WEBVTT - The Making of 'Making a Murderer' 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.200 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.320 My chance to talk with artists, policymakers and performers, to 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:17.720 hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:23.400 their careers, what relationships influenced their work. At this point, 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:26.480 it would be almost impossible not to have heard of 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.800 Making a Murderer, the ten part Netflix series that launched 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:36.040 last month, Stephen Avery Story, is a cultural phenomenon, with 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:40.199 viewers launching petitions calling for a retrial and even a 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:47.040 presidential pardon. It's a story with many detours and a 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:51.479 wide range of characters. Here's what we know. Stephen Avery 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:56.000 worked at his family's auto salvage yard in Manitoick County, Wisconsin. 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:59.520 He had a few prior convictions before his arrest for 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:04.040 sexual will assault in He served eighteen years for that 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:09.240 crime until DNA evidence proved his innocence and he was exonerated. 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.800 Just two years after his release, Avery and his nephew, 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:18.280 Brendan Dacy, were arrested and subsequently convicted for the murder 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.480 of a female photographer. The story is still unfolding. The 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:26.160 series has provoked many of the lead characters to speak 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:31.399 out Ken Kratz, the lead prosecuting attorney, recently accused the 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:35.759 filmmakers of making a murderer, of leaving out important information. 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:41.760 My guests today are those filmmakers Laura Richardi and Moira Dimas. 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:46.440 They've spent the past ten years documenting Stephen avery story, 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:48.920 which they first read about in the New York Times. 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:53.600 This is Laura Richardi. We actually met in graduate film 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.440 school at Columbia University. You know, we had no money, 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.880 and that's moradems. I mean, we had negative money. This 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.520 is we were borrowing money. So thening what what year 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.120 you saw every on the Times was the beginning the 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.000 day before Thanksgiving in two thousand and five. He had 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.400 been arrested and charged in the Teresa Halbach murder. You 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.640 know this the headlineman freed by DNA, now charged a 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.400 new crime. It just seemed like, you know, he was 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.040 this incredible window through which to look at our system. 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:25.160 You know, if we followed this man's story, we would 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:27.280 go from one extreme of the system to the other. 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.000 So as I was saying, you know, we had no money, 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.240 but what we what we could put into it was time, 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:37.200 which is actually an incredibly valuable asset. And after doing 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.840 a preliminary week of shooting in December, realized this was 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:44.040 something we wanted to pursue, and we sublet our apartment 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.200 in New York. We've got an apartment in mant Walk 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:49.799 and we lived there, you know, more on than off 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.440 for close to two years. So I think a lot 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.760 of the access we had was you know, because we 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.120 were there, because we weren't going anywhere. What was it 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:00.160 like to live there? And how did the principles on 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.799 either side treat you well? I would say there was 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:07.760 definitely a range of responses. Um, there were some people 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:11.440 who were wary of us. We were in an unknown 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.320 um two individuals from New York City who you know, 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:22.280 had descended upon Manitoa County, Wisconsin, and we were mysterious 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.680 in a way. But we were collaborating with the local media. 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.560 We were documenting the hall Buck cases. It was unfolding, 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:32.640 so we were also very public, trying to be very collaborative. 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:36.840 So we did whatever we could too to seem what 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.800 we actually were, which was non threatening. You know. We 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.720 were there simply to document events as they were unfolding. 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:44.920 You know, we were not there to judge. We were 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:49.440 there to listen and to witness law enforcement despised Stephen. 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:55.680 Every Stephen Avery was a shiny example of their inadequacies. There, 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:01.240 we reached out to um the two attorneys who represented 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:05.480 Stephen Avery in his federal civil rights lawsuit against Manitoa 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:09.800 County and two of its former law enforcement officers. And 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:11.960 these were two individuals who were sort of at the 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.840 opposite extreme of those who were wary. These individuals, Steve 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.680 Glenn and Walt Kelly. I think, in a sense we're 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:23.120 happy that we reached out to them because they were 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:28.400 concerned that the history would otherwise be lost. Because of course, 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.720 when we first met with them, Stevens civil lawsuit had 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:37.680 already settled, and so to the extent they wanted, which 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.200 he then had to give what one sixty two attorneys 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.599 and the and then if I watched, because I did 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:46.080 watch this very career and tried to think attention, and 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.840 then the two forty was left to bankroll the other 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.240 defense case. Correct, that's right. I mean the money never 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.599 touched Steven's hands. Just to clarify for listeners, the money 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:58.320 that he won in a civil suit for being falsely 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:02.600 imprisoned for eight years was used. His net proceeds were 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:07.120 used to fund his defense for the murder trial. You know, 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.400 Steve Glenn expressed to us the actual heartbreak he felt 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:14.680 when Stephen was arrested in this new crime. One of 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:18.200 the reasons for that was he knew what Stephen himself 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:22.880 and the Avery family had endured throughout Steven's wrongful imprisonment 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:27.200 for eighteen years. Steve Glenn had actually represented Stephen avery 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:30.360 Um in Steven's post conviction efforts in the mid nineties 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.919 and fully believed in Steven's innocence. So, you know, he 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:36.279 was a client, he had a long history with someone 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:39.279 he really cared about who now found himself back in 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:44.760 the system facing mandatory life. And so Steve Glenn, you know, 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.719 expressed to us that Stephen not only had a thirty 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:51.480 six million dollar lawsuit pending, but also expressed to us 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.839 why Stephen brought that lawsuit to begin with. He wasn't 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:59.000 digging for gold. He was trying to prevent what happened 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.040 to him and what happen been to Penny Burns in 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:04.080 the victim in the first case, from happening to anyone else. 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.440 For those who don't know the story that well, he 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:10.920 is falsely imprisoned for eighteen years from two thousand three 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.480 and he gets out, he's exonerated by DNA evidence when 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.480 he's in prison for ten years, the neighboring sheriff's department 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:22.200 or county police, you can articulate this, contact the matina 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.040 Walk people and say we think he got the wrong guy. 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:26.200 We think we know who the guy is. And the 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.720 people in matin O say we're fine, correct, Yeah, it's 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.320 ten years into stephen sentence. And what happens is that 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:38.040 an officer from Brown County calls the Mantwalk Sheriff's department 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.680 and says, we have somebody in custody who says that 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.120 he committed a sexual assault in Mattwak County and someone 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.480 else is serving time. So they actually infessed, had somebody 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.559 confessing to it? Was it the guy that was eventually 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.080 found guilty of the crime. It's hard to track down 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.359 exactly who made that call. Did they find someone that 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.800 was guilty of her of her rape? Did they convict 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.800 someone else? They did, yes, um, and it is likely 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.960 that person that was confessing because the timing was verified. 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:12.760 It was never verified, but in Gregory Allen that the 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:16.600 DNA UM that had been collected in the rape kit 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:22.320 in five was retested and it matched this person, Gregory Allen, 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.160 who was in the system because he had been convicted 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:30.240 of a subsequent rape in so the timing of of 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.280 that phone call does point to Gregory Allen making that confession. 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:38.640 So eventually Avery is released in two thousand three, correct, 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.680 and when he gets out, he starts suing people. And 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:46.920 the lawsuit that results in the four thousand dollar judgment 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.400 that was Avery suing who under what banner? There was 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.840 a civil rights lawsuit. It was a federal civil rights lawsuit. 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:55.680 But if I can, I would like to back up 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:59.960 because he did not immediately start suing people they were 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.840 is actually a call to action, I think a week 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.440 after his exoneration for the Attorney General to look into 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.840 what had gone wrong, And there was a d c 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.320 I investigators put on that case and many reports written 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:17.480 about what they were finding. But ultimately, after those reports 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:20.040 were submitted to lawyers at the Attorney General's office, the 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.560 official report that was written was that there was no 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:26.200 wrongdoing and that there was no ethical or criminal violations 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.160 in the case. So it was at that point, when 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.520 the system itself did not hold itself accountable, that Stephen 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.360 took the steps to file a lawsuit. So he files 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.320 that lawsuit, that lawsuit is adjudicated over what period of 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:43.760 time he gets the settlement When Stephen filed the lawsuit 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.440 in October of two thousand four and settled it I 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.880 believe in February of two thousand six, which was who 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:55.400 settled all of the defendants which were in that case. 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:59.520 We're Manitoa County, its former sheriff, tomka Surich, and its 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.640 former secutor Dennis Vogel. Both Casserk and Vogel were being 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:07.240 sued in their official capacity and in their individual capacity. 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:12.320 They pay anything individually. The settlement was paid by who? 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:15.599 Which entity paid the four thousand The terms of the 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.640 settlement were confidential. I mean it was reported in the 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.800 news the amount that Stephen ultimately settled for, but we 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.480 were not able to verify that. Then he has another lawsuit. 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:31.000 The thirty six million dollar lawsuit is by him individually 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:34.600 against who who does he sue them? Well to clarify 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.880 that there's only one lawsuit. So when he sues in 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:42.040 October of um two thousand and four, that is for 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.560 thirty six million dollars against Mantua County, the former sheriff 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.800 and the former district attorney. And it's important to recognize 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:53.400 the timing of the settlement because Stephen does not settle 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.680 the lawsuit until he has been charged with the murderer 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.840 of Teresa Halbuck, until he is desperate for funds, and 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.000 you know, he says himself, like, what good is money 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:05.640 going to do me? You know, if I can't prove 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.280 my innocence, you know, I have to give up. What 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.120 was his goal of holding somebody accountable for what had 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:15.360 happened to him to try to defend himself. So it 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.439 was it was the single lawsuit. There was no settlement 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.320 of this lawsuit, and some other lawsuit was hanging over 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.920 the heads of Colburn and Link and those people. Correct, 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.360 it was one loss. It was one lawsuit. Um. And 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.360 you mentioned Colburn and Length, they had they had been 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:35.520 deposed in the lawsuit, and the content of those depositions 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:40.720 was about this phone call about Gregory Allen confessing or 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:45.520 somebody purportedly Gregor Allen confessing to this assault for which 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.600 Stephen was serving time. And what was done with that 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.880 phone call and the fact that it was buried and 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:52.880 that it was there were no reports written and there 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:56.000 were no repercussions for them for them, they were not. 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:58.920 At the time, there was talk among the civil attorneys 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.800 that perhaps those two individuals should be added as defendants 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.920 in the lawsuit, but that did not have an opportunity 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.080 to happen because he had to crash the whole thing 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:09.160 to get the money to pay for the That's right, 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.920 I think an interesting detail that came out during Stephen's 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:17.240 trial when Dean Strang was cross examining then sergeant patrol 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.600 Sergeant Andrew Colburn, he asked him, at the time you 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:24.040 were deposed in the lawsuit, did you have any concern 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:26.920 that you yourself might be added as a defendant in 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:31.480 the lawsuit? And Colburn answered affirmatively, He said, yes, it 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:35.040 had crossed my mind. At the center of this is Avery, 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.199 who I'm assuming you spent countless hours with him or 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:42.960 around him correct, um, hours on the phone mostly UM. 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.640 We were able to visit him in the county jail times. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:53.839 I would guess maybe eight, maybe ten. How did he 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.960 strike you? Well, he's about two inches shorter than I am, 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.480 and I'm what am I five ft five, So I 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.640 was a little surprised by his stature and um, but 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.880 he had a big smile, He was very affable, he 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:13.000 was very open, he was very gracious, and um, you know, 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.040 it just it appeared to us that this was somebody 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:20.040 with a very simple value system, but a value system. Nonetheless, 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.640 the thing about this that that I think about in 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.439 terms of the two of you as filmmakers, is you 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.520 spend countless hours immersed in this, and did you develop 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.440 an ability to tell who's telling the truth and who's lying? 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.600 Did you become a bit more expert at that from 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:41.400 doing this? I mean, I think we certainly developed the 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.720 ability to identify, you know, should I be inclined to 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:48.200 trust this person and what they're saying. And I think 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.480 that was about, you know, being there and and hearing 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:55.160 from so many people and going into the documents, you know, 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.960 because we were one of the things that series is about, 0:12:58.000 --> 0:12:59.920 and one of the things we were fascinated with was 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.160 there was what was going on in public and then 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:04.920 there was what was going on behind the scene. Give 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:09.880 us a distinction that struck you well, you know, once 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.520 Brendan got sucked into this case, and so you know, 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.560 Stephen's sister is the mother of his nephew, and it 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.679 becomes his family drama and in the public, there's a 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.800 lot of talk of Barbyonda is, you know, trying to 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.840 protect Steven avery and the family is forcing Brendan to recant. 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:30.839 You know. Then you go to their living room and 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.640 they're fighting over this, and she actually doesn't necessarily even 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:38.680 believe in Stephen or her son. She she thinks every 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.040 might have killed the woman. Yeah, there are moments like that. 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:46.040 She is too, she's grappling it with it herself. And 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.120 you know, that's just all simplified and missed on the 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.760 public level. And and and again. To interject this for 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.280 people who haven't seen the piece, the man who was 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.959 released from prison after eighteen years on the rape charge 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:02.160 is then accused of murder. And then it goes to 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:06.920 another level again when the guy's nephew is roped into 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.760 the whole thing to confess against him because they don't 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.840 have any really reliable physical evidence, so they need an 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.120 eye witness. What else happens to her in her head 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:26.440 extremely extremely important to tell us us for us to 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:35.320 believe you, come on, Brendon, what else? I don't even 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:38.720 know the worst to describe it, That's all I can't remember. 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.080 All right, I'm just gonna come out and ask him 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.680 who shot her in the head? He why didn't you 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:54.160 tell us that it? Now you remember it when you 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.640 were around that family, Because they do come across. There's 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:01.120 a little whiff of some kind of clear shade appellatesha 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:05.680 to these people, describe them. These people were not Bible 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:11.360 thumping God fearing people. No, although it is interesting, um, 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.640 you know in the episode UM eight, I guess it 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.360 is Dolores, Stephen's mother says, you know, I know God 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.480 is on my side. You know, they might not be 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.080 Bible thumping and you know performing that they're going to church, 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.520 but but they have faith. They have a belief system. 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.280 And I think in terms of how the community thinks 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.200 about them or respond to them, I think the dividing 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.200 line is really between people that know them and that 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:38.200 people that don't know them. They have supporters, people that 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:42.840 have interacted with them, customers, and how they're treated everybody there. 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.400 The law enforcement community, particularly the one that Colburn and 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.320 Lank work with that law and that's the County correct 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.520 the County Sheriff's Department that they have their opinion of 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.760 the the Avery family. But the Averys had their supporters 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.680 and they were members of a community. Correct, not everybody 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.920 hated them. I thought they were trash, that's right. I 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.880 Mean one of the things we came to learn is that, um, 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.120 you know, in a way, the Averies were considered the 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:13.160 other in that particular community. They were not dairy farmers. Um, 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:17.000 although many of them worked in factories. It's also there's 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:21.520 there's industry in Manittoau County as well, but um, you know, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:26.520 their profession, their livelihood was different and they were essentially 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.800 members of an underclass. So they were identified as the other. 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:32.600 And as you mentioned earlier, Alec, um, you know, they 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.440 weren't churchgoing people, so in a way, they you know, 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.840 they didn't fit into the community in that sense. But 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.560 what was interesting to us was that, um, you know, 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.640 the Averies were content. They kept to themselves and they 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.320 were happy with that. You know, they did tend to 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:50.920 get into some trouble when they did venture out into 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:53.840 the community. I mean you mentioned that Stephen had some priors, 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:58.680 and he certainly did so. Um. That was interesting to 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.600 us though to to try to it get a sense 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.480 of how self aware they were or how they considered 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.040 themselves in the community, and and did they were they 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.000 conscious of being thought of as the other and it's 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:14.280 it seemed to us that they weren't really conscious of that. Um, 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.639 you know, you were accused of soft selling some of 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.840 those priors and do you agree was there If you'd 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:21.280 had it to do over again, would you have been 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:27.320 more explicit about what he did? Explain about that now? 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:33.240 I mean we you know, our process was about using 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.560 primary source materials. To the extent they were available to us. 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.439 We would review them, and we wanted support for whatever 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.199 was included in the documentary. We fact checked, We had 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.800 multiple sources for things, right. I mean, it's been reported 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.679 in the national news in the last few days. The 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:54.400 documentary says this, but the truth is this. I'm assuming 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.159 that when this thing rolled out, I'm sure Netflix has 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:03.120 a legal department like no other is rich. Retflix is rich, 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:06.240 and they've got a lot of money to fact check 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:07.680 and so forth. I'm sure they put you through the 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:09.439 ringer about that for a period of time. Did you 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:14.520 have copious sessions with them about that? Yeah? I mean certainly, 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.600 all the legal checking, all of the clearing of title 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.680 and checking all of our releases, everything was a thorough process. 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:23.879 When you're done with that process and the program has 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.960 rolled out, on Netflix. Certainly you anticipated you would have 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.800 some blowback from the principles involved, correct, Did you prepare 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.800 yourself for that? Yeah, I mean it's no surprise to 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:36.800 us what Crats is coming out and saying. I mean, 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:40.640 I can't even say I'm disappointed. I mean, it's so predictable. 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:45.399 What's disappointing is that, you know, the reporters on the 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.719 national news are not asking him what is your source, 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.520 They're not looking at the record and challenging him on 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:55.000 his statements. They're sort of doing exactly what we document 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:59.400 happened during the hall Buck case. He makes a statement, 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:03.240 the media puts it out there as truth, and you know, 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:10.200 off we go. The repercussions from the series seemed to 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:15.520 change daily. Last week, Avery's former fiance Jodi Stakowski, who 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.200 appears sympathetic to him in making a murderer, gave an 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:23.520 interview stating that she believed he murdered Hallbach. She also 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:27.160 said she asked not to appear in the series. Moira 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.560 and Laura have responded by saying, quote, we and our 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.959 legal team are very comfortable that we had the appropriate 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:38.160 consent from all of the interview subjects, including Jody unquote 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.239 Explorer the Here's the Thing Archives, where I talk with 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:46.800 Gay Tales, the father of long form journalism. I never 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.159 wrote about a person, and I've written about hundreds and 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:52.479 hundreds of people that I couldn't go to see again. 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.639 I never had someone that wouldn't see me. In fact, 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.320 my attitude was the story is never over. I could 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:03.399 write about someone that's a performing athlete or performing an actor, 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:06.560 and then ten years later and go back and see 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:09.159 them again. I wrote about Peter Tool my favorite person 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:14.320 in not long after who did Lawrence Arabia. I kept 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:16.919 in touch with him for the next forty years. I 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:19.480 believe that people, as long as they're alive, have more 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:21.720 stories to tell. Just because you published an article in 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.560 the New York Times and the New Yorker magazine doesn't 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.480 mean that the story is over. Take a listen that 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:41.239 Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec Baldwin and 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:45.080 you're listening to Here's the Thing. The ten part Netflix 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.200 series Making a Murderer has made more than a few 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:53.280 people household names, including Avery's defense attorney's Dean Strang and 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:58.080 Jerry Beauty and Teresa Hallbox brother Mike. I want to 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.359 talk about a person who to me is one of 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.720 the more disturbing figures in the show, and that is 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.720 Haubuck's brother hopefully, you know, move on, hopefully with Teresa 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.800 still in our life. And this guy was as velvety 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.439 and as seamless and did not seem to be mourning 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:19.760 his sister at all. What was your opinion of the brother. Well, 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:25.560 there's an interesting detail. Um, when Dean and Jerry first 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:29.120 came to represent Stephen Avery, one of their early motions 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:31.920 they brought they were going to seek a gag order 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:37.040 essentially against the state because, um, you might recall back 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:40.320 in November when law enforcement took over the Avery property 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.440 for eight days of searches, they were actually daily press conferences, 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:47.480 televised press conferences that were also you know, on radio 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.119 and in print, and um, you know, as soon as 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.800 these private attorneys came to represent Steven, they wanted to 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:56.679 put a stop to that. And what happened was the 0:21:56.720 --> 0:22:00.000 two sides ultimately entered into a stipulation and said, Okay, 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.159 neither side, we'll talk to the press, we won't do 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:05.320 any more pre child publicity. But I think what's interesting 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:08.720 to note is that Mike hall Buck, who was essentially 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:13.879 the spokesperson for the hall Buck family. Um, it seems 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.680 ultimately like sort of was passed the torch by Ken 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:21.320 Cratts because my Callbuck continued to speak in the press. 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:26.880 You concerned that with each witness, this window of reasonable 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.680 doubt keeps getting wider and wider. No, I'm not concerned 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:32.960 at all. Um. I think it's a hand that's kind 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.840 of forced upon the prosecution team. That's, you know, kind 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.040 of my belief. So not concerned at all. He was 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:42.919 essentially channeling the state's narrative. I mean, he was saying explicitly, 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:46.040 what matters to our family is that Stephen Avery is 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:49.080 convicted of this crime. Did you interview them at all? 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:50.679 Did any of the hall Bucks agree to be interviewed 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:54.560 by you? Um? They did not. I mean, like most 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:57.320 of our subjects. Um, we wrote a letter to them 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:02.560 introducing ourselves, introducing the project and what our goals were. Um. 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:05.840 And that resulted in us eventually having coffee with Mike. 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:09.080 What what my recollection of what Mike told us was, 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:11.760 you know, because we had described, you know, we want 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:14.240 to look at the American criminal justice system. We think, 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:16.160 you know, there's a lot to be learned from this 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.280 case and you know, the relationship of the past case 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:22.320 since you know Steven's wrongful conviction to what's happening now. 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.640 And he told us, you know, I don't think there's 0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:28.240 any problems with the justice system and there's nothing to 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:31.240 be learned from Stephen Avery. Here was a man who 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:36.159 believed that Stephen Avery had murdered his sister. And you know, 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:38.480 Steven Avery had served eighteen years in prison as an 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:43.520 innocent man, and so potentially his narrative was that, you know, 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:45.639 because he was in prison for eighteen years, he was 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:48.680 now a murderer. So how could he at the same 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:52.000 time say there's nothing wrong with the American criminal justice 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:57.000 system finding her cell phone records? How does something like 0:23:57.040 --> 0:24:01.159 that occur? Um, there are a couple of us that 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:05.200 tried figuring it out, but basically figured out her password 0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:08.040 and made up a user name that worked and got 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:11.520 into her her phone records. And I mean they pin 0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:16.160 it right off the deleted voice about that the boyfriend 0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:19.600 talked about or he was queried about when he was 0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:23.520 on the stand, explained to the audience what happened. The 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:27.000 woman hall Box is murdered. This is the murder that 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:30.960