Speaker 1: Today's quote is from A. A. Milne, who wrote Winnie
Speaker 1: the Pooh. Because Vito life is hard, guys, it is
Speaker 1: more fun to talk with someone who doesn't use long,
Speaker 1: difficult words, but rather short, easy words like what about lunch?
Speaker 1: Welcome to Permission to Speak. The podcast about how we
Speaker 1: talk and how we get ourselves heard with me samarrow Bay.
Speaker 1: Today's guest is Ashley Nicole Black. She is known for
Speaker 1: writing on Full Frontal with Samantha b and also conducting
Speaker 1: some stunning interviews on air. We're gonna link to her
Speaker 1: Stacy Abrams special, which is brilliant and stands the test
Speaker 1: of time. She's also one of the head right ters
Speaker 1: and actors on HBO as a Black Lady's Sketch Show.
Speaker 1: And if you follow her, you know her twitter feed. Yes,
Speaker 1: she is the one who tweeted out about um Elizabeth
Speaker 1: Warren asking if she had plans for her love life
Speaker 1: and uh Luz responded and we talked about what happened
Speaker 1: after that in this conversation. I wanted to have Ashley
Speaker 1: on because I mean, she's a total comedic genius and
Speaker 1: she channels her voice on the page on screen, into
Speaker 1: advice columns, into her own podcast, which is temporarily on hold,
Speaker 1: but it's awesome and has an amazing backlog. It's called
Speaker 1: SIP on This with Ashley Nicole Black, and in our conversation,
Speaker 1: I I really appreciated her take on improv and how
Speaker 1: it teaches us to be better everything's and her absolutely
Speaker 1: unique experience. I would say, uh, leaving a PhD program
Speaker 1: where she was focused on contemporary minstrelsy to join Second
Speaker 1: City in Chicago and do improv and sketch, which led
Speaker 1: her to Hollywood. It's amazing. I should also say we
Speaker 1: recorded this very early on in the pandemic, when I
Speaker 1: had just figured out my home studio and had, as
Speaker 1: it turned out, not quite figured out my WiFi. And
Speaker 1: that's my caveat on our our timing being a little off.
Speaker 1: I think she couldn't understand everything I was saying and
Speaker 1: was being very gracious about it. But don't worry, I've
Speaker 1: since fixed the problem. But we held this one back
Speaker 1: in our archives for a little bit and I decided,
Speaker 1: you know what, look to share it because she is
Speaker 1: a wonder. This is Ashley Nicole Black. I read this
Speaker 1: amazing quote of yours. You said I was a really
Speaker 1: shy and weird kid. So I think that my parents
Speaker 1: are happy I have the ability to talk to people
Speaker 1: at all. My mom used to literally, you forced me
Speaker 1: to go outside and I used to prop my book
Speaker 1: up on the handlebars of my bike and ride in
Speaker 1: a circle. Yes, I did. And I don't think my
Speaker 1: parents think that I know it, because they told me.
Speaker 1: They were like, we're so happy it worked out because
Speaker 1: you were so weird and we just wondered if you
Speaker 1: were going to be okay. I mean for all of
Speaker 1: us waiting here, Um, how do you like? What do
Speaker 1: you when you think of her and you think of
Speaker 1: you now? Do you have trouble like squaring who those
Speaker 1: two people are or does it seem like it's a
Speaker 1: completely linear progression from that girl with the handlebars? Um,
Speaker 1: it is a completely linear progression. I think when I
Speaker 1: was a kid, I was like a really smart kid,
Speaker 1: like hi, I q low eq. I didn't like understand
Speaker 1: what was happening with people. So I would like often
Speaker 1: be like thinking really hard about something and then just
Speaker 1: start a conversation in the middle of that thought process.
Speaker 1: And my parents had to teach me like you gotta
Speaker 1: say hello to people and where they are and then
Speaker 1: start the beginning of the conversation to bring them along
Speaker 1: with you. It wasn't like a natural thing for me,
Speaker 1: but I was like, did you actually try that? I mean,
Speaker 1: do you remember really actively being like, let me try
Speaker 1: doing that thing. My parents told me it works well, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and they are great communicators, like my dad's a minister, um,
Speaker 1: and so like being a good communicator, it was like
Speaker 1: an important thing in our household. It was like a job.
Speaker 1: It was something you've learned to do. Um. And I
Speaker 1: was also like a super curious kid, and like my
Speaker 1: parents didn't believe in like giving children answers to questions,
Speaker 1: like if you wanted to know how something worked, you
Speaker 1: could pull out the dictionary or like eventually, um, you
Speaker 1: could ask jeeves and uh find out about it. And
Speaker 1: so it was like it was so interesting in finding
Speaker 1: out about things that I had to learn how to
Speaker 1: like communicate those things to people. Mm. Yeah. That makes
Speaker 1: me think of when I was like when I've been
Speaker 1: a teacher or a coach and people are asking me
Speaker 1: things that I don't actually think are that relevant to
Speaker 1: the act coaching, like why is it that this accent
Speaker 1: sounds like this? And I'm always like, great questions to
Speaker 1: let me know. It's such a relief to be able
Speaker 1: to just be like the person who has the thought
Speaker 1: has to solve it for themselves. Yeah, okay, so that
Speaker 1: was so it worked in a way because now I
Speaker 1: feel like you're a great not only are you a
Speaker 1: great communicator, but you've actually used that particular skill. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking specifically of like when you're on Samantha b
Speaker 1: And and question asking and being really present with people
Speaker 1: was like the job. Yeah, I think like I started
Speaker 1: doing improv um because I thought it was fun and
Speaker 1: I enjoyed performing um. But the thing of improv is
Speaker 1: like listening very deeply to people and like responding to
Speaker 1: them from a place of yes um. And so then
Speaker 1: when I got that job, it's not really a job
Speaker 1: that you can train for because like before it started
Speaker 1: with like just the Daily Show. Now there are more
Speaker 1: shows that do that, but you would there wouldn't be
Speaker 1: like a college class on how to be a fake
Speaker 1: news correspondent because there was like one show that was
Speaker 1: doing that. So once when I started doing it, I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I don't know if I know how
Speaker 1: to do this. And I was really lucky to get
Speaker 1: to observe Sam, who is the absolute best at it,
Speaker 1: and I sort of like the thing that she does
Speaker 1: so well. She's such a like open empathetic person that
Speaker 1: people immediately feel very comfortable with her to the point
Speaker 1: where she can do I've seen her do the most
Speaker 1: wild things in front of people and they're just so
Speaker 1: in love with her that they just sit there while
Speaker 1: she like does a whole comedy routine and they're just like,
Speaker 1: I trust this lady, I'm sure this is going somewhere. Um.
Speaker 1: So I was never like quite that good at it,
Speaker 1: but at the formula that worked for me, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's like doing improv with someone who doesn't know how
Speaker 1: to do it and doesn't know that they are doing it,
Speaker 1: and so you're just like saying yes to whatever it
Speaker 1: is they're doing. And sometimes you physically have to like
Speaker 1: hold people on camera like you you wouldn't be able
Speaker 1: to tell, but behind their I'm like physically holding them
Speaker 1: from running away because some people's impulse when they see
Speaker 1: a cameras to retreat and you're like, so you're like
Speaker 1: trying to listen to them and remember all the things
Speaker 1: that you need to talk about and like stay on topic.
Speaker 1: And get what you need for the piece, but also
Speaker 1: somehow physically radiate like trust and confidence and physically keep
Speaker 1: them in fraight. How do you besides the physical part
Speaker 1: with your hand, how do you like what do you
Speaker 1: what is the actual technically speaking, how do you do
Speaker 1: that radiating? Like do just think that thought and then
Speaker 1: just and then just run with it? Um? I try
Speaker 1: to just like tell people they're doing a good job
Speaker 1: and like you're okay. This is because like a lot
Speaker 1: of times people think they are supposed to be funny
Speaker 1: and like they're not. Like, all you need to do
Speaker 1: in this moment is be honest and tell me your
Speaker 1: real opinions and um, sort of reassuring people that like
Speaker 1: that's enough that you don't need to entertain me or
Speaker 1: the idea of the audience. Like literally, if you just
Speaker 1: tell me the truth, you will have done the perfect thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's amazing. It also makes me wonder, like, um, can
Speaker 1: you tell us about I want to get into everything
Speaker 1: with your PhD program and your and your leaving of
Speaker 1: the PhD program for improv you you you like left
Speaker 1: the old lover for the new lover. Um but but um,
Speaker 1: but actually, yeah, let me just start there. So I
Speaker 1: want to get back to talking about improv. But first,
Speaker 1: what was Will you set the scene of what was
Speaker 1: happening for you academically when you discovered sketch and comedy. Um. Yes,
Speaker 1: so I went to grad school like half because I
Speaker 1: was good at that kind of work, like I enjoy theory,
Speaker 1: I enjoy writing, I enjoy like solving and figuring out
Speaker 1: a problem. Um. But also half because the thing I
Speaker 1: really wanted to do, which was be an actor, didn't
Speaker 1: seem accessible to me. I also, by the way I
Speaker 1: read that you were talking about in college, like never
Speaker 1: getting cast as the lead, um, which I really which
Speaker 1: really resonates with me. I always and I think this
Speaker 1: is still true, but certainly wasn't that time. I always
Speaker 1: was like whatever the smallest character, they could still be
Speaker 1: considered a lead character. Was like, I wasn't garbage. I
Speaker 1: was trying myself as like a B plus actor, Like
Speaker 1: I it's not bad. I just was never going to
Speaker 1: be the lead, and in retrospect was often playing like
Speaker 1: the comic relief character. But wasn't like president enough to
Speaker 1: realize that I was funny. I was just like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm not pretty. I don't get to be the girl who,
Speaker 1: like someone falls in love with, but also a lot
Speaker 1: of times that character is quite boring and there's more
Speaker 1: fun funny yes, character off to the side, Yes, which
Speaker 1: is the same. I remember I got an I got
Speaker 1: an m f A in acting. And so there was like,
Speaker 1: you know, eight girls at guys in my class, and
Speaker 1: the very the third year they had, um somebody like
Speaker 1: it was so theater based, and then suddenly they had
Speaker 1: somebody from Hollywood pop in and be like, so, here
Speaker 1: are your types. Yes, and he went through and literally
Speaker 1: every single person in my class was you're the lead,
Speaker 1: You're the best friend, You're the lead, you're the best friend.
Speaker 1: I was the one who they said was the character actor. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my god, this makes so
Speaker 1: much sense of why I've always felt like the weird
Speaker 1: outsider in my grad school class, and also why no
Speaker 1: one knows what to do with me except just put
Speaker 1: me in the funny role and like, let her solve
Speaker 1: that thing. One of those where um, there's like a
Speaker 1: list of the types of characters you would play, and
Speaker 1: everyone's like a cop and FBI agent, lawyer, you know whatever,
Speaker 1: and mine were all like a nurse assistant, district attorney,
Speaker 1: a beat cop. It was an assistant version of every job.
Speaker 1: I mean, so you were like, let me actually talk
Speaker 1: about the theory of minstrulsy because this acting thing might
Speaker 1: not be for me. Um. I mean, I'm it's a joke,
Speaker 1: but it's also not a joke because I was so
Speaker 1: my my my jaw dropped when I read what you
Speaker 1: had were actually, you know, going for your PhD for
Speaker 1: the subject matter. Yeah, And I'd love to tell people
Speaker 1: about it because blackface minstrelsy is the first American art form.
Speaker 1: It's the first art that Americans created. Uh. And there's
Speaker 1: still so many like things that we think of is
Speaker 1: like classic comedy bits and tropes that originated from minstrelsy. Um.
Speaker 1: And so it was a really interesting thing to study.
Speaker 1: And I've heard you even say that like like like sitcom,
Speaker 1: like what we think of as sitcom, but UMPA has
Speaker 1: its roots. Yeah. And so it's like now, being a
Speaker 1: person who makes television, I'm really glad that I had
Speaker 1: that background. Um. But at the time I was just
Speaker 1: like in academia and was again like sort of good
Speaker 1: at it, but I wasn't enjoying it. And the people
Speaker 1: that want to be in that world. We're just not
Speaker 1: my people. I really really enjoyed teaching and working with students,
Speaker 1: and I was able to teach like when you're teaching performance,
Speaker 1: like a lot of students think they're going to be
Speaker 1: an actor or something, and a lot of them are
Speaker 1: just not based on the numbers. But what was more
Speaker 1: important to me was like I was able to get
Speaker 1: students to like stand up straighter and be more confident
Speaker 1: in their bodies and like use their voices to their fullness.
Speaker 1: Nothing makes me want to dig into a human more
Speaker 1: than a woman who only uses the top half of
Speaker 1: her voice and I know there's more voice, and it
Speaker 1: like if I meet her in a bar, I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: we're gonna like I would love to get in there
Speaker 1: and just just find the bottom of that register. Just
Speaker 1: people have their whole voice. I mean absolutely, obviously I'm
Speaker 1: in your club if you'll have UM. I also feel
Speaker 1: like that the vocal equipment, the language equivalent of that
Speaker 1: is people who say I'm fine. I mean obviously, like
Speaker 1: sometimes we're just like we don't need to engage whatever,
Speaker 1: but I'm fine voice that really sounds like somebody's trying
Speaker 1: to convince you. But they're convinced you with like a
Speaker 1: quarter of their range. I'm fine, Yeah, it's fine, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, right, Actually, while we're here, tell us more
Speaker 1: about teaching. Do you remember anyone specifically that you helped.
Speaker 1: I went straight from undergrad to grad school, so I
Speaker 1: was like the same age as or a year older
Speaker 1: than my students, which was very strange. I didn't always
Speaker 1: feel very effective, but I remember we did like a
Speaker 1: class performance, and um, this student's parents came up to
Speaker 1: me after the performance and we're like, what did you do?
Speaker 1: Just like complete shot and I didn't even understand what
Speaker 1: was happening. And I thought, like, we're their dirty words
Speaker 1: in the show that they weren't, and they were like,
Speaker 1: he never heard him say more than like five words
Speaker 1: in a row. He's so shy, and he just stood
Speaker 1: up there and gave like a whole performance. What did
Speaker 1: you do to him? And I was like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but it feels so good to know that you've given
Speaker 1: someone permission, yeah, mission, and like the space to access
Speaker 1: a part of themselves that obviously they already had, but
Speaker 1: maybe they just were never in a space where someone said,
Speaker 1: like I want to see this part of you yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean so much of this work is about um.
Speaker 1: I mean I said, you know he held permission because
Speaker 1: the it's the word that's in my title. But you know,
Speaker 1: the reality is part of giving somebody permission. It's not
Speaker 1: just like you know, finger wagging and saying you have permission.
Speaker 1: It's about like saying, you might have felt like you
Speaker 1: were in spaces that were too scary to handle you. You
Speaker 1: You might have been right, but it also might have
Speaker 1: become a habit. Yeah, so what if we put you
Speaker 1: in a really safe space and and figure out who's
Speaker 1: in there that hasn't felt safe to come out? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it has to be truly safe. I think sometimes
Speaker 1: the word safe space has become like a buzzword and
Speaker 1: people say like, oh, we want this job to be
Speaker 1: a safe space, but it isn't. And like truly creating
Speaker 1: a space where it's like there's no wrong answer here.
Speaker 1: And I taught comedy writing, so I had students right
Speaker 1: scenes that offended me, like as a woman, as a
Speaker 1: person of color, and it's like, but this is a
Speaker 1: safe space, and so we're going to talk about this
Speaker 1: scene on its merits and no one's judging you for
Speaker 1: having written it. The audience probably doesn't want to see it,
Speaker 1: and let's talk about that. But like this is off
Speaker 1: because also like how is that safe for you? Then?
