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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is

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Speaker 1: advised by the way.

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Speaker 2: Her business definitely was illegal. She definitely was a criminal,

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Speaker 2: but first she was a businesswoman.

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Speaker 3: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 3: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 3: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 3: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 3: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 3: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 3: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious.

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Speaker 1: True crime cases.

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Speaker 3: This is about the choices writers make, both good and bad,

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Speaker 3: and it's a deep dive into the unpublished details behind

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Speaker 3: their stories. This week on Wicked Words, we're traveling back

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Speaker 3: to nineteen twenty three Harlem and it's see the world

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Speaker 3: of gambling and racketeering. Author Mary Kay McBrayer tells me

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Speaker 3: about Stephanie Saint Clair. She was one of the only

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Speaker 3: female crime bosses in the city. Madame Queen was also

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Speaker 3: a black, self made business woman and a legend. Let's

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Speaker 3: just start with the kind of themes of this book.

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Speaker 3: When I talk to my editor about a book that

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Speaker 3: I might want to write, she always says, why does

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Speaker 3: the audience now in twenty twenty five care about this story?

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Speaker 3: What are the themes that resonate with this audience, this

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Speaker 3: current audience. What do you say about your readers and

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Speaker 3: why they think that Queene's story will be important?

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Speaker 2: Sure? I mean, I think the best question to ask about,

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Speaker 2: you know, especially nonfiction, is like who cares like and why?

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Speaker 2: So I think that's like the most important question. But

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Speaker 2: I think I think this one touches on several different

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Speaker 2: big frame narratives that are not only happening now but

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Speaker 2: are kind of like almost Joseph Campbell level of classic.

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Speaker 2: One of them is, you know, this is an immigrant story.

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Speaker 2: As Americans, we all have one, well not all of us,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of us have one. And I think

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Speaker 2: also as Americans, we really love a gangster story. And

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Speaker 2: I think the reason we love it is because it

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Speaker 2: is an American dream success that was a success against

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Speaker 2: all odds, Like they not only did it, but they

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Speaker 2: did it outside of a law that was actively trying

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Speaker 2: to prevent them from doing it. So I think that's

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons and then the third one, of course,

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Speaker 2: is like this is an element of American history and

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Speaker 2: black history that you know, almost got lost. And I

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Speaker 2: think it's an important story because she was a West

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Speaker 2: Indian immigrant in the nineteen twenties and thirties when that's

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Speaker 2: that's when her business was taking off, and we don't

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Speaker 2: hear about that story very much. Also, like she held

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Speaker 2: her own against some of the really well known names

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Speaker 2: of gangsters in that period. So those are I think

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Speaker 2: some themes that made it stand out to me. And

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Speaker 2: I think if anyone is interested in any of those

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Speaker 2: big three things, I think that they would probably be

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Speaker 2: interested in this story.

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Speaker 3: I think that the cases that fall in this category,

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Speaker 3: like the al Capone stories and stuff, are fairly well,

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Speaker 3: you know, treaded at this point.

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Speaker 1: But I think that her story is unique. Now. I mean,

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Speaker 1: her official name is Stephanie Saint Clair.

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Speaker 3: Do you call her Queenie or what do you I

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Speaker 3: just called her Queenie, But we can call her whatever

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Speaker 3: you want.

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Speaker 2: We can call her whatever you want. I think she

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Speaker 2: used all of those names interchangeably, and I think she

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Speaker 2: had some added to the pot, Like some people called

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Speaker 2: her that tiger from Marseille. We had Madame Queen. We

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Speaker 2: had Madame Sinclair, Madame Stephanie Sinclair, Madam Stephanie, just Stephanie. Like,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of different options we can use it,

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Speaker 2: I mean, depending on the content, right, go back and forth.

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Speaker 3: Where do we start with her story? Do we start

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Speaker 3: in the West Indies where she's from, or wherever.

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Speaker 1: You want to start. It's fine with me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I guess I probably should say this up top.

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Speaker 2: I did do so much research on this story, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes the facts that I needed just were not there.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to historical true crime and nonfiction.

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Speaker 3: It's awful sometimes, yeah, especially I imagine for doing research

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Speaker 3: on a black woman, you know, in the nineteen twenties.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if did you have immigration papers for her?

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Speaker 2: Great question? Yes, and also they were sort of wrong.

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Speaker 2: She's a slippery person, right, like she wanted to be slippery.

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Speaker 2: She was intentionally evading having a lot of stuff on paper,

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Speaker 2: unless she was the one who put the pen to

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Speaker 2: the paper, in which case there's a lot to go on,

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Speaker 2: which is really fun. So do we have immigration papers? Yes,

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Speaker 2: sort of. She grew up in Guadeloupe and when she

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Speaker 2: was thirteen, we think her mother booked her a passage

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Speaker 2: to Montreal. Their first language was French, so it made

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Speaker 2: sense to go to Montreal. But she did go by

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Speaker 2: way of New York City, which I think is how

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Speaker 2: she kind of got the bug of you know, Harlem

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Speaker 2: is maybe a really great place to be. But yes,

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Speaker 2: so thirteen is what her birth certificate said, but the

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Speaker 2: ship manifest says twenty three. That's a big difference for

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Speaker 2: being that young. And it seems like this was an

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Speaker 2: endianjured servitude type of contract that got her to Montreal.

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Speaker 2: They did have like a big pipeline of West Indies

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Speaker 2: to Canada at the time. That was like technically no

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Speaker 2: one was allowed to immigrate from the West Indies unless

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Speaker 2: they were like a domestic servant because no one already

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Speaker 2: in Canada wanted to work for that low of wages.

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Speaker 2: So it was like, you know, a terrible story as

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Speaker 2: old as time. But I think that that's how she

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Speaker 2: got to Montreal and why she stopped in New York first.

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Speaker 2: But there was that discrepancy on the paperwork, So was

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Speaker 2: she thirteen or twenty three? Was the ledger Man just

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Speaker 2: you know, not a great clerk. Did he write it

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Speaker 2: down wrong? Did he misunderstand was it a language barrier

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Speaker 2: or was she actually just trying to come across as

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Speaker 2: twenty three because then people would take her seriously. Like,

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Speaker 2: I feel like it could be any of those, but

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Speaker 2: the most likely one is probably the last one. So

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Speaker 2: that's kind of like the first record that I was

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Speaker 2: able to access is like the sketchy one, or that

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Speaker 2: kind of brought her into Northern America.

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Speaker 1: Did she make it to Montreal and then came to

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Speaker 1: New York.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so she stopped through New York City, And I'm

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Speaker 2: thinking again, it makes sense that she would be at

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Speaker 2: a sort of sponsorship group house for you know, temporarily

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Speaker 2: while she got on her feet, like people who were

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Speaker 2: already making it in New York would help her along.

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Speaker 2: And I think that was also a requirement for immigration

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Speaker 2: at the time. But she stopped there and then went

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Speaker 2: to Montreal, where she served a two year contract as

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Speaker 2: a domestic worker, and then when her contract was up,

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Speaker 2: she was like okay, bye, and then came right back

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Speaker 2: to New York. So she worked in a home. But

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Speaker 2: it also seems like she picked up some really important

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Speaker 2: skills at that time, like dressmaking. She was a really

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Speaker 2: proficient dressmaker, and also because of her later line of work,

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Speaker 2: and because there's a lot of math in creating address

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Speaker 2: from nothing, she was really math brained, which was challenging

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Speaker 2: for me to write as a person who is not

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Speaker 2: math brained. So same, Yeah, it was fun, but it

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Speaker 2: was definitely a challenge.

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Speaker 3: So tell me about Harlem when she really I know

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Speaker 3: you said her business is starting to take off in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen twenties, but when she comes to New York,

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Speaker 3: it's in the nineteen tens.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so I can't remember the exact year off the

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Speaker 2: top of my head, but yes, she came through New York,

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Speaker 2: went to Montreal, came back to New York, and then

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Speaker 2: there were several years where she just was kind of

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Speaker 2: lay and low till about I believe nineteen twenty three,

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Speaker 2: which is when she just all of a sudden had

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Speaker 2: the best numbers bank in the city, which is a

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Speaker 2: huge deal because there were many players. They were all

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Speaker 2: West Indian and all of them were men except for her.

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Speaker 2: And just a little bit of background about like the

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Speaker 2: numbers racket, because I didn't really understand what that was.

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Speaker 2: It's almost horse betting, it's almost betting on horses, but

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Speaker 2: it was basically the lottery like today. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if this is maybe like a little bit of a spoiler,

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Speaker 2: but it is the New York State lottery now. At

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Speaker 2: the time, though, everyone and everyone pretty much every day

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Speaker 2: would put a penny on a three digit number, and

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Speaker 2: you know, some people bet the same number every time.

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Speaker 2: Some people had like dream books that they would decide

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Speaker 2: what they were going to bet on, and it came

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Speaker 2: from the last digits of the horse races. At that time.

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Speaker 2: It seems very much like a game of chance at

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Speaker 2: first glance. But when you know the law of large

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Speaker 2: numbers and you can do that kind of math in

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Speaker 2: your head, I can't, but she could, you can get

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Speaker 2: really strategic about it. So my theory is, and it's

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Speaker 2: supported by later evidence, if not directly. My theory is

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Speaker 2: that she got really good at playing the numbers and

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Speaker 2: she won at all of the major banks at the

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Speaker 2: same time. And that's relevant because this was an illegal business,

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Speaker 2: right like nobody is keeping their money in an actual bank,

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Speaker 2: which is actually you know, probably good for them because

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Speaker 2: of all the bank runs that happened later in that decade,

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Speaker 2: like it would have been kind of gone. But because

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Speaker 2: again they're all West Indian, right like they're banking offshore,

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Speaker 2: so when someone hit the numbers big for a bank,

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Speaker 2: they'd pay out, but they had to go wire it back,

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Speaker 2: so the banks would kind of shut her for a

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Speaker 2: couple of days until they could get you know, their

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Speaker 2: feedback under them. My guess is that she did that too,

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Speaker 2: like all of them at the same time, because she could.

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Speaker 2: She could do that, like her brain just worked like that.

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Speaker 2: So while they were down, right, like all of their runners,

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Speaker 2: which are the guys who actually took the numbers and

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Speaker 2: took the money back to the bank, the you know,

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Speaker 2: the illegal bank, they were all out of work right well,

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Speaker 2: while the banks were shut. It's just a few days.

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Speaker 2: But like if you can pick ups, I'd work with

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Speaker 2: this other woman whose bank just suddenly popped up, do it.

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Speaker 2: So she kind of poached all their guys while they

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Speaker 2: were down, and then she's like one of the big

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Speaker 2: players in the game.

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Speaker 3: So let's go back to you said, there's kind of

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Speaker 3: like a big jump. How does Queenie go from being

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Speaker 3: a domestic worker, you know, in Montreal then she comes

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Speaker 3: back to New York. How does she do that and

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Speaker 3: then go to something that is you said, this is illegal.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yes, so everything's illegal during prohibition by the way,

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Speaker 2: like all the stuff that people want to do for

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Speaker 2: fun is like illegal, which makes it dangerous. Like now

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Speaker 2: you know our alcohol is regulated and more fun and yeah,

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Speaker 2: more fun because nobody's watching, right, It also made it

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Speaker 2: more dangerous because nobody's regulating how much alcohol is in

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Speaker 2: your alcohol. No one's regulating like if it's going to

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Speaker 2: give you jake leg no one's regulating how you're getting

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Speaker 2: the alcohol. You know, it's horrible exploitation. It's a lot

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Speaker 2: of stuff going on that is better I think regulated

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Speaker 2: because people are going to do it, so you should

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Speaker 2: be able to be done safely. Yeah. So I think

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Speaker 2: you asked about there was a gap of how she

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Speaker 2: went from domestic work to running this illegal game.

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Speaker 3: And I mean morally, I mean, how do you go

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Speaker 3: from I mean, we don't see any bad background from

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Speaker 3: her beforehand, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We have records of her getting married in a Roman

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Speaker 2: Catholic church, which like they don't just marry people like

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Speaker 2: you gotta show and prove that you mean business if

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Speaker 2: you're getting married in a Roman Catholic church. It was

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Speaker 2: also like a few days after her eighteenth birthday, so

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Speaker 2: it seems to me like somewhat of a convenience. Again,

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Speaker 2: maybe not, but we don't know about him any at

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Speaker 2: all later in her life. So and they never got

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Speaker 2: formally divorced, So there's that also, like you do have

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Speaker 2: to be an honest person right to work in someone's

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Speaker 2: home period. You can't be a thief, like they would

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Speaker 2: know immediately and you would get fired and then no

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Speaker 2: one would give you a reference and that would be

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Speaker 2: the end of that career. So we know that she

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Speaker 2: was at least a good person to work for you

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Speaker 2: that there's no ay on that. And we know that

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Speaker 2: she was a hard worker because it's hard to make

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Speaker 2: money in those fields now then very very challenging, so

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Speaker 2: somehow she knew how to manage her money like she

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Speaker 2: was doing it. I also think that because it wasn't

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Speaker 2: really a game of chance, it wasn't really gambling, like

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Speaker 2: if you think gambling is bad, like is a sin potentially,

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Speaker 2: but this is not really gambling. It's strategy. Then it's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, with one eye closed, I can get there,

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Speaker 2: you know, like I don't see anything wrong with that.

