Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and welcome to next question.
Speaker 1: Who Am I? That's considered life's most fundamental question, and
Speaker 1: it's quickly followed by where do I come from? Sure
Speaker 1: both are somewhat philosophical, but in the age of rampant
Speaker 1: home DNA test kids, those questions have become something more
Speaker 1: big business. More than twenty six million people around the
Speaker 1: world have turned to home ancestry or DNA tests hoping
Speaker 1: to find out who they really are. The simple test
Speaker 1: connected her with the mom she had never met, a
Speaker 1: reunion for a mom and her son after nearly three
Speaker 1: decades apart. Her sisters, born fifteen months apart and adopted
Speaker 1: at birth, never knew each other existed until these DNA
Speaker 1: tests incredibly popular. But what happens when the news is
Speaker 1: more than we bargained for? Disturbing results, emotional fallout, and
Speaker 1: even privacy issues. So today my next question, what really
Speaker 1: makes us who we are? I think our sense of
Speaker 1: identity in the very beginning comes from the stories that
Speaker 1: were told about ourselves from the time that we can
Speaker 1: understand anything that's Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets, an
Speaker 1: intimate podcast that explores the power of untold Stories. Danny's
Speaker 1: also a prolific author, and the podcast was actually inspired
Speaker 1: by her latest book, Inheritance, a memoir of genealogy, paternity,
Speaker 1: and love. And the story that I was told was
Speaker 1: that I was the youngest grandchild of this illustrious grandfather
Speaker 1: and grandmother. Central to Danny's identity was her Judaism. She
Speaker 1: spoke Hebrew and also her bond with her father, the
Speaker 1: head of a distinguished Orthodox family, And there was this
Speaker 1: family history that was something to be very proud of. Um.
Speaker 1: And yet there was this sense that I had as
Speaker 1: a child of I don't fit in, I don't long
Speaker 1: and I don't know why UM. And when you're a
Speaker 1: child and you have that feeling and you have nothing
Speaker 1: to connect it to the instinct, I think our impulse
Speaker 1: is to turn that against yourself. You know, there must
Speaker 1: be something wrong with me, because I don't feel like
Speaker 1: I belong and I should belong. Danny not only felt other,
Speaker 1: she looked other two. I looked like you know, Heidi
Speaker 1: had wandered, wandered over from the Alps into the Stuttle.
Speaker 1: You know, it was like, really, when you looked at
Speaker 1: a picture of me with all of my cousins. It
Speaker 1: was like, who doesn't belong in this picture? And it
Speaker 1: was me. But I managed to feel or to tell
Speaker 1: myself that this was some sort of just strange genetic
Speaker 1: quirk of faith that I just came out looking so
Speaker 1: completely different. There's a moment that I write about in
Speaker 1: my book where a friend of my parents who is
Speaker 1: an elderly or you know, a Holocaust survivor, was over
Speaker 1: at our house one day for Sabbath lunch and she
Speaker 1: patted me on the head said, this is actually Jared
Speaker 1: Kushner's grandmother. Um. She patted me on the head, Mrs Kushner,
Speaker 1: and she said, we could have used you in the camp.
Speaker 1: We could have used you in the ghetto, a little blondie.
Speaker 1: You could have gotten the spread from the Nazis. So
Speaker 1: that was literally the story of my childhood. And then
Speaker 1: when Danny was fifty four, she randomly decided to take
Speaker 1: a DNA test through ancestry dot com. My husband was
Speaker 1: taking his own DNA test recreationally, you know, really his
Speaker 1: his kind of like he smokes marijuana a little bit
Speaker 1: like that probably was even less um purpose. Um, his
Speaker 1: parents were elderly. I think he was doing it really
Speaker 1: to kind of connect with his dad, and he just
Speaker 1: asked me if I wanted to do one too. And
Speaker 1: I'm haunted by this today because I so easily could
Speaker 1: have said no. It was no big deal to me.
Speaker 1: I thought I knew everything about where I came from,
Speaker 1: but instead something it was inexpensive. It was no big deal.
