WEBVTT - Bonus: In Conversation with Nora McInerny, Pt 2 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:12.080 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:15.120 Danny Shapiro and this is a special bonus episode of 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:20.320 Family Secrets. This summer, the wonderful Nora mcinnerney, host of 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:24.439 the podcast Terrible Thanks For Asking, joined me for a 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:28.200 live taping of Family Secrets at Rizzoli Bookstore in New 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:39.080 York City. This is part two of our conversation. So, 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:40.839 so we're going to open it up to questions, and 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:43.760 there's a mic up here. Um, so anybody who has 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.440 a question should come up and kind of I know, 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:48.640 it's a little My favorite part of any event is 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.560 just the silence and then the mercy when someone stands 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:53.880 up and then you hope she's asking a question, but 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:56.520 maybe she just wants a sparkling water. Now she's gonna 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:02.000 ask a question. What angel Um. I'm a bit more 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.399 familiar with Danny life now there from There was Your Life, 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:11.200 nors m very ser loss Um. I was curious a 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.960 few years ago. I think there was a popular book 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:18.600 Calum Breath Becomes singer Um. I guess it's kind of 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:22.240 written from the other perspective where the doctor was very sick. 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.319 I think he may also had a bring tumor of 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.200 some sort. And what I'm wondering whether you read that 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.399 book and how does it make you feel, because it 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.720 is kind of from the opposite side. Um, When Breath, 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.840 When Breath becomes There is by Paul Colin Eathi and 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:42.399 or Calanthi and uh. He was He was a physician, 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:44.880 and I think he had lung cancer and very he 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:49.720 had all the cancers and he wrote a beautiful memoir 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:52.960 and his wife finished it, Lucy finished it for him. 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:55.320 And I could not read it for the longest time. 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.360 And I got maybe a hundred of them gifted to me, 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:00.560 people You're gonna love this book, and I was like, no, 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:05.040 I won't. I'll show you, No, I won't. I did 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:10.760 read it um eventually, and it was oddly comforting. It 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:16.919 was oddly comforting. Aaron had a very different personality than Paul. 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:19.800 Aaron was just but he was also so buoyant. Aaron 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:24.040 was just so happy and alive. And he always told 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.240 me like, this is okay. It's okay. Even when I 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:29.919 was bawling, like no, it's not you have a brain cancer. 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:35.440 He was like, it's okay, it's okay. And Paul's book 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.760 made me feel like maybe it really was and in it, 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.000 he writes this beautiful letter to his daughter, and I 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.160 remember being jealous when I read that, because I had 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.160 asked Aaron, do you want to write a letter to 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:49.359 our son or maybe a couple of letters, like maybe 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:51.280 you write one for his like sweet sixteen. I don't 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:53.280 know if boys even have one. Also, I didn't have one. 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:54.560 I grew up in the Midwest. I was like, do 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.280 I get a car? My dad was like, are you 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.640 on drugs? Like what? I was like, well, I've been 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.799 watching a lot of commercials. Um. But he writes this 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:06.080 beautiful letter to his daughter, and I remember asking Aaron 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:08.760 about that and he was like what No, he was 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.400 so uncomfortable, like what am I gonna write? Like, Hi, son, 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:16.320 Well I'm dead? And so he didn't. He didn't do that. 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:20.799 But I do think of my first book as as 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.560 that for Ralph, because I couldn't do that. But when 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.359 Breath Becomes airs as a very incredible book. It was 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.840 very comforting for me, but it was very resistant to 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.680 reading it. And whenever somebody is around somebody who's grieving 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.160 and they're like what should I do? What should I do? 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.400 I'm like, I mean, you can give him a book Um, 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:40.800 they might not read it, but it is a really 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.400 nice gesture. So if you're wondering what to get the 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:47.280 grieving person who has everything, not a hot dish, they've 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:49.600 got enough of those. Give him a book or a plant. 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.520 Not not your question, but you know it asked another question. 0:03:55.800 --> 0:04:00.000 I just interviewed a guest for season two, The Family Secrets. 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:05.160 It's launching in late August, and it's um, someone who's 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:09.360 whose wife recently passed away, and the secret involves that 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:11.840 they chose not to tell their their their children that 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:15.760 she was dying, and they're quite grown children. But she 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:19.800 talked about the way that she didn't want the casseroles, 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:23.839 like she just did not want that. She wanted to 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.760 be the bringer of the casseroles, not the receiver of 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:30.400 the casseroles. And um, it's funny the way I mean funny, 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.120 but the way that casseroles and hot dishes have become 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:38.760 like the symbol of all illness and what you know, 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:40.920 people want to do something right, they want to they 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.200 want to cook, they want to do they want to 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.200 do something, and they don't know what to do. Yeah, 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.040 I mean, food is helpful, but at the time I 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.080 was I was not eating casserole. I was eating like 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.719 a five pound bag of sour Patch kids, and that's 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:55.880 hard to like. It's hard to express someone that can 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.680 we bring something? I'm like, yeah, you can bring like, um, 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:02.479 I don't like a twelve pack of coke would be nice. Uh, 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.280 bag of taco bell. Actually someone did deliver taco bell. 