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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome back to another new episode of

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Speaker 1: You Need Therapy podcast. My name is Kat and I

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Speaker 1: am the host. And before we get started, before we

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Speaker 1: jump into anything, I want to give the quick reminder

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Speaker 1: that I always do that although this podcast is called

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Speaker 1: You Need Therapy and I am a therapist, this is

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Speaker 1: not a substitution for therapy. And at the same time,

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Speaker 1: it might encourage you to go to therapy and it

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Speaker 1: might encourage you to talk about something specific in your

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Speaker 1: own therapeutic process. So now that we have that out

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Speaker 1: of the way, let's get into the episode. This week,

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Speaker 1: it's just me, me and you and all the other

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Speaker 1: people listening, and I have been wanting to do this

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Speaker 1: episode for a long time, so I'm excited that it's

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Speaker 1: finally here. We are going to talk about something called

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Speaker 1: the drama triangle. It's also known as the Cartman triangle.

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Speaker 1: This is a way to explain a very common pattern

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Speaker 1: of unhealthy relationship dynamics. If you're my client, you've probably

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Speaker 1: heard of this before. You've probably seen me draw the

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Speaker 1: triangle before, we've probably talked about it before. If you

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Speaker 1: are not my client, you might have still heard of

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Speaker 1: this before. And we are going to dive into the

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Speaker 1: depths of it today. It's something that can really apply

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Speaker 1: to anybody. So even if you are like I don't

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Speaker 1: know what that is and I don't have drama in

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Speaker 1: my life, one, I don't know if that's true. I

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Speaker 1: feel like there's an essence of drama in everybody's life.

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Speaker 1: But really give this episode a lesson with like your

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Speaker 1: ears wide open, because there's a lot of goodness in

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Speaker 1: it now. Like I said, this is often referred to

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Speaker 1: as the Cartman triangle because it was created by a

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Speaker 1: man named Stephen Cartman. And this is, in a nutshell,

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Speaker 1: a dynamic model of social interaction and in that the

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Speaker 1: conflict that arises within and it was like birthed out

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Speaker 1: of something called transactional analysis. This transactional analysis is based

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Speaker 1: on the idea that every one has these three ego states.

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Speaker 1: Now side note, transactional analysis would be a whole podcast that,

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Speaker 1: like I am not the expert to do alone, but

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Speaker 1: there's so much in it that it can be. So

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Speaker 1: I'm really like moving this into like the smallest little

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Speaker 1: bubble just so I can like explain this and move

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Speaker 1: onto the drama triangle. So if you're interested in it,

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Speaker 1: know that like, there's more to it. In these three

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Speaker 1: ego states, they're the parents, the adult, and the child,

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Speaker 1: and those ego states are used with different concepts to

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Speaker 1: analyze how people communicate. And in t A they use

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Speaker 1: the idea of games to describe common forms of interaction

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Speaker 1: that help the players involved. So the people in the

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Speaker 1: game express things that otherwise would be like frowned upon,

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Speaker 1: look down upon. And when I say games and t A,

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Speaker 1: they describe a game as a social interaction containing a

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Speaker 1: series of transactions that involve moving through different roles to

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Speaker 1: get to an expected outcome. Now, Stephen Cartman took this

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Speaker 1: idea and combined it with his love and interest in sports.

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Speaker 1: So he saw and he he knew that like coaches

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Speaker 1: used diagrams and pictures to explain things to the players

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Speaker 1: on a team, So he combined the social game theory

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Speaker 1: from t A with this idea of diagrams and using

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Speaker 1: that to explain interaction and created the drama triangle. Now,

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Speaker 1: as we go through this, I really want to encourage

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Speaker 1: you to just be open because while this is a

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Speaker 1: very unhealthy relationship dynamic, it's also one that we have

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Speaker 1: most likely all been a part of. Myself included. So

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Speaker 1: this is in no way something that it was created

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Speaker 1: to place blame or create shame within somebody. It is

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Speaker 1: a way to understand the patterns of communication that don't work,

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Speaker 1: so then we can go find ones that do work

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Speaker 1: and get our needs really met an authentic way. And

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons that the dynamic involved in the

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Speaker 1: drama triangle exists is because very off and we get

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Speaker 1: taught that to get our needs met, we have to

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Speaker 1: like go sideways, and what I mean by that is

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Speaker 1: you can't directly ask for what you need. This then

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Speaker 1: turns into a game and it brings in these these

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Speaker 1: ideas of manipulation. It's not even like this mean manipulation.

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Speaker 1: It's not ill intention, but it's like the only way

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Speaker 1: to get your needs met because you were taught you

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Speaker 1: can't ask directly. So basically, when we're on the drama triangle,

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Speaker 1: we're just essentially engaging in some form of manipulation. And

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Speaker 1: if we play the tape all the way through, which

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Speaker 1: you'll see, it's not going to end well, it's not

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Speaker 1: actually going to get you in the long run what

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Speaker 1: you need in a sustainable way. Now, there are three

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Speaker 1: roles in the drama triangle, because you know a triangle

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Speaker 1: has like three points, right, So there's three roles. Keep

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Speaker 1: in mind that these are roles that people unconsciously play.

