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Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women

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Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zephim fast

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Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Jamie and Caitlin here,

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Speaker 1: we're going on tour in the Midwest covering the Star

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Speaker 1: Wars prequels. We're gonna just cover all three at once

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Speaker 1: in one show in fabulous outfits.

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Speaker 2: We will be in Indianapolis for Let's Fest on Saturday,

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Speaker 2: August thirtieth for a matinee show, and then Jamie, you

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Speaker 2: have a solo show that evening that can't be missed.

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Speaker 1: Called Jamie Loftus and her Pet Rock Solve the World's Problems,

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Speaker 1: in which that will happen.

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Speaker 2: I can't wait.

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Speaker 1: Then we are going to Chicago. You asked, We listened.

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Speaker 1: We will be at the Den Theater on August thirty first,

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Speaker 1: do not miss it.

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Speaker 2: And then then we will be in Addison, Wisconsin, on Thursday, September.

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Speaker 1: Fourth, and then finally we will be ending the tour

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Speaker 1: in Minneapolis, Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater on Sunday,

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Speaker 1: September seventh. So if you have been one of the

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Speaker 1: many people asking us to come to your town for

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Speaker 1: the last ten years we're doing it. We would love

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Speaker 1: to see you. You can get all tickets at Link

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Speaker 1: Tree slash Bechtel Cast. Exqueeze me, We'll see you there.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy the episode the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 1: Okay, when the cow came on screen, I was like.

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Speaker 2: That's the first cow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I've never had a movie watching experience where

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Speaker 1: the movie shows you so clearly the title of the movie,

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Speaker 1: but in classic Kelly fashion, has the restraint to not

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Speaker 1: be like, there's the first cow. Like, and I felt

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Speaker 1: like I had blue balls, I had narrative blue balls.

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Speaker 1: But there she was the first cow. There, she was

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Speaker 1: female for time, we can argue.

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Speaker 2: I was really expecting this to be sort of like

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Speaker 2: a silence of the Lamb situation, where you never see

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Speaker 2: the lambs on screen, they're only referenced in one line

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Speaker 2: of dialogue. But this is a movie about the first cow.

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Speaker 1: We're not waiting for good out here. The first cow is.

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Speaker 1: She takes her sweet time, but once she's there, she's there,

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Speaker 1: and she's not just there. She represents capitalism and the

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Speaker 1: means of fucking production She's a metaphorical cow.

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Speaker 2: A metaphysical, a physical, a metaphorical everything cow.

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Speaker 1: She's everything.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bechdel Cass, the Bechdel Cow.

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Speaker 1: I don't know the Bechdel cow.

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Speaker 2: It makes you think, it really does. And this is

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Speaker 2: our show where we're.

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Speaker 1: The first two Bechdel Cows.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm first, Caitlin Dorante, I'm first, Jamie. This

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Speaker 2: is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional

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Speaker 2: feminist lens, using the Bechdel test or the Bechdel cow,

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Speaker 2: perhaps as a jumping off point. But Jamie, what is that?

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Speaker 1: Well? It is a media metric originally created by our

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Speaker 1: dear friend, friend of the cast, Alison Bechdel. Originally created

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Speaker 1: as a joke, a lark, a gag in her comic

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Speaker 1: Thanks to Watch Out for in the eighties, it has

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Speaker 1: since become a mainstream media metric. There's many versions of

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Speaker 1: this test. Ours requires the following. Two characters of a

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Speaker 1: marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something

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Speaker 1: other than a man. You know, and we've got an

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Speaker 1: interesting discussion ahead. I can't believe this is our first

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Speaker 1: Kelly Reichardt movie, and we have an incredible guest today.

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Speaker 2: We certainly do. She's a cartoonist and illustrator, the author

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Speaker 2: of the new graphic novel Simplicity, which is in bookstores now.

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Speaker 2: It's Maddie Lobchansky.

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Speaker 3: Welcome, Welcome, Hi, thank you for having me. I'm really excited.

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Speaker 3: I also when the cow showed up, Lena to my,

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Speaker 3: my dear wife, and I whispered to her, that's the

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Speaker 3: first Cow, because you have to.

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Speaker 1: It's so satisfying, it's so triumphant.

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Speaker 3: She's so beautiful. She flies onto the screen with angel wings.

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Speaker 3: It's the most beautiful cow in the world.

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Speaker 1: Yes, she really is. And she's been through it, and

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Speaker 1: she's been through it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's a widow.

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Speaker 1: I know truly. I was like, I would actually really

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Speaker 1: love to see the Pixar version of First Cow also

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Speaker 1: where it's just a deeply traumatized cow who makes friends

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Speaker 1: with kind of a who's the guy in ratituey because Cookie,

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Speaker 1: to me has the ratitude guye energy.

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Speaker 2: Oh sure, Linguiniinguiini.

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Speaker 1: He is Cookie and Linguini they like they're on a

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Speaker 1: similar frequency.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And then and then later when someone's talking about

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Speaker 3: this movie, they can be like, you know, you think

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Speaker 3: it's a kid's movie, but it's really about bovine trauma.

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Speaker 3: It is bovine generational trauma.

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Speaker 1: This movie is fascinating because like on the first watch,

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Speaker 1: you're like, huh, what is this movie about? And then

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Speaker 1: the second watch you're like, oh m hmm, it's about food,

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Speaker 1: sovereignty and capital. Okay, okay, she was cooking because at

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Speaker 1: first you're like, that's sure was a cow.

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Speaker 3: Some cow.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into it, Maddie. What is your history with

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Speaker 1: this movie?

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I love this movie so much. It was

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Speaker 3: actually my first CALLI record that I saw, and it

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Speaker 3: was during this movie came out twenty nineteen, I believe,

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Speaker 3: and during lockdown for COVID and twenty twenty. My partner

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Speaker 3: is in the WGA. We started getting screeners nice and

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Speaker 3: I was like, I heard people ranting and raving about

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Speaker 3: this film. People I know that like movies, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, I'll force us to watch this. We had

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Speaker 3: a very elaborate nightly movie viewing in my home during lockdown,

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Speaker 3: where I got on YouTube. I found like the Regal

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Speaker 3: roller Coaster and I would turn off all the lights

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Speaker 3: and I would make popcorn and I would play that

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Speaker 3: on the screen. To make to put us in a

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Speaker 3: movie mode.

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Speaker 1: You know, I love hearing what people's like simulation of

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Speaker 1: normalcy was during lockdown, because it's like, that's it. That's

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Speaker 1: a good one, that's a very comforting move.

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Speaker 3: I yearned for the Regal Coff mystery of cinemas, and

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Speaker 3: I had to go there in my mind, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I go put our phones in the room and watch it,

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Speaker 3: watch a movie every night. So yeah, we watched this

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Speaker 3: movie and I just it just fully blew me away

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Speaker 3: to the point where that year, for my wife's birthday,

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Speaker 3: I found the cow on cameo. The cow is on

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Speaker 3: kiss not anymore, howmeo very briefly the cows on Cameo

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Speaker 3: and I found it, and I bought my wife for

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Speaker 3: her birthday a birthday message from I believe the cow's

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Speaker 3: name was Eve, who played the cow Wow, and Eve

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Speaker 3: picked between two notes like fortunes on the ground.

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Speaker 1: Wait, that's elaborate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really elaborate. And while this was happening, you know,

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Speaker 3: in the very first when they first get to the

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Speaker 3: fort in the movie, you see that guy kind of

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Speaker 3: like wander by the camera and he's holding like a

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Speaker 3: squealing little pig Yeah, that pig wanders into frame and

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Speaker 3: she goes, oh, they're so and so he's in the

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Speaker 3: film as well.

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Speaker 1: Wait were they from the same farm.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like some I think in Oregon or Washington

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Speaker 3: or British Columbia, I can't quite remember. I have to

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Speaker 3: like go the video is saved somewhere on my partner's

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Speaker 3: fin can find it?

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Speaker 1: Wow? Please? Yes, that's it's The stars are just like us.

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Speaker 1: I love when stars are friends.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they seem to be hanging out all the time.

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Speaker 3: The frog and the frog, the pig and the cow.

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Speaker 1: I also love that she gets that there's no human

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Speaker 1: on the poster either. Yeah, it's just Eve the cow. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This was my second Kelly Reichard movie, two of two.

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Speaker 1: I feel like she's the kind of director that I know.

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Speaker 1: I will probably enjoy all of her work, but I

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Speaker 1: don't want to like mainline it. I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: it's nice to I watched my first I watched Certain

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Speaker 1: Women last year, which is terrific, and Lily Gladstone is

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Speaker 1: in this movie for two seconds, but she is like

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Speaker 1: unbelievable in Certain Women, so I already knew that I

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Speaker 1: really like Killie Recard. I also like I also just

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Speaker 1: generally like learning about her process. She's very thorough and

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Speaker 1: she's very anti Hollywood, where it seems like she makes

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Speaker 1: movies when she feels like it. She rarely makes them

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Speaker 1: outside of Oregon, where she's from and where she lives.

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Speaker 2: I think she's from Miami, but she.

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Speaker 1: She's like been in Oregon forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's

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Speaker 1: best friends with I think Todd Haynes. Like it's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: She's just a vibe.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. She she came into the last year. I think

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Speaker 3: that she came to the Museum of the Moving Image,

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Speaker 3: which I go to all the time because its in

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Speaker 3: my neighborhood, and she did a talkback for Showing Up,

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Speaker 3: which is a movie that I love. Also, but listening

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Speaker 3: to her it was like the first good talkback I've

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Speaker 3: ever been to in my life. It's incredible. She just

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Speaker 3: her process talk is like amazing, awesome.

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Speaker 1: She's like she's both so thorough and like it doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to give a fuck about a lot of the

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Speaker 1: like more I don't know, bullshitty, YadA YadA aspects of filmmaking.

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Speaker 1: I just I really like her. But this is only

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Speaker 1: my second movie I've seen of hers and it's really good.

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Speaker 1: I was really taken by, like, what a simple story

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Speaker 1: it is that like masks, all of these really complicated themes.

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Speaker 1: The performances were great. I couldn't stop thinking about Waninguini.

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Speaker 1: To be perfectly honest, I don't know why. I was

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Speaker 1: like and I was looking up, like, has anyone else

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Speaker 1: thought that the guy from First Cow reminds him of Linguini?

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Speaker 1: And I'm proud to say I think I may have

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Speaker 1: had an original thought. Wow, thank you, thank you. But

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Speaker 1: I really really enjoyed this movie. There's so much going on.

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Speaker 1: I do have some thoughts about it, and I'm excited

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Speaker 1: to get into it. Yeah. Kaitlyn wints her history was

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Speaker 1: First Cow.

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Speaker 2: I had never seen it before. It was my first

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Speaker 2: First Cow, first Kelly write Card movie. I knew of

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Speaker 2: it and I remember it being released. But I was

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Speaker 2: also kind of confusing this movie with the Power of

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Speaker 2: the Dog.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, first of all, misogynist.

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Speaker 2: Of you, well, I hate women? You hate women with

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Speaker 2: Bob's Okay. In my defense, both movies have an animal

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Speaker 2: in the title.

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Speaker 1: True similar similar release.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Part of the Dog came out like a yearish later.

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Speaker 2: A couple of years apart. Both of them are directed

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Speaker 2: by women. Both movies are period pieces. So you see

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Speaker 2: where my head's at.