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:10.640 That was a lovely gift. So. I just recently discovered 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.680 both your podcasts and I love them both. And I 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.200 am in complete agreement with Nora that you really should 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.120 if you had like a podcast where you just spoke quietly, 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:19.560 I'd probably could fall asleep to it. You have an 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:23.760 amazing SMR obviously, I was actually gonna stay in the 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:27.480 shapiro a SMR YouTube channel check it out later. I would, yes, 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:29.440 for people don't know what SMR is. It just people 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:31.720 talking really quietly and tapping and tapping their nails, and 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.320 you could just be like I'm Danny Shapira and I'm 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:39.960 an open a plastic selfing bag. Yeah I would. I 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:44.080 would download it. I'm already subscribed to exactly UM. So 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:46.880 I love both of your podcasts. I Uh. There are 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:50.159 certain ones though, where I see um, I see the 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:51.960 description before and I'm like, I don't know if I 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:53.839 can listen to it quite yet, because they can be 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.640 pretty intense. Was there one of your podcasts, one of 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.560 your episodes that was the hardest, really the most difficult 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:03.320 for you to do? I would I would say in 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:07.000 the first season it was the episode UM that's called 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.520 Band of Men. Um. I had been contacted a number 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:14.119 of years earlier by Um, a man who had gone 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:16.880 to the same high school as me. UM, and I 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:18.480 didn't know him. He was a couple of years younger 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:20.640 than than I was, so we hadn't been in each 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:24.080 other's social circles. But it had turned out that he 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:27.719 was one of a really significant number of boys who 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:32.200 was sexually abused by a very charismatic social studies teacher 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:37.520 slash boy Scouts leader slash you know, wilderness counselor in 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:39.320 the at the camp all the boys went to. He 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.240 was just a complete groomer of of boys of a 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:45.960 very young age, sort of ages ten to twelve. And 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.680 he had come to me years earlier because he knew 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:51.400 that I was a writer and that I knew a 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.200 lot of writers in journalists and maybe I could help 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:55.960 him get the story out. And I had tried. I 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.120 spoke with a friend of mine at sixty minutes. I 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:02.240 really wanted to help these guys be able to tell 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.320 their story. The school was behaving badly. It was just 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:08.680 a very upsetting, infuriating story, and I wasn't able to 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:10.600 because the school was like a nice private school in 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:12.840 New Jersey. But it wasn't St. Paul's, you know, it 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.280 wasn't horas Man. There had already been these stories. There 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:19.280 was like enough boy abuse stories out there apparently, So 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:23.000 when I was launching Family Secrets, I approached him and 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:24.320 I said, I think I do have a way of 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.520 getting your story out, um. But it was an extremely 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.960 emotional interview. That was one of the ones that I 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:36.120 did in my son's old playroom with the with the 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:39.119 stuff hippopotamus and the and there was something about seeing 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.560 it's actually in my introduction to that episode, being in 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:47.120 this boy's playroom, you know, as his mom and thinking 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.320 about this this long ago boy who had just been 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.000 through this horrific, horrific I mean, I think I think 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:55.520 we spent two and a half hours on that particular 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:00.120 conversation interview, you know, to ultimately kind of carve of 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.840 it the story that needed to be told, but it was. 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:04.760 And then the more that I knew about it, the 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:06.800 more that I realized how many of those boys I 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.040 had known, you know, as as a kid. So I 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:13.440 had a very it was personal. The episode that I 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.280 was thinking of was actually very, very similar. I interviewed 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:20.240 this woman named Rachel and she was a victim of 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.520 Larry Nasser's and she didn't even know it, like she 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:25.400 was one of the she was one of the girls 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:27.920 who had defended him, essentially, and was like, what are 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:31.240 you talking about? And that was also a two and 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:33.760 a half hour conversation, and then it was several hours 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.200 of me transcribing and like listening to it over and 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.960 over while I was on winter break with my kids, 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.600 and and then also just looking around me at just 