WEBVTT - How to Be Yourself with Ashley Nicole Black 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.120 Today's quote is from A. A. Milne, who wrote Winnie 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:09.799 the Pooh. Because Vito life is hard, guys, it is 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.400 more fun to talk with someone who doesn't use long, 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:19.759 difficult words, but rather short, easy words like what about lunch? 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:32.280 Welcome to Permission to Speak. The podcast about how we 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:36.760 talk and how we get ourselves heard with me samarrow Bay. 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:45.400 Today's guest is Ashley Nicole Black. She is known for 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.680 writing on Full Frontal with Samantha b and also conducting 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.080 some stunning interviews on air. We're gonna link to her 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.160 Stacy Abrams special, which is brilliant and stands the test 0:00:56.160 --> 0:01:00.240 of time. She's also one of the head right ters 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:02.640 and actors on HBO as a Black Lady's Sketch Show. 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:07.679 And if you follow her, you know her twitter feed. Yes, 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.800 she is the one who tweeted out about um Elizabeth 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.240 Warren asking if she had plans for her love life 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:17.640 and uh Luz responded and we talked about what happened 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:20.760 after that in this conversation. I wanted to have Ashley 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:25.119 on because I mean, she's a total comedic genius and 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:29.520 she channels her voice on the page on screen, into 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:33.560 advice columns, into her own podcast, which is temporarily on hold, 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:36.440 but it's awesome and has an amazing backlog. It's called 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:41.960 SIP on This with Ashley Nicole Black, and in our conversation, 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:46.760 I I really appreciated her take on improv and how 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:52.040 it teaches us to be better everything's and her absolutely 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:58.720 unique experience. I would say, uh, leaving a PhD program 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:03.640 where she was focused on contemporary minstrelsy to join Second 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:06.760 City in Chicago and do improv and sketch, which led 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.760 her to Hollywood. It's amazing. I should also say we 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:13.920 recorded this very early on in the pandemic, when I 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.120 had just figured out my home studio and had, as 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.760 it turned out, not quite figured out my WiFi. And 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:24.720 that's my caveat on our our timing being a little off. 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:27.960 I think she couldn't understand everything I was saying and 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.520 was being very gracious about it. But don't worry, I've 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.480 since fixed the problem. But we held this one back 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:36.360 in our archives for a little bit and I decided, 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:39.000 you know what, look to share it because she is 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:49.920 a wonder. This is Ashley Nicole Black. I read this 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:52.240 amazing quote of yours. You said I was a really 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.799 shy and weird kid. So I think that my parents 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:57.840 are happy I have the ability to talk to people 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.480 at all. My mom used to literally, you forced me 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:02.480 to go outside and I used to prop my book 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.440 up on the handlebars of my bike and ride in 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:10.000 a circle. Yes, I did. And I don't think my 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.679 parents think that I know it, because they told me. 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.400 They were like, we're so happy it worked out because 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:17.959 you were so weird and we just wondered if you 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.840 were going to be okay. I mean for all of 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.720 us waiting here, Um, how do you like? What do 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:26.520 you when you think of her and you think of 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:29.239 you now? Do you have trouble like squaring who those 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:30.960 two people are or does it seem like it's a 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:35.320 completely linear progression from that girl with the handlebars? Um, 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.600 it is a completely linear progression. I think when I 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.320 was a kid, I was like a really smart kid, 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:46.800 like hi, I q low eq. I didn't like understand 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.400 what was happening with people. So I would like often 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:51.760 be like thinking really hard about something and then just 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.440 start a conversation in the middle of that thought process. 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:56.720 And my parents had to teach me like you gotta 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.200 say hello to people and where they are and then 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:02.880 start the beginning of the conversation to bring them along 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:06.640 with you. It wasn't like a natural thing for me, 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.280 but I was like, did you actually try that? I mean, 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.480 do you remember really actively being like, let me try 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.200 doing that thing. My parents told me it works well, absolutely, 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.760 and they are great communicators, like my dad's a minister, um, 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:22.880 and so like being a good communicator, it was like 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:25.440 an important thing in our household. It was like a job. 