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Speaker 1: There are times in life when these roles are things

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Speaker 1: that we are actually in, and for the sake of

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Speaker 1: this episode, we are not talking about those times. And

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Speaker 1: this will make more sense as I explained the roles.

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Speaker 1: But for example, one of the roles is victim, and

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Speaker 1: there are times when we are playing a victim role

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Speaker 1: in order to get our needs met in an indirect way.

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Speaker 1: That is what we're talking about today, not when we

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Speaker 1: are actually in these victim areas. Also side note, if

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Speaker 1: this stuff is confusing you at any point today, then

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Speaker 1: I want you to know that you're probably understanding it

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Speaker 1: at the same time that you're confused, because this is

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Speaker 1: chaotic and it's a chaotic way to interact and it

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Speaker 1: feels that way when you're in it. So if you're

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Speaker 1: listening and you're like, that sounds chaotic, what I can't

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Speaker 1: keep up, well, you're probably getting it because that's what

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Speaker 1: it is. So let's go back to the roles. The

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Speaker 1: three roles. We have a persecutor, we have a rescuer,

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Speaker 1: and then we have the victim. And I went to

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Speaker 1: this training years ago. I wish I could remember the facilitator,

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Speaker 1: but she was explaining something and she was using this

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Speaker 1: as the basis of it, and she created three different

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Speaker 1: names that she uses when she explains the drama triangle

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Speaker 1: to families, and that is for the persecutor she uses

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Speaker 1: blaming bully, For the rescuer she uses assi helper, and

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Speaker 1: for the victim she uses helpless baby. So if you're

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Speaker 1: explaining this to family, these are easier kind of roles

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Speaker 1: to understand. Sometimes here's one thing too, I want to mention.

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Speaker 1: Each of us usually have like a start gate position

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Speaker 1: or go to comfy spot that gets us involved in

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Speaker 1: the triangle. However, what happens is there ends up being

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Speaker 1: this competition to eventually be the victim, which maybe right

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Speaker 1: now you're like, oh, why would I want to be that?

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Speaker 1: But hang on and it will definitely become more clear.

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Speaker 1: But just know that, like even if we jump on

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Speaker 1: here as a rescuer, a lot of times we will

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Speaker 1: end up in a victim role no matter what. Now,

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Speaker 1: each role has its own benefits and each role has

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Speaker 1: its own rewards. Each one also has its own problematic features.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to go into each one and identify those.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with the persecutor or the blaming bully.

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Speaker 1: So this seems to be like everyone's least favorite, but

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Speaker 1: also it isn't that hard to find yourself here, especially

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Speaker 1: after you've been on the triangle for a little bit.

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Speaker 1: The persecutor or the blaming bully causes a significant amount

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Speaker 1: of damage, but they do not take responsibility, to take

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Speaker 1: zero responsibility for that damage. They're essentially labeled the bad guy.

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Speaker 1: These people are more controlling, they tend to be more angry,

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Speaker 1: and their job is to keep the victim oppressed. They

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Speaker 1: can't be vulnerable because if they do, then they risk

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Speaker 1: being a victim themselves. What they'll do is they'll yell,

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Speaker 1: they're criticized, but they don't actually help fix the problem.

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Speaker 1: Their role is not to fix the problem. They essentially

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Speaker 1: keep the problem going. And this person always needs to

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Speaker 1: be right. The people that jump into her like start gay.

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Speaker 1: They can seem very narcissistic there. They are literally bullies,

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Speaker 1: and they're also tend to be pretty defensive. This and

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Speaker 1: if we're talking about those ego states we were talking about,

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Speaker 1: this one kind of aligns with the critical parent. So

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Speaker 1: the next role is the rescuer role. And I know

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Speaker 1: this one sounds nice. You're like, if I had to

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Speaker 1: be one, I would be the rescuer and to be

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Speaker 1: honest in a healthy way that is not involved in

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Speaker 1: this aim. It's okay to rescue somebody and like we

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Speaker 1: can be helpers and do all of that in an

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Speaker 1: okay way, but when we're talking about the rescuer here,

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Speaker 1: it's really not okay. And this is why the rescuer

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Speaker 1: known really as like the nice guy. Right, So they

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Speaker 1: do take on the good cop role here, adjacent to

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Speaker 1: the bad cop role of the persecutor. This role involves

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Speaker 1: always helping and always trying to fix the victim who

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Speaker 1: never seems to get fixed. Now more than likely, this

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Speaker 1: is a good person, right. Initially this is like a

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Speaker 1: good person, good intentions, but it becomes problematic when they

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Speaker 1: end up draining themselves. So they will like give, give, give, give, give, give,

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Speaker 1: give to save the victim, and they end up neglecting

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Speaker 1: their own needs in their own life and they become

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Speaker 1: like this martyr and it's kind of like your classic

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Speaker 1: like codependent in a sense. This role allows people to

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Speaker 1: feel important and self righteous, right, because if I'm the rescuer,

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Speaker 1: I feel pretty good about my self and it kind

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Speaker 1: of like clears and like feeds your ego. The problem, though,

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Speaker 1: is the attempt to fix the problem, which is the victim,

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Speaker 1: doesn't actually work, and then the victim becomes the persecutor

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Speaker 1: and can end up blaming the rescuer because it's never

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Speaker 1: the victim's fault. And then the rescuer becomes a victim

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Speaker 1: themselves and will say something along the lines of like

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Speaker 1: I was only trying to help, like this is not

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Speaker 1: my fault, and then somebody has to come rescue the

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Speaker 1: initial rescuer, and it becomes a whole mess, which we'll

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Speaker 1: get into like the dance, and I'll give you an

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Speaker 1: example as we go on. Like I said, these people

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Speaker 1: work really hard to help and caretake, and they end

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Speaker 1: up neglecting their own needs. And they can use guilt

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Speaker 1: to keep the victims dependent on them, or they'll end

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Speaker 1: up using guilt towards themselves to keep themselves on the role,

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Speaker 1: like they'll guilt trip themselves to keep themselves in the

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Speaker 1: rescuer role. To stay on this triangle. Rescuers usually like overworked,

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Speaker 1: the usually pretty tired, and they can get pretty straight,

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Speaker 1: and that's what kind of like gets them into the

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Speaker 1: persecutor spot. Now let's focus on the victim for a

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Speaker 1: little bit. This is like the star of the show

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Speaker 1: because everyone is really fighting for this role, even if

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Speaker 1: that they don't think they are or they don't really

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Speaker 1: want it, they really are fighting for it. Now the

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Speaker 1: drama trigal becomes this game when you play the role

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Speaker 1: of the victim, even if you are not a victim.

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Speaker 1: Like I said earlier before we got into all this,

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Speaker 1: this is adjacent to the role of the wounded inner child.

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Speaker 1: If we go back to those ego states from t A,

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Speaker 1: everyone really wants to say it's not my fault. Everyone

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Speaker 1: really wants to be able to claim zero responsibility because

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Speaker 1: I kind of want to pause and ask you why

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Speaker 1: you think that, but I'm just gonna tell you this

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Speaker 1: is because then they don't have to do anything. They

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Speaker 1: can be very carefree. They can like deny responsibility for

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Speaker 1: their circumstances or their ability to change their circumstances. And

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Speaker 1: while that might be like I wouldn't want that, Like

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Speaker 1: I don't like feeling stuck. What people do like feeling

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Speaker 1: is that they don't have to do the hard work

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Speaker 1: to get unstuck, because a lot of times to get

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Speaker 1: out of this victim's stance or this victim place, you're

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Speaker 1: going to have to do something that goes against some

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Speaker 1: of the rules and roles and norms that you've been

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Speaker 1: shown growing up. What can be really frustrating for the

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Speaker 1: rescuer is that a lot of times anything anyone says

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Speaker 1: to the victim is not going to work. They'll always

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Speaker 1: have an excuse, always, always, always, always that can't do that,

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Speaker 1: that won't work. I've already tried that. No, I can't

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Speaker 1: like a lot of that. When we're here, it's hard

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Speaker 1: to own our own behaviors. And if you can stay here,

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Speaker 1: like I said, then you don't have to do anything.

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Speaker 1: And that sounds really nice to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: The victim really doesn't actually want to do anything. They

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Speaker 1: may not acknowledge that. Most people will not acknowledge that,

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Speaker 1: but it's also true at the same time, and when

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Speaker 1: somebody tells them what to do like I said, they

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Speaker 1: will find an excuse so they can stay there. And

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Speaker 1: if you are a rescuer, this is so painful and

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Speaker 1: you will wear yourself out because of this, often to

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Speaker 1: the point where you can just get completely fed up,

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Speaker 1: and then you become a persecutor, and then you blame

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Speaker 1: the victim for you acting now, and then you're the

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Speaker 1: victim because you can't help it, and because you can't

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Speaker 1: help the original victim help themselves, and then the original

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Speaker 1: victim becomes responsible for caretaking the original rescuers feelings. But

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Speaker 1: are we confused yet? Do we feel kaoto cat? Probably? Now? Okay,

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Speaker 1: back to the victim. They will go out and look

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Speaker 1: for a savior, so they are like on the hunt

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Speaker 1: for them. They will not say that, it will not

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Speaker 1: be blatant again, but they will do that. And if

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Speaker 1: someone refuses or fails to do so, then it puts

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Speaker 1: them in a persecutor role. If the person that they've

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Speaker 1: chosen to be the rescuer or the person that chooses

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Speaker 1: to rescue isn't able to rescue them, then the victim

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Speaker 1: turns them into a persecutor. Here's the thing. They don't

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Speaker 1: want to just be validated for their experience. They want

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Speaker 1: somebody to fix them. Right. The validation isn't enough. It's

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Speaker 1: like okay, yeah, I know, and do something about it.

