WEBVTT - MIT Professor Daron Acemoglu Talks Liberal Democracy 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:07.040 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:09.719 All Right, I'm just going to say it, Settle into 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:11.160 a chair if you're in a car. I say this 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.640 often when we've got somebody spectacular, and we do have 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.200 somebody spectacular on because this is going to be a 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.599 conversation we have been talking about in the newsroom with 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.479 our team. Everybody's been reading this book, highlighting different things, 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:27.120 and so we're delighted to have a very special guest. 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:29.200 I want to start there with a quote from his 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.440 new book just out this week, and the opening of it, 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.520 the author I will do the reveal in a moment. Community, 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.640 self government, economic security, and other concerns relevant to the 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:40.160 working class are thus central to the kind of liberal 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:45.400 democracy he is advocating. These notions capture the essence of 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.040 what the famous English poet and Republican thinker John Milton 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.040 had in mind when he wrote, they who are greatest 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.200 are not elevated above their brethren, live soberly in their families, 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:59.480 walk the streets as other men may be spoken to, freely, familiarly, 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:04.360 from learly sorry, friendly with that adoration. This is in 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:06.800 the introduction page twenty eight of a new book out 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.840 is entitled what Happened to Liberal Democracy? We're making a 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:14.480 politics of shared prosperity. It's written by darn Asemoglu, his 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:21.600 economic science Nobel laureate and he is also Institute Professor 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:24.399 in the Department of Economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:26.360 I could go on about his accolades. I have to 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:30.000 say I said this earlier. You're the first person that 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.720 my daughter, who's now twenty three, studied economics. I've been 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.399 doing this for years. When I mentioned that I was 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.920 reading your book and talking, she was starstruck. And she said, 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:44.319 from freshman year, she has been reading your research, citing it, 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:47.240 citations and all of the work she's doing. And she said, 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.080 can you please forget his autograph? So we are delighted 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:51.680 to have you with us. 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:53.760 You've never said anything, truly, you've never said I've never 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:55.760 heard you say anything like that in the six years 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:56.680 we've been doing this together. 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:01.320 This is this is big action out come every week. 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.160 I guess we kind of rushing and stumbing through, but 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:09.040 I just we are delighted. You've sparked a conversation for us, 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:10.880 which is I think part of it. But let's get 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:12.880 to why did you write this book, you write a lot, 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.279 you do a lot of research. Why this book. 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:19.359 Because I think liberal democracy is one of the greatest 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:26.639 achievements we've had from our ape beginnings and lives in 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:33.160 very unequal circumstances and very uncertain existence mired by violence. 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.200 Today we live in very complex societies, open to ideas, 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.960 with lots of individual freedom. People participate in politics peacefully, 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:45.640 reach compromise, sometimes consensus, and moreover we get lots of 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:49.639 things from the government, including our ability to express our voice. 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.040 That is an amazing achievement, and we are, I think, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.720 at the cusp of losing it. Liberal democracy, which still 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:00.720 in my mind is the best framework definitely something we 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:04.400 very much need for the future, is in crisis after 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.840 decades and decades of actually serving us quite well. So 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:10.640 we have to understand that crisis and we have to 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.679 rebuild liberal democracy unless we risk we want to risk 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:15.240 losing it. 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:17.520 We're going to talk about how you think we can 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:19.960 rebuild it, but I want to just get some parameters 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.760 set here and do some definitions, because early on in 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:25.360 your book you talk about the definition of liberalism and 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:27.960 how it means different things to different people depending on 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.959 where you live. The European view versus the American view. 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.000 Just straighten that out for us right now before we 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:35.080 dive into this conversation. 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:40.119 Yeah, thanks, Tim, And that's very important. Liberalism has had 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.560 many meanings over the ages, and today it's a big tent, 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.200 but at the core of it is a commitment to 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:52.720 protect individual liberties, also protect the weaker members of society, 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:57.080 and also a commitment to progress from which we all benefit. 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:04.480 Those are the defining features of liberal ideas and they 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:09.760 have acted as a rallying cry for people to build 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.520 a better society. And the way that I define it 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:18.880 liberal democracy is the institutionalization of these ideas. It's carrying 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.479 them to the actual practice of our lives, and it's 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.120 been brilliantly successful in the grand scheme of things. 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:27.400 We've had. 