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Speaker 2: And then I think another important thing to remember about

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Speaker 2: her in contrast to all of her contemporaries is that

244
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Speaker 2: she was a business woman first, Like she was running

245
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Speaker 2: a business and her business happened to be illegal, and

246
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Speaker 2: she got away with doing it with just you know,

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Speaker 2: paying a few bee cops for a long time just

248
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Speaker 2: to like look the other way, because no one was

249
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Speaker 2: getting hurt. Like she wasn't stealing anything. Like people were

250
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Speaker 2: having fun putting a penny, literally a penny on a

251
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Speaker 2: number and then sometimes it paid out, and then they

252
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Speaker 2: had a party and spread it back around among everybody.

253
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Speaker 2: So when I think of someone running in a legal

254
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Speaker 2: gambling racket, she's not the one, you know that pops

255
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Speaker 2: into my head as a racketeer.

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Speaker 3: You know, people must have thought it was odd that

257
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Speaker 3: it's this black woman who's running all of this, which

258
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Speaker 3: I know you say in the book was incredibly unusual,

259
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Speaker 3: unheard of really in this time.

260
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think part of the gap that we

261
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Speaker 2: were talking about, not necessarily morally, but just like what

262
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,920
Speaker 2: made her qualified to do this is that a lot

263
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Speaker 2: of people say that she worked for another bank first,

264
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Speaker 2: so that she had some name recognition and she kind

265
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Speaker 2: of learned like how the books ran and that kind

266
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Speaker 2: of thing. And although it's not written down because they

267
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,720
Speaker 2: didn't write anything down. Really, all of the evidence leads

268
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,679
Speaker 2: to that she worked for Casper Holstein, who was also

269
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Speaker 2: like a pretty good guy, Like he was a huge philanthropist.

270
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Speaker 2: He donated like towards girls dormitories. I think in the

271
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Speaker 2: British indies, he's the guy you want to make a

272
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Speaker 2: lot of money because he gives it back, if that

273
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Speaker 2: makes sense, Like he knows how to help the community

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Speaker 2: and he would put people on like he was almost

275
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Speaker 2: an angel investor and a lot of companies, And you

276
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Speaker 2: can see the similarities in her work once she kind

277
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Speaker 2: of made it, she was doing that as well. Another

278
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Speaker 2: reason why I think it's him is because his bank

279
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Speaker 2: didn't shut down, Like she didn't box him out, hmmm

280
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Speaker 2: when she boxed everyone else out. Yeah, So that's why

281
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Speaker 2: I say, like, no, it's not written down, but the

282
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,240
Speaker 2: evidence points to that this is the most likely case.

283
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Speaker 2: Plus to your credit, like who would who would bet

284
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Speaker 2: with her if she had no cred Yeah? Right, Like

285
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,240
Speaker 2: who would do that? Even a penny? Like it's you know,

286
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,320
Speaker 2: still money, right, So I think that's how do you.

287
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Speaker 3: Have any idea what her profit margins were? I mean,

288
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Speaker 3: was this thousands and thousands of dollars.

289
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Speaker 2: I wish that I did, but I do think that

290
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,480
Speaker 2: it was small enough potatoes where she could fly under

291
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:51,080
Speaker 2: the radar. Got it both with the actual government, you know,

292
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Speaker 2: like legal people who it was also Tammany Hall at

293
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Speaker 2: the time, so like they're gangsters too.

294
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Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody's everybody's corrupt.

295
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Speaker 2: Right, So it was it was small enough that she

296
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,240
Speaker 2: could hide it because she wasn't, you know, going around

297
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Speaker 2: dressed in like a zoot suit. I mean, she was

298
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Speaker 2: like classy, Like her photos are amazing, like height of glamour.

299
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Speaker 2: And she was a dressmaker too, so you know, everything

300
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,200
Speaker 2: is just too a tea like tailored to her, which

301
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,880
Speaker 2: I love when I can find photos of her because

302
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,120
Speaker 2: it's truly amazing, Like how is that a metallic dress?

303
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,720
Speaker 2: You don't even have synthetic fabrics?

304
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Speaker 3: Hardly tell me about her family back home? Does she

305
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 3: remain in contact with them in the West Indies? Does

306
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,400
Speaker 3: anybody come over at all to be with her?

307
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,720
Speaker 2: Don't. I don't think that she really had any contact

308
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,440
Speaker 2: with her family at home that I know of. She

309
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,000
Speaker 2: could have, it seems like she would have, but I don't.

310
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Speaker 2: I don't know for sure. She also, as far as

311
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Speaker 2: I know, after she got married. They didn't really have

312
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,440
Speaker 2: a relationship very long at all, but they never got divorced,

313
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,520
Speaker 2: which makes me think that, you know, she might have

314
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Speaker 2: been helping him out. There's also some discrepancy about whether

315
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,680
Speaker 2: they had a child together. There is a birth certificate,

316
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Speaker 2: but that's kind of it and it doesn't it's not

317
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,800
Speaker 2: really conclusive to say one way or the other. But

318
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Speaker 2: I think that if she had had a child, she

319
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,800
Speaker 2: would have been at least supporting him financially, so because

320
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,520
Speaker 2: that's the kind of person she was. So she might

321
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,840
Speaker 2: not have been supporting her actual family, but her community

322
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,240
Speaker 2: was very important to her, and maybe that's a reason

323
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Speaker 2: why is that she didn't have much contact with her

324
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Speaker 2: biological family.

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Speaker 3: So this bank system seems to me to be fairly easy, right.

326
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Speaker 3: They initially put the money in and then if they

327
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Speaker 3: hit the numbers, she does the payout. But is there

328
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Speaker 3: any circumstance where she felt as far as you know,

329
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Speaker 3: where she would have felt or she says she felt intimidated,

330
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Speaker 3: you know, did she talk to the wrong cop or

331
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Speaker 3: you know, I think I think we're going to get

332
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Speaker 3: into some turf, you know, wars. I don't know if

333
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,960
Speaker 3: WARS the right thing, but you know, turf wars between

334
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,120
Speaker 3: her and other organized crime members, so you know, kind

335
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,160
Speaker 3: of tell me when things ramp up a little bit

336
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Speaker 3: for her.