Speaker 1: He was doing it, and I said sure and so
Speaker 1: and that's that's why there was no purpose or suspicion
Speaker 1: or anything. You got the results back and it showed
Speaker 1: you were fifty two percent Eastern European Ashkenazi, but the
Speaker 1: rest was a mixture of French, Irish, English and German. Initially,
Speaker 1: did you say they got my results mixed up with
Speaker 1: somebody else? I completely did. I. Um, I initially thought that,
Speaker 1: and I thought that for a while. Actually made my
Speaker 1: husband call ancestry dot com and get a supervisor on
Speaker 1: the phone, which is something that happens a great deal
Speaker 1: in those companies these days. Um. And he was told
Speaker 1: that those kinds of mistakes are never made, which I
Speaker 1: do think is true. UM. But yeah, no, I thought
Speaker 1: this is a mistake. And then you talked to your
Speaker 1: half sister, explain how I know she's a good bit
Speaker 1: older than you. Um, and this was your father's daughter
Speaker 1: from a previous marriage. Yes, so she's fifteen years older
Speaker 1: than I am. And I had recalled that she had
Speaker 1: mentioned at one point early on in the DNA testing
Speaker 1: world that she was an early adopter of it, and
Speaker 1: she had she had done it. So I reached out
Speaker 1: to her, actually really at my husband's very strong suggestion,
Speaker 1: because I was really just kind of sticking my fingers
Speaker 1: in my ears and going, la la, la, la la,
Speaker 1: there must be a reasonable explanation here. But so she
Speaker 1: sent her KIT number. It's what it's called her results.
Speaker 1: And there is a site called jet match where you
Speaker 1: can compare to kit numbers to see what your most
Speaker 1: recent common ancestor is, in other words, what what your
Speaker 1: level of genetic relationship is. And when that came back,
Speaker 1: and um, it was in this kind of foreign language
Speaker 1: that I didn't understand. My husband did. Um. It showed
Speaker 1: that we were not related in any way, shape or farm. Correct.
Speaker 1: We were not sisters, were not half sisters. We are
Speaker 1: most recent common ancestor was many generations earlier, which all
Speaker 1: people have. You and I would have it with your
Speaker 1: Jewish mother, you know, we we all would we all
Speaker 1: would have it. So you said, holy shit, I said,
Speaker 1: holy sh it. Um, I knew that it meant that
Speaker 1: if if we weren't sisters, that my father was either
Speaker 1: not my father or not her father. I knew it
Speaker 1: meant he wasn't my father. Everything the pieces of the
Speaker 1: puzzle clicked into place so quickly that there was just
Speaker 1: this sense of of course, of course, like all of them,
Speaker 1: from Mrs Kushner to the way that I felt that
Speaker 1: sense of otherness. Even within my shock, there was also
Speaker 1: this sort of backward looking sense of oh, my god,
Speaker 1: this makes perfect sense, so a bit of relief in
Speaker 1: a way. I didn't feel relief instantly. I felt um devastated.
Speaker 1: I adored my dad. And I also knew very quickly
Speaker 1: that it meant that I'm that my biological father. It
Speaker 1: must have been a sperm donor. I knew it wasn't
Speaker 1: that my mother had an affair. Why did you think that?
Speaker 1: Because I would have thought, oh, maybe it was the
Speaker 1: Swedish milkman. Yes, yeah, that would have been a completely
Speaker 1: reasonable If you're looking at these results, the first thought
Speaker 1: that most people would have would be my mother must
Speaker 1: have had an affair. I had just enough clues, which
Speaker 1: is miraculous to me when I think about it now.
Speaker 1: I had just enough clues to be able to piece
Speaker 1: it together. Danny knew that her parents had struggled to
Speaker 1: get pregnant, and that they had sought help at a
Speaker 1: fertility institute in Philadelphia, where her mom was artificially inseminated.
Speaker 1: But what Danny would come to find out after getting
Speaker 1: her DNA results is that the sperm that was used
Speaker 1: was not from her dad. It was from a donor.
Speaker 1: It sounds crazy now, but back then, when infertility was
Speaker 1: considered private and shameful, it was common practice to mix
Speaker 1: the father sperm with donor sperm. This allowed for at
Speaker 1: least the possibility of biological parenthood. Couples were told this
Speaker 1: as a treatment, and it will help boost your chances.
Speaker 1: There was always this sense that it was the child
Speaker 1: would never know anything. It was cloaked in secrecy. Parents
Speaker 1: who underwent any kind of UM donor you know, uh
Speaker 1: donor procedure would be told go home, never tell anyone,
Speaker 1: don't tell your own parents, don't tell your siblings, don't
Speaker 1: tell your friends. The child will never know. It's better
Speaker 1: for everyone that way, and there was every reason to
Speaker 1: believe that would be the case. No one at the
Speaker 1: time could have imagined that fifty years later, finding out
Speaker 1: the truth would be as easy as sending your spit
Speaker 1: to a lab and getting the results in a matter
Speaker 1: of weeks. Once Danny found out her shocking results, it
Speaker 1: took her only thirty six hours of googling before she
Speaker 1: was looking at YouTube videos of the man who was
Speaker 1: her biological father. It will stand, I think forever is
Speaker 1: the most surreal moment of my life. Um, the first
Speaker 1: so he's he's a retired physician and a medical ethicist,
Speaker 1: which of course is another bizarre chapter. I mean, you
Speaker 1: can't make can I curse on this? You can't make
Speaker 1: this ship up? You can't. I mean we already said
Speaker 1: holy ship, So why not a few more excell um?
Speaker 1: And he he lectures. He lives in the Pacific Northwest,
Speaker 1: and he lectures quite often, and so on this YouTube
Speaker 1: video he was giving a lecture on medical ethics. And
Speaker 1: what I noticed, and I notice is too subtle a
Speaker 1: word for what I sort of it's kind of like
Speaker 1: went into my blood stream, was that the way that
Speaker 1: he was gesturing with his hands, um, is how I
Speaker 1: ester with my hands. I'm doing it right now. It's
Speaker 1: how I speak when i'm speaking, especially when I'm speaking
Speaker 1: in public. And it was also extremely familiar to me.
Speaker 1: I lecture a lot, I stand behind lecterns, I run
Speaker 1: a Q and A. He was standing behind a lectern.
Speaker 1: He was running a Q and A, and I do
Speaker 1: look very very much like him. But that's not what
Speaker 1: I was noticing. I wasn't seeing myself in this seventy
Speaker 1: eight year old man, but I was seeing a quality
Speaker 1: of familiarity that I realized I had never seen before
Speaker 1: in my life. I mean, there was no question that
Speaker 1: this was that I came from him, and yet he
Speaker 1: was a complete stranger. So do you remember emotionally it
Speaker 1: must have been so complicated what you were experiencing as
Speaker 1: you watched him. Take us back to that moment. I
Speaker 1: was shaking from head to toe. Um, I felt ice cold.
Speaker 1: Um the room. I was in a hotel room in
Speaker 1: San Francisco, and the room felt like it was tilting in,
Speaker 1: like literally the ground was shifting. Um. I remember the
Speaker 1: feeling of walking into the bathroom for the first time
Speaker 1: after I had seen his face, and looking at my
Speaker 1: face in the mirror and suddenly seeing my face, the
Speaker 1: face that I had been looking for all those years
Speaker 1: as a little girl, always having the sense that there
Speaker 1: was something I wasn't seeing. I saw it there. It
Speaker 1: was um. It wasn't comforting, it was um deeply disturbing.
Speaker 1: I mean, I walked around in a state of um
Speaker 1: kind of dizziness and breathlessness for weeks. I would say,
Speaker 1: I mean the roots of my family tree that I
Speaker 1: had understood and that I've been confident about. I mean
Speaker 1: confident in the sense that we don't we don't think
Speaker 1: about what you know, we we we are who we are,
Speaker 1: we're told we come from who we come from, if
Speaker 1: we are, and and then that's that, and we just,
Speaker 1: you know, never really consider it ever again. And suddenly
Speaker 1: now there was this whole new world, There was this
Speaker 1: whole new story, and this was this was within me.
Speaker 1: I was the story. Danny wanted to meet her biological father,
Speaker 1: but she had to convince them. It was a delicate
Speaker 1: dance to get there. And I think ultimately one of
Speaker 1: the ways that we got there is that we were
Speaker 1: each respectful of each other. I was persistent, but I
Speaker 1: was also very respectful, very conscious that I sensed he
Speaker 1: was concerned about his privacy. I think he worried that
Speaker 1: if there was me, there might be twenty others behind me.