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Speaker 1: Here's the thing about being a victim, though, When you

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Speaker 1: are in the victim role. When you get in that role,

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Speaker 1: you get to a spot where you can actually get

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Speaker 1: your needs met without directly asking for that to be done. So,

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Speaker 1: if you were one of those people who grew up

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Speaker 1: in an experience were directly asking for your needs or

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Speaker 1: asking for what you want or any of that wasn't okay.

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Speaker 1: This gets you to a place where, like, it feels

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Speaker 1: like you can finally get what you need. This is

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Speaker 1: why it's such a coveted position. Now, not all victims

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Speaker 1: are created equal. There are different kinds of victims. There's

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Speaker 1: two main ones I want to explain. One the pathetic victim.

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Speaker 1: They take on the more like woll is me type

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Speaker 1: of role, Like they have this vibe of like, oh

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Speaker 1: life again, life happens to me. I can't help it.

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Speaker 1: It's so sad and you it's kind of like those

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Speaker 1: people that Depending on who you are, it's either the

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Speaker 1: people that you're like, oh I cannot stand that, or

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, he feels so bad for them, I

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Speaker 1: want I would do anything for them. Then you have

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Speaker 1: the angry victim. This one like low key, tries to

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Speaker 1: appear very powerful and uses more of like a guilt

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Speaker 1: and shame tactic to help get people to do what

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Speaker 1: they need them to do. Now, regardless of either of those,

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Speaker 1: these players in the game both want there to be

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Speaker 1: someone else to blame for their circumstances, and they are

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Speaker 1: literally fishing for a rescuer and hoping for them to

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Speaker 1: come like take the bait of whatever it is that

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Speaker 1: they're putting out there. So the game, those are the roles.

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Speaker 1: The game that keeps this triangle in action is basically

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Speaker 1: rotating through these roles, which are essentially learned from the

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Speaker 1: individuals like family of origin, like the family, and the

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Speaker 1: like the group of people that you grew up with.

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Speaker 1: What gives the triangle a lot of power and significance

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Speaker 1: and creates a dynamic where people are just cycling through

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Speaker 1: the roles and never getting out of this is that

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Speaker 1: victims depend on a savior. Rescuers then like long for

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Speaker 1: like a basket case and somebody that they can like

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Speaker 1: go and help and fix, and persecutors need to scapegoat.

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Speaker 1: They're all using each other to get their own needs

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Speaker 1: met in a very indirect way, and there are payoffs

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Speaker 1: and there are costs for this. So some of the

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Speaker 1: payoffs the victim, they will get taken care of right,

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Speaker 1: someone will care about them, They'll get some kind of

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Speaker 1: need met in that the rescuers they're going to feel

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Speaker 1: good like they get to feel like to get some

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Speaker 1: self worth because they get to help and make a difference,

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Speaker 1: and the persecutors they get to feel superior. So if

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Speaker 1: there's somebody that feels really low and bad about themselves,

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Speaker 1: this is a way for them to like get above.

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Speaker 1: And this is why I really like that name, the

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Speaker 1: blaming bully, because this is like what we know about

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Speaker 1: bullies is like I know, growing up, I thought the

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Speaker 1: bullies were the people that like felt really good about themselves.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of times bullies are people that feel

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Speaker 1: really icky about themselves and they have to put people

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Speaker 1: down to feel better about who they are. They have

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Speaker 1: to be above somebody they can't be even because they

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Speaker 1: definitely feel below. However, like I said, there's also a

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Speaker 1: cost even though there are benefits, And the cost here

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Speaker 1: is that this universally perpetuates an unhealthy relational dynamic and

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Speaker 1: you will never actually get your needs met authentically for

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Speaker 1: a sustainable period of time, and you're going to have

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Speaker 1: to keep engaging in this unhealthy pattern to have your

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Speaker 1: needs met again, if this is how you get them met. Now,

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Speaker 1: this can become like a trap at the same time,

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Speaker 1: because the players here are acting all these things out

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Speaker 1: to meet personal needs, and they very seldom are able

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Speaker 1: to like zoom out see the whole picture and see

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Speaker 1: how they are actually keeping this cycle and play. It

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Speaker 1: feels like they have to play the game to get

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Speaker 1: their needs met. But what they don't realize is that

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Speaker 1: they're part of the reason that they have to play

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Speaker 1: the game to get their needs met. And if they

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Speaker 1: zoomed out and saw their role, they could get off

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Speaker 1: of this triangle. And we're going to talk about that. Now.

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Speaker 1: We can trace a lot of the natural tendency to

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Speaker 1: keep this going back to this idea called the victim consciousness,

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Speaker 1: which is something that, along with transactional analysis, could be

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Speaker 1: its whole owned podcast. So I'm not going to talk

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Speaker 1: a lot about it, but I am going to give

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Speaker 1: you in a nutshell what it is. So in short,

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Speaker 1: this is the experience of like life happening to you

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Speaker 1: versus you playing an active role in your life. And

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Speaker 1: this doesn't just apply to you when something bad happens,

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Speaker 1: It applies to you when something good happens to like

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Speaker 1: you can trace back good things to like oh I

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Speaker 1: was just lucky versus like I worked really hard or

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Speaker 1: I am really good at this, where I deserve this.

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Speaker 1: It just as kind of like, oh it just happened.

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Speaker 1: I don't really know. It's a very helpless and hopeless

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Speaker 1: way to live. But also it lacks that responsibility, which

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Speaker 1: is something that is very attractive to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: So with victim consciousness and play competition for the victim

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Speaker 1: role helps keep the triangle alive. Each player secretly strategizes

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Speaker 1: like some kind of way to get into that role because,

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Speaker 1: like I said, in the victim role, that's when you

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Speaker 1: actually get to have those like real needs met without

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Speaker 1: directly having to ask, and then you complain other people

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Speaker 1: if it doesn't work out right. This is most evident

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Speaker 1: in these dysfunctional families where it was not okay for

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Speaker 1: directly asking for what you need, and directly asking for

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Speaker 1: what you need would like result in something like opposite

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Speaker 1: of really what you were looking for. It could be shame,

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Speaker 1: it could be guilt. It could just be like being

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Speaker 1: shown over and over again that like that's not okay

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Speaker 1: or that that's not possible. It doesn't work out, so

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Speaker 1: you stop doing it and you find another way to

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Speaker 1: do it. And often this is the case because in

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Speaker 1: these families whatever was needed was like scarce or wasn't

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Speaker 1: very present, it was hard to find, meaning that there

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Speaker 1: is this feeling that there's not enough of what people

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Speaker 1: are are longing for to go around, so you can't

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Speaker 1: ask for it because it's almost like that would be

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Speaker 1: a little selfish and that would elicit some kind of panic. Right.

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Speaker 1: This is also the result of messages we receive in

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Speaker 1: our culture of what is okay and what isn't okay

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Speaker 1: to ask for? What roles are we supposed to play,

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Speaker 1: and how are we supposed to play those roles? For example,

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Speaker 1: gender roles have a huge impact on women's feelings and

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Speaker 1: their ability and right to be like assertive and just

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Speaker 1: like be direct. So what happens is a lot of

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Speaker 1: times women can become more passive and it can feel

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Speaker 1: more comfortable playing like a victim in order to get

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Speaker 1: whatever it is that they need or they're looking for.

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Speaker 1: And as I'm saying this, the first thing that's jumping

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Speaker 1: into my head is this idea of playing dumb in

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Speaker 1: order to get like a need of attention met by

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Speaker 1: let's say a man, while men they are so allowed

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Speaker 1: to be assert of and they may meet their need

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Speaker 1: of like self worth and validation by rescuing a woman

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Speaker 1: from their inability to use, like let's say a hammer. Right,

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Speaker 1: so men are allowed to be assertive and we can

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Speaker 1: fix things and we can build things, and so like

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Speaker 1: they might get this need met of self worth and

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Speaker 1: validation and be needed by playing into a woman's role

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Speaker 1: where they're like, oh, I can't I don't know how

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Speaker 1: to do that. I don't know why I made up

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Speaker 1: the woman's sound like that, but like that's sometimes how

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Speaker 1: it sounds. And at the same time that woman might

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Speaker 1: be playing a role. She might totally know how to

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Speaker 1: use a hammer and how to drill something in, how

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Speaker 1: to do this, and how to do that, But to

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Speaker 1: get that attention, she has to play herself down and

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Speaker 1: can't be assertive because the man wants to be assertive,

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Speaker 1: so then it invites him in and then there he

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Speaker 1: gets worth, she gets attention. They both get some kind

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Speaker 1: of weird and authentic connection, kind of like the damsel

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Speaker 1: in distress kind of ideas. What I just tried to explain,

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Speaker 1: so I want to give an example of how these

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Speaker 1: roles rotate really quickly and how you can play like

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Speaker 1: a bunch of different roles. So I want to give

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Speaker 1: you an example of what these roles can look like

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Speaker 1: when they move around and when there's a bunch of

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Speaker 1: people on the triangle and they're all shifting roles based

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Speaker 1: on what's happening in the situation. So I'm taking this example.

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Speaker 1: I did not come up with this. This comes from

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Speaker 1: the book How to Break Free of the Drama Triangle

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Speaker 1: and Victim Consciousness, and it's written by Barry K. Winehold

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00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 1: and Janet B. Winehold. And this book is awesome and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the information from this podcast is actually

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00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 1: from this book. So if you want more, I would

408
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,159
Speaker 1: go get this book, and I would also read it

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00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 1: slowly because it's a lot of information as a lot

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Speaker 1: of heavy information. But here is an example of a

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00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,200
Speaker 1: family in the drama triangle. They also break these into acts.

