WEBVTT - Open Secret 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:12.000 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:16.599 Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets that 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.439 are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:28.280 and the secrets we keep from ourselves. One of the 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:31.760 things I've noticed about family secrets, aside from the fact 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.720 that just about everybody has them, is that often if 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:40.080 somebody is, say a writer, an artist, a playwright, a filmmaker, 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:43.600 she or he ends up with a very strong impulse 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.239 to tell the story, to make something out of it, 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.680 to turn all that weird silence, shame, confusion, and betrayal 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.280 into a narrative into something that shines a bright light 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:58.120 in the darkness. I know, I did, I still do. 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.280 I mean, that's kind of what this podcast is all about. 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.240 You're about to hear Steve Licktie, who did just that 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:11.160 in a very personal documentary film called Open Secret. I 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.520 began by asking Steve to tell me about the landscape 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.800 of his childhood, his family, and the town in which 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:20.480 he grew up. I was raised in a large Catholic 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:23.880 family on a farm in Kansas. The closest town was 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.000 eight miles away, and it was very small. It was 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:30.640 five hundred people, the school I went to. It was 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:34.280 small towns had come together to attend This school that 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.640 was built in the middle of a cow pasture, had 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:41.000 about three hundred students from kindergarten through twelfth grade. My 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:43.120 class had around forty students. And these are kids that 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.679 I would have got to school with from kindergarten all 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.520 the way through to twelfth grade. The town center was 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:51.800 essentially the school, really, and that's where we gathered for 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:55.160 most things, and that's where the center of our our 0:01:55.200 --> 0:02:00.400 world was. At an early age, you remember was being 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.880 five or six years old, Steve was told by his 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:06.160 parents that he was adopted. Do you have a memory 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.600 of that moment? I'm afraid it might be conjured, uh, 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:12.840 like a made up memory. I feel like I do 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.720 have a memory of that with my mother telling me 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:19.400 that I was adopted and that my real parents loved 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.000 me very much. But I'm afraid it's been so long 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.120 I went out. Maybe that's what I wanted to be 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.639 remembered as if I know my family, like I think 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.480 I know my family, probably did not happen that way. 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:35.120 It's probably a very peripheral conversation, not even a conversation, 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.400 just a telling like a check off the list. Okay, 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:42.720 we told him move on. Steve was the youngest by far, 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:47.440 the youngest of his adoptive siblings. Before his parents Don 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.600 and Mary Jane adopted him, they raised a family of eight. 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.480 There were two boys and six girls. Who arranged an 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.680 aid from Steve's sister Beth, who was nine years older 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.079 than Steve, all the way to his oldest sister joe Me, 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:03.720 who was twenty two years his senior. By the time 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.440 Steve was five, Joanie had moved out of the house 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.320 and was living in Colorado. So I just went on 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.200 with my life having this information with my adoptive parents, 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:17.840 who were older than my classmates parents by probably thirty years, 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.600 I would say. But then the day before my high 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.880 school graduation, everything changed, at least how I saw myself changed. 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.480 My two best friends, Alan and Vance came over to 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.960 my house, walked into my bedroom and said that they 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:37.080 needed to tell me something. It was Vance who said, 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:41.240 we know who your mom is. He says, it's Joanie. 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.760 So up until that moment, I thought Joanie was my 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.600 adopted sister. This meant then that my adoptive parents were 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:53.240 really my grandparents. My memory of that moment was me 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.720 almost immediately trying to prove them wrong in a very 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.400 sort of half hearted way. I kept saying that it 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.720 didn't make it. But I think that there was something 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:04.760 always in the back of my mind where I knew 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:08.119 something was not quite right with my family and my 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:12.000 situation within that family. And I remember asking them about 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.600 my father, but they didn't know anything about my father. 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:17.680 And then that was it. I mean, I think we 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:21.039 talked a little longer they left. I graduated from high school, 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.719 and for most of that summer I don't think I 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:30.160 talked about it again. Do you know why Alan and 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:34.359 Vance decided that this was the moment to tell you 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:38.240 what they knew, Because again, in my mind, going back 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:42.120 to this small town, I'm imagining it was a place 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:46.320 that people lived in for generations, not a lot of 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:48.159 people moved in, not a lot of people moved out. 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:53.160 And these were guys that you grew up with your 0:04:53.160 --> 0:05:00.240 whole life. Is that correct? That's right? They knew every thing. 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.680 I think that those kids who were my classmates and 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:09.080 the people I went to school with all kind of 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:10.920 found out at different times of their lives. That they 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:12.680 didn't all find it out at once. Some found out 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.159 very young. Some found out in junior high, but there 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.520 was a collective agreement among them to make sure that 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.640 I didn't find out. I just have to stop for 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:28.920 a second here, just stop, hold on. It's one thing 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.400 to have a massive secret kept from you for your 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.240 entire life, to grow up thinking you're adopted, and then 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.200 all of a sudden find out that not only are 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.520 you not adopted, but your older sister is your mother 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:45.920 and your adoptive parents are your actual grandparents. That would 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.240 be world rocking enough, but then it turns out that 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:55.040 a whole town, your teachers, coaches, friends, parents, friends, teammates, 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.440 the checkout guy at the grocery store had kept that 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:06.240 secret from you were eighteen years I remember Vance and 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.480 Alan both saying to me, we're men now, and Vance, 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:12.880 I think, says, you know, they weren't going to tell 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:17.120 you your parents, so I did. This was true love 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.320 and respect for my friends at the time, saying hey, 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.920 here's this thing. We've known. Everybody that we grew up 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.880 with knows, and you now need to know too. You 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:29.520 have to be brought in to this secret because we're 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.120 going to be separating and going our separate ways, and 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:37.479 we think you should know, secrets do a lot of 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.800 things to different people in different ways, and the secret creators, 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.200 the secret keepers, and then the people who are on 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.320 the receiving end of the secret, of the victims of 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.760 the secret, all have different things that that they grapple with. 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:55.520 One image particularly stands out for me from Steve's documentary. 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.800 I found it incredibly haunting. It's a photo taken with 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:01.640 an a day or so of Steve being told the 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.760 truth about his identity, that he isn't adopted at all, 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.200 that his older sister is his mother, and that his 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:12.040 mother and father are his grandparents. And in this photo 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:16.120 Steve has his arms around both his parents, or rather grandparents, 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.000 and he has this great, big smile on his face. 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.320 It's always a little bit dangerous to read too much 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.320 into a photograph, but when I looked at this one, 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.480 it was hard to reconcile that grinning kid at his 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.560 high school graduation and what must have been going on 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:35.720 beneath the surface. They completely pushed down all of that 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:40.760 information and didn't bring it up at all to my 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:45.320 parents for a while. That was a period of me 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:50.320 just trying to enjoy that moment of graduating from high 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.320 school and this next phase of my life. But I'm 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.560 sure underneath all that, I was thinking, well, what is 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:59.200 the next phase of my life? Who am I? Literally? 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:06.320 Who am I? Why did my family do this? We're 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:14.360 going to pause for a moment. Do you think that 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:19.800 you were afraid or nervous about talking to your parents 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:23.240 about it because you were trying to kind of absorb 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:25.640 it in terms of your own reality and not bring 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.720 their reality into it, or perhaps because did you wonder 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:34.040 if they would be angry or whether they would deny 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.720 yes to all those things that you just said. I 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.160 was worried about all that stuff, and I kind of 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.880 always kept my emotions in check, and I still do 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.760 to a certain extent, and it was something that I 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:49.960 didn't want to lose control by bringing it up so 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.400 soon after finding out and feeling like I was going 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.560 to careen into this emotional territory that I wasn't ready 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:01.800 to deal with. Steve's family wasn't one to talk to 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:05.079 each other about feelings or problems. It was an atmosphere 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:08.760 of Midwestern stoicism, with a less said the better and 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.320 secrets were best off remaining. Just that, like so many 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:16.560 dustballs swept under the rug. So it makes total sense 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:18.880 that Steve would want to stay in control of his 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.439 own brand new narrative for as long as he could. 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.680 When he did think about it, he did the mental math. Well, 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.880 Joanie is twenty two years older than him, That makes sense. 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:32.000 Of course she would have been able to give birth 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.600 to a child. And then there was the fact that 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.560 he resembled some members of his family in a way 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:43.720 that an adoptive kid probably wouldn't. And as I started 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:45.600 to think about those things, it started to make more 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:47.840 sense to me. And I think that my belief in 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.200 it crept up over time, and eventually, you know, then 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.120 became something that I fully and holly believed and knew 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.120 to be true. And that's probably when the lid really 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:02.680 came off of everything. So here's another thing about secrets. 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.400 Once we know the truth, it can't help but live 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.440 inside us. Even if we try to ignore what we know. 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.520 It pushes its way to the surface of our consciousness. 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:19.559 Sometimes it whispers, sometimes it shouts. One weekend when he's 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.480 home from college, Donn and Mary Jane walk in on 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.520 Steve having sex with a girlfriend. Picture Mary Jane as 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:30.160 a seventies something. Francis McDormand that's who would be cast 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:32.880 as her in the movie. And Don is a sort 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:37.800 of elderly ed Harris all gruff and taciturn. So Don 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.120 and Mary Jane walk in on two teenagers and Steve's 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:46.520 traditional Catholic parents, or I should say grandparents, are appalled. 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.400 That was a Saturday. The next day, Sunday, I was 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.720 in bed and I heard the TV go on loudly, 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.679 and it was a preacher televangelista, you know, on a 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:01.679 Sunday morning show, preaching abstinence, and my mom turned it 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:05.920 up really loud. And my room was right next to 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:09.040 the living room where the TV was, And I got up, 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:11.440 walked out into the living room and I said, did 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.520 you play this sermon for Joanie? And then I went 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.920 over and I shut the TV off, and she said, 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.000 what are you talking about? I said, did you play 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:23.760 this sermon about not having sex to Joanie? And she said, 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:25.720 I have no idea what you mean. I go, I 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:30.120 know Joanie is my mother, and she just kept denying it. 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:32.040 I have no idea, what are you talking about? Who 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:33.920 told you that? There was a back and forth for 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.439 a time, and then the most vivid memory of this 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:38.920 is my father sitting in his recliner while this is 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.480 all going on, and he just takes his hand, he 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:43.800 slams it down on the arm and he says, damn it, 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:48.200 Mary Jane, just tell him. And that's when it all 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:52.880 sort of broke away, and she said, yes, it's true, Joanie, 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:57.000 is your mother. We adopted you, we your grandparents. And 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:00.680 then I was incredibly angry. I stored out of the house, 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.880 I got into my car and drove away, checked into 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.559 a motel room in the town, the big town, called 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:14.040 my friends, and we got drunk. But with your anger 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.480 towards your parents, it sounds a little bit like confronting 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:22.680 them and then having them finally acknowledge it and admit 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.000 it brought this to a different level of reality for you, 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.240 because it doesn't sound like you were walking around angry 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.720 prior to that. It sounds like you were just trying 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:34.640 to digest it and maybe even in a bit of 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:38.080 a state of numbness. But the reality of that confrontation 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.240 brought it home for you. Yeah, it's funny. I think 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:45.720 I remember I was embarrassed about being caught having sex. 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.360 That was like a real felt like was an invasion 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.839 of my privacy, and I just felt really embarrassed about it. 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:53.160 I always wonder if that had not happened, how long 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.360 would it have gone before I confronted? Would I have ever? 0:12:55.640 --> 0:13:00.680 Would I have just like never talked about it. But 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.040 there was something about that moment, my mom's sort of 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:08.600 almost like smugness about it, her shame in me having 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.400 premarital sex, and I just couldn't take the hypocrisy in 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.440 that moment. I think that's partly why I snapped. It 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.520 was all these mixed emotions of embarrassment and feeling like 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.400 she didn't have any place to be lecturing me about 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:23.280 these things when her own daughter, her real own daughter, 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.760 had this affair as a young woman and got pregnant. 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.319 There's nothing an eighteen year old boy like less than hypocrisy, 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:32.959 That's right. I was like a very holding Coffield moment 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.160 of like, who these phonies treating me like they don't 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:36.600 know who I am and what I do? And how 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.680 dare her? You know? I'm a man. I keep going 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.600 back to the whole idea that the entire town knew 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.400 the truth of Steve's identity and that he was the 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.880 only one in the dark. I think I'm obsessed with 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.000 this part of his story my own personal obsession with 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:56.760 it because when I discovered my own massive family secret 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.400 that my dad had not been my biological father, and 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.480 I began calling people who were still alive since both 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.640 my parents were long gone, to ask them what they knew. 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.160 I was terrified that the only one who didn't know 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:15.560 the truth of my own identity was me. Right, I 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.360 was really digging for what did they know? And each 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:21.800 time I made a phone call, my heart was pounding 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.680 and my palms were sweating. And I finally realized that 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:26.560 what I was most afraid I was going to find 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.760 out was that everybody knew. Interesting, you know, that I 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.040 was the only one in the dark. So I was 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.800 very conscious of that, wondering what that would have felt 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:37.240 like for you. It's like you were living in the 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:41.040 Truman Show. Yeah right, that's right. I it's funny that 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.560 you felt that was your fear in your own circumstances. 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.960 I have many fears, but one of them was did 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:52.160 everybody know this but me? So let me let me 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:53.960 ask you this, if you don't mind, let me turn 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.720 the tables for one second. Do you feel embarrassed by 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.640 that that you lacked that ability to perceive something that 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.040 was so obviously not right, Or what is the feeling 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.880 that you're having about everyone knowing but you. It's already 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:10.880 evolved in a couple of years that I've been living 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:13.040 with this. I think initially there was a little bit 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:17.200 of a feeling of embarrassment or shame or I should 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.840 have known, or you know. I pride myself on my intuition. 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.200 Where was my intuition? Actually? I think my intuition was 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.200 alive and well and working very hard to try to 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:32.920 understand something that I couldn't understand. I just couldn't. We believe, 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.640 and we construct narratives around what we know and what 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.720 we're told as children, and and the trust that we 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:40.840 place in the adults around us, and it kind of 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.160 forms our reality. I think I was most bothered by 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.880 the idea that I think my mom and dad thought 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.240 that they could get away with it, And I mean 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:51.520 that that sounds so vicious that like a boy, they 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.240 just crime. I don't know that they were ever going 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.640 to tell me, and I think that is probably the 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:01.720 driving force of any anger I may have about the situation. 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.160 I don't know that they ever had any intention of 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:09.480 actually ever telling me. I have a friend who has 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:12.360 psychic abilities, and it's pretty sure she knows what happens 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.720 when we die. I'm sure I've lost some of you here, 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.760 and I'm a bit of a skeptic myself, so don't 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:22.960 shoot the messenger anyway. She told me that when we die, 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:25.520 we can look back and survey our lives with a 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.600 sense of distance and compassion, and we get to see 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.280 the whole thing, what we got right, what we missed, 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:37.040 what we just didn't see. And I remember thinking that 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.440 if this was true, if I hadn't discovered the truth 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.600 about my dad, I would have been standing there thinking, 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.640 oh my god, I missed the whole thing I was 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:52.960 wrong about myself. I didn't have an essential piece of information. Yeah, 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:58.280 that that would have been pretty bad death moment, big bummer, 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:00.400 except apparently you don't feel like it's a bump because 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:05.960 you're dead. So Steve has his big confrontation with Don 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.520 and Mary Jane. He doesn't talk to anybody else about 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:13.360 his secret, not for a very long time. But as 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.399 he moves through his twenties, an aimlessness sets in. The 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.080 kid who was a star in high school barely scrapes 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.600 through college, and it's kind of flailing. He doesn't have 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.800 a passion for work. His relationships are pretty unsatisfying. But 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.840 he doesn't know what's wrong. He doesn't know why he's 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.920 so miserable. I got up in the morning, I had jobs, 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.560 I did all the things you do, but I was depressed. 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.080 I sometimes I couldn't get out of bed for a 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.679 whole day. I'm just play there. I did really poorly 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:45.359 in college. Everything how I was in high school was 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:47.520 not the way I was as the sort of young adult, 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:51.080 drinking too much, all the stuff that goes along with 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.600 something like this happening to you. But I never put 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.200 two and two together. I wasn't like, oh, I I'm 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.800 sad and depressed because the secret was kept for me 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:03.560 my entire childhood. I never made that connection. And I 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.800 went to various counselors and psychologists and so forth, and 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:09.680 of course it would come out that I would tell 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.360 this story, but I still can never make that direct connection. 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:14.879 I just sort of thought, oh, well, I'm lazy, or 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.040 I've not found the right thing to do in my life, 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:19.399 or whatever it might be. And that was kind of 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.840 my twenties. For the most part, just didn't feel good. 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.280 I didn't feel close to my family, I didn't feel 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.359 the relationships that I would have with people were always 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.119 going to be on my terms. That you really do 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.919 develop this lack of trust, even though you can't articulate that. 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:38.720 It's just a feeling of I don't know about this person. 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:41.480 Just keep you at arms length for a while. I 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:43.040 don't know what's going on with you. I don't want 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.320 you in my space. And then you do this stupid 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:48.439 thing where you use I did this a lot in 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:50.600 my twenties that I look back on now, and then 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.359 you use this story as like a little weapon or 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:55.960 a way of getting people to think that you're interesting 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.639 or damaged in some way. And I would deploy it 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.280 at times that I thought would maybe that would impress 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.600 this girl or maybe you know, I would really wow 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:08.919 this party crowd with my story of my horrible and 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.320 of course I would embellish it. But even then, I 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:12.960 think I was trying to figure out, what does this 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.679 story mean to me? Really? What is it all about? Really? 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:19.359 And I think that's what I was playing with in 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:23.040 those early days, and it moved forward to something more concrete, 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:25.439 and as I discovered journalism, and I just discovered that 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.800 there is a real power in crafting a truthful narrative, 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:31.080 or at least as truthful as you can make it 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:35.280 and your emotional truth. Steve eventually discovers his calling as 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:39.639 a journalist and finds success working for NPR and various 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:43.240 other news organizations. He digs for the truth in other 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:47.360 people's stories, and eventually he begins to think he might 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:49.440 want to make a film to dig for the truth 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:53.040 of his own family story and in order to tell 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.560 the truth in three and sixty degrees, not only Steve's 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.399 own story, but seen through the lens of everyone in 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:05.800 his family. He begins a process of interviewing his brother's sisters, Mary, Jane, Don, 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:08.920 his old friends, the ones who broke the news to him. 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:13.880 To begin with, being the documentarian allows Steve a little 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:19.000 bit of distance, and also this is so important permission, 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:23.639 his camera and recording equipment a buffer between himself and 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:26.320 his own pain. Then I started to see like there 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.639 was a way to do this, tell the story that 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.439 would be fair to everyone, not just to me, but 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.320 to my family. I learned that there was a way 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.560 to let people have their say about what had happened 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.280 without any accusations and without people feeling like they were 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.919 put on trial, and that's ultimately where I got to. 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:47.080 But it was incredibly long period of time, and even 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:48.720 the making of the film was long. You know. I 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:50.520 started in two thousand three. I don't think I finished 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.800 in two two eleven. So it was a very very 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:57.720 hard pulling thread very slowly. Do you think that in 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:02.439 part was because as you could sort of only really 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.240 examine it a little bit at a time. Yeah. I 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:07.679 couldn't have done it all at once. It would have 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.520 killed me. Every time I did an interview with a 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:12.679 family member, it would take this little chunk out of me. 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:14.760 Then I just steal myself for the next one. And 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:17.040 also you know, the issues of job and money and 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.800 all those sorts of things. But it was just every 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:24.000 interview was like a little slice of energy. Decision making, 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.159 all those things were just sort of taken away and 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:29.640 it took a while. Then you do all the interviews 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:32.000 for it, and then you have the editing process, which 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:35.880 was absolutely torturous for me to watch myself, to see 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:37.719 the things I was saying, to acting the way I 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.600 was acting. I had a great editor who taught me 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:44.320 to be honest in those moments and don't ask to 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:47.280 have things cut out that are gonna be truthful and honest, 0:21:50.320 --> 0:22:04.520 We're going to take a quick break. And then there's Joanie. 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:08.480 The palpable awkwardness and discomfort during the moments Joanie is 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:12.400 on screen made me squirm as Steve and Joanie talk 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:16.760 that awkwardness sometimes turns to anger. There's such a feeling 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:20.160 of disconnect between them. She doesn't seem like his mother, 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:24.000 she doesn't seem like his sister. A glass of wine 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:27.320 is always nearby whenever she's on camera, and she seems 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.600 a bit lost, baffled at the turns her life is taken. 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.800 Try as I might, I didn't really feel a bond 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:39.160 between them. Steve does, however, seem like a son during 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:42.480 his moments with Mary, Jane and Don because he was 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:46.439 their son for eighteen formative years. It's not like his 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:51.199 discovery automatically turned them into grandparents in his psyche, nor 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.960 did it turn Joanie into his mother, because that's just 0:22:55.200 --> 0:23:00.359 not how it works. In the film, you in review 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:04.520 Joanie a number of times, and those are some of 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:10.040 the most painful scenes to me. They were in the film, 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:14.919 and there's a moment in which I guess it's in 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:20.040 anticipation of an upcoming wedding and your wedding and whether 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:23.320 she's going to come or not come, and who she 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:28.400 will be at your wedding, how do you explain her? 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:33.480 What is her role? And you say to her, you know, 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:37.280