Speaker 1: So my biological father, again a medical ethicist, had given
Speaker 1: I think a great deal of thought to this after
Speaker 1: he realized that he had a biological child in the world.
Speaker 1: He had never told his wife a fifty years that
Speaker 1: he had been a donor. It was insignificant, you know,
Speaker 1: it was. It just hadn't needed some money, needed extra money,
Speaker 1: and you know, there's the added bonus of I'm doing
Speaker 1: I'm doing a good thing, I'm helping a family. But
Speaker 1: it was promoted as kind of it's not a bigger
Speaker 1: deal than giving blood basically, which we of course know
Speaker 1: it's very, very different. So he did agree to meet
Speaker 1: me after a bit of a back and forth, and
Speaker 1: we met for lunch at a restaurant in New Jersey.
Speaker 1: He and his wife were traveling east and my husband
Speaker 1: and I. So he did tell his wife he had
Speaker 1: he told me. He told his wife instantly after getting
Speaker 1: the email, and he also told his kids. It's they
Speaker 1: they have a really lovely, very open family where there
Speaker 1: aren't a lot of secrets, and they you know, had
Speaker 1: a family meeting and talked about it. So we went,
Speaker 1: we went to lunch, and we had this four and
Speaker 1: a half hour lunch sitting in this darkening restaurant in
Speaker 1: New Jersey. UM, and I think the biggest takeaway, I mean,
Speaker 1: I had many takeaways. It was again surreal to see
Speaker 1: yourself in a stranger. UM. We see ourselves and the
Speaker 1: parents who raise us all the time, but we take
Speaker 1: it for granted. And suddenly there's this person who I
Speaker 1: don't know, but I'm seeing absolutely like gestures and traits
Speaker 1: and I'm seeing where I come from. But the biggest
Speaker 1: takeaway was afterwards, and it was in the days afterwards.
Speaker 1: It was the first time that I started to feel
Speaker 1: reconnected with my dad. I started to feel like, no,
Speaker 1: this man that I just had lunch with, he's not
Speaker 1: my dad, he's not my father. I do come from him.
Speaker 1: The language that came to me afterwards was It's like,
Speaker 1: he's the country that I'm from. And I've never set
Speaker 1: foot in that country, and I haven't climbed its mountains,
Speaker 1: and I haven't eaten its food, and I haven't breathed
Speaker 1: its air. But it's my country and I come from it,
Speaker 1: and and the people who we love and my father
Speaker 1: loved me into being my father. I think about every
Speaker 1: day my father. As I'm talking to you, I have
Speaker 1: chills up and down my arms that I've decided means
Speaker 1: that he's up there listening. Um, it's a profound soul connection.
Speaker 1: But I actually needed to meet the man that I
Speaker 1: come from genetically and biologically to have that feeling, to
Speaker 1: return to that feeling when we come back. How One
Speaker 1: woman turned her own d n A surprise into an
Speaker 1: expansive support network for others who were shocked by their results.
Speaker 1: In two thousand seventeen, Catherine St. Clair also decided on
Speaker 1: a whim to take a d n A test. She
Speaker 1: was at work when she checked her results and was
Speaker 1: shocked to find out her brother was in fact only
Speaker 1: her half sibling. I put my head down on the desk,
Speaker 1: and the emotional part of me was going, oh my god,
Speaker 1: oh my god, Oh my god, oh my god, oh
Speaker 1: my god. And the logical part of me was trying
Speaker 1: to calm myself down, saying, you're still the same person.
Speaker 1: Nothing has changed. You're the same person you were when
Speaker 1: you woke up this morning. This is just new information.
Speaker 1: You're okay, Um, But but the emotional part of me
Speaker 1: was totally freaking out. Within weeks, Catherine created a discreet
Speaker 1: and vite only Facebook group called d n A NPE
Speaker 1: Friends NPE meaning not parent expected. When I first created
Speaker 1: this group, I was expecting that I would probably find
Speaker 1: four or five more people like me and we could
Speaker 1: help each other. And I set a lofty goal. Wouldn't
Speaker 1: it be wonderful if we could find as many as twelve?