337
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Speaker 1: You said she's small potatoes. Right now, I think.

338
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Speaker 2: She came across as being pretty small potatoes because she

339
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,800
Speaker 2: was good at being discreet. But yeah, so to your point,

340
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,879
Speaker 2: it didn't say stay a secret very long. That she

341
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,639
Speaker 2: was kind of killing it, as you probably know, and

342
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 2: as we said, you know, gangsters don't keep their money

343
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 2: in real banks, so where was it. I think she

344
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:23,000
Speaker 2: probably also had a dressmaking front, which was actually also

345
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 2: a legitimate business, so probably it was laundered in that

346
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,800
Speaker 2: way as well. Once she got into business, it was

347
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Speaker 2: kind of tough going because she was a lady, and

348
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,840
Speaker 2: she was a woman, and she was black, and you know,

349
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Speaker 2: all of those things kind of set her at a disadvantage,

350
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Speaker 2: if you will. In the early nineteen twenties. The first

351
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,800
Speaker 2: sort of difficulty, I'll say it that way, is that

352
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,280
Speaker 2: the regular police got wind of her and they demanded

353
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Speaker 2: that she start icing them, and then she did, and

354
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Speaker 2: of course they didn't protect her from anything, like they're

355
00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,320
Speaker 2: the bad guys too, So she paid for nothing, right,

356
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,680
Speaker 2: did she just basically extortion. And then she got busted

357
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:09,959
Speaker 2: anyway because the police planted policy slips on her twice.

358
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Speaker 2: Policy slips are basically the receipts of the bets, and

359
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,320
Speaker 2: they were so silly about it, Like the way they

360
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,639
Speaker 2: did it. They broke into her apartment at four h

361
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,679
Speaker 2: nine Edgecomb, which is like the place to be in

362
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,480
Speaker 2: sugar Hill, and they tossed her apartment and they broke

363
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,440
Speaker 2: her the handle on her wardrobe, and the guy who

364
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,280
Speaker 2: smashed the window open like cut his hand, and then

365
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,680
Speaker 2: there's like blood everywhere, and it's on this box where

366
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,640
Speaker 2: she kept her cash, and the cash is gone, and

367
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 2: they in the hall closet, which shout out that she

368
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,199
Speaker 2: had a closet and night in the nineteen twenties in

369
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 2: New York City, they stashed her some fake receipts basically

370
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 2: in that closet, and then the other cops came in

371
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,880
Speaker 2: the front way and were like, we found them because

372
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,920
Speaker 2: they had just planted them, like just then. Her defense

373
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Speaker 2: was basically like I was at my bank, why would

374
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,159
Speaker 2: I take receipts home? Like why would I do that?

375
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,600
Speaker 2: If I was doing what you say that I was doing,

376
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 2: That doesn't make any sense that I would bring them

377
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,840
Speaker 2: from work to home, like, it doesn't make sense. So

378
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,360
Speaker 2: she did get busted for that. They didn't like that defense.

379
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 2: She went to prison or women's prison I think is

380
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,920
Speaker 2: what they called it, which sounds pretty rough as far

381
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 2: as work.

382
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,159
Speaker 3: Okay, so my question going back is, well, first, now

383
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,960
Speaker 3: I understand what ice means icing, so you know, paying

384
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 3: off the police, right, yes, why would the police want

385
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,080
Speaker 3: to You know, if they've got the golden goose, this

386
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 3: woman who makes a lot of money, who is paying

387
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 3: them off, why would the police want to stop that

388
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 3: by busting her to begin with? I mean, what is

389
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 3: their motivation there? You would think they'd want to keep

390
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:52,440
Speaker 3: this going forever.

391
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 2: I would think. So that's exactly what I would think,

392
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Speaker 2: And that's a great question. The thing that I have

393
00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 2: deduced is that they were all so taking payoffs from

394
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,399
Speaker 2: her competitors. So who's paying them more would probably be

395
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 2: some of it, especially when and this is a little

396
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:14,479
Speaker 2: bit later, but eventually, right alcohol becomes legal again, which

397
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,679
Speaker 2: leaves a whole bunch of thugs out of work. So

398
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 2: they kind of wised up that she was actually making

399
00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 2: a very good business, like not extravagant because that's not sustainable,

400
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 2: as they should have learned to come too hard out

401
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,840
Speaker 2: the gate. But eventually that did end up escalating into

402
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,800
Speaker 2: a turf For the first time she got put into jail,

403
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 2: she kind of realized she kind of like wised up,

404
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 2: like I'm not going to be able to do this

405
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 2: myself and keep my hands clean. So you know, she

406
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 2: has a pulse on all of Harlem. This is when

407
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 2: she heard about Bumpy Johnson. She recruited him like two

408
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 2: days after getting getting discharged from jail, So she heard

409
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 2: about him while she was in prison because he was

410
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 2: actually ultimately her successor of her business, which is kind

411
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,440
Speaker 2: of cool. But he at the time was a bodyguard

412
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 2: for another banker, Alex Pompeii's. He was Bumpy Johnson was

413
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,159
Speaker 2: fifteen years old, and she learned that a mugger was

414
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 2: trying to come at his boss and he cut his

415
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 2: throat and gutted him on the street. Yeah, and she

416
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 2: was like, yes, that that's what that's why I need

417
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 2: the fifteen year old savage.

418
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 1: She needs a bodyguard, that's what she's figuring out.

419
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, So she hired him as a heavy basically, so

420
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 2: like if any one was given her a hard time,

421
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 2: she'd call the muscle and that was him. By the way,

422
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 2: like her business definitely was illegal, she definitely was a criminal,

423
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,959
Speaker 2: but first she was a business woman and she just

424
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,640
Speaker 2: didn't have the protection from the government, so she had

425
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 2: to hire people to keep her safe. And you know,

426
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 2: if you're hiring somebody for your physical protection, the meaner

427
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 2: the better, especially because she prided herself on being a

428
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 2: lady who you know, didn't engage with that kind of behavior,

429
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,120
Speaker 2: I guess. Anyway, by the time she got out of jail,

430
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,919
Speaker 2: alcohol was legal again. Like we said before, it's so

431
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 2: it was just a matter of time before those gangsters

432
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 2: who were now out of work realized that her business

433
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 2: was really profitable and the syndicate was coming for her.

434
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 2: That's like the basically the Five Families plus Dutch Schultz.