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.719 It was something you've learned to do. Um. And I 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:31.159 was also like a super curious kid, and like my 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.440 parents didn't believe in like giving children answers to questions, 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.479 like if you wanted to know how something worked, you 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.839 could pull out the dictionary or like eventually, um, you 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:46.120 could ask jeeves and uh find out about it. And 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.159 so it was like it was so interesting in finding 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:49.919 out about things that I had to learn how to 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.920 like communicate those things to people. Mm. Yeah. That makes 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:55.600 me think of when I was like when I've been 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:57.520 a teacher or a coach and people are asking me 0:04:57.520 --> 0:04:59.240 things that I don't actually think are that relevant to 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.480 the act coaching, like why is it that this accent 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.000 sounds like this? And I'm always like, great questions to 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.160 let me know. It's such a relief to be able 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:10.080 to just be like the person who has the thought 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.880 has to solve it for themselves. Yeah, okay, so that 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:16.159 was so it worked in a way because now I 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.440 feel like you're a great not only are you a 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:22.960 great communicator, but you've actually used that particular skill. I mean, 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.920 I'm thinking specifically of like when you're on Samantha b 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.520 And and question asking and being really present with people 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:34.039 was like the job. Yeah, I think like I started 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.440 doing improv um because I thought it was fun and 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:41.320 I enjoyed performing um. But the thing of improv is 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:45.320 like listening very deeply to people and like responding to 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.640 them from a place of yes um. And so then 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.039 when I got that job, it's not really a job 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:54.320 that you can train for because like before it started 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.360 with like just the Daily Show. Now there are more 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:58.880 shows that do that, but you would there wouldn't be 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:00.960 like a college class on how to be a fake 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.240 news correspondent because there was like one show that was 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.320 doing that. So once when I started doing it, I 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.160 was like, oh, I don't know if I know how 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.279 to do this. And I was really lucky to get 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.280 to observe Sam, who is the absolute best at it, 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.279 and I sort of like the thing that she does 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:21.880 so well. She's such a like open empathetic person that 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:26.000 people immediately feel very comfortable with her to the point 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.440 where she can do I've seen her do the most 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:30.960 wild things in front of people and they're just so 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:32.880 in love with her that they just sit there while 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.680 she like does a whole comedy routine and they're just like, 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.560 I trust this lady, I'm sure this is going somewhere. Um. 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.320 So I was never like quite that good at it, 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.840 but at the formula that worked for me, I was like, Oh, 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:48.280 it's like doing improv with someone who doesn't know how 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:50.599 to do it and doesn't know that they are doing it, 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.560 and so you're just like saying yes to whatever it 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.159 is they're doing. And sometimes you physically have to like 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.720 hold people on camera like you you wouldn't be able 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.840 to tell, but behind their I'm like physically holding them 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:04.200 from running away because some people's impulse when they see 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:06.760 a cameras to retreat and you're like, so you're like 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:10.040 trying to listen to them and remember all the things 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.160 that you need to talk about and like stay on topic. 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:14.080 And get what you need for the piece, but also 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:20.320 somehow physically radiate like trust and confidence and physically keep 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:24.360 them in fraight. How do you besides the physical part 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:26.520 with your hand, how do you like what do you 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.400 what is the actual technically speaking, how do you do 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.760 that radiating? Like do just think that thought and then 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.640 just and then just run with it? Um? I try 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.000 to just like tell people they're doing a good job 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.400 and like you're okay. This is because like a lot 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.320 of times people think they are supposed to be funny 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.360 and like they're not. Like, all you need to do 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:48.920 in this moment is be honest and tell me your 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:55.200 real opinions and um, sort of reassuring people that like 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.360 that's enough that you don't need to entertain me or 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.880 the idea of the audience. Like literally, if you just 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.440 tell me the truth, you will have done the perfect thing. Yeah, 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:08.600 that's amazing. It also makes me wonder, like, um, can 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.480 you tell us about I want to get into everything 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.840 with your PhD program and your and your leaving of 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:19.120 the PhD program for improv you you you like left 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.760 the old lover for the new lover. Um but but um, 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:24.680 but actually, yeah, let me just start there. So I 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:26.720 want to get back to talking about improv. But first, 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:29.080 what was Will you set the scene of what was 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:35.600 happening for you academically when you discovered sketch and comedy. Um. Yes, 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:41.520 so I went to grad school like half because I 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:45.400 was good at that kind of work, like I enjoy theory, 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.880 I enjoy writing, I enjoy like solving and figuring out 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.320 a problem. Um. But also half because the thing I 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.319 really wanted to do, which was be an actor, didn't 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.400 seem accessible to me. I also, by the way I 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:01.600 read that you were talking about in college, like never 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.800 getting cast as the lead, um, which I really which 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.880 