1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets that 3 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. One of the 5 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: things I've noticed about family secrets, aside from the fact 6 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: that just about everybody has them, is that often if 7 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: somebody is, say a writer, an artist, a playwright, a filmmaker, 8 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: she or he ends up with a very strong impulse 9 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: to tell the story, to make something out of it, 10 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: to turn all that weird silence, shame, confusion, and betrayal 11 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: into a narrative into something that shines a bright light 12 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: in the darkness. I know, I did, I still do. 13 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of what this podcast is all about. 14 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: You're about to hear Steve Licktie, who did just that 15 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: in a very personal documentary film called Open Secret. I 16 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: began by asking Steve to tell me about the landscape 17 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: of his childhood, his family, and the town in which 18 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: he grew up. I was raised in a large Catholic 19 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: family on a farm in Kansas. The closest town was 20 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: eight miles away, and it was very small. It was 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: five hundred people, the school I went to. It was 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: small towns had come together to attend This school that 23 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: was built in the middle of a cow pasture, had 24 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: about three hundred students from kindergarten through twelfth grade. My 25 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: class had around forty students. And these are kids that 26 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: I would have got to school with from kindergarten all 27 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: the way through to twelfth grade. The town center was 28 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: essentially the school, really, and that's where we gathered for 29 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: most things, and that's where the center of our our 30 00:01:55,200 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: world was. At an early age, you remember was being 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: five or six years old, Steve was told by his 32 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: parents that he was adopted. Do you have a memory 33 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: of that moment? I'm afraid it might be conjured, uh, 34 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: like a made up memory. I feel like I do 35 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: have a memory of that with my mother telling me 36 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: that I was adopted and that my real parents loved 37 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: me very much. But I'm afraid it's been so long 38 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: I went out. Maybe that's what I wanted to be 39 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: remembered as if I know my family, like I think 40 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: I know my family, probably did not happen that way. 41 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: It's probably a very peripheral conversation, not even a conversation, 42 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: just a telling like a check off the list. Okay, 43 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: we told him move on. Steve was the youngest by far, 44 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: the youngest of his adoptive siblings. Before his parents Don 45 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: and Mary Jane adopted him, they raised a family of eight. 46 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: There were two boys and six girls. Who arranged an 47 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: aid from Steve's sister Beth, who was nine years older 48 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 1: than Steve, all the way to his oldest sister joe Me, 49 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: who was twenty two years his senior. By the time 50 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: Steve was five, Joanie had moved out of the house 51 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: and was living in Colorado. So I just went on 52 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: with my life having this information with my adoptive parents, 53 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: who were older than my classmates parents by probably thirty years, 54 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: I would say. But then the day before my high 55 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: school graduation, everything changed, at least how I saw myself changed. 56 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: My two best friends, Alan and Vance came over to 57 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: my house, walked into my bedroom and said that they 58 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: needed to tell me something. It was Vance who said, 59 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: we know who your mom is. He says, it's Joanie. 60 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: So up until that moment, I thought Joanie was my 61 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: adopted sister. This meant then that my adoptive parents were 62 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: really my grandparents. My memory of that moment was me 63 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: almost immediately trying to prove them wrong in a very 64 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: sort of half hearted way. I kept saying that it 65 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: didn't make it. But I think that there was something 66 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: always in the back of my mind where I knew 67 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 1: something was not quite right with my family and my 68 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: situation within that family. And I remember asking them about 69 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: my father, but they didn't know anything about my father. 70 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: And then that was it. I mean, I think we 71 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: talked a little longer they left. I graduated from high school, 72 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: and for most of that summer I don't think I 73 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: talked about it again. Do you know why Alan and 74 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: Vance decided that this was the moment to tell you 75 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: what they knew, Because again, in my mind, going back 76 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: to this small town, I'm imagining it was a place 77 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: that people lived in for generations, not a lot of 78 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: people moved in, not a lot of people moved out. 79 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: And these were guys that you grew up with your 80 00:04:53,160 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: whole life. Is that correct? That's right? They knew every thing. 