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Speaker 1: There's six acts. This is Act one. Dad comes home

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Speaker 1: from work to find his children in the family room

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Speaker 1: watching television and eating snacks. MoMA is in the kitchen

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00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 1: drinking a cup of coffee and reading the newspaper. This

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00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 1: domestic scene does not match the expectations that Dad had

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Speaker 1: on his drive home. He fantasized that the house would

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Speaker 1: be quiet, the children would be in their rooms doing homework,

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00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 1: and Mom would have dinner prepared and maybe a cold

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Speaker 1: drink waiting for him. When Dad opens the front door,

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00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 1: he finds things are not as he imagined. He assumes

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00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,360
Speaker 1: the persecutor role when he vents his pent up frustrations

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Speaker 1: from work at the children. This is in quotes, You're

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Speaker 1: supposed to be in your rooms doing your homework. You

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Speaker 1: know the rules. The children look up from the television,

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00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,919
Speaker 1: stunned by Dad's sharp tone. Feeling persecuted by father, they

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00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 1: respond as victims, well, Mom said it was okay for

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Speaker 1: us to watch TV. Mom then comes to the living

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Speaker 1: room after hearing the raised voices and the children looked

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Speaker 1: to their mother for help. She assumes the role as

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00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 1: the rescuer when she says to Dad, the kids were

432
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: just relaxing after being at school all day. This is

433
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: end of act one. Act two. The second act opens

434
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 1: at the point where Mom moves from the rescuer to

435
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: the persecutor role and attacks Dad. Why do you have

436
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: to come home every night? And yell at the kids?

437
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 1: Dad rotates into the victim role, and the children quickly

438
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 1: pick up the rescuer role. They turn off the TV

439
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: and say, we're going to our room store homework. This

440
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: is the end of act two. Act three. Dad shifts

441
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: to the persecutor role and attacks mom. Why in the

442
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: heck did you let the kids watch TV? And why

443
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 1: don't you have dinner ready? What have you been doing

444
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: since you got home from work? You knew I'd be hungry.

445
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: Mom now rotates into the victim role. Meanwhile, the daughter,

446
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: here's her parents arguing in the kitchen, and she comes

447
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 1: running in to rescue. I'll help you get dinner ready mom.

448
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: End of act three, Act four. Dad, sensing that he

449
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 1: looks like the bad guy, tries to rescue by saying,

450
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 1: why don't we all just order a pizza or something

451
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: and not worry about getting dinner ready. Act five, Mom,

452
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 1: who hasn't yet been the victim, overrides Dad's victim effort

453
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: by claiming the super victim or martyr role. She says,

454
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 1: I'm perfectly capable of getting dinner. Besides, it's too late

455
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 1: for pizza. I already defrosted the meat for dinner, and

456
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 1: we can't afford to let it go to waste. Acts six,

457
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: Mom switches into the persecutor role and Dad to the

458
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 1: victim when she says to him, all you can think

459
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 1: of is something that is going to cost us more money.

460
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: You don't have her pitch in to help get dinner ready,

461
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: You just complain about it not being ready. Act seven.

462
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: At this point, Dad can shift either to victim or

463
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: super persecutor. He decides to rage and explode into persecutors

464
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: so he can vent even more of his feelings from

465
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: his frustrating day. I'm tired of always being the bad guy.

466
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,719
Speaker 1: I'm going to go watch TV. I don't even want

467
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: any dinner. He then withdraws to the family room as

468
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 1: the angry victim. So in that example, you can see

469
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: how these roles just kind of feed off of each other,

470
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: and everybody's kind of fighting to get their needs met,

471
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: but they don't really want to be responsible for getting

472
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: those needs met. And sometimes the need can just be

473
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: like expressing your emotions. So Dad needed event about his

474
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: frustrating day. He didn't just do that, He took it

475
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 1: out in a very indirect way. So I wonder if

476
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 1: you kind of look at that and look at how

477
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: you're interacting in your life, you could probably pick up

478
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: how this happens. You're also going to be picking up

479
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: now that you know about this on how this is

480
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: happening in TV's shows or within your friends or any

481
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: of that. You're going to see it literally everywhere. And

482
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: like I said, the main problem with this game is

483
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: that the dynamic won't actually work for you in the

484
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 1: long run. It's a very short term, not great way

485
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: to get a need met in the moment, but it

486
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: creates more conflict really and while you're gonna be able

487
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 1: to pick this up more often in your own life,

488
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: recognizing it isn't going to actually change it. It is

489
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: a strong first step. So the first step of getting

490
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: out of this dynamic is definitely recognizing and knowing that

491
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: I'm on it, and at the same time recognizing that

492
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 1: you can only control yourself. You can't fix or change

493
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 1: someone else. And when we try to do that, we

494
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: end up a lot of times just making a bad

495
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: situation worse. For example, imagine trying to get a persecutor

496
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 1: to back off. They usually just become defensive and they'll

497
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: switch them into a different role and then to you

498
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: into a different role. And if you focus less on

499
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: trying to get the persecutor to back off and focus

500
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: more on how you're actually impact. Being that dynamic, you're

501
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: going to feel a lot better. And while we've already

502
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: established that when we get onto this triangle, we usually

503
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: end up playing more than one role, there's also this

504
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: thing that happens where you can see yourself as one

505
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: role and somebody else can see you as a completely

506
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: other role. A persecutor might think that they are rescuing,

507
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: but someone might see them as persecuting them and feel

508
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: victimized by them. You can see this all of the

509
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: time in politics and in religion, Like there might be

510
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: somebody who like thinks that they're going to implement this

511
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,479
Speaker 1: awesome policy and help all these people, but a lot

512
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: of people might feel oppressed by them, so they see

513
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: this person that is trying to be a rescuer actually

514
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: as a persecutor. And I actually have a really good

515
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: example of this from my own life. Now for the

516
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 1: sake of this, I've kind of embellished like a little

517
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: bit of this scenario, but the gist of it is true.

518
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: And what happened was years ago, after I graduated grad school,

519
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: I had all of this student loan debt, and I

520
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: didn't know what the heck to do with it. It's

521
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: very confusing to me. I don't understand money. So I

522
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: reach out to my dad, who in my head, knows

523
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: how to do that stuff. He'll know how to help me.

524
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: He'll be somebody that can tell me or show me

525
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: the way to help figure out how to best pay

526
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: my student loans off. There is backstory to this, in

527
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: the sense that I could have gone to grad school

528
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: for free, and I chose not to do that, and

529
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: my dad made it obvious that he thought that was

530
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: not the best decision for me, and I understand in

531
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: my old age now why he felt that way. In

532
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: my like angst of a young twenty something, I was like,

533
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: I will do what I want. But that was a backstory.

534
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: So there was this part of him who was like,

535
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: you really shouldn't have this in the first place. But

536
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: I wanted my dad to rescue me, and I wanted

537
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: him to help me, and I wanted to feel cared

538
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: for by my dad and helped and connected by my dad.

539
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: So I reached out. He set me up with this

540
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: person to talk me through finances and how to pay

541
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: these back. I'm going to skip a lot because I

542
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: just don't think it's important for me to relive this.

543
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: But the meeting that was set up. I ended that

544
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,239
Speaker 1: meeting hysterical, complete tears. There are a lot of things

545
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: said in that meeting that I didn't appreciate. I felt

546
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: very hurt. And what had happened is I chose to

547
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: ask somebody to help me do something when I already

548
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: knew that our views did not align. And my dad

549
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: encouraged me to meet with somebody whose views aligned with

550
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: his views, and so my views did not align with

551
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: this person. So I got on this triangle as a victim,

552
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: and I wanted my dad to rescue me. And I

553
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: think that my dad really did think he was helping

554
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: me and this would be the best way to do it.

555
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: He really thought he was playing this rescuer role. I

556
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: wanted my dad to be a white knight. He probably

557
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: wanted to be that white knight for me because I

558
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: know he loves me and cares about me, and I

559
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: saw him as a persecutor. So what did I do

560
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: after that meeting? I called my mom and I just

561
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: got one more person on this drugle with me playing

562
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: this victim role than I went to my mom to

563
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: be the rescuer Mom, and I don't know. What I

564
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: said was something like, Mom, I can't believe what Dad did.

565
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: And I was like hysterical and all this stuff, and

566
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: I put my mom in this really awkward position where

567
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: she can either rescue me and in her rescue and

568
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: she's gonna have to persecute my dad, or she can

569
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: persecute me and then rescue my dad. And it really

570
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: wasn't fair. So in the end, my mom meant up

571
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: being a victim because she can't say the right thing,

572
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: and then I get mad at her, and then I'm

573
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: like the super victim, and it's a whole mess, a

574
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: whole mess, when the reality was I should have just

575
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: been honest about what I was asking for, and I

576
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: probably should not have asked my dad to help me

577
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: with something that I knew we did not agree on.

578
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: Now here's the thing. There's a way to get off

579
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: of this trap and get out of this game. And

580
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: I used some of these things that I'm about to

581
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: tell you to get out of that dynamic with my dad,

582
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: and that kind of situation has never happened again because

583
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: of this. So here's how you get out. We already

584
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,479
Speaker 1: established that noticing it is key and noticing your role

585
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: and how you keep it going. Then there's three other

586
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: things that I suggest, So one is noticing, noticing your

587
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: role all of that. So I noticed that, like, woe,

588
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: I did this thing. I should have never asked for this.

