1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policymakers and performers, to 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: their careers, what relationships influenced their work. At this point, 5 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: it would be almost impossible not to have heard of 6 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: Making a Murderer, the ten part Netflix series that launched 7 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: last month, Stephen Avery Story, is a cultural phenomenon, with 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: viewers launching petitions calling for a retrial and even a 9 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: presidential pardon. It's a story with many detours and a 10 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: wide range of characters. Here's what we know. Stephen Avery 11 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: worked at his family's auto salvage yard in Manitoick County, Wisconsin. 12 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: He had a few prior convictions before his arrest for 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: sexual will assault in He served eighteen years for that 14 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: crime until DNA evidence proved his innocence and he was exonerated. 15 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: Just two years after his release, Avery and his nephew, 16 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: Brendan Dacy, were arrested and subsequently convicted for the murder 17 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: of a female photographer. The story is still unfolding. The 18 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: series has provoked many of the lead characters to speak 19 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: out Ken Kratz, the lead prosecuting attorney, recently accused the 20 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: filmmakers of making a murderer, of leaving out important information. 21 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: My guests today are those filmmakers Laura Richardi and Moira Dimas. 22 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: They've spent the past ten years documenting Stephen avery story, 23 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: which they first read about in the New York Times. 24 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: This is Laura Richardi. We actually met in graduate film 25 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: school at Columbia University. You know, we had no money, 26 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: and that's moradems. I mean, we had negative money. This 27 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: is we were borrowing money. So thening what what year 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: you saw every on the Times was the beginning the 29 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: day before Thanksgiving in two thousand and five. He had 30 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: been arrested and charged in the Teresa Halbach murder. You 31 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: know this the headlineman freed by DNA, now charged a 32 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: new crime. It just seemed like, you know, he was 33 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: this incredible window through which to look at our system. 34 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: You know, if we followed this man's story, we would 35 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: go from one extreme of the system to the other. 36 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: So as I was saying, you know, we had no money, 37 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: but what we what we could put into it was time, 38 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: which is actually an incredibly valuable asset. And after doing 39 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: a preliminary week of shooting in December, realized this was 40 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: something we wanted to pursue, and we sublet our apartment 41 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: in New York. We've got an apartment in mant Walk 42 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: and we lived there, you know, more on than off 43 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: for close to two years. So I think a lot 44 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: of the access we had was you know, because we 45 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: were there, because we weren't going anywhere. What was it 46 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: like to live there? And how did the principles on 47 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: either side treat you well? I would say there was 48 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: definitely a range of responses. Um, there were some people 49 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: who were wary of us. We were in an unknown 50 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: um two individuals from New York City who you know, 51 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: had descended upon Manitoa County, Wisconsin, and we were mysterious 52 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: in a way. But we were collaborating with the local media. 53 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: We were documenting the hall Buck cases. It was unfolding, 54 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: so we were also very public, trying to be very collaborative. 55 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: So we did whatever we could too to seem what 56 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: we actually were, which was non threatening. You know. We 57 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: were there simply to document events as they were unfolding. 58 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: You know, we were not there to judge. We were 59 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: there to listen and to witness law enforcement despised Stephen. 60 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: Every Stephen Avery was a shiny example of their inadequacies. There, 61 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: we reached out to um the two attorneys who represented 62 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: Stephen Avery in his federal civil rights lawsuit against Manitoa 63 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: County and two of its former law enforcement officers. And 64 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: these were two individuals who were sort of at the 65 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: opposite extreme of those who were wary. These individuals, Steve 66 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: Glenn and Walt Kelly. I think, in a sense we're 67 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: happy that we reached out to them because they were 68 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: concerned that the history would otherwise be lost. Because of course, 69 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: when we first met with them, Stevens civil lawsuit had 70 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: already settled, and so to the extent they wanted, which 71 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: he then had to give what one sixty two attorneys 72 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: and the and then if I watched, because I did 73 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: watch this very career and tried to think attention, and 74 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: then the two forty was left to bankroll the other 75 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: defense case. Correct, that's right. I mean the money never 76 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: touched Steven's hands. Just to clarify for listeners, the money 77 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: that he won in a civil suit for being falsely 78 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: imprisoned for eight years was used. His net proceeds were 79 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: used to fund his defense for the murder trial. You know, 80 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: Steve Glenn expressed to us the actual heartbreak he felt 81 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: when Stephen was arrested in this new crime. One of 82 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: the reasons for that was he knew what Stephen himself 83 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: and the Avery family had endured throughout Steven's wrongful imprisonment 84 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: for eighteen years. Steve Glenn had actually represented Stephen avery 85 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: Um in Steven's post conviction efforts in the mid nineties 86 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: and fully believed in Steven's innocence. So, you know, he 87 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: was a client, he had a long history with someone 88 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: he really cared about who now found himself back in 89 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: the system facing mandatory life. And so Steve Glenn, you know, 90 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: expressed to us that Stephen not only had a thirty 91 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: six million dollar lawsuit pending, but also expressed to us 92 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: why Stephen brought that lawsuit to begin with. He wasn't 93 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: digging for gold. He was trying to prevent what happened 94 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: to him and what happen been to Penny Burns in 95 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: the victim in the first case, from happening to anyone else. 96 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: For those who don't know the story that well, he 97 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: is falsely imprisoned for eighteen years from two thousand three 98 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: and he gets out, he's exonerated by DNA evidence when 99 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: he's in prison for ten years, the neighboring sheriff's department 100 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: or county police, you can articulate this, contact the matina 101 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: Walk people and say we think he got the wrong guy. 102 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: We think we know who the guy is. And the 103 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: people in matin O say we're fine, correct, Yeah, it's 104 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: ten years into stephen sentence. And what happens is that 105 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: an officer from Brown County calls the Mantwalk Sheriff's department 106 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: and says, we have somebody in custody who says that 107 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: he committed a sexual assault in Mattwak County and someone 108 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: else is serving time. So they actually infessed, had somebody 109 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,559 Speaker 1: confessing to it? Was it the guy that was eventually 110 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: found guilty of the crime. It's hard to track down 111 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: exactly who made that call. Did they find someone that 112 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: was guilty of her of her rape? Did they convict 113 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: someone else? They did, yes, um, and it is likely 114 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: that person that was confessing because the timing was verified. 115 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: It was never verified, but in Gregory Allen that the 116 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: DNA UM that had been collected in the rape kit 117 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: in five was retested and it matched this person, Gregory Allen, 118 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: who was in the system because he had been convicted 119 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: of a subsequent rape in so the timing of of 120 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: that phone call does point to Gregory Allen making that confession. 121 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: So eventually Avery is released in two thousand three, correct, 122 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: and when he gets out, he starts suing people. And 123 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: the lawsuit that results in the four thousand dollar judgment 124 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: that was Avery suing who under what banner? There was 125 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: a civil rights lawsuit. It was a federal civil rights lawsuit. 126 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: But if I can, I would like to back up 127 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: because he did not immediately start suing people they were 128 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: is actually a call to action, I think a week 129 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: after his exoneration for the Attorney General to look into 130 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: what had gone wrong, And there was a d c 131 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: I investigators put on that case and many reports written 132 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: about what they were finding. But ultimately, after those reports 133 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: were submitted to lawyers at the Attorney General's office, the 134 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: official report that was written was that there was no 135 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: wrongdoing and that there was no ethical or criminal violations 136 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: in the case. So it was at that point, when 137 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: the system itself did not hold itself accountable, that Stephen 138 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: took the steps to file a lawsuit. So he files 139 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: that lawsuit, that lawsuit is adjudicated over what period of 140 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: time he gets the settlement When Stephen filed the lawsuit 141 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: in October of two thousand four and settled it I 142 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: believe in February of two thousand six, which was who 143 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: settled all of the defendants which were in that case. 144 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: We're Manitoa County, its former sheriff, tomka Surich, and its 145 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: former secutor Dennis Vogel. Both Casserk and Vogel were being 146 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: sued in their official capacity and in their individual capacity. 147 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: They pay anything individually. The settlement was paid by who? 148 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,599 Speaker 1: Which entity paid the four thousand The terms of the 149 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: settlement were confidential. I mean it was reported in the 150 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: news the amount that Stephen ultimately settled for, but we 151 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: were not able to verify that. Then he has another lawsuit. 152 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: The thirty six million dollar lawsuit is by him individually 153 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: against who who does he sue them? Well to clarify 154 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: that there's only one lawsuit. So when he sues in 155 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: October of um two thousand and four, that is for 156 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: thirty six million dollars against Mantua County, the former sheriff 157 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: and the former district attorney. And it's important to recognize 158 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: the timing of the settlement because Stephen does not settle 159 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: the lawsuit until he has been charged with the murderer 160 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: of Teresa Halbuck, until he is desperate for funds, and 161 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: you know, he says himself, like, what good is money 162 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: going to do me? You know, if I can't prove 163 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: my innocence, you know, I have to give up. What 164 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: was his goal of holding somebody accountable for what had 165 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: happened to him to try to defend himself. So it 166 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 1: was it was the single lawsuit. There was no settlement 167 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: of this lawsuit, and some other lawsuit was hanging over 168 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: the heads of Colburn and Link and those people. Correct, 169 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: it was one loss. It was one lawsuit. Um. And 170 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: you mentioned Colburn and Length, they had they had been 171 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: deposed in the lawsuit, and the content of those depositions 172 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: was about this phone call about Gregory Allen confessing or 173 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: somebody purportedly Gregor Allen confessing to this assault for which 174 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: Stephen was serving time. And what was done with that 175 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: phone call and the fact that it was buried and 176 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: that it was there were no reports written and there 177 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: were no repercussions for them for them, they were not. 178 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: At the time, there was talk among the civil attorneys 179 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: that perhaps those two individuals should be added as defendants 180 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: in the lawsuit, but that did not have an opportunity 181 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: to happen because he had to crash the whole thing 182 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: to get the money to pay for the That's right, 183 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: I think an interesting detail that came out during Stephen's 184 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: trial when Dean Strang was cross examining then sergeant patrol 185 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: Sergeant Andrew Colburn, he asked him, at the time you 186 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: were deposed in the lawsuit, did you have any concern 187 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: that you yourself might be added as a defendant in 188 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: the lawsuit? And Colburn answered affirmatively, He said, yes, it 189 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: had crossed my mind. At the center of this is Avery, 190 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: who I'm assuming you spent countless hours with him or 191 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: around him correct, um, hours on the phone mostly UM. 192 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: We were able to visit him in the county jail times. 193 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: I would guess maybe eight, maybe ten. How did he 194 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: strike you? Well, he's about two inches shorter than I am, 195 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: and I'm what am I five ft five, So I 196 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: was a little surprised by his stature and um, but 197 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: he had a big smile, He was very affable, he 198 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: was very open, he was very gracious, and um, you know, 199 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: it just it appeared to us that this was somebody 200 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: with a very simple value system, but a value system. Nonetheless, 201 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: the thing about this that that I think about in 202 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: terms of the two of you as filmmakers, is you 203 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: spend countless hours immersed in this, and did you develop 204 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: an ability to tell who's telling the truth and who's lying? 205 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: Did you become a bit more expert at that from 206 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: doing this? I mean, I think we certainly developed the 207 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: ability to identify, you know, should I be inclined to 208 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: trust this person and what they're saying. And I think 209 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: that was about, you know, being there and and hearing 210 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: from so many people and going into the documents, you know, 211 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: because we were one of the things that series is about, 212 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: and one of the things we were fascinated with was 213 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: there was what was going on in public and then 214 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: there was what was going on behind the scene. Give 215 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: us a distinction that struck you well, you know, once 216 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: Brendan got sucked into this case, and so you know, 217 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: Stephen's sister is the mother of his nephew, and it 218 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: becomes his family drama and in the public, there's a 219 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: lot of talk of Barbyonda is, you know, trying to 220 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: protect Steven avery and the family is forcing Brendan to recant. 221 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 1: You know. Then you go to their living room and 222 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: they're fighting over this, and she actually doesn't necessarily even 223 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: believe in Stephen or her son. She she thinks every 224 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: might have killed the woman. Yeah, there are moments like that. 225 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: She is too, she's grappling it with it herself. And 226 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: you know, that's just all simplified and missed on the 227 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: public level. And and and again. To interject this for 228 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: people who haven't seen the piece, the man who was 229 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 1: released from prison after eighteen years on the rape charge 230 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: is then accused of murder. And then it goes to 231 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: another level again when the guy's nephew is roped into 232 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: the whole thing to confess against him because they don't 233 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: have any really reliable physical evidence, so they need an 234 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: eye witness. What else happens to her in her head 235 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: extremely extremely important to tell us us for us to 236 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: believe you, come on, Brendon, what else? I don't even 237 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: know the worst to describe it, That's all I can't remember. 238 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: All right, I'm just gonna come out and ask him 239 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: who shot her in the head? He why didn't you 240 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: tell us that it? Now you remember it when you 241 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: were around that family, Because they do come across. There's 242 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: a little whiff of some kind of clear shade appellatesha 243 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: to these people, describe them. These people were not Bible 244 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: thumping God fearing people. No, although it is interesting, um, 245 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: you know in the episode UM eight, I guess it 246 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: is Dolores, Stephen's mother says, you know, I know God 247 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: is on my side. You know, they might not be 248 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: Bible thumping and you know performing that they're going to church, 249 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: but but they have faith. They have a belief system. 