Speaker 1: You know, I mean it isn't always. But the good
Speaker 1: thing is like when you are being um offensive in
Speaker 1: a racial way or a gender way, you're also often
Speaker 1: doing bad comedy. So as a teacher, it's very easy
Speaker 1: to be like, here's why this is bad comedy, and
Speaker 1: that's what I'm here to teach you. I've distracted because
Speaker 1: my dog is sleeping and she's doing really cute little
Speaker 1: barks in her sleep. What's happening? Do you think she's
Speaker 1: talking to somebody some dreams. She's probably being real tough
Speaker 1: in her dream. I think, are you walking her? And
Speaker 1: like is she getting interaction or how is how is quarantine?
Speaker 1: She's really missing the interaction because she's like a very cute,
Speaker 1: little chunky dog and so normally when we walk, like
Speaker 1: strangers want to stop and pet her. And I think
Speaker 1: she sort of went through a crisis of like nobody's
Speaker 1: stopping to pet me and might not cute me. More
Speaker 1: like what's going on? I mean, she's all of us. Um,
Speaker 1: So when you were teaching, you had already found second
Speaker 1: city and you were already doing improvince catch. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: started um studying at the second city while so I
Speaker 1: did my masters and then I did my PhD. So
Speaker 1: I was I started um studying a second city. I
Speaker 1: think like at the same time I started my PhD.
Speaker 1: UM So I was truly like going to school during
Speaker 1: the day and teaching and then like doing comedy at
Speaker 1: night and like coming in hungover to teach. It was
Speaker 1: like a very weird totally. And what were you thinking
Speaker 1: in terms of I mean, were you thinking as sort
Speaker 1: of obviously as it is now that you were like
Speaker 1: both studying performance and then also doing it and sort
Speaker 1: of had like the theory and practice being like jammed
Speaker 1: up against each other. I was, but weirdly, like the
Speaker 1: school was not interested in that. They're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: this thing. Like when you hear performance studies, one of
Speaker 1: the tenants of performance studies is that everything is performance
Speaker 1: gender as a performance. And so in that vein, you
Speaker 1: would think if you're doing drag or improv or comedy
Speaker 1: or whatever, those would all be equally as interesting areas
Speaker 1: of of practice and study. But actually they're they're interested
Speaker 1: in like um important performance, like performance are and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. So doing improv was just like, we don't
Speaker 1: know why you're doing this, and it's not helping you
Speaker 1: to be doing this, and um, it was so much
Speaker 1: more fun and fulfilling. Was just like, well, I guess
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go do that academia van yeah, and where
Speaker 1: big thoughts happen and then they're sort of locked away
Speaker 1: for only people who can access them. Um, And then
Speaker 1: I would come to realize that I was doing sketch comedy,
Speaker 1: like oh, I could do a sketch about the same idea,
Speaker 1: and obviously it's like a very different form and can
Speaker 1: be much less nuanced, But three hundred people are in
Speaker 1: the audience tonight who can immediately access this thought, as
Speaker 1: opposed to like, oh, I wrote a book and it
Speaker 1: took like years to get it published, and I forced
Speaker 1: my students to buy it. The students who can afford
Speaker 1: this very expensive, rarefied education will be forced to buy
Speaker 1: this book and maybe they'll read it, and maybe they
Speaker 1: won't write right. I have a question from a friend
Speaker 1: that is along these lines. She wrote to me and
Speaker 1: wanted me to ask you, how do you maintain the
Speaker 1: balance between being ironic or funny and being taken seriously
Speaker 1: when you address thoughtful and complicated or complex topics like
Speaker 1: where and how as a creative do you draw the line?
Speaker 1: And then she also wrote, um, we love you women,
Speaker 1: and thank you. That's very kind. Um, I sort of
Speaker 1: it's a really interesting question. I don't always expect to
Speaker 1: be taken seriously. Um. Just like as a young woman
Speaker 1: of color in this business, I sort of know that
Speaker 1: when I start to engage, I'm starting from a place
Speaker 1: of not being taken seriously. And rather than like be
Speaker 1: angry about that, I just enjoy the playing with that,
Speaker 1: and like there's I really enjoy the moment it happens
Speaker 1: in interviews and meetings in like from an audience member,
Speaker 1: the moment where someone sits forward and they're like, oh, ship,
Speaker 1: she's good at this is like my favorite and I
Speaker 1: like to wait for it and clock it and see
Speaker 1: how long it took me to get there. So rather
Speaker 1: than like be mad that I don't get to start
Speaker 1: with that and the way that some people do, I
Speaker 1: just enjoy watching that person be forced to like give
Speaker 1: me that moment eventually. Um. So I don't I don't
Speaker 1: feel like a pressure about being taken seriously. I do
Speaker 1: feel a pressure about being understood because one of the
Speaker 1: things with comedy is like you could write something that's
Speaker 1: super funny, but if it's about a topic that serious
Speaker 1: are important, and people are unclear whether or not you
Speaker 1: take it seriously, then they can, you know, rightfully get
Speaker 1: very upset or not rightfully but pretend to get upset
Speaker 1: because it's fun to like be mean to people on
Speaker 1: the internet. And so I think, like less than being
Speaker 1: taken seriously, it's like really important to me to be
Speaker 1: understood and to be clear. And the times when I
Speaker 1: have gotten in trouble, I can look back and say, like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know what, maybe that statement wasn't a hundred percent
Speaker 1: clear and there is room for interpretation here um, and
Speaker 1: try to limit that. The other part of the question,
Speaker 1: I think, which is which is feels really relevant for
Speaker 1: me and for for a lot of us who are
Speaker 1: trying to live in this space where where approaching a
Speaker 1: lot of the absurdity of life with the absurdity it deserves,
Speaker 1: but also with the gravitas that it deserves. If it's
Speaker 1: like hurting people's you know, if this is if it's
Speaker 1: heavy is um, it's like how do you figure out
Speaker 1: how to be funny about things that are serious, because
Speaker 1: that is something that you actually are an expert on. Um. Weirdly,
Speaker 1: like as I said, I was not. I had to
Speaker 1: learn to be a better communicator and as a kid,
Speaker 1: like the times where I was most angry or most sad,
Speaker 1: a lot of times people would laugh, Like just my
Speaker 1: natural expression of my feelings causes laughter. Um, so I
Speaker 1: found a way to make money off of it. Um.
Speaker 1: But I think, like, so what you're saying is you
Speaker 1: just talk seriously about serious things and people had people
Speaker 1: fill in their own ships. I mean sometimes you do,
Speaker 1: like there are certain jokes structures that you know we're
Speaker 1: gonna work, and like if you can put something into
Speaker 1: one of those structures, what does that mean? Wait, will
Speaker 1: you tell me what you mean by a joke structure?
Speaker 1: Just like when you've been doing it for a while,
Speaker 1: Like there are just certain jokes that like work, and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, if I can figure out how to
Speaker 1: say this in this way, it's going to get a laugh.
Speaker 1: But also people will listen to it is the the
Speaker 1: real thing behind it. So there there is some of that,
Speaker 1: but there's also like I think a lot of times
Speaker 1: laughter comes from like surprise, um. And there are just
Speaker 1: so many things that are like obviously happening that we
Speaker 1: either don't talk about because we don't want admit it
Speaker 1: to ourselves or like we feel that we can't talk
Speaker 1: about for political reasons. And sometimes someone just saying the
Speaker 1: thing is funny because it's like, oh, ship, I can't
Speaker 1: believe someone actually said it. Yeah, yeah, which which feels
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's tapping into that like age old
Speaker 1: aspect of comedy, that is the speaking truth to power part,
Speaker 1: the court jester part. It's like, if I do it
Speaker 1: with a little bit of a wink of ha ha,
Speaker 1: I'll just I'll be the one who just says the
Speaker 1: thing yeah, and then the tension release of like, oh,
Speaker 1: finally it's been mentioned to someone said it the thing. Um, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and come right back.
Speaker 1: Can we talk about doing voices? Yes? So, I mean,
Speaker 1: first of all, um, a Black Lady Scotch show, you
Speaker 1: write at least some of your own characters. How do
Speaker 1: you figure out how they're gonna sound? Such a good question,
Speaker 1: for example, like Trinity versus the Influencer girl, the most
Speaker 1: annoying woman in the world. Um, because also like you're
Speaker 1: you're also I mean, I'm I'm also asking because like
Speaker 1: you're kind of like playing in stereotypes and vocal stereotypes.
Speaker 1: And then also like I always feel like you're doing
Speaker 1: it with a real like sense of I know what
Speaker 1: I'm doing, you know. Yeah, it's like, first of all,
Speaker 1: just fun because I started out training as a singer
Speaker 1: and so like learning how to access those different parts
Speaker 1: of my voice, and it's very fun to like bring
Speaker 1: like the the trend ay voices more so in my
Speaker 1: chest close to my real voice. She's a very honest person.
Speaker 1: She's also not she's unrecognized, but she also uses that
Speaker 1: to her advantage. She's not trying to be recognized, so
Speaker 1: her voice is going to be a little bit lower
Speaker 1: and quieter, and she's okay going under the radar um
Speaker 1: whereas uh, the most annoying woman in the world. That
Speaker 1: voice comes out of the top of my head, which
Speaker 1: is like an opera register, and it's it's like both
Speaker 1: someone who's trying it's incredibly difficult to speak from there,
Speaker 1: like and she's a person who's trying very hard. Like
Speaker 1: she's definitely a try hard but also she wants the
Speaker 1: most attention she's working really hard for it, but she's
Speaker 1: also not real. Like the fullness of your voice comes
Speaker 1: from much lower in your body, so it's sort of
Speaker 1: like a voice that tells you that a person is
Speaker 1: being artificial. And one of the things that was interesting
Speaker 1: about that sketch, Lauren ashes Smith, who's a genius, wrote
Speaker 1: that sketch, and it was in the South, and I
Speaker 1: was like, do I do a Southern accent? Because a
Speaker 1: person who came from this place would have one, except
Speaker 1: for that she's pretending to be someone else, so she
Speaker 1: almost has like a valley girl accent, even though she's
Speaker 1: not from there and has never been there, because she's
Speaker 1: like trying to present herself as an idea of a
Speaker 1: person that's not real. It's also like a thing about femininity,
Speaker 1: like for what one woman is trying to do, excessive
Speaker 1: femininity is useful, and for what the other one is
Speaker 1: trying to do, it Isn't you know what I mean
Speaker 1: to the idea of femininity is not a given but
Speaker 1: a tool. Um, And we all know I get super
Speaker 1: feminine when I get pulled over by the cops, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like we know when that tool
Speaker 1: is to our use and when it isn't, and it's
Speaker 1: very fun to play with. I love that. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I talked about this a lot because I often
Speaker 1: say that this podcast is about how to use your
Speaker 1: voice to get what you want, but what you want
Speaker 1: is different in different scenarios. So yes, we have an
Speaker 1: quote unquote authentic voice that sounds like it's I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, from our actual anatomy and feels true, rings true,
Speaker 1: But also we have more than one authentic voice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and like to me, like, the only reason to communicate
Speaker 1: is to affect another person, And where constantly as human beings, um,
Speaker 1: what's the word, like analyzing and thinking about how can
Speaker 1: I be most effective in what I'm trying to get done.
Speaker 1: Whether it's like you're trying to get your kid to
Speaker 1: put their shoes on, is like how much raising my
Speaker 1: voice will get them to do it faster? And if
Speaker 1: I go too far with that and I make the
Speaker 1: kid cry, now we're waiting even longer to to get
Speaker 1: out the door. We're constantly like having those negotiations in
Speaker 1: real life, and those are the things I think that
Speaker 1: make acting in characters really feel real and lived in,
Speaker 1: because those are the calculations that people are making totally.
Speaker 1: And actually that's such a great way to put it too,
Speaker 1: because sometimes it seems like, you know, anybody has gone
Speaker 1: through any acting training knows that that part of the
Speaker 1: sort of central way that the actors think about breaking
Speaker 1: down you know, script written by not them or even
Speaker 1: written by them, I guess, is like, what what does
Speaker 1: my character want in this moment? And sometimes that feels
Speaker 1: sort of calculated and disconnected, but it's a you know,
Speaker 1: obviously important to remember that that's actually what we're thinking
Speaker 1: about in real life all the time. We're just not
Speaker 1: necessarily thinking how do I use my voice to get
Speaker 1: what I want in this moment? But we are We're
Speaker 1: just not necessarily thinking about it intellectually. Yeah, it's more
Speaker 1: instinctive or we're or we're like constantly uh trialing different things,
Speaker 1: you know, like you said with the kid with the
Speaker 1: kid thing like whatever naturally comes out and then oops,
Speaker 1: that didn't work, let me pivot, do you know? Um?
Speaker 1: I actually, I mean I get really literal with that
Speaker 1: because I'm me, and so if I have to tell
Speaker 1: my kid to do something more than once in like
Speaker 1: the third or fourth time, is when I have to
Speaker 1: like raise my voice and then he does it, I
Speaker 1: totally Oh my god, I sound so manipulative, but I
Speaker 1: totally dropped my voice back down, and I say, so
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're asking me to yell at you
Speaker 1: because you only did the thing when I yelled. Is
Speaker 1: that what you're teaching me? You know? And then he
Speaker 1: has to think of out it? God, it does seem
Speaker 1: like that's sort of what I was teaching you. Mom.
Speaker 1: Was such an hussle. It adds a little spice to
Speaker 1: my day. What can I say? But no, I mean,
Speaker 1: but you're right with everybody, like we we were trying.
Speaker 1: The reason we're all trying to have our feelers on
Speaker 1: all the time and have a high EQ, as you say,
Speaker 1: is because obviously the more that we can read a room,
Speaker 1: the more we can get what we want, even if
Speaker 1: what we want is just to be understood, not not
Speaker 1: necessarily to like, you know, get something transactional from someone.
Speaker 1: Did you did you lose me there? Sorry? That was
Speaker 1: Oh I'm good. Can you tell me what the process
Speaker 1: was of getting better at improv? Oh? Um? Really good question?
Speaker 1: Like do you remember sucking at it? Sucking at it
Speaker 1: is too strong, but you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: the honing part this is gonna be so crunchy, and
Speaker 1: is coming from a person who taught improv for many years.
Speaker 1: I don't think that anybody sucks at improv, and so
Speaker 1: I don't inexperience myself as sucking it improv. I think
Speaker 1: what you can be bad at is being yourself on stage.
Speaker 1: That like I think like when you're hanging out with
Speaker 1: your family or your friends and people you're close to,
Speaker 1: you feel very comfortable and that's probably closest to your
Speaker 1: true self. And for a lot of people, when you
Speaker 1: get on stage, when a camera gets into your face,
Speaker 1: you get uncomfortable and it's very difficult to be your
Speaker 1: true self in that situation. And all improv is teaching
Speaker 1: you to do is to shut off that part of
Speaker 1: your brain that's criticizing you or telling or making you
Speaker 1: overthink everything before you say it, or telling you your
Speaker 1: body is not good enough and you should hide it,
Speaker 1: or whatever it is your brain does in that moment,
Speaker 1: and you're training to stop listening to that and to
Speaker 1: go back to your normal natural reactions, or like some
Speaker 1: people describe it as like learning to play. Like when
Speaker 1: we were children, we played um without a lot of
Speaker 1: self doubt and and in negative self talk, and then
Speaker 1: as an adult you learn all of these rules of
Speaker 1: how you're not supposed to do that. You're not supposed
Speaker 1: to honestly tell this person what you think of them,
Speaker 1: You're not supposed to honestly respond in this moment. You're
Speaker 1: supposed to be like a good work or whatever role
Speaker 1: it is you're supposed to play. And now all of
Speaker 1: those thoughts are between you and that person who used
Speaker 1: to just like, I just met a friends baby over zoom,
Speaker 1: which is infuriating, like I should get to kiss that baby,
Speaker 1: but um, she's you know, has a slight inconvenience and
Speaker 1: she starts wailing because that's her feel She feels, I
Speaker 1: don't feel good. Somebody fix it, and we like learn
Speaker 1: so much to stop doing that. And all improv is
Speaker 1: is going back to being that person who, when they
Speaker 1: have a slight feeling, says or does the thing. Um.
Speaker 1: And so I don't think I experience its experienced it
Speaker 1: as being bad at improv, but I did experience being like, oh,
Speaker 1: when I felt that moment of fear, I said the
Speaker 1: thing anyway, and I got a huge laugh. And that's
Speaker 1: true every time. And eventually I got to the point
Speaker 1: where when I feel that moment of fear, I get
Speaker 1: excited because I know what means a laugh is coming.
Speaker 1: That is huge. That's because it's so that's so, that's
Speaker 1: actually such a I mean, that's such a tangible way
Speaker 1: for people to think about it who are maybe experiencing
Speaker 1: the same thing, Like just to trust that that feeling
Speaker 1: means keep going, it doesn't mean back off. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it It's changed my whole life. Like I truly believe
Speaker 1: everyone should take improv classes. Obviously not everyone should be
Speaker 1: an improviser. It's not a job. You can't make money
Speaker 1: doing it. But everyone should take improp classes because it
Speaker 1: made me better at everything. Like I was a person
Speaker 1: who couldn't like go on vacation and relax because in
Speaker 1: that environment everything is not like controlled and planned. And
Speaker 1: I learned to yes and and just be like okay,
Speaker 1: I'm here now, you know whatever, Like oh, there's a
Speaker 1: restaurant down the street, I'll try that one. If it's
Speaker 1: not good, I'll live, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: you just learned to go with the flow more. I
Speaker 1: always I always, um, I realized yours a go. That
Speaker 1: like a great way for me to figure out like
Speaker 1: people in my life that I've sort of gravitate towards
Speaker 1: versus need to like have some boundaries around is yes
Speaker 1: and people versus no. But people, and I'm not judging
Speaker 1: them like no, but people often are just like not
Speaker 1: yet yes and people God God willing. But but yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the yes and energy just permeates into every
Speaker 1: every way that we approach every tiny, tiny thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It just allows you to like find things interesting instead
Speaker 1: of scary, Like someone says something that you wouldn't normally
Speaker 1: think or that you it's very different from you, and
Speaker 1: allows you to be like, oh, that's interesting, tell me
Speaker 1: more about that, instead of just being like, no, go away,
Speaker 1: I don't like it. Which, also, by the way, is
Speaker 1: the secret when you're around your kid too much hashtag
Speaker 1: quarantine tip. You know, but I mean whatever, it's it's
Speaker 1: too much. It's too much for everybody. But you know,
Speaker 1: it is true that in those moments when they're being
Speaker 1: you know, quote unquote annoying, you can also be like,
Speaker 1: remain curious. Remain curious. This is such an interesting human
Speaker 1: who is having their moment? What is this? What can
Speaker 1: I learn about humans from this moment? Yeah? I am
Speaker 1: not a parent, and so my favorite developmental phrases when
Speaker 1: a kid learns the word no and they're like trying
Speaker 1: to figure out how no works, and you're like, do
Speaker 1: you want a raspberry? And they're like no, and it's like,
Speaker 1: I know you do, but this is how no works.
Speaker 1: You said no, and so now no raspberry, and let's
Speaker 1: sit here until you figure out that you do. I'm
Speaker 1: also a fan of like if my kid says no
Speaker 1: a lot, I'm always like, so find one thing to
Speaker 1: say yes to right now. Just try it, just try it,
Speaker 1: just try it. And then he has to and then
Speaker 1: he's like this was not meant to become a podcast
Speaker 1: about mothering, but like you know what this quarantine times
Speaker 1: everything changes. Um. I want to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about writer's rooms. You've been in a number of them
Speaker 1: at this point, and a number of really cool ones.
Speaker 1: It seems like, I mean, I'm referring to Samantha b
Speaker 1: a Black Ladies Gut Show and also bless this Mess. Yes,
Speaker 1: and also you've talked about the epitome of those moments
Speaker 1: that didn't work and maybe previous experiences where what I've
Speaker 1: heard you say is something about like when your references
Speaker 1: don't land and it made me realize that one way
Speaker 1: I'm always thinking about how power works, you know, and
Speaker 1: one way that we can talk about power is when
Speaker 1: you bring in a reference that somebody doesn't get. The
Speaker 1: power is in people assuming I bet it's relevant, I
Speaker 1: should go look it up. And when you don't have
Speaker 1: the power, it's assuming that doesn't sound relevant. I don't
Speaker 1: know what she's thinking about anyway. Yeah, that is so
Speaker 1: a true in comedy and difficult to articulate at times
Speaker 1: because people will say this is funny and this is
Speaker 1: not funny, and that exists. But a lot of times
Speaker 1: what you're saying is I understand this, and I don't
Speaker 1: understand this. And because you understand and recognize something it's
Speaker 1: funny to you, that doesn't mean that everyone else understands
Speaker 1: and recognizes it. And it also doesn't mean that the
Speaker 1: things that you don't understand and recognize are not funny
Speaker 1: to someone. So, like, the example I always use, because
Speaker 1: it's universally true in writer's rooms is that like men
Speaker 1: will always like put in a Star Wars reference and
Speaker 1: then they'll be like, now it's a joke, and you're like,
Speaker 1: it is for people who have seen Star Wars which
Speaker 1: you think is everyone, but it's not everyone, or or
Speaker 1: I would argue even like people who have seen like
Speaker 1: people who've seen Star Wars and also think that Star
Speaker 1: Wars references are funny because I've seen Star Wars, but
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, right, it seems seems trawn, seems overtrawed.
Speaker 1: Well there's like that laugh of recognition of like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're all on the same page. And you might have
Speaker 1: that about Star Wars, but like in the Black Lady
Speaker 1: Sketch show Room, so many moments like that are about
Speaker 1: like things that happen in black churches that like, I
Speaker 1: know there are many people who would be like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's not funny, and it's like, actually, it's hilarious. You
Speaker 1: just never were a child growing up in a black
Speaker 1: church and that's a specific experience. Yeah, well in the whole,
Speaker 1: And that's the whole idea of like you know, quote
Speaker 1: unquote centering other people's stories that like we get to
Speaker 1: like not have there be one kind of funny anymore.
Speaker 1: We've got not one kind of point of view anymore.
Speaker 1: And you know, most of us, I guess I don't
Speaker 1: know the number, so I shouldn't say most of us,
Speaker 1: but a lot of us are not interested in, you know,
Speaker 1: just the thing that used to be funny fifty years ago. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think also, I've totally found, both in live comedy
Speaker 1: and in television that audiences will laugh at anything that's
Speaker 1: funny and they don't have to know the reference. And
Speaker 1: there are ways like package things where like even if
Speaker 1: you don't know the reference to jokes still works. And
Speaker 1: for the most part, if it's interesting and compelling and funny,
Speaker 1: audiences will enjoy it. And the problem is not that
Speaker 1: the problem is like gatekeepers who assume the audience isn't
Speaker 1: going to enjoy that thing. Yes, yes, I've heard you
Speaker 1: talk about this. Yes, can you say a little bit
Speaker 1: more about what you mean. It's like the people who
Speaker 1: are kind of scared of the audience rather than the
Speaker 1: audience themselves. But they also maybe are the ones who
Speaker 1: cut your checks. Yeah, people who are like, oh, people
Speaker 1: don't know what this is, or white people won't know
Speaker 1: what this is and therefore won't work. And it's like
Speaker 1: one of the cool things about having trained in Chicago's
Speaker 1: that you perform in front of the audience that um,
Speaker 1: first of all, very comedy savvy audiences who watch a
Speaker 1: ton of comedy, but also people who are just like
Speaker 1: driving down from Indiana to see a show and they
Speaker 1: know everything, Like I don't know why, um, the powers
Speaker 1: that be have like decided that like the Internet and
Speaker 1: television and having friends doesn't exist and people aren't capable
Speaker 1: of finding out about other experiences other than their own.
Speaker 1: But for the most part, people do know about things
Speaker 1: and are and are like hungry for it, like like
Speaker 1: you know, if you get up there, I want you
Speaker 1: to talk about you. Also, they like if people have
Speaker 1: paid money to watch something they want to laugh at it,
Speaker 1: They're gonna give you those first few minutes to hook
Speaker 1: them in because they're like I left my house, I
Speaker 1: got a babysitter. Be funny. Also tell me if this
Speaker 1: feels true or not true. But it also makes me
Speaker 1: think about you know that there's this sort of angel
Speaker 1: truism that when we're really really specific about our experience,
Speaker 1: even if it's when no one else has shared, it
Speaker 1: rings true. There's something I mean, you know, the more specific,
Speaker 1: the more universal, Like I'm thinking about it makes me
Speaker 1: think of Hannah Gadsby's The Net. Like much of the
Speaker 1: content of that of her life experience, I have not had,
Speaker 1: but like the deeper stuff, I'm like that human to human,
Speaker 1: I see you, you know, I see me better because
Speaker 1: I see you, And I'm sure that like some jokes
Speaker 1: about you know, black church ladies that I haven't necessarily
Speaker 1: been in the church next to will still be like
Speaker 1: I see what, I see what that is about how
Speaker 1: humans are? Yeah, because you're like, I know what an
Speaker 1: authority figure is, I know what a generational divide is.
Speaker 1: Like I've experienced a nosy person before. Like the more
Speaker 1: specific you can be, the more it becomes because at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, like it's always about love
Speaker 1: or fear or something that every human has experienced. Okay,
Speaker 1: I have two questions that are actually I think two
Speaker 1: parts of the same question now that I think about it.
Speaker 1: One of them is about writer's block or jokes that
Speaker 1: aren't working or sketches that aren't Like you were talking
Speaker 1: about somewhere about the the second Act of Trinity and
Speaker 1: like not quite you know, like having weeks of sort
Speaker 1: of like what is that? So I want to talk
Speaker 1: about that. But the other side of that, which is
Speaker 1: like confidence in like being okay with not getting it yet.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I actually had a great teacher at Second City,
Speaker 1: Norm Holly and um, there you know, like the actors
Speaker 1: right the show and you would write something. So there's
Speaker 1: a lot like it feels like you're giving a piece
Speaker 1: of your heart to your director because it's not only
Speaker 1: a script that you've written, but that you're hoping to
Speaker 1: star and it means your stage time. It's like everything
Speaker 1: about the show is determined by your ability to like
Speaker 1: be a decent writer. And obviously, like sketches get cut
Speaker 1: all the time, and Norm, like very early on, taught
Speaker 1: us you'd be like, ideas are like toilet paper. Once
Speaker 1: they've been used, you flush them, like you you don't
Speaker 1: need to hold on to this particular idea that didn't
Speaker 1: make it into the show, or that did make it
Speaker 1: into the show, and now it's going to go that's
Speaker 1: not the only good idea you're ever gonna have. You're
Speaker 1: gonna have five hundred good ideas over the course of
Speaker 1: this process alone, and um, each idea is only good
Speaker 1: enough to like serve the moment it's in and then
Speaker 1: and then it doesn't need to go on any further
Speaker 1: than that, and you get told that and it doesn't
Speaker 1: feel real to you. And then like two years later,
Speaker 1: you sort of wake up and you're like, oh, he
Speaker 1: was right, but you have to like have had the
Speaker 1: experience of doing it so many times. I also have
Speaker 1: heard it talks about like building up a callous that
Speaker 1: like every time something is bad or gets rejected, it
Speaker 1: like it's like, um, when you first start playing guitar
Speaker 1: and your fingers are like tenter soft, but you keep
Speaker 1: doing it to like build up a callous there so
Speaker 1: that like your rejection callous is stick enough that someone
Speaker 1: says this is a good idea and you're like, all right, fine,
Speaker 1: onto the next idea. UM. I think that's easier to do.
Speaker 1: And like Sketch, where the script was five pages long,
Speaker 1: it's harder to write like a two page thing and
Speaker 1: be like, oh you don't like it, great, no problem,
Speaker 1: I'm cool. I'm cool. But there is like having trust
Speaker 1: in yourself that if this idea doesn't work for this
Speaker 1: person a that's not necessarily everyone, but also be you're
Speaker 1: going to have another good idea and you're going to
Speaker 1: be able to keep working. It's a nice way to
Speaker 1: think about it too, because sometimes like the other way
Speaker 1: of thinking about it is that we're so, how do
Speaker 1: you both, um care a lot care enough to you know,
Speaker 1: I feel like you're really honoring your ideas and then
Speaker 1: also not care enough so that if they don't happen,
Speaker 1: it's not like the end of the world. Yeah. Practically.
Speaker 1: One thing that I do is if I am pitching
Speaker 1: something or have like a big audition that's like very
Speaker 1: important to me. The second that I'm done with that thing,
Speaker 1: I start doing another thing. So like I'm pitching a
Speaker 1: shown now, and I'm writing a different script while i'm
Speaker 1: pitching it, so that like when I get told no,
Speaker 1: which I will about that thing, instead of going, oh no,
Speaker 1: my one precious opus has been rejected, it's like, oh
Speaker 1: that one got rejected. Well, back on track with this
Speaker 1: other thing that I'm working on. Do you take your
Speaker 1: own advice advice columnist? Um? A lot of the time.
Speaker 1: I also have a best friend who will it is
Speaker 1: very happy to be like, well you say, blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: how infuriating and fabulous. I love your advice. First of all,
Speaker 1: you have a podcast and you have do you still
Speaker 1: do the advice column on Dame or did that turn
Speaker 1: into the podcast they were together? I haven't done either
Speaker 1: of them in a little while. Yeah, Um, your advice
Speaker 1: is so good. I mean sometimes I read those sorts
Speaker 1: of things and I'm like, oh, I hope the person
Speaker 1: doesn't take that advice. But yours, I'm like, yeah, like
Speaker 1: you got to the you know, like there's this one.
Speaker 1: Actually to wrap it up with another another mom thing. Um,
Speaker 1: sorry for non moms in the audience. You gave advice
Speaker 1: to a lady who was who was putting herself last
Speaker 1: and like hated her kids as a result. And you said,
Speaker 1: I don't suggest that you focus on changing your feelings,
Speaker 1: which is blaming yourself. I suggest that you focus on
Speaker 1: building your life, which is taking care of yourself. Get
Speaker 1: a hobby, take a night off a week to do pilates,
Speaker 1: or that dumb thing where you drink and paint shitty pottery,
Speaker 1: go out with your girlfriends. By the way, none of
Speaker 1: this is useful for right now to quarantine, but I
Speaker 1: bet you could probably like tweak it if you were
Speaker 1: asked to. Um, you know that secret dream you had
Speaker 1: that no one knows about, start quietly working towards it.
Speaker 1: So I said that that she was putting herself last.
Speaker 1: That came from you. She didn't say that, right, she
Speaker 1: was just saying, like I hate my kids, and you
Speaker 1: were like, I see through you to what's happening. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's why I like giving advice. I mean I like
Speaker 1: giving advice because I'm a bossy person. Let's kind of thing.
Speaker 1: It's like one of those words I enjoyed telling people
Speaker 1: what to do. I would say, I would say, you're
Speaker 1: an empowering leader. I like bossy. I'm reclaiming it. Okay, good,
Speaker 1: okay good. I feel like women especially but people in general,
Speaker 1: have been so trained that it's bad to be self
Speaker 1: interested that it's often very clear what someone wants and
Speaker 1: the only person who doesn't know is them, because it
Speaker 1: feels dangerous to admit that you want an hour to
Speaker 1: yourself a week, or like I another word that I
Speaker 1: like to reclaim is ambitious. Like it's women are not
Speaker 1: supposed to be ambitious to the point where, like, like
Speaker 1: I was talking about go to jokes, Like one of
Speaker 1: the things that I'll say, knowing I'll get a laugh
Speaker 1: out of it is to be like, I'm very good
Speaker 1: at this. People will always laugh at that because women
Speaker 1: are not supposed to say it. And I think like
Speaker 1: a lot of times you can clearly see that a
Speaker 1: woman like wants something is ambitious or even just wants
Speaker 1: time to herself take care of herself, and she doesn't
Speaker 1: feel allowed to say it social say like five hundred
Speaker 1: other things, and you just have to be like it
Speaker 1: seems like the thing behind this is that your husband
Speaker 1: sucks or like whatever, yeah, whatever, or that you're not
Speaker 1: asking for what you need yeah, and so blaming everybody else. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I also, you know, I love I just love
Speaker 1: listening to people and finding out more about people, and
Speaker 1: I hate talking about the weather. And so I am
Speaker 1: one of those horrible people who someone will be like
Speaker 1: I'm fine and be like, how's your how's your relationship going?
Speaker 1: Because I just I don't want to have the I'm
Speaker 1: saying conversations. I would love to just dig in there
Speaker 1: and find out what's really Oh yeah, you know. There's
Speaker 1: one of the burn A Brown podcast episodes with Dr
Speaker 1: Mark Brackett, who wrote this book, called Permission to Feel.
Speaker 1: I feel it feels like a companion piece for Permission
Speaker 1: to Speak. Um. But his whole I mean, he has
Speaker 1: a lot of things I don't want to say his
Speaker 1: whole thing is quote unquote, but one of his things
Speaker 1: that really stayed with me is that, you know, we
Speaker 1: were all in this I'm fine culture because we've just
Speaker 1: been talk that no one wants to know what's real.
Speaker 1: But for those of us who actually do or who
Speaker 1: are like, I have the time right now if you
Speaker 1: want to actually tell me what's real. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: people have to be trained that there's space for that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think also the fear behind that, which is very valid,
Speaker 1: is like I don't want to ask this person for
Speaker 1: care or I don't know if they're like available to
Speaker 1: take care of me right now. But you can also
Speaker 1: be honest without expecting anything back from that person, which
Speaker 1: I think can be difficult to do. But it's okay
Speaker 1: to be like I'm having a bad day, Okay, on
Speaker 1: with the meeting, and not like make that person take
Speaker 1: care of you. Like I think people see like two
Speaker 1: opposite things, like either people are just like I'm fine,
Speaker 1: I'm fine, I'm fine, or people there are a lot
Speaker 1: of people who are very comfortable being like take care
Speaker 1: of me in this moment, and we were like we're
Speaker 1: in a business meeting, no, um. But there's a middle ground,
Speaker 1: which is just being like, oh, we're in a tough situation,
Speaker 1: like especially right now with COVID nineteen. Everyone's in a
Speaker 1: tough situation. It's okay to say like this is tough
Speaker 1: and then continue on with what we're doing. And you've
Speaker 1: been honest. You probably feel a little bit better for
Speaker 1: having been honest. But you're also not asking anyone to
Speaker 1: like stop what they're doing and care for you. I know,
Speaker 1: I know, not being a burden and also asking for
Speaker 1: what we need. Um. Yeah, we're gonna take another break
Speaker 1: and then we're gonna come back and find out who
Speaker 1: you've brought in for us to listen to. Okay, we
Speaker 1: are back, and UM, tell us who you've brought in
Speaker 1: to the surprise of No. One, Elizabeth Warren. Yeah, can
Speaker 1: we talk for a second about your relationship with Elizabeth,
Speaker 1: your public relationship with Elizabeth. Yes, Well, Um, when I
Speaker 1: saw it was like someone whose voice you admire, I
Speaker 1: didn't know if it meant their physical voice or they're
Speaker 1: like point of view, and I really like both of
Speaker 1: them for her, so that's why I chose her. Also,
Speaker 1: she is very funny, which I think we're we need
Speaker 1: more funny in our politics right now. Um. So I
Speaker 1: had tweeted, Um it was like in the primary and
Speaker 1: I was just scrolling through Twitter, and like every tweet
Speaker 1: seemed to be about like a different plan that Elizabeth
Speaker 1: Warren had put out, and they're all these like well
Speaker 1: thought out, comprehensively great plans, and so bringing us back,
Speaker 1: I know it's upsetting. As a joke, I tweeted like,
Speaker 1: do you think Eliza with Warren as a plan from
Speaker 1: my love life? Just like as a comment on how
Speaker 1: varied and comprehensive the plans were, And then she tweeted
Speaker 1: back like DM me and we'll talk about it. Was
Speaker 1: just like a great joke and I just loved that
Speaker 1: she was that funny, and I thought that would be
Speaker 1: the end of it. And then she actually DMed me
Speaker 1: and called me on the phone and wanted to help,
Speaker 1: and um, and did she help. She would have helped
Speaker 1: a more together person. Her advice was basically like, no,
Speaker 1: what you have going for you and like move from
Speaker 1: a place of you're an amazing person who anyone would
Speaker 1: be lucky to be with. And that is good advice
Speaker 1: that I'm not at yet. I will have access to
Speaker 1: that maybe in five years, I think always at the
Speaker 1: plan that's plan Yeah, Um, that's I mean, I hope
Speaker 1: I hope it comes before that. For the sake of
Speaker 1: your confidence, if not for the sake of your love life. UM.
Speaker 1: But also yeah, every aspect of that story is just
Speaker 1: so fucking unfairly charming. It's also like so her because
Speaker 1: even in that phone call, she was naming specific things
Speaker 1: that I had done, like pieces I had done in
Speaker 1: full frontal or like things that she thought would make
Speaker 1: me a good partner. And she is someone who, just
Speaker 1: like I think so deeply about everything that was like
Speaker 1: that would have um citations mom's love life. UM. On
Speaker 1: that note, I picked a little bit from one of
Speaker 1: her town halls. UM. I wanted to pick something that
Speaker 1: was not from an interview, but that was from you know,
Speaker 1: on a stage, because I think that's that's really that's
Speaker 1: the tough part. I mean, they're all tough, but in
Speaker 1: terms of public speaking, how we bring ourselves. Uh, we're
Speaker 1: gonna jump to it right now and listen to this
Speaker 1: little bit and try to live in the world in
Speaker 1: which this worked for America. I can remember how my
Speaker 1: mother used to tuck me into bed at night, and
Speaker 1: she give me a big smile, and then she'd walk
Speaker 1: out of the room and she closed the door, and
Speaker 1: I'd hear or start to cry because she never wanted
Speaker 1: to cry in front of me. These are the times
Speaker 1: that I learned words like mortgage and foreclosure. And I
Speaker 1: still remember walking into their bedroom one day and laid
Speaker 1: out on the bed was the dress. Now some of
Speaker 1: you know the dress. It's the one that only comes
Speaker 1: out for weddings, funerals, and graduations. And there was my
Speaker 1: mother down in the other part of the room in
Speaker 1: her slip and her style stockings, and she was walking
Speaker 1: back and forth, and she had her head down and
Speaker 1: she was saying, we will not lose this house. We
Speaker 1: will not lose this house. We will not lose this house.
Speaker 1: It's like so powerful in the specificity of her storytelling,
Speaker 1: like the specificity of her mom wearing the slip and
Speaker 1: being a person who has like one nice dress and
Speaker 1: all of the like little details that she gives us
Speaker 1: one it builds empathy within us because we have experienced that,
Speaker 1: like I picture my mom in her slip, you know,
Speaker 1: on a Sunday morning, and also tells us that she
Speaker 1: actually lived a life like the one that we're living.
Speaker 1: And that is become so rare in a politician on
Speaker 1: the national level that they know what it means to
Speaker 1: not be able to pay a bill, or to have
Speaker 1: one nice dress, or to cry because you don't know
Speaker 1: how you're going to take care of your children, and
Speaker 1: you don't necessarily have have to have experienced those things
Speaker 1: to be able to help people. But we've experienced so
Speaker 1: many politicians who haven't experienced those things, who aren't able
Speaker 1: to help us because their policy that they think is
Speaker 1: super helpful is going to end up only helping the
Speaker 1: people on the top because they don't know what life
Speaker 1: is like. I mean literally, they don't get our reference
Speaker 1: that we brought into the room. Yeah, and for someone
Speaker 1: to say with that much specificity, like I have been
Speaker 1: where you are, I have experienced it. It also like
Speaker 1: very much places her age and where she's from. She's
Speaker 1: telling you so much about herself, but in a way
Speaker 1: that tells you that she's like you. Um, and it's
Speaker 1: so effective. And now with the benefit of high insight,
Speaker 1: we know that it wasn't that people still, like a
Speaker 1: lot of people still chose not to vote for her.
Speaker 1: I mean it was, it was, and it wasn't you know,
Speaker 1: I think the electability issue or like I don't want
Speaker 1: to take some of the wrong lessons from her not
Speaker 1: winning because um, I think so many there's there's statistics
Speaker 1: that proved that so many people wanted to vote for
Speaker 1: her but were worried that quote unquote their neighbor wouldn't.
Speaker 1: And this sort of the attempt at at game theory
Speaker 1: NG it just fucked us all. And that's you know
Speaker 1: that that then not the same lesson as the she
Speaker 1: was a bad communicator lesson, Right, So we don't want
Speaker 1: to take one for the other. Well, it's also like
Speaker 1: on a very different scale, in a very different way
Speaker 1: what we're talking about earlier, where like gatekeepers say they
Speaker 1: won't like this, so I'm not going to put it on.
Speaker 1: That's it. That's it. It's like you don't know who
Speaker 1: they are. Like, just if you do what you think
Speaker 1: is best for the most people, you can probably be
Speaker 1: pretty effective. Like gaming out that other people might be
Speaker 1: worse than you. It's just allowing you to embrace your
Speaker 1: worst instinct in the service of people who you don't know.
Speaker 1: That's right. And if we aren't voting for people because
Speaker 1: we love them, we're voting for them because we think
Speaker 1: that the maybe least bad among the people that probably
Speaker 1: your neighbor will vote for. You know, we're just not
Speaker 1: actually being citizens, like in the way that democracy wants
Speaker 1: us to be, but also in terms of what we
Speaker 1: can learn from her on a technical level, because you know, um,
Speaker 1: despite her not having the day on Super Tuesday that
Speaker 1: a lot of us were hoping for, um, there are
Speaker 1: still just stunning lessons to learn from her public speaking style,
Speaker 1: and you were talking to a lot of them. The
Speaker 1: reason I picked that one one bit specifically, rather than
Speaker 1: her in a in a sort of question and answer
Speaker 1: a moment when she's a fucking brilliant yes. And her,
Speaker 1: by the way, is that she told that story so
Speaker 1: many times. She's told that story, you know, at every
Speaker 1: single town hall, and that was right near the end, uh,
Speaker 1: the one that I picked, which is South Carolina? And
Speaker 1: and what is it to tell the same story over
Speaker 1: and over one? You have to actually trust that your
Speaker 1: story is worth telling. So that's like the that's early
Speaker 1: on right from for a lot of women. Surely some
Speaker 1: men as well, but but stereotypically for a lot of women,
Speaker 1: we skip the part where we tell an actual story
Speaker 1: about her actual life. And I found it on this podcast.
Speaker 1: I mean getting people to actually say, you know, not
Speaker 1: just like this is a thing that happens to people.
Speaker 1: But I remember this one time that you know, we
Speaker 1: there's just this little voice in us that goes and
Speaker 1: no one wants to hear about that, but we're just
Speaker 1: desperate for it. And when she says, like, here's the
Speaker 1: thing that actually happened, let me take you there, We're like, yes,
Speaker 1: we're storytelling creatures. We were there with you, were in
Speaker 1: the room, you know. Um. And how much she was
Speaker 1: able to embody it each time, even though it was repetitive,
Speaker 1: you know, even though she'd done it before. And what
Speaker 1: that is to just like actually sort of trust that
Speaker 1: you can go there to that place in your mind
Speaker 1: and then tell the story with sometimes different words, sometimes
Speaker 1: the same words, and and really that you're just there
Speaker 1: to the other part of it, connected to the to
Speaker 1: the audience. That she knows she's doing that empathy building thing,
Speaker 1: and she knows that she's connecting it to these big
Speaker 1: ideas that tend to turn people off, you know, mortgage
Speaker 1: and foreclosure um, just breaks people's brains. Um. And and
Speaker 1: yet she's connecting she's I had I had a teacher
Speaker 1: once say looping it through the heart. I think about
Speaker 1: that a lot with her, right, like, we can say
Speaker 1: things out of our mouth, or we can take that
Speaker 1: moment where they sort of loop through our heart and
Speaker 1: then come out of our mouth. And you know, part
Speaker 1: of what a lot of us love about what uh
Speaker 1: what a what a real like icon of female leadership
Speaker 1: she is is that she's not afraid to be emotional
Speaker 1: like that for a purpose. Not just emotional because she's
Speaker 1: unprocessed on something, but emotional because she's saying, I'm bringing
Speaker 1: this in because it's real and because it's huge and
Speaker 1: it's a problem and we're all dealing with it, and
Speaker 1: I'm not not gonna, like try to be more formal
Speaker 1: than the story requires. It's also that she speeches that
Speaker 1: you say over and over again can start to feel
Speaker 1: canned because you've said it so many times, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't because she's fully isn't in that moment, And having
Speaker 1: met her, she seems to be fully present in every moment.
Speaker 1: Like when I met her, there was like a group
Speaker 1: of activists who were there to challenge her on something,
Speaker 1: and she was so present with them and listening and
Speaker 1: asking questions. And it takes a certain amount of confidence
Speaker 1: to just be in the moment. It's much easier to
Speaker 1: have those prepared answers that your staff gave you that
Speaker 1: you know have been focus tested and are the best answers.
Speaker 1: That's easy to do. It's much harder to sit in
Speaker 1: the uncomfortable moment of not knowing what that person is
Speaker 1: going to say to you, not knowing how to respond,
Speaker 1: and if that person says something that's challenging to you,
Speaker 1: not rushing them off, but sitting in it and saying,
Speaker 1: let me understand what you're saying and where you're coming from,
Speaker 1: or speaking to a group of this size, and not
Speaker 1: just reciting a speech and hitting all your laugh lines,
Speaker 1: but saying, let me be present with you in this
Speaker 1: moment and tell you how this felt to me, and
Speaker 1: allow you to see me in that way, and hopefully
Speaker 1: you will respond in kind, which I find that often
Speaker 1: people do. You will stop that running voice in your
Speaker 1: head and be present with me because of my example,
Speaker 1: and we'll be able to actually have this moment of
Speaker 1: communication together. Yeah. I know I want to talk to
Speaker 1: her about that as well. I want to know if
Speaker 1: she has this that same Ashley moment that you're talking
Speaker 1: about earlier, of like being my real self right now
Speaker 1: scares me doing it, Ashley. Thank you. Thank you for this.
Speaker 1: Um that you dropped some serious advice without even necessarily
Speaker 1: a being framed that way, you know, but I really
Speaker 1: appreciate you being on. Thank you for this. Thanks so
Speaker 1: much for having me. I got to talk to another
Speaker 1: human being, which is rare enough these days. I got
Speaker 1: to see a baby. It's a really good day. Thank
Speaker 1: you to Ashley for joining us. You can find out
Speaker 1: more about her in the show notes or on our
Speaker 1: website Permission to Speak pod dot com. I am doing
Speaker 1: Instagram lives these days every Thursday at ten am Pacific,
Speaker 1: so please feel free to pop in. I talk about
Speaker 1: takeaways from this week's episode and interact with listeners, which
Speaker 1: is obviously a dream come true. So please show up
Speaker 1: there and or send me dms at Permission to Speak
Speaker 1: pot on Instagram. You can also submit through the website
Speaker 1: and UM then let me know what's going on with you.
Speaker 1: Who do you want to have uh ME interview? Are
Speaker 1: their big old holes in the conversation that need to
Speaker 1: get filled? UM? I'd love to hear from you, guys.
Speaker 1: Thank you to Sophie Lichtman and the team at I
Speaker 1: Heeart Radio and all of you. We're recording this podcast
Speaker 1: at various locations around Los Angeles on land that is
Speaker 1: the historic gathering place for the Tongva indigenous tribe, and
Speaker 1: you can visit U S d A C dot us
Speaker 1: to learn more about honoring Native land. Permission to Speak
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Double Vision,
Speaker 1: executive produced by Katherine Burke Can't and Mark Canton. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts from I heart Radio, listen on the i
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
Speaker 1: favorite shows.