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:33.120 Decades of very rapid growth under liberal democracy for the 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:37.080 about four decades following World War Two. Those were not 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.599 just high growth periods, but they were periods in which 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:48.400 inequality was remaining stable or sometimes even declining. Every demographic group, men, women, 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.560 by race, different education groups. They saw their earnings grow 0:04:52.800 --> 0:05:00.000 very rapidly. And you know, always political disagreements were very important, 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:04.200 but generally peacefully. Today if you look at the pictures 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:09.320 very different. Shared prosperity doesn't work anymore. Inequality has increased 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.960 a lot, but worse. In the United States, We've seen 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:16.400 about half of the population without a college degree experienced 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:22.200 stagnant or declining wages for about four decades, while productivity increase, 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:27.159 while people with college degrees postgraduate degrees improve their living 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:31.440 standards significantly. And when you ask Americans, they have such 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:36.600 negative views of democratic institutions, their trust in Congress, in 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:38.920 the Supreme Court, and the presidencies. At an all time 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:45.599 law the countries polarized, and very concerningly, all Americans, but 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:50.480 especially the young, are much less willing to say that 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.120 democracy is the best form of government, and they're willing 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.200 to experiment with different ideas. 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.240 They're really destined to come here. I think people point 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:04.280 fingers out a particular president or political figure, but we 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.240 were we destined to be here. 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:08.800 I wouldn't say we're destined to be here. But I 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:13.479 would also not blame it on a particular president or 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:19.159 particular set of choices that are US specific, because you 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:25.920 see very similar trends across many advanced nations and even 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.640 in the emerging world. So there are some commonalities there, 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:31.919 so that's very important to get the diagnosis right so 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:33.200 that we know how to deal with it. 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:35.440 You actually make the point early on, I mean, this 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:37.200 is the way your book begins, and Carolyn and I 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:38.599 were both struck by this because we hear a lot 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:42.560 about Victor orbon Now and the figure that he is 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:47.159 in Hungary. But you make the point that, look, this 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.760 is somebody who in the late eighties early nineties was 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.760 a very different leader and represented something very different, not 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.240 just for that country but for Europe. 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:02.839 Absolutely absolutely, and I think it is sort of telling 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:06.440 of the arc of liberalism that he was the poster 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:11.920 child for you know, liberty, for building democratic institutions, and 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:15.000 then he turned his back on all of these ideas. 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:16.920 You know. 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.760 The exact circumstances in Hungary, of course, are different. Post 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:23.360 transition societies had a lot of trouble. Many of them 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.440 navigated them better than Hungary. But I think the issues 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:31.360 that we see in the United States have commonalities with Hungary, 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:33.160 but they have a lot of communalities with what's going 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.840 on in the UK and France, in Germany, in the 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:36.840 rest of Europe. 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:39.840 Is there anywhere where this is not happening, right? Now 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.960 that you would hold up in twenty twenty six as 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.520 an ideal liberal democracy. 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:48.520 Ideal, Absolutely not. And I don't think if you ask 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.040 me what is an ideal that liberal democracy going back, No, 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:56.760 there isn't. That's liberalism is always an aspiring ideology and 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.600 liberal democracy is always a work in progress. But today 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.680 you see different degrees of crisis, and one place where 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:07.920 I would say the crisis is also showing up in 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:10.440 some ways but in a less severe form is Switzerland. 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:12.760 And one of the things about Switzerland is that it's 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:16.480 much more participatory. And you also see even today in 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:20.000 this polarized world that we live in where people shout 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:23.200 at each other, social media has really created a very 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:29.280 toxic ecosystem of exchange. You have recently experienced an amazing 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:34.480 achievement in Ireland in the context of this decision on 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:39.240 the referendum, which was based on citizens assemblies, building consensus, 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.960 changing people's minds, debating it for a long time, and 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.760 then putting it to vote for the people, where people 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:48.360 actually said this is what we want in two different referendums. 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.400 So there are ways in which we can make this 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.120 work even today, but there is a challenge. 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:57.839 There are challenges, and Tim and I both listen to 0:08:57.920 --> 0:08:59.880 some different podcasters. When you did with I think J. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.920 Sanger of Harvard that was really I said, what was 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:08.080 wonderful is it was a dialogue, which is so refreshing. 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.080 We talk about just even in our world that people 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.439 don't debate anymore. It's one view comes on And when 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:19.400 I started doing journalism, you couldn't present one voice without 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:21.720 having the other voice, especially on a topic. And it's 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.400 interesting to see how things have changed the sense of 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:29.960 community though, how important that is. And you know, I 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.840 think it might have been with mister Sanger, this concept 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:37.840 of people or maybe living different worlds, completely separate worlds. 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:39.320 Absolutely, and that's a problem. 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.040 It's a big problem. But let's go back to community, 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.200 because thank you for bringing it out with Carol. Community 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:52.800 was quite important for liberal aspirations going back several hundred years, 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:59.080 and when you look at early liberal democracy, communities played 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:04.120 a very important role. One of the very bad rock 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:09.440 ideas of liberal democracies that there should be self government people. 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:11.800 It's not just that you should be free to have thoughts, 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.960 that you should also be free to put them into practice. 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.319 That means that to have some control over your life, 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.719 and it's not enough or it's not even meaningful to say, oh, 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.200 you can achieve that by going to the polls once 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.920 every four years or five years and have a vote. 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:27.319 No. 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.360 That starts with local associations. But the Talkville saw in 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:32.679 the United States more than two hundred years one and 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.720 fifty years ago, and he thought that was just so remarkable. 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.480 It starts with local governments where people participate. It starts 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:43.079 with other organizations like labor unions that were a very 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:47.880 important way for many working people to participate in self government. 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:50.640 And all of these, you see, they start at the 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.760 community level. But there's one thing something else, and then 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:56.680 you actually put your finger on that, Carol, which is 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.439 that when we have a debate, I think the the 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:04.959 best way of ensuring that we're not just talking past 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:06.800 each other or we're not shouting at each other, is 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:13.079 that we have some shared values, shared moral understanding, shared principles. 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:17.520 And that again comes from communities and then emanates from 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.880 communities to the national level. So all of these are 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.559 very important. But liberal democracy over the last several decades 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.600 has also turned its back on communities. Communities have become 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.600 more segregated. There has been a deeper division in the 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.880 United States between say not just Republican and Democrat, but 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:39.319 between more educated and less educated segments. Their values have diverged, 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.840 their networks have diverged, and everything that was a bit 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:46.440 of a like a melting pot is no longer. One 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.400 very important one that we actually often overlook is where 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:54.240 people work the sort of of course I'm exaggerating, but 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:58.640 the typical firm of the industrial age was like a 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:03.680 manufacturing plant, where you had managers, you had consultants, you 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.320 had engineers, you had white color workers, blue color worker, 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.520 custodial workers. So it was a real melting pot. Today, 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:12.720 the image that you might have in your mind is 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.280 Google on the one hand and McDonald's on the other, 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.439 and complete divide in terms of not just income, education 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.840 and background on who works there. And so we're not 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:27.680 getting that melting that will bring those shared principles together 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:29.840 on which we can then build something better. Yeah. 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.120 Agree, Like I just think about growing up and like 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.000 the local shopkeepers and just we all were kind of 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:39.079 running in each other or a religious organization and meant 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:40.719 all different types of people. I know, we've got a 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:41.360 question coming up. 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.600 Yeah, this is actually a perfect question for a segue 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:45.880 that we wanted to get to and has to do 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.880 with technology and in your view of technology. We open 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.120 this conversation up to our viewers and listeners and we 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.880 got a great question from Colin joining us from Atlanta. 0:12:55.960 --> 0:13:00.599 Colin writes in could digital connectivity allow a more direct democracy? 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:04.720 With moving slightly away from representative democracy and to direct 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:08.480 democracy help alleviate concerns from those who are losing faith? 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:10.240 So two different questions there. I wanted to start with 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.280 the technology one because you have some really interesting views 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:17.559 about technology's role in actually moving us away from liberal democracy. 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:18.080 What do you think? 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:21.199 Well, I mean, let me just say that technology plays 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.760 a central role in the book in several parts, but 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:29.720 centrally in understanding how we transition from an industrial economy 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.080 to a post industrial economy. So the Google McDonald's is 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.680 just a symptom of something much broader about how the 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.800 economy is organized, and that was a technological transition. Partly 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:45.240 globalization played a role as well. But second, algorithms are 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:49.680 so much more important today they in some domains actually 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.920 rule our lives. So we have to come to grips 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:59.000 with the information ecosystem, communication ecosystem created by algorithms now 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:06.080 in both how digital technologies influence shared prosperity and how 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:11.240 algorithm influence our communication. I don't think there is anything predetermined. 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:16.040 Technology doesn't come with a pre programmed thing that says 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.840 I'm going to create inequality, I'm going to destroy communication. 