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Speaker 1: I hope canceled.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Anyway, hadn't seen this movie before, and listeners

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Speaker 2: of the show will know probably that this is not

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Speaker 2: really my type of movie. I think there's really interesting

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Speaker 2: things that the movie does and says. But the movie

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Speaker 2: made me sleepy. But I'm excited to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: There's lots to discuss, and let's take a break and

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Speaker 2: then we'll come back for the recap.

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Speaker 1: And we're back.

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Speaker 2: We're back.

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Speaker 1: Actually, before we get into it, Maddie, I neglected to

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Speaker 1: do this at the top of the episode. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your new book before we talk

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Speaker 1: about the events of the movie. First.

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Speaker 3: Cow Yeah, So I was thinking about this movie when

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Speaker 3: we were talking about picking movies, because I did. The

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Speaker 3: way the movie is framed to me was so fascinating,

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Speaker 3: and I didn't I'm loath to say I ripped it

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Speaker 3: off from my book, but I did. It was very

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Speaker 3: inspired by it. So yeah. The book takes place in

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Speaker 3: the far future, like fifty years from now, and America

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Speaker 3: has like collapsed into various like walled fascist city states

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Speaker 3: and like an academic from like the New York one

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Speaker 3: of the city states is sent up to the Catskills

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Speaker 3: to like do an ethnography of this cold group that's

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Speaker 3: been living there since the nineteen seventies, and he kind

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Speaker 3: of falls in love with someone up there, but then

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Speaker 3: very mysterious things start happening and members of the group

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Speaker 3: start disappearing in him, and this guy that he's in

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Speaker 3: love with kind of like trek off into the woods

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Speaker 3: to figure out what happened. It's a lot of like

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Speaker 3: very tranquil wood stuff I was thinking about when I

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Speaker 3: was making the book, and it's about sort of like

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Speaker 3: both capitalism but also utopian separatism and communal living and

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Speaker 3: that kind of stuff and the urges that drive people

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Speaker 3: to sort of make those decisions like leave society and

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Speaker 3: start a new somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: God, it's I haven't quite finished it yet, but I

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Speaker 1: started a couple of nights ago and it's so terrific.

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Speaker 1: I also love your last book, Boys. Weekend is so

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Speaker 1: like the Range, the Range. It's just you're incredible.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited to keep reading it. And Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to ask because it was like, it feels like

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Speaker 1: this book is in conversation with this movie a bit.

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Speaker 3: The book is sort of framed through The first thing

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Speaker 3: you see is like the spoilers for the first page

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Speaker 3: of my book. But it's like it's like kids in

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Speaker 3: a museum and they're talking about like the events of

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Speaker 3: the book like they've already happened. Right, It's different. It's

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Speaker 3: much different in the movie. But this idea that like

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Speaker 3: we're all just sort of like subject to like the

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Speaker 3: tide of history washing over us at all times, and

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Speaker 3: having that in mind from the jump. So much of

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Speaker 3: the book also is about what history is and who

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Speaker 3: records it, and who's it recorded for, who's it recorded by,

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Speaker 3: who is in the intended listener or reader of the

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Speaker 3: history being made, and all that stuff is really important.

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Speaker 3: I'm always trying to think about that. So I think

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Speaker 3: a period piece like this is so has a lot

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Speaker 3: of that in mind as well.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely nice. Yeah, well, I'm excited for listeners to check

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Speaker 1: it out as well. Well, let's start talking about first Cow.

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Speaker 1: It would be nice. Do we know? Is Eve still

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Speaker 1: with us?

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Speaker 3: Eve the Cow?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Oh boy.

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Speaker 1: She's not credited on Wikipedia, which seems like it should

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Speaker 1: be fixed.

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Speaker 2: She's credited on IMDb.

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Speaker 1: Thank god. I think her name is ev Evie okay,

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Speaker 1: ev the Cow. Yes, she should start a book club

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Speaker 1: or something like, you should get on her like influencer wave. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would take her. Like if if you put a

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Speaker 1: few books before her and she sniffed one, I'd be like,

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Speaker 1: I'll give it a shot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: According to the GQ profile I found for her name

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Speaker 3: is she's nicknamed She's nicknamed ev Okay Wow, Okay. So

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Speaker 3: she was two when they filmed the movie Prodigy. So

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Speaker 3: I'm like, what is life spain of a cow Jersey Cow?

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Speaker 1: I think it's okay, let's check this out.

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Speaker 3: Really it was like twenty years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like it's a relatively long life. I

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Speaker 1: think all things considered, I think they might Yeah, fifteen

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Speaker 1: to twenty years. So like, okay, like a cat, Yes, great,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad we were on the same page there First.

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Speaker 2: Cat, and there's a cat in the movie also there

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Speaker 2: is Okay, So here is what happens in First Cow.

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Speaker 2: We open on a woman played by Alia Showcat out

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Speaker 2: in the woods walking her dog. Some would say that

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Speaker 2: is the power of the dog.

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Speaker 1: And I think our friend would agree. I think this

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Speaker 1: is also like I haven't seen it, but I know

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Speaker 1: that one of Kelly Rigar's earlier movies stars Michelle Williams

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Speaker 1: and a dog he's called Wendy and Lucy. I felt

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Speaker 1: like it was like a little nod girl and her dog.

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Speaker 1: It's a Kelly thing. You wouldn't understand, No, I wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, she and the dog come upon a couple

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Speaker 2: human skeletons which are kind of like half buried in

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Speaker 2: the ground, and then Alia showcat like unearthed the rest

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 3: She looks so excited when she's digging up the skeletons.

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Speaker 1: I noted that too.

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Speaker 3: Something I noticed on this meeting that I had not

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Speaker 3: noticed last time I watched it, where she's like, wow,

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Speaker 3: so jazzed about it.

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Speaker 1: She's the only character who like doesn't come back, so

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Speaker 1: it's like, whatever, she worked at this movie for three hours.

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Speaker 1: Who like her reaction? I was like, Okay, so she

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Speaker 1: knows she's in the movie first cow Like that's how

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Speaker 1: she reacts because otherwise an absolutely unhinged reaction to finding

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Speaker 1: two skeletons, because she has no way of knowing how

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Speaker 1: recent these skeletons are. They're fairly well preserved.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this could.

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Speaker 1: Be from a couple of years ago. This could be

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Speaker 1: people she knows, This could.

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Speaker 2: Be I don't know how long it takes for a

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Speaker 2: body to like fully decompose.

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Speaker 1: I mean, not longer than a few years, So this

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Speaker 1: could be. We don't know. We don't know, but they're

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Speaker 1: from the early nineteenth century, and it seems like she

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Speaker 1: knows that based on She's like, oh my god, the

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Speaker 1: protagonists of First Cow.

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Speaker 2: This is awesome, yes, because we flash back to eighteen

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Speaker 2: twenties Organ territory. So it's wild wild West vibes, It's

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Speaker 2: Oregon Trail vibes.

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Speaker 1: Well Smith is there fighting a big spider.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's dying of dysentery. A man is in the woods

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Speaker 2: picking mushrooms. This is Otis Figowitz, though he goes.

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Speaker 1: By cooking Gueenie.

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Speaker 2: I mean both names that are food, I.

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Speaker 1: Know, I mean and the same sort of like mappy,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the little hair cut and the little

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Speaker 1: like I'm just a guy, I don't know, like the vibe.

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Speaker 3: I'm coming around on this. Get John Magro to play

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Speaker 3: Linguini in the live action rather they are a bound

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Speaker 3: to make right.

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Speaker 1: He would be so good.

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Speaker 2: So he's traveling with a band of fur trappers, and

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Speaker 2: they're headed to a place called Fort Tillicum. Cookie is

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Speaker 2: in charge of finding and cooking them food on their journey,

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Speaker 2: but this is a difficult task and their food supply

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Speaker 2: is running low, and they keep getting on Cookie's case

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Speaker 2: about it. That night, as he's like scavenging for more food,

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Speaker 2: he meets another traveler, an immigrant from China named King

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Speaker 2: Lou played by Orian Lee, who is here on this

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Speaker 2: continent in hopes of finding gold or just like any

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Speaker 2: kind of prospect, but he hasn't had any luck, and

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Speaker 2: right now there are some Russian men chasing him because

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Speaker 2: he may have killed one of their friends.

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Speaker 3: He's also crucially nude.

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Speaker 1: Right buck naked. I love Kinglu so much, like he's

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Speaker 1: so cool, especially how calmly he presents. Kinglu is a

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Speaker 1: certified yapper. I really really like him. Where he's he's

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Speaker 1: always just yapping it up. He presents all information matter

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Speaker 1: of factly, whether it is like regardless of what. He's like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm being chased, and cause he's like why, He's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I may have killed someone, and Cookie is like tight, tight, tight,

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Speaker 1: and it works, and he's like, Okay, I guess come

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Speaker 1: with me. Where you get the filling where if King

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Speaker 1: Lou appeared panicked, the events of the movie couldn't happen.

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Speaker 1: But he's got a very cool head, cool as a cucumber.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and like compared to the horrible vibe of the trappers,

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Speaker 3: that the horrible, awful vibe of those terrible men. Yes,

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Speaker 3: it's like, oh, we got a guy I can chop

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Speaker 3: it up with. Come sleep in my tent please.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally makes sense where Cookie's like, all right,

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Speaker 1: so maybe he killed a Russian guy, but he seems

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Speaker 1: like he can hang and I don't know anyone like that,

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Speaker 1: and that's sort of how they come together.

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Speaker 2: Also, he killed the Russian guy because the Russian guys

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Speaker 2: killed his friend. Yeah, but it's implied that his friend

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Speaker 2: was stealing from them, So you know, it's like a

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Speaker 2: chicken in the egg kind of thing. Who was the

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Speaker 2: first person to do something wrong? We don't know.

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Speaker 1: They're cut from the same cloth. Yeah, Cookie and King Lou,

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Speaker 1: And I also feel like Cookie. It just based on

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Speaker 1: and again it's like we don't get a lot of expository,

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00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,440
Speaker 1: like Kelly makes you work for it, But I feel

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Speaker 1: like Cookie in some ways, like there's something in the

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Speaker 1: other that Cookie would like to be more like Kinglu

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Speaker 1: in some ways, and vice versa. They compliment each other

386
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Speaker 1: very well.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, Cookie finds King Lou. He gives him some

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Speaker 2: water and lets him sleep at the campsite that night.

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Speaker 2: The next day, King Lou kind of disappears. Cookie manages

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Speaker 2: to catch some fish in a net as he's by

391
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Speaker 2: the river or I don't even know if Cookie sees this,

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Speaker 2: but we see a cow being brought to land, the

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Speaker 2: first cow.

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Speaker 1: And we start cheering, Yeah, go crazy, Oh, it's so

395
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Speaker 1: good on her, like she's on a raft. Yeah, but

396
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Speaker 1: it feels like she's being brought in on like an

397
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Speaker 1: ancient Roman litter, Like she's just drifting into frame and

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Speaker 1: it's incredible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it looks like a like a classical painting of

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Speaker 3: like a like actory preyed in Rome or something. There's

401
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,880
Speaker 3: just like, yeah, it's incredible. Yes, I got a big

402
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Speaker 3: foam finger. That's his cow, and I'm holding.

403
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Speaker 1: It up waving it around, and the one it indicates

404
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Speaker 1: which cow it is, the first?

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Speaker 2: Right, we will learn that this is the first cow

406
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Speaker 2: in the Oregon Territory, which a rich man from England

407
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:29,359
Speaker 2: named Chief Factor had shipped to this area so that

408
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Speaker 2: he could have milk in his tea. Shortly after this,

409
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Speaker 2: Cookie arrives at the fort. Then he goes to a

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Speaker 2: saloon where he encounters King Lou again, who invites Cookie

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Speaker 2: back to his cabin in the woods for a drink.

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Speaker 2: This is a funny scene because Cookie is supposed to

413
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Speaker 2: be watching a baby while the baby's father is busy

414
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Speaker 2: being in a like a bar brawl.

415
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Speaker 1: Again, that like the beginning to a totally different movie

416
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Speaker 1: about the baby.

417
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Speaker 2: I know, I thought the baby was gonna come back. No,

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Speaker 2: I kept thinking this movie was going to be about

419
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Speaker 2: so many different things. Because when they go back to

420
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Speaker 2: Kinglo's cabin, I'm like, and they're like drinking, I'm like,

421
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 2: is this gonna become like a Broke Back Mountain type story?

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Speaker 1: Because I especially because they were they're skeletons. I mean,

423
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: we're let you sort of guess early on, okay, these

424
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: are the You're like, yeah, they're they're met laying beside

425
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 1: each other, and you're sort of like, dare I hope?

426
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Speaker 1: I know?

427
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 3: But yeah, And there's a like beautiful little domestic scene

428
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 3: where like you keep seeing Kinglu in the window like

429
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 3: outside doing like man stuff.

430
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 2: Chopping firewood exactly.

431
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 3: It's like chopping firewood inside Cookies, like tidying up and

432
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 3: hoping he doesn't like notice that he's like sweeping his

433
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 3: house and putting potted flowers on the shelves and stuff.

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Speaker 1: They're so complimentary, like it's really lovely. But they're just friends.

435
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,120
Speaker 1: It's cool, just friends, guys, they're just friends.

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00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 2: They should have kissed, but yeah, they're just friends.

437
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: I feel like they didn't not kiss too, because I

438
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: feel like Kelly keeps you guessing. You don't know they

439
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: didn't kiss.

440
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were spiritually kissing.

441
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 2: We just didn't see them kiss on screen.

442
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 3: But that house did not have two beds.

443
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, true, because like eventually Cookie just moves in with

444
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,239
Speaker 2: King Lou. Anyway, Cookie is supposed to be babysitting this

445
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,880
Speaker 2: random stranger's baby and King Lou's like, leave the baby,

446
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 2: it's fine, let's go have a drink. So they're chatting,

447
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 2: and King Lou talks about how this is the land

448
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 2: of opportunity and that he's biding his time until he

449
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 2: can capitalize on some opportunity and hopefully become rich. He's

450
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 2: had different ideas on how to do this, such as

451
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 2: selling beaver oil from beaver glands, but again nothing really

452
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 2: has panned out. Cookie says that he would like to

453
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 2: open a hotel or a bakery someday. And this is

454
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 2: a seed that gets planted in King Lou's and he

455
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 2: keeps talking about a hotel.

456
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: He's a yapper.

457
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 2: Then Cookie sees Chief Factor's cow and tells King Lou

458
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 2: about it. He's like, I'd love some of that milk

459
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: to use for baking, and King Lou is like, okay, pitch,

460
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 2: let's go steal milk from the cow. So they do.

461
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 2: They sneak over to Chief Factor's house at night. King

462
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: Lou is on the lookout while Cookie milks the cow.

463
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: And he's like also empathizing with the cow, yes, which

464
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: is a plot point.

465
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 2: Weirdly, they bond, They bond. They become good friends.

466
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: Linguini, I'm telling.

467
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: You Linguini and a rat, Cookie and a cow first rat. Okay.

468
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 2: So they return to the cabin with the milk. The

469
00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,479
Speaker 2: next day, Cookie makes some biscuits. King Lou is like, yummy, yummy,

470
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 2: we should take these to the fort and sell them.

471
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: Cookie is hesitant, but they go for it because Cookie

472
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 2: is kind of a doormat he'll just go along with whatever,

473
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: and right away the men at the fort buy all

474
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: the biscuits. They're like, hubba, hubba, these are delicious.

475
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: And King Lu sort of preys on their own racism

476
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 1: to avoid describing the ingredients. Yeah.

477
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, he says, like, oh, it's an ancient Chinese secret

478
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: kind of thing.

479
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Meanwhile, it's the first cow.

480
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 2: It's the milk of the first cow. Yes, that night

481
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: they steal more milk from the cow, and the next

482
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: day it's much the same, where the biscuits fly off

483
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: the shelf. It's almost like these hot cakes are selling

484
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 2: like hotcakes. I was really excited to write that down.

485
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 3: Anyway.

486
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: I was thrilled. I was thrilled. Yeah.

487
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: So this goes on for like a few weeks, it seems,

488
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: where they steal milk at night, use it to bake

489
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: tasty treats and sell them at a pretty steep markup.

490
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: They're charging I think the equivalent of at least five

491
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: whiskey shots for a biscuit. Yes, which is wild to

492
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: think about because I feel like in current dollars during

493
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: happy hour, that's still fifty.

494
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 2: Dollars, like two dollars a biscuit. Yeah, and then they

495
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 2: charge we'll get to this part. But Chief Factor comes

496
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: around eventually and they charge him double, so he's paying

497
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 2: one hundred dollars a biscuit. The point is they're making

498
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 2: quite a bit of money from this endeavor, which they

499
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 2: hide in a tree because eighteen twenty.

500
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 3: It's so funny because he's like, we got to put

501
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 3: this in a bank, and they're like, yeah, a bank,

502
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 3: like a tree.

503
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 1: I honestly the way things are headed right now. I

504
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: was like a tree bank. Not the worst idea, not

505
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: the worst, not the worst, bring it back.

506
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 2: So one day Chief Factor played by Toby Jones, one

507
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 2: of my favorite character actors.

508
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 1: He's so great great.

509
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 2: He comes by and he buys a biscuit and we're

510
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 2: all wondering if he's going to notice that milk is

511
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: one of the ingredients. Milk that would have to come

512
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: from his cow because he has the first and only

513
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: cow in the region.

514
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: But he doesn't notice it, for I mean, which is

515
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: fun because he's, you know, the most powerful colonizer in

516
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: the story, and he is not smart. He's a bit

517
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: of a dunce yes. And it also I think really again,

518
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: like subtly shows like the power of like how nostalgia

519
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: is something that can result in you not asking questions.

520
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: You should probably ask where. He literally says, this tastes

521
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: like London, and it's like, we'll think a little harder

522
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: about why that might be. But he's just so like

523
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: thrilled to have this taste of his past that he

524
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: doesn't ask questions until like forced.

525
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: That's the power of the milk, the power of the cow.

526
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,479
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, I just hate it when I'm

527
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 3: enjoying a Priustine reverie and people use that as an

528
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 3: opportunity to take advantage of me.

529
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: I cannot stand it.

530
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 3: You're most vulnerable, my most prustian people are.

531
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: Anyway. Yeah, Chief Factor loves the biscuit and he asks

532
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 2: Cookie if he can make him a cloth foo tea.

533
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 2: I don't know how to say this claffo tea.

534
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: I google. It's like fruit pizza. I don't know.

535
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 3: It's like a set custard with fruit in it. Again,

536
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 3: I was so lucky to be watching this with my wife,

537
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: who is a food writer. Helpful yeah, and I just

538
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 3: turned her. I was like, hey, what's it? What's a

539
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 3: claffoo tee?

540
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: Please?

541
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 3: Thank you. I actually wrote this down because I love

542
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: the line so much. He was talking about like a

543
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: captain coming by to his house for high tea and

544
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 3: he loves claffootees, but he thinks that, like the Frontier

545
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 3: is too savage, and he just goes, well, the captain

546
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: loves a klaffootee and I'd like to humiliate him. You're

547
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: like just bitches, like anyone's ever said.

548
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: I okay, possibly queer icon chief Factor.

549
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 3: I love these queens, Yeah, because I mean.

550
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: The characters keep basically referring to Chief Factor. They're like,

551
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: what kind of woman is he? He likes milk in

552
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 2: his tea and he knows about the latest clothing fashion

553
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: from France.

554
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: It's complicated because you're like, ultimately he is the colonizer. Yeah,

555
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: so it's okay to bully him, but like it. But

556
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: also he's being the bully in a very particular way.

557
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: Right, yes, yes, anyway, Chief Factor wants to humiliate a

558
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 2: guest of his with a klaffou tee and cookies, Like, sure,

559
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,479
Speaker 2: I'll make that. So he makes it and brings it

560
00:29:54,520 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: to Chief Factor's house where he's entertaining this captain as

561
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: well as a couple native guests. Lily Gladstone is there

562
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: and apparently she is Chief Factor's wife, because her character's name,

563
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 2: according to IMDb is wait for it, chief Factor's.

564
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: Wife Kelly There. I mean, yeah, I have some thoughts

565
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: that because Lily Gladstone is a Kelly Roger company player.

566
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: I guess where she's appeared in a lot of her work.

567
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: And that was like, well, we'll get into That was

568
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: one of the things where it's like there's a lot

569
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: in this movie that's left unsaid and like left for

570
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: the viewer to sort of clean on their own. And

571
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: she is like the character that I wish there had

572
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: been more explicitly said about because it's like, yeah, she's

573
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: married a chief factor. What does that mean? What were

574
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: the circumstances? Like, you can guess, but you just don't.

575
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 2: You don't know, We don't know. Also in this scene,

576
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: Chief Factor mentions that his cow gives very little milk

577
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: and wonders if there's something wrong with her. So they

578
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: all take a walk to see the cow, which affectionately

579
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: nuzzles Cookie since he milks her every night, and they've

580
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 2: become friends.

581
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: And tells her his little secrets and he's like, I'm sorry,

582
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: he's like literally her therapist.

583
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like I'm sorry about your husband and your

584
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 2: child because we learned that originally three cows were supposed

585
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: to be brought to the territory. It was a cow

586
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: a bowl slash, her husband and their baby, but only

587
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: the cow survived the trip. Anyway, the cow nuzzles Cookie

588
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: and everyone notices and they're like, hmm, that was kind

589
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 2: of weird. And then that night, Cookie and King Lou

590
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: head back to steal more milk from Chief Factors cow

591
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: and I'm like, don't do it when they have all

592
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: these guests around who could see you, But they do

593
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 2: it anyway. Also, King Lou has been talking about opening

594
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 2: up a hotel in San Francisco using the money that

595
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: they've been earning, and their plan is to sell biscuits

596
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: for a little while longer and then heads south. So

597
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 2: this is why they need to make another trip to

598
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: the cow. But that night, as Cookie is milking the cow,

599
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: they are spotted by and I believe this is Chief Factors,

600
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: like servant the Chief and the captain chase after Cookie

601
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: and King Lou with guns.

602
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 3: And also spud from Trainspotting.

603
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: Is there, Yes, yes he is.

604
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: I still have seen it. I still have seen train

605
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: spotting is.

606
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 3: A huge like, Yeah, the Scottish guy is in Trainspotting

607
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 3: and he's incredible, and I think both both things.

608
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: The Scottish guy would be in Trainspotting and makes a

609
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: lot of sense.

610
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: Okay, his name Jamie in real life, this actor's name

611
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 2: is oh, you in Bremner.

612
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna try it. You don't Wancottish Scottish names.

613
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: They're just like, really really challenging for me. They can't.

614
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: It's okay, I'm irish, I can't.