Speaker 1: I had no idea how normal this was. I felt
Speaker 1: like a freak. I felt like I was going to
Speaker 1: be viewed as a bug, and I hated that feelings.
Speaker 1: But it was actually really comforting to see people coming
Speaker 1: in droves. Our group right now is pushing, and that's
Speaker 1: just for our main group of n P SUM. We
Speaker 1: actually have over a hundred groups. We have a support
Speaker 1: group just for the mothers. We have a support group
Speaker 1: just for the fathers UM. We have regional groups so
Speaker 1: that people can plan to get together and have meet
Speaker 1: and greets, because we found that to be a very
Speaker 1: comforting healing experience to have physical gatherings where everyone can
Speaker 1: hug each other and talk. It's amazing. It's miraculous to
Speaker 1: me the amount of healing that's happening and we're still
Speaker 1: bringing people in, probably about a hundred and fifty two
Speaker 1: hundred a month. When Catherine found out that her biological
Speaker 1: father wasn't the man who raised her, she couldn't believe
Speaker 1: how little the company did to help her in this
Speaker 1: very difficult time. She couldn't even get a representative on
Speaker 1: the phone. The best she could do was message someone
Speaker 1: through her computer using the live chat feature on the
Speaker 1: company's website. When I was doing the chat with this woman,
Speaker 1: it would have been better if it had been a
Speaker 1: phone call. And with that phone call, they said, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're going to send you this packet of information. We
Speaker 1: take this phone number down right now. This is a
Speaker 1: hotline that you can call. Here is a Facebook group
Speaker 1: that you can join where you can get emotional support. UM.
Speaker 1: Here's here's a website that offers links to um mental
Speaker 1: health professionals in your area. UM. I feel like that
Speaker 1: they should have more of an obligation to provide those
Speaker 1: kind of tools and resources to these people. And they're
Speaker 1: about to be even more people like Katherine and Danny.
Speaker 1: Considering the fact that by two this global DNA testing
Speaker 1: market will see as many as one hundred million people,
Speaker 1: that's a three heard of the US population by the way,
Speaker 1: and more people, of course, means big Bucks. In two years,
Speaker 1: revenues are expected to double, topping three hundred and forty
Speaker 1: million dollars. I believe that if an organization is making
Speaker 1: a significant financial profit off of a product that is
Speaker 1: opening up these Pandora's boxes, they should feel an ethical responsibility. Legally, no,
Speaker 1: they don't have illegal responsibility, but ethically they should feel
Speaker 1: a responsibility to provide whatever tools or resources are needed
Speaker 1: to their clients to help them through this. When we
Speaker 1: come back, we'll ask one of those organizations if they
Speaker 1: can and are doing better by their customers. One of
Speaker 1: the biggest players in the at home DNA testing space
Speaker 1: is twenty three and Me. Recently through a genetic testing service,
Speaker 1: twenty three and Me they found out about each other.
Speaker 1: They found each other after they both decided to try
Speaker 1: twenty three and me, and it wouldn't have been possible
Speaker 1: without a DNA test from twenty three and Me. I
Speaker 1: was really curious about all this ancestry hype, so I
Speaker 1: ordered an at home kit from twenty three and Me.
Speaker 1: Spit into a tube okay, kind of pink because of
Speaker 1: my lipstick. I hope that doesn't screw it up, and
Speaker 1: then I sent it off to some strangers in Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley to be analyzed. Okay, I'm ready to seal it
Speaker 1: up and send it off and find out who I
Speaker 1: am and where I came from. So the Ancestry Composition
Speaker 1: Report analyze, this is your d NA UM and then
Speaker 1: we base your results on your genetic similarity to the
Speaker 1: forty five reference populations that we have. That's Julianna Centron,
Speaker 1: a customer care representative at twenty three, and me who
Speaker 1: helped me understand my results, which were not all that surprising.
Speaker 1: I'm basically half Northwestern European, mostly British and Irish with
Speaker 1: a little French and German thrown in, and half Ashkenazi
Speaker 1: jew which makes sense since my dad was Presbyterian but
Speaker 1: my mom was Jewish, but I did learn something about
Speaker 1: the Jewish half. Most people associate this with being a
Speaker 1: religion um but human geneticists have actually found that um
Speaker 1: Askenazi Jews are a genetically similar group, and so because
Speaker 1: they're a close knit population and genetically share long stretches
Speaker 1: of DNA, we're able to actually identify ash Nazi Jewish
Speaker 1: ancestry separate it from other European ancestries UM, you know,
Speaker 1: such as Eastern European or German UM because of those
Speaker 1: distinct genetic markers. But what if I had uncovered a
Speaker 1: huge family secret hiding in my DNA? Could I expect
Speaker 1: any support from twenty three and Me? Julianna says, I'd
Speaker 1: be able to get a trained customer care representative on
Speaker 1: the phone. But more than that, the company launched just
Speaker 1: last year a support page that sounds a lot like
Speaker 1: the one Catherine sank Clair laid out, and it was
Speaker 1: developed to help customers or any of their connections navigate
Speaker 1: these relationships that they learned through twenty three and Me.
Speaker 1: We worked closely with genetic counselors to gain insight into
Speaker 1: what their patients were asking for and needed, and we
Speaker 1: developed this resource UM, you know, for those that are
Speaker 1: looking for more information. It actually links to customer stories
Speaker 1: UM and these are real customers that have learned about
Speaker 1: unexpected relatives. I think it makes it so that, you know,
Speaker 1: customers finding out this type of information don't feel alone
Speaker 1: and realize that there are other people out there that
Speaker 1: you know, are kind of going through the same thing.
Speaker 1: Another thing that we offer, um you know, is additional
Speaker 1: resources within that page, things like better Help and talk Space.
Speaker 1: They're not companies that were affiliated with but we do
Speaker 1: link to them, um you know on our website through
Speaker 1: the report. Connecting customers to professional counseling sites like better
Speaker 1: Help and talk Space seems like a step in the
Speaker 1: right direction, especially when some studies estimate as many as
Speaker 1: ten percent of people who take at home DNA tests
Speaker 1: will find out a parent isn't their biological parent. That
Speaker 1: means millions of families are about to come face to
Speaker 1: face with some difficult truths, but for many, learning those
Speaker 1: truths is still worth the initial trauma. Danny Shapiro, this
Speaker 1: whole experience ants obviously changed you, would you say for
Speaker 1: the better without question. It's the feeling was initially of
Speaker 1: I don't know how to withstand this. Um. I just
Speaker 1: felt like who am I? Who am I? I'm not
Speaker 1: who I thought I was, And it moved over time
Speaker 1: to this place that was one of great liberation because
Speaker 1: the truth had been withheld from me and I had
Speaker 1: sensed that. I think it's what made me a writer.
Speaker 1: I think, whether my novels or my memoirs, all my
Speaker 1: novels thematically were in one way or another about family secrets.
Speaker 1: They all were about the corrosive power of them. Why
Speaker 1: was I writing about this? I didn't know. It just
Speaker 1: was kind of territory. I kept returning to. It's like
Speaker 1: my superpower almost. That's what it feels like to me. Now.
Speaker 1: It's really made me quite fearless in the world, and
Speaker 1: it's all so given me a sense of purpose. If
Speaker 1: you've found some shocking news from an at home DNA
Speaker 1: test and you're looking for support, check out Catherine Saint
Speaker 1: Clair's foundation mpe Fellowship dot org. You can also listen
Speaker 1: to Danny Shapiro's podcast Family Secrets, which just launched its
Speaker 1: third season. Do you hear how others have dealt with
Speaker 1: the trauma and power of their own revelations? It's really riveting.
Speaker 1: And that does it for this week's edition of Next Question.
Speaker 1: Keep up with all of our episodes on Apple podcast,
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Speaker 1: social media platforms. Until next time and my Next Question,
Speaker 1: I'm Katie Currik. Next Question with Katie Kurik is the
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Katie curreic Media. The
Speaker 1: executive producers are Katie Currik, Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang.
Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Our show producer is
Speaker 1: Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are Emily Pinto and Derek Clements.
Speaker 1: Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan Fagin and Lowell Berlante, mixing
Speaker 1: by Dylan Fagan. Our researcher is Gabriel Loser. For more
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