1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for being here. We have largely 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 1: an energy group today. We're looking to be very energy dominant. 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 2: Unleash energy dominance. 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 3: This is unleashed the National Energy Dominance Council. 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 4: We are unleashing energy dominance, and. 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: You're going to see this is basically energy dominance, and 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: it's going to be environmentally clean, environmentally wonderful, and we're 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: going to make more money than anybody's ever made with energy. 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: We have more energy than anybody else. I call it 10 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: liquid gold under our feet. 11 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 5: Energy dominance. That is the Trump Administration's catchphrase when it 12 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 5: comes to America's new energy policy, or should we see 13 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 5: old energy policy? Always energy policy. In February of twenty 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 5: twenty five, Trump established the National Council on Energy Dominance, 15 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 5: whose aim is basically more oil, natural gas, and coal, 16 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 5: with a smattering of geothermal and nuclear thrown into me 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 5: AI demand. He's promising cheaper prices at the pump for 18 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 5: consumers and no more of that pesky wind and solar. 19 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 6: You just heard the voices of President Trump, his Press 20 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 6: Secretary Carolyn Levitt, Secretary of the Interior Doug Burgham, and 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 6: EPA administrator Leez Eldon All repeating that same line energy, energy, 22 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 6: energy dominance, like it's a magic spell. But what does 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 6: energy dominance actually mean? Who or what is the Trump 24 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 6: administration trying to dominate with it? Is it the energy itself? 25 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 6: Those molecules of freedom as the Trump administration was calling 26 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 6: it back in twenty nineteen, But they're trying to dominate. 27 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 5: American presidents, both Republican and Democrat, have always said America 28 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 5: needs more energy. Also, why are they always. 29 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 7: Unleashing it. 30 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 6: Totally? In his first term, you may remember Barry President 31 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 6: Braco was pitching the idea of energy independence, which was 32 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 6: basically covered to justify lifting the export ban for the 33 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 6: fracking guys. 34 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 8: Hello, everybody, I'm speaking to you today from a UPS 35 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 8: customer center in Landover, Maryland, where I came to talk 36 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 8: about an issue that's affecting families and businesses just like 37 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 8: this one, the rising price of gas and what we 38 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 8: can do as a country to reduce our dependence on 39 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 8: foreign ore. This week, I released a blueprint for a 40 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 8: secure energy future. Part of the strategy involves increasing our 41 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 8: oil exploration right here in America. 42 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 5: And of course becoming a net exporter. Did the opposite 43 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 5: of making the US energy independent, Instead it hogtied US 44 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 5: to an energy commodity market that's been jerking prices around 45 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 5: ever since. And despite all the industry's talk of Biden's 46 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 5: environmental policy getting in the way of its growth, the 47 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 5: US actually became the world's top oil and gas producer 48 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 5: and exporter under Biden. 49 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 9: Let's debunk some miss here. My administration has not stopped 50 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 9: or slowed US oil production. Quite the opposite. We're producing 51 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 9: twelve million barrels of oil per day, and by the 52 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 9: end of this year, we will be producing one million 53 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 9: barrels a day, more than the day in which I 54 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 9: took office. In fact, we're on track for record oil 55 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 9: production in twenty twenty three, and today the United States 56 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 9: is the largest producer of oil and petroleum products in 57 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 9: the world. 58 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 6: So Obama and Biden basically had an all of the 59 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 6: above energy strategy, boosting fossil fuel production along with solar, 60 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 6: wind and other renewables, while Trump is really only interested 61 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 6: in liquid gold. 62 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, Trump loves gold so much and he hates building renewables, 63 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 5: even in places like Texas where they secretly make a 64 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 5: bunch of Republicans a lot of money. He is, as 65 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 5: we tape, actively trying to kill the clean energy industry 66 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 5: a free markets. 67 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 6: But I do think the crucial difference beyond just the 68 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 6: policy is also the way Trump and his cronies think 69 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 6: about energy and the way they talk about it. They 70 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 6: keep hitting on that word dominance, and that's the keyword here. 71 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 6: The Dems wanted market dominance for American energy, and they 72 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 6: were fine getting there with wind or solar, but with 73 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 6: Trump and MAGA, it's more than that. Whether or not 74 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 6: they believe in climate change is almost beside the point. 75 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 6: It's the idea that fossil fuels are at the center 76 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 6: of the global economy and that power comes from controlling them. 77 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 6: It's not about independence or security. It's about power, and 78 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 6: not just on a geopolitical level of being able to 79 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 6: bully other countries, but almost like on an individual one. 80 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 5: It reminds me of that line from Doom. 81 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 6: Yes, he who controls the spice, it drove the universe spice. 82 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 6: And it's that word dominance, not spice, that we want 83 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 6: to talk about in this episode of Carbon Brows, because 84 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 6: the idea of trying to dominate through taking possession of 85 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 6: natural resources goes back a lot further than Trump or 86 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 6: even the fight over climate change. 87 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 5: It's the story of how masculinity and extraction got linked 88 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 5: in our collective imaginations, how we went from thinking of 89 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 5: the earth of a living organism or mother even to 90 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 5: something we can plunder and destroy and profit from as 91 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 5: we as men see fit, And how the fight over 92 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 5: climate change became bound up with the backlash against feminism, 93 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 5: transgender rights, and the rights of anyone or anything that 94 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 5: challenges the supremacy of men. 95 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 6: Welcome back to Carbon Bros. 96 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 5: I'm Daniel Penny and I'm Amy Westervelt. 97 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 6: On today's episode, Good Energy Dominance. 98 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 5: There are a lot of ways we could start this 99 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 5: episode about the masculine urge to dominate nature. 100 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 6: And it should be said right from the top that 101 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 6: dominance and aggression are not innately masculine traits, nor do 102 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 6: all men exhibit them hashtag not all men. But for 103 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 6: the purposes of this combo, we're talking about hegemonic masculinity 104 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 6: or toxic masculinity, the type that Trump, MAGA and the 105 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 6: global far right view as the only proper way to 106 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 6: be a man. Last year, I spoke with doctor Terry 107 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 6: Cooper's who's one of the leading academic researchers that helped 108 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 6: popularize the term toxic masculinity. 109 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 4: Toxic masculinity is not synonymous with masculinity. We have to 110 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 4: be clear about what we're talking about. There are multiple masculinities. 111 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 4: There's a hegemonic masculinity which is being contested right now. 112 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 6: What is hegemonic masculinity and what distinguishes that from toxic masculinity. 113 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 4: There's a dominance hierarchy, and within that framework we can 114 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 4: look at characteristics what we call in psychology traits like 115 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 4: hyper competitiveness, like brutality towards those lower on the dominance hierarchy. 116 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 4: Those things I believe are socially evil, They're not appropriate 117 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 4: aims to strive for, and a group of those things 118 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 4: I lump under toxic masculinity. At different points of time, 119 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 4: different forms of masculinity emerge and become more or less powerful, 120 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 4: dominant hedgebonic masculinity looks at that historical development with the 121 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 4: question what kind of masculinity is dominant now or hegemonic? 122 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 4: For instance, I believe in the United States we're having 123 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 4: a cultural war about that. We have a president who 124 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 4: explicitly advocates sexism, misogyny, homophobia, islamophobia, etc. All of which 125 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 4: you're part of toxic masculinity. 126 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 5: So to recap, just like there are many ways to 127 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 5: be a woman based on cultural and historical context, masculinity 128 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 5: is not all one thing, and it does not have 129 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 5: to be agro, but hegemonic masculinity that's the kind of 130 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 5: images and behaviors and social scripts we encounter every day 131 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 5: does equate manliness with dominance. 132 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 6: And this is important when we think about how these 133 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 6: macho men treat the natural world. 134 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 5: To understand how dominating nature got all tied up with masculinity, 135 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 5: we have to talk about how ideas about nature became 136 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 5: gendered in the first place. And for about as long 137 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 5: as we have documentation of humans, there is this idea 138 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 5: of Earth as a womb, as a maternal figure nurturing humans. 139 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 5: It spans back for centuries across cultures and religions from 140 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 5: Pacha Mama amongst the indigenous peoples of Peru. 141 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 6: And of course the Greeks had Gaya and the Romans 142 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 6: had Tera mater mother Earth. This familiar relationship between humans 143 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 6: and the rest of the national world goes back to 144 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 6: way before hippies were making bumper stickers about it, and 145 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 6: it's remained a recurring theme in pop culture. I was 146 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 6: actually just watching this clip that I found from a 147 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 6: nineteen ninety Earth Day TV special with a lot of 148 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 6: celebrities in it, including Robin Williams and Bette Midler playing 149 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 6: Mother Earth. What are you worried about? 150 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 3: Everyone's saying Mother Nature? 151 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 8: Mother Earth? 152 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 10: People said, we gotta respect Mother. 153 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 11: Earth what we do. But she loves us. 154 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 3: She's always there for us, isn't she. She's always got. 155 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 7: One more tree upper sleeve, doesn't she. 156 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 3: And she's the type of mom who could never say no. 157 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 12: Stop praise He's I can't marry her another word. 158 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 4: It's second. 159 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 3: Enough of this drivel. 160 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 13: What is this? 161 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 3: Marny grown may see Thanksgiving day break? 162 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 10: Come on, are you arigant? 163 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 12: Little Homo sapiens? 164 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 14: You don't know me? 165 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 2: I'm not surprised. 166 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 11: It's hard to recognize me anymore. 167 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 13: Oh. 168 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 6: Once I was so fresh, so green, my skies were 169 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 6: so bloom. 170 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 2: I was pristine, my Mother Earth. 171 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 10: And I'm sick and it's all. 172 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 14: Your fault to me? 173 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 7: Why is it all it's mart fault? 174 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 13: Yeah? 175 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 5: The Mother Earth thing really cuts both waysy. On the 176 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 5: one hand, it's presented as a reason to respect the planet, 177 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 5: on the other as a reason to endlessly extract with impunity. 178 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 5: It makes me wonder how nature even got coated as 179 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 5: feminine in the first place. 180 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:07,239 Speaker 15: A certain kind of European Christianity has been very influential 181 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 15: in the United States in terms of kind of framing 182 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 15: that men should have dominion over women and children, but 183 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 15: also over the environment. That has been really foundational to 184 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 15: the story of the United States. 185 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 6: That's Sophie Burke James. She's a researcher at Vanderbilt focused 186 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 6: on the intersection of gender, environment, and religion. Her work 187 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 6: often looks at the connections between the anti abortion movement 188 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 6: and other far right projects, including climate change. 189 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 15: We can see a very clear through line across anti 190 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 15: environmental movements that they generally are also anti feminist and 191 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 15: opposing gender equality and supporting various kinds of male supremacy. 192 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 15: That those are often very much linked, particularly in the 193 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 15: United States, but elsewhere as well. It's a power relation, 194 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 15: and I think that's what's really important in trying to 195 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 15: understand why the anti feminist far right movements of today 196 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 15: are also generally opposed to acknowledging there our current environmental reality, 197 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 15: which is we need a different relationship to the natural. 198 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 6: World, like this idea of dominion. It's not coming from nowhere. 199 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 6: It's a specific interpretation of the Bible. This is Genesis, right. 200 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 15: Let us make men in our after our likeness, and let. 201 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 13: Them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and. 202 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 15: Over the power of the air, and over the cattle, 203 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 15: and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing 204 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 15: that creepeth upon the earth. Yeah, a specific interpretation of 205 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 15: the Bible that really prioritizes this notion of power over others. 206 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 15: There's many biblical scholars that say that the Bible is 207 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 15: actually could be read as an environmental text, that there's 208 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 15: many themes in the Bible that talk about not just 209 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 15: dominion over and control over in nature, but can be 210 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 15: actually read as a text about how to celebrate nature 211 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 15: and live in harmony with nature. Protestantism is often very 212 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 15: much in line with capitalist values around property and around 213 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 15: viewing the natural world not as something that we rely 214 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 15: on and that requires respect and care, but as something 215 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 15: that can be parceled out into private property. And that's 216 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 15: a very different kind of relationship. 217 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 7: Right. 218 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 15: If it's your property, you can kind of do whatever 219 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 15: you want with it. It's again about power and control 220 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 15: and not about a kind of symbiotic relationship. 221 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 6: What's the connection then, to the plight of women, because 222 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 6: obviously today women aren't property, but they once were. 223 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 15: There are some parts of the current Christian right that 224 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 15: want not to turn women into property, but they are 225 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 15: opposed to the Nineteenth Amendment, which allows women the vote. 226 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 15: When I first started studying the Christian right in the 227 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 15: United States over fifteen years ago, that was a really 228 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 15: radical position that's becoming much more, not mainstream, but talked 229 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 15: about more broadly, like that women should be should no 230 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 15: longer have the right to vote. If we kind of 231 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 15: step back and look at what these movements are about, 232 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 15: they're about asserting relationships of power and control in the world, 233 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 15: and that means men should have power and control over women. 234 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 15: That feminism is a direct assault to this worldview, but 235 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 15: also recognizing the reality of climate change is also a 236 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 15: direct assault to that worldview, and that if you have 237 00:14:55,080 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 15: to recognize that you, as a human being are ten 238 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 15: on a much broader ecological system that you know is 239 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 15: vulnerable to human impacts, then it's a very different relationship 240 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 15: than one of power and control. And so I think 241 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 15: that the power and control is the kind of foundation 242 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 15: to both of those issues. 243 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 6: But a certain version of Christianity that says man has 244 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 6: dominion isn't the only thing driving a wedge between humans 245 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 6: in the natural world. During this time, this Protestant theology 246 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 6: was brought to the US by settlers. Where I live 247 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 6: on the outer tip of Cape Cod is actually the 248 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 6: first place the Pilgrims landed on their way to Plymouth. 249 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 6: But I think they couldn't get much food here, and 250 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 6: a lot of them starved to death. Anyway. The Pilgrims, 251 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 6: like most Europeans during the so called Age of Discovery, 252 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 6: believed this new world was promised to them by and 253 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 6: whoever was first to lay claim to it was the 254 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 6: rightful owner. This is known as the doctrine of Discovery. 255 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 5: Exactly, and a really cool loophole to this approach was 256 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 5: that if someone did make it there first, but they 257 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 5: weren't a Christian, that didn't count. 258 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 13: I hear I claimed this land and all literally tests 259 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 13: in the name of His majestin kaing James the past, 260 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 13: and to so name the settlement James Town. 261 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 7: The Doctrine of Discovery is one of the original international 262 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 7: law doctrines that was developed in the fourteen hundreds to 263 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 7: control the actions of European Christian nations. 264 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 5: This is Robert Miller. He's an expert in federal Indian 265 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 5: law and an enrolled citizen of the Eastern Shawnee Tribe. 266 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 7: As Europeans began to sail outside the site of land, 267 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 7: they began to be interested in acquiring empires in Africa 268 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 7: and then into the Americas and into Asia. And this 269 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 7: idea that the Church and the kings and queens of 270 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 7: Europe could develop international law to control how they acquired empires. 271 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 7: We call this the doctrine of discovery. Because Europeans were 272 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 7: discovering other cultures, other people's, other lands, and then wanted 273 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 7: to be able to claim them and have those claims 274 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 7: recognized under international law. It's finders keepers to the extent 275 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 7: that they were finding lands that were truly vacant. They 276 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 7: very rarely found lands that were truly vacant. They were 277 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 7: claiming the lands of indigenous peoples in Africa, in the Americas, 278 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 7: and in Asia. 279 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 5: Robert really blew my mind when he pointed out that 280 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 5: the doctrine of discovery is still alive and well today, 281 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 5: though it doesn't just apply two Christian nations colonizing other 282 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 5: parts of the world anymore, but it's still justifying what 283 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 5: it did back then resource extraction. 284 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 7: It is still the law today. Russia and China have 285 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 7: planted their national flags on the bottom of the ocean 286 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 7: bed under the North Pole in two thousand and seven, 287 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 7: and in twenty ten China puty its flag on the 288 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 7: bottom of the South China Sea. So nations are still 289 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 7: using this idea that where they arrived first, they can 290 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 7: acquire by claiming this area. 291 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 6: So while the Virginia and East India companies were sailing 292 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 6: around the world laying claim to new lands, the British 293 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 6: upper classes were also busy at home kicking peasants off 294 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 6: their land. This was a process called enclosure, which Karl 295 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 6: Marx writes a lot about it. And this was this 296 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 6: idea that in the feudal era you had lords who 297 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 6: were given land by the king, but then there was 298 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 6: also something called the commons, which was land that everyone 299 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 6: got to make use of, and they could graze their 300 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 6: animals there, and they could take firewood, etc. And at 301 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 6: some point in the sixteen hundreds, Parliament got together and 302 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 6: they started passing laws that allowed the wealthy to take 303 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 6: that land entirely for themselves and kick the peasants off 304 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 6: of it in the name of agricultural improvement. 305 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 9: Who raised a hand against the king's men will be arrested. 306 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 11: You'll have no right. 307 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 7: They've signed it out. 308 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 12: Well, now it belongs to the Earl of Manchester, by 309 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 12: whose authority, by the authority of the king. 310 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 11: Then I say that. 311 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:35,719 Speaker 4: King is a thing. 312 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 11: You're under arrest. Take them away. 313 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 6: And this is what, according to Marx, created the working 314 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 6: class people without land, who had to sell their labor 315 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 6: in order to survive. 316 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 5: Living in twenty twenty five, when absolutely everything has been commodified, 317 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 5: it's hard to remember that there was a before to 318 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 5: the way we live now. But it was during this 319 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 5: transition hundreds of years ago, when capitalism was just getting started, 320 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 5: that a lot of our collective ideas about nature were 321 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 5: starting to crystallize. One of the more important ones was 322 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 5: that if you can't price something like the value of 323 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 5: an impact ecosystem, for example, or clean drinking water, then 324 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 5: it's worth nothing. We got to read a new book 325 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 5: about all this, recently called Free Gifts, Capitalism and the 326 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 5: Politics of Nature by Elisa Battistoni. Here she is explaining 327 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 5: it in more detail. 328 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 13: Western culture and Enlightenment, and there's this moment that comes 329 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 13: about with Dick part and then other Enlightenment thinkers, that 330 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 13: really institutes the separation between like the thinking, rational human 331 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 13: being and the dumb matter of the world, Like that 332 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 13: animals or machines and everything else in. 333 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 6: The world is just kind of a solis nothing. 334 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 16: To be used as we will and sort of put 335 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 16: to human use. 336 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 13: Major division between human beings and the rest of the world. 337 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 13: Then the basic idea has really structured fundamentally a lot 338 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 13: of Western development. 339 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 2: The expropriation account. 340 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 17: Looks at this violent process of expropriation of taking. You know, 341 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 17: even John Locke would say God gave this orth command 342 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 17: in common, and then what happens is like some people 343 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 17: appropriate there's. 344 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 13: And the privatization of that by this very violent process. 345 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 13: I think that's the other sort of major story we. 346 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 6: Have about what happens with capital. 347 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 13: So the free gift is really built into sort of 348 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 13: like the daily processes of capitalism in a way that's 349 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 13: not necessarily about what we think or what we believe, 350 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 13: because there's this sort of foundational reality. 351 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 5: Apologies because I know you wrote able book about it, 352 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 5: but if. 353 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 14: You can define what you mean by a free gift, So. 354 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: This term the free gift of nature. 355 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 13: There's a term that I really get out of looking 356 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 13: at a lot of classical political economy. 357 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 18: So people like Adam Smith and David Ricardo and Jambetts, 358 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 18: and a lot of the people writing and like the 359 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 18: eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries who are writing the early 360 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 18: days of capitalism and the development of industrial capitalism, and 361 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 18: they are describing the contributions that non human nature make 362 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 18: to production. They talk about the organs of sheep that 363 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 18: help produce full they talk about soil fertility that helps 364 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 18: crops grow. There's a lot of different gifts of nature 365 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 18: that give gratuitously to production. They're observing all of these 366 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 18: wonderful gifts, but they're giving only to capital in the 367 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 18: system where they're the. 368 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 16: Ones who are benefiting from the free gifts of nature. 369 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 14: I'm curious what you think about the sort of way 370 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 14: that nature has been gendered throughout most of history in general, 371 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 14: and like weather call it Mother Earth or referring to 372 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 14: the planet, and all of these sort of like feminine terms, 373 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 14: has contributed to the idea that it should be free. 374 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 16: Yeah, I think we should be a more circumspect about 375 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 16: embracing the Mother Earth's language, because I think it can't 376 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 16: suggest this rationalization in a way of on the one hand, 377 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 16: that mothers are also supposed to give freely and generously 378 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 16: and selflessly and so on, and so we should treat 379 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 16: that labors if it's just kind of like available for 380 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 16: the taking, you know, it seems like the earth. 381 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 11: Is just giving them to us of its own free religion. 382 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 2: I think is rarely the case. 383 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 16: I think it's maybe more of like a thing where 384 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 16: it kind of ends up justifying that rather than causing it. 385 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 6: Okay, we've got man's dominion over nature and women, the 386 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 6: doctrine of discovery to justify grabbing foreign land, rich landlords 387 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 6: using violence to get rid of the commoners and take 388 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 6: it for themselves, and to keep all of this humming. 389 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 6: You've got the free gifts from mother nature. This stuff 390 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 6: may sound abstract, but it's still shaping so much conservative 391 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 6: opposition to environmental rules and the fight to stop climate change. 392 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 5: Yes, this is a super important point. The importance of 393 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 5: private property is at the core of American conservatism today. 394 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 5: The rights of property owners get invoked every time environmental 395 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 5: regulations threaten to limit how people use their land by 396 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 5: not allowing them to dump chemicals into rivers, for example, 397 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 5: or pollute the air with plumes of CO two. 398 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 6: And while there are many people who helped promote this concept, 399 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 6: there's one guy who did more than most, John Locke. 400 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,479 Speaker 5: Maybe father liberalism or a father anyway. Right wing groups 401 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 5: like the Federalist Society and the Fraser Institute are always 402 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 5: putting out youtubes about luck, though if you actually read 403 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 5: his work you realize how much they get wrong. 404 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 6: Yeah, the number of misleading YouTube explainers these guys put 405 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 6: out is crazy. I actually had to wade through quite 406 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 6: a few of them preparing for this episode, But I 407 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 6: think my favorite comes from Cato Institute, which is a 408 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 6: conservative libertarian think tank set up by oil billionaire Charles Koch. 409 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 6: Shout out Koch Brothers, the original Carbon Bros. All the 410 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 6: way back in the nineteen nineties, they were putting out 411 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 6: cassette tapes to try to win the hearts and minds 412 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 6: of young conservatives, and they dedicated a whole self study 413 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 6: tape on John Locke's Two Treatises of Government. 414 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 10: Welcome to Two Treatises of Government by John Locke, a 415 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 10: presentation of the Cato University, a project of the Cato Institute. 416 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 10: The notion that property was originally owned in common had 417 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 10: been defended by Christian thinkers for many centuries. Therefore, philosophers 418 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 10: had to explain how private ownership arose from communal ownership 419 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 10: and why this transition was morally justified. This was the 420 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 10: task undertaken by John Locke. 421 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 6: I love this intro. We need to find a way 422 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 6: to defend kicking people off their common land, And thankfully 423 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 6: here's John Locke. 424 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 19: God, who hath given the world to men in common, 425 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 19: hath also given them reason to make use of it 426 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 19: to the best advantage of life and convenience. The earth 427 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 19: and all that is therein is given to men for 428 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 19: the support and comfort of their being. Yet being given 429 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 19: for the use of men, there must of necessity be 430 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 19: a means to appropriate them some way or other before 431 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 19: they can be of any use or at all beneficial 432 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 19: to any particular man. 433 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 5: Okay, man has dominion over the earth, that's from Genesis, 434 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 5: Adam and Eve, and man is supposed to use his 435 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 5: reason to decide what to do with that. But these 436 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 5: days there's more than one man. So how do you 437 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:55,479 Speaker 5: decide who gets what? 438 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 10: Beginning with self ownership, Locke develops an ngous defense of 439 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 10: private property. 440 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 19: The labor of a man's body and the work of 441 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 19: his hands, we may say, are properly his. Whatsoever, then 442 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 19: he removes out of the state that nature hath provided 443 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 19: and left it in. He hath mixed his labor with 444 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 19: and joined to it something that is his own, and 445 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 19: thereby makes it his property. 446 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 10: When a man gathers acorns in the wild, he mixes 447 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 10: his labor with the acorns and thereby becomes their owner. 448 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 6: This is the classic finders keeper's defense. But Locke goes 449 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 6: beyond the doctrine of discovery. He's proposing that if I 450 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 6: use my reason to find and gather those acorns, then 451 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 6: I've mixed my labor with them, and they become my 452 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 6: private property. So sorry, Amy, no acorns for you. That 453 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 6: doesn't seem fair. 454 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 5: But Locke proposed that a value from some resource on 455 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 5: your land was derived as a result of your labor or. 456 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 6: Or the labor of a worker you paid. 457 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,239 Speaker 5: Then that value should be yours. And this had a 458 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 5: huge influence on the Founding followers. Here's Robert Miller again. 459 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 7: John Locke's theory was to put land to its best 460 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 7: and highest use, and in American society that seems to 461 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 7: be make the most money off it as you can 462 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 7: plunder it for its resources. If there's water, use it, 463 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 7: use it, even if you use it up or defolid 464 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 7: If there's oil or trees or minerals, it's strip mined 465 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 7: until you have it all and then leave it and 466 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 7: walk away. 467 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 6: So, really early on, right at the founding of the US, 468 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 6: you're getting this fundamental shift in our relationship to land, 469 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 6: where the natural world is fully abstracted as property with 470 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 6: economic value, what Marks would call a commodity property that 471 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 6: only white men can own. 472 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 7: I drink your milkshake. 473 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 19: I drink it up. 474 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 6: It's a pretty straight shot to this. 475 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: It's called drill, baby, drill. 476 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 6: We'll be drilling down more on that after the break. 477 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 11: American culture is a culture premised on cheap, blowing oil, 478 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 11: and automobility is a pillar of petra cultures in the 479 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 11: United States. It's also that it's very difficult to even 480 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 11: imagine how life could be otherwise because everything is cemented 481 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 11: around us. As long as there's power and profit to 482 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 11: be had from fossil fuels, we will continue to see 483 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 11: some form of petro masculinity. 484 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 6: This is Kara dagget A Virginia tech political scientist who 485 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 6: coined the term petromasculinity in twenty eighteen with a groundbreaking 486 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 6: study titled Petromasculinity, Fossil Fuels and Authoritarian Desire and It, 487 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 6: Daggett lays out the case for fossil fuels being about 488 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 6: more than just profit and energy and digs into the 489 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 6: ways our social and political lives have been shaped by 490 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 6: an attachment to oil, gas and coal. You poined this 491 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 6: term in twenty eighteen in an academic article. This was 492 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 6: during Trump's first term. What exactly did you mean by 493 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 6: that term and what were you seeing or reading at 494 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 6: the time that led you to this insight with that term. 495 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 11: I think it took on a life of its own, 496 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 11: which was a total surprise to me because. 497 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 7: It can be. 498 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 11: Understood in this deep, structural and historic which is really 499 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 11: where I wanted to go with it in the article. 500 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 11: And at the same time, it's so visibly present that 501 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 11: I think just saying the word people can understand or 502 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 11: think of examples that they see out on the road 503 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 11: and in their everyday life. When I wrote about this, 504 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 11: that was during the first Trump administration, and what I 505 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 11: wanted to do was understand this connection and far right 506 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 11: movements between misogyny, anti feminist politics, anti queer politics, and 507 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 11: the support for fossil fuel and climate denial. 508 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 6: One of the most visible aspects of this relationship between 509 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 6: masculinity and fossil fuels is the obsession that how many 510 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 6: men have with their cars. A twenty twenty three study 511 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 6: from the University College London found that when men were 512 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 6: manipulated into believing that their penises were smaller an average, 513 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 6: they were actually more likely to want to buy a 514 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 6: sports car or rate a sports car as important and 515 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 6: conferring status. For anybody who's ever seen a pair of 516 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 6: truck nuts dangling off the rear bumper of a pickup, 517 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 6: the relationship between driving a powerful vehicle and the masculinity 518 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 6: is pretty obvious. 519 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 3: Can you name the truck with pool wheel drime, smells 520 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 3: like a steak and seats thirty bad rule? 521 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 5: Can we know from past drilled seasons that Sigmund Freud's 522 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 5: nephew Edward Berneze actually introduced this idea of cars being 523 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 5: an extension of manhood. Here's an example from a car 524 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 5: ad he was involved with back in the fifties. 525 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 7: Taking so much longer than nast year it is really 526 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 7: is longer than some levels. 527 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 6: Oh that is obscene. 528 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 2: It's really something. 529 00:32:59,200 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 11: It's not subtle. 530 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 6: I can't believe that that past advertising standards of the time. 531 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 6: I know, because yeah, so much of American life is 532 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 6: built around driving, and for the past few years, motor 533 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 6: vehicles accounted for around thirty percent of total USCO two emissions. 534 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 5: And this stuff is baked into our lives in the 535 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 5: most intimate ways. Just think of all the little boys 536 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 5: playing with hot wheels, or the teenage boys dreaming of 537 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 5: picking up their prom dates with their own set of wheels, 538 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 5: prepping for their first job interview in the front seat, 539 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 5: putting those just married cans on the back. 540 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 6: Does anybody still do that thing with the cans on 541 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 6: the bumper of their car? 542 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 5: Okay, fair, I have not seen that in a while, 543 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 5: but the point still stands. Cards are integral to the 544 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 5: American way of life, and most Americans cannot imagine their 545 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 5: lives without them. But women drive too, right, There's nothing 546 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 5: innatly masculine about cars. So how did men become so 547 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 5: enamored with driving that we wound up with petro masculine the. 548 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 6: Car and the infrastructure and economy that we've built around. 549 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 6: It represents, for Daggett, a fantasy of freedom, one that 550 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 6: is deeply at odds with the reality of climate change. 551 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 6: It starts with the idea of dependency. Here's Daggett. 552 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 11: My sense is that this notion of freedom is really important, 553 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 11: and underlying it is a desire to escape relations of 554 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 11: dependency of all sorts, so to escape the fact of dependency, 555 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 11: which is really a fact of life. 556 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 2: It's most obvious when. 557 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 11: You're a kid, or when you're an old older person, 558 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 11: or if you have some sort of illness and you 559 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 11: need care. But really every minute of our life where 560 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 11: dependent on not just other people, but most obviously. 561 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 2: On our ecologies. And so it's not only the car. 562 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 11: It's also a broader notion of the way technology becomes 563 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 11: a source of escaping dependency. And that's masculinized because often 564 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 11: dependency is feminized. 565 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 6: A lot of the issues that men are grappling with 566 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 6: are real. Wages have stagnated, University tuition is ridiculously expensive, 567 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 6: jobs have been lost to offshoring and automation. This is 568 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 6: all a major challenge to the idea of bread winner masculinity, 569 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,720 Speaker 6: which is this concept that being a man means providing 570 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 6: for your family, and when you can't do that, you 571 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 6: lose a piece of your manhood. But when the bosses 572 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 6: decide you're no longer useful, the right is able to 573 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 6: blame women for taking your jobs, or environmentalists for weakening 574 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 6: the economy with their stupid. 575 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 3: Rules, moving ahead full steam to try to switch many 576 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 3: of our everyday appliances from gas to electric cars and 577 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 3: stoves to water heaters and air conditioners. Doing us now 578 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 3: were public and gonger'smen. Bill Johnson, I've always heard, Congressman, 579 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 3: that electric energy is the least efficient way, for instance, 580 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 3: to heat your household water. Why is the administration so 581 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 3: hell bent on making. 582 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 6: Americans do it that way? 583 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 20: Well, let's be clear about something, john This is not 584 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 20: about carbon it's not about climate change. 585 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 10: This is about control. 586 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 6: On the one hand, these environmentalists want to ruin all 587 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 6: the nice things about being an American man and a 588 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 6: feminists are going to come and take away your masculinity. 589 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 6: But in addition to this fear, there's also a kind 590 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 6: of pleasure in the destruction of those enemies, which is 591 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 6: where things get really twisted, you know, like blowing a thick, 592 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 6: black plume of smoke onto a cyclist or driving through 593 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 6: a crowd of climate protesters. 594 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 12: Angry mogorists have clashed with climate protesters who blokuded Melbourne's 595 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 12: busiest road during the morning peak. Drivers and even pedestrians 596 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 12: got involved in the fiery confrontation, with police nowhere to 597 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 12: be seen. 598 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 3: Frustration boils over on Punt Road. 599 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 11: In this fantasy of petromasculinity and the violence that goes 600 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 11: along with it, in some ways is an expression of 601 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 11: an acknowledgment, albeit on an unconscious level, of the existential 602 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 11: crisis that we are actually facing in terms of climate change. 603 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 2: And the fantasy element. 604 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 11: Is I think the fact that all of us who 605 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 11: live in very energy intensive cultures are every day living 606 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 11: on top of violence, living through violence. But there's a 607 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 11: lot of work that's done to hide that. There's a 608 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 11: lot of hypocrisy, there's a lot of suppressed and repressed 609 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,959 Speaker 11: shame and violence that comes with this way of life. 610 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 11: For those of us like you, I'm sure and me 611 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 11: and others who study and work on climate, it's heavy. 612 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 11: People talk about climate anxiety, climate grief. This fantasy is 613 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 11: another psychological position to respond to the acknowledgment of this 614 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 11: violence in the world. And it is to refuse to 615 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 11: feel shame and to say I embrace this, and this 616 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 11: actually is righteous, and I'm going to somehow fold this 617 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,720 Speaker 11: into a story that supports me in my sense of goodness, 618 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 11: and that therefore feels very pleasurable and very good. And 619 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,760 Speaker 11: so in some ways it's a fantasy, because of course 620 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 11: it is denying a whole of real problems. But on 621 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 11: the other hand, I think we need to understand the 622 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 11: fantasy and kind of denial that is happening in what 623 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 11: you might think of as the centrist liberal space. Sometimes 624 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 11: I think that this reactionary politics feels. 625 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 2: More deeply the crisis. 626 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 11: Of climate than sometimes some liberal politicians do. 627 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 6: It. You argue that petro masculinity is a form of 628 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 6: climate refusal that's not just kind of ignoring climate change, 629 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 6: but it's actively asserting a retrograde, anti democratic vision of 630 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 6: life in order to prevent society from engaging with climate reality. 631 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,959 Speaker 11: We can look at the example of coal and see 632 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 11: how it could play out, and this is one of 633 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 11: my colleagues and co authors named Shannon Bell, did this 634 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 11: research into Friends of Coal, which was an AstroTurf advocacy 635 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:13,800 Speaker 11: campaign for the coal industry that when there were a 636 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 11: lot of jobs lost over the years in the coal industry, 637 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 11: and there was concern on the part of the industry 638 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 11: exactly like you're saying, that there would be a less 639 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 11: public support, especially because some of the ways that coal 640 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,399 Speaker 11: was using less labors, things like mountaintop removal, where they're 641 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,800 Speaker 11: just exploding mountains leading to a lot of environmental damage, 642 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 11: and communities. Friends of coal started attaching coal to masculine 643 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 11: symbols like NASCAR, hunting, the military and making it into 644 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,399 Speaker 11: this like, instead of being attached to your union, which 645 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 11: was usually maybe how your strongest emotional attachment would be 646 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 11: as a coal miner, you become attached to coal itself 647 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 11: as in this symbolic territory as power. 648 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:05,919 Speaker 2: So that's a possibility. I think. 649 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 11: Also the problem with oil that we've been talking about 650 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,320 Speaker 11: is it's not just on the producer side, it's on 651 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 11: the culture and consumer side. People understand that oil is 652 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 11: part of their everyday life, and there's a lot of 653 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,760 Speaker 11: fear in what that means in terms of how ways 654 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 11: of life need to change. 655 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 6: So even if we get rid of gas cars, we've 656 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 6: got to roll back an entire lifestyle predicated on fossil fuels. 657 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 2: I think there's a problem of petrochemicals. 658 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 11: So even as we might decrease some oil use for 659 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 11: motive force, the oil industry is expanding their petrochemical production, 660 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 11: and they're using the same tactics, like they bring these 661 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 11: facilities into communities that maybe have lost a lot of 662 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 11: industry and say, these are communities that had maybe strong 663 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 11: grassroots environmental movements against former extractive industry, but they say, well, 664 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 11: you know, but we're going to give you jobs. And 665 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 11: this really is deeply existential. On the one hand, there 666 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 11: are fossil fuel elites who are villains. We should point 667 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,320 Speaker 11: to them on a broader sense. Public interest should not 668 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,879 Speaker 11: be in oil, but detangling the ways that oil has 669 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 11: sort of entered every facet of our lives is going 670 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:23,959 Speaker 11: to take a transformation. 671 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 2: It's not as simple as just switching a fuel. 672 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 5: Wow, that was a really interesting conversation to listen in on. 673 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 5: On that last point, I've been seeing for more than 674 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:40,320 Speaker 5: a decade that solving the climate problem requires moving beyond 675 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 5: looking at the energy source and really interrogating the power structure. 676 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 5: I think maybe people are finally starting to see that 677 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,720 Speaker 5: it's really hard to look back at the whole history 678 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 5: of patriarchy and colonization and capitalism and the way fossil 679 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 5: fuels and climate denial are woven in there and not 680 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,280 Speaker 5: see that. But I think so much of the climate 681 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 5: conversation has been about communicating the truth. If people just 682 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 5: understood the science, then we could all agree and finally 683 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 5: do something. But Dagett really gets at how deep our 684 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 5: attachment to fossil fuels actually runs, and how irrational it 685 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 5: can be, but how it meets these needs for security 686 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 5: and status and identity, or. 687 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 6: More darkly, give them a sense of power through violence. 688 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 6: That was one of the more eye opening moments in 689 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 6: our conversation, the idea that climate denial at least offers 690 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 6: a psychological medicine powerful enough to take on the pain 691 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 6: and uncertainty of the climate crisis, and even offers a 692 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 6: kind of sick benefit, whereas the neoliberal policy talk and 693 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 6: technocratic language of abundance just doesn't quite hit. 694 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 5: And that's what would be talking about in our next episode, 695 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,359 Speaker 5: the way that technology and science have taken on their 696 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 5: own Thorkier shade of expert masculinity, and the way climate 697 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 5: activists from Rachel Carson to Greta Tunberg have been dismissed 698 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 5: as hysterical because they just don't understand the science of 699 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,360 Speaker 5: carbon credits and blue hydrogen. 700 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 6: Because there are a lot of dudes in the climate 701 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 6: space too. They just often happen to be in favor 702 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:22,320 Speaker 6: of very tech heavy approaches like carbon capture, geoengineering or 703 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,800 Speaker 6: nuclear energy solutions that ignore the social dimensions of climate 704 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 6: change and often don't even add up. 705 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,760 Speaker 5: And they do not like it when cranky lesbians, Swedish 706 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 5: doom goblins, and blue haired weirdos question their calculations. 707 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:43,320 Speaker 20: The Antichrist is like some evil tech genius evil scientists 708 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,439 Speaker 20: who invents this machine to take over the world. People 709 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 20: are way too scared for that. In our world, it's 710 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 20: far more likely to be Greta Thunberg. 711 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 6: That was Peter Teo. You may know him from such 712 00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 6: companies as PayPal and Pallenteer, and also from his political 713 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 6: work as the chief backer of JD Vance. Teel and 714 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 6: many of his minions are a big part of what 715 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 6: we'll be talking about next time on carbon Brose. Join 716 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,799 Speaker 6: us for boy math solutions. 717 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 5: Carbon Brose is an original series from Drilled and Non Toxic, 718 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:28,800 Speaker 5: written by me Amy. 719 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,200 Speaker 6: Westervelt and by me Daniel Penny. 720 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 5: Our senior producer and sound designer is Martin Zoldzbostwick. He 721 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 5: also composed our theme song. 722 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 6: Check his stuff out. 723 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,720 Speaker 5: Our engineer is Peter Duff. Fact checking by Shilpa Jindia. 724 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,280 Speaker 6: Original artwork by Matthew Fleming. 725 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 5: Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton with the First 726 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 5: Amendment Project. Marketing by Maggie Taylor. Check out the Non 727 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 5: Toxic Podcast for more on the Mannos here, and good 728 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 5: to Drill Dot Media for more climate reporting and to 729 00:45:58,760 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 5: support artwork