1
00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You. From how Supports

2
00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,600
Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline

3
00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:16,840
Speaker 1: and I'm Kristen, and we want to welcome you to

4
00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:22,639
Speaker 1: our part one of Women in Astronomy, our Lady Stargazers episode.

5
00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,479
Speaker 1: We got the original idea for this episode because we

6
00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,240
Speaker 1: wanted to pair astronomy with astrology. We wanted to talk

7
00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,960
Speaker 1: about the origins of humans and of course women in particular,

8
00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,360
Speaker 1: looking at the sky and studying what it all meant.

9
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,800
Speaker 1: But by the time we got into our women and

10
00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,280
Speaker 1: astronomy sources, we realized, WHOA, this is way too interesting.

11
00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,640
Speaker 1: There are way too many incredible women. That sounds wrong,

12
00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:53,720
Speaker 1: That sounds like I'm saying that there are too many women,

13
00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,480
Speaker 1: But there are so many incredible women and incredible discoveries

14
00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,440
Speaker 1: that we have to talk about that we decided to

15
00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,800
Speaker 1: dedicate two parter too, the Ladies of Astronomy from ancient

16
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,320
Speaker 1: times all the way up to today. Well, this is

17
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,320
Speaker 1: also sort of an in depth follow up on the

18
00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,960
Speaker 1: series that we did last year on Women in STEM,

19
00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:18,280
Speaker 1: dedicating four episodes individually to science, technology, engineering, and math,

20
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:25,840
Speaker 1: and astronomy is totally worthy of two episodes. Because it's

21
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,319
Speaker 1: the oldest of the natural sciences. So much of what

22
00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,959
Speaker 1: we know about the world and also technology that we

23
00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,840
Speaker 1: use even in everyday life comes from astronomy and cosmology.

24
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,199
Speaker 1: When we think about the big questions of why we're here,

25
00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,680
Speaker 1: where we came from, how did all this life begin?

26
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,640
Speaker 1: We don't look down. We look up. That's the right.

27
00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,040
Speaker 1: We look up to the stars. And that's why astronomy

28
00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 1: has essentially is essentially considered the oldest science because as

29
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,400
Speaker 1: long as people have been looking up at the stars,

30
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,960
Speaker 1: there's been a version of astronomy basically. Well, and think

31
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,240
Speaker 1: too about in the days before electricity, how much brighter

32
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,360
Speaker 1: the night sky was, to how much you could see

33
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,960
Speaker 1: with the naked eye that we can't today. So it's

34
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,760
Speaker 1: understandable that people in ancient times and even in more

35
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:21,000
Speaker 1: recent times have been endlessly fascinated by the stars. And

36
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,600
Speaker 1: if we go back though to the ancient times, astronomy

37
00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:29,720
Speaker 1: was not surprisingly a mix of science and mysticism. There

38
00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,680
Speaker 1: was a lot of religion and superstition infused in our

39
00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,720
Speaker 1: curiosity with the stars. Yeah, and at the time, I mean,

40
00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,400
Speaker 1: there really was no difference between science and mysticism, and

41
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,680
Speaker 1: so it all tied in very closely together, for instance,

42
00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,280
Speaker 1: the Mayans, the ancient Chinese, and the Harapping culture, which

43
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,480
Speaker 1: is also also known as the Bronze Age, Indus Valley

44
00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 1: civilization in Afghanistan, India, and Pakistan. They used the study

45
00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,320
Speaker 1: of the stars to keep track of time and to

46
00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,040
Speaker 1: orient their city, so that's very scientific, very advanced. They

47
00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,720
Speaker 1: also used astronomy and the study of the stars to

48
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,919
Speaker 1: try to predict the future, and that sounds like astrology,

49
00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,520
Speaker 1: but really the two didn't split for the longest time.

50
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,560
Speaker 1: And we should point out that while astronomy is the

51
00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:20,440
Speaker 1: study of the positions, motions, and properties of celestial objects,

52
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,440
Speaker 1: astrology is the study of how those positions and movements

53
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,760
Speaker 1: affect people and events here on Earth. And so for

54
00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,400
Speaker 1: the longest time they were just the same thing. And

55
00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,239
Speaker 1: this is coming from a Sky and Telescope article that

56
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,040
Speaker 1: talked about how quote, for several millennia, the desire to

57
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,480
Speaker 1: improve astrological predictions as one of the main motivations for

58
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,640
Speaker 1: astronomical observations and theories. But then finally in the late

59
00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:51,080
Speaker 1: seventeenth century, astronomy and astrology split into the mainstream science

60
00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:56,480
Speaker 1: of astronomy and the pseudo science of astrology, and Isaac Newton,

61
00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,480
Speaker 1: for instance, demonstrated some of the physical way celestial bodies

62
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:04,080
Speaker 1: affect another and even today it's still a developing field

63
00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,520
Speaker 1: with a lot to discover. It. I'm talking about astronomy,

64
00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,360
Speaker 1: not astrology, although for some you know, if you read

65
00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,080
Speaker 1: your horoscope every week, you probably think there's there's also

66
00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,680
Speaker 1: still a lot to discover, which is the future. I

67
00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,080
Speaker 1: actually did read my horoscope every week, because how else

68
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:20,960
Speaker 1: am I supposed to know how to handle anything that

69
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,159
Speaker 1: life may throw my way. It's true, Caroline, it's very true.

70
00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:30,080
Speaker 1: Look to the stars indeed, um, But in terms of astronomy,

71
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:35,599
Speaker 1: the actual science, it's still a developing field. The first

72
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,040
Speaker 1: planets outside our solar system, for instance, weren't even discovered

73
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,920
Speaker 1: until the nineteen nineties. Yeah, it's not like I mean,

74
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,760
Speaker 1: space isn't exactly like a tiny contained area where you can,

75
00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,039
Speaker 1: you know, just dig a few holes or look, there

76
00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,280
Speaker 1: are a few telescopes and figure things out. I mean,

77
00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,000
Speaker 1: there's so much left to discover, and that's why it's

78
00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,840
Speaker 1: such an exciting field, and so people have been making

79
00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:03,560
Speaker 1: these incredible discoveries forever. Yeah, and you're hearing it here

80
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:05,480
Speaker 1: and only here. For the first time on stuff. I

81
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 1: never told you space is big space. Yeah, you're right,

82
00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 1: this big we've been looking up um. But when it

83
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,560
Speaker 1: comes to the history of women's participation in the field,

84
00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,600
Speaker 1: not surprisingly again it was slow going at first, and

85
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:26,720
Speaker 1: typically involved women getting into science, whether that's astronomy or

86
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,800
Speaker 1: another kind of science, thanks to the men in their

87
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 1: life or the God in their life. Right, absolutely. And

88
00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,080
Speaker 1: so first let's give some context about women in science

89
00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,000
Speaker 1: in general from ancient times through the nineteenth century. And

90
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,919
Speaker 1: you might think, no, no, no, I came here to

91
00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,239
Speaker 1: learn about astronomy. Don't tell me all about general science,

92
00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,200
Speaker 1: although I don't know who would say that, But we

93
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,560
Speaker 1: have to give you context because when you look at

94
00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,320
Speaker 1: things that were happening and have been happening in society

95
00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,840
Speaker 1: from ancient times all the way up to now, the

96
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,359
Speaker 1: whole idea and and the whole landscape of women in

97
00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,480
Speaker 1: science and then women in astronomy, they're all parallels. So

98
00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,039
Speaker 1: let's go back to ancient times because evidence exists of

99
00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,280
Speaker 1: women being involved in science way back when archaeologists, for instance,

100
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,080
Speaker 1: found a carving from four thousand BC of a Sumerian

101
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,839
Speaker 1: priestess physician. So it was not unusual for a woman

102
00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:21,800
Speaker 1: to serve in a medical capacity, and that included Egyptian women,

103
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,480
Speaker 1: although probably just the wealthy ones, I would think, who

104
00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,240
Speaker 1: had the choice to attend either a co ed or

105
00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 1: all female medical school. And then if we moved to

106
00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,640
Speaker 1: five six hundred BC, women were treated as equals in

107
00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:40,279
Speaker 1: many Greek academic and philosophical communities. And if we jump

108
00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:45,520
Speaker 1: away ahead though into one thousand to fourteen hundred, which

109
00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,320
Speaker 1: you would think, what a horrible time, probably just to

110
00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,080
Speaker 1: be a human in general, so much lack of plumbing,

111
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,920
Speaker 1: so much mud, A smelly time. It was a smelly time,

112
00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,280
Speaker 1: and probably not an amazing time for women either. But surprisingly,

113
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,800
Speaker 1: I keep saying surprisingly I had there were a lot

114
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:08,119
Speaker 1: of surprises for me. And it's recently, but during this time,

115
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:15,560
Speaker 1: opportunities for European women hit a high thanks to monastic life. Yeah,

116
00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,120
Speaker 1: you wouldn't. You wouldn't think so, considering, you know, the

117
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:24,240
Speaker 1: whole execution of Galileo and whatnot. But it makes sense

118
00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,520
Speaker 1: when you think about it because at this time the

119
00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,160
Speaker 1: majority of both male and female scientists were members of

120
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:34,440
Speaker 1: religious orders, and studying the stars, studying celestial objects in

121
00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,080
Speaker 1: their movement was essentially a way to get closer to God,

122
00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,920
Speaker 1: to get closer to the creator who put all of

123
00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,280
Speaker 1: that stuff in motion in their minds. And it also

124
00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:45,800
Speaker 1: had a lot to do with the fact that the

125
00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,080
Speaker 1: Church made an effort to correct the Julian calendar and

126
00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,400
Speaker 1: work some things out, because they essentially had an astronomical

127
00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,720
Speaker 1: basis for determining when Easter and other holy days fell.

128
00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,600
Speaker 1: And so it makes sense that if you're hanging out

129
00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,720
Speaker 1: in the heavy slash being a nun or some type

130
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,880
Speaker 1: of clergyman like Copernicus, for instance, was a Catholic clergyman,

131
00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,960
Speaker 1: you would participate in the study of the stars. And

132
00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,480
Speaker 1: we should point out before we move on that all

133
00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,920
Speaker 1: of this fascinating information that we're talking about right now

134
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,320
Speaker 1: is coming from Patsy and guys from Slippery Rock University

135
00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,960
Speaker 1: and her paper called Women in Science five thousand Years

136
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,320
Speaker 1: of Obstacles and Achievements. I mean, it's a fascinating read.

137
00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,440
Speaker 1: And that was sort of the tipping point when I

138
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,880
Speaker 1: realized we're not going to be able to do this

139
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,720
Speaker 1: in just one episode, This one podcast episode cannot contain

140
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,600
Speaker 1: the whole galaxy. That's so right, It's it's just true.

141
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,319
Speaker 1: It's fact that's a scientific fact um. But you would

142
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,240
Speaker 1: think that once we get into the sixteenth century, into

143
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,960
Speaker 1: the Renaissance, that women in science would enjoy even more opportunities,

144
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,200
Speaker 1: But in fact, just the opposite happened. The number of

145
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:59,040
Speaker 1: women in science decreased because in part this was a

146
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,920
Speaker 1: time when many abbeys were closed and universities which were

147
00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,320
Speaker 1: often barred to women grew. And so basically during this time,

148
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 1: women who had been physicians or who held any scientific knowledge.