81 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: I think that those kids who were my classmates and 82 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: the people I went to school with all kind of 83 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: found out at different times of their lives. That they 84 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: didn't all find it out at once. Some found out 85 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: very young. Some found out in junior high, but there 86 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: was a collective agreement among them to make sure that 87 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: I didn't find out. I just have to stop for 88 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: a second here, just stop, hold on. It's one thing 89 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: to have a massive secret kept from you for your 90 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: entire life, to grow up thinking you're adopted, and then 91 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: all of a sudden find out that not only are 92 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: you not adopted, but your older sister is your mother 93 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: and your adoptive parents are your actual grandparents. That would 94 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: be world rocking enough, but then it turns out that 95 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: a whole town, your teachers, coaches, friends, parents, friends, teammates, 96 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: the checkout guy at the grocery store had kept that 97 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: secret from you were eighteen years I remember Vance and 98 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: Alan both saying to me, we're men now, and Vance, 99 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: I think, says, you know, they weren't going to tell 100 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: you your parents, so I did. This was true love 101 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: and respect for my friends at the time, saying hey, 102 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: here's this thing. We've known. Everybody that we grew up 103 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: with knows, and you now need to know too. You 104 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: have to be brought in to this secret because we're 105 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: going to be separating and going our separate ways, and 106 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: we think you should know, secrets do a lot of 107 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: things to different people in different ways, and the secret creators, 108 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: the secret keepers, and then the people who are on 109 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: the receiving end of the secret, of the victims of 110 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: the secret, all have different things that that they grapple with. 111 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: One image particularly stands out for me from Steve's documentary. 112 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: I found it incredibly haunting. It's a photo taken with 113 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: an a day or so of Steve being told the 114 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: truth about his identity, that he isn't adopted at all, 115 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: that his older sister is his mother, and that his 116 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: mother and father are his grandparents. And in this photo 117 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: Steve has his arms around both his parents, or rather grandparents, 118 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: and he has this great, big smile on his face. 119 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: It's always a little bit dangerous to read too much 120 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: into a photograph, but when I looked at this one, 121 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: it was hard to reconcile that grinning kid at his 122 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: high school graduation and what must have been going on 123 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: beneath the surface. They completely pushed down all of that 124 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: information and didn't bring it up at all to my 125 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: parents for a while. That was a period of me 126 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: just trying to enjoy that moment of graduating from high 127 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: school and this next phase of my life. But I'm 128 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: sure underneath all that, I was thinking, well, what is 129 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: the next phase of my life? Who am I? Literally? 130 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: Who am I? Why did my family do this? We're 131 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: going to pause for a moment. Do you think that 132 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: you were afraid or nervous about talking to your parents 133 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: about it because you were trying to kind of absorb 134 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: it in terms of your own reality and not bring 135 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: their reality into it, or perhaps because did you wonder 136 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: if they would be angry or whether they would deny 137 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: yes to all those things that you just said. I 138 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: was worried about all that stuff, and I kind of 139 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: always kept my emotions in check, and I still do 140 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: to a certain extent, and it was something that I 141 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: didn't want to lose control by bringing it up so 142 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: soon after finding out and feeling like I was going 143 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: to careen into this emotional territory that I wasn't ready 144 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: to deal with. Steve's family wasn't one to talk to 145 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 1: each other about feelings or problems. It was an atmosphere 146 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: of Midwestern stoicism, with a less said the better and 147 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: secrets were best off remaining. Just that, like so many 148 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: dustballs swept under the rug. So it makes total sense 149 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: that Steve would want to stay in control of his 150 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 1: own brand new narrative for as long as he could. 151 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: When he did think about it, he did the mental math. Well, 152 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: Joanie is twenty two years older than him, That makes sense. 153 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: Of course she would have been able to give birth 154 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: to a child. And then there was the fact that 155 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: he resembled some members of his family in a way 156 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: that an adoptive kid probably wouldn't. And as I started 157 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: to think about those things, it started to make more 158 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: sense to me. And I think that my belief in 159 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: it crept up over time, and eventually, you know, then 160 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: became something that I fully and holly believed and knew 161 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: to be true. And that's probably when the lid really 162 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: came off of everything. So here's another thing about secrets. 163 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: Once we know the truth, it can't help but live 164 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: inside us. Even if we try to ignore what we know. 165 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: It pushes its way to the surface of our consciousness. 166 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: Sometimes it whispers, sometimes it shouts. One weekend when he's 167 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: home from college, Donn and Mary Jane walk in on 168 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: Steve having sex with a girlfriend. Picture Mary Jane as 169 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: a seventies something. Francis McDormand that's who would be cast 170 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: as her in the movie. And Don is a sort 171 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: of elderly ed Harris all gruff and taciturn. So Don 172 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: and Mary Jane walk in on two teenagers and Steve's 173 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: traditional Catholic parents, or I should say grandparents, are appalled. 