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:50.360 all of the ways that that that girls are discredited 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.920 and that they're sort of hyper sexualized in ways that 0:08:53.960 --> 0:09:00.360 you don't even necessarily think about. Um, yeah, that was 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:02.120 That was a really great winter break. I think I 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.040 sat in a room and cried for like half a day, 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:07.160 and the kids were like, is she okay? My husband 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:11.040 was like, oh, she's great, Yeah, she'll be out. And 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:15.079 then um, there's an episode in the first season called Semperify, 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:22.800 and it's about It started with with my dad. My 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:28.920 dad was a marine in Vietnam and he had left 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:33.200 a comment on like the Virtual Vietnam. While you can 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.240 leave a you can leave a comment on the memorial 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:39.080 for somebody. And I was trying to piece together the 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.280 stories that my dad had told me about his time 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:43.920 in Vietnam. There were not many, but for some reason 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:45.560 he told them to me. My brothers were like, well, 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:47.959 I didn't, so I had nobody to like compare them too. 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:53.679 And I went to the Marine Corps reunion that my 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.199 dad had never gone to. I got in touch with 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:58.280 all these guys that my dad was looking for. They 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.480 were looking for him, but I mean it was nine. 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:04.880 They all spelled each other's names wrong, by the way, 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:06.520 like on the back of on the back of the 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.480 three photos they had. And so I found these guys 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.680 and I went to this reunion and I figured out 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.640 the story that I was thinking about. And also I 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:19.240 just spent hours talking to these men that everybody had 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.720 told me would not talk to me. And they sat 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.319 in a hotel room with me and with my producer 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.320 Hans holding his arms up like this with a with 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:31.160 a mic he sat there for five hours silently while 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:35.800 I just wept, and they wept, not even necessarily about 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.200 the story that I was there for. And I just 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.120 felt like this immense sense of everything that my dad 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.120 had gone through and everything that he had he had 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.920 carried and never told us about. And I just felt 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:53.040 really heavy and wrung out. And I was also secretly 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:57.960 pregnant and um, and I just remember going back to 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.839 my hotel and helped my hotel room night after night. 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.240 We're there for four days, and just crying so hard 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:08.080 that my head hurts, and putting that episode together, crying 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.679 in the studio with Hans and and and crying as 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.440 we got a letter from the man who's at the 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:16.120 center of the story of boy who's at the center 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:19.880 of the story, the boy who died in this worthless way, 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.000 and all of these men looking at me and telling 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:24.640 me that they would go back because you have to 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.120 tell yourself it was worth it. You have to. And 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.719 I got a letter from his family afterwards, after the 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.080 episode came out that said thank you, and I will 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:34.960 go home and ball about that tonight. To put that 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:40.560 episode is just very um. That's probably the most important 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.160 one to me. And also the hardest to make. Yeah, 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:51.400 we're going to pause for a moment. Hey, it's really 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.400 cool to see you guys in person. Um So, kind 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:55.760 of on the note of what you were just talking about, 0:11:55.800 --> 0:12:00.240 you both have children, Can you talk about how your 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.280 work and your family co exist? More like how how 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:08.160 do you make those episodes? And then turned back to 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.120 your kid? Oh there, you know husband? Remember should we 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.000 have your son? Answered this one? Yeah, hey, Jacob, where 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:19.319 are you? My son's here somewhere. Um, you can stay there, 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:22.440 It's okay. So so my my my kid is now 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.679 you know, a young man. Um So it feels a 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:31.040 little bit different now. But throughout my writing life, much 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.200 of which coincided with his childhood, I had to find 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:41.200 a way to go to these places that were scary, dark, painful, 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:47.760 and not have them enveloped me. So I found myself 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:52.320 almost visualizing it as a place inside of me where 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.720 I could go that was small, and that when I 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.600 would go there, it would expand and it would become 0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.400 the whole world. And then I could be in that 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.760 world and swim around in that world and do whatever 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.560 I needed to do in that world. Um. But then 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.600 when I needed to leave that world, I could almost 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:09.880 like a deep sea diver, like just push up from 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.080 it and it would contract again and it would be 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.319 there waiting for me. And it wasn't like it wasn't 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.920 something that I was feeling all the time. But it 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:22.679 was kind of contained. It didn't take me over, um, 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:28.040 and you know, so I could be you know, me 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:30.599 as a mom and make lunch and put dinner on 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.040 the table, and help with homework and and be in. 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:40.679 I very acutely did not want to miss my family's 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.840 life as a young family. I had this feeling I'd 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.920 seen it too many times of just and and all 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.160 the truisms that people say it goes by so fast. 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:51.199 I mean it doesn't. It doesn't you know that the 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.360 days are long and the years are short. Um. But 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:55.840 I didn't. I didn't want to miss it. I didn't 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.199 want to look back. I was driven by not wanting 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.120 to look back and thinking, you know, I just I 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.440 missed it. I was too focused on, you know, my 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:06.480 my work, because my work is incredibly important to me 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.960 and I had big, um creative ambitions for it. But 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:16.800 I also had this opportunity to have this beautiful family 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.120 life that I wanted to have, So I I was 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.040 always kind of like even an example would be I 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.600 realized early on, uh, I was always a morning writer, 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.520 and if I didn't get to work first thing in 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:30.080 the morning, if I didn't roll out of bed and 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.920 get to work, then the work wouldn't happen. But now 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.200 I had a kid, so there was something definitely in 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.080 the way between rolling and bed and getting to work. 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:39.080 There was all sorts of other things that had to 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.280 happen to have his day get started. And and I 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.120 didn't want to just zone out on it and be 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:46.680 like the sort of did I get up? Did I 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:50.240 you know, like what has happened? Um? And so I 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.080 learned to like find a pause button, like to be 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.120 able to actually be like, all right, I'm I'm going 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.080 to be able to get up and be present and 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.120 you know, make the eggs and pack the lunch box 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.600 and drive to school and come back and then and 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.680 then I can stop the pause button and start and 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.920 start the day again. Um. Which was something that I 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.360 learned how to do out of necessity. Wasn't something that 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.200 I knew how to do, but I but I learned 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.720 how to do it. And I also became much more 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:26.200 resourceful in terms of um my time, Like, if I 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.360 had an hour, I used the hour. If I had 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.600 two hours, I used Like. The worst thing for me 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:32.680 was feeling like, Wow, I had that time, and I 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.640 just frittered it away because I got in my own 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.800 way and my resistance and my frustration got the better 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:41.800 of me. And then and then I learned that if 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:43.920 I did that, i'd really like be so mad at 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:45.960 myself at the end of the day that I wouldn't 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.600 want to be me. So I learned how to kind 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:53.360 of do end runs around that kind of experience. This 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.080 event was supposed to be on Wednesday night, and then 0:15:56.080 --> 0:16:01.000 I realized that um kindergarten graduation is Wednesday, and I 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.040 don't let you know these things. They don't let you know. 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:06.360 I'm like, what it feels like this could have gotten 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:08.280 on the calendar a little sooner. Also, do I read 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.800 all the emails? No, okay, I don't. We get a 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.640 lot of them. Um, and Danny was like, we'll figure 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:15.880 it out. So I know that I know that you 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.560 were that kind of mom, because you were awesome about that. Well. 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.760 I remember there's a annual writer's conference called a w 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:26.440 P and and it was I think some year when 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.560 my son was little. It was in maybe Washington, d C. 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:31.160 And I was supposed to be on a panel about 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:33.560 motherhood and writing. And on the morning that I was 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:35.360 supposed to head to d C from my panel on 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.280 motherhood and writing, there was a blizzard in Connecticut and 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.680 so snow day was called and I couldn't go to 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.880 the panel on motherhood and writing, which was an object 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:50.280 lesson in motherhood and writing. Yeah, it really is. Um 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:54.880 I I've not always been that intentional and I I 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:56.720 mean I went to work two days after I had 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.600 a baby. Part of it that was EP D and 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:02.440 PP and part of it was just like, oh my gosh, 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:04.639 are they gonna not, you know, support this if I 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.400 don't like, get right back to work. And also part 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.239 of it was I just I felt so attached to 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.119 the thing that I was making I didn't feel like 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.720 I could stop. And we have a two year old, 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:17.480 a six year old, a twelve year old, and a 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:21.520 seventeen year old. That's a wide range of humanity. And 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:23.960 because the older kids are newer to me, I really 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:26.840 don't want to miss anything about their lives. I want 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:28.520 to be there for middle school, I want to be 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.359 there for for high school stuff. Also it's just frankly 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:34.919 more interesting than preschool stuff. I got to be honest, 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:39.440 I'm like, wow, so what's happening? Like, tell me everything? 