435
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 2: So the five families were like the Italian heads of

436
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 2: all the different branches of the mafia, and Dutch Schultz

437
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: was in there too. He's kind of grandfathered in. He

438
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 2: was not Italian and he was not Catholic. He was

439
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 2: the only I think he was German and Jewish, so

440
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 2: he was definitely the outlier by a lot, and he

441
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 2: knew it and he was. He was just kind of

442
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 2: a jerk, like they all are jerks, you know, they're gangsters,

443
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 2: but he especially was like very loud mouthed, shot from

444
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 2: the hip, like a real liability. That makes sense when

445
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 2: you're running an illegal business. He was actually the one

446
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 2: who was responsible for vandalizing all the local stores who

447
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 2: didn't pay his guys for protection in Harlem. Yeah, Stephanie

448
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 2: Sinclair told reporters in one of the articles that actually

449
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 2: she didn't write. One of the Amsterdam News reporters interview

450
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 2: her and wrote this, so it's a little bit more

451
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 2: I think trustable, because it was not something that Stephanie

452
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 2: Sinclair paid the paper to produce as an advertisement, which

453
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 2: she did, okay, like she was the Queen of pr

454
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 2: like she was. She had like these thirst trap selfies

455
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 2: from like the waist up. It wasn't a selfie obviously,

456
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 2: but that's what kind of looked like. She'd have like

457
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 2: a turban and like big jeweled ear rings and fur

458
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 2: its just like yeah, I'm gonna read this article for sure. Anyway,

459
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 2: this one was not that. This one was like a

460
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 2: Marvel Cook who was like an up and coming reporter

461
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 2: at the time, interviewed her, and she said that Dutch

462
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 2: Schultz sent one of his guys to her apartment to

463
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 2: beat her up and intimidate her into forfeiting her business.

464
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 2: I mean he did do that, but she shoved that

465
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 2: guy in that closet, the closet, I'm telling you closet,

466
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: and then she called her guys to come take care

467
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 2: of him. So like no one could find Max Rennie,

468
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 2: which was the guy who came to her apartment and

469
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 2: tried to intimidate her, Like he's just disappeared.

470
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 3: So when she gets out of prison after this time period,

471
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 3: she just goes right back to the banking scheme stuff.

472
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: Does she expand at all or no?

473
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: I think she's expanding the whole time. I don't think

474
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 2: she like the bank never went under, like she just

475
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: had such a good idea of how the numbers and

476
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 2: people worked that like by all the accounts I could find,

477
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 2: Like her business didn't stop just because she went to prison,

478
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: Like it just kept going because people were still getting paid.

479
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 2: She had people who were good at their jobs. And

480
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 2: I think she kind of knew in a business like this,

481
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 2: you're gonna go to jail, Like that's definitely going to

482
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 2: be part of your life. So I think she had

483
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: prepared for it because she did come out and then

484
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 2: she just went right back to work. She like hired

485
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 2: her bodyguard force. I wish that we had more records

486
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 2: about what her profit margins were, like, what was she

487
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 2: pulling in in a normal day. I know that she

488
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 2: started her company with I think twenty thousand dollars, which

489
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: today is a ton to me, Like that's so much

490
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: to me.

491
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 3: Let's see, let me find the numbers. Hold on, so

492
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 3: twenty thousand and what twenty three, nineteen twenty three, Yes,

493
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 3: that's when she came up.

494
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: So that's about three hundred and seventy thousand dollars.

495
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 2: That's amazing.

496
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of her.

497
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 3: So she comes out, she does this, she gets you know,

498
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 3: her bodyguards together, and now you said the syndicate is

499
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 3: coming after her and Dutch Schultz is coming after her

500
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 3: to intimidate her. I think now is a good time

501
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 3: to talk about her personality because you know, I mean,

502
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 3: I don't think you have any illusions that she is

503
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 3: some perfect woman. In this book, it sounded like she

504
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 3: could be pretty acerbic and rowdy, and you know, she

505
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 3: had a foul mouth and all kinds of stuff. Will

506
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 3: you kind of give us some insight into her character

507
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: and what objective people around her kind of thought of her?

508
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: In general, I think that she was probably pretty scary.

509
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 2: I think she was probably very quiet, which you never

510
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: know what quiet people are thinking, so that's a little unnerving.

511
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 2: She did speak multiple languages, which is amazing to me

512
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: as well. I don't think she ever lost her accent,

513
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 2: but I don't know what that accent really was. I

514
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 2: think it was probably like a you know, a mash

515
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 2: up because she was West Indian and then she lived

516
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 2: in Montreal, which is very different, and then you know,

517
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 2: and then New York. We do have some direct quotes

518
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 2: from her both, not only in the things that she

519
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: wrote herself, of course, but Marvel Cook has her on

520
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 2: record as saying like she's gonna crimp nut sholts like hair,

521
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 2: Like she's gonna put like a wave in him, Like

522
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 2: was she gonna break him? Like what does that mean?

523
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 2: You know? Like that kind of slang is so fun

524
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: to me. It would have been terrifying in person, Like

525
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: I think she was just like probably the best dressed

526
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: person in every room, but like in a very demure way,

527
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: like a subdued type of way where she knew what

528
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: she was doing, like she didn't have to be super flashy.

529
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 2: She did have a really filthy mouth, which, of course

530
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: you know she's a gangster. I mean she's a lady too,

531
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 2: but we can all get there, right, Yeah, I guess

532
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 2: you have to talk like that to make people take

533
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 2: you seriously in that line of work at least. So

534
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: there's that. And then also one thing that is very

535
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 2: like character defining to me is that, like I said before,

536
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: Schultz was a real loud mouth and a liability for

537
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: the syndicate. So when he threatened to assassinate the district attorney,

538
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: which was Thomas Dewey, the other gangsters he worked with

539
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: did not like having that attention, so his own guys

540
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: put a hit on him, like his own guys in

541
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 2: the Sive Families are the ones who assassinated him and

542
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: a bunch of his people. But I think from what

543
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 2: I remember reading, Stephanie Sinclair is the one who told

544
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: Thomas Dewey that Dutch Schultz said that. So we're getting

545
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: your information third hand. If I know, Madam Queen, he

546
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 2: may or may not have said that. But you know,

547
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: she's playing chess the best way I think to get

548
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: out of a sticky situation when you don't have the

549
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,959
Speaker 2: manpower is to have your enemies annihilate themselves. Yeah, to

550
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: fudt them against each other. Schultz survived the assassination attack.

551
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: He was in hospital, Like okay, also, and how bad

552
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,479
Speaker 2: of a shape do you have to be to go

553
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 2: to a hospital when you're a known gangster. He's about

554
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: to die, but he survived that, and then he got

555
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: blood poisoning, and so then he started talking out of

556
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: his head and there are long transcripts of what he

557
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: was saying because everyone knew he was a criminal. But

558
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: in order to pin a criminal down, you have to

559
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: do it legally, which is really that's the hard part, right.

560
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: So they had a clerk in his hospital room typing

561
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: everything he said, which is fascinating to me because it

562
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: was just nonsense, like crazy stuff.

563
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: Did you talk about Stephanie Sinclair?

564
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: No, he didn't say anything important. He didn't say anything

565
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: relevant at all. He was talking about playing jacks and

566
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,959
Speaker 2: like something's on the roof, like nothing relevant. They totally

567
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: wasted that resource. But on the off chance that he

568
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: was going to confess to something, they needed someone there.

569
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: But she while he was on his deathbed, talking out

570
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: of his head, dying of blood poisoning. Stephanie Sinclair sent

571
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: him a telegram that said, as you sow, so shall

572
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 2: you reap? And she assigned it Madame Queen of Policy.

573
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: That's really twisting then, I I think in a very

574
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: fashionable way.

575
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 3: She mentions in this article that you know she was

576
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: going to crimp him, which yes, we know is not

577
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 3: a hair. Why would she agree to do an article

578
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: with this woman, Marvel Cook? I mean, I'm confused about that.

579
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 3: What kind of criminal does like a feature article on themselves?

580
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's so twisty. It's so interesting to me that

581
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: she was never hiding the fact that she was running

582
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: this business from what Again, from what I remember from

583
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: the records that I can recall at the top of

584
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: my head, she kept really detailed books, including like the

585
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 2: badge numbers of the police she was paying off on

586
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: a regular basis, and all the money that she was

587
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: taking in, and all of the taxes she was paying

588
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: on the money that she was taking in. So I

589
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 2: think that she was somewhat secure behind that. I think

590
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: that there's also a way of like doing a not

591
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 2: exactly a bait and switch. But if you go to

592
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 2: the police and say, hey, I was doing this thing,

593
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 2: but this other thing happened that was really important, They're

594
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: going to focus on the bigger thing, Like he wasn't

595
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: a vice cop, you know, like he was trying to

596
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: bring down organized crime. And she's over here saying, like

597
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 2: this guy specifically I him. He said, he's trying to

598
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: kill you. Like that's enough, you know. So I think

599
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: that there that she could have not hide but kind

600
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: of just smoke and mirrors with those two things as well.

601
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 3: Do you think that she came close to being I mean,

602
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 3: I know that you know, there's this guy coming out

603
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: to intimidate her and stuff, but is there anyone else

604
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 3: who's targeting her seriously other than Dutch Schultz. I know

605
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 3: that you've got Bumpy Johnson around trying to protect her

606
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 3: and everything, But did she feel like she was in

607
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: major danger at some point?

608
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: He was the main threat because he was the one

609
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: who didn't have any other thing going except for his

610
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: beer business. The other gangsters, you know, they were already

611
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 2: into drugs, They were already into dealing drugs they had

612
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 2: and they were running gambling rings as well, so they

613
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: had other revenue. Streams if you will, besides just alcohol,

614
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: and they were not out of work completely. They you know,

615
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 2: they lost a vertical right, but that's okay. You can

616
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: stand on the others if you need to. He had

617
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: already boxed out all of the other bankers by the

618
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: time that he went to her because he was busting

619
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 2: their plate glass windows and like, yeah, your insurance might

620
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 2: pay for that, but you're going to be out of

621
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: business until you can get it fixed. So there's that, right,

622
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: Like he was intimidating people and you know, having them

623
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: lose money so that they kind of had. They were

624
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: kind of it was kind of forced right to kind

625
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: of work with him, and I can't remember off, I

626
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: can't remember. I'm sorry, but he also you know, snatched

627
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: the other businesses from the other West Indian bankers.

628
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: Did she ever expand past the racketeering part the banking

629
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: or was that primarily what her business was when she

630
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 3: was active in Harlem?

631
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: That was primarily her business as I understand it, and

632
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: I think she also had a dressmaking store, But I

633
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: don't think she ever went into anything harder than that. Okay,

634
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: Bumpy Johnson did for sure afterward, but I don't think

635
00:31:59,240 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: she did.

636
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 3: So, what was her involvement with Lucky Luciano? Is this

637
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 3: somebody that she ever you know, he's a well known gangster.

638
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 3: Was this somebody that she ever met in person and

639
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 3: had discussions with?

640
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: From what I can tell, the remaining five families just

641
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: kind of left her alone because again, they had other

642
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: things going on. Lucky Luciano as actually famous for being

643
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: the first gangster that didn't go down for tax evasion,

644
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 2: Like they brought him down, but it wasn't because someone snitched,

645
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 2: and it wasn't because he evaded his taxes. He actually

646
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 2: went to prison for a prostitution racket. Thomas Dewey actually

647
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: put together the one that Dutch Schultz threatened his life.

648
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: He put together a task force trying to destroy organized crime.

649
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: And all these tips kept coming in from sex workers

650
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: or people who live next to the brothels who were like, hey,

651
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: I don't know how this is happening. Every time they

652
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: get busted, they're like back in business in twenty four hours.

653
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: And then they noticed like, oh they all have the

654
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: same bondsman, Okay, there is one guy running all of this.

655
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: And so that was Luciano who and I think he

656
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: came into power right after Schultz, but there was another

657
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: assassination first and then he came in. I don't think

658
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 2: she ever interacted with him, like head to head, but

659
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: they were working simultaneously.

660
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 3: Did these people, these other the syndicate, did they consider

661
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 3: Harlem to be part of their territory.

662
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: I would not have thought that.

663
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:26,479
Speaker 2: I think so again, because they had different means of income,

664
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: Like they weren't exactly in the same business. So there

665
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: were definitely speakeasys and nightclubs in Harlem, like those were

666
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: some of the everyone's favorites, like we have the Cotton

667
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: Club and the Savoy up there right. You know, they're

668
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: the ones getting the booze to those clubs, I'm sure.

669
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: And Stephanie Sinclair wasn't doing that, Like she wasn't even

670
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: probably partying there. She probably knew everyone, but she didn't rage.

671
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: I don't think. Yeah. So I think that they weren't

672
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: exactly competitors until Schultz was like, I'm taking your.

