried about getting the bird flu. I'm eating a 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:38.880 lot of chicken, and I'm eating a lot of eggs. 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.160 I love eggs. Oh my god. 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:42.920 Yeah, I saw you know you had a lot of 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:44.959 quail eggs and brussels. No, I don't want to put 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:45.760 your business out there. 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:47.160 Let me tell you something. 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:49.000 I don't know what it is about quail eggs, but 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:50.720 they had them a lot at the place I was 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.800 eating in Brussels, and I was sucking those things down. 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:55.600 Throwing them down. 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.920 I was eating them like popcorn. That's so bad. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:06.520 That's nobody's business. Well, maybe it depends. I also want 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.400 to know, is this something that the general public should 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:11.640 be thinking about, Like how much of a threat is 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.640 this to humans? And how contagious is it? If it 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:15.239 is a threat? 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:17.480 And right, so I also want to know what's the 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:22.120 plan for prevention? Are we too late? I really hope 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:26.240 we're not. I mean, this is all feeling very familiar 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:29.440 to the pandemic that shall not be named. 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:32.240 Yes, that's right, and these are big questions and we 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.200 should save these for our guest experts. So let's jump 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:35.919 into the dissection. 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.960 Our guest today is a veterinarian and an epidemiologist. 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:42.519 Hi, I'm doctor Maurice Potuski. 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:45.200 I'm an associate professor at the UC David School of 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:46.359 Veterinary Medicine. 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.680 You are actually very perfect for the questions that we 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.240 have about bird flu. Can you just bring us up 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.160 to speed with a general overview of what avian influenza 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:57.240 actually is? 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:03.240 Yeah, so big picture, and when you think about avian 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:05.680 influenza and the bird flu and just tried putting it 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:09.680 into context. Homo sapiens, we're about three hundred thousand years old. 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.000 We were hunter gathers for about two hundred ninety thousand years, 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:15.200 and the last ten thousand years. 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:16.919 Or so we had that cultural revolution. 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:22.799 Humans became sedentary and we started domesticating animals, including poultry. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.360 So if you look at the last ten thousand years 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.480 of animal domestication, no matter how you look at it, 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.480 this is the largest animal disease outbreak we've ever had. 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:34.880 So if you look at it geographically, it's on six 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:38.440 to seven continents, including Antarctica. If you look at it 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:42.600 species wise, it's in wild birds, it's in domestic birds, 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.200 it's in wild mammals, it's in domestic mammals. It's now 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.200 moving into humans. If you look at it in the environment, 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.880 it's in dairy lagoons, it's in wetlands, it's in human wastewater. 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.920 So from a kind of historic perspective, we've never seen 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:58.440 anything like this before. 0:03:58.880 --> 0:03:59.920 It's global nature. 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.760 Poultry is the most consumed animal protein on the planet, 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:05.040 so you know, when you think about it from a 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:09.840 food security perspective, there is a significant impact how that 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.640 this disease is having on our what historically has been 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:20.680 a relatively economically priced and stablely priced product, poultry, eggs, turkeys, chickens, 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:21.159 et cetera. 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:25.120 Before we move on, I'm just going to go back 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:30.520 to a domestic chicken. What is a domestic chicken is 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.360 this chicken on leashes, chickens that you know you curl 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:35.120 up in bed with. 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.200 A domestic chicken is an animal that's been domesticated. 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:42.680 Those are animals where we control the reproduction. 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.400 But from a practical perspective, those are animals that we 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.800 either have as pets, so back our chickens, for example, 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:55.839 or animals that produce food for us, so dairy cows, 0:04:56.440 --> 0:05:01.279 beef cattle, pigs, turkeys, broiler the chicken meat that you 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:03.440 and I might eat, and layers the. 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:06.360 Chickens that produce the eggs that you and might eat. 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.680 Wow, you said, this is the largest animal outbreak we've had, 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:11.960 And I want to understand, like, how worried should we 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:14.720 be about this? Because is this just for farmers that 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.719 should be concerned. I've been hearing and seeing the term 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:22.400 high path AI, which means high pathogenicity avian influenza, and 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:24.640 I know that means it's daily to the birds, But 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:25.440 what about us. 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:31.640 From a human perspective, there is absolutely risk. It's primarily 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.080 occupational in the sense that the human that died in 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:38.960 Louisiana had some backyard chickens and was probably exposed from 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:42.279 wild birds that transmitted the virus to his chickens, and 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:47.080 he didn't have proper ppe personal protective equipment, and he 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.400 ended up being hospitalized and died from that. That gene type, 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.800 or that kind of type of the virus is the 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:55.960 most ubiquitous version of. 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.680 Hypath ai in the US and wild birds right now. 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.280 Okay, So the person who died to Louisiana, they did 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:05.400 have underlying medical conditions, right, So it's possible that it 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:08.000 was harder for them to fight the disease. But in 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:12.239 this economy and with this health system, the US health system, 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.200 who doesn't have underlying conditions, I mean, I feel like 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:17.080 everybody does. 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:20.320 Was there any other detection in humans? 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:24.520 There was a situation on six Nevada dairies where the 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:31.280 virus spread from wild birds wild waterfowl into dairy workers. 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:34.360 Two reasons we actually even caught that virus because normally 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.320 the virus causes a drop in milk production and a 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:42.320 reduction in the movement of dairy cows. But this specific 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.800 strain didn't cause any clinical signs in the cows, but 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:50.359 did cause these very significant conjunctible eye infections. And I 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.919 think you know, historically we've looked at those eye infections 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.320 even like, oh, it's just conjunctivitis, and we kind of 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.760 just kind of poop potted a little. But I've seen 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:02.719 those pictures, and as a parent, if I saw anyone 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:04.880 that I knew with that eye infection like that, I'm like, 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.359 you need to be hostile. So it has gotten to 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.040 a stage where when you think about risk, sure, you 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.640 have occupational risks for dairy workers and poultry workers and 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.560 people that potentially have backyard chickens, but we're also seeing 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:22.880 now cats domestic cats that are infected that are most 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:27.520 likely getting exposed from the consumption of infected raw turkey 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:28.720 that's being sold to them. 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:33.120 Gosh, this is this is all just mind blowing for 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.080 me because these are all things that I've never heard of. 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:41.440 Chickens with bronchitis, cats, cows with pink eye. It's a wild, 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:43.560 wild world, and I mean, I feel like so many 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:45.680 people don't know that these things are occurring. Can you 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.640 tell us a little bit more about the actual virus. 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.240 The virus is an RNA virus. The virus is a 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:56.800 segmented virus, has this amazing potential to not only mutate 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.520 but reassort. You know, we have chromosomes, we have twenty 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.760 three pairs the chromosomes in our body. High path ai 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:07.720 has seven segments of nucleic acid RNA. And if you 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.160 have a co infection, So if you have, for example, 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:14.760 let's say I'm carrying a human influenza, and let's say 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:16.400 I get exposed to a chicken that. 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:17.720 Has hi path ai. 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.400 Now one of my lung cells, for example, could be 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:26.880 coinfected with two types of influenza, and you can get 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:29.560 this reassortment. The worst get start is you get this 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.640 reassortment that creates a highly virulent, highly infectious type that 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:33.920 we've never been exposed to. 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:36.920 So if I have seasonal flu, and that's a normal 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.240 human flu we see peaking in the wintertime, maybe because 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.840 of where I work or my hobbies, I might have 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.840 chickens I'm exposed to high path ai. So now have 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:49.320 two flues, and those flues being in me together, you 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:51.440 know those viruses are close together, they're able to swap 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:55.559 their genetic information. Now you need exactly the right conditions 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.040 to happen. But I would consider that to be like 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:02.080 the genetic lottery. Well, I don't want to hit those lists. 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:03.920 I don't want to hit those numbers. 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:08.280 But the worry is that the virus is so ubiquitous 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:12.760 that that these types of events are becoming less and 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:17.400 less rare, and eventually, you know, we're gonna we're gonna 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.000 roll snake eyes and we're gonna get something that we 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:20.959 didn't want it all. 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.360 Okay, we've talked about how this could happen and get worse, 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.640 But how do we prevent it? Can we stop it now? 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.000 Or is the toothpaste already out of the tube. 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:33.120 We don't know how to control this, and a lot 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:35.320 of the approaches that are being used, just in my 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:37.520 you know, opinion for the half a penny that my 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:41.880 opinion's worth, are are really just kind of hashing that 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.559 the same ideas that we've done for the last three years, 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.439 and those haven't worked right, and we're you know, kind 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.080 of recycling some of those same ideas and in my 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:51.880 mind not thinking about. 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:53.560 This a little more holistically. 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.400 You have just the right background for thinking of this, 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:03.680 So more than half a penny for you thoughts. I'm wondering, 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:08.320 from your perspective as somebody who's experienced in surveillance, disease modeling, 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:12.440 preparedness planning, where are we like when I think about 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:17.280 rippling effects what you're talking about. There's a biology, yes, 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.320 but there are some social implications here, Like I'm also 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:22.800 thinking about what you just said about our cheapest proteins, 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.120 and when we think about where our economy is right now, 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.679 when we think about people who may be struggling financially, 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:32.319 how do they afford to eat if we take chicken, eggs, turkey, 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.520 and maybe dairy, when we take those things off the table, 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.160 if there's an infection, what does that mean for us? 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.920 I mean, I'm not a historian, but but we've never 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:48.319 had something this ubiquitous in this many different species. If 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.880 you look at African swine fever, which is a virus 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.520 that hasn't come into North America yet, that has moved very. 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:55.559 Close to our borders. 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.280 Up until maybe a decade ago, swine was the most 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:03.920 consumed animal protein on the planet. And then China and 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.840 other parts of the world had an epic African swine 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.560 fever outbreak that I believe resulted in the depopulation or 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.400 ethanasia of about a third of the Chinese pig supply. 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.760 And then from that, you know, poultry became the most 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:21.160 consumed animal protein for two reasons. First of all, it's 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:23.600 a little less expensive to produce it, and second of all, 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.680 it didn't have the same risk because of African swine fever. 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.400 We're kind of at that point where it's like, Okay, 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.000 we're at about you know, eight billion plus people on 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.679 the planet. We need to figure out how to do that. 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.880 Poultry has a lower environmental impact from what we call 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.199 feed conversion ratio the amount of grain that we need 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.320 to feed a chicken to get to get protein out 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:46.679 of it than other food animals, but there's still an 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:47.439 impact there. 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.640 So if we don't figure this out, we're. 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:51.960 Definitely going to have to move on to you know, 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.640 Plan B or Plan C when it comes to kind 0:11:54.640 --> 0:12:05.200 of global food security. 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:12.360 What are some of the other plants. If we can't 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.160 get bird flu under control, what else is on the table? 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:20.040 So avian influenza the main reservoir, the main source of 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.640 the virus are wild waterfowl like ducks and geese, which 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:27.920 are are migratory, So swine flu also came from wildbirds 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:32.040 wild waterfowl. I'm from the Central Valley of California. That's 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.040 where we have a thousand dairies, That's where we have 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.280 six hundred poultry facilities and in the fall and winter. 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.320 That's also where six to eight million wild waterfowl migrate 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:45.520 down into that central valley, and those farms obviously don't 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:50.080 change locations, but because waterfowl our migratory, the risk around 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.920 those farms changes literally from day to day, week to week, 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:54.600 month to month, and. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:55.240 Year to year. 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:55.760 Wow. 0:12:55.920 --> 0:13:01.240 So one of the real challenges is trying to understand 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.920 where the risk is, and that's kind of a moving target. 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.640 We have in the United States about forty four thousand 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:12.160 commercial poultry facilities, about sixty thousand commercial swine facilities, over 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:17.000 twenty thousand dairies. Historically, we've never really thought about where 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.199 we put our farms other than we want our farms 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.160 to be in areas where the land's inexpensive. We want 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.120 our farms to be in areas that are flat because 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.880 it's just easier logistically, and we want our farms close 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.520 to train tracks so we can ship product and soybeans 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.920 and corn and eggs and meat back and forth. We 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:39.520 never really thought about putting our farms in geographies that 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:43.760 are somewhat isolated from waterfowl, and that's been one of 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.040 the real challenges to kind of address this. 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:50.640 Wow, this is feeling like a lot, you know, and 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.600 like from your vantage point, I don't know if it 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.040 feels like something we can get our arms around. 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.480 Like, how is all of this being tracked? 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:03.120 Is it tracked at the state level, is it tracked 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.680 at the federal level? Is wildlife included? Or is it 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.560 just the commercial cultry that you're talking about? Are you 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.720 do you feel confident about how things are being surveyed 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:14.720 or in tract? 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.480 I think so, you know, you're getting to a question 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:20.840 that I'm really passionate about, but for most people is 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:27.040 really boring. Is kind of information networks, relational databases, how 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.280 we can connect the dots to your point, And that's 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:31.040 a real challenge. 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.560 So this is a global disease. 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.840 But if I go onto USDA's website for the Animal 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.960 Plant Health Inspection Service and hypath Ai, they don't tell 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.000 me anything about what's going on in Canada. So if 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.320 I'm a farmer in Minnesota, it behooves me to understand 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:47.200 what's going on in Canada, and vice versa. If I 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:49.920 go on to the Canadian Food Inspection Agencies website, they 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:51.760 don't have anything about what's going on in the US. 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:55.560 So this is a perfect example of why. 0:14:55.360 --> 0:15:00.040 We need these information networks between farmers and governments and 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.640 different countries need to be connected to each other, and 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:04.520 they're not right. 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:05.880 We're not talking to each other. 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:11.320 So absolutely we have a real problem when it comes 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:15.960 to kind of sharing information and collaboration and trust and 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.640 all those things. And you know, I'm an epidemiologist and 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.640 a veterinarian, but I really want to drag more social 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.120 scientists and so what I do because ultimately it's like. 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.200 Why why is there this this friction? 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:33.840 So we do have this kind of lack of information sharing, 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:36.760 and that is that is not an easy thing to 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.160 solve because that at some level is it goes to 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:44.280 you know, trust and relationship building and collaboration, and that, 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.480 to me is maybe the biggest frustration of all of 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:49.840 this is that we have this siloing of data. So 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.440 we're taking a good idea trying to protect farmers to 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:58.080 an illogical conclusion where that data is not being shared, integrated, 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:00.520 and leveraged in any kind of bust away. 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.960 At this point, it's so interesting because like when I 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.880 think about something like this, I say, when I'm going 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.400 out of town, I tell my neighbor I'm not going 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:11.120 to be home, so that they could be on the lookout. 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:13.960 If I get a package, take it off the doorstep. 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.880 If my house catches on fire, call nine one one 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.960 and call me, like, be on the lookout. That's how 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:24.080 we should be seeing ourselves as you know, citizens of 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.080 this globe, like, as neighbors, like we should be sharing 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.760 this information because it is to the benefit of everyone, 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.600 and it's just so it's so unfortunate that we're not there. 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:37.520 This is a thing TT and I talk about a 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:42.040 lot around behavioral psychology. Even when we think about communication, 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.680 how we talk about these things affects how people think 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.600 about them, how they link them to themselves or if 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.560 they say that's for other people. We know these things, 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:55.480 We know our most vulnerable populations. When we protect them, 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.360 we protect all of us. What's the deal, doctor. 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.720 Petski, The USDA and the farmers are they need help? 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:07.760 And dairy workers right now, highest occupational risk dairy workers, 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.680 most of them are undocumented, They live in mixed generational homes, 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.119 mixed familial homes. So the reality is we're doing the 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:20.400 least amount of surveillance on the folks that are kind 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.240 of the tip of the you know, potential pandemic spear. 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.440 So God forbid, one of those guys or people comes home, 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:33.280 they're infected, and the virus continues to move around in 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:37.359 that in that physical home and mutates, and now it 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.200 goes you know, through an aerosol route human to human, 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:42.639 and we just don't have a surveillance system set up 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.760 to to kind of capture that before it gets out 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:50.040 of hand. At this point, I think, ultimately, if we're 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:55.960 not gonna be collaborative on how these problems are dealt with, 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.560 we're going to kind of go in circles. As far 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.160 as the solutions. We're not bringing in new concepts, new ideas. 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.520 We don't have people that are experts in social science, 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.560 we don't have people that are experts in wildlife biology, 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.840 remote sensing. I mean, there's just a lot of leverage 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.520 points that we could be integrating into the solutions, and 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:17.600 that's been a real challenge. 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.359 I love this point because I think that when folks 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.160 think about science, that they think of it in those 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:27.240 siloed ways where okay, this doesn't touch that, but it 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.080 all touches each other, because that means going to show 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:32.760 up in your grocery store. And even when we think 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.440 about the policy side of all of this, like all 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.600 of these things, you need people who understand who are 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.280 working in policy so that as the science is developing, 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.400 as you're learning more, as data is being shared, hopefully 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:46.399 you know there are people who can pull the right 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.119 levers to make sure that these regulations are passed so 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.760 that we have a healthier environment. I think these are 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:58.000 the things that worry folks. They worry about whether or 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.760 not they're going to be protected by our systems, our 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.560 supply chains, or if the bottom line is the one 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.280 that is going to be ruling the day. 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:09.600 Should folks be. 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:12.800 Worried about the chicken that they're buying from the grocery store. 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.200 Should they be worried about their eggs? Should they be 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.760 worried about their meat? Is this something that we should 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.320 be thinking about on a regular basis now? 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:21.199 Yeah, So. 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.280 When it comes to the food safety aspect of it, 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:29.119 so dairy products, unpasteuriz dairy products one hundred percent we 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:29.920 should be worried about. 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.240 So in my mind, that's reason, you know, a million 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:33.880 and seven. 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.159 Why we shouldn't be consuming raw dairy products. I know 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:39.439 some people say, well, it's my risk and I can 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.800 do what I want. To that point, if we're dealing 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:45.640 with an infectious disease. We live in a culture where 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.720 we're interacting with you know, sometimes thousands of people every 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.920 single day. I know some people have said, well, we're 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:56.760 not seeing in raw dairy milk any kind of person 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:01.800 to person spread and we haven't seen in any significant, 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:04.560 you know, disease or anything like that, to which my 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.439 own personal feeling is like, Okay, we have feral cats 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:12.200 around dairy facilities that are dying from drinking being exposed 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:12.960 to this raw milk. 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.239 Cats are mammals, they're they're related to us. 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.960 When diseases start spreading, they are much more difficult to 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.840 deal with than if we prevent them in the first place. So, 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.800 from an epidemiological perspective, from a public health perspective, the 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.600 the risks of consumption of raw milk, especially in a 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.800 state like California where we have hundreds of dairies that 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.440 are infected. At this point, we know the virus is 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.040 in the highest load in dairy milk, so I think 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:41.800 there's a risk there. 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.000 Now when you look at eggs. 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:48.440 Fortunately, when chickens get hypathai, they typically die. And I 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.320 say that fortunately from a food safety perspective, not from 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:57.440 a veterinary perspective, understand. Yeah, but they but they'll they'll 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:01.159 die and they'll stop producing eggs. And even if they 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:04.600 are producing you know, an egg or two before they 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:08.480 ultimately die, the reality is the egg is not really 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.399 the tissue compartment that the virus kind of localizes in. 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:14.800 So you know, I've had people say, well, can the 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:17.679 virus you know, be present on the feces that's outside 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.320 of the egg and then go through the pores into 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:22.840 the egg and all those things are certainly possible, but 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:25.760 it's just such a low risk that I don't really 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:28.159 see eggs. To me, the bigger risk with eggs is 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:31.880