1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here. The episode you're about to 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: hear was recorded late last night at like two in 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: the morning, due to the time difference between me and Joe, 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: who is based in Armenia. As you may have heard, 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: Azerbijan launched another attack on the independent Armenian majority region 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: of Artsak, which is in territory that Azerbaijan claims. Since 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: we recorded this a couple hours after the Artzok defense 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: forces have surrendered, there's currently negotiations and something that's being 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: called a ceasefire, although there continue to be reports of 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:41,639 Speaker 1: shelling and other violent acts by the Azeri military. It's 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: kind of unclear what is going to happen. Tens of 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: thousands of frightened Armenians have crowded the airport out of Artzok. 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: Pictures are pretty stunning and sobering, out of fears that 14 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: a genocide will be instituted against the Armenian populace in 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: that area. The episode You're about to hear is Joe 16 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: and I kind of talking earlier in the invasion, pretty 17 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: soon after it happened, going over some of the history, 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: what's going on now, fears for the future, so I 19 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: thought it was still valuable stuff, but I wanted to 20 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: let you know the situation has advanced since we recorded this, 21 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: as is often the case when you're talking about, you know, 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: unfolding events. So thank you. Hey, everyone, welcome to It 23 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: could happen here, a podcast about it happening here, And 24 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: unfortunately for our guest today it is again this is 25 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: not the first time that it has been happening where 26 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: this person happens to live. Joe Kasabian, Joe, Hey, how 27 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: you doing, Buddy? 28 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: Hey, Robert, it's I would like to say, it's good 29 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: to be back. But you know this tends to happen 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: a lot. 31 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: We did you know in between the first time you 32 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: were or the last time you were on this show 33 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: and now you know, we had a surprise meeting in 34 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: Dublin that was a lovely time. 35 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 2: That is true. 36 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: That is true. Yeah, And now Joe, you uh, you 37 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: are a podcaster, a genocide expert and academic studying that 38 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: and also you know, the host of the Lions Led 39 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: by Donkeys podcast, which is a lovely podcast. And you 40 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: are based out of Yerevan, which is the capital of Armenia, 41 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: which is a country that is not yet being invaded 42 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: but is also in in another way, is being invaded 43 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: right now, right, Like it's a it's a complicated situation, basically, 44 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: the gist of it is, folks, if you're if you're 45 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: kind of tuning in, there is a there are a 46 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: number of different like little republics in in the Caucasus region, 47 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: and one of the like over the course of the 48 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: last like I don't know, a couple of thousand years, 49 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: there have been a lot of Armenian people in this 50 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: area that we call the Caucuses, right, and you know, 51 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: you have your you know, a couple of thousand years 52 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: of history, you know, around the eleventh century, you get, 53 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, some claims start being made to this area 54 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: in what is now called Karbak Artsak, And yeah, now 55 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: you've got this kind of area that is an Armenian 56 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: majority region where the surrounding Azeri people argue that it 57 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: is their land, their territory, that they should be allowed 58 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: to take it. And there have been a series of 59 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: wars that have been fighting that have been going on 60 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: over this area since the fall of the Soviet Union. 61 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: And now as we are talking right now, Joe, you 62 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: and I, the Azari military has just launched a new 63 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: invasion with the prezum goal with the stated goal really 64 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: of retaking this entire region and potentially the goal of 65 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: engaging the Armenian military in a wider formal way. Right, 66 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: that's at least the way the Azaris have discussed it. 67 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: The Armenian military, the Armenian government has said like, this 68 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: is not you know, Artsak is not Armenia. This is 69 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: not like our troops and stuff on the ground here. 70 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: But the Azaris have basically just said, like, we are 71 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: disabling Armenian military equipment. 72 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's you know, it goes back to December 73 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: of last year. I mean, obviously this goes back even 74 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 2: before then. But if you start talking about, you know, history, 75 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 2: people's eyes are going to glaze over. Yeah, this the 76 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 2: the war that was fought in twenty twenty obviously Azerbaijan one. 77 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 2: And ever since then, Carlok or Artsak has been cut 78 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: off from the Republic of Armenia through this area called 79 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 2: the Lashing Corridor. And yeah, according to the treaty it 80 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 2: was supposed to be maintained by Russian peacekeepers, but it 81 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: never was, and specifically, since December of twenty twenty two, 82 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: Karbak has been completely cut off by the Azarian Russian 83 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: military and is effectively being starved out. So it's been, 84 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 2: you know, quite a long time, and we knew, like 85 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: everybody knew the war was going to come again, but 86 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 2: we kind of assumed it was gonna be in like 87 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five when the Russians are mandated to leave, 88 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 2: but sort yesterday, you know, it already yesterday. 89 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: It seems like, I think it like the azeris invaded 90 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: right after about twenty three tons something like that of 91 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: essentially like bread was brought into like across the latchin corridor, 92 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: right like so literally like this, yeah, exactly, yeah, this 93 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: tiny amount of food makes it into this starving populace 94 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: and then the next day invasion starts. 95 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: Since December, they've done as much as they possibly could 96 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: to turn Karbak into what is effectively an open air 97 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: concert camp and the military operation. Now, what it. 98 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: Is it to me is it's a. 99 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: Continuation of the twenty twenty war because they couldn't conquer 100 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 2: Sepanicrits in twenty twenty, which is the capital of Karabak, 101 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: due to external pressures as well as military capacity. Because 102 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 2: during twenty twenty, the Republic of Armenia, despite not legally 103 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 2: directly fighting the war was of course helping Karabak with volunteers, soldiers, 104 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 2: military supplies, everything. Sure this time they can't. It's completely 105 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: cut off, and that this is not a war of 106 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 2: any kind of near peer powers. The local Karabak defense force, 107 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: called the Artsak Defense Army, is a self defense group. 108 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: They have some heavy equipment, but the vast majority of 109 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 2: it was destroyed twenty twenty. So this is, you know, 110 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: effectively like a local gun club trying to fight. 111 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, this army, this is more or less a militia 112 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: going up against I mean, like the Azaris. One of 113 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: their major suppliers of arms is Israel, Israel and Turkey. Yeah, yeah, Russia, Russia, 114 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: Russia as well too. Yeah, and Russia is selling obviously 115 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: to our media as well. 116 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 2: They actually aren't that we've we've found out I believe 117 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: last year. The government isn't the best at transparency, I 118 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: feel like is the best way to word that. And 119 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: we have been paying Russia for weapons since twenty twenty. 120 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: They have not delivered a single bullet since the war. 121 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: Sorry I should have said Armenia is paying Russia for weapons. 122 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we're being fucked by Russia. But yeah, it's 123 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: as far as the state of Asari goals are, they're 124 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: they're very different. In twenty twenty, when the war ended, 125 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 2: they could frame it as a victory because they took 126 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: over all these areas that they lost during the first war. 127 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: Months about an area where about one hundred and twenty 128 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,119 Speaker 2: thousand people live in Stepanikert and the general outskirts there. 129 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 2: But this time the messaging is much different. It is, 130 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: you know, the government must collapse. You know, they only 131 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 2: going tod like this is going quote unquote until the end, 132 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 2: until they see a white flag from stepanic Cart. So 133 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: this is because now if they don't do that, they 134 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 2: can't spin it as a victory, right right, And since December, 135 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: the Lashing corridor has been shut for everybody. People couldn't leave, 136 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: people who live in Karbak, who are in Armenia for 137 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 2: like school or whatever, couldn't go back. And now suddenly 138 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: yesterday when the war started again, they are saying there's 139 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 2: a humanitarian corridor through the through Lachen. So the goals 140 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 2: are very very clear here and we know from their 141 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 2: conduct in twenty twenty government propaganda, just the general attitude 142 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 2: of the Azari government towards Armenians, which is they don't 143 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 2: they can't exist here, like this is a liquidation of 144 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: the open air concentration camp that they've created. 145 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: So, I mean, Joe, first off, I guess what I 146 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: want to ask is, like, what what is it like 147 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: in Yerevan right now? Because you know you are you 148 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: are not far from from where the fighting is continuing 149 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: at the moment, but obviously you are. Armenia is not 150 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: technically involved at this point, right Like, that's at least 151 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: according to the claims of the Armenian government. These aeries 152 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: alleged that they are striking Armenian military targets right now. 153 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: What is it like in Yerevan right now? 154 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 2: I think everybody is. I mean, you can see it 155 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: on everybody's faces, like they just they want information, They 156 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: want to know what's going to happen next. There's a 157 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: lot of protests yesterday and into the night because the 158 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: Prime Minister came out and said, like, you know, we're 159 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 2: not going to get involved, and he's not exactly very popular, 160 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 2: despite the fact he kind of is our best option 161 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: at the moment, So there's a lot of you know, 162 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 2: rightful anger towards him, towards Russia towards the EU. You know, 163 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 2: you name it. Everybody's mad at everybody. So there was 164 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: different protests yesterday. There was you know, fuck Russia protest. 165 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 2: There was fuck Nikol Pashnian, who's our prime minister protest. 