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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heeart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners, Well, today's episode

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Speaker 1: is gonna take me a bit more out of my

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Speaker 1: comfort zone than is normally the case. Uh. My guest

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Speaker 1: is Steven Jackson. He was a highly respected basketball player

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Speaker 1: in the NBA for many years and he's now the

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Speaker 1: co host of video podcast called All the Smoke with

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Speaker 1: one of his friends and another former NBA player named

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Speaker 1: Matt Barnes, which has been really sort of getting a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount attention, having incredible array of guests, really some

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Speaker 1: of the most famous basketball players and other athletes in

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Speaker 1: the world, and arrange of celebrities and others. So it's

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Speaker 1: a real honor for me to have him on the

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Speaker 1: reason I wanted to have Steven Jackson, and he goes

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Speaker 1: by Stack. That's what I'm be calling him is because

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Speaker 1: he's been one of the people who's been more outspoken

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Speaker 1: about the issues around drug testing and cannabis in the

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Speaker 1: NBA and in professional sports for quite a number of

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Speaker 1: years now. And he's also been somebody who's been one

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Speaker 1: of the people most out there among professional athletes and

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Speaker 1: addressing issues around the drug war and racial justice and

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Speaker 1: has a particular connection to all this that we'll get

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Speaker 1: into um as we proceed. So Stack, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining in me un psychoactive eightan, I'm honored to

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Speaker 1: be here. Thanks for having me. Let's just start off

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Speaker 1: with this. I mean, the sense I have is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, in professional sports, I mean NBA, football, baseball, hockey, whatever,

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Speaker 1: and even the Olympics, right, we're seeing a real movement

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Speaker 1: around testing for marijuana and punishing people from marijuana. Why

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Speaker 1: do you think that's happening. Is it just because it's

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Speaker 1: getting legalized everywhere or or what? Well, I think at

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Speaker 1: one point, you know, it was a certain it was

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Speaker 1: a certain demographic and and a certain culture that was

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Speaker 1: glorifying marijuana, and and and and that marijuana was basically

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Speaker 1: put on the pedestal in and when that demographic, you

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Speaker 1: know as being young black athletes who are having a

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Speaker 1: lot of money, and who's who's reaching a lot of

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Speaker 1: success at a young age, when it became a problem

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Speaker 1: in sports, for for for teams and for businesses, I

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Speaker 1: think that's when they really tried to step on it

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Speaker 1: and make it bad, you know, to to to the masses.

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Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, you know, I

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Speaker 1: remember when I was a kid. You know, my mom

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Speaker 1: used to have house parties. My mama stepdads to have

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Speaker 1: house parties and they're smoking weed and I was like

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Speaker 1: a cigarette. So it's a conversation that you got to have.

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Speaker 1: But you have to know what you're doing. You have

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Speaker 1: to know why you're doing it. And everybody's not in

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Speaker 1: health in cannabis and and then consuming cannabis to be

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Speaker 1: seen to be in the hip crowd. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people are doing them for the right reasons, for medical reasons,

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Speaker 1: to be saying. And so I mean when you talked

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Speaker 1: about it's a kind of quale, I mean, there's you say,

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Speaker 1: it's a kind of a social aspect to the marijuana use.

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Speaker 1: It's very popular among young athletes, especially black athletes, bit

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Speaker 1: more generally, but also a medical thing, right, And I

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Speaker 1: say you talked about how it would help you relax

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Speaker 1: or feel better after games, right, I mean, I mean,

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Speaker 1: is that what it is for most people? What for what? What?

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Speaker 1: For me? I can I can definitely speak for me

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Speaker 1: and guys like Matt Barnes because we were very similar.

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Speaker 1: And I went the long road to get to the NBA,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying out for eighteen team, breaking both of

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Speaker 1: my feet, dealing with death to my older brother, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of different things coming up that that can

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Speaker 1: have you mentally disturbed, you know. And as as a

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Speaker 1: kid dealing with so much, especially as a teenager, within

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Speaker 1: one to help my mom and want to do the

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Speaker 1: right things, but it's so easy to do the wrong

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Speaker 1: things around me. The cannabis and basketball helped me escape.

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Speaker 1: That was my two escapes. So when I played basketball,

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Speaker 1: I was able to escape from back from the world

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Speaker 1: that what's going on. As soon as I leave the court,

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Speaker 1: I'm back to the real world. Where the only way

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Speaker 1: I could escape and keep myself sane was cannabis. So um,

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Speaker 1: I know, the injuries that I that I played. I

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Speaker 1: played three years with a broken toe. I couldn't have

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Speaker 1: done that without cannabis. Being able to to play eight

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Speaker 1: or two games. Deal with the ups and downs, deal

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Speaker 1: with UH being UH labeled as a thug or something

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Speaker 1: that I'm not while I'm playing basketball. All those things

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Speaker 1: can be frustrated and people don't want to stand. You

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Speaker 1: can make all the money in the world, but mental

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Speaker 1: health is undefeated. I don't care what you have. Mental

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Speaker 1: health can still deal with you. And you have all

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Speaker 1: the money world, but you still deal with mental things.

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Speaker 1: You still have insecurity, you still deal with ups and downs.

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Speaker 1: And you think there's generally true of guys in the

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Speaker 1: NBA and maybe other leaks as well. It's definitely true

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Speaker 1: an all sports. And that's why they're not drug testing

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Speaker 1: now because they see that cannabis one. You're not going

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Speaker 1: to stop the players from from doing Canada because this

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Speaker 1: is the safest drug. It's safer than alcohol. It's definitely

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Speaker 1: safer than alcohol. So so, and that's why all professionals

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Speaker 1: are not testing now because Okay, I would rather my

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Speaker 1: player go home and smoke and join it too, then

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Speaker 1: go to a club and get drunk and possibly getting

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Speaker 1: the d U. I. So it's making sense now, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's been made since a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: But like they say, they're starting to make money off

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Speaker 1: of us, so now they're starting to listen. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean it's also the fact of course here Now you've

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Speaker 1: got illegal for medical uses in thirty eight states and

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Speaker 1: for all adults in eighteen states. So you've got the

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Speaker 1: craziness right of people playing for teams and states whards

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Speaker 1: legal and still having a policy that says you can't

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Speaker 1: use cannabis or you can't test positive for I mean,

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Speaker 1: that also makes no sense, right, So it's not just

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Speaker 1: the money, it's the broader political legalization of the whole thing, right,

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Speaker 1: And you got and that and that the thing make

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Speaker 1: it makes sense. You can't tell me that I can't

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Speaker 1: use cannabis when I'm living in the state where it's legal.

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Speaker 1: I don't care what sport I'm playing. We're going by

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Speaker 1: this is we're going but we're going by the rules

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Speaker 1: of the state. There's a law. The state makes the laws,

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Speaker 1: not the team you're playing for. They don't make the rules.

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Speaker 1: So that's why all these sports teams now we're saying Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're not tested for cannabis no more. And I remember

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Speaker 1: when I first retired, soon as I worked out on ESPN,

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Speaker 1: the first chance I got to speak on cannabis, I said,

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Speaker 1: I smoked. I know, I was the first one that

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Speaker 1: I smoked. My whole career. I played more games than anybody.

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Speaker 1: I played hurt. I didn't want to miss a game.

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Speaker 1: But if I couldn't go home after playing forty two

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Speaker 1: minutes guarding a guy a hundred pounds heavier than me,

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Speaker 1: if I can go home and smoke a joint just

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Speaker 1: to come down, uh and relax, there's no way I

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Speaker 1: would have made it fourteen years. Yeah, and by the way,

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Speaker 1: I should told the audience, I mean, yes, Stacks is

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Speaker 1: not just bragging here. I saw a quote where Larry Bird,

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Speaker 1: the very famous player for the Boston Celtics, you know,

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Speaker 1: back when, back when I was younger, he described Stack

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Speaker 1: is basically the toughest player in the league when it

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Speaker 1: came to playing through paint and injury. So I very

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Speaker 1: much respect what you're saying. I assume the same thing

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Speaker 1: has been true in football as well. Now, when I

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Speaker 1: wonder is though you're using marijuana all during your career

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Speaker 1: while it's against the policy, right, so and you never

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Speaker 1: want you got suspended for some other ship, but you

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Speaker 1: never got suspended for weed, and so how did you

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Speaker 1: manage that? I think for me one, I didn't do

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Speaker 1: it for the wrong reasons. A lot of people do

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Speaker 1: it for the wrong ways. They do it to be cool,

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Speaker 1: they do it to be seen. It was always for

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Speaker 1: me to be able to relax my mind, to be

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Speaker 1: able to sleep, to cope with a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: For me, you know, I always knew the drug rules, right.

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Speaker 1: So at one point, if you have a positive test,

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Speaker 1: then you're go into a drug program. And and for

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Speaker 1: five or six years until they caught onto what we

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Speaker 1: was doing that you can smoke as long as you

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Speaker 1: you was in the drug proc program. You just couldn't

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Speaker 1: get out unless you pass three consecutive tests. So I

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Speaker 1: felt so I figured it out. So I'm like, before

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Speaker 1: you'll even test me, I'm gonna let you all know

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Speaker 1: my pistons uh is gonna be positive. So just put

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Speaker 1: me in the drug program for the next six years.

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Speaker 1: I don't care about getting out. I'm not getting suspended.

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Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not losing any money, but I'm still

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Speaker 1: in the drug program. So that's when the things wasn't

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Speaker 1: so hard. So I figured that out. So I was

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Speaker 1: able to smoke for six years until they're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: they just in the program smoking, They're not even trying

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Speaker 1: to get out. They figured it out. They came up

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Speaker 1: with another with the random test, and it's definitely ways around.

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Speaker 1: I had different relationships with different people. Sometimes we drunk

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Speaker 1: certain things to to mask to mask our yearine we did.

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Speaker 1: We did a lot of things that that we probably

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Speaker 1: could have got caught and got in trouble for, but

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Speaker 1: we didn't. But um, cannabis was just that important to

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Speaker 1: us being sane enough to do our jobs. And what

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Speaker 1: about the guys who were getting caught. Were they just

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Speaker 1: being dumb or unlucky or with somebody get trying to

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Speaker 1: get them or what was going on there? A little

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Speaker 1: bit of both. See I wasn't riding around with cannabis

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Speaker 1: in my car and smoking with the car smoked out

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Speaker 1: and something like like. That's stuff like that. They just

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Speaker 1: that's just dumb. You you you you tell them on

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Speaker 1: this stuff. You want to go to jail. You have

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Speaker 1: no reason to be doing that anyway. You you want

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Speaker 1: to get pulled over with guys doing stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: just they're doing it. That's that's that's called doing it

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Speaker 1: for the wrong reasons. I never rode with it. I

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Speaker 1: never put myself in a position outside of my home

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Speaker 1: to be caught with it. So I did everything in

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Speaker 1: the comfort on my own home and all with people

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Speaker 1: are all my teammates and people around who who would

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Speaker 1: like minded, And that's what I did. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people get caught because they get sloppy, uh,

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Speaker 1: Like I said, they want people to see them doing it,

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Speaker 1: and they do it for the wrong reasons, and that's

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Speaker 1: when you get caught. It never fails, you know. I

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Speaker 1: saw when the guy who ran the NBA, David Stern

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Speaker 1: for like thirty years, right, kind of an almost an

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Speaker 1: authoritarian but very foul power effective leader, right, and he

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Speaker 1: was the one suspending people left, right and center. And

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Speaker 1: then I see this thing where a former NBA player,

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Speaker 1: somebody you had in your show, Al Harrington, is now

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Speaker 1: in the marijuana industry, you know, interviews Stern after educating

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Speaker 1: about the issue, and Stern goes, well, I think we

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Speaker 1: should change the policy now, I mean, why do you think?

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Speaker 1: And I see his successor Adam Silver. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, he won't boldly say let's just

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Speaker 1: stop to damn marijuana testing, although I think they're just

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Speaker 1: about there. But why does it take so long for

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Speaker 1: these guys to do it? They know that of all

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Speaker 1: the players are using cannabis in one way or another.

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Speaker 1: What what took so long? Well, I mean a lot

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Speaker 1: of things with just a conversation, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, I'd rather somebody sit back and wait

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Speaker 1: till they have a conversation with somebody from that demographic

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Speaker 1: or somebody who understands it, and before they just come

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Speaker 1: out and say no, I'm against it. Right So, and

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Speaker 1: that's what David Stern did. Als my as my closest

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Speaker 1: friend in the world. I was right there on the

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Speaker 1: side of him when he started Viola in he is

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Speaker 1: he's a marijuana business, right, yeah? Is this brand vowel

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Speaker 1: is called Viola is named after his grandmother. And I

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Speaker 1: saw his vision. I was right there, invested from the

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Speaker 1: jump and with al doing Now he's a trend settor,

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Speaker 1: you know, he he saw something that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people didn't see by by playing in for the Nuggets.

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Speaker 1: You know, when when cannabis first came legal in um

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Speaker 1: In Colorado, Devil, Colorado, so he was ahead of the game.

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Speaker 1: He studied, he took his time to learn everything, and

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Speaker 1: he has had so many athletes benefit from being in

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Speaker 1: the cannabis business. So far from him teaching him the

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Speaker 1: business and helping them start there on different brands and

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Speaker 1: on growth houses and dispensaries such. But David Stern sat

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Speaker 1: down with the right person. Al knew everything about it.

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Speaker 1: He knew the business, he knew the positive side of it.

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Speaker 1: Any negative idea question that David Stern had, I was

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Speaker 1: able to answer it with a positive answer, and David Stern,

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Speaker 1: you know, respected it and understood the hours coming from facts.

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Speaker 1: So by David started going to the right person, I

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Speaker 1: can see why he instantly changed his mind. Because is

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Speaker 1: the spokesperson for the NBA and for athletes all around

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Speaker 1: the world, because he is the leader. He's so he

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Speaker 1: has the biggest we have the biggest black owned cannabis

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Speaker 1: brand called Viola, and he is the biggest athlete involved

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Speaker 1: in it. So that conversation was had by the two

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Speaker 1: right people, and their conversation was long overdue. A lot

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Speaker 1: of these owners, a lot of these people who run

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Speaker 1: these leagues, like the commissioners toff like that they're the

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Speaker 1: ones that need to sit down with someone that's from

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Speaker 1: that different graphic that understands cannabia, that that knows the

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Speaker 1: benefits of cannabis, and they can sit down with him

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Speaker 1: and get an understanding. But a lot of these people

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Speaker 1: have never sat down with anyone. They just judging from

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Speaker 1: the outside looking in the automatic naking okay, drug drug,

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Speaker 1: Cannabis is a drug, is a drug. What's a lot

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Speaker 1: of drugs? I hit the child making money off of

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Speaker 1: that's killing people, you know. And also it seemed like

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Speaker 1: in football, you got a little more of this, you know.