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.720 Like Also, seventh graders feel like very superior to sixth 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.679 graders in a way that's fascinating to me. I'm like, 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:48.720 remember that was you last year? And she's like was it? 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:52.960 Like it was? Um so at first. And Also I'm 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:55.720 self employed. Everything that I do is is basically on 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.280 a freelance basis, and that means your day could end 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.440 never and my days were ever ending and I would 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.480 open my laptop at ten and the kids noticed, and 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.800 my husband definitely noticed, and that felt terrible. And now 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.680 I'm just very like I have the most strict routine 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.520 out of anybody. I go to bed so early, I 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.280 wake up early, I go to the gym with my 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.200 biggest kid. Then I write for two hours. You might 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.200 be wondering where the kids. My husband's taking care of them, Okay, 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.920 he's where a man belongs in the kitchen, making breakfast 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:30.480 for the kids, getting him ready for school. And then 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.800 my day ends at three, so I can be there, 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:38.200 um too, when I remember to pick them up, I 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:40.920 can be there, am I always know, but I took 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.919 I took like email off my phone. I don't. I 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:48.200 don't do this as much because they are so interesting 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:52.199 and also if it's that urgent, maybe it's um like 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.320 a better be life or death at this point, which 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.560 I love. Like younger people, all the youths who are 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.280 like in their twenties, they just won't work like that. 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:04.920 They just will not. They're like, oh no, I don't 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.200 I'm not going to check my email at night, Like whoa, 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:10.840 look at those boundaries. It's bonkers. But when I was four, 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:12.679 I was like, I will do whatever you want. You 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:14.919 want me to come to your house and feed your 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:19.480 hamster for no money, boss, I'm there. True story. It's 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:20.880 like oh yeah, no, I mean it's a two hour 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:22.800 train ride, but yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it. 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:26.800 And like kids now in their twenties, like even early thirties, 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:29.399 they're like, oh no, I don't do that. No, I'm sorry. 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.640 I go to yoga that night. It's amazing. It's amazing. 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.600 Be like these gen zers there, they really they got 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:38.879 to figure it out. It's because their their parents sent 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:44.159 them to therapy. So uh, I was just wondering what 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:49.240 podcasts you guys listened to I listened to, Okay, my 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:53.719 favorite podcast is Who Weekly because it is pop culture 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.280 candy for me. It's everything you need to know about 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:58.760 the celebrities you don't so, you know, you always pick 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.240 up like an US weekly and you're like, who what 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:04.879 is this about? And it's two writers who I think 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:08.080 used to work for New York Magazine, Lindsay Weber Bobby Finger. 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.760 They're so funny and they just it's it's basically an 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:16.159 analysis of the celebrity industrial complex, where like everybody is 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.879 famous now, um, and you can't figure out why. And 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.359 it's not mean, but it's very, very, very funny, and 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.480 it comes out on Tuesdays and Fridays. And I also 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:27.560 listened to You Call Your Girlfriend. Those are the two 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:31.040 that I listened to every episode every week. And also 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.480 Forever thirty five podcast about the things we do to 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:39.639 take care of ourselves. And I listen to I Just, 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.920 I Just We're back on the jet ski Guys. I'm 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:47.919 literally flipping through the on my phone. I really I 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.600 try to listen to podcasts that I would never make, 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.560 if that makes sense, because they're just so they're so 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:56.200 different from what I do. They like, they just sit 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.080 down and talk and just like, I don't know if 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:00.760 you're this way, But if I'm writing a memoir, I 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:04.560 can't read any memoirs. I really can't. And if I'm 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.320 uh writing a novel, of which I've I've done one 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:10.760 in progress, Well that's not a good example because I 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:12.800 guess all I read is novels right now. But if 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:16.359 I'm in the middle of creating podcasts a podcast, I 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:18.359 can't listen to podcasts that are similar to mine. But 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:23.720 when I'm not, then I listened to sad narrative podcasts. Yeah, 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:25.439 I would say that's true for me too. I actually 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:27.560 stopped listening to Terrible Things for Asking while I was 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.159 making Season one of Family Secrets because what is that 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:34.720 dip in my DNA alright down by one? Because it 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:40.359 felt like, um, you know, in in writing, there's you know, 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:44.000 we talk a lot about voice, and I stay away 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:48.320 from work that feels that it could sort of seep 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:51.480