615
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 2: Anyway, he is there. He's also the one who tells

616
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 2: the audience about the circumstances of the first cow, so

617
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: he's a very important character anyway. Cookie and King Lou

618
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: managed to get away for a while, but they get

619
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: separated and they're both injured. Cookie ends up in a

620
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: stranger's house. Apparently someone found him in the woods and

621
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 2: brought him home to tend to his injury. Meanwhile, King

622
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: Lou negotiates with a native man to take him down

623
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: river in his canoe. Eventually, Cookie and King Lou both

624
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: make it back to their cabin, but it's not safe

625
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: for them to stay, so they set off again. Although

626
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: Cookie is lightly dying from his head injury, and they're

627
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: both being hunted by a young man who we've seen

628
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: before at the fort. This is a man who wanted

629
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: to buy biscuits, plant.

630
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: And pay off with this guy while except it doesn't.

631
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,439
Speaker 4: Quite pay off, well, just the fact that he comes back,

632
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 4: like you think the baby's gotta come back.

633
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 3: I always assumed that it was him that does them

634
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:17,399
Speaker 3: at the end.

635
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 2: I think it's safe to assume we don't see that

636
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 2: on screen. Basically, this man wanted to buy biscuits, but

637
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: the other men would always cut him in line and

638
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 2: he never got a chance to taste the biscuits. And

639
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: so now he's possibly going to shoot them over this

640
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 2: biscuit vendetta. Except it's actually that there's like a bounty

641
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: on their head and he's like trying to collect on

642
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: the bounty. I'm guessing, but we don't see this quite payoff,

643
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: because if he does kill them, it doesn't happen on

644
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: screen anyway. They stop to rest Cookie and King Lou,

645
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: but they both pass out in the same position that

646
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: all your show cap finds them in finds the skeletons

647
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 2: in at the beginning of the movie, so presumably they

648
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: die shortly after this. Either via the man who wanted biscuits,

649
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: or they just die from their injuries were not totally

650
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: sure honestly.

651
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: All things considered, I hope it is from the Biscuit

652
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 1: Mand because I think I jumped to like assuming they

653
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: died a slower death. I hope that that's not true.

654
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, See, to me, I felt like I drew

655
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 3: a pretty straight line to that being the Biscuit Boy

656
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 3: m hm, because there's so much in this movie that's

657
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 3: to me about like the various levels of being perceived

658
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 3: as womanly of all these men, like Cookies, like immediately

659
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,919
Speaker 3: off the bat, like he's so soft. King Lou also

660
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 3: like clearly doesn't fit in with like this very masculine

661
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 3: society that they're they're living in. Uh. The chief factor

662
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 3: is like again like seen as like effemineate and this

663
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 3: little this little boy is like the Biscuit Boy is.

664
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,479
Speaker 3: To me, he's so framed as like a fruity little

665
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 3: guy and everyone, yeah clearly is treating treating him that way.

666
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 3: So like, how what better way to prove yourself to

667
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: Spud than to Achilles to kill the other fruits? You know?

668
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: Oh God, It's almost like masculinity is a prison I

669
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: wouldn't know anything about that.

670
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 2: Also, very similar themes are explored in the Power of

671
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: the Dog, just saying.

672
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: Caitlin's desperately trying to backtrack their own mists. All women

673
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: look the same to you.

674
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 2: No, I don't even know who directed the movie. At first,

675
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: I was just like, these are the same movie because

676
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 2: they're about animals question Mark anyway.

677
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 3: Anyway, the Power of the Dog is about a mountain.

678
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: But that's the end of the movie. So let's take

679
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: another quick break and we'll come back for the discussion.

680
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 2: And we're back.

681
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: It's Jane camp be It who directed The Power of

682
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: the Dog.

683
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 3: A different woman, but we're talking about first Cat.

684
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, where do we met, Maddie? Where would you like

685
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: to start? What jumps out to you about this film?

686
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 3: I think what sticks out to me so much is

687
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 3: this sort of like the stuff that it's all not

688
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 3: to be like it's like jazz. But there's so much

689
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 3: about this movie that is about I think masculinely and

690
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 3: about colonization that is only really you're seeing white men,

691
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 3: but there's all these like weird little pockets that the

692
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 3: camera lingers, or there's a moment that stays there that

693
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 3: makes you think about it really hard, Like I think

694
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 3: about we were talking about like how Lily Gladstone only

695
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 3: really gets this one second. But then there's like this

696
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 3: long moment where she and I think who was supposed

697
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 3: to be her mother in law or a sister I

698
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 3: can't but like another native woman sit on the couch

699
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 3: and just start having a conversation about what they're wearing. Yeah,

700
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 3: and the camera just stays there for like a long time,

701
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 3: like longer than I think most writers would leave it there,

702
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 3: and it seems so intentional to me. And then yeah,

703
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: there's all this stuff about like like what this society

704
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 3: of like mostly men, like hyper capitalist expansionist colonialism, like

705
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 3: what it's doing to the land and the people there,

706
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 3: and there's all this stuff about. Like the line that

707
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: will never leave my head about this movie is that

708
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 3: it's something King Lou says early and he says like.

709
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: History isn't here yet, yes, yeah.

710
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 3: And Cookie's like, what do you mean it's old? I

711
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 3: mean the first time you see the cow, it's like, wow,

712
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 3: this beautiful cow is coming in, like here comes civilization,

713
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 3: here comes milk, and this like finally there's food and

714
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 3: all the people are like wow, food finally. But the

715
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 3: first thing you see after you see the cow is

716
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 3: there's like some native women on the shore, like mortar

717
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 3: and pestling some grain right there, like the food ways exist,

718
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 3: it's all there. Yeah, And I think all this, all

719
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: these little subtle nods to what's going on, are not

720
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 3: Like there's a lot of movies that would would be like, oh,

721
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 3: like here's me lip service, like like like a Leave

722
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 3: of their own or something where the ball rolls out

723
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 3: of bounds and you see the three black women like

724
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 3: waving from very far away, Like there's a lot of

725
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 3: movies that do that kind of stuff.

726
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: Or the the I feel like my go to of

727
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: like in queer representation is Josh Gadd dancing with a

728
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: man at the end of Beauty and the Beast.

729
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 3: Oh is that what they did?

730
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 2: For three seconds?

731
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: We did it? Yeah, oh god damn it.

732
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think so much of this is like

733
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 3: it is the point of it, like these these little,

734
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 3: these little gaps.

735
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really interested to talk about it because it's

736
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: like I do agree that like where she lingers is

737
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: very intentional, and I know it's like such a part

738
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: of her process to leave things on said and then

739
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: there's like the yeah, the tendency to focus on white

740
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: characters in terms of like who do we know the

741
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: most about, which I do think is true of this

742
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 1: I guess with the exception of King Loup, but I don't. Yeah.

743
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: I watched this movie twice and and then by the end,

744
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: by the end of the second watch, I was like,

745
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: I think that, like, ultimately this movie is about like

746
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: American capitalism finding it's footing basically, but this this moment

747
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: where like indigenous food sovereignty is taking a very particular turn,

748
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: and what we see her I would also I was

749
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: looking for more I wasn't able to find very much.

750
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: But I'm really curious what Indigenous American viewers think about

751
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: this movie because I felt as if, like I don't know,

752
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: like you don't. It's not like Kelly Reichert's style to

753
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: focus on like the peak of violence that comes with colonialism.

754
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: She's focusing on this like day to day normalizing of

755
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: colonial ideas, and like through the Toby Jones character, I

756
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: think it's like, yeah, there's a lot going on with

757
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: him where he's treated like he's very effeminate. He's like,

758
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 1: you know, people are teasing him for that, but you're

759
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: also like he is unequivocally the colonizer, the person with

760
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: the most power.

761
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the second his day little Tea is

762
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 3: threatened that he sends people to kill them.

763
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 1: This is all about his like his tea party, Yeah, basically,

764
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: And you can tell, like one of the moments that

765
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: stuck with me is like the criticism I have because

766
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: it's like a big scene where the high Tea is

767
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: a big scene in the movie, and you don't know

768
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: initially that there's going to be Indigenous people at this part.

769
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: He just is like, this is it's going to be

770
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 1: high t We don't know. He's married to Lily Gladstone.

771
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's safe to assume that that

772
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: marriage was either forced or one of convenience for the

773
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: survival of Lily Gladstone's people. It doesn't seem like it's

774
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: a marriage based on love. Which is interesting that like

775
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: Lily Gladstone has been cast in that part more than once, right,

776
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: because it it isn't it's a different part from Killers

777
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 1: of the Flower Moon, But I was reminded of like

778
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: she's put in a similar position, which also by a

779
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: white director, right, but that like you see that Toby

780
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 1: Jones's character clearly thinks he's like being a good guy

781
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: by welcoming indigenous people into his home and clearly does

782
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:21,280
Speaker 1: not care or doesn't understand that he is bending everyone

783
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: in this room to his will, regardless of race. Like

784
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 1: Cookie is also bending to his will, King Lou is

785
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: also bending to his will to like maintain what he

786
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: perceives as reality because he holds the power. And then

787
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: like through our friend miss Evie, he has the means

788
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: of production. It's also about means of production. They don't

789
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: own the means of production, so it can never sustain.

790
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 2: Ah, I don't know, yeah, my I think big criticism

791
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: of the movie is that we are watching white settlers

792
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 2: act colonize the land and claim its resources as their own,

793
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: whether it's like the animal pelts that the fur trappers

794
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 2: are taking, or the it seems like there's a mine

795
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: like a silver or a gold mine or something whatever,

796
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 2: the minerals, the animals, the food, everything, it's being stolen.

797
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 2: And we see the native characters on screen whose land

798
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 2: is being stolen, but I feel like they're mostly treated

799
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,240
Speaker 2: as kind of set dressing. Yeah, for sure, we don't

800
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 2: get any interiority for them.

801
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: At all.

802
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 2: We barely see them speak. There's that scene where I

803
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: don't know if it is Lily Gladstone's sister or friend,

804
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 2: and then she seems to be partnered with the Native

805
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 2: man who is a guest at Chief Factor's house. We

806
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: don't know anything about the dynamics, names, name anything, so

807
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 2: could have I mean, the movie's not afraid to like

808
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 2: take some time with scenes and like take some time

809
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: to let you in on some information, but it neglects

810
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: to do that at the expense of not letting the

811
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 2: audience know anything about the indigenous characters.

812
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: It's felt like a deliberate choice that I couldn't find

813
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: any I mean, let me know if others found examples

814
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: of her speaking to this point, but it doesn't seem.

815
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 1: And also like from what I can sort of glean

816
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: from her larger body of work that she is not

817
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: like trying to shy away from indigenous history in Oregon

818
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: and like the history of her own community. But and like,

819
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: while so many of the themes of this movie tie

820
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: back to Indigenous Oregonians, we don't get to know them.

821
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 1: And I'm like, why was that choice made? Because it's

822
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: not like she's avoiding the reality of it, So I don't, like, Yeah,

823
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: the people that she sort of decides to focus on, Yeah,

824
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 1: I was like why why? And also because we find

825
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: out very late in the movie that King Lou has

826
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: spent time with indigenous communities enough to have a basic

827
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: grip on the language, right, And you're like, okay, so

828
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: even with the characters we've chosen to zone in on,

829
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 1: Kinglu has a history in these indigenous communities. Like where,

830
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, I think what everyone think.

831
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, for me, I think again, this comes back to

832
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 3: the framing of it, where it's like, you do start

833
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 3: thinking about history and what we know and what we

834
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 3: do not know about the past, and we don't know

835
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:31,479
Speaker 3: about the interiority of a lot of these people because

836
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 3: they were wiped out by the other characters in the movie.

837
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 3: And to me anyways, like again, like I don't I

838
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 3: don't think it is an unfair criticism to talk about

839
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 3: this at all, But to me, anyways, it seems like

840
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 3: the interiority for the people is there, but like you're not,

841
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 3: it is happening on the edges. It feels like you've

842
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 3: ever seen big trouble in Little China?

843
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 2: No, yeah, I don't remember it. Super well.

844
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 3: But yeah, so like the whole thing is that there's

845
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 3: a movie going on to the background that Kurt Russell

846
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 3: is not aware of. And at the end, they're all like,

847
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 3: what the fuck are you doing here, white guy, Like

848
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 3: get out, like the other movie already happened without you.

849
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 3: And I think there is sort of this like why

850
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 3: why does she keep showing these people like I don't

851
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 3: It didn't strike me so much as as like set

852
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 3: decorations did, like I wanted to know more, and then

853
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 3: you think to yourself, why don't I know more? And

854
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 3: I also think it feels intentional that like King Lou

855
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 3: isn't just another white person, he is also an immigrant

856
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 3: that is not, you know, not a colonizer in the

857
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 3: same way. And yet it shows this like perniciousness of

858
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 3: the idea of getting on side with the colonizers, right

859
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 3: like if you're if you are considered effeminate, you can

860
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 3: get on side by acting macho enough. If you are

861
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 3: not white and people are racist to him, yeah, like

862
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 3: if you're not, if you're not in the club, you

863
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 3: can try to get in the club because look how

864
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 3: nice it is to be there. The older native gentleman

865
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 3: that's over chief factors is like wearing a suit, you know,

866
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,439
Speaker 3: to me, so much of it is sort of like, yeah,

867
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 3: this pernicious drive to join in, Yeah, and how how

868
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,919
Speaker 3: attractive it can look to people who are who would

869
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 3: be on the outside of otherwise.

870
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: Right, And like the conclusion that the story comes to,

871
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: which is like, unfortunately, the general result is that if

872
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,720
Speaker 1: you exist on the margins of society in any way,

873
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: chances are you're gonna get fucked. And because and we

874
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: find that out at the very beginning, learning that you know,

875
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: in spite of their ingenuity, in spite of their skill,

876
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: in spite of all of it, they're still killed.

877
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: And they will be skeletons soon, right.

878
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: And Maddie's speaking to your point, like it's all the

879
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: more tragic if they're sort of taken out by this

880
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 1: other character who is aspiring to see more masculine to

881
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: succeed in the same system that will probably end up

882
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: getting him.

883
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 3: Anyways, Yeah, they're not gonna You can't. You can't not

884
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,879
Speaker 3: be cut in the Businese line. If there's no biscuits anymore.

885
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: Kids, there's no one you couldn't. I mean, did you

886
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,280
Speaker 1: get the recipe at gunpoint? Did you think but also

887
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: but also it doesn't matter because he doesn't own the cow.

888
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: Like the cow as the means of production is like

889
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. I yeah, I think like it seems

890
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: like we're all sort of on the same page with Like,

891
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: I think there was room in this movie to include

892
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: at least an indigenous character. I know it's a very

893
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: like broad like there's not a lot of central focused characters,

894
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: even if she's being sparing in the narrative, there was

895
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: room for it. And I'm curious if there was any

896
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: point in writing the script. I know this was also adapted,

897
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 1: but if there was any point in writing the script

898
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: where that was on the table, because it's also like

899
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: you've got Lily Gladstone, Like why is she in the

900
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: movie for three minutes? Yeah, as far as King lu goes,

901
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: I think it's like, uh yeah, the where I sat

902
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: with it, it's I don't know, it sounds very like

903
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 1: corny to put it this way and kind of almost

904
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,839
Speaker 1: undercuts the movie itself. But like King Lou is sort

905
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: of buying into the idea of the American dream being

906
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: accessible and finding out that it isn't. And it seems

907
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 1: like I don't know if it's because of Cookies, we

908
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,240
Speaker 1: don't really know, like if it's Cookie's experiences in Boston,

909
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: if it's because of just like his personality. He seems

910
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: sort of less inclined to buy into it, but of

911
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: course it's so appealing, and King Lou really believes in

912
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: it and has the juice sort of like he has

913
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: the ambition, he has the plan, and it works for

914
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: a while. I feel like, like as often these kind

915
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 1: of stories go where it's like it works until you

916
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: threaten someone too powerful and then you're cast out.

917
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 3: I think also in terms of like the two central

918
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 3: characters being colonizers or immigrants or whatever. I mean, Cookie figure,

919
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 3: it's obviously a Jewish guy. This is like I think

920
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 3: I believe canonical. He is a like I think at an interview,

921
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 3: Kelly Recard's like, yeah, it's Jewish guy. He's at West.

922
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 3: So he's also like way outside of like he you know,

923
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 3: there's no way his family got to Maryland that long ago.

924
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 3: There weren't a lot of Jews in the early eighteen

925
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 3: hundreds in America. We just weren't here yet. And so

926
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 3: I think I think that's also just an interesting thing

927
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 3: in terms of like, yeah, like that that buy into

928
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 3: the American dream that is so appealing to these people.

929
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah.

930
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: King Lou has a line at one point where he says,

931
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 2: men like us have to make our own way. We

932
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,320
Speaker 2: have to take what we can when the taking is good.

933
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: Jack Tawson vibes, first of all, true.

934
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically the speech that Jack gives as he's eating

935
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 2: caviar and toasting Champagne on the Titanic.

936
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 3: Lou also gets on a boat in this movie.

937
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: It's true, Okay, so ratituy Titanic. There's a lot. There's

938
00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: a lot going on.

939
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 2: Basically, when the cow is on the faery, she's like,

940
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 2: I'm king.

941
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 1: Of the world.

942
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 3: Exact.

943
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 2: But yeah, it just speaks to like, we've already touched

944
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 2: on the seeds of American capitalism that have been planted

945
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 2: and are very rapidly growing. And you have a ruling

946
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 2: class who you know, owns the mine or owns the

947
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 2: fur company, or you know whatever, and then everyone else

948
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 2: who is either being actively colonized and having their land

949
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 2: and resources stolen, or it's settlers who are trying to,

950
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 2: you know, make it in this landscape, which is very difficult,

951
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: if not impossible, because they have to resort to. And

952
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 2: I'm not against stealing from the ruling class, but it's

953
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 2: what they have to do. And then what's the what

954
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 2: there's a story where it's like they steal from the

955
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: guy and then feed.

956
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: Whatever.

957
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 2: I feel like it's kind of like a tale as

958
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 2: old as time where it's like stealing from the rich

959
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 2: person and then like feeding this stuff back to them

960
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 2: and then.

961
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: They're robin hooding to themselves.

962
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 4: There right fight club, where it's like we're stealing like whatever,

963
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 4: the like liposuction materials out of the garbage and making

964
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 4: it into soap to sell back.

965
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: To kind of sweety Todd.

966
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 2: To sweety Tea. Yeah, does this happen in Fried Green Tomatoes?

967
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,919
Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah, well just the one time, but just.

968
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 2: In any case. So this is this is what they do,

969
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 2: and it's I mean, I think, a great idea, but

970
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: ultimately a doomed endeavor because the you know, the rich

971
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 2: guy finds out that he's being stolen from and is

972
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:06,399
Speaker 2: like kill those motherfuckers and then they die lying next

973
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:06,919
Speaker 2: to each other.

974
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 3: I keep thinking about the point you're raising about the

975
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 3: means of production. I keep thinking about because I'm such

976
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 3: a visual thinker, which again why I think so much

977
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 3: of the movie to me is like it's so visual

978
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 3: in terms of what it wants you to know, for

979
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 3: such a quiet movie, for such a talking movie, it's

980
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 3: so visual. But I keep thinking about the after they

981
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 3: steal from the cow. The next time you see the cow,

982
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 3: there's like a fence around it that's like so small,

983
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 3: and like that's what that's the only thing they know

984
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,720
Speaker 3: how to do. Yeah, right, is make smaller and smaller fences.

985
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. I mean I think a lot of it.

986
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: And the cow, Evie, I'll say it, she's the most

987
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 1: interesting character in the movie. And like I think, like

988
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: as a symbol for a lot of experiences where we

989
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: don't really know the circumstances under which Cookie or King

990
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: Lou came to the US. We don't know if they

991
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: were brought there forcibly, we don't know if they brought

992
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: if they went there voluntarily. We don't know if they

993
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: went there because they were fleeing something, you know, And

994
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 1: I think that's intentional. I think like the characters like

995
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 1: we're supposed to sort of you know, headcan and what

996
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 1: we think is going on. But the same goes for

997
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 1: Evie the cow, because like I read. There was a

998
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: great Pop Matters piece about this by Caitlin Jurgens that

999
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: came out around the time that the movie became available

1000
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 1: for streaming that sort of illustrates how this movie can

1001
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: be perceived as something about food sovereignty and how cows,

1002
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 1: as I often forget, are an invasive species in America

1003
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: to some extent, they are not native to the US,

1004
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: and their arrival in US. In the US, while it

1005
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 1: was not the fault of the cows, and I kind

1006
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 1: of like that, we get the backstory that the cow

1007
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: has also endured quite a bit of loss and trauma

1008
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,760
Speaker 1: in order to be brought here for objectively a silly

1009
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: reason like if you needed milking your tea that bad.

1010
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 1: Don't colonize another continent just to stay where you're from,

1011
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: but you know the animals.

1012
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 3: So where's the tea from, dude?

1013
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 1: It's like, come on. But like, the animal also suffers

1014
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 1: tremendously in order to give a small convenience to a colonizer.

1015
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 1: But what the cow also can represent is like sort

1016
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 1: of the end of indigenous food sovereignty, which I feel

1017
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 1: like is this piece argues that even though it is

1018
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 1: not explicitly stated, and even though we do not get

1019
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: to know the indigenous characters, which again I wish we did,

1020
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 1: but that it seems like this marriage could be seen

1021
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 1: as indigenous communities trying to deal with colonizers doing stuff

1022
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: like this, because like food sovereignty is defined, I'm gonna

1023
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: get in my bag. The twenty nineteen book Indigenous Food

1024
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 1: Sovereignty in the United States by Devin A. Mehesua and

1025
00:55:54,880 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Hoover defines food sovereignty as indigenous community retaining complete

1026
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 1: control of their food systems, from production to distribution to sustainability.

1027
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: And of course there are many many threats to this,

1028
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: but the image of the cow and the milk itself

1029
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: is a threat to food sovereignty. It is bringing in

1030
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 1: something that is not native to the country. It is

1031
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: an animal that the indigenous community does not have familiarity

1032
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 1: with and does not have control over, and that result

1033
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: in any number of literal or cultural violence that could

1034
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: lead to stuff like feeling pressured into marrying a colonizer

1035
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 1: to preserve the well being of your community, and so like,

1036
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:41,839
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's just there's so much more going

1037
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: on in this movie than you'd think.

1038
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's subtle and it's there for the

1039
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 2: audience's interpretation in a way that feels like to me

1040
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: at least, And maybe this is just like a personal

1041
00:56:55,600 --> 00:57:00,240
Speaker 2: preference thing, but I wish there was a little more

1042
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 2: commentary on it. They're certainly recognition of it, but I

1043
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 2: wish there was just a tad more commentary. I think,

1044
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 2: like kind of the most we get is as far

1045
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 2: as like explicit dialogue and whatnot. There's a moment where

1046
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 2: Spud from Trainspotting is talking to another man. I think

1047
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 2: they're at a saloon or something, but one of them says,

1048
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 2: this is no place for cows. If it was God

1049
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,919
Speaker 2: would have put them here, and then I think it's

1050
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 2: Spud who replies, then it's no place for white men either.

1051
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I wrote that down, I feel I mean,

1052
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: is that to me feels like pretty explicit commentary.

1053
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but I don't know. I wish there was

1054
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 2: more which we could have gotten again with getting to

1055
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 2: know the indigenous characters, who I believe are from the

1056
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 2: Chinook nation, but again we don't get that.

1057
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1058
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 2: So I do like the friendship between Cookie and King

1059
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 2: Lou though.

1060
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 3: I agree it's beautiful.

1061
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 2: It's a friendship between two men who bond over their

1062
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 2: struggle to make their way in the world. And they're

1063
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 2: both pretty calm, gentle men in this world that rewards

1064
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 2: agro behavior and violence. And we see all these scenes

1065
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 2: where like the fur trappers are getting into these brawls,

1066
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 2: or there's that man with the baby who comes into

1067
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 2: the saloon and other men are like taunting him, everyone's

1068
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 2: inciting violence around them. And then you have these two

1069
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 2: men who we focus on, and then others in the stories,

1070
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 2: such as the biscuit boy who just wants biscuits.

1071
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: And he never gets his biscuits.

1072
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 2: But the two who we get to know are Cookie

1073
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 2: and King Lou and they kind of bond over being

1074
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 2: like gentle and not aggressive in a way that I

1075
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 2: really appreciate.

1076
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny because like so much. Yeah again, maybe

1077
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 3: this is me putting my own little interests into the film,

1078
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 3: but I think there's a lot of gender in here,

1079
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 3: and so much of like what is perceived as feminine

1080
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 3: or not fitting in like I mean, hell milk, very

1081
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 3: feminine coated liquid. Uh. True, I shouldn't I should have

1082
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 3: said it like that, but I did.

1083
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 2: But like to your point, Yeah.

1084
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 3: But the idea between like like there's another calm guy

1085
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 3: in town, and it's my favorite guy we've not talked about,

1086
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 3: which is the chrow Man who's played by my dude

1087
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 3: Renel Versionoir from De Space nine. My guy Odo.

1088
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: Oh. I always think of him as like that's a

1089
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 1: Robert Oatman guy, but he is a D nine.

1090
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's also to me, he's the d Space nine

1091
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 3: man and also the chef and the little yes, but

1092
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 3: he's like also a calm guy. He's also like living

1093
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 3: kind of hermity and like not brawling or doing anything,

1094
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 3: and he only it just stares at them. He's just

1095
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 3: regarding them with suspicion, which is all he can do

1096
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 3: because it is this weird like they puts like when

1097
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 3: you are a softer gentleman, it is very much like

1098
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 3: crabs into bucket hours, like you are trying to basically

1099
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 3: not be the low person at all times because you

1100
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 3: don't want to be faced with like the maximum eyre

1101
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 3: of all the really macho guys. So I think there's

1102
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 3: there's so much of that there, I think. So the

1103
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 3: fact that they have this beautiful friendship I think is

1104
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 3: so nice and I'm glad it's not romantic like that

1105
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 3: they are just physically gentle with each other and emotionally

1106
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,440
Speaker 3: gentle with each other without having to be necessarily sexual,

1107
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 3: because it could just be like, you know, like it

1108
01:00:53,080 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 3: is possible for men, I think, to experience tenderness, right,

1109
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 3: Like you know, we had the male lowly and it's

1110
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 3: problem solved and we turned all those guys into skeletons.

1111
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. I really loved that scene between them at the end,

1112
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 1: even though you're like, oh, they're cooked, they're cooked. Where

1113
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 1: they reunite and they just like embrace each other and

1114
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: they're so happy to see each other and like that

1115
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: there is just this inherent like they see something in

1116
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 1: each other. It's a deep friendship that you're right, Maddie,

1117
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: Like it's I you know, would I have been mad

1118
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 1: if they kissed?

1119
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 2: No?

1120
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 1: But I also understand like that there's so few representations

1121
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: of like two protagonists who are men who know how

1122
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 1: to be friends, who are affectionate with each other, and

1123
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: that that can be I mean, just like friendship is

1124
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 1: a life saving force in general.

1125
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 2: And that's the quote at the beginning of the movie.

1126
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 2: It's something like a bird is the nest a spider

1127
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 2: and it's web men friendship as if like we find

1128
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 2: home and comfort and community in friendship, right.

1129
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: And it's like if they haven't, if they hadn't been

1130
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: able to like handle and that feels like a weird

1131
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: bird choice, but like they had been able to handle

1132
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 1: a friendship like that, I feel like they would have

1133
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 1: been dead way sooner.

1134
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 2: For sure.

1135
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

1136
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 2: To your point, Mattie, this is something we've talked about

1137
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 2: on different episodes. I remember it most clearly from our

1138
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 2: Lord of the Rings episode, where there is a tendency

1139
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 2: to see representations of platonic male friendship on screen and

1140
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 2: ascribe a romantic component to it. And I understand that

1141
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 2: to some extent, but it also sort of erases the

1142
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 2: idea that men can just be platonic friends with each

1143
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 2: other and have like platonic tenderness with each other, and

1144
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 2: we rarely see it on screen. But I do really

1145
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 2: appreciate when it is represented because it does exist, and

1146
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 2: it can exist, and it doesn't have to be romantic,

1147
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 2: And there are no implications in this movie that it

1148
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 2: is romantic. It's just that people often will ship characters together,

1149
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 2: I mean in society, I want to say, but yeah,

1150
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 2: I did appreciate the friendship that we see between them.

1151
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 2: I also think that there's like a gendered component to

1152
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 2: the product that Cookie is making, and that his skill

1153
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 2: is a skill that women would typically have, especially in

1154
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 2: this era, and would be expected to have as far

1155
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 2: as like baking, and he's able to make these delicious

1156
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 2: baked goods that remind these men of something their mama

1157
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 2: used to make, which is one of the characters says,

1158
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 2: because they are selling them at this fort that seems

1159
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 2: to be occupied by mostly there are some women around,

1160
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:06,320
Speaker 2: but they're indigenous women that number one the story doesn't

1161
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:10,960
Speaker 2: care about, and number two who don't have the recipe

1162
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 2: for all of these like English biscuits.

1163
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 1: They have, Yeah, they they I think critically, like they

1164
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 1: have the nostalgia recipes exactly for these settlers.

1165
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is what lets them earn any amount

1166
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 2: of money, which presumably is lost forever in the tree.

1167
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 3: It also speaks of this interesting phenomenon in which cooking

1168
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 3: and baking is so seen as like feminized labor until

1169
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 3: you're selling it, in which case becomes very masculine society.

1170
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 3: And it's this very interesting tension that like there is

1171
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 3: a there are all those beautiful little domestic scenes at

1172
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 3: Kinglu's house, like when he makes the first biscuit, King

1173
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 3: Lou is again outside doing something manly.

1174
01:04:56,400 --> 01:05:00,040
Speaker 2: But he's beating a rug, like beating the rug.

1175
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 3: And he's like gently leaves one of the biscuits on

1176
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 3: the like the sale for him. Yeah, I love Conky

1177
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 3: and it is this very like it feels very gender.

1178
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 3: It feels very but then the second they're selling it,

1179
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 3: it's like a cool boy thing to do because you're

1180
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 3: making money.

1181
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's still King Lou who's generally doing the

1182
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: selling like he's though, you know, he's kind of calling

1183
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: the shots. I liked it. It's like a very subtle moment.

1184
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 1: I don't even know if it was intended like this,

1185
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 1: but there is like a moment where it seems like

1186
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:32,840
Speaker 1: Cookie allows like feels comfortable enough around King Lou to

1187
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 1: show that he really cares about cooking too, where where

1188
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 1: we see him with the like settlers who are very

1189
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 1: dismissive and abusive towards him at the beginning, like he

1190
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 1: can't say, like I really care about how things take,

1191
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: you know, like that this is like a passion of his.

1192
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 1: But it's like when we see him actually comfortable around someone,

1193
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:57,080
Speaker 1: and King Lou is like he's like, we got to

1194
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 1: start a business. We got it because that's because he's

1195
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 1: an ideas guy, right, Like he is a proto capitalist.

1196
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 3: Entrepreneur and job creator.

1197
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 1: And then you have like you have Cookie being like,

1198
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, could be sweeter, would be cool if

1199
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 1: we had honey, would be cool if we had this stuff.

1200
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:14,920
Speaker 1: And it's just like, I just you know, even though

1201
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 1: they are endeavoring on what we already know is a

1202
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 1: losing battle, they're both comfortable enough to be passionate around

1203
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 1: each other, which you know it might not save your life,

1204
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: but it certainly feels better. Yeah, I just there their

1205
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 1: dynamic is so gentle and complimentary, and yeah, you can

1206
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 1: like feel a real friendship. Going back to UH, there's

1207
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: an interview that Alyssa Wilkinson did with Kelly Rhikert around

1208
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: the time this book came out that I know that

1209
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: we it reminds me a little bit, just in the dynamics,

1210
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:53,560
Speaker 1: not the movie itself, in the conversation we had around

1211
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 1: the Vivich in UH many many months ago. Another movie

1212
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 1: that generally I mean, and I think more so than

1213
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 1: this movie focuses on white settlers and very much keeps

1214
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 1: Indigenous people on the margins of the story. This movie

1215
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 1: I think does more. Not that that's saying a ton,

1216
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: but I wanted to talk about because we got I

1217
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:18,120
Speaker 1: think something this is shorthand on this podcast at this time,

1218
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 1: Robert Eggers being asked like, how did your research indigenous

1219
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: culture for this movie? And he said, I went to

1220
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 1: the library once and I and it was iconic that

1221
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 1: he admitted that, I guess. But anyways, go back to

1222
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 1: our episode about that. But Kelly Redcard was also asked

1223
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 1: how she did research specifically for the indigenous language used

1224
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:49,440
Speaker 1: in the film. So this movie was my page on

1225
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 1: Power of the Dog up. So this movie was It's

1226
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:59,320
Speaker 1: all happening again. So this movie was co written with

1227
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 1: Kelley red and frequent collaborator Jonathan Raymond, who is a

1228
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 1: white guy from Oregon who has collaborated with her many times.

1229
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: And it was also based on a story that Jonathan

1230
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: Raymond wrote. Jonathan Raymond, to his credit, I guess, has

1231
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 1: written extensively about Oregon and historically also does not shy

1232
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:23,439
Speaker 1: away from indigenous history within Oregon. But as we've talked about,

1233
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 1: the movie doesn't explicitly address indigenous characters very much. So

1234
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 1: I was curious what their research process was, and I

1235
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 1: have an answer. Kelly Record is asked, there are people

1236
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:37,160
Speaker 1: from First Nations throughout this film, and the way the

1237
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:40,320
Speaker 1: settlers treat them, which often comes across as ridiculous, is

1238
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 1: a big part of the story. How did you go

1239
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:46,680
Speaker 1: about researching language and culture? Kelly replies, there's a confederation

1240
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:50,679
Speaker 1: of tribes down near Eugene, Oregon. It's called Grand Rendez.

1241
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 1: They had just opened this very beautiful museum that was

1242
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 1: in an old high school. Jonathan Raymond went down there

1243
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: to do research. They were a little wary about getting

1244
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 1: involved with us, as they should be. Eventually, out of

1245
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 1: our persistence and Jonathan's persistence, they opened up the library

1246
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 1: to us and then ended up hooking us up with

1247
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 1: a woman who made the cedar capes and hats worn

1248
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 1: in the movie, which was cool because then we then

1249
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:15,840
Speaker 1: donated them back to the museum. Then they helped us

1250
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 1: find someone who spoke the language. It's a jargon, a

1251
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 1: mix of languages. The Chinook Wuaha Oriyan who plays Klu

1252
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 1: had to learn that, as did James Jones, the Native

1253
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 1: American actor who takes them up the river. That was

1254
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 1: pretty tricky and I had to edit that language, which

1255
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 1: is not really phonetic. Hopefully we didn't slaughter it too much.

1256
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:39,679
Speaker 1: Sorry the long que She's then asked, is that language

1257
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:43,440
Speaker 1: still spoken commonly or is it being preserved? She responds,

1258
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:45,640
Speaker 1: there's not that many people left that still speak it,

1259
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 1: but those who do are trying to preserve it. We

1260
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 1: had some help with learning it. It's a difficult language.

1261
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 1: Orian really picked it up. An interesting thing happened one night.

1262
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:57,639
Speaker 1: I realized that the whole sound crew, because they were

1263
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:01,440
Speaker 1: listening to that language constantly, had come to understand the language.

1264
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 1: I think it's a bit like Spanguish, where it's a

1265
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 1: combination of languages. But the Grand Ronde ended up being

1266
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:09,120
Speaker 1: incredibly generous to us, and that's also their canoe in

1267
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:13,839
Speaker 1: the film. So on one hand, we have two white

1268
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 1: writers composing this story that you know, indigenous characters are

1269
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:24,040
Speaker 1: important too, but also generally remain on the sidelines of

1270
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:28,200
Speaker 1: On the other hand, I do really appreciate when white

1271
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 1: filmmakers bother to do their research and actually build connections

1272
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:38,240
Speaker 1: and trust within indigenous communities, because so often you get

1273
01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 1: the eggers treatment of going to the public library one time,

1274
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:45,679
Speaker 1: and you know, I think it's still very very open

1275
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 1: to criticism, but I was at least heartened to learn

1276
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 1: that Kelly Riikert and her collaborator did genuinely seem to

1277
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 1: do their due diligence, and it also kind of like

1278
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 1: doubles down on Well, then, why didn't they do more?

1279
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:05,639
Speaker 1: Why didn't they build a character to express this culture

1280
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:06,040
Speaker 1: through more?

1281
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 2: I don't know, especially because this was an adaptation, like

1282
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:15,599
Speaker 2: you said, novel by Jonathan Raymond entitled The Half Life,

1283
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:18,839
Speaker 2: which has a story that has a much larger scope

1284
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 2: than what we see in the movie, where there's like

1285
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 2: two timelines oh interest, the story is set in two

1286
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:30,559
Speaker 2: different continents, Like it's basically the movie kind of zooms

1287
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:35,240
Speaker 2: in and focuses on just a small span of time

1288
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 2: that happens in the story. And I'm not even sure

1289
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 2: the cow is in the book the titular how did?

1290
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 2: That's what I understood when I was reading about this,

1291
01:11:50,160 --> 01:11:53,040
Speaker 2: But I might I might have misunderstood. I'm not totally sure,

1292
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 2: But either way, I do know that the scope of

1293
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:01,519
Speaker 2: the story in the movie is much smaller than the novel.

1294
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 2: So the point is many changes were made from the

1295
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 2: original source material, so a change that could have also

1296
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 2: been made is more focused on the indigenous characters. But

1297
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 2: I was going to point out that there's an even

1298
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:22,160
Speaker 2: worse version of this like approach to research that we

1299
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:25,679
Speaker 2: talked about recently, which is the Stephanie Meyer or Myers

1300
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 2: whatever approach when we recovered Twilight, because she did basically

1301
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:32,640
Speaker 2: no research.

1302
01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:37,680
Speaker 1: No, she was strictly on Mormon vibes, drove.

1303
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:39,480
Speaker 3: By the library and looked at Yeah.

1304
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:44,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, it is. It is encouraging that these filmmakers

1305
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 2: did more research than you might expect.

1306
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 1: But again, I just especially that they had like done

1307
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:52,600
Speaker 1: more with it too, you know.

1308
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't. Again, I don't think I disagree with

1309
01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:58,200
Speaker 3: that read of it, but to me, it feels like

1310
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 3: they did I think an interesting job of leaving this

1311
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 3: big wide gulf between what you know about it and

1312
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:09,679
Speaker 3: how much detail is present, which I think is maybe

1313
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 3: on purpose, And you could not like that as a

1314
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:17,800
Speaker 3: storytelling maneuver. And and that's a that's a very fair

1315
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 3: criticism in terms of like what stories we are allowed

1316
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:22,439
Speaker 3: to tell and what we see and stuff like that.

1317
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:26,080
Speaker 3: So wanting I think wanting more of it is reasonable

1318
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 3: and uh fair, But I think it is an intentional

1319
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 3: thing to lead this sort of like lacuna of what's

1320
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:36,479
Speaker 3: in the story and yeah, because you know, in terms

1321
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 3: of like the scale or the yeah, like on the

1322
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:43,920
Speaker 3: scale of research from instead of like going to library once,

1323
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:47,360
Speaker 3: there's going to museum twice, and that's what they do.

1324
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:50,759
Speaker 1: It's true. It's true. It's true because.

1325
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:54,240
Speaker 3: The Brendan caps back, so two times, right?

1326
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:59,200
Speaker 2: Uh? Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss

1327
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:00,800
Speaker 2: about the movie?

1328
01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 1: That's all I had.

1329
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 3: No, we talked about oto.

1330
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 1: We did. We did.

1331
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 3: It's really important to me.

1332
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 1: It's true.

1333
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:12,160
Speaker 2: So does the movie pass the Bechdel test?

1334
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:15,680
Speaker 1: I don't think so, no, because even if because I

1335
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:18,880
Speaker 1: always I mean, this is a whole other sort of

1336
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 1: large conversation about the use of subtitles where you know,

1337
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:27,639
Speaker 1: I don't speak this variant on Chinookuawa. I think most

1338
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 1: people don't because it is a language that is being

1339
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 1: actively preserved. The only time we really see women talk

1340
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 1: to each other is in this exchange. We referenced a

1341
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:39,240
Speaker 1: few different times of Lily Gladstone's character, who doesn't have

1342
01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 1: a name other than wife, talking to another Indigenous woman

1343
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:45,600
Speaker 1: who she knows, but we don't know what the relationship is.

1344
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 1: Much less than name, and we also don't know what

1345
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:52,440
Speaker 1: they're talking about, so no is my I vote.

1346
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 2: No, right, And on top of that, even if we

1347
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:59,519
Speaker 2: did know what they were saying, they're just like hey,

1348
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 2: but they don't say that much to each other, and

1349
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 2: it's mostly just it seems like Lily Gladsmon's character is

1350
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:10,719
Speaker 2: gesturing towards like the bead work on the other woman's clothing,

1351
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:14,479
Speaker 2: maybe complementing it, We're not sure, but either way, I

1352
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:18,200
Speaker 2: feel like you could remove this interaction from the movie

1353
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:20,760
Speaker 2: and the narrative would not change at all. So it's

1354
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:24,040
Speaker 2: not a narratively significant exchange.

1355
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:26,599
Speaker 1: But I will say, for if nothing else, it is

1356
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:30,759
Speaker 1: memorable because sure, going back to your point earlier, Maddie,

1357
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 1: that it does feel worth mentioning that, even though it

1358
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 1: doesn't really it fit into like how we generally analyze

1359
01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:41,240
Speaker 1: movies on this show, that it does feel like Kelly

1360
01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:46,000
Speaker 1: Recer does choose moments to linker on characters who we

1361
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:48,840
Speaker 1: often see on the fringes of movies. And again, it's

1362
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:53,040
Speaker 1: not perfect or even necessarily good representation, but it is

1363
01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:57,479
Speaker 1: it is I think, noticeably different than how we see

1364
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 1: indigenous characters in colonial narrative treated where it's like their

1365
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:06,320
Speaker 1: humanity isn't disregarded in the same way even through I

1366
01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:09,920
Speaker 1: think like simple interactions like two friends or relatives we

1367
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 1: don't know, and that's an issue, but like two people

1368
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:15,439
Speaker 1: having a moment of human connection in a way that

1369
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:21,560
Speaker 1: I think most often we see indigenous characters treated as stereotypes,

1370
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:24,680
Speaker 1: as stock characters, as like not as humans.

1371
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:28,519
Speaker 3: So, yeah, I was gonna present like a fallacious, fun

1372
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:31,880
Speaker 3: little argument the cookie is so feminine coded that him

1373
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:34,720
Speaker 3: talking to the beautiful cow past the test. But then

1374
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:36,479
Speaker 3: I realize they mostly talk about her husband.

1375
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:38,520
Speaker 2: Oh that's true.

1376
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 3: Well, so never mind.

1377
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:44,919
Speaker 2: Well here's some some food for thought, some milk for thought.

1378
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:46,800
Speaker 3: Perhaps a fry cake for thought.

1379
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:51,360
Speaker 2: Does it pass the Bechdel test? When a woman finds

1380
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:53,040
Speaker 2: the skeletons of two.

1381
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 3: Dead men, is the dog a woman?

1382
01:16:57,040 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 2: The dog might be a female dog.

1383
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:02,519
Speaker 1: Does it count? Does it pass the Bechdel test? When

1384
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 1: I watched the movie at home and say first cow

1385
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:08,439
Speaker 1: when I see the cow, I think that's the closest

1386
01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:12,840
Speaker 1: I could get. Is women's anyone? If a marginalized gender

1387
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:16,560
Speaker 1: screaming first cow and then the cow saying lou, that's

1388
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 1: that's text. That's text. I agree, it's interesting. I mean,

1389
01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 1: in this we've we've encountered this before. A movie with

1390
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 1: a titular women character doesn't pass the Bechdel test and

1391
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:31,640
Speaker 1: you hate to see it, and you hate to see it.

1392
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:33,439
Speaker 1: It's the women all over again?

1393
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:36,880
Speaker 3: Does the women not? I guess it's you know what

1394
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:39,360
Speaker 3: it's all about men. It's the subtitle of the or

1395
01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 3: the tagline right now.

1396
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 1: It's true. Yeah, that was the tagline.

1397
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:44,640
Speaker 3: For the original from the thirsday.

1398
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:46,400
Speaker 1: And they weren't joke. I still really want to cover

1399
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:49,400
Speaker 1: that on the show. Maybe that'll be a birthday because

1400
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:52,080
Speaker 1: it's a it's a brain breaker, and I will also

1401
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:54,000
Speaker 1: say it's an enjoyable movie to watch.

1402
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:56,960
Speaker 3: That movie rips and it real quick. But I have

1403
01:17:56,960 --> 01:17:59,080
Speaker 3: a fun fact about it, which is that she makes

1404
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:01,599
Speaker 3: one joke about Adolf learning it as one of the women.

1405
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:03,559
Speaker 3: And I looked it up and it came out three

1406
01:18:03,600 --> 01:18:05,920
Speaker 3: days before Germany invaded Poland.

1407
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:10,719
Speaker 1: Oh my god, my god. And there's some and and

1408
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:14,320
Speaker 1: and talk about food for thought. But yeah, no, it's

1409
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:17,320
Speaker 1: it doesn't text. It doesn't pass the Bectyl test. But again,

1410
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:19,040
Speaker 1: the Vitel test is not the be all adult of

1411
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:21,599
Speaker 1: media metrics. It's just what we happen to name Marshall after.

1412
01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the media metric that that is

1413
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:26,040
Speaker 1: the be all and.

1414
01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 2: All the nipple scale, where we rate the movie zero

1415
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 2: to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional

1416
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:40,760
Speaker 2: feminist lens. And I just don't really know about this,

1417
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 2: because there are some interesting things in the movie is

1418
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 2: addressing and commenting on, such as early colonial American capitalism

1419
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:58,960
Speaker 2: and perceptions of gender and the kind of spectrum of

1420
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 2: mass sculinity. And I do appreciate that we are following

1421
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 2: characters who are not displaying the typical toxic masculinity of

1422
01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:13,479
Speaker 2: the time, which was beating the shit out of each

1423
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:14,960
Speaker 2: other and killing each other.

1424
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 1: What about making biscuits and pulling a scam?

1425
01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:23,280
Speaker 2: Make that's feminism, yeah, if you ask me. But the

1426
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:31,520
Speaker 2: movies disinterest in giving any interiority to the indigenous characters

1427
01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:37,320
Speaker 2: who are visibly present on screen but just not given

1428
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:44,400
Speaker 2: any of the focus that the settler characters are is disappointing.

1429
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:48,120
Speaker 2: I think I'll give it two and a half nipples.

1430
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:51,840
Speaker 2: I'm not sure why. I don't really know how to

1431
01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:56,360
Speaker 2: rate this movie, but I do know that one nipple

1432
01:19:56,479 --> 01:20:04,800
Speaker 2: goes to one utter perhaps say, how yeah goes to

1433
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 2: ev the Cow. Okay, one nipple I'll give to Kelly Reikhart.

1434
01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 2: I do want to explore more of her filmography.

1435
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:16,080
Speaker 1: We should cover certain women. I feel like this Certain

1436
01:20:16,080 --> 01:20:21,080
Speaker 1: Women was unlike First Cow, arguably certain Women was made

1437
01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:21,639
Speaker 1: for our show.

1438
01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:25,439
Speaker 2: Interesting. Maybe we'll do a month on the Matreon that's

1439
01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:27,960
Speaker 2: the women and search women.

1440
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 1: Let's yeah, it's like the women, let's get versus what

1441
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:32,599
Speaker 1: about certain.

1442
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:38,200
Speaker 2: Maybe twentieth century women? I don't know anyway, Yeah, yeah,

1443
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:41,800
Speaker 2: uh so Kelly gets one of my nipples and then

1444
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:46,280
Speaker 2: my half nipple goes to the four to three aspect ratio,

1445
01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:50,840
Speaker 2: which was kind of shocking to me.

1446
01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:55,720
Speaker 1: Anyway, I hate Yeah, I'm having trouble with this. I

1447
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:59,000
Speaker 1: guess I'll also go two and a half. This movie

1448
01:20:59,160 --> 01:21:02,320
Speaker 1: is is. It's a tricky one because I think that

1449
01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:05,960
Speaker 1: my main criticism, even though like I don't know, the

1450
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:08,000
Speaker 1: more we do the show, and I guess also just

1451
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 1: kind of the older I get, the more I appreciate

1452
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:14,679
Speaker 1: movies like this, movies that have restraint, movies that are

1453
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:19,600
Speaker 1: not stating the themes right, like movies that force I

1454
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:25,120
Speaker 1: think rightfully. So the viewer to challenge themselves or not

1455
01:21:25,479 --> 01:21:29,120
Speaker 1: as the case maybe, But I still think that there's

1456
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 1: a thing of like too much restraint, And I really

1457
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:36,559
Speaker 1: wish that there had been an Indigenous character that we

1458
01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:39,160
Speaker 1: know something about, Like I don't know. I just don't

1459
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:41,200
Speaker 1: think that's like too much to ask. I feel I

1460
01:21:41,200 --> 01:21:44,040
Speaker 1: feel like it was overly restraint to do all that

1461
01:21:44,080 --> 01:21:47,320
Speaker 1: research too. And I also think it is a generally

1462
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:50,519
Speaker 1: good thing for white filmmakers to do, to both do

1463
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:55,160
Speaker 1: their homework and contribute in whatever small way in preserving

1464
01:21:55,520 --> 01:21:59,000
Speaker 1: language in mainstream cinema, right, Like, I think that that

1465
01:21:59,160 --> 01:22:02,880
Speaker 1: is a powerful thing. Now we have Chiniguala in a

1466
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:09,080
Speaker 1: current movie that got COVID, so not hugely wide distribution,

1467
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:11,640
Speaker 1: but a movie that is widely available. I think that

1468
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 1: that is a generally good thing. But it felt like

1469
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:17,559
Speaker 1: a missed opportunity to me that like, if it was

1470
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:22,200
Speaker 1: done out of restraint, felt overly so to not give

1471
01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:24,880
Speaker 1: us more insight, because we see a lot of the

1472
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:28,599
Speaker 1: factors that are affecting Indigenous people without getting to know

1473
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 1: a single person, And that felt like a missed opportunity

1474
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 1: for me. But like we've talked about, I think that

1475
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:39,360
Speaker 1: the friendship in all of the and also just the

1476
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:44,800
Speaker 1: general ideas that King Lou and Cookie represent of these

1477
01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:50,640
Speaker 1: two outsider immigrants trying to make their way in a

1478
01:22:51,040 --> 01:22:56,120
Speaker 1: world where it is colonial capitalism that is hostile to them.

1479
01:22:56,400 --> 01:22:59,160
Speaker 1: Which I appreciate that there's like no ifans or butts

1480
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:02,640
Speaker 1: of like what ends up getting them. It is. It

1481
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 1: is that and all the ideas that come with that,

1482
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:07,280
Speaker 1: including Maddie, like you were getting into this idea of

1483
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:10,280
Speaker 1: hyper masculinity, and like the person who killed them is

1484
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 1: like that's likely a huge factor in why they did it. Also,

1485
01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:18,439
Speaker 1: the biscuits looked good. I'm not a huge like food

1486
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:22,040
Speaker 1: cinema person like I I bravely when I watch a

1487
01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:27,639
Speaker 1: Studio Gibili movie, I'm like, cut to the chase. It's like,

1488
01:23:27,920 --> 01:23:30,880
Speaker 1: I don't I can't eat this. I can't eat this.

1489
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:36,040
Speaker 1: It's two d I can't which But but I I

1490
01:23:36,240 --> 01:23:39,680
Speaker 1: was hungry watching this movie, and that's not nothing. So

1491
01:23:39,760 --> 01:23:41,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to give this two and a half nipples,

1492
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:44,120
Speaker 1: and I'm going to give them all to to my

1493
01:23:44,160 --> 01:23:47,320
Speaker 1: pal Ev because she really needs as many, you know,

1494
01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:51,200
Speaker 1: utters as she can. She needs six. We haven't gotten

1495
01:23:51,200 --> 01:23:54,479
Speaker 1: her there. Oh yeah, it's six, right? I actually don't

1496
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:55,880
Speaker 1: think I think I think it's four.

1497
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:57,760
Speaker 3: On Jersey Cows, I think it's four.

1498
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:02,000
Speaker 2: Speaking as the nipples slash utter expert, I was.

1499
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:03,960
Speaker 3: Just googling Jersey Cow and I was looking at them,

1500
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:04,599
Speaker 3: and I think it's four.

1501
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:05,080
Speaker 2: Four.

1502
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:07,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, then she's actually she's good.

1503
01:24:07,120 --> 01:24:10,960
Speaker 3: I also was thinking about, Maddie, how about you? Oh,

1504
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:13,720
Speaker 3: how many nipples do I give? I think, you know,

1505
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:18,080
Speaker 3: I think I think the critique is very valid. But

1506
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,519
Speaker 3: on the balance, I love this movie so much and

1507
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:24,000
Speaker 3: I kind of think it's a masterpiece. I'll give it.

1508
01:24:24,040 --> 01:24:27,320
Speaker 3: I'll give it a solid four for for one of

1509
01:24:27,360 --> 01:24:28,920
Speaker 3: each of EV's beautiful nipples.

1510
01:24:29,280 --> 01:24:30,920
Speaker 1: Nice, lovely.

1511
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:34,240
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us for this discussion.

1512
01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:35,360
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

1513
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:37,800
Speaker 2: Where can people find you online?

1514
01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:41,439
Speaker 1: Where can we get your book? Are you touringing? Oh?

1515
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:44,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this I believe this is coming out after

1516
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:48,639
Speaker 3: my book tour is over. But but you can find

1517
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:52,360
Speaker 3: me easily. Maddie. Lobchansky dot com has all the information

1518
01:24:52,479 --> 01:24:54,880
Speaker 3: for all of my books and where I will be.

1519
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:58,040
Speaker 3: And you can get the book Simplicity, which should be

1520
01:24:58,040 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 3: out now. I'm really proud of it. You buy it

1521
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:04,360
Speaker 3: and read it. It's really good I think, and you

1522
01:25:04,400 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 3: can listen. I have a podcast called No Gods, No

1523
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:09,599
Speaker 3: Mayors where I talk about mayors with my two friends.

1524
01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:13,200
Speaker 3: You can listen to that and No godsnowmares dot com.

1525
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:15,880
Speaker 1: You can find us where we are going to be

1526
01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:19,400
Speaker 1: on tour at the end of the summer across the Midwest.

1527
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:24,240
Speaker 1: We're talking in Chicago, Madison, Wisconsin, Minneapolis, Indianapolis. You can

1528
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:27,160
Speaker 1: check out all those dates and grab tickets in our

1529
01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:33,320
Speaker 1: link tree, and you can join our Matreon Patreon Experience

1530
01:25:33,320 --> 01:25:36,000
Speaker 1: where for five dollars a month you get two bonus

1531
01:25:36,040 --> 01:25:39,759
Speaker 1: episodes on a theme of either hours or you're choosing,

1532
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:41,160
Speaker 1: depending on how we're feeling.

1533
01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:44,400
Speaker 2: That month, including an episode on Ratatui.

1534
01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:48,160
Speaker 1: Yes we did a rat themed month.

1535
01:25:48,400 --> 01:25:51,600
Speaker 2: Really get Rodent, Tember, redn't.

1536
01:25:51,280 --> 01:25:56,240
Speaker 1: Timber, which I believe we observed in April, but don't

1537
01:25:56,280 --> 01:25:58,799
Speaker 1: worry about it. It was just urgent. It was really urgent.

1538
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:03,280
Speaker 1: So go over there for my birthday picks this month

1539
01:26:03,320 --> 01:26:04,040
Speaker 1: pretty thrilling.

1540
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:10,120
Speaker 2: And with that, shall we go milk the first cow

1541
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:12,440
Speaker 2: that we see.

1542
01:26:13,439 --> 01:26:15,840
Speaker 1: It's like getting lemons off a tree on the street.

1543
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:18,800
Speaker 1: You're like, might as well, why not dance there?

1544
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:21,000
Speaker 3: As long as there's not a little fencer rapped around

1545
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:22,479
Speaker 3: the cow. I think it's fine to do.

1546
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, all right, bye bye.

1547
01:26:29,720 --> 01:26:32,960
Speaker 2: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

1548
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:36,920
Speaker 2: Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1549
01:26:37,040 --> 01:26:40,200
Speaker 2: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike

1550
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:44,679
Speaker 2: Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Vosskrosenski. Our logo and merch

1551
01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:47,800
Speaker 2: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to

1552
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:52,280
Speaker 2: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

1553
01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:54,240
Speaker 2: link tree slash Bechdel Cast