1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro and this is a special bonus episode of 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: Family Secrets. This summer, the wonderful Nora mcinnerney, host of 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: the podcast Terrible Thanks For Asking, joined me for a 5 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: live taping of Family Secrets at Rizzoli Bookstore in New 6 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: York City. This is part two of our conversation. So, 7 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: so we're going to open it up to questions, and 8 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: there's a mic up here. Um, so anybody who has 9 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: a question should come up and kind of I know, 10 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: it's a little My favorite part of any event is 11 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: just the silence and then the mercy when someone stands 12 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: up and then you hope she's asking a question, but 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: maybe she just wants a sparkling water. Now she's gonna 14 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: ask a question. What angel Um. I'm a bit more 15 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: familiar with Danny life now there from There was Your Life, 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: nors m very ser loss Um. I was curious a 17 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: few years ago. I think there was a popular book 18 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: Calum Breath Becomes singer Um. I guess it's kind of 19 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: written from the other perspective where the doctor was very sick. 20 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: I think he may also had a bring tumor of 21 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: some sort. And what I'm wondering whether you read that 22 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: book and how does it make you feel, because it 23 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: is kind of from the opposite side. Um, When Breath, 24 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: When Breath becomes There is by Paul Colin Eathi and 25 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: or Calanthi and uh. He was He was a physician, 26 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: and I think he had lung cancer and very he 27 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: had all the cancers and he wrote a beautiful memoir 28 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: and his wife finished it, Lucy finished it for him. 29 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: And I could not read it for the longest time. 30 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: And I got maybe a hundred of them gifted to me, 31 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: people You're gonna love this book, and I was like, no, 32 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: I won't. I'll show you, No, I won't. I did 33 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: read it um eventually, and it was oddly comforting. It 34 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: was oddly comforting. Aaron had a very different personality than Paul. 35 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: Aaron was just but he was also so buoyant. Aaron 36 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: was just so happy and alive. And he always told 37 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: me like, this is okay. It's okay. Even when I 38 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: was bawling, like no, it's not you have a brain cancer. 39 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: He was like, it's okay, it's okay. And Paul's book 40 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: made me feel like maybe it really was and in it, 41 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: he writes this beautiful letter to his daughter, and I 42 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: remember being jealous when I read that, because I had 43 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: asked Aaron, do you want to write a letter to 44 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: our son or maybe a couple of letters, like maybe 45 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: you write one for his like sweet sixteen. I don't 46 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: know if boys even have one. Also, I didn't have one. 47 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: I grew up in the Midwest. I was like, do 48 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: I get a car? My dad was like, are you 49 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: on drugs? Like what? I was like, well, I've been 50 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: watching a lot of commercials. Um. But he writes this 51 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: beautiful letter to his daughter, and I remember asking Aaron 52 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: about that and he was like what No, he was 53 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: so uncomfortable, like what am I gonna write? Like, Hi, son, 54 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: Well I'm dead? And so he didn't. He didn't do that. 55 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: But I do think of my first book as as 56 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: that for Ralph, because I couldn't do that. But when 57 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: Breath Becomes airs as a very incredible book. It was 58 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: very comforting for me, but it was very resistant to 59 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: reading it. And whenever somebody is around somebody who's grieving 60 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: and they're like what should I do? What should I do? 61 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: I'm like, I mean, you can give him a book Um, 62 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: they might not read it, but it is a really 63 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: nice gesture. So if you're wondering what to get the 64 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: grieving person who has everything, not a hot dish, they've 65 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: got enough of those. Give him a book or a plant. 66 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: Not not your question, but you know it asked another question. 67 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: I just interviewed a guest for season two, The Family Secrets. 68 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: It's launching in late August, and it's um, someone who's 69 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: whose wife recently passed away, and the secret involves that 70 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: they chose not to tell their their their children that 71 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: she was dying, and they're quite grown children. But she 72 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: talked about the way that she didn't want the casseroles, 73 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: like she just did not want that. She wanted to 74 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: be the bringer of the casseroles, not the receiver of 75 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: the casseroles. And um, it's funny the way I mean funny, 76 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: but the way that casseroles and hot dishes have become 77 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: like the symbol of all illness and what you know, 78 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: people want to do something right, they want to they 79 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: want to cook, they want to do they want to 80 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: do something, and they don't know what to do. Yeah, 81 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: I mean, food is helpful, but at the time I 82 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: was I was not eating casserole. I was eating like 83 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: a five pound bag of sour Patch kids, and that's 84 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: hard to like. It's hard to express someone that can 85 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: we bring something? I'm like, yeah, you can bring like, um, 86 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: I don't like a twelve pack of coke would be nice. Uh, 87 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: bag of taco bell. Actually someone did deliver taco bell. 88 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: That was a lovely gift. So. I just recently discovered 89 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: both your podcasts and I love them both. And I 90 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: am in complete agreement with Nora that you really should 91 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: if you had like a podcast where you just spoke quietly, 92 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: I'd probably could fall asleep to it. You have an 93 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: amazing SMR obviously, I was actually gonna stay in the 94 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: shapiro a SMR YouTube channel check it out later. I would, yes, 95 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: for people don't know what SMR is. It just people 96 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: talking really quietly and tapping and tapping their nails, and 97 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: you could just be like I'm Danny Shapira and I'm 98 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: an open a plastic selfing bag. Yeah I would. I 99 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: would download it. I'm already subscribed to exactly UM. So 100 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: I love both of your podcasts. I Uh. There are 101 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: certain ones though, where I see um, I see the 102 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: description before and I'm like, I don't know if I 103 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: can listen to it quite yet, because they can be 104 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: pretty intense. Was there one of your podcasts, one of 105 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: your episodes that was the hardest, really the most difficult 106 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: for you to do? I would I would say in 107 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: the first season it was the episode UM that's called 108 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: Band of Men. Um. I had been contacted a number 109 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,119 Speaker 1: of years earlier by Um, a man who had gone 110 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: to the same high school as me. UM, and I 111 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: didn't know him. He was a couple of years younger 112 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: than than I was, so we hadn't been in each 113 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: other's social circles. But it had turned out that he 114 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: was one of a really significant number of boys who 115 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: was sexually abused by a very charismatic social studies teacher 116 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: slash boy Scouts leader slash you know, wilderness counselor in 117 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: the at the camp all the boys went to. He 118 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: was just a complete groomer of of boys of a 119 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: very young age, sort of ages ten to twelve. And 120 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: he had come to me years earlier because he knew 121 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: that I was a writer and that I knew a 122 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: lot of writers in journalists and maybe I could help 123 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: him get the story out. And I had tried. I 124 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: spoke with a friend of mine at sixty minutes. I 125 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: really wanted to help these guys be able to tell 126 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: their story. The school was behaving badly. It was just 127 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: a very upsetting, infuriating story, and I wasn't able to 128 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: because the school was like a nice private school in 129 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: New Jersey. But it wasn't St. Paul's, you know, it 130 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: wasn't horas Man. There had already been these stories. There 131 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: was like enough boy abuse stories out there apparently, So 132 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: when I was launching Family Secrets, I approached him and 133 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: I said, I think I do have a way of 134 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: getting your story out, um. But it was an extremely 135 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: emotional interview. That was one of the ones that I 136 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: did in my son's old playroom with the with the 137 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,119 Speaker 1: stuff hippopotamus and the and there was something about seeing 138 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: it's actually in my introduction to that episode, being in 139 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: this boy's playroom, you know, as his mom and thinking 140 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: about this this long ago boy who had just been 141 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: through this horrific, horrific I mean, I think I think 142 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: we spent two and a half hours on that particular 143 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: conversation interview, you know, to ultimately kind of carve of 144 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: it the story that needed to be told, but it was. 145 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: And then the more that I knew about it, the 146 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: more that I realized how many of those boys I 147 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: had known, you know, as as a kid. So I 148 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: had a very it was personal. The episode that I 149 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: was thinking of was actually very, very similar. I interviewed 150 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: this woman named Rachel and she was a victim of 151 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: Larry Nasser's and she didn't even know it, like she 152 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: was one of the she was one of the girls 153 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: who had defended him, essentially, and was like, what are 154 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: you talking about? And that was also a two and 155 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: a half hour conversation, and then it was several hours 156 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: of me transcribing and like listening to it over and 157 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: over while I was on winter break with my kids, 158 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: and and then also just looking around me at just 159 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: all of the ways that that that girls are discredited 160 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: and that they're sort of hyper sexualized in ways that 161 00:08:53,960 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: you don't even necessarily think about. Um, yeah, that was 162 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: That was a really great winter break. I think I 163 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: sat in a room and cried for like half a day, 164 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: and the kids were like, is she okay? My husband 165 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: was like, oh, she's great, Yeah, she'll be out. And 166 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 1: then um, there's an episode in the first season called Semperify, 167 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: and it's about It started with with my dad. My 168 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: dad was a marine in Vietnam and he had left 169 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: a comment on like the Virtual Vietnam. While you can 170 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: leave a you can leave a comment on the memorial 171 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: for somebody. And I was trying to piece together the 172 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: stories that my dad had told me about his time 173 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: in Vietnam. There were not many, but for some reason 174 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: he told them to me. My brothers were like, well, 175 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: I didn't, so I had nobody to like compare them too. 176 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: And I went to the Marine Corps reunion that my 177 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: dad had never gone to. I got in touch with 178 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: all these guys that my dad was looking for. They 179 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: were looking for him, but I mean it was nine. 180 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: They all spelled each other's names wrong, by the way, 181 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: like on the back of on the back of the 182 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: three photos they had. And so I found these guys 183 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: and I went to this reunion and I figured out 184 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: the story that I was thinking about. And also I 185 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: just spent hours talking to these men that everybody had 186 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: told me would not talk to me. And they sat 187 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: in a hotel room with me and with my producer 188 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: Hans holding his arms up like this with a with 189 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: a mic he sat there for five hours silently while 190 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: I just wept, and they wept, not even necessarily about 191 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: the story that I was there for. And I just 192 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: felt like this immense sense of everything that my dad 193 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: had gone through and everything that he had he had 194 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: carried and never told us about. And I just felt 195 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: really heavy and wrung out. And I was also secretly 196 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: pregnant and um, and I just remember going back to 197 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 1: my hotel and helped my hotel room night after night. 