250 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: And I think in terms of how the community thinks 251 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: about them or respond to them, I think the dividing 252 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: line is really between people that know them and that 253 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: people that don't know them. They have supporters, people that 254 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: have interacted with them, customers, and how they're treated everybody there. 255 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: The law enforcement community, particularly the one that Colburn and 256 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: Lank work with that law and that's the County correct 257 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: the County Sheriff's Department that they have their opinion of 258 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: the the Avery family. But the Averys had their supporters 259 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: and they were members of a community. Correct, not everybody 260 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: hated them. I thought they were trash, that's right. I 261 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: Mean one of the things we came to learn is that, um, 262 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, in a way, the Averies were considered the 263 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: other in that particular community. They were not dairy farmers. Um, 264 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: although many of them worked in factories. It's also there's 265 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: there's industry in Manittoau County as well, but um, you know, 266 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: their profession, their livelihood was different and they were essentially 267 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: members of an underclass. So they were identified as the other. 268 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: And as you mentioned earlier, Alec, um, you know, they 269 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: weren't churchgoing people, so in a way, they you know, 270 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: they didn't fit into the community in that sense. But 271 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: what was interesting to us was that, um, you know, 272 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: the Averies were content. They kept to themselves and they 273 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: were happy with that. You know, they did tend to 274 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: get into some trouble when they did venture out into 275 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: the community. I mean you mentioned that Stephen had some priors, 276 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: and he certainly did so. Um. That was interesting to 277 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: us though to to try to it get a sense 278 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: of how self aware they were or how they considered 279 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: themselves in the community, and and did they were they 280 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: conscious of being thought of as the other and it's 281 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: it seemed to us that they weren't really conscious of that. Um, 282 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: you know, you were accused of soft selling some of 283 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: those priors and do you agree was there If you'd 284 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: had it to do over again, would you have been 285 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: more explicit about what he did? Explain about that now? 286 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: I mean we you know, our process was about using 287 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: primary source materials. To the extent they were available to us. 288 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: We would review them, and we wanted support for whatever 289 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: was included in the documentary. We fact checked, We had 290 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: multiple sources for things, right. I mean, it's been reported 291 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: in the national news in the last few days. The 292 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: documentary says this, but the truth is this. I'm assuming 293 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: that when this thing rolled out, I'm sure Netflix has 294 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: a legal department like no other is rich. Retflix is rich, 295 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: and they've got a lot of money to fact check 296 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: and so forth. I'm sure they put you through the 297 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: ringer about that for a period of time. Did you 298 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: have copious sessions with them about that? Yeah? I mean certainly, 299 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: all the legal checking, all of the clearing of title 300 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: and checking all of our releases, everything was a thorough process. 301 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: When you're done with that process and the program has 302 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: rolled out, on Netflix. Certainly you anticipated you would have 303 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: some blowback from the principles involved, correct, Did you prepare 304 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: yourself for that? Yeah, I mean it's no surprise to 305 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: us what Crats is coming out and saying. I mean, 306 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: I can't even say I'm disappointed. I mean, it's so predictable. 307 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: What's disappointing is that, you know, the reporters on the 308 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,719 Speaker 1: national news are not asking him what is your source, 309 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: They're not looking at the record and challenging him on 310 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: his statements. They're sort of doing exactly what we document 311 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 1: happened during the hall Buck case. He makes a statement, 312 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: the media puts it out there as truth, and you know, 313 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: off we go. The repercussions from the series seemed to 314 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: change daily. Last week, Avery's former fiance Jodi Stakowski, who 315 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: appears sympathetic to him in making a murderer, gave an 316 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: interview stating that she believed he murdered Hallbach. She also 317 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: said she asked not to appear in the series. Moira 318 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: and Laura have responded by saying, quote, we and our 319 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,959 Speaker 1: legal team are very comfortable that we had the appropriate 320 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: consent from all of the interview subjects, including Jody unquote 321 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,239 Speaker 1: Explorer the Here's the Thing Archives, where I talk with 322 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: Gay Tales, the father of long form journalism. I never 323 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: wrote about a person, and I've written about hundreds and 324 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,479 Speaker 1: hundreds of people that I couldn't go to see again. 