really resonates with me. I always and I think this 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.640 is still true, but certainly wasn't that time. I always 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:15.240 was like whatever the smallest character, they could still be 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.959 considered a lead character. Was like, I wasn't garbage. I 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.360 was trying myself as like a B plus actor, Like 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:22.920 I it's not bad. I just was never going to 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.560 be the lead, and in retrospect was often playing like 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.840 the comic relief character. But wasn't like president enough to 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:30.480 realize that I was funny. I was just like, oh, 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:32.600 I'm not pretty. I don't get to be the girl who, 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.120 like someone falls in love with, but also a lot 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.520 of times that character is quite boring and there's more 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.520 fun funny yes, character off to the side, Yes, which 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:43.280 is the same. I remember I got an I got 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.040 an m f A in acting. And so there was like, 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:46.640 you know, eight girls at guys in my class, and 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.040 the very the third year they had, um somebody like 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.360 it was so theater based, and then suddenly they had 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.360 somebody from Hollywood pop in and be like, so, here 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.560 are your types. Yes, and he went through and literally 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:01.400 every single person in my class was you're the lead, 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.560 You're the best friend, You're the lead, you're the best friend. 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:08.280 I was the one who they said was the character actor. Yeah. 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:09.640 And I was like, oh my god, this makes so 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.240 much sense of why I've always felt like the weird 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.280 outsider in my grad school class, and also why no 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.560 one knows what to do with me except just put 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.520 me in the funny role and like, let her solve 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:25.280 that thing. One of those where um, there's like a 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.440 list of the types of characters you would play, and 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:31.840 everyone's like a cop and FBI agent, lawyer, you know whatever, 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:38.040 and mine were all like a nurse assistant, district attorney, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.600 a beat cop. It was an assistant version of every job. 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:47.480 I mean, so you were like, let me actually talk 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:53.320 about the theory of minstrulsy because this acting thing might 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.960 not be for me. Um. I mean, I'm it's a joke, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:57.840 but it's also not a joke because I was so 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.960 my my my jaw dropped when I read what you 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.760 had were actually, you know, going for your PhD for 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.120 the subject matter. Yeah, And I'd love to tell people 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.720 about it because blackface minstrelsy is the first American art form. 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:15.880 It's the first art that Americans created. Uh. And there's 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.040 still so many like things that we think of is 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:24.600 like classic comedy bits and tropes that originated from minstrelsy. Um. 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:26.840 And so it was a really interesting thing to study. 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:29.360 And I've heard you even say that like like like sitcom, 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.440 like what we think of as sitcom, but UMPA has 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.040 its roots. Yeah. And so it's like now, being a 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.720 person who makes television, I'm really glad that I had 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.520 that background. Um. But at the time I was just 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:48.040 like in academia and was again like sort of good 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:52.000 at it, but I wasn't enjoying it. And the people 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:54.480 that want to be in that world. We're just not 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:59.720 my people. I really really enjoyed teaching and working with students, 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:04.080 and I was able to teach like when you're teaching performance, 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:05.760 like a lot of students think they're going to be 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.280 an actor or something, and a lot of them are 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.640 just not based on the numbers. But what was more 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:12.920 important to me was like I was able to get 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:15.800 students to like stand up straighter and be more confident 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.479 in their bodies and like use their voices to their fullness. 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.480 Nothing makes me want to dig into a human more 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.280 than a woman who only uses the top half of 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.360 her voice and I know there's more voice, and it 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.800 like if I meet her in a bar, I'm like, well, 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.320 we're gonna like I would love to get in there 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:37.559 and just just find the bottom of that register. Just 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.840 people have their whole voice. I mean absolutely, obviously I'm 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.680 in your club if you'll have UM. I also feel 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:49.840 like that the vocal equipment, the language equivalent of that 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.400 is people who say I'm fine. I mean obviously, like 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.280 sometimes we're just like we don't need to engage whatever, 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.600 but I'm fine voice that really sounds like somebody's trying 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.079 to convince you. But they're convinced you with like a 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.880 quarter of their range. I'm fine, Yeah, it's fine, and 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.080 I'm like, right, Actually, while we're here, tell us more 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.560 about teaching. Do you remember anyone specifically that you helped. 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:12.360 I went straight from undergrad to grad school, so I 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:15.760 was like the same age as or a year older 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:20.560 than my students, which was very strange. I didn't always 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.960 feel very effective, but I remember we did like a 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:29.360 class performance, and um, this student's parents came up to 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:33.160 me after the performance and we're like, what did you do? 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.720 Just like complete shot and I didn't even understand what 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.360 was happening. And I thought, like, we're their dirty words 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.120 in the show that they weren't, and they were like, 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:46.040 he never heard him say more than like five words 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.800 in a row. He's so shy, and he just stood 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.040 up there and gave like a whole performance. What did 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.400 you do to him? And I was like, I don't know, 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.120 but it feels so good to know that you've given 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:02.040 someone permission, yeah, mission, and like the space to access 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.199 a part of themselves that obviously they already had, but 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.679 maybe they just were never in a space where someone said, 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.800 like I want to see this part of you yeah, 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.839 I mean so much of this work is about um. 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:15.800 I mean I said, you know he held permission because 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.000 the it's the word that's in my title. But you know, 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.480 the reality is part of giving somebody permission. It's not 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.920 just like you know, finger wagging and saying you have permission. 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:28.240 It's about like saying, you might have felt like you 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:30.920 were in spaces that were too scary to handle you. You 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.720 You might have been right, but it also might have 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:37.080 become a habit. Yeah, so what if we put you 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:39.360 in a really safe space and and figure out who's 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:41.960 in there that hasn't felt safe to come out? Yeah, 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:44.720 and it has to be truly safe. I think sometimes 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.080 the word safe space has become like a buzzword and 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:48.720 people say like, oh, we want this job to be 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.080 a safe space, but it isn't. And like truly creating 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.440 a space where it's like there's no wrong answer here. 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.880 And I taught comedy writing, so I had students right 0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:59.720 scenes that offended me, like as a woman, as a 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:01.800 person of color, and it's like, but this is a 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.600 safe space, and so we're going to talk about this 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.960 scene on its merits and no one's judging you for 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:10.840 having written it. The audience probably doesn't want to see it, 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:14.200 and let's talk about that. But like this is off 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.080 because also like how is that safe for you? Then? 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.920 You know, I mean it isn't always. But the good 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:24.920 thing is like when you are being um offensive in 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.400 a racial way or a gender way, you're also often 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:29.920 doing bad comedy. So as a teacher, it's very easy 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:32.080 to be like, here's why this is bad comedy, and 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.120 that's what I'm here to teach you. I've distracted because 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:37.640 my dog is sleeping and she's doing really cute little 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:42.760 barks in her sleep. What's happening? Do you think she's 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.880 talking to somebody some dreams. She's probably being real tough 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.080 in her dream. I think, are you walking her? And 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.240 like is she getting interaction or how is how is quarantine? 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:55.480 She's really missing the interaction because she's like a very cute, 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.960 little chunky dog and so normally when we walk, like 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.800 strangers want to stop and pet her. And I think 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.360 she sort of went through a crisis of like nobody's 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:05.480 stopping to pet me and might not cute me. More 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:13.320 like what's going on? I mean, she's all of us. Um, 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:17.400 So when you were teaching, you had already found second 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.520 city and you were already doing improvince catch. Yeah, I 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:24.880 started um studying at the second city while so I 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.320 did my masters and then I did my PhD. So 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.920 I was I started um studying a second city. I 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.400 think like at the same time I started my PhD. 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:39.080 UM So I was truly like going to school during 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.440 the day and teaching and then like doing comedy at 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:47.080 night and like coming in hungover to teach. It was 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:50.320 like a very weird totally. And what were you thinking 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.160 in terms of I mean, were you thinking as sort 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:55.480 of obviously as it is now that you were like 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:59.600 both studying performance and then also doing it and sort 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.600 of had like the theory and practice being like jammed 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.800 up against each other. I was, but weirdly, like the 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.000 school was not interested in that. They're like, oh, yeah, 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:14.359 this thing. Like when you hear performance studies, one of 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.920 the tenants of performance studies is that everything is performance 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.480 gender as a performance. And so in that vein, you 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:24.879 would think if you're doing drag or improv or comedy 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.119 or whatever, those would all be equally as interesting areas 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:33.920 of of practice and study. But actually they're they're interested 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:38.200 in like um important performance, like performance are and stuff 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.680 like that. So doing improv was just like, we don't 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.919 know why you're doing this, and it's not helping you 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.560 to be doing this, and um, it was so much 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:50.360 more fun and fulfilling. Was just like, well, I guess 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:54.720 I'm gonna go do that academia van yeah, and where 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.240 big thoughts happen and then they're sort of locked away 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.520 for only people who can access them. Um, And then 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.320 I would come to realize that I was doing sketch comedy, 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:06.840 like oh, I could do a sketch about the same idea, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.600 and obviously it's like a very different form and can 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.960 be much less nuanced, But three hundred people are in 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:17.280 the audience tonight who can immediately access this thought, as 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:19.480 opposed to like, oh, I wrote a book and it 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.040 took like years to get it published, and I forced 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.800 my students to buy it. The students who can afford 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.760 this very expensive, rarefied education will be forced to buy 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.159 this book and maybe they'll read it, and maybe they 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.800 won't write right. I have a question from a friend 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.280 that is along these lines. She wrote to me and 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:39.560 wanted me to ask you, how do you maintain the 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.240 balance between being ironic or funny and being taken seriously 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.680 when you address thoughtful and complicated or complex topics like 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.800 where and how as a creative do you draw the line? 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.480 And then she also wrote, um, we love you women, 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:58.240 and thank you. That's very kind. Um, I sort of 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:03.199 it's a really interesting question. I don't always expect to 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.960 be taken seriously. Um. Just like as a young woman 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.280 of color in this business, I sort of know that 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.200 when I start to engage, I'm starting from a place 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.359 of not being taken seriously. And rather than like be 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.560 angry about that, I just enjoy the playing with that, 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:26.200 and like there's I really enjoy the moment it happens 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:31.040 in interviews and meetings in like from an audience member, 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.119 the moment where someone sits forward and they're like, oh, ship, 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.280 she's good at this is like my favorite and I 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.360 like to wait for it and clock it and see 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:40.960 how long it took me to get there. So rather 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:42.880 than like be mad that I don't get to start 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:44.719 with that and the way that some people do, I 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.600 just enjoy watching that person be forced to like give 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:54.119 me that moment eventually. Um. So I don't I don't 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.439 feel like a pressure about being taken seriously. I do 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.399 feel a pressure about being understood because one of the 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.160 things with comedy is like you could write something that's 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.760 super funny, but if it's about a topic that serious 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:10.879 are important, and people are unclear whether or not you 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.040 take it seriously, then they can, you know, rightfully get 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:18.320 very upset or not rightfully but pretend to get upset 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:20.280 because it's fun to like be mean to people on 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.360 the internet. And so I think, like less than being 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.840 taken seriously, it's like really important to me to be 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:29.840 understood and to be clear. And the times when I 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.360 have gotten in trouble, I can look back and say, like, oh, 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:34.760 you know what, maybe that statement wasn't a hundred percent 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:37.920 clear and there is room for interpretation here um, and 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:42.920 try to limit that. The other part of the question, 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.879 I think, which is which is feels really relevant for 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:47.320 me and for for a lot of us who are 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.919 trying to live in this space where where approaching a 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:53.560 lot of the absurdity of life with the absurdity it deserves, 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:55.920 but also with the gravitas that it deserves. If it's 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:58.560 like hurting people's you know, if this is if it's 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.879 heavy is um, it's like how do you figure out 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.200 how to be funny about things that are serious, because 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:10.680 that is something that you actually are an expert on. Um. Weirdly, 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.399 like as I said, I was not. I had to 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.600 learn to be a better communicator and as a kid, 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.480 like the times where I was most angry or most sad, 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:21.960 a lot of times people would laugh, Like just my 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:26.800 natural expression of my feelings causes laughter. Um, so I 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.480 found a way to make money off of it. Um. 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:31.359 But I think, like, so what you're saying is you 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.320 just talk seriously about serious things and people had people 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:36.600 fill in their own ships. I mean sometimes you do, 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.760 like there are certain jokes structures that you know we're 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:41.520 gonna work, and like if you can put something into 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:43.480 one of those structures, what does that mean? Wait, will 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:45.320 you tell me what you mean by a joke structure? 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:47.960 Just like when you've been doing it for a while, 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:51.720 Like there are just certain jokes that like work, and 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:53.760 you're like, oh, if I can figure out how to 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:57.000