589
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: I am playing a game here. I am trying to

590
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: be a victim. I am trying to have people help

591
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: me because life is too hard and I don't want

592
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: to do it myself or whatever it was for me

593
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: at that point. So the second thing that we need

594
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: to do, and that so recognize her on it create

595
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: some boundaries where do we need to stop letting people

596
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: and hoping things will be different this time? Right? That

597
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: whole idea of like where do we need to stop

598
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: going to the hardware looking for bread? So my dad

599
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: can do a lot of things for me, A lot

600
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: of things, a lot of really awesome things. He is

601
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: an awesome dad. That is not something that I need

602
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: to ask him to help me with finances. I'm not

603
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: going to get the love and care and validation that

604
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: I need from my dad by having a conversation about

605
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: how I should spend and invest my money. I'm not

606
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: gonna happen. So I need to stop going to the

607
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: hard worst or looking for bread, and I need to

608
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: go to the hardware store to get hardware, and I

609
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: need to go to the bread store to get bread,

610
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: or I guess maybe the grocery store, but I guess

611
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: there could be a bread store. There is a bread store.

612
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: We went to college anyway, you know what I mean.

613
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: So the boundaries number three is this one's really tough.

614
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: Boundaries are tough, but this one is also really tough.

615
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: We have to start lowering our expectations. So where do

616
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: we need to accept people for who they are and

617
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: not what we want them to be? Because when we

618
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: can see people for really truly who they actually are,

619
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: we get to appreciate what they do offer us. We

620
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: get to appreciate all the things we love about them,

621
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: instead of really getting piste off over and over and

622
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: over and hurt over and over and over about the

623
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: things that they are not. So where can we lean

624
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: in to who they are and stop trying to make

625
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: them into somebody that they aren't. And going back to

626
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: that same idea with my dad, there are so many

627
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: things about him that I love. There's so many things

628
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: about him that I don't know, like how to survive

629
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: of without like he is a again wonderful dad, But

630
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: I couldn't see that fully in that moment because all

631
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: I was focused on is this one thing that I

632
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: wanted him to be able to do that he couldn't do,

633
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: which in the long run, everybody has shortcomings. Everybody is

634
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: not gonna be able to do at all and meet

635
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: at all. So how where do we need to lower expectations?

636
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: And then for self care because all of this is

637
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: very hard, we need some self care. Like it's hard

638
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: to lower expectations, it's hard to accept people, it's hard

639
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: to accept that we aren't going to get everything that

640
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: we want out of life the way we want to

641
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: want it. It's hard, It's true, but it's hard. And

642
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: I used a kind of low stakes example here, right,

643
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: So this example with my dad. I still have a

644
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: really awesome relationship with my dad, and this was a

645
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: bump in the road, but it did not like ruin

646
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: our relationship and I didn't have to like let go

647
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: of a full relationship with him. So when I am

648
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: talking about this, I know that in some of your lives,

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00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,479
Speaker 1: in some areas of my life, this was a lot

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00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: bigger than that, And so the expectations that I had

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00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: to lower felt a lot harder, and the boundaries I

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00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: had to create were a lot more difficult and sad

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00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: and scary. So this is hard stuff. It is really

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00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: hard stuff. And also, like I said, to really get

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00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: out of that victim role, we have to move out

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00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: of that idea that we can't ask for our needs directly,

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00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: and that's really tough. That is really really tough. That

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00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: we can't be direct we're going against everything we knew.

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00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: So because that's so difficult, we need to care for ourselves. Well,

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00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: we need to validate ourselves. We need to give ourselves

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00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: space and time and and some love. So self care

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00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: really important. We can't skip that one. So that is

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00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: going to wrap up this episode, and I'm sure they'll

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00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: there'll be some questions about this, so feel free to

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00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: send them. You can send them to Catherine at You

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00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: Need Therapy podcast dot com. Um Again, the book that

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00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: I really want to recommend. It's also hard to read fast,

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00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: but the book is how to break free of the

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00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: drama triangle and victim consciousness. And then there's another book

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00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: by Stephen Cartman called A Game Free Life that you

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00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: might be interested in. Both of those books will probably

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00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: be very helpful if you want to learn more about this.

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00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: I do not suggest doing a Google search on this,

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00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: because I actually Google searched it and a lot of

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00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: the stuff that I found, some of it was good

676
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: and helpful and true. Some of it I was like,

677
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: this seems weird or off or I don't know what

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00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: this means, and so I recommend like going to the

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00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: experts about this, and so those two books I really

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00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: love and highly recommend them. I hope that this was helpful.

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00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: And again, if you felt chaotic, it's because this stuff

682
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: is chaotic, so you're probably getting it exactly how it is.

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00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 1: So again, I hope this was helpful. If you have questions,

684
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: send them. If you want to follow me, you can

685
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: do that on Instagram at cat dot de fata. If

686
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: you want to follow the podcast, you can do that

687
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: at You Need Therapy podcast. And if you want to

688
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: give a review to the podcast, if you just haven't

689
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 1: yet and it's been something that has been helpful to you,

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00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: I want to ask this favor, and that is to

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00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: scroll to the bottom of Apple Podcasts and rate and

692
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: review this pretty pretty pretty please. I hope you guys

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00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: have the day the week, the hour that you need

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00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: to have and I will talk to you guys on

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00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: Wednesday for couch Talks. Bye, guys,