325 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: I never had someone that wouldn't see me. In fact, 326 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: my attitude was the story is never over. I could 327 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: write about someone that's a performing athlete or performing an actor, 328 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: and then ten years later and go back and see 329 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: them again. I wrote about Peter Tool my favorite person 330 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: in not long after who did Lawrence Arabia. I kept 331 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 1: in touch with him for the next forty years. I 332 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: believe that people, as long as they're alive, have more 333 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: stories to tell. Just because you published an article in 334 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: the New York Times and the New Yorker magazine doesn't 335 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: mean that the story is over. Take a listen that 336 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:41,239 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec Baldwin and 337 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing. The ten part Netflix 338 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: series Making a Murderer has made more than a few 339 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: people household names, including Avery's defense attorney's Dean Strang and 340 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: Jerry Beauty and Teresa Hallbox brother Mike. I want to 341 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: talk about a person who to me is one of 342 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: the more disturbing figures in the show, and that is 343 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: Haubuck's brother hopefully, you know, move on, hopefully with Teresa 344 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: still in our life. And this guy was as velvety 345 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: and as seamless and did not seem to be mourning 346 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: his sister at all. What was your opinion of the brother. Well, 347 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: there's an interesting detail. Um, when Dean and Jerry first 348 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: came to represent Stephen Avery, one of their early motions 349 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: they brought they were going to seek a gag order 350 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: essentially against the state because, um, you might recall back 351 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: in November when law enforcement took over the Avery property 352 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: for eight days of searches, they were actually daily press conferences, 353 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: televised press conferences that were also you know, on radio 354 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: and in print, and um, you know, as soon as 355 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: these private attorneys came to represent Steven, they wanted to 356 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: put a stop to that. And what happened was the 357 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: two sides ultimately entered into a stipulation and said, Okay, 358 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: neither side, we'll talk to the press, we won't do 359 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: any more pre child publicity. But I think what's interesting 360 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: to note is that Mike hall Buck, who was essentially 361 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: the spokesperson for the hall Buck family. Um, it seems 362 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: ultimately like sort of was passed the torch by Ken 363 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: Cratts because my Callbuck continued to speak in the press. 364 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: You concerned that with each witness, this window of reasonable 365 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: doubt keeps getting wider and wider. No, I'm not concerned 366 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: at all. Um. I think it's a hand that's kind 367 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: of forced upon the prosecution team. That's, you know, kind 368 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: of my belief. So not concerned at all. He was 369 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: essentially channeling the state's narrative. I mean, he was saying explicitly, 370 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: what matters to our family is that Stephen Avery is 371 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: convicted of this crime. Did you interview them at all? 372 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: Did any of the hall Bucks agree to be interviewed 373 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: by you? Um? They did not. I mean, like most 374 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: of our subjects. Um, we wrote a letter to them 375 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: introducing ourselves, introducing the project and what our goals were. Um. 376 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: And that resulted in us eventually having coffee with Mike. 377 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: What what my recollection of what Mike told us was, 378 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: you know, because we had described, you know, we want 379 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: to look at the American criminal justice system. We think, 380 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot to be learned from this 381 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: case and you know, the relationship of the past case 382 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: since you know Steven's wrongful conviction to what's happening now. 383 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: And he told us, you know, I don't think there's 384 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: any problems with the justice system and there's nothing to 385 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: be learned from Stephen Avery. Here was a man who 386 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: believed that Stephen Avery had murdered his sister. And you know, 387 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: Steven Avery had served eighteen years in prison as an 388 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: innocent man, and so potentially his narrative was that, you know, 389 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: because he was in prison for eighteen years, he was 390 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: now a murderer. So how could he at the same 391 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: time say there's nothing wrong with the American criminal justice 392 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: system finding her cell phone records? How does something like 393 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: that occur? Um, there are a couple of us that 394 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: tried figuring it out, but basically figured out her password 395 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: and made up a user name that worked and got 396 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: into her her phone records. And I mean they pin 397 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 1: it right off the deleted voice about that the boyfriend 398 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: talked about or he was queried about when he was 399 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: on the stand, explained to the audience what happened. The 400 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: woman hall Box is murdered. This is the murder that 401 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: Avery is then accused. She comes to photograph cars. She 402 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: comes to the salvage yard. She comes out from what 403 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: town was she based in? Her workplace was in Green Bay, 404 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: but she lived in um Callimet County, so she comes 405 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: there and patrols that area and photographs cars to put 406 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: on their website and their publication. An auto trader now 407 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: explain how there were messages of hall box that were 408 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: deleted by who who admitted to that? No one ultimately 409 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: admitted to leading her messages. Her brother, Mike admitted to 410 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,479 Speaker 1: listening to her her voicem guessing her password. I believe 411 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: both Mike and Teresa's ex boyfriend, Ryan hilligas Um claimed 412 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 1: to have yes to have guests Teresa's password and go 413 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,239 Speaker 1: in and listen to her voicemail. That's right, And some 414 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: of her voicemails are deleted. That's right. I mean one 415 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: of the one of the reasons this woman was reported 416 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: missing was because people were calling her voicemail and getting 417 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: the message that her mailbox was full. This was unusual 418 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: to people. She was very prompt and polite and got 419 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: back to people, So that was that was a concern. 420 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: That was one of the things that made people call 421 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: each other. And have you seen her. Have you seen her? 422 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: So we know that the mailbox was full as of 423 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: a certain date. But then they have records a few 424 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: days later and there's not enough messages there to trigger 425 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: and Hiligas has guessed the passport, and Hiligas has a 426 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: scratch on his face. And Hiligas is her ex boy friend. 427 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: They had been uh, they've been partying. Correct or they 428 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: were part they were broken up. They were broken up, 429 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: broken up? How long were they broken up? To do 430 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: recall that? I believe Ryan testified that they last dated 431 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: when they were still in college. I believe Do you 432 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: remember where? Yeah, I don't know how many years the gap, 433 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: It was a long time. But they were in each 434 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: other's lives. Teresa lived with a friend, a male friend, 435 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: in a house. That friend was one of Ryan's best friends. 436 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: I mean, they were in each other's lives. The other part, 437 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: because I want to get to your personal stories of self, 438 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: just pick one more topic of this to talk about, 439 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: which is this stuff about the burning of the body 440 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: parts being moved from a burn pit. Explain to the 441 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: audience what the prosecutors claim happened to Hallbox body in 442 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: their mind, and what you think the potential conflicts are 443 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: in the actual evidence that you know of. Well, the 444 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: state presented evidence and argued to the jury that Teresa 445 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: hallback after she was shot in the head and murdered 446 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: in that way, that her body was mutilated and burned. 447 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: Investigators recovered human cremains from a burn pit outside of 448 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: Stephen Avery's bedroom window essentially and right behind his trailer, 449 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: that's right. They also recovered human remains from a burned 450 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: barrel which was outside of Stephen's sisters residents next door 451 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 1: to Steven's property. But interestingly, the defense elicited testimony from 452 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: the state's owned forensic anthropologist who testified, that's right, Dr 453 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: Leslie Eisenberg, that there were what seemed to be human 454 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: cremains also UM found in a quarry a quarter of 455 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: a mile away from these other two locations where the 456 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: cremaines were found matched that essentially matched, I mean they 457 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: were burned to burn in cal signed to the same 458 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: degree as these other bones, and you can't do a 459 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: DNA test on that material um. Well, just to be clear, 460 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: the bones found in um in Steven's burn pitt and 461 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: the bones found in the burned barrel behind Barb's house 462 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,719 Speaker 1: those were matched to Teresa hall Buck. It's it's the 463 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 1: bones that were in the quarry pile that we're too 464 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: small and and too fragmented to be able to identify. 465 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: You think he's guilty, Avery, I mean, you know this 466 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: following this case for a decade was you know, such 467 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: an incredible experience, which we tried to offer to our 468 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: viewers as well. But you know, we went in with questions. 469 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: You know, that's what got us to move from New 470 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: York to mash Walk. We thought, naively, oh, we'll get 471 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: answers to these questions, and it's just so clear that 472 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: it just leads to more questions, and um, you know, 473 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: there's no way I can claim to have any real 474 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: certainty about his guilty. I think if I was on 475 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: that jury, I would vote, um, that they hadn't proved 476 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: their case. You vote not guilty based on the case presented. 477 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: You're not saying he's innocent, but you're saying that the 478 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: case was just filled with inconsistencies. That's right, and that's 479 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: such an important distinction to make because that's what juries 480 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: are deciding. It's guilty or not guilty. There's no verdict 481 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: of innocent in this country. That's a good point. By 482 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: the way, I'm gonna quote you to borrow that from 483 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: you and nausea him. There is no verdict of innocent 484 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: in this country. That's great. Um. The juror who was 485 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: dismissed because of the family crisis or whatever was that 486 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: happened with his daughter, she was in a car accident. 487 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: That's right. That gentleman came out and mentioned that. In 488 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: the first balloting of the first preliminary balloting of the jury, 489 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: it was seven voted for innocent, corrected of twelve people. 490 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: That's correct. Yeah, when they walk in and you know, 491 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: just to sort of take a straw pole, that was 492 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: That was the pole. The juror you mentioned, Richard Mahler, 493 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: who was excused and who appears in the series, told 494 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: us about um at one point. The jurors who actually 495 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: were deliberating and taking their oath seriously. We're looking through 496 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: photographs of the bookcase from Steven's bedroom, and this is 497 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: a bookcase where a key piece of evidence, actually a key, 498 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: the car ignition key from Teresa Hallbuck's vehicle was supposedly 499 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: found by Officer Lieutenant James Lank And what this juror 500 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: said to us was that the jury was discussing how 501 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: before the key was found there was change, loose change 502 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: on top of the bookcase, and they were looking at photographs, um, 503 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: after the key was found, and that change was in 504 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: the same position. And why that was significant to these 505 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: jurors was that there was testimony that the key was 506 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: not initially discovered because it was hidden inside this bookcase 507 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: and had only fallen out after Sergeant Colburn claims to 508 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: have really shake in the bookcase and you know, done 509 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: all this stuff, the change remains intact. I mean, that 510 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: was the jurors analysis. And was there a period where 511 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: you sat there and said, you know, we're done, We're 512 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: gonna leave. And then you know in the Pacino has 513 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: that line in The Godfather Part three, I try to 514 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: get out, but they keep pulling me back in. Is 515 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: that your condition as well? Well? Um, you know we did. 516 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 1: We followed these cases through convictions and through sentencing. So 517 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: that was the summer of two thousand seven, and we 518 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: just practically speaking had to leave and we had to 519 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: go back to day jobs and try to dig ourselves 520 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: out a little bit from debt. What's your day job then, um, well, 521 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: my job before going to film school. I'm in Local 522 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: fifty two as an electrician, had worked on movie sets. 523 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: Film sets, you and I ever worked together? I think 524 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: we may have. I did some days on thirty rocks. 525 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's crazy right coming together. It's a coming together. Electrical. 526 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: I did electrical, but I'd also wore because a documentary editor. Um, 527 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: and then from there finally was like, I'm just going 528 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: to go to film school and do that. So um, 529 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: I sort of fell back on being an electrician. It 530 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: was a much easier career to go in for a 531 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: few days or a few months and go out of 532 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: so it allowed me the flexibility to keep doing this project. 533 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: You know. Part of it was just the time it 534 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: took really for the marketplace to evolve and for us 535 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: to be able to do enough in that sort of 536 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: part time way to get the project far enough along 537 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,479 Speaker 1: that we could show a place like Netflix what this 538 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: was and what we could do. And you know, at 539 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: that point then we wanted to do they right away Netflix, Yes, 540 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: right away? And what about you? The first meeting to 541 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: be specific, and what about what about you? What were 542 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: you doing to pay the bills? I was working as 543 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: a contract attorney doing electronic discovery for mainly for a 544 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: complex business litigation matter. So I was drowning in documents 545 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: every day essentially, and then drowning in documents relating to 546 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: all the matters in this story, as well as footage 547 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: and phone calls and everything else. Yeah, I mean there 548 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: were times where I would take Brendan Dassy's phone calls, 549 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: where would load up you know, my computer for me 550 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: to take to work or my iPad with Brendan Dassy's 551 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: phone calls, and I would be listening to them at work, 552 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: um and taking notes, which you helped us sift through 553 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,479 Speaker 1: hundreds of hours of these calls with his mother and 554 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: other people in his life. It's interesting how I didn't 555 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: assume that you put your legal career on hold, and 556 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: you didn't. You were practicing while you did this to 557 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: you know, have a have an income. But whatever your 558 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: aspirations were when you thought about going to law school 559 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: and you were in law school. Isn't it funny how 560 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: you didn't necessarily practice law of these last ten years, 561 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,719 Speaker 1: but you ended up doing more for this case than 562 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: any lawyer might have done in the work you've done. 563 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: Do you do have that feeling? I think that's an 564 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: excellent point. Actually, um more More pointed out to me 565 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: recently that you know, when this finally airs, the subjects 566 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: in our series will get to see, you know, a 567 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: much broader picture. I mean they they offered to us 568 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,879 Speaker 1: their piece of the puzzle essentially, and that was really 569 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: exciting to me because I hadn't really thought of it 570 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: in that way before. So we were looking forward to 571 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: sharing the series with you know, the world essentially, but 572 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: then also we wanted to see how our subjects would 573 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: respond to it. And yes, I mean I I continued 574 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: practicing law while working on this project, but I had 575 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: seriously scaled back prior to embarking on this journey. I 576 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: was working as an associated at a midsize firm in 577 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: Chicago and working practically every day of the week. I 578 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: went back to law school. I was trying to get 579 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: an advanced legal degree in l M and taxation. And 580 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: I was, um, you know, and I said, Okay, well, 581 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: I'm essentially going to demote myself. I'm going to work 582 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: as an hourly attorney. Um, take a tremendous pay cut, 583 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: but what I will get in exchange is flexibility in 584 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: terms of my schedule. I'll have more control over my schedule. 585 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: I won't have to be concerned about face time or 586 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: pleasing partners necessarily, and that will afford me what I 587 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 1: need to do to continue moving this project forward with Moira. 588 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: But I think your point, Alec is great because you know, 589 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: I know Laura very well, and you know what I 590 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: know is that you know she left her career in 591 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: law to go to film school. This This is you know, 592 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: four or five years before embarking on this project. And 593 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: she did that because you know, she thought she could 594 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: make more of a difference through film than through practicing 595 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 1: as a lawyer. And so your point is is perfect, 596 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: you hope. So I probably wouldn't do it this way, 597 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: but certainly because you are a couple, because your partners 598 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 1: in your private life. You tell me, Moira, what are 599 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 1: her strengths, what does she bring to the filmmaking process 600 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: that you think is important? I mean, I think Laura 601 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,919 Speaker 1: is one of the most moral and ethical people I've 602 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: ever met, and she's also one of the most detail 603 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 1: oriented people I've ever met. An LM and taxation, I hope. So, 604 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: so you know those three things right there, what that 605 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: brought to this project? The ability to you know, go 606 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: through the documents, you know, draw boundaries with our subjects, 607 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: you know, fact check anything we were going to put 608 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: into the series. You know, it's invaluable your term. Where 609 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: to begin? Um, I just felt very fortunate to be 610 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, partnered in life and in work with Moira 611 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: because she is the most trustworthy individual I know. And um, 612 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: you know, she she committed herself to this project. I 613 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 1: mean Moira, as she said she you know, she'd been 614 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: working as an electrician in the industry, worked as a 615 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: as a documentary editor, but really wanted, um, I think, 616 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: to work in fiction filmmaking and and and finally had 617 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: worked up the courage to say, I want to direct. 618 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: And I've tried these other things possible avenues to directing, 619 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm going to commit myself to entering into 620 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: this film program and become a director. And um, you know, 621 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: I asked her if she would partner with me on 622 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: this project, and she jumped in, and she gave everything 623 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: she had to it and never once made me feel 624 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: like she regretted it or that you know, there was 625 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: something better she could have been doing. And and I 626 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: respect her tremendously for that, and I appreciate that and 627 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: beyond that, just in terms of her creativity and um, 628 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: the talent she has. I mean, I I am just 629 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: in awe of Moira and her ability to edit this series. 630 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: I mean she were yeah, and I mean you know 631 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: where would would help contain my ideas in a way. 632 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: I mean she would you know, she would support them 633 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 1: and encourage them. But at the same time, I mean 634 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,240 Speaker 1: she just served in this incredible capacity as an editor 635 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: because you know, I wasn't the type of director who 636 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: would say, Okay, here's what I want to do and 637 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: leave for two weeks. You know, I was in the 638 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: edit room every day with MOIRAUM, but often I would 639 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: step away and you know, do research or um contact 640 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 1: our subjects, or do other things, act as a creative 641 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: producer or you know, think about more big picture stuff. 642 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: But Mara was really down in the weeds with the 643 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: material and did a fantastic job. Now the last thing 644 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: is so I could be silly about this and say, well, 645 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: I'm assuming your next movie is about figure skating or 646 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: something really kind of very schiffani and sweet. What's a 647 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: you got something going on? What are you doing? You 648 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it? Well? Right, I mean, 649 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: perhaps we don't want to, right. Maybe that's also just 650 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: a nice thing to say at this point, because you know, 651 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 1: the series launched less than three weeks ago at this point, 652 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: and I think we've finished it less than four weeks ago, 653 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: so and you know, here we are doing press and 654 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: we hosted family during the holidays, and so you know, 655 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: we can't wait for the moment to refill the well. 656 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: As they say. It's also we made this series to 657 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: start a dialogue, and it's important to us to be 658 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: part of that dialogue. So you know, we'll be doing 659 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,720 Speaker 1: this for a little while and you know, following this case, 660 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: if if things develop, but we do hope to to 661 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: find another another story that needs to be told, and 662 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: my Laura Rachariti and more Redeems find it, We and 663 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: many of their fans will be there to watch and listen. 664 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing.