1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about something that has been making a 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: lot of noise, and that's the bird flu. 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 2: From wild birds to backyard chickens to the price of eggs. 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 3: Eggs are like. 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: Caviall right now, this disease is affecting millions, and it's 6 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 2: spreading faster than we can keep up with. This is 7 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: not just about the birds, though, There's a lot more 8 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 2: on the table, because as you know, we're all connected. 9 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: If you're drinking raw milk or you're feeding your pets 10 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 2: a raw meat diet, you need to listen to this 11 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: lab for some things to consider. 12 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: That's absolutely right. This is a good one for everybody 13 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: to listen to because avian influenza or bird flu is 14 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: impacting food security, the economy, and potentially even human health. 15 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: I'm TT and I'm Zachiah, and this is Dope Labs. 16 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore 17 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. 18 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: Arizekiah, this is your wheelhouse, and I can and see 19 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: you getting worked up. Let's not get ahead of ourselves, 20 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 2: and let's set the stage with the recitation. 21 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 3: What do we know? I know, you know a lot. 22 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. 23 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 3: I don't know much. 24 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna rent it down. Okay, we know that 25 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: the bird flu or avian influenza. You know, it's sometimes 26 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: called AI for short. That's not artificial intelligence. It's been 27 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: around for a long time. But the newest thing is 28 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: how quickly it's spreading, and that is spread to humans. 29 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 3: Now, okay, so what do we want to know? 30 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: Well, I know you got some things you want to know. 31 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 3: I've got a lot. 32 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: Of things I want to know. Do I need to 33 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 2: be worried about getting the bird flu. I'm eating a 34 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: lot of chicken, and I'm eating a lot of eggs. 35 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 3: I love eggs. Oh my god. 36 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw you know you had a lot of 37 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: quail eggs and brussels. No, I don't want to put 38 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: your business out there. 39 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 3: Let me tell you something. 40 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 2: I don't know what it is about quail eggs, but 41 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: they had them a lot at the place I was 42 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: eating in Brussels, and I was sucking those things down. 43 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: Throwing them down. 44 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 3: I was eating them like popcorn. That's so bad. 45 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: That's nobody's business. Well, maybe it depends. I also want 46 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: to know, is this something that the general public should 47 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: be thinking about, Like how much of a threat is 48 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: this to humans? And how contagious is it? If it 49 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: is a threat? 50 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: And right, so I also want to know what's the 51 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: plan for prevention? Are we too late? I really hope 52 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: we're not. I mean, this is all feeling very familiar 53 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 2: to the pandemic that shall not be named. 54 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, and these are big questions and we 55 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: should save these for our guest experts. So let's jump 56 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: into the dissection. 57 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 2: Our guest today is a veterinarian and an epidemiologist. 58 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 4: Hi, I'm doctor Maurice Potuski. 59 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 5: I'm an associate professor at the UC David School of 60 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 5: Veterinary Medicine. 61 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: You are actually very perfect for the questions that we 62 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: have about bird flu. Can you just bring us up 63 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: to speed with a general overview of what avian influenza 64 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: actually is? 65 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, so big picture, and when you think about avian 66 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 5: influenza and the bird flu and just tried putting it 67 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 5: into context. Homo sapiens, we're about three hundred thousand years old. 68 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 5: We were hunter gathers for about two hundred ninety thousand years, 69 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 5: and the last ten thousand years. 70 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 4: Or so we had that cultural revolution. 71 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 5: Humans became sedentary and we started domesticating animals, including poultry. 72 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 5: So if you look at the last ten thousand years 73 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 5: of animal domestication, no matter how you look at it, 74 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 5: this is the largest animal disease outbreak we've ever had. 75 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 5: So if you look at it geographically, it's on six 76 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 5: to seven continents, including Antarctica. If you look at it 77 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 5: species wise, it's in wild birds, it's in domestic birds, 78 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 5: it's in wild mammals, it's in domestic mammals. It's now 79 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 5: moving into humans. If you look at it in the environment, 80 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 5: it's in dairy lagoons, it's in wetlands, it's in human wastewater. 81 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 5: So from a kind of historic perspective, we've never seen 82 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 5: anything like this before. 83 00:03:58,880 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 4: It's global nature. 84 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 5: Poultry is the most consumed animal protein on the planet, 85 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 5: so you know, when you think about it from a 86 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 5: food security perspective, there is a significant impact how that 87 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 5: this disease is having on our what historically has been 88 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 5: a relatively economically priced and stablely priced product, poultry, eggs, turkeys, chickens, 89 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 5: et cetera. 90 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: Before we move on, I'm just going to go back 91 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: to a domestic chicken. What is a domestic chicken is 92 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 2: this chicken on leashes, chickens that you know you curl 93 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: up in bed with. 94 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 5: A domestic chicken is an animal that's been domesticated. 95 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 4: Those are animals where we control the reproduction. 96 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 5: But from a practical perspective, those are animals that we 97 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 5: either have as pets, so back our chickens, for example, 98 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 5: or animals that produce food for us, so dairy cows, 99 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 5: beef cattle, pigs, turkeys, broiler the chicken meat that you 100 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 5: and I might eat, and layers the. 101 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 4: Chickens that produce the eggs that you and might eat. 102 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: Wow, you said, this is the largest animal outbreak we've had, 103 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: And I want to understand, like, how worried should we 104 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: be about this? Because is this just for farmers that 105 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: should be concerned. I've been hearing and seeing the term 106 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: high path AI, which means high pathogenicity avian influenza, and 107 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: I know that means it's daily to the birds, But 108 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: what about us. 109 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 5: From a human perspective, there is absolutely risk. It's primarily 110 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 5: occupational in the sense that the human that died in 111 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 5: Louisiana had some backyard chickens and was probably exposed from 112 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 5: wild birds that transmitted the virus to his chickens, and 113 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 5: he didn't have proper ppe personal protective equipment, and he 114 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 5: ended up being hospitalized and died from that. That gene type, 115 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 5: or that kind of type of the virus is the 116 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 5: most ubiquitous version of. 117 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 4: Hypath ai in the US and wild birds right now. 118 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 2: Okay, So the person who died to Louisiana, they did 119 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: have underlying medical conditions, right, So it's possible that it 120 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: was harder for them to fight the disease. But in 121 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,239 Speaker 2: this economy and with this health system, the US health system, 122 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: who doesn't have underlying conditions, I mean, I feel like 123 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: everybody does. 124 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 3: Was there any other detection in humans? 125 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 5: There was a situation on six Nevada dairies where the 126 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 5: virus spread from wild birds wild waterfowl into dairy workers. 127 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 5: Two reasons we actually even caught that virus because normally 128 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 5: the virus causes a drop in milk production and a 129 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 5: reduction in the movement of dairy cows. But this specific 130 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 5: strain didn't cause any clinical signs in the cows, but 131 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 5: did cause these very significant conjunctible eye infections. And I 132 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 5: think you know, historically we've looked at those eye infections 133 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 5: even like, oh, it's just conjunctivitis, and we kind of 134 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 5: just kind of poop potted a little. But I've seen 135 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 5: those pictures, and as a parent, if I saw anyone 136 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 5: that I knew with that eye infection like that, I'm like, 137 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 5: you need to be hostile. So it has gotten to 138 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 5: a stage where when you think about risk, sure, you 139 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 5: have occupational risks for dairy workers and poultry workers and 140 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 5: people that potentially have backyard chickens, but we're also seeing 141 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 5: now cats domestic cats that are infected that are most 142 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 5: likely getting exposed from the consumption of infected raw turkey 143 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 5: that's being sold to them. 144 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: Gosh, this is this is all just mind blowing for 145 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: me because these are all things that I've never heard of. 146 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: Chickens with bronchitis, cats, cows with pink eye. It's a wild, 147 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: wild world, and I mean, I feel like so many 148 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: people don't know that these things are occurring. Can you 149 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: tell us a little bit more about the actual virus. 150 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 5: The virus is an RNA virus. The virus is a 151 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 5: segmented virus, has this amazing potential to not only mutate 152 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 5: but reassort. You know, we have chromosomes, we have twenty 153 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 5: three pairs the chromosomes in our body. High path ai 154 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 5: has seven segments of nucleic acid RNA. And if you 155 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 5: have a co infection, So if you have, for example, 156 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 5: let's say I'm carrying a human influenza, and let's say 157 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 5: I get exposed to a chicken that. 158 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 4: Has hi path ai. 159 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 5: Now one of my lung cells, for example, could be 160 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 5: coinfected with two types of influenza, and you can get 161 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 5: this reassortment. The worst get start is you get this 162 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 5: reassortment that creates a highly virulent, highly infectious type that 163 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 5: we've never been exposed to. 164 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: So if I have seasonal flu, and that's a normal 165 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: human flu we see peaking in the wintertime, maybe because 166 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: of where I work or my hobbies, I might have 167 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: chickens I'm exposed to high path ai. So now have 168 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: two flues, and those flues being in me together, you 169 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: know those viruses are close together, they're able to swap 170 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: their genetic information. Now you need exactly the right conditions 171 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: to happen. But I would consider that to be like 172 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: the genetic lottery. Well, I don't want to hit those lists. 173 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: I don't want to hit those numbers. 174 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 5: But the worry is that the virus is so ubiquitous 175 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 5: that that these types of events are becoming less and 176 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 5: less rare, and eventually, you know, we're gonna we're gonna 177 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 5: roll snake eyes and we're gonna get something that we 178 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:20,959 Speaker 5: didn't want it all. 179 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: Okay, we've talked about how this could happen and get worse, 180 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 2: But how do we prevent it? Can we stop it now? 181 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: Or is the toothpaste already out of the tube. 182 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 5: We don't know how to control this, and a lot 183 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 5: of the approaches that are being used, just in my 184 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 5: you know, opinion for the half a penny that my 185 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 5: opinion's worth, are are really just kind of hashing that 186 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 5: the same ideas that we've done for the last three years, 187 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 5: and those haven't worked right, and we're you know, kind 188 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 5: of recycling some of those same ideas and in my 189 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 5: mind not thinking about. 190 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 4: This a little more holistically. 191 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: You have just the right background for thinking of this, 192 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: So more than half a penny for you thoughts. I'm wondering, 193 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: from your perspective as somebody who's experienced in surveillance, disease modeling, 194 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: preparedness planning, where are we like when I think about 195 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: rippling effects what you're talking about. There's a biology, yes, 196 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: but there are some social implications here, Like I'm also 197 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: thinking about what you just said about our cheapest proteins, 198 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: and when we think about where our economy is right now, 199 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: when we think about people who may be struggling financially, 200 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: how do they afford to eat if we take chicken, eggs, turkey, 201 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: and maybe dairy, when we take those things off the table, 202 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: if there's an infection, what does that mean for us? 203 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 5: I mean, I'm not a historian, but but we've never 204 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 5: had something this ubiquitous in this many different species. If 205 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 5: you look at African swine fever, which is a virus 206 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 5: that hasn't come into North America yet, that has moved very. 207 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 4: Close to our borders. 208 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 5: Up until maybe a decade ago, swine was the most 209 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 5: consumed animal protein on the planet. And then China and 210 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 5: other parts of the world had an epic African swine 211 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 5: fever outbreak that I believe resulted in the depopulation or 212 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 5: ethanasia of about a third of the Chinese pig supply. 213 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 5: And then from that, you know, poultry became the most 214 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 5: consumed animal protein for two reasons. First of all, it's 215 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 5: a little less expensive to produce it, and second of all, 216 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 5: it didn't have the same risk because of African swine fever. 217 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 5: We're kind of at that point where it's like, Okay, 218 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 5: we're at about you know, eight billion plus people on 219 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 5: the planet. We need to figure out how to do that. 220 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 5: Poultry has a lower environmental impact from what we call 221 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 5: feed conversion ratio the amount of grain that we need 222 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 5: to feed a chicken to get to get protein out 223 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 5: of it than other food animals, but there's still an 224 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 5: impact there. 225 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 4: So if we don't figure this out, we're. 226 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 5: Definitely going to have to move on to you know, 227 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 5: Plan B or Plan C when it comes to kind 228 00:11:54,640 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 5: of global food security. 229 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: What are some of the other plants. If we can't 230 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: get bird flu under control, what else is on the table? 231 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 5: So avian influenza the main reservoir, the main source of 232 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 5: the virus are wild waterfowl like ducks and geese, which 233 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 5: are are migratory, So swine flu also came from wildbirds 234 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 5: wild waterfowl. I'm from the Central Valley of California. That's 235 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 5: where we have a thousand dairies, That's where we have 236 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 5: six hundred poultry facilities and in the fall and winter. 237 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 5: That's also where six to eight million wild waterfowl migrate 238 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 5: down into that central valley, and those farms obviously don't 239 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 5: change locations, but because waterfowl our migratory, the risk around 240 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 5: those farms changes literally from day to day, week to week, 241 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 5: month to month, and. 242 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 4: Year to year. 243 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 3: Wow. 244 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 5: So one of the real challenges is trying to understand 245 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 5: where the risk is, and that's kind of a moving target. 246 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 5: We have in the United States about forty four thousand 247 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 5: commercial poultry facilities, about sixty thousand commercial swine facilities, over 248 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 5: twenty thousand dairies. Historically, we've never really thought about where 249 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 5: we put our farms other than we want our farms 250 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 5: to be in areas where the land's inexpensive. We want 251 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 5: our farms to be in areas that are flat because 252 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 5: it's just easier logistically, and we want our farms close 253 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 5: to train tracks so we can ship product and soybeans 254 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 5: and corn and eggs and meat back and forth. We 255 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 5: never really thought about putting our farms in geographies that 256 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 5: are somewhat isolated from waterfowl, and that's been one of 257 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 5: the real challenges to kind of address this. 258 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 2: Wow, this is feeling like a lot, you know, and 259 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: like from your vantage point, I don't know if it 260 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: feels like something we can get our arms around. 261 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 3: Like, how is all of this being tracked? 262 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: Is it tracked at the state level, is it tracked 263 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 2: at the federal level? Is wildlife included? Or is it 264 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 2: just the commercial cultry that you're talking about? Are you 265 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: do you feel confident about how things are being surveyed 266 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: or in tract? 267 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 5: I think so, you know, you're getting to a question 268 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 5: that I'm really passionate about, but for most people is 269 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 5: really boring. Is kind of information networks, relational databases, how 270 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 5: we can connect the dots to your point, And that's 271 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 5: a real challenge. 272 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 4: So this is a global disease. 273 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 5: But if I go onto USDA's website for the Animal 274 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 5: Plant Health Inspection Service and hypath Ai, they don't tell 275 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 5: me anything about what's going on in Canada. So if 276 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 5: I'm a farmer in Minnesota, it behooves me to understand 277 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 5: what's going on in Canada, and vice versa. If I 278 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 5: go on to the Canadian Food Inspection Agencies website, they 279 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 5: don't have anything about what's going on in the US. 280 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 4: So this is a perfect example of why. 281 00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 5: We need these information networks between farmers and governments and 282 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 5: different countries need to be connected to each other, and 283 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 5: they're not right. 284 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 4: We're not talking to each other. 285 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 5: So absolutely we have a real problem when it comes 286 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 5: to kind of sharing information and collaboration and trust and 287 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 5: all those things. And you know, I'm an epidemiologist and 288 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 5: a veterinarian, but I really want to drag more social 289 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 5: scientists and so what I do because ultimately it's like. 290 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 4: Why why is there this this friction? 291 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 5: So we do have this kind of lack of information sharing, 292 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 5: and that is that is not an easy thing to 293 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 5: solve because that at some level is it goes to 294 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 5: you know, trust and relationship building and collaboration, and that, 295 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 5: to me is maybe the biggest frustration of all of 296 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 5: this is that we have this siloing of data. So 297 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 5: we're taking a good idea trying to protect farmers to 298 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 5: an illogical conclusion where that data is not being shared, integrated, 299 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 5: and leveraged in any kind of bust away. 300 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: At this point, it's so interesting because like when I 301 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: think about something like this, I say, when I'm going 302 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 2: out of town, I tell my neighbor I'm not going 303 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: to be home, so that they could be on the lookout. 304 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: If I get a package, take it off the doorstep. 305 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: If my house catches on fire, call nine one one 306 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 2: and call me, like, be on the lookout. That's how 307 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 2: we should be seeing ourselves as you know, citizens of 308 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: this globe, like, as neighbors, like we should be sharing 309 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: this information because it is to the benefit of everyone, 310 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: and it's just so it's so unfortunate that we're not there. 311 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: This is a thing TT and I talk about a 312 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: lot around behavioral psychology. Even when we think about communication, 313 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: how we talk about these things affects how people think 314 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: about them, how they link them to themselves or if 315 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: they say that's for other people. We know these things, 316 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: We know our most vulnerable populations. When we protect them, 317 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: we protect all of us. What's the deal, doctor. 318 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 5: Petski, The USDA and the farmers are they need help? 319 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 5: And dairy workers right now, highest occupational risk dairy workers, 320 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 5: most of them are undocumented, They live in mixed generational homes, 321 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 5: mixed familial homes. So the reality is we're doing the 322 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 5: least amount of surveillance on the folks that are kind 323 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 5: of the tip of the you know, potential pandemic spear. 324 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 5: So God forbid, one of those guys or people comes home, 325 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 5: they're infected, and the virus continues to move around in 326 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 5: that in that physical home and mutates, and now it 327 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 5: goes you know, through an aerosol route human to human, 328 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 5: and we just don't have a surveillance system set up 329 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 5: to to kind of capture that before it gets out 330 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 5: of hand. At this point, I think, ultimately, if we're 331 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 5: not gonna be collaborative on how these problems are dealt with, 332 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 5: we're going to kind of go in circles. As far 333 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 5: as the solutions. We're not bringing in new concepts, new ideas. 334 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 5: We don't have people that are experts in social science, 335 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 5: we don't have people that are experts in wildlife biology, 336 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 5: remote sensing. I mean, there's just a lot of leverage 337 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 5: points that we could be integrating into the solutions, and 338 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 5: that's been a real challenge. 339 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 2: I love this point because I think that when folks 340 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 2: think about science, that they think of it in those 341 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: siloed ways where okay, this doesn't touch that, but it 342 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: all touches each other, because that means going to show 343 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 2: up in your grocery store. And even when we think 344 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 2: about the policy side of all of this, like all 345 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 2: of these things, you need people who understand who are 346 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: working in policy so that as the science is developing, 347 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 2: as you're learning more, as data is being shared, hopefully 348 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 2: you know there are people who can pull the right 349 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 2: levers to make sure that these regulations are passed so 350 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: that we have a healthier environment. I think these are 351 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: the things that worry folks. They worry about whether or 352 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: not they're going to be protected by our systems, our 353 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 2: supply chains, or if the bottom line is the one 354 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: that is going to be ruling the day. 355 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 3: Should folks be. 356 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 2: Worried about the chicken that they're buying from the grocery store. 357 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 2: Should they be worried about their eggs? Should they be 358 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 2: worried about their meat? Is this something that we should 359 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 2: be thinking about on a regular basis now? 360 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 4: Yeah, So. 361 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 5: When it comes to the food safety aspect of it, 362 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 5: so dairy products, unpasteuriz dairy products one hundred percent we 363 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 5: should be worried about. 364 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 4: So in my mind, that's reason, you know, a million 365 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 4: and seven. 366 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 5: Why we shouldn't be consuming raw dairy products. I know 367 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 5: some people say, well, it's my risk and I can 368 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 5: do what I want. To that point, if we're dealing 369 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 5: with an infectious disease. We live in a culture where 370 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 5: we're interacting with you know, sometimes thousands of people every 371 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 5: single day. I know some people have said, well, we're 372 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 5: not seeing in raw dairy milk any kind of person 373 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 5: to person spread and we haven't seen in any significant, 374 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 5: you know, disease or anything like that, to which my 375 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 5: own personal feeling is like, Okay, we have feral cats 376 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 5: around dairy facilities that are dying from drinking being exposed 377 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 5: to this raw milk. 378 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,239 Speaker 4: Cats are mammals, they're they're related to us. 379 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 5: When diseases start spreading, they are much more difficult to 380 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 5: deal with than if we prevent them in the first place. So, 381 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 5: from an epidemiological perspective, from a public health perspective, the 382 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 5: the risks of consumption of raw milk, especially in a 383 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 5: state like California where we have hundreds of dairies that 384 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 5: are infected. At this point, we know the virus is 385 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 5: in the highest load in dairy milk, so I think 386 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 5: there's a risk there. 387 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 4: Now when you look at eggs. 388 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 5: Fortunately, when chickens get hypathai, they typically die. And I 389 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 5: say that fortunately from a food safety perspective, not from 390 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 5: a veterinary perspective, understand. Yeah, but they but they'll they'll 391 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 5: die and they'll stop producing eggs. And even if they 392 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 5: are producing you know, an egg or two before they 393 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 5: ultimately die, the reality is the egg is not really 394 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 5: the tissue compartment that the virus kind of localizes in. 395 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 5: So you know, I've had people say, well, can the 396 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 5: virus you know, be present on the feces that's outside 397 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 5: of the egg and then go through the pores into 398 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 5: the egg and all those things are certainly possible, but 399 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 5: it's just such a low risk that I don't really 400 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 5: see eggs. To me, the bigger risk with eggs is 401 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 5: still salmonilla. Same thing with like meat and stuff like that. Now, 402 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 5: for reasons of E. Coli and salmonella and Camplobacter lasteria whatever, 403 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 5: no one should be taking raw meat and rubbing it. 404 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 4: On whatever on their eyes or mouth or whatever. 405 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 5: But to me, you know, the major food safety risk 406 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 5: is still on the raw milk side. And then fortunately 407 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 5: we haven't had any situations happen or we don't think 408 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 5: there's a significant risk on any other animal food products. 409 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 2: Remember, like we would see it on like TV and 410 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 2: stuff like that, how they would put our raw steak 411 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 2: on someone's eye if they got a black eye. 412 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: Yes, that's out of the question. 413 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: We're not doing that. No more, no more, round me 414 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: on your face. That's done so so okay. 415 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: I don't know who could afford to put steak on 416 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: their face in this economy anyway. But is there anything 417 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: else we should avoid or be thinking about? 418 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 4: You know, the only two things I kind of add 419 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 4: on people that are backyard chickens. They need to be careful. 420 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 5: People should wear shoes and coveralls that are dedicated to 421 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 5: their coup. But now I think people should wear surgical 422 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 5: masks and some kind of a shield for their eyes. 423 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 5: And I also think it's really important to not have 424 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 5: bird feeders in homes that have backyard chickens, because you're 425 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 5: just tempting fate. You're bringing more and more wildlife to 426 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 5: your backyard, and that's how diseases, even influenza and others 427 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 5: can can can move from wild animals into backyard chickens. 428 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: For example, before I started preparing for this lab, I 429 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: said to myself, maybe people are sharing more information and 430 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: I'm just not seeing it. But doctor Petski, it already 431 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: feels like no one said anything at all. Just based 432 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: on what you've said so far. 433 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, unfortunately. 434 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 5: I mean, and if you're the poultry industry or the 435 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 5: dairy industry, I don't blame you, right, your job is 436 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 5: to make money and provide a safe product. If you're 437 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 5: the government, it's hard to stick your neck out, especially 438 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 5: right now for obvious reasons. So who's gonna say, like, hey, 439 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 5: we have to be careful, right, and these are the 440 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 5: things we need to start adding on to what we're doing. 441 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 5: It's kind of academics mission. And I mean that in 442 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 5: my opinion, Hopefully, like I said, six months or nine months, 443 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 5: everyone's like, eh, doctor Petski didn't know what he's talking about. 444 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 5: But we at least need to have some contingency plans 445 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 5: and thoughts about how we're we need to address this 446 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 5: because I don't think this is going to go away. 447 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 4: I think we're dealing with an endemic virus at this point. 448 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 4: It's everywhere. 449 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 5: Wow, So I think we need to kind of have 450 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 5: a different mindset when we as we move forward. 451 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: Okay, you brought up a really great point about folks 452 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: you know who work for the government who don't want 453 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 2: to stick their next out because of obvious reasons. When 454 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 2: COVID was first brought to our mind, Donald Trump was 455 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 2: the president, and there have been lots of information that 456 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 2: shows like how it kind of messed up our response 457 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 2: and possibly people died as a result of that. Do 458 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 2: you have concerns because of the current administration, like policies 459 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: about how we're going to respond to the bird flu 460 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 2: and what should we be telling our congressmen and women 461 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 2: when we call and we say, hey, this is something 462 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 2: that's important and you need to talk about it and 463 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: do the right thing. 464 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 5: But I heard someone describe what happens when you start 465 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 5: reducing kind of the amount of resources that you have 466 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 5: to respond to a public health emergency, And it's like 467 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 5: taking the batteries out of your smoke alarm. 468 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 4: If I took the batteries. 469 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 5: Out of my smoke alarm at our house, probably nothing 470 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 5: happens for a day or two or seven or ten 471 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 5: or whatever, but at some point you need to have 472 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 5: your smoke alarm. We're kind of reducing the quality of 473 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 5: those batteries, and a lot of different smoke alarms across 474 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 5: our government that are focused on vaccine development, on response, 475 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 5: on knowledge of what's going on with avian influenza humans 476 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 5: and occupational risks, so all of those efforts have been 477 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 5: mitigated either financially or via you know, kind of this 478 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 5: general sense of despair by you know a lot of 479 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 5: really smart people that work in a lot of these agencies. 480 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 5: So you wonder, you know, as we kind of strip 481 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 5: all that away, that we're kind of we're increasing the 482 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 5: potential for something if it does happen, just kind of 483 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 5: spiral out of control. 484 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 4: In my opinion, you brought. 485 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: Up something that I'm really interested in. You mentioned vaccine 486 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: efforts for poultry and dairy. Are we on pace with 487 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: the vaccine efforts if something does happen or do you 488 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: think we're behind. 489 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 5: I'm definitely not expert in vaccines, but vaccines are interesting 490 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 5: and complicated. So, as we know from our COVID experience, 491 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 5: vaccines in general protect against disease, not against infection. 492 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 4: So from a. 493 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 5: Biological perspective, the worry is that you're going to have 494 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 5: flocks or herds that are vaccinated and infected, and then 495 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 5: how do you prevent further transmission from those flocks and herds. 496 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 4: That's a real challenge. That being said, there's countries. 497 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 5: China, Egypt, Vietnam that have had eveian influenza vaccines for 498 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 5: probably decades at this point, and that are you know, 499 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 5: kind of looking at us like, wait, what are you 500 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 5: waiting for? 501 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 2: Oh, so we're late to the party in the United States. 502 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 2: Ain't no party in the USA, No Miley embarrassing, What 503 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 2: are we waiting for now? 504 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 5: The politics of vaccination is complicated in the sense that 505 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 5: the broiler industry, which hasn't been hugely affected by this outbreak, 506 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 5: would prefer not to have a vaccine to be available 507 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 5: because once a country starts vaccinating, that potentially affects trade, 508 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 5: and the broiler industry is very international in their in 509 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 5: their trade. The Turkey and layer industry, which have been 510 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 5: much more affected by by the virus, don't have as 511 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 5: many international trading opportunities or or they just don't trade 512 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 5: as much. They're much more keen to vaccinate. Think that 513 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 5: the livestock industry, especially the dairy industry, is keen to 514 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 5: vaccinate because they're having significant effects on milk production and 515 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 5: the economics of dairy there's very thin margins already, so 516 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 5: I get the sense that there's this hope that vaccination 517 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 5: can can kind of reduce the economic impact and the 518 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 5: potential for spread, but vaccines are interesting. My worry on 519 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 5: the vaccine side is that we don't have robust enough 520 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 5: surveillance in wild birds. But if we have a vaccine, 521 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 5: we want to make sure that we're vaccinating against the 522 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 5: dominant strain and the wild. 523 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 4: Birds, and that can be very regional, that might be hyper. 524 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 5: Local, that might be continental. We do surveillance, but our 525 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 5: surveillance isn't really set up to align where the poultry 526 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 5: industry has their interests and farms and where the wild 527 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 5: birds are. We have a system, but it's not probably 528 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 5: aligned well enough to really kind of link those two 529 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 5: together and make sure that we're ultimately vaccinating against the 530 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 5: dominant strains are in that region or environment or flyway. 531 00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: I think we need to have one big beer and 532 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: we need a lot of groups at the table. 533 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 6: Yeah. 534 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 4: I think the thing that that I want to stress 535 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 4: is we're in uncharted territory. 536 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 5: We don't know what's going to happen, and I don't 537 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 5: fully think that we're utilizing all the technology that we 538 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 5: should be using. And I think we need to start 539 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 5: investing now also in this kind of relationship building. And 540 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 5: that's a really hard thing to do during you know, 541 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 5: the equivalent of a whoultry pandemic already. Unfortunately, I think 542 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 5: if this goes away, it'll be in spite of us, 543 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 5: not because of us. 544 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 4: At this point. 545 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: Wow, So basically, everybody cross your fingers. 546 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, that said, that's the best we can do. 547 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 4: You know. 548 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: This was a lot to wrap my brain around. Yes, 549 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: and there were so many different points. But if there's 550 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: a single takeaway from this episode, I think is that 551 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: we need surveillance because all this stuff is connected cats, 552 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: raw meat, diets, your quail legs potentially. I mean, I 553 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: feel like I have a better understanding of the threats 554 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: of bird flu and the things that aren't threat so 555 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: eating eggs that's okay. 556 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean if this has been hard for 557 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 2: you to wrap your mind around, and this is like 558 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 2: your bread and butter, it was, Yeah, it just you know, 559 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 2: was completely out of my wheelhouse, and so I learned 560 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 2: out back. It pulled everything back, no edges, nothing's left. Okay, 561 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 2: I'm just walking out here, ball ahead. But I think 562 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 2: it just brings us back to the importance of basic research, 563 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 2: community based research, and so much more so. Some of 564 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 2: this work is hyper local. So you may say, oh, 565 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: they're wasting time tagging ducks. They're just enthusiasts. 566 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 3: Listen. 567 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 2: Those bird watchers may be into the beautiful plumes, but 568 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: they also may be the smoke alarm that says, hey, 569 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 2: there's twenty dead birds in the local pond, and that 570 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 2: lets you know bird flu is in your area. 571 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: This is so important, And I don't even know where 572 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: to start. Like I'm looking at all of this. I 573 00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: just know I feel like I'm about to take my 574 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: out because there's a lake near my house and I'm 575 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: about to start tracking the birds, the ducks, the hair 576 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: and is all of it, because I need to know 577 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: what's going on. 578 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 2: I'm looking at all these birds. Funny now, I'm like, hey, 579 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: don't come too close. 580 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 3: Woody. I had a woodpecker that was coming to my 581 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 3: house literally every spring. 582 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 2: I hope he doesn't come back. He drives us nuts, 583 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: he pecks on our what's the thing called a storm drain? 584 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 6: Oh? 585 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: Is it middle? 586 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 3: Yes, they said they signing to his mates. Hey, I'm 587 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 3: not wishing bird flew on. No birds, No, but but 588 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 3: this little little pecker he needs to find something else 589 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 3: to do. 590 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: Oh you don't want him to play the high hat? No, 591 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: he's playing the drums at your house. 592 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 3: I know, right. 593 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: Did you see that lady that had the mad put 594 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: a paper plate on the bottom of some sunglasses. 595 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: Yes, you're putting birds on the front because she wanted 596 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: to see the birds eating up close. You can't do 597 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 2: that anymore. 598 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 3: You can't do that. 599 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 2: That was already high risk. Okay, yes, yes, but now 600 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 2: you got to keep those birds far, far, far away. 601 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: Yes. H well, a lot learned and a lot to consider. 602 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 6: Yes, you can find us on X and Instagram at 603 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 6: Dope Labs. 604 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: Podcast CT is on X and Instagram, at d R 605 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: Underscore t s h O, and you can find Zakiya 606 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 2: at Z said So. 607 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media. 608 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate 609 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: producer is Usara Savez. 610 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: Dope Labs is sound designs edited and mixed by James Barber. 611 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: Lamanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger. 612 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: Executive producer from iHeart podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead 613 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: is Alison Canter. 614 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 2: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzala and Alex 615 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 2: sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs 616 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: is executive produced by US T T Show Dia and 617 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 2: Pakia Wattley.