166 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: There was a combination of the two protests. They all 167 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: kind of met in the middle. There was some fighting 168 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: with the police. I heard reports that someone quite a 169 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 2: few people tried to break into government buildings. That all 170 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: seemed to have cooled off by that because I went 171 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,719 Speaker 2: down to the area where there was protesting and I 172 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: didn't see any of that, but it seemed to have 173 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: also started up again after I left. 174 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: But again, it's. 175 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 2: Only day one. People's anger is only going to get 176 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 2: worse as a situation in Karabak gets worse. Yeah, you know, 177 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: the fall of Karabak and Stapana karat If, And when 178 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 2: that occurs, I have a hard time believing that the 179 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 2: current government here in. 180 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: Armenia will survive. 181 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: They'll either resign before stouts, you know, an unfortunate third 182 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: option might happen, especially with the messaging coming from Russia 183 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: where they're blaming Armenia and specifically the Prime Minister for 184 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: all of this. Because since September of last year, Armenia 185 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 2: has been doing decent diplomacy in turning towards the West. 186 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: There's American soldiers in the Republic of Armenia right now 187 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 2: for training. We've sent supplies to Ukraine. We've all but 188 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 2: left the CSTO, which is like Russia's shitty version of NATO. 189 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is not very functional, right. 190 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, I mean this is a fact. I mean, 191 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: this is a green lit punitive expedition on Russia's behalf effect. 192 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is you know a couple of things. 193 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: So like obviously the way in which the paper on 194 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: paper alliances here kind of like chart out is not 195 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: friendly to the sort of like sound bite media of 196 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: our day, right because Armenia on paper, Armenia's like big 197 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: supporter has been Russia recently, right. 198 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 2: As well as Azerbaijan, like as well, before Russia invaded Ukraine, 199 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 2: they like cemented an alliance. But you know, because Azerbaijan 200 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 2: has been very overt, I guess you could say, and 201 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: their support for Ukraine, giving them money and you know, 202 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 2: supplies here and they're non military supplies but humanitarian supplies. Yeah, 203 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 2: this gets spun in the brain dead infosphere as it 204 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: being like another Russian ally, that being Armenia is being invaded, 205 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 2: or you know, people equate Klara Bak to Crimea and 206 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 2: Ukraine's war goals, and since Azerbaijan is a pr ally 207 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: of Ukraine and supplying the E with gas and supplying 208 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 2: E with Russian gas as well, they gets spun as 209 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: like people are cheering for Azerbaijan, which is is absolutely 210 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: baffling to me. Like it I wish I could say 211 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: I'm confused or surprised, but like when you treat war 212 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: like it's a team sport you want to play on 213 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 2: your favorite football jersey or whatever. Yeah, this is how 214 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: it goes. When you know, Karabak declared independence from Azerbaijan 215 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: during that the Azeri Soviet Socialist Republic when that was 216 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 2: legal to do. And the state that they have created 217 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: is one of the most free in the region, whereas Azerbaijan, 218 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 2: according to like the Freedom Index, is one point above 219 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: the Taliban controlled Afghan state at the moment. Yeah, so 220 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 2: like this this is not a play. This is not 221 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: like a liberation. A dictator cannot be a liberator. 222 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: No, and a lot of what is happening and why 223 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: a zerbra Jan is engaging in aggression right now is 224 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: due to what's been happening to like the price of 225 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: oil and like what that's done to the Azari economy. Right, 226 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: Like this is a like I mean, it's it's it's 227 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: a pretty standard page in the the authoritarian playbook, right 228 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 1: of course. 229 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: I mean they're a classic fascist dictatorship and so far 230 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: as you know, every problem in the state that they have, 231 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: of which they have many, because it's effectively a kleptocracy 232 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: built around a Petro Petro dictatorship, is caused by Armenians. 233 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 2: They're you know, every single anti Asari piece that gets 234 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: published in any media, and you can use the term 235 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: anti Asari to mean like literally anything is funded by 236 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: the like the Armenian lobbying group, which I mean any 237 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 2: Jewish conspiracy theory that we all know and hear about constantly, 238 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: and Azuerbaijan. You just replace Jewish people with Armenians, and 239 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: it's a it's functionally the same thing. So you know, 240 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: we're this global superpower with our tendrils and everything thing, 241 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: but also we're weak and pitiful and need to be destroyed. 242 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: It's it's same kind of messaging that we're used to 243 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 2: hearing for like classic fascist propaganda, and you know that 244 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: as far as like why they're doing it now is 245 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:20,119 Speaker 2: because they've so ensconced themselves in the European good graces 246 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: and over the last little bit they know nobody could 247 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: nobody's going to stop them. The EU literally can't, and 248 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: the United States, I mean, they're an outside player when 249 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: it comes to European politics, at least internal politics, and 250 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 2: they are only loosely connected to Azerbaijehan. They do some 251 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: military funding, but it's mostly to do with's like these 252 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: weird ghosts of the early global War on Terror where 253 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 2: they're looking for friendly Muslim powers that would act as 254 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: counter terror forces. But the Azerbaijan secular this war has 255 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 2: nothing to do with us being Christian or them being Muslim. Yea, 256 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: though it does tend to be free frame that way 257 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 2: by the worst people imaginable. 258 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's slots conveniently for a lot of people into 259 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: those But like this is I mean, again as I tried, 260 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: and you know, this is what we're kind of like 261 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: throwing this together in media res but like this is 262 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: we're talking about, like this is the result of a 263 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: very long period of conflict and movement of peoples in 264 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: a region where they have been for thousands and thousands 265 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: of years, right, Like that's like, it's not. 266 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 2: I would say the current conflict is mostly rooted in 267 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: about the last thirty thirty five years, I mean the 268 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 2: ancient the ancient history gets thrown around a lot by 269 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 2: like propagandists, But this is a direct result of the 270 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 2: Soviet Union's policies. It has nothing to do with like, 271 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: you know, the thirteen hundreds. 272 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: Would you take it back though, to like like World 273 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: War One? Right where you've got You've got this like 274 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: very brief period where like Azerbaijan and Armenia and Georgia 275 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: all attempt to have this like almost little like Caucasus 276 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: you win, or EU of their own right, and then 277 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: they all get like gobbled up, you know, over the 278 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: course of the end of the war by by by 279 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: Turkey and then by Russia. Like it's this uh, like 280 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: that's kind of where it all results from. Right, That's 281 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: at least that's my understanding of it. 282 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 3: Uh. 283 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 2: If you want to go back that far, it has 284 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: more of a result of early Soviet policy and specifically 285 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 2: Joseph Stalin before he took over the Soviet Union. He 286 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 2: was ahead of like the the Office of like minorities. Effectively, 287 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: Yeah he he's a Georgian. 288 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: Yeah he's it's so is Barria. 289 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: And he he redrew the borders to include what is 290 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 2: today Karabak within the borders of what effectively would become 291 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: the Azaria Soviet Socialist Republic. And during the entire period 292 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 2: of the Soviet Union, which you know, a lot of 293 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 2: people like to frame as the there's no problems in 294 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union control these areas, which is magical thinking. 295 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: There were protests by the Armenian populace, right. 296 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 2: There was a lot of protests during the eighties. You 297 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 2: have what's called the Karabak movement wanted either a Karabak 298 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 2: to become its own Soviet Socialist Republic or b to 299 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 2: be given to the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic and away 300 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 2: from these areas. And failing that, they declared independence, which 301 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 2: was within their rights under the Soviet constitution, which did exist, 302 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 2: I mean, it was largely fluid and completely ignored as 303 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 2: we see today, and that's what that triggered a lot 304 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: of different programs between Azaris against the Armenian population. Within 305 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 2: Azerbaijan and Armenians did the same thing here as well, 306 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: but that started the First War, which ended with Armenia 307 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 2: winning and Artsak becoming a de facto independent republic not 308 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 2: recognized by anybody to include Armenia. 309 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: And it's I mean, it becomes at that point kind 310 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 1: of one of a series of sort of little frozen wars. 311 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: During this kind of like early nineties period where the 312 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: US was there was this there was some belief that 313 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: the US would act if like these conflicts got out 314 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: of hand. That was like often proved wrong, right, Like 315 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,479 Speaker 1: the best comparison is effectively Kosovo. The only difference is 316 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: that because of geopolitics, you're getting involved in this war, 317 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: whether it be in the nineties, in twenty twenty or today, 318 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: is it's not geopolitically advantageous, Like telling Azerbaijan to go 319 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: fuck themselves by supporting art soccer Armenians doesn't help anybody geopolitically. 320 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: If it was Russia invading US, it would be raining 321 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: weapons from the West, But geopolitically doesn't benefit anybody to 322 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: support us. And you know, like there's this concept of 323 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 1: like ethics and morals from superpowers, whether it be you know, 324 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: the bastion of democracy in the United States, or this 325 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: concept of European ethics and morals in the EU, Like, 326 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: that's all propaganda of aprior where it's not real. If 327 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: your country is being helped by any of these countries, 328 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 1: it's because it benefits the countries that are helping you geopolitically. 329 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: It's not because of they they support whatever it is 330 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: that you're doing, you know that, And because the Republic 331 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: of Armenia itself is kind of in the situation as well. 332 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: But the people of art SoC are certainly in this situation. 333 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: And so like right now, I mean honestly, like what 334 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: what is there to do? But watch right like, is 335 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: there is there? Do you have any kind of like 336 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: hope for sort of positive productive action at this point 337 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: or are we kind of stuck in this We're going 338 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: to see what the next chapter of this conflict looks like, 339 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, as it kind of rolls out here. 340 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: Well, there's two options, really stop it through military force 341 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 2: or let the largest genocide of the twenty first century 342 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 2: go unimpeded. Right because the reason why our Prime Minister 343 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: said that the Republic of Armenia is not going to 344 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 2: get involved is because it literally cannot. You know, we 345 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 2: have Turkey on one border that will almost certainly be 346 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 2: involved if we do. These areas also have guns pointed 347 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 2: at our southern border, which they have said for years 348 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: now they want to conquer. The Armenian military is not 349 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 2: a superpower by any stretch of the imagination, and since 350 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: we are not connected to Artsock in any feasible way, 351 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: it would require a massive counter offensive to just relieve 352 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: Stapanak Heart from the current siege. Right There's a reason 353 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 2: why it didn't happen when they're being starved. So Armenia 354 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 2: lacks the ability to stop this. However, there's multiple countries 355 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: in the world, mostly France in the United States, that 356 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 2: could end this in five seconds if they truly wanted to. 357 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned at the start that there are US 358 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: troops who are in Armenia right now, and I'm my 359 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: thoughts are drawn back to in twenty nineteen when Turkey 360 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: carried out an expanded invasion of some of the regions 361 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: in northeast Syria that composed Rejava, and you know US 362 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: peacekeepers pulled out previous to that. Now, the US troops 363 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: who were in Armenia were training that were not there 364 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: as peacekeepers. 365 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 2: But right have they have no mandate to do anything, 366 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: and there's only like two hundred of them from some 367 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: national Guard unit. It's not like it's a you know, 368 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: a brigade combat team, and pressure is whatever you want 369 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: to call them are not simply not going to happen. 370 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 2: The European Union is not going to sanction Azerbaijan. They 371 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 2: rely on their oil and Azerbaijan has only become more 372 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: powerful in this petro diplomacy since Russia invaded Ukraine. The 373 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: United States has no functional sanctioning powers over Azerbaijan that 374 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 2: could really affect them. And not to mention, as we've 375 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 2: seen since the Russian invasion of Ukraine is sanctions don't 376 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: stop wars. 377 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, now, I mean they never had. Like again, this 378 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: is something that left is supposed to know right after, 379 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: like what happened with Iraq and the nineties, but like 380 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: they don't, they don't do anything Like no, of course. 381 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 2: Like if the only thing that stops a genocide is 382 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: military force, and there's never been a genocide that has 383 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 2: not ended from military from one actor or another. 384 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,239 Speaker 1: I might push even a little bit to say that 385 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: like one thing that in this case I think could 386 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: potentially at least reduce the risk of certain kinds of genocide. 387 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: Is like keeping US troops in the area, not even 388 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: as like a viable combat force, but as a like 389 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: all right, a zebra jen if you if you are 390 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: going to like disrupt the territorial integrity of the actual 391 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 1: Armenian state, then you know, we've got people who are 392 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: in country and and so you'll have to you'll have 393 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: to kill them, you know. 394 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: That's That's somethings that probable have been arguing for a 395 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 2: long time now, not necessarily Americans exactly, but some kind 396 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 2: of international peacekeeping mission, because we all knew that what 397 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 2: Russia was doing, like this war benefits them as the 398 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 2: previous instability in the region benefits them because it allows 399 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: them to have their hooks into Armenia. Which is why 400 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: we're kind of worried of what happens next here because 401 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 2: if Azerbaijean does complete the conquest of stapanic Herit, which 402 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 2: unless someone gets involved, they will, they need to be 403 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 2: like I need to be practical about these things, and 404 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 2: once that happens, Russia won't have the sort of damicles 405 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: hanging over the Republic of Armenia's head anymore. So it 406 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 2: does make it does make us wonder like, and everybody 407 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 2: is very very stupid if they I think Azerbaijan stops 408 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 2: with Artsock right that in September of last year when 409 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 2: I was on your show, they were invading the Republic 410 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 2: of Armenia. They were not invading Karabaker Arts. They were 411 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 2: invading the Republic of Armenia. And their stated goals have 412 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: not changed. The only thing that would happen is that 413 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: this thorn in their side over the last thirty years 414 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 2: would not be there anymore. They would have no impediments 415 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 2: at all within what is considered their own borders. They 416 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 2: could focus everything on the Republic of Armenia. So people 417 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 2: who believe that this ends in Stapanic heart like, You'll 418 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 2: only have to go back to this time last year 419 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 2: to see that is not the case. The only thing 420 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 2: that's going to happen is maybe they'll take a little 421 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 2: bit of time. The war is coming to Armenia. This 422 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 2: massacre will come across our borders. It's only a matter 423 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: of is it one year, two years, three years that 424 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 2: that's the only thing. So without some kind of immediate intervention, 425 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 2: this slaughter will continue until they are defeated that you 426 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 2: don't negotiate with people who want to murder you. It's impossible, No, 427 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 2: you can't. And it's it's also this is a very 428 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: dangerous situation in part because like the reason why Armenia 429 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: is acting now, right, and part is because you know, 430 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 2: they have been watching and I think like keying and 431 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: like sort of editing their behavior as a result of 432 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: how the Russian campaign in Ukraine has gone. 433 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 1: Right. 434 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, they definitely see it as a way to get 435 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 2: away from Russia. I mean, like, yeah, like any small 436 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: state in Russia's sphere is doing right now, with the 437 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: exception of Georgia, who's kind of doing the opposite. 438 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they there is this, I mean, one of 439 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: the things that is really unsettling right now is there 440 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: is this There has been kind of a freeze and 441 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: a number of conflicts around the world that we have 442 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: seen thawing out for the last really the last five 443 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: six years. It's been particularly like accelerating this kind kind 444 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: of like thaw and a bunch of these old frozen conflicts. 445 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: And part of why is that there's this understanding by 446 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: a lot of these regional powers that like, well, if 447 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: I kicked the fucking door and nobody's coming. 448 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 2: After me, right, and Azerbaijean understands that to a certain extent, 449 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 2: which is why they acted the way they acted last 450 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: year in September. I mean, the CSTO is a joke, 451 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 2: but it does have a mutual defense clause, just like 452 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 2: NATO does. So an invasion of our borders should have 453 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: triggered it, and that was if people had some kind 454 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 2: of not sure if Russia could commit to other things. 455 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 2: That's meanted it for a lot of people. It's sumitted it. 456 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: For Armenia specifically, I mean, we're still technically legal members 457 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 2: of that alliance, but we have no representation in anymore. 458 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: We don't take part in trainings, we don't go to meetings. 459 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: We're functionally out of it, and we certainly will be 460 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 2: after this, I believe. But I mean the as an 461 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 2: example of how you can't really negotiate with someone with 462 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 2: this kind of ideology in so far as from this position, 463 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 2: like I'm not saying that like this only ends with 464 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,479 Speaker 2: international peacekeepers hoisting a flag over Blakhu with this kind 465 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 2: of power discrepancy that the Azaria government has said that 466 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 2: they will negotiate with the government in Stepanekert in Karabak, 467 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,239 Speaker 2: once they dissolve and lay down all their weapons. So 468 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 2: once you completely disarm and get rid of all of 469 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 2: the ways you can defend yourself from the obvious slaughter 470 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 2: that's coming your way, then we'll talk. Is that really 471 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 2: a way? Is that a way of any negotiations could 472 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: ever happen? Like being realistic, of course it's not. The 473 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 2: government of kara Bak is the only thing. The government 474 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: of Karabak and the small local self defense force is 475 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: the only negotiating like little crumb that they have because 476 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 2: it's stopping them from being murdered. And for people who 477 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: think I'm being we like I'm overreacting or something, look 478 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 2: at how they treated that. Any Armenian civilians that fell 479 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: into their hands into the twenty twenty war. They cut 480 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 2: off their ears, they cut off their fingers, they cut 481 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 2: off their noses, They fucking behead of them. It was 482 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 2: like watching Isis videos. But they're wearing multiicam and wearing 483 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 2: fast helmets and they publish them proudly on the internet. 484 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: They're not ashamed of this. You can only imagine what 485 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 2: happens when a city of one hundred thousand people falls 486 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 2: into their hands. Yeah, and that is war song in the 487 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 2: nineteen forties. 488 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: Something around like, Yeah, about one hundred, one hundred and 489 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: twenty thousand people who are who are still there. 490 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: Our media cannot solve this problem. We do not have 491 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: the power to force them to the negotiation table to 492 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: guarantee the rights of existence for people where they live. 493 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: The countries that do are now friends with the country 494 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: that is doing it, so it requires some actual diplomatic spine. 495 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 2: And the thing is, you know, the joke is, every 496 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 2: time someone is deeply concerned about something, you take a 497 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 2: drink and then you don't fucking alcoholism, but you can't say, 498 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 2: you know, we call for an immediate cease of the 499 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 2: military offensive without an or or like or what or 500 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 2: fucking what? Like what are you doing? Like? You can't 501 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 2: use strong words to stop a fucking ballistic missile. Yeah, 502 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 2: there needs to be an ore. 503 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: We're staring at about a century since we had a 504 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: series of conflicts, many of which were based around different 505 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: sort of like regional powers scapegoating and then carrying out 506 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: acts of tremendous violence against groups of people, including specifically 507 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: the Armenians. 508 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 2: Like a tale as old as time. It's being treated 509 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 2: as an anti terror operation. And you can go back 510 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: to nineteen thirteen during the GENUSI, the first genocide, and 511 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 2: it's the same exact excuse the Ottoman Empire used well. 512 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: And it's being treated you know, that's what how the 513 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: Azaris are excusing it. But over here, like when you're 514 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: talking about like US politics, about Western politics, it's it's 515 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: it's a thing that's happening over there, right, Like it's 516 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: a couple of countries that most people don't know very 517 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: much about, and like what is what is our Why 518 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: are we involved in this? And it's like, well, because 519 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: this is the thing that we said, like after one 520 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: hundred something million people died, the idea that we all 521 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: kind of came together with was, well, we should probably 522 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: stop folks from doing some of the things that led 523 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: to all of those terrible wars. 524 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 2: And we just hear people frame it as, oh, those 525 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 2: people have just been fighting forever. Yeah, no, we haven't. 526 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: It's been within my lifetime. Like I'm thirty five years old. 527 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: This war is not older than i am. 528 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like there was not always mass violence between like 529 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: the people in this region, right, Like Azaries and Armenians 530 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: have not been killing each other over art Soak for 531 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: thousands of years, right like that. 532 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 2: There's Armenians, and yeah, they used to live next to 533 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 2: one another. We're not intractable millennia long enemy. But this 534 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 2: isn't one of those conflicts that you I mean, you 535 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: shouldn't do that with any conflict because it's a scapegoat 536 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 2: to get you to stop caring and educating yourself about it. 537 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 2: But specifically in the context of this episode, certainly not 538 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 2: this conflict. This conflict involves very recent events. Yeah, and 539 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 2: it's it's tied to major geopolitical events happening in the 540 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 2: world right now that whatever country that you're living in 541 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: and listening to, your country is involved in. 542 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: And it's I mean, like the the the actual as 543 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: far as I can see that, the actual like realistic 544 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: solution here because this is not a case, right, I 545 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: don't think like shipping a bunch of fucking weapons is 546 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: a realistic thing to hope for. Like the actual realistic 547 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: case for stopping this is putting people in the country 548 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: that uh provide some sort of like barrier to a 549 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: Zeri aggression, right, Like that's like it's taking action. 550 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 2: We need the thing that we did for Kosovo yes, yes, 551 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: that's exactly what we need without without any kind of 552 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 2: negotiations or debates like that is the only thing that 553 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: will stop what is coming. It's not an if like 554 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 2: and this is coming. 555 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: And hey online left people, you know, the Azaris are 556 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: buy in Israeli arms, Like this is a situation in which, 557 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: like we're not talking about we don't need we don't 558 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: need guys kicking indoors. We literally need dudes standing around 559 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: to create a barrier by the sheer political fact of 560 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: their existence, right, That's. 561 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: All it takes. And not to mention if you're trying 562 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 2: to frame this in like an anti imperialist context or whatever, 563 00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 2: Agema Jhon is literally a fascist fucking dictatorship like the Yeah, 564 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 2: and Armenia. We have our problems, Karabak, they have their problems, 565 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 2: you know, but they're functioning representative democracies and with people 566 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 2: in land that they've lived on. It's I mean, there 567 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 2: are other people who are indigenous to that land as well, 568 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 2: but it's also theirs. It's if you want to think 569 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 2: of it in that way, which I don't really like 570 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 2: to do because it's it's dirt. But the real issue 571 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 2: here is the people. The people's lives are like, it 572 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,399 Speaker 2: doesn't fucking matter who controls to PANICRT at the end 573 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 2: of the day, if people are allowed to live there 574 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 2: and live their lives in dignity in the way that 575 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 2: they choose to live them. Yeah, but that's not going 576 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 2: to happen if the fascist dictatorship's genocidal armies come storming through, right. 577 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 2: It's it's simply impossible. And that's one of the main 578 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 2: reasons why Kak Karabak Armenians and the Armenian State as 579 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 2: well has continuously said that Karabak can't exist within the 580 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: frameworks of the Azaria Reports public because the Azari Republic 581 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 2: is demonstrously uh anti Armenian. Like for instance, if you 582 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 2: have an Armenian surname like I do, you can't even 583 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 2: go there. It doesn't even matter if you've even been 584 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 2: to this country or not. Simply existing is enough to 585 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 2: be denied entry. It's it's not a place. I mean, 586 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 2: if you want to see how they'll be treated, look 587 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 2: how they treat their own fucking people. Yeah, it's like 588 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 2: asking anyone to be liberated by the fucking forces of 589 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 2: North Korea or Saudi Arabia or something. It's obscene, it's absurd. 590 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: The only thing that like and I'm not saying I 591 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 2: support the government in Armenia as any as anybody who 592 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: knows me. I don't support any government. But the only 593 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 2: constant track they've had is we support their right for 594 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 2: self determination, as anybody should. And they voted in the 595 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 2: eighties to be on their own, not to be part 596 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 2: of Armenia, not to be part of ANDWJAN, but to 597 00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 2: be the republic of art SoC because they're the only 598 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 2: people who care about their own rights, their own degnity, 599 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 2: and their own right to existence. That's all anybody should 600 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 2: ever defend is people's rights to do that. Yeah, And 601 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 2: ever since, they've made a functioning state with free and 602 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 2: fair elections, ministries that handle these things, ministries of health, 603 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 2: ministries of defense, ministries of education. It's a functioning republic. 604 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:30,240 Speaker 2: It's not some statelet that barely functions. And the powers 605 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 2: invading it don't only mean to destroy those the separatist power, 606 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 2: they mean to destroy the people that live there. There's 607 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:49,240 Speaker 2: no room for them to exist in this country. 608 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: So, Joe, what do you expect us to see coming 609 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 1: in the next couple of days here? As you know, 610 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: we're about twenty four hours in right now to the 611 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: renewed a Zeri attack on art Sock, Like, what is 612 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: your kind of expectation for what happens next? 613 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 2: Well, the art Sock Defense Army is doing their best. Yeah, 614 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously they're fighting as hard as they possibly can. However, 615 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 2: without immediate international intervention in some capacity, I mean physical intervention, 616 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 2: a you will stop or this will occur type situation, 617 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: it's only a matter of time until it ends. 618 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I think that's. 619 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 2: And to quote the former head of Doctors without Borders, 620 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 2: you cannot stop a genocide with doctors. Yeah, there's only 621 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 2: one way to stop it. And you know, like I've 622 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 2: said a million times before, I believe before on your show, Yep, 623 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 2: the only thing that's allowing this to go on is 624 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:56,399 Speaker 2: the unwillingness of literally anybody to get involved. And there's 625 00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 2: a couple of quotes about that, Yeah, exactly, it's it's 626 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 2: not a new concept. 627 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. And gide studies. 628 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 2: As someone who studies war, studies genocide and has fought 629 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 2: in war. War is fucking awful and I don't want 630 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 2: it for anybody. I don't want a Zari kids to 631 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 2: conscripts to be fucking dying for this. I don't want 632 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 2: Armenians to be dying for this. But the only thing 633 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 2: that's going to stop it is someone who is not Armenian, 634 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 2: not as AARI, and certainly not fucking Russian, to say 635 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 2: stop or we will fucking stop it. 636 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, I think that's I think that's as uh 637 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: as good a point to close on as there is 638 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: as we're gonna find at least. Joe, do you have 639 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: anything else you wanted to kind of like bring up 640 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:47,720 Speaker 1: before we roll out here? I would? I would. 641 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 2: This is normally where I would say you could support 642 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 2: the people involved in this in this way, but unfortunately, 643 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 2: there's they're under siege, they're surrounded, nothing can get to them. 644 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 2: There's I got nothing, man. 645 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that that is the reality, right, It's 646 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: like there's nowhere to send money, there's nothing to like, 647 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: and to be quite frank, I mean, I think people 648 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: should be harassing their their representatives over this. But you know, 649 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: I'm not overly optimistic. Yeah, the Biden administration has been 650 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: making noises, you know, but but I you know, I 651 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: have not seen evidence that they're going to do more 652 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: than that yet. 653 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 2: So I will say if the United States gets involved 654 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 2: and they really want to turn Armenia to the West, 655 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 2: which they absolutely should. There's no better time, like now, 656 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 2: this is the chance to do it. You want to 657 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 2: show that, like the West is the way for Armenians 658 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 2: and pull them completely away from Russia because everybody wants 659 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 2: to get the fuck away from Russia. Like, yeah, there's 660 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 2: thousands of people marching down the street literally saying fuck 661 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 2: Russia yesterday. But you need to give them a path 662 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 2: to do so, and this is the way to do it. 663 00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, shit, thanks Joe. Sorry, sorry we keep having 664 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: you on the show in this uh this situation. I 665 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 1: uh well, we'll come on and talk about something. I 666 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 1: don't know. We probably won't. 667 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 2: Neither of our shows that we're talking about. 668 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: Other of our shows talk about anything lighthearted. Check out 669 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: Joe's show Lions Led by Donkeys, The Lions Lit by 670 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: Donkeys podcast, Great Military History podcast. Joe, thank you for 671 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:31,919 Speaker 1: being on, and please, I don't know, uh, good luck. 672 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on. 673 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 1: Rob It could. 674 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 3: Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For 675 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,919 Speaker 3: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 676 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,879 Speaker 3: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio, app, 677 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 3: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 678 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 3: find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at 679 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,240 Speaker 3: cool zonemedia dot com, slash sources. Thanks for listening.