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:21.600 It's how we. 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:24.520 Use technology, how we define technology, how we develop it. 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.880 And on social media, I think it's very telling to 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.240 go back to how people were viewing it in the 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.800 late nineteen nineties early two thousands. Everybody thought, i mean 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:38.000 almost everybody thought that this was going to democratize communication. 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.040 The Arab spraying was Facebook and Twitter in some places. 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:47.640 The new wikis were going to make information available and 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.600 you know those hopes, Okay, they turned out to be that, right, 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:56.200 we can agree on that, but they weren't completely naive. 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.600 The reason why they weren't naive is because technology had 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:05.520 that capability. We could have built new communities for reliable information, 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:09.760 to create new compromises, to find new bridging ways in 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:13.120 which we can bring ourselves together. But it turned out 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.880 that the key decisions that many companies made were not 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.040 about that. My Space, for example, one of the first 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:21.160 social media side is a bit closer to that because 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:22.480 it brought communities together. 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:24.280 Shout out to tom MySpace. 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:30.840 Okay, fantastic, yes, But algorithmic feeds that essentially amplified the 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:35.720 most incendiary material, the one that gets views because it's extreme, 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.240 that angers the other side and motivates your side to 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.360 become even more vocal. Those are the kinds of things 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.440 that rise up in the algorithmic feed And on another part, 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:48.960 they are the things that create envy and undergird mental 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:49.800 health problems. 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:50.640 But all of them. 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.760 You know what they also do. They take their attention 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:59.080 towards social media communication, and as a result, Americans interact 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.000 much less physical leave with other people. They have fewer friends, 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:06.840 fewer close friends. They spend much less time going to bars, 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:07.600 coffee shop. 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:08.440 Nobody calls anybody. 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:12.560 Nobody calls anybody anymore, and that is very important because 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.720 the social networks that form are messy. They teach us 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.920 to make compromises, and they give us a lot of rich, 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:22.040 contextual information about our lives. 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:25.720 Do you blame the tech CEOs who run those companies? 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:26.840 Oh, we might as well. Why not? 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:30.880 Well, because it is an interesting time where you are 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:35.400 seeing lawsuits against social media companies meta platforms. We keep 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:37.880 referencing this in their latest earnings. I think it was 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:39.920 two billion dollars for certain lawsuits and they said it 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.680 was a material impact on the company. And it's just 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.680 the beginning of lawsuits from our reporting team. But I 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:51.440 do wonder what is their responsibility? And this goes to 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.320 you get into this too, like the people who run 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:58.560 these firms, and they're very wealthy and very influential. And 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:00.520 I don't think I'm speaking out of turn. And we 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.840 talked about having a seat at the table, the political table. 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.720 We don't. It's people with their deeper pockets. Well, you 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:12.639 are very influential, Carolin, but we actually you are very 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:15.840 But anyway, but of. 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.959 Course we all have responsibility. We all have responsibility. And 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:25.159 you know what, let's take one step back. If democracy 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:31.720 is in crisis, we are all responsible because democracy requires active, vigilant, 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:33.960 participating citizens. 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.240 Why are why aren't people more active? 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.640 I think we took some of these things for granted, 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:48.280 we've gone down the path of sort of easy sort 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:55.800 of life, and some of what democratic citizenship requires is messy. 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:57.320 Some of the things that we should do in our 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:02.159 communities are costly, like for example, giving you know, you 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.159 get very little benefit from that other than the pride 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:07.720 that you're contributing to something. And people used to do 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.720 that much more and they do that much less. That's 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.440 just a symbolic thing that shows that if you don't 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:19.560 create the right narrative, the right sort of way of 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.920 drawing on our responsibilities, people that are going to start 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:24.600 withdrawing a little bit and then a little bit more, 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:26.760 and then a little bit more, and then the result 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.560 is we're not participating in communities and we're not participating 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:30.600 to defend democracy. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:36.080 But I can't help but think of the changing view 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:40.080 that Americans have about democracy in recent years. And I 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:44.840 think back to the Democratic National Convention in twenty twenty 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:49.320 four and the core message from Democrats and it was 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:51.800 I'll never forget this. I was watching this on TV. 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.280 I watched the Republican one as well, but they played 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:58.240 this video that was basically the highlight reel of January sixth, 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.000 and it was, you know, Carol and I were on 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.480 air covering January sixth when it happened. We were speaking 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.680 to our colleagues who were at the capital, who were, 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.520 you know, felt under attack. And I remember watching that 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:17.879 and thinking, wow, you know, there's no way that Trump 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.040 is going to win this election because Americans are being 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:25.959 reminded of this, right, right, right. But it's like January 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:31.600 sixth never happened to so many people, including lawmakers who 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:36.240 stand side by side with the president, and at one 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.399 point we're very critical of him, and I'm just curious. 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:43.760 It's like, does that stuff not matter in today's age or. 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.879 Does it or does that really matter to show that 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.600 there are people who somehow feel like I don't have representation. 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:53.160 I'm looking for another way. I don't know if that's 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:54.080 part of well. 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:55.560 I mean, I think, look, it also gets to the 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.119 court and we'll talk about economics. But it's like, obviously 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.840 it was what voters felt like. You know, they were 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.640 driven by economic issues at the poles, not democracy issues. 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.560 I think they were driven by motivated by economic issues, 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.560 and they were also reacting to Biden's presidency that they 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:16.119 thought in some ways didn't work very well. And I 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.280 think part of the reason why January six was not 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.440 front ten center, it's cognitive dissonance. Once they said they 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.439 were going to vote for the Republican alternative because we 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.119 want to vote against the establishment, and right now the 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:34.160 establishment is Biden and the left you know, is always 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:38.000 more at the center of liberal democracy because it was 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.280 you know, things like the New Deal liberalism or the 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:44.080 social democracy in Europe that led the charge. So it's 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:48.480 more associated with establishment. So nenti establishment feeling turns against 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.760 that and then cognitive dissonance. I don't want to hold 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:56.240 two conflicting thoughts in my mind. I'm going to support Trump. Well, 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.960 then I'll downplay January sixth. But the media eco says, 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:05.160 played a very important role. If the media ecosystem was integrated, yeah, 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:07.760 and the communities were integrated, that would be much harder 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.840 because your brother, you wouldn't be fighting with your brother 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:13.919 and he would remind you look or or don't you 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:18.000 forget January sixth. But today, either in your community there 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.800 is nobody who has an opposite view to yours, or 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.919 if they do, the situation has become so polarized that 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:26.760 you don't listen to them because you think of them 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:28.879 as the enemy, even when they are your brother. And 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.600 that's really not very productive. But that's in again, an 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.720 ecosystem that we've created. We don't need to be in 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:37.600 that ecosystem, do you think. 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:39.800 And we're going to take a break and then come 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:43.199 back and talk some more. In terms of social media companies, 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:47.879 technology companies, there needs to be some kind of greater 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.040 regulation over them. In terms of these platforms because they 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:53.199 are so influential. 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:59.640 Yes, absolutely, So let's take a step back. And democracy 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.720 needs citizenry, as we discussed, but that needs to be 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:11.160 informed citizenry. So information relevant for politics in some level 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:14.879 is a public good and if it becomes very polluted, 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.320 it makes things very difficult. So imagine that a mayor 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:22.640 takes important steps and shows how you can rebuild your community, 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:26.040 provide better public services, improve things, you mean the job 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:33.639 of the mayor, for example, But then social media presents 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:37.840 that as a complete failure to everybody. 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:39.440 That's going to create. 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:43.600 Real difficulties now. But it's a very delicate issue. Liberalism, 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.160 as I said, has to spend four starts to stand 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:49.200 for freedoms, and freedom of speech is critical. 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:54.040 And even if you don't believe in that or it's 0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:56.240 a controversial position. 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:00.320 I am. I am a free speech absolutist. I think 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:04.199 individuals should be free to express their opinion, but I 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:08.520 don't think free speech extends to algorithms. So I should 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:10.480 be able to say whatever you want. I want you 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:12.840 should be able to say whatever you want, Carol. But 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:16.080 then if algorithms take the worst of what we say 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:19.040 and amplify that, that's not freedom of speech, that's manipulation. 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:23.000 So that's why we need to put some rules for algorithms. 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:26.080 For example, one thing that would work is if we 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.560 go back to the MySpace day without algorithmic feed you 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:34.680 on social media. TikTok wouldn't work because it's exactly based 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:37.360 on this algorithmic feed model, but the other ones would work. 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:40.239 Facebook could work where just like before, you would go 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:44.000 and listen to or watch the videos from your friends 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:47.680 and neighbors or the trusted news sources, but not from 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:52.840