174 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: That was a Saturday. The next day, Sunday, I was 175 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: in bed and I heard the TV go on loudly, 176 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: and it was a preacher televangelista, you know, on a 177 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 1: Sunday morning show, preaching abstinence, and my mom turned it 178 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: up really loud. And my room was right next to 179 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: the living room where the TV was, And I got up, 180 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: walked out into the living room and I said, did 181 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: you play this sermon for Joanie? And then I went 182 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: over and I shut the TV off, and she said, 183 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? I said, did you play 184 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: this sermon about not having sex to Joanie? And she said, 185 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: I have no idea what you mean. I go, I 186 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: know Joanie is my mother, and she just kept denying it. 187 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: I have no idea, what are you talking about? Who 188 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: told you that? There was a back and forth for 189 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: a time, and then the most vivid memory of this 190 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: is my father sitting in his recliner while this is 191 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: all going on, and he just takes his hand, he 192 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: slams it down on the arm and he says, damn it, 193 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: Mary Jane, just tell him. And that's when it all 194 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: sort of broke away, and she said, yes, it's true, Joanie, 195 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: is your mother. We adopted you, we your grandparents. And 196 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: then I was incredibly angry. I stored out of the house, 197 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: I got into my car and drove away, checked into 198 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: a motel room in the town, the big town, called 199 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: my friends, and we got drunk. But with your anger 200 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: towards your parents, it sounds a little bit like confronting 201 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: them and then having them finally acknowledge it and admit 202 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: it brought this to a different level of reality for you, 203 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: because it doesn't sound like you were walking around angry 204 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: prior to that. It sounds like you were just trying 205 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: to digest it and maybe even in a bit of 206 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: a state of numbness. But the reality of that confrontation 207 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: brought it home for you. Yeah, it's funny. I think 208 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: I remember I was embarrassed about being caught having sex. 209 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: That was like a real felt like was an invasion 210 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 1: of my privacy, and I just felt really embarrassed about it. 211 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: I always wonder if that had not happened, how long 212 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: would it have gone before I confronted? Would I have ever? 213 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: Would I have just like never talked about it. But 214 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: there was something about that moment, my mom's sort of 215 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: almost like smugness about it, her shame in me having 216 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: premarital sex, and I just couldn't take the hypocrisy in 217 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: that moment. I think that's partly why I snapped. It 218 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: was all these mixed emotions of embarrassment and feeling like 219 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: she didn't have any place to be lecturing me about 220 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: these things when her own daughter, her real own daughter, 221 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: had this affair as a young woman and got pregnant. 222 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: There's nothing an eighteen year old boy like less than hypocrisy, 223 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 1: That's right. I was like a very holding Coffield moment 224 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: of like, who these phonies treating me like they don't 225 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: know who I am and what I do? And how 226 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: dare her? You know? I'm a man. I keep going 227 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: back to the whole idea that the entire town knew 228 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: the truth of Steve's identity and that he was the 229 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: only one in the dark. I think I'm obsessed with 230 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: this part of his story my own personal obsession with 231 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: it because when I discovered my own massive family secret 232 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: that my dad had not been my biological father, and 233 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: I began calling people who were still alive since both 234 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: my parents were long gone, to ask them what they knew. 235 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: I was terrified that the only one who didn't know 236 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: the truth of my own identity was me. Right, I 237 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: was really digging for what did they know? And each 238 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: time I made a phone call, my heart was pounding 239 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: and my palms were sweating. And I finally realized that 240 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: what I was most afraid I was going to find 241 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: out was that everybody knew. Interesting, you know, that I 242 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: was the only one in the dark. So I was 243 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: very conscious of that, wondering what that would have felt 244 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: like for you. It's like you were living in the 245 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: Truman Show. Yeah right, that's right. I it's funny that 246 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: you felt that was your fear in your own circumstances. 247 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: I have many fears, but one of them was did 248 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: everybody know this but me? So let me let me 249 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: ask you this, if you don't mind, let me turn 250 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: the tables for one second. Do you feel embarrassed by 251 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: that that you lacked that ability to perceive something that 252 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: was so obviously not right, Or what is the feeling 253 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: that you're having about everyone knowing but you. It's already 254 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: evolved in a couple of years that I've been living 255 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: with this. I think initially there was a little bit 256 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: of a feeling of embarrassment or shame or I should 257 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: have known, or you know. I pride myself on my intuition. 