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Speaker 1: I remember back, it must have been seven years ago.

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Speaker 1: I was doing a TV interview at CNN with Fred Zakaria,

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Speaker 1: and in the green room with me is Marvin Washington.

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Speaker 1: You know, football player had been in the Super Bowl,

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Speaker 1: Super Bowl has the Super Bowl ring, and he was

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Speaker 1: out there talking about CBD, right and and and he's

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Speaker 1: now become kind of one of the leaders in there.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things they seem to notice is

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Speaker 1: that in football, the guys seemed to be a little

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Speaker 1: more focused on the CBD side of marijuana. Whereas maybe

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Speaker 1: in the basketball thing it's more combined th hc cb D,

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Speaker 1: and maybe the football thing is about you know, the

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Speaker 1: traumatic brain injuries and and all that stuff. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: do you notice this difference among different leagues about how

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Speaker 1: they come at this issue. See with me, I look

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Speaker 1: at things different, Like it wasn't a secret with me,

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Speaker 1: Like before I even got into the NBA, Before I

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Speaker 1: got to the Spurs, Greg Popch came to me after

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Speaker 1: summer league and told me this is this is Greg Papers.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you two of the best coaches to

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Speaker 1: have a coach in the in the NBA. These are

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Speaker 1: the conversations I had with them before I play with

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Speaker 1: Greg Paptch comes to me and says, Stephen Jackson, I

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Speaker 1: want you on the team. You had a great summer league,

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Speaker 1: but I hear you like to smoke cannabis. You cannot

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Speaker 1: smoke cannabis while you played with the Spurs. This is

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Speaker 1: when I'm this is my introduction to the NBA, so

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Speaker 1: they already know what you like to do a lot

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Speaker 1: of things about you. I get to go to State

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Speaker 1: don Nelson, he applauds the fact that I get my

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Speaker 1: last drug test. We were smoking all year anyway, but

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Speaker 1: he did not have a problem with us smoking. When

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Speaker 1: we beat Dallas in the first round, the first A

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Speaker 1: t to be the number one seed in the playoffs,

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Speaker 1: we go to don Nelson's house. Soon as we walk in, he,

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Speaker 1: like Jack Hey Woody horrises in the back rolling Dubies.

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Speaker 1: So some coaches understood the dynamic of what it did

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Speaker 1: for the players, and guys like me, I didn't abuse it.

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Speaker 1: And and Nether and these coaches, I'm pretty sure, like

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Speaker 1: don Nelson, he played, so they heard they did worst

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Speaker 1: things when they were playing. You know, the locker room

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Speaker 1: was drinking beers and smoking cigarettes at halftime. So I

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Speaker 1: was blessed to be a positions where coaches let me

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Speaker 1: be me, you know, at all times, and even when

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Speaker 1: we're called our coaches let me be me. So let

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Speaker 1: me just back up for a second. Tell her audience.

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Speaker 1: So some of the names that status mentioned. Gregg Popovich

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Speaker 1: is the famous coach of the San Antonio Spurs, I

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Speaker 1: think the President team too, who's won tons of champion

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Speaker 1: one of the one of the leaders in basketball history

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Speaker 1: for winning championships and major games. And Don Nelson is

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Speaker 1: in the Hall of Fame, I think because he's probably

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Speaker 1: the second most winning coaching history. Popovitch is interesting right

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Speaker 1: because Popovich, among all the coaches, has been among those

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Speaker 1: speaking out the most about racism and racial injustice and

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Speaker 1: jumping on with Black Lives Matter with George Floyd gets killed.

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Speaker 1: But I haven't heard much on the stuff about about

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Speaker 1: drug testing and about marijuana, and I mean, let's have

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Speaker 1: missed something there, and I'm so I'm curious both if

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Speaker 1: you heard different. Has he been on that issue too,

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Speaker 1: and also that I mean when he told you that,

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Speaker 1: did you actually stop smoking marijuana or you just got

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Speaker 1: more careful? Absolutely not. I never stopped, and I knew

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Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna stop. And uh, I think he knew

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Speaker 1: that too, but I think he still had to say it.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he'll ever come out and publicly to

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Speaker 1: stand behind cannabis or anything like that. That's just not

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Speaker 1: who pop is. But at the same time, if he

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Speaker 1: knows it's helping people, if you know it's saving lives,

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Speaker 1: if he knows it's it's medication for a lot of

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Speaker 1: people and help a lot of people stay safe, he won't.

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Speaker 1: He won't. He won't go against it. He might not

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Speaker 1: stand behind it, but he won't go against it. And

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Speaker 1: and and that's one thing I respect about him. Pop knew,

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Speaker 1: Pop knew me. He knew I was smoking the whole time,

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Speaker 1: but I was performing. I was doing my job. If

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Speaker 1: it ever became a problem where it embarrassed the team

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Speaker 1: or embarrassed the organization, I would have to stand behind

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Speaker 1: that and and and deal with my punishment. But that

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Speaker 1: never happened. And that's why I always have Pops respect

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Speaker 1: in a way. Right, It's basically what he was telling

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Speaker 1: you was don't get caught, right, And what what the

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Speaker 1: whole policy was doing was taking an activities almost like

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Speaker 1: alcohol prohibition and half the country's drinking. You're in the

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Speaker 1: NBA or NFL whatever, and half the players are using

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Speaker 1: this stuff and where another if not more. But they're

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Speaker 1: all being expected to lie or to cheat in some respect.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's part of the thing that So I

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Speaker 1: think that was so kind of pathetic about the whole

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Speaker 1: drug testing policy. It's a kind of wink wink, not

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Speaker 1: not everybody knows it's bullshit, right, But meanwhile you're expected

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Speaker 1: to basically be dishonest and to scam um. I mean,

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Speaker 1: is that do you just learn to live with that

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Speaker 1: or do you disagree with I just put out there

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Speaker 1: I thought that, Yeah, I mean you're right, I mean

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Speaker 1: we we I know I did. I mean I had

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Speaker 1: to finesse the system, you know, in order to keep

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Speaker 1: smoking and keep myself saying. I mean I can't imagine,

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Speaker 1: you know, I had I had a number of years,

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Speaker 1: five or six years. Why I average twenty points? You know? Um,

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Speaker 1: I know if I was able to walk in the

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Speaker 1: arena knowing that when I leave the game, I can

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Speaker 1: smoke in piece, don't have to worry about being drug

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Speaker 1: tests like hiding it, how better my performance would have

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Speaker 1: bun off? Oh? Man, I just I think about that

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Speaker 1: all the time. How these guys can just go home

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Speaker 1: and smoking piece, you know, and stuff like that. So, um,

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Speaker 1: it would have been a different league for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people. A lot of people wouldn't have got caught,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people would have got suspended. A lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff that happened in the league wouldn't happen if

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Speaker 1: guy didn't have to hide the fact that they were

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Speaker 1: smoking cannabis. Stackle tasm history. It must have been the

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Speaker 1: late nineties or something, and something had popped up for

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Speaker 1: early two thousands, can't remember exactly. And I actually called

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Speaker 1: Billy Hunter, who was then the head of the Players

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Speaker 1: Association the NBA, and I said, you know, we gotta

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Speaker 1: do something. You know, this is ridiculous, and he was

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Speaker 1: very engaged. He said, you're right, You're right, we gotta

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Speaker 1: do something. And this is over twenty years ago. And

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Speaker 1: then I never heard back from him, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know whether it was just he felt too early to premature.

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Speaker 1: Now you jumped forward and his successor as head of

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Speaker 1: the Players Association, Michelle Roberts. I think she's on the

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Speaker 1: board of a cannabis company, right, So, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: guess there has been a significant evolution in what's going

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Speaker 1: on here. You know, Michelle Robbins is the one who

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Speaker 1: initially reached out Harrington to start that conversation, so she understood. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was. She was a trailblazer for you know, people

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Speaker 1: can't actually say the truth until after they retire, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I tell you, in football, remember there was

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Speaker 1: that guy, was his name, Ricky Williams. I mean, Ricky

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Speaker 1: Williams is an incredibly talented football player and he actually

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Speaker 1: he made an issue of it while he was playing, right,

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Speaker 1: I think he even he even quit for a while

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Speaker 1: because he said, I don't want to right, but nobody else. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but he was a rare and unusual case in all

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Speaker 1: of this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it never and it never

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Speaker 1: got to that point with us, I think, especially with me,

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Speaker 1: because like I said, I was from nesting the system.

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Speaker 1: I had made so many connects to do what I

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Speaker 1: needed to do that I wasn't even worrying about, you know,

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Speaker 1: taking it to to that point. But um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think at that time either guys like me

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Speaker 1: had the power to even speak on it, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean. Like I wasn't. I wasn't one of

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Speaker 1: the top players in the league. I was considered the

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Speaker 1: thug because I was a lawyer teammate, because I went

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Speaker 1: the stands with my with my my teammate ron Or Testing,

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Speaker 1: because I defended jamal Ten's lead the Strip Club, I

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Speaker 1: was considered the thug, which I wasn't. I was just

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Speaker 1: a lawyer teammate. So with me, I don't think I

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Speaker 1: was even the person to speak up and to bring

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Speaker 1: that to the attention at the time. It had to

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Speaker 1: be a bigger name player. They would have just laughed

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Speaker 1: at me. Yeah, what about I saw you know that

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Speaker 1: Steve Kerr, you know who played for the Bulls and

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Speaker 1: then as you know, won all these championships with the Warriors.

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Speaker 1: At a coach recently, he came right out um recently

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Speaker 1: talking about his own use of medical neural Wanda, I

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Speaker 1: think for you know, back surgeries or back pains. I mean,

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Speaker 1: is that's the kind of thing that's having a significant

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Speaker 1: influence on other coaches. Yeah, I mean Steve was on

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Speaker 1: the two thousand three championship team with me in San Antonio,

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Speaker 1: and all those guys knew what I was doing. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think with Steve, I think, you know what you

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Speaker 1: put your body through as a professional athlete with Steve

429
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 1: put his body through and still and now he's having

430
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 1: back problems. Uh. A lot of people don't want to

431
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: take pills. A lot of people want to take um pills.

432
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 1: That's gonna have them having withdrawals like they like they

433
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,720
Speaker 1: did a hard like they're doing cocaine or something where

434
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 1: they having shakes because they don't want to take that medicine.

435
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 1: No more like it's it's amazing how how uh they'll

436
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 1: forced that on you. But taking a piece of candy

437
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,639
Speaker 1: with some with some TA with just say fift percent

438
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,360
Speaker 1: t C and that a relaxtion whole body and does

439
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,240
Speaker 1: no damage to you. Won't won't won't make you have

440
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 1: have a major withdrawals. That's a big problem. But I

441
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 1: love the fact that you know, people are caring about

442
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,000
Speaker 1: their lives and not being afraid to speak up on

443
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,920
Speaker 1: how simple things can be. You know, it's not a secret.

444
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 1: It's been holistic doctor saying with benefits of cannabis for years,

445
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 1: but they never want to listen. So I'm glad guys

446
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,440
Speaker 1: with the statue of Steve Kerr are standing up behind

447
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 1: it because there's there's so many benefits of it and

448
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 1: they just want to push those pills and those pharmaceutical

449
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 1: stuff because that's big business. But they know cannabis is

450
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,000
Speaker 1: way better for you. We'll be talking more after we

451
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 1: hear this ad. Let me branch out here a little

452
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,119
Speaker 1: bit stack. You know, when it comes to marijuana, you

453
00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 1: know we talked about is having these benefits right, and

454
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 1: obviously we're talking about you know, very few people we're

455
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 1: using marijuana, you know, before a game. So what's your

456
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,920
Speaker 1: view about drug testing for these other drugs in sports?

457
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 1: You're seeing more and more people getting suspended in the NBA,

458
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 1: not just other leagues, for performance and dancing drugs. Does

459
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 1: that all sound right and fair to you or do

460
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 1: you think these policies are I think they're getting caught

461
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 1: for performance enhancement drugs, but I don't think they're taking

462
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 1: it to in hand. I think they're taking like dick

463
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 1: hardener peals like to make the dick harder a little longer,

464
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 1: those type of pills, and they have certain things in

465
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: them that when they do take drug tests, that that

466
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,880
Speaker 1: that drug tests that they end up positive and and

467
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 1: and some I guess some of the ingreedy it's in them,

468
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 1: so the same positive test as it was it would

469
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,679
Speaker 1: if they took performance enhancement drugs. Yeah, but you know,

470
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: I saw it was one of the former m v

471
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 1: P Derrick Roads some years ago. You know, he said, oh,

472
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 1: there's a lot of performance dancing drug use in basketball,

473
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 1: and then he kind of walked it back and then

474
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 1: there was a yeah, I disagree with that. I disagree.

475
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 1: But then it was a coach George Carl who won

476
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 1: like over a thousand games, and he wrote a book saying, oh,

477
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 1: there's a lot more of it than people realize. And

478
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 1: when you think about some of these performance dancing drugs,

479
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: they're not like bulking you up the way Barry Bonds

480
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 1: did it, put on fifteen pounds and you know, break

481
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 1: Babe Ruth's home run record. Some of this is just

482
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 1: enabling people to kind of heal better, you know, get

483
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 1: their muscles better. I mean, not all that removed from

484
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 1: the way you described the benefits of marijuana. Yeah, but

485
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: I kind of disagree with that and agree with that

486
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: you write something at some at some stages. Yeah, but

487
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 1: when you're taking stuff like a performance and drugs, you're

488
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 1: you're you're you're taking it to get an edge? Are

489
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: you taking it to help give yourself had a chance

490
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 1: after injury or something like that? We stayed injury, we

491
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:05,879
Speaker 1: we We was hurt a lot. I mean last I

492
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: played three years with a broken toe. I never thought

493
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 1: about taking something that would give me a boost. Are taking?

494
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: Uh even even thought about something that wasn't natural to take,

495
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 1: you know, I never. I I didn't even like taking

496
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 1: you know, pills that gave me for pain. You know

497
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: the word the fathers I went with was it leave?

498
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: And that's all I take today besides cannabis. But um,

499
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: I think I think a lot of guys in the

500
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: in the NBA, especially around my time, wasn't nobody taking

501
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: you know, uh, performance enhancement drugs. And I know guys

502
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,199
Speaker 1: that being the playoffs and you know they're dealing with

503
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: the two broken fingers and broken toy or something like that.

504
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 1: They might take a shot to get through that game.

505
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:43,959
Speaker 1: You know, they might take a shot to get through

506
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 1: that game, you know what, just to play that game.

507
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: But that wasn't helping his performance. It was helping him

508
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 1: get through to to be able to get through the

509
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: four quarters. So it's a big difference. Yeah, I remember,

510
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: you know, when I was a kid, the famous Bookball

511
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: for like the picture Jim bounding, right, and if you

512
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: you know that, you know you were just say this

513
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: probably before you were born. But he kind of revealed

514
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: kind of out at all of the drug use and

515
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,479
Speaker 1: other sorts of stuff going on professional baseball. But one

516
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: of the points being made was, you know, in professional baseball,

517
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: you're playing a hundred sixty two games a year, You're

518
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: traveling across time zones all the time, you're playing night games.

519
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: I was playing day games, right, And that basically he

520
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: was in the amphetamine. You know, it was just absolutely

521
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: pivotal to helping people, you know, live this way. I mean,

522
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: it should almost have been a prescribed drug. And yet

523
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: that's band And I wonder you know what your thoughts

524
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 1: are about that millions of people are being prescribed riddle

525
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: and which is basically amphetamine. Um should that be a band?

526
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: Uh drug? Especially we talked about you guys being on

527
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: the road all the time and the exhausting nature of

528
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: that stuff. Yeah, I mean I could speak on that

529
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: Riddlings for sure. I I had my third older's daughter.

530
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: She used to have Caesars a lot, and uh, that's

531
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 1: what they prescribed tour and it was making no worse.

532
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: She couldn't think she was having more siezes, and um

533
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: I could. I couldn't wait till we was able to

534
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: get off. She just graduated high school, she was in

535
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: home school. She graduated with honors, and she's been vaping

536
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 1: for three years now. You know, she's still dealing with lupus,

537
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: but she's doing a lot better. And uh, I couldn't

538
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: see it no other way, you know what I mean.

539
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: So I think all all all those things that they're

540
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: pushing's big business has proven too many times that it

541
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: is not healthy and a lot of that stuff they

542
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 1: give it to you to to get dependent on it,

543
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: to keep buying it. I mean, there's no secret what

544
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: what what what those medications done, But it doesn't But

545
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't help those kids at all. Well, I'll tell

546
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: you something. I mean, I'm sorry to hear about you

547
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: about your daughter dealing with lupus. But you know the

548
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: fact that matter is, even with that riddling all the kids,

549
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: for some of them it helps them, and some of

550
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: them it's really the wrong thing. And you're right to

551
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: pushing it too much. But when it comes to the

552
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: issue around you know, the use of amphetamine, I mean healthy. U.

553
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: S Military has been allowing its long distance pilots to

554
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 1: use low those amphetamine for decades because they found it

555
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: reduced the number of crashes, reduced fatigue, and so you know,

556
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: I keep thinking that when it comes to to professional sports,

557
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: competitive stuff like that, it's a matter of I mean,

558
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: drugs are so often a matter of different strokes for

559
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: different folks, right. We know that we it affects people differently.

560
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: We know that stimulants affect people differently. We know all

561
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: the sort of stuff. And I keeping the point that

562
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: if it's not giving you a really an unfair competitive advantage,

563
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: the kind of bulking up your muscles the way say

564
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: Barry Bonds did or Ali Stretch Brigus did or whatever that.

565
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: You know, essentially, you should leave people alone and let

566
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: them use what's gonna work for them to get through

567
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: a season, right, which is incredibly you know, I don't

568
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: know anyway think think about but you write, but you

569
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 1: write about that. But I think the reason what what

570
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: makes it all, what made it bad, is when you

571
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: have those athletes getting caught in the hotel with two

572
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: women with cocaine, missing the games, when you have them

573
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: getting pulled over with drunk you know what I'm saying,

574
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: Like all those situations is what made it bad. You know,

575
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: I say, guys doing it for the wrong reasons, not

576
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: not and and and and and letting it the drugs

577
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: was doing them instead of them doing the drugs. Yeah,

578
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: but you also hear about you know, why was the

579
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 1: NBA management so resistant to opening up on this stuff,

580
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: and you know about the fear of you know, you know,

581
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,719
Speaker 1: ball players walking through a hotel lobby with the girls

582
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: and smelling of weed and not presenting the wrong image.

583
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: I mean, wasn't that part of it as well. Well,

584
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: I can tell you about me, and I think Matt

585
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: barn said it don't on our shows. I used to

586
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: get on the plane with a little a timeback, with

587
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: at least about uh three four ounces on it every trip,

588
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: and everybody smelled it, everybody's but everybody knows it was me,

589
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: and nobody said nothing. But so you know, it's it's just,

590
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: it's just it's just, you know, some people do it

591
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: the right way, some people don't, you know what I mean.

592
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: But like I said, like I said, I never I

593
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: never was caught with it, So it was never a

594
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: problem for me to to finesse it and get away

595
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: with it. But if you're you're in a position where

596
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 1: one at one time where you embarrassing team or embarrassing organization,

597
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: getting caught, getting pulled over something like that, that is

598
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: forever as forever on you, and it's gonna be hard

599
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: for you to kind of shake that, you know what

600
00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: I'm saying, And that that's gonna be like a little

601
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: cloud out over wherever you go. Yeah, okay, so so stack,

602
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: let's just shift gears here a bit. So a year

603
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: and a half ago, right, a guy named George Floyd

604
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: gets murdered by a cop named Derek Chauvin in in Minneapolis,

605
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: and it unleash is a kind of second wave of

606
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter and demonstrations all around the country and

607
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: around the world, and more white people speaking up on behalf,

608
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: you know, on the issue of racial justice and ever before,

609
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you pop up in Minneapolis

610
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: and maybe just explained to our listeners how that came about. Well,

611
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: I've been knowing George for five years. We grew up

612
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: an hour away from each other. The He's a couple

613
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: years older than me, and we had a friend that

614
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: was from my hometown named Telly Joyce and till he's

615
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: tell he told me one day on the basketball called

616
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: that me and me and he has a friend that

617
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: that that looks just like me and we might have

618
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: the same father. I'm like, yeah, right, He said, IM

619
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: gonna bring him down here. He brought him down there.

620
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: I look at him as soon we see each other.

621
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: The first thing we say is who your daddy? Who

622
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: your daddy? We looked alike that much where we really

623
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: could have been brothers, and uh, we just hit it off.

624
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: We became good friends, and we we started calling each

625
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: other twin from that day forward. And Uh, he was

626
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: an athlete. He played, He was one of the best

627
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: football players in Texas and when he was in high

628
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: school at Yates and also one of the best basketball players.

629
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: But twisting turns and and and in the areas we

630
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: lived in, you know, can can change our lives in

631
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: the heartbeat, and uh we put out. So we both

632
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: put ourselves in certain situations growing up. You know, I

633
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: think UM with me, I was able to escape some

634
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,239
Speaker 1: things that he wasn't able to escape. And uh, our

635
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: neighborhoods end up taking them under a little bit and

636
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: getting them in trouble where I ended up continuing to

637
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: play and getting to the NBA, and he ended up,

638
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: you know, trying to figure it out being home in

639
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: Houston and trying to figure his life out, stay out

640
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: of trouble. And we became good friends. Every summer when

641
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: the season is over, especially around the time when I

642
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,479
Speaker 1: was in San Antonio, I used to go to Houston,

643
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: and I spent my whole time in third Ward and

644
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: counting home projects with him and the rest of the

645
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: family in Third War Texas and Um time passed, you know,

646
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: he we both got our families. We both got kids.

647
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: We both got daughters the same age, and you know,

648
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: you become men, you separate, but you still love each other.

649
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: You know, you might not see each other every day,

650
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: you know, because like I said, we wasn't real family.

651
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: He was. He wasn't my real brother, but we stayed

652
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: in contact. So he was going to Minnesota because he

653
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: had got the CDL license and he was going out

654
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: there to drive trucks, and uh, we had spoken before

655
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: he went because he wanted me to see him. Boxes

656
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: are closed for job interviews, which we we both posted

657
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: on our social media's around that time. And I was

658
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: so happy for him because one thing about him he

659
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: was he was one of my friends that never abused

660
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,959
Speaker 1: our friendship. You have a lot of guys, especially when

661
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: you're an NBA player and you have money and your

662
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: rea success, a lot of people around you for the

663
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: wrong reasons, and they want to be with you for

664
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: the wrong reason try to benefit off you. He wasn't

665
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: that guy. He he genuinely cared about me, and uh,

666
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: he kept me out, He kept me out of harms way,

667
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: he kept me around, came me away from the wrong thing.

668
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: So that's why our relationship, why I valued our relationship.

669
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: So he was down there trying to change his life,

670
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: and you know, sometimes regardless where you go, certain things

671
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: are hard to escape. He got caught up a little

672
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: bit while he was down there trying to change his life,

673
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: and uh, I got it. I was on the couch

674
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: sleep one day um that morning with my daughter, and

675
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: my mother in law called me, you know, she's something.

676
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: She actually text me a video of it, and I

677
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: didn't really look at it because me and her speak

678
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: on the injustice that police do all the time. So

679
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: when she sent me the video, I'm thinking it's just

680
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: another video that she's sent in me. So I go

681
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: back to sleep. I get like sixty more messages and

682
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: I just opened one and it's my close friend Mike

683
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: Deep from my hometown and and it's and it's zac

684
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: text that he's something. Me says, did you see what

685
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: they did your twin in Minnesota? And when he said twin,

686
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: it instantly clicked that I got the video from my

687
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: mother in law and she's from Minnesota. She lives in Minnesota,

688
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: so everything just clicked. I'm like, no, you know what

689
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: I mean. I end up screaming. I started crying. I

690
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: jumped up and scared my daughter. It was tough to

691
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: see because you know, I saw myself down there, and

692
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: a lot of times as a man, especially with with

693
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: your loved ones, you feel it's it's not too much

694
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: you can't control. Besides unfortunate sickness are unfortunate depth everything

695
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: else as a man, you feel you control. So I

696
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: felt helpless. Man. I know his daughter Gianna, I can't

697
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: imagine how she felt at the time, and and and

698
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: her mother Rock saying, you know, that's the that's the

699
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: two that I kept a relationship with over the years,

700
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: and I instantly just thought about them. But one thing

701
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: I did know and that I could clearly keeping my

702
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: mind at the time was out of all the people

703
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: over the years that's been brutally murdered by police, I've

704
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: been wronged by police, I killed by police and never

705
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: got justice. They never had a professional athlete who's an

706
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: NBA champion, who has one of the biggest podcasts in

707
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: the world to speak up for them. And a lot

708
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: of times when they do that, the first thing they

709
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: do is bring up a person's past and try to

710
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: demean them as much as they can to make the

711
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: murder look valid to the world. And I wasn't gonna

712
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: let that happen to my to my twin. I went

713
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: to Minnesota. I had no idea what I was doing.

714
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: It was all off emotion and real pain and hurt.

715
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: You know. Jamie Fox came with me. H Kar Anthony

716
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: Towns pulled up with me. Bundby pulled up with me.

717
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: A lot of friends put up with me. My sign

718
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: to Mika Mallory, and they stood with me because this

719
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: wasn't a situation where there's people showing up for somebody

720
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: that they didn't know, because they felt that that this

721
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: is the right thing to do. This is my real twin.

722
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: This is the only person I can set on my twin,

723
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: my real friends. So this is my real pain that

724
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: I that I was displaying to the world. And you

725
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: know from from uh bon Jovi making that song saying

726
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: that you know my hearing me speak, you know, touched

727
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: him and and and and to say that I am

728
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: faced all part to be the biggest civil rights movement ever,

729
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: eighteen countries, all fifty states at one time. I'm honored

730
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: to say that I was able to to be a

731
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: part of that for my brother and and we was

732
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: able to get justice. But and a lot has changed,

733
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: but the world still hasn't changed because it's been a

734
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: thousand murders by police and students by police since George Floyd.

735
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: So it was just something that I felt I needed

736
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: to do. I didn't ask to be in a position,

737
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: but you know, like I said, it was my real pain.

738
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: I think I would have done that for any one

739
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: of my brothers, and you know, I'm glad I did it.

740
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 1: I don't regret anything. I put a lot of stuff

741
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: on the line. You know, a lot of people didn't

742
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: agree with what I was doing and what I was saying,

743
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: but I was comfortable with it because I'm one person

744
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: that know. You know, I I stand on something that

745
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: says love for all who have love for all. I've

746
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: told every race in this world, somebody from every race

747
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: in this world, and I love them, and they told

748
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: me the same, So I can stand on that. So

749
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: I know it's not rocket science. I know it's just

750
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: treat people how you want to be treated. But a

751
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: lot of people make it seem like it's harder than that.

752
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: And for me, if I have a chance to stand

753
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: up for somebody I love, or put myself on harms

754
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: with for somebody I love when I know I'm doing

755
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 1: the right thing and my heart is in the right

756
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: place and I'm being righteous. I do it any time,

757
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: I never regret it. Let's take a break here and

758
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 1: go to an ad. One of the things that really

759
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: stood out for mealso with the George Floyd thing was

760
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: here you have this cop with his you know, knee

761
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,720
Speaker 1: on his neck and George Floyd going, I can't breathe,

762
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 1: and you got one of the other cops, the younger cops,

763
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 1: you know, saying to the bystanders and young people there. Oh,

764
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: it just goes to show don't do drugs. Don't do drugs,

765
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: you know. And then the defense when they were trying

766
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: to defend those cops in court, they were making the case, oh,

767
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: it's because George Floyd was on drugs, right, which is

768
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 1: just what they did with Trayvon Martin, right. And that's

769
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: what they did with Michael Brown and Ferguson, what they

770
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: did with Acon McDonald in Chicago, and then what they

771
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: did with Filandel Casteele also in Minneapolis, right, or you know,

772
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: Terrence Scrutcher and Tulsa. I mean, it's just the repeated

773
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: thing where you try to say that because you're on

774
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: drug ugs. Somehow that justified the cops doing to you

775
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: what they did. And the video shows one thing. Georgie

776
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: was a gentle giant as as you see. As soon

777
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: as they was getting ready to come from he submitted

778
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: and sat down. He he he wasn't fighting back. He

779
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: would never fight back. But at the same time, no

780
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: man wants to be wrong or hand or wrong when

781
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: when when when they're when they're complying, and he was complying,

782
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: you know. But it was easy to see that it

783
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: was something happened before that, and that officer definitely had

784
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: been dead with my brother. And for that, for the

785
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: for the e m s to pull up and it's

786
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: actual sheriffs and sheriff uniforms with guns get out the

787
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: ms all that was kind of spooky to me. M

788
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: M yeah, I've never I've never seen it. I've never

789
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 1: seen the e m s pull up and it's actually

790
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 1: sharfs get out, pull out through the stretcher and actually

791
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: put the body on the street. I've never seen sheriffs

792
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: do that. Everyone. Wow. Well, the fact that it was

793
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: on video, though, I mean, that obviously transformed things, transformed

794
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: the country in a huge way. But you know, when

795
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: I think about, you know, the drug connection to all

796
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: this stuff, you know what I kind of flashed back

797
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: to was the story of Lenn Bias. I mean, you know,

798
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: you were you know, you were just uh what a

799
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: you know, a young kid back then. But I mean

800
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: I remember Lynn Bias. Yeah, and I was then. I

801
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: was finishing on my graduate work study on the whole

802
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: drug issue and about to start becoming a professor. But

803
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: I remember Lynn Bias. And for our audience, you know,

804
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: Lynn Bias was a remarkable college basketball player, black man.

805
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: He gets drafted second in the draft by the Boston Celtics,

806
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: and the next day he's out celebrating and snorting some

807
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: cocaine and has in arrhythmia and dies, you know, of

808
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 1: of a heart thing, you know, maybe an underlying condition whatever.

809
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: And the response right of the society, I mean, it

810
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: was this huge grief. But the very next thing that

811
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 1: happened was a few weeks later, members of Congress get

812
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: together and they passed one of the most draconian drug

813
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: laws ever passed mandatory minimum of twenty years for drug offenses. Right.

814
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: That results that helped with the results, you know, in

815
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: the incarceration of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Americans,

816
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: mostly young black men. And what do they call the law,

817
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: the len Bias law, you know, and it's just and

818
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: then you know, if you even think about some of

819
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: the other deaths, not all the deaths were about oh

820
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 1: that person was on drugs. You think about how how

821
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: Brianna Taylor got killed in Louisville, Right, it was a

822
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: drug grade, right, and she got shot, or you know,

823
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: years ago Katherine Johnson, ninety two year old woman in Atlanta.

824
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I mean the drug enforcement thing.

825
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: And so what you see is this kind of you know,

826
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: interplay on the one hand between the fears, the sensationalism

827
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: around black people using drugs, and on the other hand,

828
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: the justification of this drug war, which has led to,

829
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 1: you know, the United States having the highest incarceration rate,

830
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 1: you know, in the history of democratic societies, and a

831
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 1: history of incarcerating black men that grossly exceeds anything apart

832
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: South Africa. Every day you write all the set up,

833
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: they put the cocaine and drugs in the neighborhoods, then

834
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: arresting for it and make it illegal, then arresting for

835
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: them put him in jail for the rest of life.

836
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: When I was growing up in middle school, at one point,

837
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: cocaine was big, and there's a lot of my friends,

838
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: close friends selling. Um. I remember one point, you were

839
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: getting a year for every graham of cocaine, not ounce,

840
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: every graham of cocaine. You know, it is, guy's getting

841
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 1: caught with ten ounces of cocaine twenty hours and thirty

842
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: six ounces, and they're getting a year for each graham.

843
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: That didn't make any sense at all. Hey, I'm telling you.

844
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: In New York, some of my first advocacy was around

845
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: trying to reform the draconian Rockefeller drug laws in New York.

846
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: When I first started working on this in you know,

847
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 1: in the mid nineties, four percent of all the people

848
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: locked up in New York State prisons on a drug

849
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: charge were black or brown, even though black and brown

850
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: people were no more likely or maybe a little more

851
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 1: likely than white people to be selling in those drugs,

852
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: you know. So, I mean, it seems to me that

853
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 1: you're among a whole group of athletes, former athletes, current

854
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: athletes who really beginning to speak out about this issue

855
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: in a serious way, especially with cannabis. Yeah. Well, let

856
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: me ask you when it comes to the issues around race.

857
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: I mean, how do you think this all plays out

858
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: in professional sports? I was looking at the stats recently,

859
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: and you see the NBA, it's three fours black. It's

860
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: only you know, seventeen percent white, and probably more than

861
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: half those whites are not American, They're from abroad. Right.

862
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 1: You look at the NFL, it's sixty percent black and

863
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: maybe a quarter white. Right. Baseball, on the other hand,

864
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: sixty percent white and then a third Hispanic and less

865
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: than ten percent black. And so, I mean, do you

866
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 1: think that is there ways in which these policies are tougher?

867
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: Is the one reason the NBA took so long to,

868
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: you know, to kind of relax it's marijuana policy because

869
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: it's more, you know, that's primarily black athletes. Is that

870
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: a factor here? That that's one? But just think about

871
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: this and and and you gotta think about two. Everything

872
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: that's going on today and how how how blacks are

873
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: speaking up and how things that has been unfair for years.

874
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: People are starting to understand that that people are just

875
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: not complaining. This has been going on for a long time.

876
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: We've been been treated and treated a certain way and

877
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: treated less than for a long time, perfect example, the

878
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: Malice in the Palace. If that had if that was

879
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: us and that happened today, just tell people what malice

880
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 1: in the Palace are because they won't know on this okay,

881
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 1: what malice is. The Palace is probably the biggest brawl

882
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: ever in NBA history. It started on the court between

883
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: two rival teams. I was on the Indiana Pacers and

884
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: we were playing in Detroit against the Detroit Pistons. Um

885
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: It was a big rivalry and then we were winning

886
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: the game. It was a big game to see what

887
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: team was gonna be the championship contender. We end up

888
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 1: blowing him out. RNA Tests wanted to get give back

889
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: a file to Ben Wallace from the previous year in

890
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: the Eastern Conference Finals, which didn't make any sense because

891
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: we were winning by fifteen points. If forty five seconds

892
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 1: left in the game, the game was over. Rahn decides

893
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: to go file him anyway. Ben pushes him in the face.

894
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: It starts a big old scuffle between both teams. No

895
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: punches are thrown, but it's a lot of pushing going on.

896
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: The referees do a bad job of getting being off

897
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 1: the court with Ben instigates the fight for another fifteen

898
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: twenty minutes to the point where the fans are so

899
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 1: riled up that a fan throws a beer on run

900
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: our test it lands and runa test face RHNA tests

901
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: darts off in the stands after the guy, and our

902
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: whole team goes and it turns into a big old

903
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: brow where we get get to fight in the stands

904
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: and we all get suspended, and wrong get suspended you know,

905
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: for the whole season. I end up losing three million dollars.

906
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: But to what I was I was trying to say

907
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: is if that happened today, I wouldn't we wouldn't have

908
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 1: got suspended three million dollars. I wouldn't have got suspended

909
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: thirty games that wrong would it got suspended for the

910
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: rest of the season because we were at work. We

911
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 1: were we were at work playing in the NBA. We

912
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: were fighting fans because things were thrown at us. If

913
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: you if in any state or in any place in

914
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: the world, ethan, if a beer is thrown in your face,

915
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: that's a so But when you deal it. But when

916
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: you're dealing with rich black athletes, you just have to

917
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: take Yeah, today, but everything going on today and how

918
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 1: and how we're speaking of now, if that happened today,

919
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: it would be a totally different situation. Now, it's good

920
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: that things have change, it, but I think about, you know,

921
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: you have brawls and hockey all the time, right, you know,

922
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: and you don't have and that's mostly white guys, and

923
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: you don't have penalties like you've had in basketball. And

924
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: then I see, you know, people make a fair point

925
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: that when you looked at like, you know, for example,

926
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: what happened with some of the you know, the the

927
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 1: violence and other stuff that happened around the George Floyd

928
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: you know stuff and all of that. But then people

929
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: compared the police crackdown on that, which could be pretty

930
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: onerous with what happened when you had mostly white people

931
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: protesting against the you know, the vaccine and the mask

932
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 1: restrictions and all the the COVID stuff. And what's the

933
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: saying is there some equality going on here or is

934
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: it simply the fact that when we see black people,

935
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: you know, getting violent or acting out, we're gonna crack down,

936
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: whether it's in sports or in borders. This xiety we're

937
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: there's basically a higher tolerance of white people acting out

938
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: and getting violent, whether in sports or in broader society

939
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: in the very similar ways. I mean, you agree with

940
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: that analysis. That's a great analysis. You're exactly right. And

941
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: it should never be a time whether Indiana Pacers are

942
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: playing basketball, a cop Rolls should run on the court

943
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: and to spray Reggie Miller saying and saying you do

944
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: not know that Reggie Millers on the Indiana Pacers. That

945
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: should never happen in the arena. Everybody that anybody that

946
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: works for the Pistons, uhh, that's involved the organization, all

947
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 1: should know Reggie Millers in that arena for for cops,

948
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: for for two cops to be there. Your job is

949
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: to protect the players and to make sure that this

950
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: is the event is safe. And you don't know Reggie

951
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: Miller's on the team and you're about to Mason in

952
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: front of the world. That says a lot about that night.

953
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: But that's why I was glad we was able to

954
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: put that documentary out because a lot of things we

955
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: couldn't say and show came to light. And if that

956
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: happened today, I think it would have been better taking

957
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: care of and better defended. Yeah, honey, look, it's it's

958
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: a long history we're talking about here. Because if you

959
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: look at the origins of the drug prohibition laws, I mean,

960
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: when it came to opium and the opius, it was

961
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: about anti Chinese prejudice. When it came to cannabis, it

962
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 1: was actually about prejudice against you know, Mexican Americans and

963
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 1: Mexican migrants. When it came to cocaine, it was about

964
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: black people using cocaine and Louisiana and out in the South,

965
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: and white people being a phrase or what a what

966
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: a negro crazed on cocaine was gonna do to our

967
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: precious white women, right, and about their becoming you know, violent.

968
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: So there's this there's this long history going back there

969
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: that continues to be part of the culture and mine.

970
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: You're not just in the US, I mean you talk

971
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: you look at even at the United Kingdom, right where

972
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: they don't have pop shooting people in the same way,

973
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: but they got a surprising large number of people dying

974
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: in custody, oftentimes black people as well, getting disproportionately arrested.

975
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: You know, you see the same thing playing out. I mean,

976
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 1: US is special, but this is a phenomenon that goes

977
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: even more broadly beyond that. So I mean, for me,

978
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,240
Speaker 1: I'm happy to see the activism around athletes and others

979
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: around cannabis reform and not testing for this stuff, branching

980
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: in other areas like broader civil rights, like broader racial justice,

981
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,439
Speaker 1: you know, because I think that's, you know, it's that's

982
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: the way this thing is going to open up and

983
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: really can gain some not just traction a momentum, but

984
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 1: some real staying power, you know. So listen, staff, I

985
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: gotta ask you to ask questions before you go, and

986
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: they're both going to be outside what we've been talking about.

987
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: The thing that's booming more quickly than anything else in

988
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: the drug area right now is psychedelics. People using psychedelics,

989
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: investing in psychedelics, you know. And and this is an

990
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 1: issue where you still see very few black people involved,

991
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 1: right You see more and more black people getting involved

992
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: in the cannabis industry now. Is not just Al Harrington,

993
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: it's other famous you know, celebrities and others, and just

994
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: simple black entrepreneurs. But the psychedelics, not much going on

995
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: in terms of hearing about black people using it or

996
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: black people investing in it. Is that strange? Have you

997
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 1: thought about it? Is that gonna change in some way?

998
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: What do you think, well, I can give you one

999
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: reason now, because I don't even know what it is. See,

1000
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: let's say that half of the black people not involved

1001
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: in it, because we don't even know what psychedelics is.

1002
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 1: I'm talking about psilocybin, mushrooms, magic mushrooms, I'm talking about

1003
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: talking about talking Okay, I'm talking about mescaline sometimes LSD

1004
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: and also m D M a ecstasy which isn't really

1005
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 1: a psychedelic. But there's all this medical evidence now about

1006
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: people getting tremendous benefits and dealing with depression and anxiety

1007
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 1: and addiction and a whole range of other things. There's

1008
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: now startup companies that are worth a billion dollars. I mean,

1009
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: what's happening in the psychelics area has happen like what

1010
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: happened to cannabis area, you know, both in terms of

1011
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: use and in terms of the markets. Different in some respects.

1012
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: But when I went to a psycholics conference in Miami

1013
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: last month, like, there's almost no black people there. There's

1014
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: a few, right, But I'm just saying there's something there.

1015
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: So tell me about you and and and magic mushrooms.

1016
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: I'm Black people don't like hallucinate, but I know what.

1017
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: The mushrooms are becoming big around cannabis users because that's

1018
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 1: on the that's on learned the positive side of mushrooms

1019
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,479
Speaker 1: as well. I know one guy, his daughter was going

1020
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 1: through a phase, but she wouldn't talk, she wouldn't say

1021
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: anything to him, you know, And just one day he

1022
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:13,959
Speaker 1: took a small piece and gave it to his daughter.

1023
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 1: He said, the conversation he had with his daughter for

1024
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: the for the next two days had them both in tears.

1025
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: And she she said things to him that she never

1026
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: would probably would have got out if he would have

1027
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 1: gave it the mushroom, you know, take ten minutes, lady,

1028
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: she she was a different person. So I know what

1029
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: that did for him, and I know what that did

1030
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 1: for his daughter in a relationship, and I know that

1031
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: means more than him than anything. So that was one

1032
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: positive effect of it, you know. And and like I said,

1033
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people that's in the cannabis

1034
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: space are starting to get involved with things like mushrooms

1035
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: because they're starting to see the positive effects of it.

1036
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: And some people like the way that uh it brings

1037
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: them down and gives them a relaxation more than cannabis

1038
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: who listens. Stack, I really appreciate your taking the time

1039
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: to be on the show with me. I understand you're

1040
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: you're getting married pretty soon, so Marcel's tough on that.

1041
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: I respect the work that you're doing with the podcast,

1042
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: the way you're speaking out in the cannabis issue, the

1043
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: way you're getting involved in the racial justice session around

1044
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: George Floyd. So so just thanks ever so much for

1045
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: doing what you're doing. More power to you. Please keep

1046
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: it up and God bless all right, my man, any time,

1047
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: Thanks for having We love to hear from our listeners.

1048
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: If you'd like to share your own stories, comments and ideas,

1049
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: then leave us a message at one eight three three

1050
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 1: seven seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero,

1051
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: or you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot

1052
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: com or find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man.

1053
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: You can also find contact information in our show notes.

1054
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 1: Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures.

1055
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Noham

1056
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden,

1057
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geese, This and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures,

1058
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio, and

1059
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 1: me Ethan Edelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and

1060
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: a special thanks to ab Brio, s f Bianca Grimshaw,

1061
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: and Robert Deep. Join me next week for a conversation

1062
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: with Simon Schnapper, founder of the Jails fun which invests

1063
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: in psychedelic startups. He's been one of the principal people

1064
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: teaching me about the rapidly evolving business of psychedelics. A

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00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: family member maybe a year ago, he's like, I read

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Speaker 1: this thing and the the paper. Is this this ecstasy

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Speaker 1: and and helping vets? And I go yeah, And he's like,

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Speaker 1: is that what you do? And I'm like, that's exactly

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00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. And he's like, uh, I always thought

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00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: you were just a drug dealer. Um, so now you're

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Speaker 1: legited the eyes of the family. Yes, yes, indeed, subscribe

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00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: to Collective now see it, don't miss it.