198 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: We're there for four days, and just crying so hard 199 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: that my head hurts, and putting that episode together, crying 200 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: in the studio with Hans and and and crying as 201 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: we got a letter from the man who's at the 202 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: center of the story of boy who's at the center 203 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: of the story, the boy who died in this worthless way, 204 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: and all of these men looking at me and telling 205 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: me that they would go back because you have to 206 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: tell yourself it was worth it. You have to. And 207 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,719 Speaker 1: I got a letter from his family afterwards, after the 208 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: episode came out that said thank you, and I will 209 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: go home and ball about that tonight. To put that 210 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: episode is just very um. That's probably the most important 211 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: one to me. And also the hardest to make. Yeah, 212 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: we're going to pause for a moment. Hey, it's really 213 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: cool to see you guys in person. Um So, kind 214 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: of on the note of what you were just talking about, 215 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: you both have children, Can you talk about how your 216 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: work and your family co exist? More like how how 217 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: do you make those episodes? And then turned back to 218 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: your kid? Oh there, you know husband? Remember should we 219 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: have your son? Answered this one? Yeah, hey, Jacob, where 220 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: are you? My son's here somewhere. Um, you can stay there, 221 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: It's okay. So so my my my kid is now 222 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 1: you know, a young man. Um So it feels a 223 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: little bit different now. But throughout my writing life, much 224 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: of which coincided with his childhood, I had to find 225 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: a way to go to these places that were scary, dark, painful, 226 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: and not have them enveloped me. So I found myself 227 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: almost visualizing it as a place inside of me where 228 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: I could go that was small, and that when I 229 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: would go there, it would expand and it would become 230 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: the whole world. And then I could be in that 231 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: world and swim around in that world and do whatever 232 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: I needed to do in that world. Um. But then 233 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: when I needed to leave that world, I could almost 234 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: like a deep sea diver, like just push up from 235 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: it and it would contract again and it would be 236 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: there waiting for me. And it wasn't like it wasn't 237 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: something that I was feeling all the time. But it 238 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: was kind of contained. It didn't take me over, um, 239 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: and you know, so I could be you know, me 240 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 1: as a mom and make lunch and put dinner on 241 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: the table, and help with homework and and be in. 242 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: I very acutely did not want to miss my family's 243 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: life as a young family. I had this feeling I'd 244 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: seen it too many times of just and and all 245 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: the truisms that people say it goes by so fast. 246 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: I mean it doesn't. It doesn't you know that the 247 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: days are long and the years are short. Um. But 248 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't want to miss it. I didn't 249 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: want to look back. I was driven by not wanting 250 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: to look back and thinking, you know, I just I 251 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: missed it. I was too focused on, you know, my 252 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: my work, because my work is incredibly important to me 253 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: and I had big, um creative ambitions for it. But 254 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: I also had this opportunity to have this beautiful family 255 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: life that I wanted to have, So I I was 256 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: always kind of like even an example would be I 257 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: realized early on, uh, I was always a morning writer, 258 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: and if I didn't get to work first thing in 259 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: the morning, if I didn't roll out of bed and 260 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: get to work, then the work wouldn't happen. But now 261 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: I had a kid, so there was something definitely in 262 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: the way between rolling and bed and getting to work. 263 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: There was all sorts of other things that had to 264 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: happen to have his day get started. And and I 265 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: didn't want to just zone out on it and be 266 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: like the sort of did I get up? Did I 267 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: you know, like what has happened? Um? And so I 268 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: learned to like find a pause button, like to be 269 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: able to actually be like, all right, I'm I'm going 270 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: to be able to get up and be present and 271 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: you know, make the eggs and pack the lunch box 272 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: and drive to school and come back and then and 273 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: then I can stop the pause button and start and 274 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: start the day again. Um. Which was something that I 275 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: learned how to do out of necessity. Wasn't something that 276 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: I knew how to do, but I but I learned 277 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: how to do it. And I also became much more 278 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: resourceful in terms of um my time, Like, if I 279 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: had an hour, I used the hour. If I had 280 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: two hours, I used Like. The worst thing for me 281 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: was feeling like, Wow, I had that time, and I 282 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: just frittered it away because I got in my own 283 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: way and my resistance and my frustration got the better 284 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: of me. And then and then I learned that if 285 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: I did that, i'd really like be so mad at 286 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: myself at the end of the day that I wouldn't 287 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: want to be me. So I learned how to kind 288 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: of do end runs around that kind of experience. This 289 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: event was supposed to be on Wednesday night, and then 290 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: I realized that um kindergarten graduation is Wednesday, and I 291 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: don't let you know these things. They don't let you know. 292 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, what it feels like this could have gotten 293 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: on the calendar a little sooner. Also, do I read 294 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: all the emails? No, okay, I don't. We get a 295 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: lot of them. Um, and Danny was like, we'll figure 296 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: it out. So I know that I know that you 297 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: were that kind of mom, because you were awesome about that. Well. 298 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: I remember there's a annual writer's conference called a w 299 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: P and and it was I think some year when 300 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: my son was little. It was in maybe Washington, d C. 301 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: And I was supposed to be on a panel about 302 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: motherhood and writing. And on the morning that I was 303 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: supposed to head to d C from my panel on 304 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: motherhood and writing, there was a blizzard in Connecticut and 305 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: so snow day was called and I couldn't go to 306 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: the panel on motherhood and writing, which was an object 307 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: lesson in motherhood and writing. Yeah, it really is. Um 308 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: I I've not always been that intentional and I I 309 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: mean I went to work two days after I had 310 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: a baby. Part of it that was EP D and 311 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: PP and part of it was just like, oh my gosh, 312 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: are they gonna not, you know, support this if I 313 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: don't like, get right back to work. And also part 314 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,239 Speaker 1: of it was I just I felt so attached to 315 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: the thing that I was making I didn't feel like 316 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: I could stop. And we have a two year old, 317 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: a six year old, a twelve year old, and a 318 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: seventeen year old. That's a wide range of humanity. And 319 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: because the older kids are newer to me, I really 320 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: don't want to miss anything about their lives. I want 321 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: to be there for middle school, I want to be 322 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: there for for high school stuff. Also it's just frankly 323 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 1: more interesting than preschool stuff. I got to be honest, 324 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, so what's happening? Like, tell me everything? 325 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: Like Also, seventh graders feel like very superior to sixth 326 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: graders in a way that's fascinating to me. I'm like, 327 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: remember that was you last year? And she's like was it? 328 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: Like it was? Um so at first. And Also I'm 329 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: self employed. Everything that I do is is basically on 330 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: a freelance basis, and that means your day could end 331 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: never and my days were ever ending and I would 332 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: open my laptop at ten and the kids noticed, and 333 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: my husband definitely noticed, and that felt terrible. And now 334 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: I'm just very like I have the most strict routine 335 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: out of anybody. I go to bed so early, I 336 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: wake up early, I go to the gym with my 337 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: biggest kid. Then I write for two hours. You might 338 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: be wondering where the kids. My husband's taking care of them, Okay, 339 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: he's where a man belongs in the kitchen, making breakfast 340 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: for the kids, getting him ready for school. And then 341 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: my day ends at three, so I can be there, 342 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: um too, when I remember to pick them up, I 343 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: can be there, am I always know, but I took 344 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: I took like email off my phone. I don't. I 345 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: don't do this as much because they are so interesting 346 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: and also if it's that urgent, maybe it's um like 347 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: a better be life or death at this point, which 348 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: I love. Like younger people, all the youths who are 349 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: like in their twenties, they just won't work like that. 350 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: They just will not. They're like, oh no, I don't 351 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: I'm not going to check my email at night, Like whoa, 352 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: look at those boundaries. It's bonkers. But when I was four, 353 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: I was like, I will do whatever you want. You 354 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: want me to come to your house and feed your 355 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: hamster for no money, boss, I'm there. True story. It's 356 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: like oh yeah, no, I mean it's a two hour 357 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: train ride, but yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it. 358 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: And like kids now in their twenties, like even early thirties, 359 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 1: they're like, oh no, I don't do that. No, I'm sorry. 360 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: I go to yoga that night. It's amazing. It's amazing. 361 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: Be like these gen zers there, they really they got 362 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: to figure it out. It's because their their parents sent 363 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: them to therapy. So uh, I was just wondering what 364 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: podcasts you guys listened to I listened to, Okay, my 365 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: favorite podcast is Who Weekly because it is pop culture 366 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: candy for me. It's everything you need to know about 367 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: the celebrities you don't so, you know, you always pick 368 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: up like an US weekly and you're like, who what 369 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: is this about? And it's two writers who I think 370 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: used to work for New York Magazine, Lindsay Weber Bobby Finger. 371 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: They're so funny and they just it's it's basically an 372 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: analysis of the celebrity industrial complex, where like everybody is 373 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: famous now, um, and you can't figure out why. And 374 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: it's not mean, but it's very, very, very funny, and 375 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: it comes out on Tuesdays and Fridays. And I also 376 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: listened to You Call Your Girlfriend. Those are the two 377 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: that I listened to every episode every week. And also 378 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: Forever thirty five podcast about the things we do to 379 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: take care of ourselves. And I listen to I Just, 380 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: I Just We're back on the jet ski Guys. I'm 381 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: literally flipping through the on my phone. I really I 382 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: try to listen to podcasts that I would never make, 383 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: if that makes sense, because they're just so they're so 384 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: different from what I do. They like, they just sit 385 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: down and talk and just like, I don't know if 386 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: you're this way, But if I'm writing a memoir, I 387 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: can't read any memoirs. I really can't. And if I'm 388 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: uh writing a novel, of which I've I've done one 389 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: in progress, Well that's not a good example because I 390 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: guess all I read is novels right now. But if 391 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of creating podcasts a podcast, I 392 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: can't listen to podcasts that are similar to mine. But 393 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: when I'm not, then I listened to sad narrative podcasts. Yeah, 394 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: I would say that's true for me too. I actually 395 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: stopped listening to Terrible Things for Asking while I was 396 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: making Season one of Family Secrets because what is that 397 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: dip in my DNA alright down by one? Because it 398 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: felt like, um, you know, in in writing, there's you know, 399 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: we talk a lot about voice, and I stay away 400 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: from work that feels that it could sort of seep 401 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: into my voice in some way. Um, And that's usually 402 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: work that has some kind of overlap or similarity. One 403 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: podcast I've consistently listened to is Heavyweight. Um. Yes, jeez, Louise, 404 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: just it's really really good storytelling. Um. See some nodding heads. Yeah, 405 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: I can tell you also the ones that I tend 406 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: to kind of shy away from our like, you know, 407 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: two girls sitting around talking, you know, like just the 408 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: the kind of loose banter that doesn't really feel like 409 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: it's about anything. I'm not naming names, but I just 410 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: there's just a feeling of like just overhearing something that's 411 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: happening at the next table in the restaurant when you're 412 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: bored and you're waiting for your dinner companion, and just 413 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: it's just people talking. And I think it's because you 414 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: and I both spend so much time creating something that 415 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: feels that's very that's very produced, that I tend to 416 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: gravitate more towards those. But I also have been really 417 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: enjoying the limited series, you know, the I loved um 418 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: the the dropout, you know, as did a lot of people. 419 00:22:54,080 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: It was just just just I just wanted to well, 420 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: that was so completely freaky. I mean, not really a 421 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: spoiler alert if any of you haven't listened to it, 422 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: but her her voice, um, Elizabeth's Holmes. Yeah, are you 423 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: talking about my voice? Question about my voice? Is it fake? 424 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 1: Your voice was made up? Voice? Is made up and 425 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 1: it sounds it sounds like this, and it's like, how 426 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: do you not know that she was doing a voice disguise? 427 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: It sounds like when your brother's voice is not changed 428 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: and he tries to answer the phone Hello, but you're 429 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: like really hearing the pathology like in action. And I 430 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: preferred listening to it as a podcast then watching UM, 431 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: the documentary about I guess was better. That's why. And 432 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: as sort of a follow up to that, what kind 433 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: of books do you like to read while you're actually writing? 434 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: And it can be either when you're writing memoirs or 435 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: when you're writing fiction or non fiction. I have so 436 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: many piles of different books for different um for different reasons. 437 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: I mean like I'm entering a period of time right 438 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: now where I feel like I can read for pleasure 439 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: UM in a way that I haven't been able to 440 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: do in a while, Like there's just a break in 441 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: my UM. Because when you're a writer and you're on tour, 442 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: as I have been since January, I will often be 443 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: reading the books of people that I'm doing events with, 444 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: and sometimes they're really pleasurable, but they're not necessarily the 445 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: books that I would pick up and say this is 446 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: what I want to read next. I um just started 447 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: a beautiful novel, UM first novel debut called UM Disappearing 448 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: Country by Julia phillips Um. That's been getting really gorgeous reviews. 449 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: I dip into, Oh, I'm reading Sally Rooney's Normal People 450 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: so good. It's just so good. Um. I love great writing, 451 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: and I can't read for story if the writing isn't beautiful. 452 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: And I can forgive a lot when it comes to 453 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: story if the writing is beautiful and I just fall 454 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: into it and I just want to be there. I 455 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: want to kind of be in in those sentences. Um, 456 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: what else I I lose? They go like titles go 457 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: right over my head. If I'm writing memoir, then I 458 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: mainly just want to read old books that I've already read. 459 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: So The Loved One, Evelyn Wis, all these all these 460 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: books that like you read when you were seventeen or sixteen, 461 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: and you're like, I bet that was a really good 462 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: book and I was just reading it to get to 463 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: the you know, ap English final. Um. And if I'm 464 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 1: writing the podcast and I'm just reading novels that's all 465 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: I've been reading lately, I can forgive basically anything like, 466 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just reading just to like have fun 467 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: and be alone. And I read every single day and 468 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: I read normal People and it made me really sad. 469 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: I was like, wow, this is about how much I 470 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: hated myself in my twenties. Uh. And I just read Ghosted, 471 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: which was very absorbing. Absorbing. It's a new word, the 472 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: only here here. Um, it's a really it's a good story. 473 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: It's a really good story. And I'm reading Red White 474 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: and Royal Blue. Ah, I novel about the that the 475 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: first son falling in love with the Prince of England. 476 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 1: What would happen? We'll find out do they hate each other? 477 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: It's like a classic rom com, only with uh, gay 478 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: teenage boys. It's wonderful. Well, you know you're you're reminding 479 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,479 Speaker 1: me too, I am. So. I've been producing season two 480 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: of Family Secrets, and and probably we should rename Season 481 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: two of Family Secrets Writers with Family Secrets, because eight 482 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: out of ten of my guests are writers. Um and um, 483 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: so I've been I've been reading their books in preparation 484 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: and uh, well, one of them, I was familiar with 485 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: his very familiar with his work, and um just thought 486 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: he would have a lot to say about shame and secrecy, 487 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: shame being the thing that's always kind of thrumming underneath 488 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: anything that's secret, and that's u. K. S. A. Lehman. 489 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: His memoir Heavy, So he's one of the guests and 490 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: is a beautiful book that he's a memoir, but he 491 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: addresses it to his mother, so it's in the in 492 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: the in the second person, in the you voice. There's 493 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: also a wonderful memoir that just came out recently, and 494 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: she's also going to be a guest on season two. 495 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: Her name is Brigette M. Davis and the books called 496 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: the World according to Fannie Davis. Her mother Fannie Davis. 497 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: Brigette was raised in Detroit in the sixties and seventies 498 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: and her mother was a numbers runner and that's how 499 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: she supported her family. And it's just this fantastic story 500 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: of like a family keeping the mother's secrets and um. 501 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: So that like I have a lot of books that 502 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: have just there's like scribbled in the margins and everywhere 503 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: with I was actually going to be on a panel 504 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: with Brigette, and so I was reading her book in 505 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: preparation for being on the panel. And as soon as 506 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: I started reading her book. I was like, oh, and 507 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: she was amazing. Hi. I want to thank you guys 508 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: so much. Um. So, I am donor conceived. I found 509 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: out via DNA testing little over a year and a 510 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: half ago. Um And I also um in my career, 511 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: I worked in Alzheimer's care and hospice. I actually had 512 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: a client who was about thirty five with young children 513 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: died of a brain cancer. UM. So, kind of my 514 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: question is is when I found out I was donor conceived, 515 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: there were other big stresses going on in my life. 516 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: There were some family mental breakdowns, there were marriage issues. 517 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: I had just had a baby, I had a toddler. Um. 518 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: You know, so there was a lot going on, a 519 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: lot um and it's very difficult for people to understand 520 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: like intense trauma. Um And so my question for both 521 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: of you having been through these kind of unimaginable thing 522 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 1: after saying after saying within a short period of time 523 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: where it's people don't understand it, or people are just 524 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: kind of tired of it, or people just think it's 525 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: negative when it's really like processing, what do you see 526 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: as the state of kind of empathy in our society? Like, 527 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: what do you see as maybe kind of like your 528 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: role in that um and kind of educating people, because 529 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: that's something I like to write about in my kind 530 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: of donor conception advocacy. A lot is you know, kind 531 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: of trauma recovery and how we kind of process these 532 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: things and kind of normal and how human it is. 533 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: So I'm wondering what your perspectives are having been through 534 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: those things and also being public figures who have podcasts 535 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: and books, like what you see from people in your 536 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: personal life and also what you see from from talking 537 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: with people in the general public about those things. Those 538 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: are great. Those are really great questions and um ones 539 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: that I feel like I've been grappling with really intensely 540 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: in the last and the last just in the last 541 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: few years. I Mean you'd think I would say I've 542 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: been grappling with them all my life as a writer, 543 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: but it really feels much more intense in the last 544 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: few years. And one of the things about writing Inheritance, 545 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: which was something that I knew that I had to 546 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: do almost instantly. I mean, I made this discovery and 547 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: I started thinking about how I was going to process 548 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: it in language, because that's how I process everything, and 549 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: I need to be able to find the shape and 550 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: the language for it or else I'm not going to 551 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: understand it um And but I also knew that it 552 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: was an experience that wasn't going to be a slam 553 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: dunk in terms of people's empathic response, because it was 554 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: something out side of the realm of what what people 555 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: have thought about. So I had written other books in 556 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: which you know, my son was sick as a baby, Well, 557 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: we understand that, you know, anybody's going to have some 558 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: empathy for that. My my dad died in a car accident. 559 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: We understand that we don't have to have been through 560 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: those experiences, but we think, like, wow, I know, I know, 561 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: I can imagine how I would feel if I had 562 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: a childhoo was sick, or I can imagine how I 563 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: would feel if I lost a parent in that way. 564 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: But try out, I'm fifty four years old, and I'd 565 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: take a DNA test and I discovered that the dad 566 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: who raised me wasn't my dad, and that actually I 567 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: was conceived by a sperm donor. Is like, what what 568 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: would that be? And and you know, and then there 569 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: are people like it's one of the reasons why I 570 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: don't read, like read or comments on things, because there's 571 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: like like a version of wow, wow, wow, Like what 572 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: is a big deal? I mean, so what, She's had 573 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: a great life, She's here, isn't she She should be 574 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: pleased at this terrific you know, turn of events, and 575 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: and you know who cares Like it's like get over it. 576 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: It's like one or under the bridge. And I knew 577 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: that in the writing of it that I had to 578 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: actually aim for and think about what was universal about 579 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: my experience, which is not something I've ever had to 580 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: do as a writer. It's something that I would counsel 581 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: people against doing because it makes you sort of self conscious, 582 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: like what's universal about my experience? But I had to 583 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: and I and I so I found myself thinking what 584 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: am I learning about identity? What am I learning about 585 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: what makes a father a father? What am I learning 586 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: about nature and nurture? That I can find a way 587 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: to impart so that I can connect with the reader, 588 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: um and and like push the reader toward, provoke the 589 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: reader toward a kind of understanding of Oh I see wow, 590 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: that would be really complicated to make sense, really provoking empathy, 591 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: which is what I felt like I had to be 592 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:14,719 Speaker 1: doing in this case. Um, everything that we do is 593 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: aimed around empathy versus pity. It's a huge distinction for 594 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: the show. It's a huge distinction for uh, what we 595 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: do with Still Kicking, what we do with the Hot 596 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: Young Widows Club, which is a real group that I have, 597 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: which is that nobody needs you to feel bad for them, 598 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: but there are plenty of ways to do that, and 599 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: pity is like the cheapest emotion we have. That's why 600 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: we're so generous with it. We're just like, you can 601 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: have some you can I can feel bad for literally anyone. 602 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: I'm so good at it. But empathy does require imagination, 603 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: and most people really are not that imaginative. It takes 604 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: a lot of energy to be empathetic. So the stories 605 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: that we look at on our show are really meant 606 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: to stretch that I really meant to. We listen to 607 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: it as we're writing it, and we listen to it 608 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: as as an unempathetic person, and when we do group 609 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: listens for the draft episodes, we say like, well, okay, 610 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: so why wouldn't this be a thing. And some of 611 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: the narration is meant to cut those reflexes off from 612 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: the listener and to say, like, I know that you 613 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: might be thinking this, but think about it this way, 614 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: because I do want to create episodes that that can 615 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: be helpful for other people, and that can help other 616 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: people help the people around them stretched so that you 617 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: who feel very, very beleaguered by trying to bring everyone 618 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: in your life along with you and this thing that 619 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: they think is too sad, have something to show that's like, look, 620 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,959 Speaker 1: it's not just me, Look this is this is this 621 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: is something that a lot of people feel. So listen 622 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,719 Speaker 1: to this. Think of it this way. So we've had 623 00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: a lot of I mean, it's easy to feel You 624 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: can feel ad for somebody who as a has a 625 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: has a dead baby. You can feel bad for somebody 626 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: who has a has a dead husband. But can you 627 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: feel for someone who has a more complicated story, Because 628 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: the thing is all of those stories are always more complicated. 629 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: But it's it's hard for you, like on the personal level, 630 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: Like it is hard when people don't get it. And 631 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: what I would say to you and to anybody here, 632 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people in your life just won't. And 633 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: so if you can take that off your plate. You 634 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: are not here to make everybody understand absolutely everything that 635 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: you feel. It's impossible to do. That is going to 636 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: free up a lot of anguish for you. Yeah, it 637 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: strikes me to listening to you that pity is something 638 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: that separates, right Like, if I am pitying you, it 639 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: means that I'm on one side of this divide and 640 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: you're on the other side. Um, if I'm pitying, it 641 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: means you're pitiable and I'm not. And empathy has to 642 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: do us. We are all in this together. This could 643 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: be you, this could be me, this could be any 644 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: one of us at any given moment, and we are 645 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: all always, you know, always in that place. Um. And 646 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: I think empathy comes from that understanding, even when it's 647 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: and and and know there will be failures of empathy constantly. 648 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: But when you're describing what you do in the scripts 649 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: and in the voiceover in your show, is precisely what 650 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: I was talking about earlier when I when I described 651 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: trying to hold a story, it's it's you know, it's 652 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: your job, and it's my job as a host of 653 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: a show like this to say, wait a minute, Um, 654 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: We're gonna turn this a little bit here. I'm gonna 655 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: get inside of your head, listener, and I know what 656 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: you're thinking, but here's here's a pivot. Here's another way 657 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: of looking at it, And that's that's that's the holding 658 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: I think of this kind of work, and I think 659 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: a lack of empathy comes from this need to compare 660 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: your story against somebody else's, which is a really sort 661 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: of reflexive thing that people do. Right, Like, well, I mean, 662 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: at least the dad you had was pretty good, right, 663 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: so when we at least each other, when we just 664 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: each other, all of these things that sort of minimize 665 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: the experience that you don't even think that they do, 666 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 1: but they do. It immediately shuts off your capability for empathy. 667 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: So some of the stories that we pick, our stories 668 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: that you might not think of as that terrible, right, 669 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: um is is having a stutter that terrible? Well, if 670 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: it's the biggest thing in your life, if it has 671 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: kept you separate from the life that you want to 672 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: live and from connecting with people the way you want to, yeah, 673 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 1: it is. And nobody benefits from this sort of comparison 674 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: of this is better or this is worse. Nobody like 675 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 1: when you're the person trying to sort of hold your 676 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: terrible thing up above somebody else's, Like, does that make 677 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: you feel better? Not? Usually? Not? Usually So that concludes 678 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: my answer. Do you think of podcasting as a new 679 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: community that you're building? Because I find that we're all 680 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: creating conversations. Now it used to be like what you 681 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: heard on Oprah? And now it's like, oh, did you 682 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: hear the story on you know, such and such a podcast? 683 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: That it's creating conversation and community and conversations around grief 684 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: and empathy. Like do you do you think about that 685 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: as you're creating because I find it on the other 686 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: end as a listener that it's happening more in conversation, 687 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,720 Speaker 1: that we're creating community around being able to open conversations 688 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: based on topics. I mean, I think I've come to 689 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,919 Speaker 1: understand that as I've been making family secrets, and also 690 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: as I've been on tour for Inheritance, and I realized 691 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: that my events start becoming sort of de factove support 692 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: groups for people. People have come to my events and 693 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: then people help them discover their biological fathers. I mean, 694 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: all sorts of astounding things have happened because people are 695 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: gathering and we want to gather, you know, we want 696 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: to gather. We're hungry for gathering because we feel I think, 697 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: you know, so many of us so isolated by this, 698 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, and by you know, being working remotely or 699 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:20,439 Speaker 1: constantly being on our devices. UM. In this season, as 700 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: we're leading up to season two of Family Secrets, UM, 701 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: my producers made an eight hundred number especially eight eight 702 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 1: eight secret zero where UM where listeners can actually call 703 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: in and anonymously tell their own secrets. And I love 704 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 1: them too. At first, I thought, really, and and it's 705 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: it's this is fantastic thing because I think that sense 706 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: of piercing aloneness, especially when it comes to emotions that 707 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: make us feel alone. We feel alone when we grieve 708 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: so alone, we feel alone when um, we are the 709 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: keeper of a secret or a secret has been kept 710 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 1: from us UM and then when it gets revealed, you know, 711 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: week after week, when there's you know, these kinds of 712 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: conversations that are kind of exploding some of the shame 713 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: and isolation surrounding like these kinds of stories. I think 714 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: that that's part of what's creating community, because it's people 715 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: even if they're listening to these podcasts alone in their 716 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: cars or late at night, or you know, when they're 717 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: by themselves, there's a sense of oh, I'm not alone. 718 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: I'm not alone I'm not alone. And then and then 719 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: that I think does start to really build, um, build 720 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,280 Speaker 1: something of a community. I don't know if it's unique 721 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: to podcasting. I think just the intersection of Internet and 722 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: making something just creates more opportunity for fandom and for 723 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 1: and for people who like something to gather around something 724 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,839 Speaker 1: that that they enjoy. So I think that you kind 725 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: of find this around anything people like enough. Yeah, so um, 726 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 1: the compliment that we're just paid is, well, people seem 727 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: more comfortable. You're creating a language around these hard things. 728 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: And I think I'm I'm just saying a lot of 729 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 1: things that have been said by a lot of different people. 730 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: I don't think I've said literally anything original, um, in 731 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: my entire life. Possibly I don't want to yet I 732 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: don't think so. Um all there's nothing new under this on. 733 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: Everything has been, Everything has been said. People have always 734 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: been dying. Um, it felt like my husband was the 735 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 1: first to die, but in fact my mom's was I'm 736 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,399 Speaker 1: just kidding. Uh and uh yeah, So I think I'm 737 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: just saying things louder and in a different way and 738 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: in a newer medium. But and and also I can't 739 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: take all the credit, and I don't think podcasting can 740 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 1: take all the credit for that. But I do think 741 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 1: that also because that question asked another question, which is, 742 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: every single time I do any events, someone's like, I 743 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 1: wanted to write a book about my husband dying, but 744 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,839 Speaker 1: you did it. I didn't write a book about your 745 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: husband dying. Go write your own book, Go make your 746 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: own podcast, Go tell your own story, whatever it is, 747 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: because it's yours. And that's that's the difference between all 748 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 1: of this is like it is yours and the people 749 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: around you, strangers, they need to hear how you are 750 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: getting through, whatever you're getting through. And because every single yes, 751 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: the stories of grief, stories of war, stories of you know, 752 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: love and loss and heartbreak, um, you know they've they've 753 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: all been told. There is there is no new story 754 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: under the sun. But every single telling of a story 755 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: is its own individual snowflake of a story. Always. Otherwise 756 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: we'd be done, you know, we'd be done. We'd be 757 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: done with literature, we'd be done with art. We've been done. 758 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: You can still write that Devil's Where product book. I 759 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: am going to you because you know there's Hamster in 760 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: that book. There there is room for a whole another 761 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: boss and a whole another young woman showing up in 762 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: New York. Yeah, thank you, Maybe it will, but that 763 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: that really is I mean, I can't tell you how 764 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: often I hear that from students. It's like, Oh, it's 765 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,919 Speaker 1: it's diversion of answering yourself to say, oh, that's been done, 766 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: so I can't do it. And was that. I think 767 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: that this concludes. I'd like to thank Resoli Bookstore for 768 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 1: hosting the live taping of Family Secrets and Derrek Clemens 769 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: for recording it. And i'd like to thank Nora mcinnerney. 770 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: If you haven't already, be sure to check out and 771 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:39,720 Speaker 1: subscribe to her podcast, Terrible Thanks for asking. Family Secrets 772 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: is an i Heeart Media production. For more podcasts for 773 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 774 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.