673
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 3: Business at the end of prohibition. Did she see her

674
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 3: business dip at all or no?

675
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 2: It seems like it was consistent.

676
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 3: Tell me a little bit more about her relationship with Bumpy.

677
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 3: I mean, how long does this last with him being

678
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 3: a part of her bodyguard, the head of her entourage

679
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 3: of bodyguards. Is this a long term position for him?

680
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: As far as I know, it lasted until they both died,

681
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 2: like their friendship was lifelong. And I say that because

682
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: Bumpy Johnson's wife, Mami, wrote her memoirs later in life,

683
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 2: so I never got to talk to her, which is

684
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 2: no crushing, But she has a really great memoir, The

685
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: Rap on My Husband, and she wrote that they were

686
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: lifelong friends, like she put him onto the business. And

687
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 2: then whenever she and I don't want to give too

688
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 2: much away, but whenever she went to prison for the

689
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 2: Long One, which actually was not for racketeering, so that's

690
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: fun little twist at the end. Whenever she did go

691
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: to prison for the big one, he is the one

692
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 2: who kept her business running inherited it and Mamie says

693
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 2: that he is the one who kept her up for

694
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: the rest of her life. Hmmm, that makes sense. Maybe

695
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 2: she was working for him, maybe they worked together. Maybe

696
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 2: she was like, no, I'm out. We don't know. I

697
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 2: can't imagine her saying like no, I'm out though, mm hmm. Yeah,

698
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: they were lifelong friends. I think they died within a

699
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 2: few weeks of each other. I don't think that their

700
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: relationship was romantic at all, but I think that they

701
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: were very close coworkers and friends.

702
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 3: So there is a switch at some point where Stephanie

703
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 3: Saint Clair kind of has to pull back on her

704
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 3: illegal business. And you know, am I right in remembering that,

705
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 3: she turns the reins over to Bumpy Johnson more and

706
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 3: he's the one that's sort of the one dealing with

707
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 3: all of these folks.

708
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she actually went to I believe she served

709
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: two shorter sentences for numbers again. The second time. It

710
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: was also a plant, like she was doing it, but

711
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 2: they planted the evidence on her, actually on her person.

712
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 2: They like shove it under her arm and then like

713
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 2: I saw her. I mean she had it as soon

714
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: as I came up. So she did go to jail

715
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 2: for that. And I think after she was released for

716
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: that one is when they was when she was like,

717
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: you run this side of it. I'm going to focus

718
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 2: on like the philanthropies now, which is kind of what

719
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 2: you want to do. You know, when you're building a business,

720
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 2: it's like someone else handles the day to day and

721
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 2: I focus on expanding the business or giving back to

722
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 2: the people who have supported me all of these years

723
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 2: and that kind of thing. So it seems like she

724
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: shifted to investing in local businesses after that second time,

725
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 2: after it kind of calmed down, and she, I guess

726
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: knew the ropes well enough or he had been trained

727
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 2: well enough to just take over, because she would take

728
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: meetings all the time for local startup businesses who needed

729
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 2: the funding just to get started, which I think is

730
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 2: really cool that she went in that direction.

731
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 3: She then transitions, you know, away from that business into

732
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 3: more like political reform. So tell me a little bit

733
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 3: more about that. I mean, she has gone from kind

734
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 3: of underworld boss in a way to like a legitimate

735
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 3: political reform or activist.

736
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 2: Which is another kind of cool, like gangster turned civil

737
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 2: rights activists. Like that's amazing, yes, And I think one

738
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 2: of the reasons why she did that is because it

739
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 2: affected her directly too, because she had been I guess

740
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 2: victimized by the police. Right, they're all corrupt, and she's like,

741
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 2: we have to elect some new officials, Like, everybody, go

742
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 2: vote for this guy who wants to clean up all

743
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 2: of this terrible organized crime, like he wants to get.

744
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: Rid of it.

745
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: Go vote for him, and she would also ask her

746
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: people to vote for people who did what they said

747
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 2: they were going to do. And these are again in

748
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: the advertisements that she paid to have published in the

749
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 2: Amsterdam News. They weren't really advertisements though, they were like

750
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: open letters. For example, she wrote some that were detailing

751
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 2: the rights that you have when a police person comes

752
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: to your door and says he's going to search your apartment.

753
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 2: Right like, she's like, they can't come in without a warrant.

754
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 2: You can ask for the warrant, and this is how

755
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: you do it. Like she was telling people, you don't

756
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 2: have to let police in, even if they say you

757
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: have to let us in, you don't, like, it's the

758
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 2: law that you don't. And I think that's really cool.

759
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: And I actually think that she probably learned that because

760
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 2: it happened to her, and because she told her lawyer

761
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: this should be illegal, and he probably said it is,

762
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: like it is illegal search and s sure, that's exactly

763
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: what it is. So then she would go, you know,

764
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: find those things that I'm thinking the New York Public Library,

765
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: who was amazing to me and I'm very grateful for

766
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 2: all of their records. And then she would you know,

767
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: almost verbatim put in, this is the law, this is

768
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 2: what you have to abide by and what you don't.

769
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 2: So search and seizure was one of them. Stopping on

770
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 2: the street was one of them. Yeah, I thought that

771
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: was a real example of using your status to help

772
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 2: people who need it.

773
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 3: Was she less targeted at that point by the police.

774
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 3: I guess once they realized that she's no longer in

775
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: the numbers business and that Bumpy is the one running everything,

776
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: do they essentially leave her alone.

777
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, because I think a lot of the

778
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 2: elected officials were being replaced at that time because it

779
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 2: was happening at the same time where LaGuardia, I believe,

780
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: is the one who eventually said we're done and he

781
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 2: put real, real systems in place to affect change from

782
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: these particular organized crime syndicates. So that shift was happening

783
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 2: at that time, particularly after the Harlem riot where they

784
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: arrested a little boy he was like fifteen for stealing

785
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: a pocket knife and he went missing. He was fine,

786
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 2: but no one knew that and no one liked that

787
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: the police would not answer any questions, so there was

788
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: a riot on his behalf. Almost positive it was LaGuardia,

789
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 2: who was like, we have to get to the bottom

790
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: of this, like why did this happen? And he put

791
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: in a task force that basically like hey, everyone stay

792
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: calmed for a second while we figure out what happened

793
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 2: and what to do about it. And of course, you

794
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 2: know that didn't really work because people were angry and

795
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: rightfully so. They thought a little boy had been killed. Yeah,

796
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: and they like the papers were running pictures of him

797
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 2: with the policemen. They were like, that's for last week

798
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 2: when he got busted last week, and it was like

799
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: it was a police it was a picture from before

800
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: he was on probation. But still, I think, you know,

801
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 2: so much was happening at a time that like it

802
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 2: was kind of everything was a shuffle, like the teams

803
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: were being redistributed.