149
00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,160
Speaker 1: Think from our Women Explorer series Jeane Beret, who was

150
00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,800
Speaker 1: an herb woman who her knowledge became sort of suspect.

151
00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,960
Speaker 1: These women ended up getting called charlatan's at best and

152
00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:27,640
Speaker 1: at worst, which is who were then put to deaths science, medicine,

153
00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:34,000
Speaker 1: any of these discovery type fields. Uh, they weren't trusted

154
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,280
Speaker 1: anymore to do things. Yeah. History has long been suspect

155
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:43,280
Speaker 1: of smart women. Yeah, they they must be witches. But

156
00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:48,199
Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century, though, with the newly invented microscope,

157
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,880
Speaker 1: there is a rise in the number of women's scientists

158
00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,640
Speaker 1: because with the microscope, this also expands the kinds of

159
00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 1: sciences that people are exploring. So you have things like

160
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,360
Speaker 1: botany and entomology in particular, which are seen as women

161
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:10,199
Speaker 1: appropriate sciences. Yes, Now, a lot of women who might

162
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,760
Speaker 1: be interested, say in botany, weren't necessarily going to university

163
00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,880
Speaker 1: to study it. They would often be taught at home.

164
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,520
Speaker 1: And again, women who were receiving any education at all,

165
00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:26,839
Speaker 1: we're probably wealthier anyway. Um. And what was interesting though,

166
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,600
Speaker 1: is that manufacturers of microscopes and telescopes held lectures that

167
00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,000
Speaker 1: attracted women, so they were sometimes paying attention to women,

168
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,280
Speaker 1: maybe seeking this demographic, and women were also seeking this

169
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,600
Speaker 1: knowledge out as well. Women kind of had to do

170
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,400
Speaker 1: it for themselves in terms of feeding their own curiosity. Yeah,

171
00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,360
Speaker 1: and they did this by picking up the first periodical

172
00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 1: that was published for women interested in science, which is

173
00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,800
Speaker 1: published between six and six. And I didn't dig too

174
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 1: deeply into this because you know, I had to get

175
00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:59,520
Speaker 1: a move on with the whole star stuff and everything,

176
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,559
Speaker 1: but I would love to learn more about this magazine

177
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:09,880
Speaker 1: for for women. I think it's called Yield Lady Scientists perfect. Um. Well,

178
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,920
Speaker 1: then we move into the eighteenth century and the Enlightenment,

179
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,680
Speaker 1: and women in science got a boost with help from family.

180
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,920
Speaker 1: But this typically was just the wealthy and the privileged

181
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:26,440
Speaker 1: women who followed father's brothers husbands into scientific fields, and

182
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,880
Speaker 1: then continuing that trend in the nineteenth century, we see

183
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 1: the number of women's scientists who are working with their

184
00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,280
Speaker 1: husbands increase, and this trend continues as we move into

185
00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,720
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century when we see the number of women's

186
00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,400
Speaker 1: scientists who are working with their husbands increasing, and there

187
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,199
Speaker 1: was more of a push for educating women, not for

188
00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,320
Speaker 1: education's sake or to enrich the lives of women themselves,

189
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 1: but more to make them better companions for their husbands

190
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,640
Speaker 1: and eventually better mothers so that they would be you know,

191
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,520
Speaker 1: basically more interesting to talk to. Yeah, I mean you

192
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 1: did have. At this time, the first women's collegiest are

193
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,959
Speaker 1: going to pop up, particularly in New England, and then

194
00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,480
Speaker 1: with that you would see more funding for research projects

195
00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,640
Speaker 1: and more astronomical observatories being built that women would have

196
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,640
Speaker 1: access to. But as we'll get into more detail when

197
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:19,240
Speaker 1: we talk about some of the astronomical superstars of that time,

198
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,960
Speaker 1: there was constantly this concern between making sure there was

199
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:29,160
Speaker 1: an appropriate balance between education and femininity, essentially making sure

200
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,640
Speaker 1: that a woman didn't learn too much and wasn't so

201
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,160
Speaker 1: interested in her research and looking up at the stars,

202
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:39,440
Speaker 1: that she basically defeminized herself that she couldn't take care

203
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,640
Speaker 1: of domestic duties as well. Right, well, so all of

204
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,320
Speaker 1: that context leads us to the history of women's involvement

205
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:52,280
Speaker 1: in astronomy specifically. So let's move back into early astronomy,

206
00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,679
Speaker 1: into ancient Egypt, and here we get the last great

207
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,559
Speaker 1: scientists of antiquity, as Patty an Guys calls her a

208
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,400
Speaker 1: stranger and mathematician Hypatia, who was born in three seventy

209
00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,160
Speaker 1: a d. And you know, we have to point out

210
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,520
Speaker 1: the whole trend in terms of how women at this

211
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,880
Speaker 1: time got into science and math to begin with. And

212
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,720
Speaker 1: Hypatia is the first example that we really get of

213
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,160
Speaker 1: um a woman scientist or mathematician following in the footsteps

214
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,839
Speaker 1: of a man in order to either help him or

215
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,680
Speaker 1: get involved in science herself. And she ended up following

216
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,720
Speaker 1: her mathematician father's footsteps. She lectured on math and astronomy

217
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,240
Speaker 1: at the University of Alexandria where she was head of

218
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,880
Speaker 1: the Platinum School around four hundred a d. Head of

219
00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,600
Speaker 1: the school, head of the school, and uh, in addition

220
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,760
Speaker 1: to that, mathe in astronomy. Caroline, as you would in

221
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,079
Speaker 1: the time, she also studied astrology, because of course all

222
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,400
Speaker 1: of those things were mixed together. And the significant thing

223
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,880
Speaker 1: too about her following in her father's footsteps as a mathematician.

224
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:55,960
Speaker 1: Um and if his name is familiar is because we

225
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,480
Speaker 1: mentioned her in our women in Math episode as part

226
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:05,160
Speaker 1: of that Stems series. He's intentionally mentored her as well,

227
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 1: and mentorship will become a really important theme of women's

228
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,440
Speaker 1: participation in astronomy, as it is always with any of

229
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,599
Speaker 1: the stem fields, or typically in any more male dominated

230
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,560
Speaker 1: field period. Now, in terms of her research on astronomy

231
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,880
Speaker 1: in particular, Hypatia is known for charting celestial bodies and

232
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:29,080
Speaker 1: possibly inventing a device called the plain astro labe. Some

233
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,440
Speaker 1: sources credited to being invented about a century earlier, but regardless,

234
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,240
Speaker 1: she used the plane astrolabe often to measure the positions

235
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,920
Speaker 1: of stars and planets. Now, sadly, Hypatia's life does not

236
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,480
Speaker 1: have a happy ending because there was at the time

237
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:51,240
Speaker 1: a lot of conflict between science and religion, and in

238
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,320
Speaker 1: four fifteen she was murdered by a Christian mob that

239
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,000
Speaker 1: really hated Platinism. And as you mentioned, she was the

240
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,640
Speaker 1: head of the Platinum School, so off with her head. Actually,

241
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,200
Speaker 1: I think she was stone a death and her skin

242
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:09,080
Speaker 1: was ripped from her body. She is okay, uh yeah, tale, Yeah,

243
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,520
Speaker 1: we've never been without conflict between science and religion and

244
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 1: hypatious just one example. But if we move forward to

245
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 1: we get an example of how religion actually played a

246
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,760
Speaker 1: part in a woman becoming an amazing scientist. We have

247
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,400
Speaker 1: been Addictine Abbess hilde God of Binyon. She was the

248
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 1: most influential woman scientist of her era and the earliest

249
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,320
Speaker 1: woman whose major works are still intact and all. Hilde

250
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,000
Speaker 1: Guard studied cosmology, which is the study of the origins

251
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,200
Speaker 1: of the universe, in addition to many, many, many other disciplines. Yeah,

252
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,080
Speaker 1: and she advised all sorts of important men of the day.

253
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,640
Speaker 1: For instance, the Pope would sometimes come to her and

254
00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 1: be like, Hill to God, what's happened in your brain hole?

255
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 1: Like what, I've had some visions? She had lots of visions,

256
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,320
Speaker 1: you know what. I actually I think, if I'm not wrong,

257
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,200
Speaker 1: I actually read about her in a book about migraines

258
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,120
Speaker 1: and like or or oh maybe so she would she

259
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,400
Speaker 1: get migraine auras And I think I think she was

260
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:12,960
Speaker 1: one of the people like a lot of people back

261
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:14,840
Speaker 1: in the day, they think Joan of arc too probably

262
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:20,200
Speaker 1: got like aura, which translated into oh, she's getting a vision.

263
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,000
Speaker 1: She's either let's either kill her Berner at the stake

264
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:30,480
Speaker 1: or let's praise her scientific knowledge. Thankfully, Hildegarde made the cut.

265
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,760
Speaker 1: She did not make the cut. I don't know which

266
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:34,760
Speaker 1: one of those would work when it comes to beheading,

267
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:40,280
Speaker 1: but regardless, Hildegard was a standout female scientists at the time.

268
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,320
Speaker 1: And it would be almost seven hundred years before we

269
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 1: would get the first Western woman astronomer that we have

270
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 1: on record. And this is a woman named Elissa Betha

271
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 1: have Valius who following this pattern of women getting into

272
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,760
Speaker 1: science and studying science via uh the men in their life,

273
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,240
Speaker 1: she really came to astronomy through her husband. Yeah. She

274
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,600
Speaker 1: helped her husband run his observatory, and after he died,

275
00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,680
Speaker 1: she ended up putting together a catalog of more than

276
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 1: fifteen hundred stars. Yeah, and this is happening in the

277
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:21,560
Speaker 1: late seventeenth century. And uh Maria Papovo was writing about

278
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,440
Speaker 1: the relationship between Hevelius and her husband over at her

279
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,560
Speaker 1: website Brain Pickings, and she was talking about how UH

280
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,440
Speaker 1: and a lot of times marriage, especially if you say

281
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,800
Speaker 1: didn't come from a super wealthy background, that was another

282
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,160
Speaker 1: way that you could get into formal education and scholarly work,

283
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,040
Speaker 1: which would obviously still be happening on more of a

284
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 1: domestic front. And she referred to this as a conjugal apprenticeship,

285
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,440
Speaker 1: which I thought was a really fascinating phrase and something

286
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,959
Speaker 1: that will still see moving into more modern histories of

287
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,359
Speaker 1: women in astronomy, because a lot of ronomy teams that

288
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,640
Speaker 1: discovered a lot of these incredible structures in our sky

289
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 1: are married couples. Yeah, conjugal apprentice That sounds like something

290
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 1: completely different. Yeah, I mean I have a feeling with

291
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,760
Speaker 1: you know, when some astronomers and love go on dates,

292
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:22,080
Speaker 1: there's some conjugal apprenticeships happening. To Caroline, Well, that seems

293
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,520
Speaker 1: like a good place to take a break, Kristen, Yeah,

294
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,560
Speaker 1: I agree. I agree. And when we come back, we're

295
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 1: going to talk about some names that if you haven't

296
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,840
Speaker 1: heard of them, you need to know them, because these

297
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:39,879
Speaker 1: women are like the supernovas of the early history of

298
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,160
Speaker 1: women in astronomy. They are the dense exploded stars. Yes,

299
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,639
Speaker 1: and now back to the show. So when we left off,

300
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 1: we were talking about ELIZABETHA. Havlius in the late seventeenth

301
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,359
Speaker 1: century and how she picked up on the heels of

302
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:02,880
Speaker 1: her late husband's work catalogging thousands of stars. And now

303
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,600
Speaker 1: when we move into the late eighteenth and mid nineteenth century,

304
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,320
Speaker 1: we have another woman who gets into astronomy via a

305
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,400
Speaker 1: gentleman in her life. This time we're going to talk

306
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:19,000
Speaker 1: about Caroline Herschel, who studied astronomy while assisting her brother

307
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:24,359
Speaker 1: villehel Vide. Yeah. I love Caroline Herschel. I loved reading

308
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,040
Speaker 1: about her. She's such a fascinating character. But when you

309
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,000
Speaker 1: google her, you know the images that pop up, which

310
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,680
Speaker 1: obviously they're not pictures people, but the images that pop

311
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,720
Speaker 1: up are of an old woman, like this chrone looking woman.

312
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,280
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh gosh, why don't we have

313
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 1: any like why is she not depicted as a positive

314
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 1: young lady. Why isn't she sexier on her in Siram

315
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 1: feed Why? Why? Well? For I was just suspicious that,

316
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 1: like our people, were people depicting her as an old

317
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 1: crone because you know, social things of the era, they

318
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,440
Speaker 1: didn't you know, young women, It wasn't appropriate. And then

319
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 1: I came to realize as I actually read beyond just

320
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,679
Speaker 1: looking at good image results that she got into astronomy

321
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 1: and made her major discoveries much later in life. She

322
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 1: started out pursuing music. She was from a very musical family.

323
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,280
Speaker 1: She was the only girl in the family. Her father

324
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 1: was very musical, and Vin had it was also very musical.

325
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 1: And she actually kind of had to make a choice

326
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 1: eventually in her life about whether she was going to

327
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 1: continue pursuing music because her her career was pretty successful,

328
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,760
Speaker 1: or follow her brother into astronomy. Now before she had

329
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 1: to make that decision, though, can we talk for a

330
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 1: minute about her mother and how awful her mother was

331
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 1: Because Caroline Herschel was not a looker. I mean, as

332
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 1: you mentioned, you know, if you if you see her,

333
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,199
Speaker 1: she does I mean, she does look like a prototypical

334
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,679
Speaker 1: old maid spinster type. And her mom realized pretty early

335
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 1: on that Caroline probably wasn't going to snag a husband

336
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:56,960
Speaker 1: anytime soon. She was also very short. I think she

337
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,199
Speaker 1: was like for one um, and her mom's plan for

338
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 1: her was to stay at home and clean. It was

339
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 1: like she wanted her to be Cinderella essentially. Yeah, exactly. Um. Well,

340
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 1: so Caroline basically says screw that, and follows her brother

341
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,159
Speaker 1: from Germany to England, where they're both pursuing music. That

342
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 1: he's also studying astronomy. And when her brother went away,

343
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: when he left their house, she used his reflecting telescopes,

344
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 1: which she had helped him and their other brother build,

345
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,159
Speaker 1: by the way, in addition to studying astronomy and math,

346
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: and so in sev vin Helm, I'm sorry, I can't,

347
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 1: I have to say it that way. Vin Helm gets

348
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 1: famous because no big deal. He discovered uranus and then

349
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 1: ends up accepting a position as a royal astronomer. Yeah,

350
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: and he ended up bringing Caroline with him. And by

351
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: this point Caroline had soaked up so much astronomical knowledge

352
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,920
Speaker 1: from Wilhelm, and she'd spent a lot of time at

353
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 1: the house by the way, she was also his housekeeper

354
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 1: on the side, but in her spare time she would

355
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,719
Speaker 1: do what was called just sweeping the sky, of just

356
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: using a small telescope to scan the heavens to see

357
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 1: essentially what she could see. And through that, through that

358
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 1: kind of wrote uh sweeping, for lack of a better word,

359
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: So she was sweeping at the house. But indeed, but

360
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 1: through that she you know, you sort of developed this

361
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 1: uh internal map of the stars, which allows you to

362
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 1: then see new things that might pop out to you.

363
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 1: So when she goes with Wilhelm, she becomes appointed as

364
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 1: a qualified assistance and then starts earning a salary of

365
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 1: fifty pounds a year, which makes her the first woman

366
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 1: to earn a salary for scientific work. Yeah, and I

367
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 1: think what's so interesting about her is that not only

368
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 1: did she follow the trend of getting involved in science

369
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: because of a man in her life, but because she

370
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: was already sort of transgressing social norms by not marrying,

371
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: by not staying at home and doing the housework for

372
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 1: her mother and the rest of her family. It's sort of,

373
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it's sort of freed her up to live

374
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: this incredible life. And so in seventeen eighty three she

375
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: discovers fourteen nebulae, and between seventeen eighty six and seventeen

376
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 1: ninety seven she discovers eight comments. She eventually compiles two

377
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 1: entire catalogs of stars, and then receives a whole bunch

378
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: of awards in the nineteenth century. Yeah. In eighty eight,

379
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: the Royal Astronomical Society awarded her the Gold Medal, and

380
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: in eighteen thirty five named her an honorary member, which

381
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: was a big deal because, as you can imagine, there

382
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: were not many other women, if any, who are getting

383
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: these same kinds of accolades. Then in eighteen thirty eight,

384
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: the Royal Irish Academy of Sciences appointed her, then at

385
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 1: eighty eight years old, to its ranks, and in eighteen

386
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 1: forty six, at nineties six years old, she was awarded

387
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: the Gold Medal of the Prussian Academy of Sciences. And

388
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,959
Speaker 1: I wonder, Caroline, if any of this Caroline co host,

389
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 1: Caroline Herschel, but you as well, Herschel, if you're listening,

390
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 1: I wonder if any of this really would have been

391
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: possible if she had married, even if she had still

392
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 1: discovered all the nebula, all of the comments. I have

393
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 1: a feeling there would have been a lot of discomfort

394
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: among the scientific community of this woman who was also

395
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: trying to be a wife and a mother, because there

396
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 1: was there were two distinctly separate spheres. Well, I mean

397
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: god like up until the I mean even still today

398
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: if you want to be honest, but I mean up

399
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: until the seventies, nineteen seventies and eighties, there was still

400
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 1: an attitude of like, oh, well, we don't want to

401
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: hire a wife somebody's wife, because she'll she'll either leave

402
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 1: because she wants to have babies, or she'll she already

403
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: has babies and she'll need to leave at some point

404
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: to take care of them. I mean, like they're they're

405
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 1: little issues of separate spheres that we tackle today. But

406
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: the fact that she wasn't married, the fact that she

407
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: followed her brother into science, meant that she had all

408
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: of this time to dedicate to this wonderful field of

409
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 1: science that she absolutely loved and became passionate about. And

410
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,479
Speaker 1: it kind of echoes things that I've read modern women

411
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: in the stem field say that, like, God, I wish

412
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: I had a housewife, you know, like you can accomplish anything.

413
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: Anyone can accomplish anything if they do have a little

414
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: help at home. Sometimes. Well, an incredible too that not

415
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 1: only does her shall follow in her brother's footsteps, she

416
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: also ends up eclipsing him career wise, And yes, that

417
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: was a little bit of an astronomical fun. Well, one

418
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: of the big hitters, one of the giant celebrities, one

419
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: of the big stars, you might say, Kristen in early

420
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: astronomy is Mariah Mitchell. And if you've watched Cosmos, if

421
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: you've studied anything about astronomy at all, you probably know

422
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: Mitchell's name. She entered the field because a she received

423
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: a great education thanks to her Quaker family and upbringing.

424
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: Plus she had a father who inspired her interest in astronomy.

425
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 1: And not passively. It wasn't like he was studying the

426
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: stars and she was like, oh, mine, that looks very interesting.

427
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: He actively took a role in bringing her into the

428
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: study of the stars. Yeah. He taught her about serving

429
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: and navigation. She helped him calculate the position of their

430
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: house by observing a solar eclipse, and together they acquired

431
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: astronomical equipment and conducted observations. And this mentorship was so effective,

432
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: and obviously she had an innate gift for astronomy on

433
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: top of this that by the time she was fourteen,

434
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,479
Speaker 1: sailors were entrusting her to essentially plot out navigational routes

435
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: using the stars for long whaling trips. Can you imagine

436
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: like this fourteen year old being like, okay, and then

437
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 1: you're going to take a left here at this star

438
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 1: left when she's these cerberus and that's that's the right

439
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: straight until morning. I don't know anything else exactly. Oh

440
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: by the way, though, for listeners who are cringing thinking

441
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: her name is Maria Mitchell, not Maria Mitchell. Yes, it

442
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: is spelled to look like Maria m A R I A,

443
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: but it is pronounced Maria. That's right, that's right. And

444
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: Maria is our first professional female astronomer here in America.

445
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: And so let's take off a few of her accomplishments.

446
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 1: So in eighteen forty seven, Maria discovers a comment, and

447
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: three years later, in eighteen fifty, she becomes the first

448
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: woman elected to the American Association for the Advancement of Science,

449
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: and by this time, though, she was the only female

450
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: astronomer in the United States. And in eighteen sixty five

451
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: she becomes an astronomy professor at Vassar College, where she

452
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: stayed until she retired in eighty eight, and her salary.

453
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: Though even though she discovered a comment, she received a

454
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 1: medal from the King of Denmark, among other awards, for

455
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: this discovery and other discoveries that she made. Even still,

456
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: when she goes to Vassar, which is a woman's college,

457
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 1: but at the time, women's colleges did not necessarily mean

458
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: that they were staffed by women. There were very few

459
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: female faculty members. Her salary was a third of that

460
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: of her male colleagues, and she battled the administration on

461
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: the topic, but eventually withdrew from the fight. And there

462
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: was a letter that she wrote it maybe a diary

463
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: entry that she wrote, I want to say in the

464
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: eighteen seventies, where it's clear that she has resigned herself

465
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,479
Speaker 1: to the fact that this wage gap exists, but she

466
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: was so invested in educating women in particular that she

467
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: didn't care. She was like, this is this is my calling,

468
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: this is women need this education, and I will do

469
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: it regardless of the compensation. Yeah, and sort of the

470
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: attitude of like, Okay, I fought this fight, but I

471
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: need to get back to what my purpose is. And

472
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: I also love Caroline the photographs of Mitchell with her

473
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: students at vass Or doing their astronomy research, you know,

474
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: out with telescopes, but all dressed in nineteenth century garb

475
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: and their hair all pinned up, but still doing this science. Yeah.

476
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: This is definitely before the era when people were told

477
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: to smile, and photographs Mariah under students. Definitely it's like, oh,

478
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: did we catch you at like a really bad astronomy moment,

479
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: Like you guys look really upset. She was a very

480
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: serious looking woman, and she was very serious though, on

481
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: just the importance of women understanding and embracing their own

482
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: intellectual prowess, which might seem so basic now, but considering

483
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: that nineteenth century context, was quite revolutionary, because it's in

484
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: the late nineteenth to mid twentieth century that we have

485
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: in the background of astronomy these issues of confronting women

486
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: in the workplace, divisions of labor, and the professionalization of

487
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: astronomy as well. That's right, and it's around this time

488
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: that we start to see increasing numbers of women in astronomy,

489
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: and that's great, right. But the thing was, from eighteen

490
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: fifty nine to nineteen forty, while a third of the

491
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: people working in the astronomical community were women, most of

492
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: them were sort of shoved off into more clerical type jobs,

493
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,719
Speaker 1: and they didn't always stick around for that long. Fifty

494
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: of these women had careers that lasted less than five years,

495
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: lasted just a year or two, and only twelve percent

496
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: had careers longer than twenty five years. And of course

497
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: this means that naturally women even the ones who were

498
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: working outside those clerical boundaries that were established accrued even

499
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: fewer awards and honors than they otherwise would have. And

500
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: obviously to that this low retention rate was partially due

501
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: to being shoved out, but also the fact that most

502
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: women's aspiration was wife and motherhood. Well yeah in society,

503
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: and employers were telling them too that they sort of

504
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: had no choice. It's like, oh, you've gotten married, Okay,

505
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: see you later. Yeah. There was this great phrase called

506
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: buttons and breakfasts that came up in this paper we

507
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: were reading on the history of Women in Astronomy, and

508
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: essentially buttons and breakfast obviously um encapsulating domestic duties and

509
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: the concern of many male faculty members at the time

510
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: that women like Maria Mitchell were perhaps good at stargazing,

511
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: but could they also attend to buttons and breakfast. And

512
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: there was this one letter from I think he was

513
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: a faculty member at Vassar who was talking about how

514
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: pleased he was that when he went to Maria Mitchell's house,

515
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: her housekeeper actually had the day off or wasn't there

516
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: for whatever reason. And you know what happened, Caroline, She's

517
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: still she cooked a dinner all by herself and it

518
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: was lovely. Yeah. This was a letter that the an

519
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: emissary for the Vassar College founder wrote, assuring him that

520
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: Mitchell was just a fabulous cook and all around great ladies.

521
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: She's still a woman, don't worry. She still has lady

522
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: bits that enable her to cook dinner unlike you were, I,

523
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: fellow gentlemen. But that whole buttons and breakfast thing comes

524
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: from this conversation between Wellesley Physics and astronomy professor Sarah

525
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: Francis Whiting, who fielded a question from a famous European

526
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: researcher whom she did not name, and apparently he said

527
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: to her he was visiting her because she was pretty

528
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: awesome and they were having a great conversation after dinner

529
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,479
Speaker 1: about the stars and whatnot. But he couldn't stop himself

530
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: from asking, if all the ladies should know so much

531
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: about spectroscopes and cathode rays, who will attend to the

532
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: buttons and breakfasts? Who? Indeed? And so I love that

533
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: like that you can have an amazing and accomplished professor

534
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: who still And is that any different from any like

535
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: interview you get in a fashion magazine today talking to

536
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: an accomplished woman like she still has to feel questions

537
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: about having it all, doing it all. What happens if

538
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: you get to accomplish and you can't perform your womanly duties? Well, Caroline,

539
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: little known fact. That is why both the zipper and

540
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: the toaster were invented. So that's not a fact. It actually, yeah,

541
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: I don't remember, uh, who will attend to the zippers

542
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: and toasts? Now? When we move though into the work

543
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: at hand, in the observatories, there was still a highly

544
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: gendered pattern of work, often reflecting to the whole buttons

545
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: in breakfast, these assumptions about what women were good at

546
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: and what was appropriate work for women. So, for that reason,

547
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: even as the numbers of women in astronomy grew, there

548
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: were still pretty strict gender specific rules as to who

549
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: collected the data, who reduced it, who analyzed it, and

550
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: who published the results. Right, And that's pretty important because

551
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: who publishes results has everything to do with who gets

552
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: the awards and the accolades and the fame and fortune.

553
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: And this is coming from John Lankford and Ricky L.

554
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 1: Slaving's who wrote Gender and Science Women in American Astronomy

555
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: from eighteen fifty nine, and they talked about how the

556
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: assignment of roles that women received in astronomy reflected the

557
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: perceptions that male astronomers had of female astronomers or female

558
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: people in general, and how those roles really mirrored the

559
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: values in American culture at the time. And let's be

560
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: honest now to a little bit um, but we we

561
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: get an inequality issues sort of from the get go

562
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,439
Speaker 1: in terms of the differences in the careers of men

563
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: and women in astronomy, because it starts with entry level position,

564
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: and so women were often shunted over onto a track

565
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: with limited mobility, low pay, and little room for intellectual independence.

566
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: Only at the women's colleges, they write, did female astronomers

567
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,919
Speaker 1: have freedom to choose and research the problems that they

568
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: basically wanted to, Because you basically had these women pouring

569
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: over images of the sky for hours upon hours upon

570
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: hours looking for little hints that something major was going on,

571
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: and then they would eventually pass that data off to

572
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: a man at the observatory or at the college, and

573
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: he would get all the fortune and glory. Yeah, and

574
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: also in addition to the fortune and glory too, he

575
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: would get the place in the science textbooks, um. And

576
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: in these factory like settings. Though, yes, women were given

577
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: these low paying quote unquote clerical kinds of jobs, but

578
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: in the same way as happened with the history of

579
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: women in computer science, the kinds of calculations and the

580
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 1: data analysis that they were performing was anything but low level. Yes,

581
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: it was tedious. Yes, it involved a lot of you know,

582
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: just constantly looking almost sweeping again that word comes up

583
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: over and over again, sweeping these images of blots essentially

584
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: and trying to figure out what they meant. Um. But

585
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: this kind of work was foundational for everything that we

586
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 1: know about astronomy today. Absolutely. And so here's an example.

587
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: In the late nineteenth century, Louis Boss hired a bunch

588
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: of female high school graduates to do long and involved

589
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: calculations for him. Again scientific work, mathematical work that involved

590
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: a lot of concentration and long hours. But he hired

591
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: women who were high school graduates because he figured he

592
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: didn't need specially trained workers for the task. Men did

593
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 1: the observing through telescopes. Women were tasked with measuring spectrograms,

594
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: computing star places, and reducing photometric data. Yeah. And when

595
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: it comes to why women were considered especially right for

596
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: those kinds of tasks. It all has to do with

597
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: this assumption of women being you know, really patient and caring.

598
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: And we also did a lot of needlework that back

599
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: then there were lots of comparisons to the tedium of

600
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 1: needlework and the tedium of scanning the skies or scanning

601
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: this photometric data. Um. Even Maria Mitchell talked about this.

602
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: She said, quote routine observations dull as they are, are

603
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: less dull than the endless repetition of the same pattern

604
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: in crochet work. And she was talking about that in

605
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: the context of why women are especially fit for astronomy.

606
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: And while that might sound on the one hand it

607
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: is kind of sexist in a way, but on the

608
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: other hand, it makes sense given the constraints of the

609
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: time and what women did in their day to day

610
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 1: Mariah was simply saying, well, we already do this. We're

611
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: really good at needlework, you know what, we'd be even

612
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: better at science, right. And I mean, but this of

613
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: course tied into I mean speaking of sexism, I mean

614
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: it tied into all sorts of cultural and social ideas

615
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: at the time about what women were capable of. French

616
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: lessing or for instance, who was the longtime director of

617
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 1: the Yale University Observatory, agreed with those who came before him,

618
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: including Louis Boss, that women were more cut out for

619
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: work that called for patients and great care to avoid errors.

620
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: But quote, according to my experience, women are not as

621
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: creative as men of equal training, and like that, you know, mentally,

622
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: I just I throw all my papers up in the air,

623
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: because if you don't give women, or really anyone, if

624
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: you don't give a human person a chance to do

625
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: something amazing and creative and scientific and technical, how will

626
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: you know that they can do it or not? You know,

627
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: like women were being shunted into these more quote unquote

628
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: clerical jobs and men were the ones who were doing

629
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: all of the quote unquote creative observation work. But so,

630
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: how can you formulate an opinion that women aren't creative

631
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: in terms of astronomy when you're not even letting them

632
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: have the chance to do the work, Probably because they

633
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't even want to know that women have that opportunity,

634
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: Because if we figured that out, that women are so

635
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: capable and creative, etcetera, etcetera, then who will take care

636
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: of the buttons and breakfasts, breakfast. It's the buttons and

637
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 1: breakfast problem over and over again. Um. But even within

638
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 1: this factory like system, as we're going to talk about

639
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: in Part two of Stargazing Women, there's this guy named

640
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: Charles Pickering, who is the director of the Harvard Observatory,

641
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: who decided that he could bring all these women in

642
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: to be his so called computers and maintaining those same

643
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: constraints of just giving them this photometric data, look at it,

644
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: catalog it, do all this clerical kind of work. But

645
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: what he didn't bank on, I don't think, was the

646
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 1: sharp minds that these women had and what they would

647
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: do with this information that they were given. That literally

648
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: laid the groundwork for everything we know about stars and

649
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 1: all the subsequent astronomical discoveries that would happen in the

650
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: twentieth century. Oh, I can't wait, me neither, But listeners

651
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 1: will have to. They'll have to. But so we should

652
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: ask here at the close of part one of our

653
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: Lady Stargazers episode, who are some of the historical names

654
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: that we've left out? I mean, we couldn't talk about everybody. Yeah,

655
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: and are there any astronomers listening? I hope? So I

656
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: know we have lots of scientists among our listener base,

657
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: so we'd love to hear from you. Mom Stuff at

658
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is our email address. You

659
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcasts and messages

660
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages this

661
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: year with you when we come right back from a

662
00:40:54,239 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: quick break and now back to the show. So I've

663
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: got to let her here. From Thomas, a subject line listener,

664
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: Maile from Taiwan, Thomas writes, I'm a regular listener of

665
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 1: your podcast and wish to express my appreciation and support

666
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: of your show. I'm a high school boy studying in Taiwan,

667
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 1: and as is the case in most Asian countries, we

668
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: seldom discuss matters of gender and sex. Owing to history,

669
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: most prestigious senior high schools here only admit students of

670
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: a particular sex. I myself am studying at an all

671
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: boys institution. When I discovered your podcast, it was like

672
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: opening a treasured chest of hidden knowledge, and I learned

673
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: a lot of practical and interesting information about the opposite sex.

674
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: Needless to say, my male friends were amazed by my

675
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: new found insight. Thanks for all your episodes and although

676
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: your audience seems to be mostly female. I hope that

677
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: more guys can join the party. It would certainly create

678
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: a smarter society. So thanks so much, Thomas. We want

679
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: more guys to join the party too. Absolutely, guys, come

680
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: on smart openly. Okay, We'll have a letter here from

681
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 1: Carlyle subject Line, a newly minted lady lawyer. She says,

682
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: I was surprised to find out that most women in

683
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: law are expected to wear heels, at least in New

684
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 1: York City, where I work and at my particular firm.

685
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: I'm not a huge fan of heels, but it seems

686
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: especially ridiculous when I'm just walking around the office. Additionally,

687
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: peep too's are a huge no no. Furthermore, when I

688
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: was interviewing from my quote unquote big law job from

689
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: a top law school, I was told black or navy suit,

690
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: white button down, conservative jewelry, and heels in order to

691
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: quote not offend anyone. The struggle is real. I know

692
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: it is. Carl Lyle, thank you for your story, and

693
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at

694
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: how stuffworks dot com is our email address and for

695
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: links to all of our social media as well. As

696
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: all of our videos, blogs, and podcasts with this one,

697
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 1: including our sources. So you can learn more about Lady astronomers.

698
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff Mom Never told You dot

699
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

700
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works dot com