258 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: Where was my intuition? Actually? I think my intuition was 259 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: alive and well and working very hard to try to 260 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: understand something that I couldn't understand. I just couldn't. We believe, 261 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: and we construct narratives around what we know and what 262 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: we're told as children, and and the trust that we 263 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: place in the adults around us, and it kind of 264 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: forms our reality. I think I was most bothered by 265 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: the idea that I think my mom and dad thought 266 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: that they could get away with it, And I mean 267 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: that that sounds so vicious that like a boy, they 268 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: just crime. I don't know that they were ever going 269 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: to tell me, and I think that is probably the 270 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: driving force of any anger I may have about the situation. 271 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: I don't know that they ever had any intention of 272 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: actually ever telling me. I have a friend who has 273 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: psychic abilities, and it's pretty sure she knows what happens 274 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: when we die. I'm sure I've lost some of you here, 275 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: and I'm a bit of a skeptic myself, so don't 276 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: shoot the messenger anyway. She told me that when we die, 277 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: we can look back and survey our lives with a 278 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: sense of distance and compassion, and we get to see 279 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: the whole thing, what we got right, what we missed, 280 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: what we just didn't see. And I remember thinking that 281 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: if this was true, if I hadn't discovered the truth 282 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: about my dad, I would have been standing there thinking, 283 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: oh my god, I missed the whole thing I was 284 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: wrong about myself. I didn't have an essential piece of information. Yeah, 285 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: that that would have been pretty bad death moment, big bummer, 286 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: except apparently you don't feel like it's a bump because 287 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: you're dead. So Steve has his big confrontation with Don 288 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: and Mary Jane. He doesn't talk to anybody else about 289 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 1: his secret, not for a very long time. But as 290 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: he moves through his twenties, an aimlessness sets in. The 291 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: kid who was a star in high school barely scrapes 292 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: through college, and it's kind of flailing. He doesn't have 293 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: a passion for work. His relationships are pretty unsatisfying. But 294 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: he doesn't know what's wrong. He doesn't know why he's 295 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: so miserable. I got up in the morning, I had jobs, 296 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: I did all the things you do, but I was depressed. 297 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: I sometimes I couldn't get out of bed for a 298 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 1: whole day. I'm just play there. I did really poorly 299 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: in college. Everything how I was in high school was 300 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: not the way I was as the sort of young adult, 301 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: drinking too much, all the stuff that goes along with 302 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: something like this happening to you. But I never put 303 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: two and two together. I wasn't like, oh, I I'm 304 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: sad and depressed because the secret was kept for me 305 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: my entire childhood. I never made that connection. And I 306 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: went to various counselors and psychologists and so forth, and 307 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: of course it would come out that I would tell 308 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: this story, but I still can never make that direct connection. 309 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: I just sort of thought, oh, well, I'm lazy, or 310 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: I've not found the right thing to do in my life, 311 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: or whatever it might be. And that was kind of 312 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: my twenties. For the most part, just didn't feel good. 313 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: I didn't feel close to my family, I didn't feel 314 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: the relationships that I would have with people were always 315 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: going to be on my terms. That you really do 316 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: develop this lack of trust, even though you can't articulate that. 317 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: It's just a feeling of I don't know about this person. 318 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: Just keep you at arms length for a while. I 319 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: don't know what's going on with you. I don't want 320 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: you in my space. And then you do this stupid 321 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 1: thing where you use I did this a lot in 322 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: my twenties that I look back on now, and then 323 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: you use this story as like a little weapon or 324 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: a way of getting people to think that you're interesting 325 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: or damaged in some way. And I would deploy it 326 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: at times that I thought would maybe that would impress 327 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: this girl or maybe you know, I would really wow 328 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: this party crowd with my story of my horrible and 329 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: of course I would embellish it. But even then, I 330 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: think I was trying to figure out, what does this 331 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 1: story mean to me? Really? What is it all about? Really? 332 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: And I think that's what I was playing with in 333 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: those early days, and it moved forward to something more concrete, 334 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: and as I discovered journalism, and I just discovered that 335 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: there is a real power in crafting a truthful narrative, 336 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: or at least as truthful as you can make it 337 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: and your emotional truth. Steve eventually discovers his calling as 338 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: a journalist and finds success working for NPR and various 339 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: other news organizations. He digs for the truth in other 340 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: people's stories, and eventually he begins to think he might 341 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: want to make a film to dig for the truth 342 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: of his own family story and in order to tell 343 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: the truth in three and sixty degrees, not only Steve's 344 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: own story, but seen through the lens of everyone in 345 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: his family. He begins a process of interviewing his brother's sisters, Mary, Jane, Don, 346 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: his old friends, the ones who broke the news to him. 347 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: To begin with, being the documentarian allows Steve a little 348 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: bit of distance, and also this is so important permission, 349 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: his camera and recording equipment a buffer between himself and 350 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: his own pain. Then I started to see like there 351 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: was a way to do this, tell the story that 352 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: would be fair to everyone, not just to me, but 353 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: to my family. I learned that there was a way 354 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: to let people have their say about what had happened 355 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: without any accusations and without people feeling like they were 356 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: put on trial, and that's ultimately where I got to. 357 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: But it was incredibly long period of time, and even 358 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: the making of the film was long. You know. I 359 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: started in two thousand three. I don't think I finished 360 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: in two two eleven. So it was a very very 361 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: hard pulling thread very slowly. Do you think that in 362 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: part was because as you could sort of only really 363 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: examine it a little bit at a time. Yeah. I 364 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: couldn't have done it all at once. It would have 365 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: killed me. Every time I did an interview with a 366 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 1: family member, it would take this little chunk out of me. 367 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: Then I just steal myself for the next one. And 368 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: also you know, the issues of job and money and 369 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: all those sorts of things. But it was just every 370 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: interview was like a little slice of energy. Decision making, 371 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: all those things were just sort of taken away and 372 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 1: it took a while. Then you do all the interviews 373 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: for it, and then you have the editing process, which 374 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: was absolutely torturous for me to watch myself, to see 375 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 1: the things I was saying, to acting the way I 376 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: was acting. I had a great editor who taught me 377 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: to be honest in those moments and don't ask to 378 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: have things cut out that are gonna be truthful and honest, 379 00:21:50,320 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break. And then there's Joanie. 380 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: The palpable awkwardness and discomfort during the moments Joanie is 381 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: on screen made me squirm as Steve and Joanie talk 382 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: that awkwardness sometimes turns to anger. There's such a feeling 383 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: of disconnect between them. She doesn't seem like his mother, 384 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: she doesn't seem like his sister. A glass of wine 385 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: is always nearby whenever she's on camera, and she seems 386 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: a bit lost, baffled at the turns her life is taken. 387 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: Try as I might, I didn't really feel a bond 388 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: between them. Steve does, however, seem like a son during 389 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: his moments with Mary, Jane and Don because he was 390 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: their son for eighteen formative years. It's not like his 391 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: discovery automatically turned them into grandparents in his psyche, nor 392 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: did it turn Joanie into his mother, because that's just 393 00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: not how it works. In the film, you in review 394 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: Joanie a number of times, and those are some of 395 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: the most painful scenes to me. They were in the film, 396 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: and there's a moment in which I guess it's in 397 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: anticipation of an upcoming wedding and your wedding and whether 398 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: she's going to come or not come, and who she 399 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: will be at your wedding, how do you explain her? 400 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: What is her role? And you say to her, you know, 401 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I'm ever gonna be able to 402 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: call you mother? Right right? Yeah, So could you talk 403 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: a little bit about that, about that moment. Yeah, there's 404 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: a preface to that. I get the film has been 405 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 1: around for a while, and it's been on all the 406 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 1: places where you can get to see movies, and it's 407 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: been a festivals and so forth, and I've had a 408 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: lot of great reactions, but I've had a lot of 409 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 1: negative reactions to how I am in the film, toward 410 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: Joanie in particular. And this is one moment that people 411 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: talk about. You softened it, actually, I actually say it, 412 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: how would you feel if I never called you mom? 413 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: Which is that's a really pointed question and kind of 414 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: a jerky way to saying it. But of course is 415 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: the moment in the film, and no one knows all 416 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: the backstory to that moment. Necessarily they see what they 417 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: see in the movie, and there's only so much you 418 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,239 Speaker 1: can include and and all the feelings and emotions that 419 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: came up to that moment. I feel so bad about 420 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: the whole thing, and I've I've always thinking I'm gonna 421 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: ask my distributor to take the movie down off of 422 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: all the places and nobody can see it ever again. 423 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: But Steve, when you say you feel bad about the 424 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: whole thing, you mean you feel bad about the whole thing, 425 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: or you feel bad about the film part or or 426 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: what I feel bad about the whole thing. I feel 427 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: bad about that I ever knew. I feel bad that 428 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: I made the film. I feel embarrassed about how I 429 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: come across in the film, even though I'm also at 430 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: the same time, if you can imagine this, proud of it, 431 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: because it's an accurate journalistic depiction of me in that moment. 432 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: I was angry at times. I was kind of a 433 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 1: jerk at times. I don't often come across as that articulate. 434 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: At times, I sometimes make these leaps of logic that 435 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: don't make any sense, you know, all this stuff. But 436 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: in thinking about the conversation that we were going to have, 437 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: I had this. I mean, it's an epiphany. It really is. 438 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: It's not to put too much of a dramatic point 439 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: on it. But I had this moment of of something 440 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: that has never once occurred to me in all the 441 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: years and even all the adoption conferences that I've taken 442 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: this film too. In that moment, in that scene, the 443 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: reason I said it that way it was feeling so angry, 444 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: or it was an angry way of asking it, is 445 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: that it is hard to understand if you have not 446 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: been adopted or had a secret kept from you about 447 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: who you are. It seems to me that part of 448 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: why you would have been mad about it is it 449 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: was erasing your history. It was essentially saying those first 450 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: eighteen years where you believed what you believed, that doesn't matter. Right. 451 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: And the people who understand this actually are adoptees. When 452 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: I go to those conferences and show this film and 453 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: I always preface it with this sort of oh, I'm 454 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: a real jerk in this, sorry everybody, And at the 455 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: end they're like, what are you talking about? You are 456 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: not a jerk at all. In fact, you are acting 457 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: how anybody would act, and you deserve to be able 458 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: to act that way and you should never apologize for that. 459 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: A lot of states still have closed adoption records, although 460 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: that's changing, So you really don't have any access to 461 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: your history, your actual biological history. You have to take 462 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: on this other history that is really hard to understand 463 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: if you have not been through it. And that is 464 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: my if, if as any message I could send to 465 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: the people who say, boy, Stevie really hard on Joanie 466 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: in that movie and man, poor Janie. And I agree 467 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: she had a rough time to absolutely, but it's really 468 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: important to understand that I feel like I'm sounding angry 469 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: right now. I'm more of just emphatic about it. Is 470 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: that because I so it's brand new, I'm just coming 471 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: to This is the hardest thing for me to have 472 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: realized all these years, and that I just realized recently, 473 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: is that I actually don't owe Joanie anything. I don't 474 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: owe her relationship. I don't owe her to be called mom. 475 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: I don't owe her to act as a son to her. 476 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: I don't owe her anything because there was never any 477 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: agreement made between us or transaction made between us. We 478 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: are just two people. Do you suppose that there is 479 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: also an element to that response that that that people 480 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: have that is probably a largely unconscious response when they 481 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,959 Speaker 1: have it that the person in those circumstances is supposed 482 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: to feel grateful. In other words, absolutely, yeah, I mean 483 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: you were taken in, you were loved, Otherwise you might 484 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: have had very different circumstances. Or I mean, I don't 485 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: know whether the reason why I'm relating to this is 486 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: as someone who discovered that she was donor conceived, um, 487 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: but I know that what people feel about people who 488 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: find out that they were doing or conceived is well, 489 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: you're you're here, aren't you. I mean, you're glad you're here, 490 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: You've you've had this great life and that as if 491 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: that's supposed to check that box and then you're kind 492 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: of done with it and there's no room for other feelings, 493 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: much more complex feelings of what led to in my case, 494 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: my being born and in your case, the way that 495 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: you were raised. Oh there's yeah, I've heard that many 496 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: many times. You know, you're lucky that you weren't aborted, 497 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: You're lucky you were't abused. All true. And you know 498 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: you can be grateful and still be adamant that you 499 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: don't owe the person something beyond the gratefulness. You know, Yes, 500 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: you can have two things in your head at the 501 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: same time of like thank you for not aborting me 502 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: or abusing me. And I'm not going to call you mom, 503 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to call you mom, So let 504 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: me ask you what's your relationship out to Joanie and 505 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: in the fullness of time and in the aftermaths of 506 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: open secret coming out. So she did not like the film. 507 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: She felt that she wasn't portrayed in a positive way, 508 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: which I disagree. I think she comes across as a 509 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: very sympathetic person who went through a very difficult childhood, 510 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: had her struggles with her own identity, trying to figure out, 511 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: you know, who she wanted to be, and I think 512 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: she found it embarrassing. It's funny. Other members of the 513 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: family feel like that was an absolute accurate depiction of 514 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: her in every way. I wouldn't have released it if 515 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: I thought that it was somehow damning to her. I 516 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: think that she comes out as someone who's incredibly complicated 517 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: and has a lot to tell and a lot to show. 518 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: The movies a lot about two women, you know, my mom, 519 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: Mary Jane and Joanie and the struggles of that time 520 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: being choice is not given to them, choice is taken away, 521 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: and I felt like that was portrayed fairly accurately for them. 522 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: Do you feel like this whole experience has very much 523 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: affected your interest in not keeping secrets in your family 524 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: and in your family that you've made with with your 525 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: wife and your kids. Yeah, any secret that has an 526 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: effect on someone else, I am very much against. You know, 527 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: there are lots of secrets, their secrets that you keep 528 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: for yourself that only affect you, like that you eat 529 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: too many cupcakes at night when nobody's looking or whatever. 530 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: But then there's the secrets that of people's identity or 531 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: any secret that I think can obstruct someone's progress in 532 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: the world. I think is a bad secret and it 533 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: needs to be told. I feel very very strongly about that. 534 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: And I would never keep a secret from my kids 535 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: if it was something that if they knew the truth, 536 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: would make their life better or not even better, it 537 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: would just move their life forward. Yeah, exactly. I mean, 538 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,959 Speaker 1: I think that we are formed by what we don't know, 539 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: at least as much, if not more, then by what 540 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: we do. And we're when we're formed by what we 541 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: don't know, it's going is gonna sound like a word puzzle, 542 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: but we we were being formed by something we don't 543 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: even know we're being formed by. And so there's something 544 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: that's very dangerous about that because it's so it's so 545 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: unavailable and so unconscious. Yeah, I always think my my 546 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: hypothetical and all this is imagine if my parents had 547 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: set me down at the age of five and six, 548 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: instead of saying adopted, said hey, listen, you should know 549 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: we're your grandparents and we love you very much. And 550 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: Joanie is your mom and she had you and she 551 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: couldn't take care of you because she wasn't ready to 552 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: do that. But they're part of this family, and you know, 553 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: we're going to raise you as our grandson and our 554 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: son if you want us to, and you know, welcome. 555 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: You know what an amazing moment that now I get it. 556 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: This is Kansas, this is Catholic. People were like, oh 557 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: my god, Janie, I can't believe she's pregnant. What kind 558 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,719 Speaker 1: of awful person is she? You know, I don't know 559 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: the social mores of the time, but that would have 560 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: been a really amazing thing to have happened if it 561 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: would have happened that way. Of course, this story would 562 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: not be complete without talking about Henry. Who's Henry, you 563 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: might ask, Steve's biological father. I remember there was a 564 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: very brief conversation that I had with Joni at the 565 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: age I was twenty, I think I was in school, 566 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: and she goes, I have Henry's phone number. I've had 567 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: it for a long time. Um. She told me that 568 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: in that moment that she had been sending photos to him. 569 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: She had an address and a phone number, so he 570 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: knew I existed, but she didn't know anything about him. 571 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: She's like, I don't know. He has a thick accent, 572 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: and I don't even know where he's from. I think 573 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: she you know, she told me very stories about him 574 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: being from Romania and from Italy and all kinds of stuff, 575 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: but she never knew anything really about him. But she 576 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: had a name and a phone number, and he was 577 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: living in Los Angeles, which is where she met him 578 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: when she ran away from home that summer and got pregnant. 579 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: And so I took that number from her and I 580 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: held onto it for a while, and then one night 581 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: I called it and he answered the phone, and it 582 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: was the thickest accent I had ever heard in my life. 583 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: Like it was, this is a kid from Kansas who 584 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: had never been really anywhere, and uh, it was this 585 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: thick European accent. And you know, I'll tell you. What. 586 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: If there's anything that I'm embarrassed about, it's about how 587 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: just dumb I was in those moments where I had 588 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: this man on the phone and I didn't know what 589 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: to ask him. I just froze. And all he said 590 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: to me was I don't have anything for you. And 591 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if he meant that monetarily or emotionally 592 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: or what it was, but I was so panicked. I mean, 593 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: it sounds like the thing you described earlier about your 594 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: heart's racing and you're gripping the phone. I didn't know 595 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: what to do. I was still a kid in that way, 596 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: and so I just was like, I don't want anything 597 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: from you, thank you for talking to me, goodbye, and 598 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: I hung up and that was it. I never talked 599 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: to him again. He died, um, you know, five or 600 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: six years later. Eventually I was able to track down 601 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: a daughter that he had from his marriage, who is 602 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: the same age as Joanie, by the way, and I 603 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: wrote her a letter and we connected that way, and 604 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,879 Speaker 1: that's where I found out who he was, where he's from. 605 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: He was born and raised in Poland, was a Holocaust survivor. 606 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: All these pieces sort of started to come together and 607 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: just in case you're thinking that this story can't get 608 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: even more complex than it already is, it turns out 609 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 1: that Steve has a biological half sister that his father, Henry, 610 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: was in fact married when he got Jonie pregnant. I 611 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: talked to her recently. She had just gone on a 612 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: trip to Poland with her son, one of her sons, 613 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: who was at my wedding. By the way, I've become 614 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: sort of friendly with him. He was very interested in 615 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: this whole story. He's my same a I'm his uncle technically, 616 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: but we're the same age. But she had gone to 617 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: Poland to go visit Henry's the town where he lived 618 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: and where he was rounded up, and all those sorts 619 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: of things, and she wanted to talk to me about it. 620 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: So we had a phone call, and you know, we 621 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: talk about it. It's funny, and she'll refer to Henry 622 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: as our father, which I think is something she obviously 623 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: does not have to do but does. And then she 624 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: had said, I can't wait to meet your boys. You know, 625 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: they're my they're my only nephews. It's funny. I see, 626 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: he was a member of my family, but with no 627 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: name attached, no signifier, attached to it. No, like sister, brother, cousin. 628 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: She's just is somebody who's part of my world. Sure, 629 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: I mean it's such it's such a depiction of modern family, 630 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: the families that we make, the families that we end 631 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 1: up with. We're so interested in defining with labels who 632 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: we are to each other. Right, Oh yeah, I just 633 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: see her as this person who's in my life and 634 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: who is a family member. But it would be very 635 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: strange to call her sister, and you know what, she's 636 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: ever asked me to. As Steve and I talk, I 637 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: find myself thinking a lot about closure. After all, he's 638 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: known the truth since he was eighteen. He's now forty nine, 639 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: He's made a film about it, he has a wife, kids, 640 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: a great career, a life he built in Washington, d C. 641 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: Is there a point when a family secret like this 642 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: begins to lose its power? Is closure a real thing? 643 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: Does Steve believe in it? No? I don't. Actually, I 644 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: think that I sort of visualize it. The secret part 645 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: of it, or the grappling with it, is like a bumpy, 646 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: pothole filled road. It's a bumpy gravel road with twists 647 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: and turns. And then when you come to sort of 648 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: grips with it. The road smooths out, but it keeps going, 649 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: so there's not an ending, and that road could become 650 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: bumpy again. So it's a traveling metaphor. You know, you're 651 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: the closure is when you die. That's the end, that 652 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,439 Speaker 1: it's closure. But I'm always going to be grappling with 653 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: all of this. Right now, I'm on a smooth road 654 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: with it, and I love Joanie. I care about what 655 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: happens to her. I can't forge a mother's son relationship 656 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: with her that will never happen. It doesn't mean that 657 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: I don't have feelings for her or respect her and 658 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: care about how she's doing. But there was a time 659 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: where that road was awfully bumpy and not good to 660 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: travel on, and now it feels like it's a nice, steady, 661 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: smooth ride. And my goal is for it to just 662 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: continue that way on my own terms. Now, she may 663 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: she may say the opposite. She'd be like, oh, no, 664 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,479 Speaker 1: the road is still really bumpy and it's not good. 665 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: I'll say, well, that's that's your perception of it. Mine 666 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: is this. I'd like to thank my guest Steve Lichtie 667 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: for sharing his story with us today. For more about 668 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: his documentary, visit Open Secret film dot com. Family Secrets 669 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: is an I Heeart media production. Dylan Fagan is the 670 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: supervising producer, Andrew Howard and Tristan McNeil are the audio engineers, 671 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: and Julie Douglas is the executive producer. If you have 672 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: a family secret you'd like to share, you can get 673 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: in touch with us at listener mail at Family Secrets 674 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: podcast dot com, and you can also find us on 675 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 1: Instagram at Danny Ryder, and Facebook at Family Secrets Pod 676 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: and Twitter at Fam Secrets Pod. That's fam Secrets Pod. 677 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: For more about my book, Inheritance, visit Danny Shapiro dot com.