804
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 1: I think her.

805
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 3: Life shifts pretty dramatically when she meets who would be

806
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 3: her future husband, and you know, he has quite a

807
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 3: colorful background, I think, and you know, tell me a

808
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 3: little bit about that relationship.

809
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: That's in the nineteen thirties after she's retired.

810
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hate him, Sophie abdulhamide.

811
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 3: Well, they called him a black hitler, which is a

812
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: terrible Moniker, So there you go.

813
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: So he helped head several This was not I mean,

814
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: this was long before the actual civil rights movements, but

815
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: they were civil rights protests. He's a big he's a

816
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: big part of the movement of don't buy where you

817
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 2: can't work, which good. But he also talked about, quote

818
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: getting the Jews out of Harlem, and I think he

819
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 2: meant did I'm not defend this at all, because that's unacceptable,

820
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 2: but I think he meant getting Dutch Schultz and his

821
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: cronies out of Harlem. That's not what he said. Calling

822
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 2: Dutch Schultz by name would probably be a death sentence.

823
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 2: So again, terrible, and the New York papers called him

824
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 2: black Hitler because of it. So I don't want to

825
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 2: tell too much of their love story because it's really

826
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 2: frustrating because he's the worst. That was the hardest part

827
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: of the book to write, is like why and only

828
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 2: what did this happen? But I think he was a

829
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 2: very skilled speaker, and I think he was very charismatic.

830
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 2: Case in point, he did lead a cult a little

831
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 2: bit later on, So he was terrible in her life

832
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 2: did change a lot, because when your partner is a

833
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: terrible person, it's very distracting from everything good or everything

834
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: at all that you're trying to do. So he definitely

835
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,439
Speaker 2: used her. And I don't know how much of their

836
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: love was real. I think it had to have been

837
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: at some point, but ultimately devastation.

838
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 3: Well, I was wondering about that, what their relationship was like,

839
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 3: and it doesn't sound like it was very good.

840
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: Kind of from the beginning.

841
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like it was very good. Well, they

842
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: met because he was asking her. It was one of

843
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 2: her business meetings. He wanted money for a startup for

844
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: humous business. I think was the first one, and she said,

845
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 2: you know, thank you, but no, like your business plan

846
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: is not it's not where it needs to be. And

847
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: then he came back the next day and she's like,

848
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,959
Speaker 2: there's no way, there's no way you revised it. Since

849
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 2: then he's like, no, I just came here to hang out.

850
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 2: She's like, I don't have time for this. So he

851
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 2: came back again. He was like writing letters to her,

852
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: which everyone wrote letters to her, like that doesn't make

853
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 2: him special to me, Like she's amazing. Everyone's sending fan mail.

854
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: But he kept showing up and asking to talk to her,

855
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: and that's really flattering, you know, like that can get

856
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 2: you a long way, just asking questions about someone's life

857
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 2: and their successes. Like it escalated from there. I think

858
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 2: he was a good bit younger, not a not a

859
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: good bit. I mean, depending on which of those ages,

860
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 2: right you trust is about five years younger. But that's

861
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: how it started, is he wanted money from her, and

862
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: then he ultimately ended up. They got married, but it

863
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: wasn't a legal marriage. She never divorced her first husband.

864
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 2: No one ever said this, but I think that was

865
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 2: her doing. I think it was on purpose that they

866
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 2: didn't get legally married, because what they break up, he

867
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 2: gets nothing. Right. Yeah, oh, it doesn't seem like it

868
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: would hold up, not when she was already married.

869
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 3: Right, What is her legitimate business at this point is

870
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 3: at the dressmaking shop?

871
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 1: Is that what she's doing?

872
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, I think so.

873
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 3: We don't want to give away too much about the ending.

874
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 3: It does not end well her marriage to him, but

875
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 3: eventually she ends up on her own and seems to

876
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 3: live a fairly long life after that. But it doesn't

877
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 3: sound like she socialized. She certainly was not at the

878
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 3: height where she was before, but it does sound like

879
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 3: she had a kind of a good conclusion on her own.

880
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: I think so. I think what you said earlier about

881
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 2: it didn't end well is absolutely correct, but it did

882
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 2: end spectacularly. You were also right in saying that ultimately

883
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 2: it does seem like she lived a long life. We

884
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 2: don't know the details of her middle age or late age.

885
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 2: She pops up here and there in an interview. Sometimes

886
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 2: she is not doing so well. Sometimes she has just

887
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: bought an apartment complex. Sometimes she has run barefoot in

888
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 2: front of a car to stop it. But none of

889
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 2: that really, Like she kind of disappeared herself, right, which

890
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: if you're a slippery person and you've been lying by

891
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: your age since you were thirteen, I think she's probably

892
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: picked up a few tricks where she probably did live

893
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: very well until the very end. That's the version that

894
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: I like to hear, Like I want to agree with

895
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 2: maybe Johnson, and that she lived very comfortably up until

896
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 2: the end of her life.

897
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 3: So, what was the lesson that you learned from this book?

898
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 3: What was the big thing that you think, audience is

899
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 3: what your readers we'll take away from this.

900
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: So aside from just learning that she existed and thrived

901
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 2: in a world created to keep her down. Madame Queen

902
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: was a really strategic person, and that's how she got

903
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: around those systems or got through them. I should say.

904
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: She didn't have the muscle of all the other gangs,

905
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: but she knew how to play them against each other.

906
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 2: She ran her business from behind bars. It seems like

907
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 2: she knew that sometimes in order to have a friend,

908
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 2: you have to be a friend. And unlike the other

909
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 2: mobsters of the day, she was a business person first,

910
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 2: and like I said, her business just happened to be illegal.

911
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 2: So she carved out a space for herself. She saw

912
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 2: an opportunity, as they say in The Great Gatsby, and

913
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 2: I think that that is very inspiring, even against like

914
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: all of the odds that she that she endured.

915
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 3: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

916
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 3: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

917
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 3: Is Wicked and American Sherlock, and don't forget There are

918
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 3: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

919
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 3: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

920
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 3: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

921
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 3: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis

922
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 3: a Morosi. Our Associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode

923
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 3: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer.

924
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 3: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

925
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 3: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the

926
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

927
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 3: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More Wicked, and

928
00:46:48,320 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 3: on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod.