1 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 1: I'm George Severis and I'm Julia Claire and this is 2 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination 3 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: with the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go into one 4 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: aspect of the Kennedy story. And today is our monthly 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: Movie Club episode, and we are talking about the two 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: thousand and one political thriller. And I do use both 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: of those words liberally. Thirteen Days Thirteen Days, about the 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: Cuban missile crisis, starring Kevin Costner bree Van Decamp's husband 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: from Desperate Housewives. 10 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: I was gonna say. 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: He looks great in this film. 12 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 2: He looks so good. And Bruce Greenwood as John F. Kennedy. 13 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,319 Speaker 2: And if you don't know who Bruce Greenwood is, if 14 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 2: you watched mad Men, he is the handsome, older gentleman 15 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: who wants to run away with Joan towards the end 16 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 2: of the ceris is okay. 17 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: This movie is full of you know that guy, that guy. 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: It's full of character actors who I've seen in other places. 19 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously Dylan Baker, iconic actor and star of 20 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: the movie Happiness, one of the craziest movies I've ever 21 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: seen in my life. I have to say, this is 22 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: one of those movies that they would do some sort 23 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: of study and show it to people of a different 24 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: culture and be like, can you tell these white men 25 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: apart like you? 26 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 2: Not a single person could. 27 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: I was barely able to keep it. 28 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard. 29 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: I kept having to remind myself like, this one's Kennedy, 30 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: this one's Bobby, this one and also the protagonist of 31 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: this movie, Kevin Costner, is from what I understand, a 32 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: relatively inconsequential historical figure that is not really in a 33 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: lot of historical accounts, or doesn't have a starring role 34 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: in a lot of historical accounts of the Cuban missile crisis. 35 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: He's one of JFK's secretaries who does his scheduling right exactly. 36 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: He's list. He's introduced himself as a special assistant to 37 00:01:58,080 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: the President or something. 38 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, this movie is insane and it's also boring, which 39 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 2: is crazy. It's making a lot of big swings and 40 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 2: also is somehow so dull, and it's two and a 41 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: half hours. 42 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: It's interesting name one big swing. 43 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, the big swings to me are the accents, 44 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 2: and we'll get to that. I mean, there's a whole 45 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 2: universe inside of these accents, and also there are these 46 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 2: really dramatic score needle drops. What we could do, is 47 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: it a blockade of Cuba, And then there's this extremely 48 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: mellow dramatic music that comes in like dune dun duh. 49 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: Yes, it is true, And the needle drops come not 50 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: even at the most dramatic moments, because the blockade of 51 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: Cuba is not, in fact, the most dramatic choice they 52 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: could have made. And we're going to get into, you know, 53 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: what the Cuban missile crisis actually was, and we will 54 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: explain the significance of these things. But the decision to 55 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: do a blockade comes after the much more dramatic suggestion of. 56 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: You know, an air strike. 57 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: An air strike is rejected, so the needle drop should 58 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: not be dramatic. It should be like, oh good, we're 59 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: so far resisting any sort of violent confrontation. 60 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 2: But it's it's like literally like soap opera music. Yeah, 61 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: it's crazy, so crazy. 62 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: Let's have it in the southeast, as far north as Washington, 63 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: DC are in range of these weapons, and in the 64 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: event of a launch, we'd have only five minutes of warning. 65 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: In those five minutes, they could kill eighty million Americans. 66 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: We have to get those missiles out. It's yeah, it's 67 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: an interesting mix of matter of fact diplomatic conversations, but 68 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: scored as though we are watching war and murder taking 69 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: place at all times. It's almost like they shot the movie, 70 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: realized it was boring, and then they were like, right, 71 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: how can we judge it up with some music? 72 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: But they didn't try hard enough. They didn't try enough. 73 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: So before we get into the weeds of the movie, 74 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: I do think we should at least attempt to say 75 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: what the actual Cuban missile crisis was, because this is 76 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: the only episode spoiler that we will do about the 77 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: Cuban missile crisis. So this movie is really our one 78 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: window into that historical event, which neither of us live through. 79 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: So I'm mostly going off of Kevin Costner's account here, folks, right, right, 80 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: of course, So do you want to give it a shot? 81 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: Okay. The thing that I'll say to intro this is 82 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: for any of you out there listening who are big 83 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: Kennedy heads, and I assume some of you are. You 84 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: might be thinking that the name of this film Thirteen Days, 85 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: means that it is based on the book of the 86 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: same name. 87 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: By Robert F. 88 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: Kennedy about the Cuban Missile crisis, and you would be wrong. 89 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: It is in fact based on a different book called 90 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 2: the Kennedy Tapes Inside the White House during the Cuban 91 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 2: Missile Crisis. And not to get two in the weeds here, 92 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: but Kennedy, like Nixon would after him, recorded a lot 93 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: of his White House meetings, and so a lot of 94 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 2: the dialogue in this movie is taken directly from the 95 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 2: those tapes, which maybe is why it's as boring as 96 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 2: it is. It really could have used a theatrical hand. 97 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, it actually is named thirteen days because 98 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: that is how long it is, which people don't realize 99 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: it actually is a full thirteen days. It takes thirteen 100 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: days to watch. 101 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 2: You know. 102 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: We want to have it both ways, because if this 103 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: movie had been made in a more dramatic way and 104 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: everyone had been either had been like real heroes and 105 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: real villains, I'm sure we would have complained that this 106 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: is overly mythologizing and overly jingalistic and whatever, and so 107 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: now we have the opposite of that, which is just 108 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: a very matter of fact. To be clear, there is 109 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 1: a little bit of mythologizing, and the Kennedys are really 110 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: portrayed as essentially perfect throughout this movie. 111 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: So crazy, and we will get to that as well. 112 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: But yeah, it is an elegiic portrayal of the two 113 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: of them, of Bobby and JFK, if I've ever seen one. 114 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: Oh, I really kept expecting because there's a way to 115 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: maintain the propagandistic tone while also introducing some flaws. And 116 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: in fact, I think it would help even if your 117 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: goal is to make an America first popagianistic movie, it 118 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: actually would help to be like, well, he also had demons, 119 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: you know, maybe portray him having an affair or something 120 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: and be like, but at the end of the day, 121 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 1: he put his country first. But it's not even that. 122 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: It's literally like he is perfect in every way. 123 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he I mean again Bruce Greenwood who plays JFK. 124 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: And this is also a flaw of the screenwriting as well. 125 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 2: He is just made to do all of these dramatic 126 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 2: pauses where he turns inside profile and is what did 127 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: you say to me? Yeah, the portrayal of JFK is 128 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 2: so over the top, it's so cartoonishly. This was the 129 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: world's most perfect man. That it strains all credulity. 130 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: So all right, the Cuban missile crisis, at the most 131 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: basic level was the titular thirteen days, where the thirteen 132 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: day period between the US discovering via satellite imagery that 133 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: there were these Soviet missiles on Cuban land that they 134 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: didn't know about before, and so there was a direct 135 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: threat of nuclear war between the US and the Soviet Union. 136 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: So the thirteen days refers to the thirteen day period 137 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: where the Kennedy administration attempted to diplomatically disarm this very 138 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: specific group of nuclear weapons and was attempting to avoid 139 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: all out nuclear war. And so you know, if you 140 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: talk to anyone who lived through that period, they described 141 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,679 Speaker 1: this like terrifying couple of weeks where at any given 142 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: point the Soviets could have attacked the US and the attack, 143 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, based on the maps we see in the movie, 144 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: could have gone all the way up to the like Washington, 145 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: DC area from Cuba, and so it is seen, especially 146 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: after the disaster, that is a bay of pigs. There 147 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: was a lot of skepticism about whether Kennedy would be 148 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: able to handle something like this, and I think ultimately 149 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: it is seen as a diplomatic win that he was 150 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: able to avoid nuclear war in this instance, and so 151 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: that is what we are seeing dramatized. It is, of 152 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: course a huge challenge to dramatize thirteen days of diplomacy 153 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: without like, you know, there are no This isn't a 154 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: war movie. There are no battles. This is a movie 155 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: about meetings. It's a movie about meetings. It's also a 156 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: movie about meetings all within the same administration, Like it 157 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: isn't even a movie about an election where there are 158 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: competing visions of the country. I mean, yes, there are 159 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: arguments between let's say, the more hawkish joint chiefs of 160 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: staff and the more you know Adli Stevenson's of the 161 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: world who much more prefer to go you know, diplomacy first. 162 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: But I think the right way to make a movie 163 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: about meetings and about diplomacy potentially would be to like 164 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: overemphasize each character's personal connection to their political views, Like 165 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: maybe one of them has a more tortured past or history, 166 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: and that's why he is now more prone to being 167 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: pro peace. Maybe someone else has like a you know, 168 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: you could show somehow that their experience in the military 169 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: taught them that being more aggressive is the answer. We 170 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: get no backstory for anyone, and it is just a 171 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 1: series of sort of gentlemanly arguments. 172 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it would be one thing if this movie 173 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: were boring, as we just said, because it was so 174 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: realistic and it was so like based on the facts, 175 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: but it also alters the facts to paint Jack and 176 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 2: RFK in the most positive light. Like they kind of 177 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: portrayed Bobby as a dove wanting to let cooler heads 178 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: prevail and be circumspect, and he was one of the 179 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: most hawkish members of the administration. You know who could 180 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 2: have done a good job with this movie. I think 181 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: this should have been director Ben Affleck. 182 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: You wanted it Argo, you wanted argos. Yeah, I think 183 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: this might have been before your time on the podcast. 184 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 1: But when we did Oliver Stone's JFK, which is in 185 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: so many ways a completely insane movie. I mean, it 186 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: is a movie that basically completely buys into completely disproven 187 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories about the JFK assassination. However, it is a 188 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: movie like there are people yelling, there are people being 189 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: afraid of being assassinated. There are people that have like 190 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: deeply held political beliefs that they will are willing to 191 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: die for? You know, you got to give me something 192 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: to chew on here, drama. I mean, I actually remember 193 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: the cover of this movie very well because I used 194 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: to see it at Blockbuster rollers because it is you know, 195 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: it came out in two thousand and one, so it 196 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: is very much like the era that both you and 197 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: I and people our age were most likely to be 198 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: going to the movie store with their with their parents. 199 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: It reminds me of the way that we both remember 200 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: the House of Yes poster very well with propro POSI 201 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: but I remember this cover very well because to me, 202 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: it was so emblematic of like, this is an adult movie. 203 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: This is a movie I wouldn't understand if I were 204 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: to watch it. It is a political movie, and it 205 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,599 Speaker 1: just even the cover just screams boring. I used to 206 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: pay three identical men in front of the American flag. Yeah. 207 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: And it's crazy too, because this was a highly dramatic, 208 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: tense time in American history and they made it so boring. 209 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: I have to say, Okay, let's say the political discussions 210 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: and the things happening inside the White House, maybe we 211 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: can keep those boring. And the whole point is this 212 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: is the hard work of diplomacy. It's not like you 213 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: see it in the movies. It's actually a series of 214 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: mature conversations and disagreements and negotiations. That's fine, but then 215 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: you have to supplement that with scenes from real life, 216 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: because they did have There were scenes from Kevin Costner's 217 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: family life which were just nothing. It's like the classic 218 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: stock wife character whose entire role is just being like 219 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: the careful out there. I have seventeen kids at home 220 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: and they're not going to like life without their daddy. 221 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 2: And I'll talk to you about your report card later. 222 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: Literally, yes, yeah, by the way, where's that conversation? 223 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 2: I was on the edge of I see. I know. 224 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after 225 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 2: this break, and we're back with more United States of Kennedy. 226 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: The other thing that this movie tried to do, and 227 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: this would have been more the Bobby approach Bobby the 228 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 1: movie we saw about the RKA assassination is have vignettes 229 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: of the rest of the world while all this was happening, 230 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: even just you know, let's say there's a secretary in 231 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: the White House. You get a little peek into what 232 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: her life is like outside of her job or the 233 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: montages of people watching on the TV just have one 234 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: line of dialogue that signifies how big of a deal 235 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: this is to people. 236 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 2: I know that this came about around the same time 237 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 2: as The West Wing, and I kept thinking about that 238 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: throughout the movie because it kind of looks like a 239 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 2: terrible episode of The West Wing. Like, I have a 240 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 2: lot to say about Aaron Sorkin, but he would never 241 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 2: allow for this to happen. 242 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: I mean, this movie really does make you desperate for 243 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: Aaron Sorkin. That's what I mean when I say I 244 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: was missing like the Oliver Stone JFK. I'm like, Okay, 245 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: I believe you. Real life is more boring than movies. 246 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: But I'm watching a movie like I'm needing some movie 247 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: stuff to happen here, folks. 248 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's why I'm calling for a redo of 249 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 2: this movie. Screenwriter, Aaron Sorkin, director Ben Affleck. Oh yeah, 250 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 2: let's talk about some of the choices that they made here. 251 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 2: So from what I read about this movie, and I 252 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: did fact check the IMDb trivia, Wow, I did the work, 253 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 2: and it does seem like a lot of the IMDb 254 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: trivia is accurate and the screenplay of this movie, You're 255 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: not gonna believe. It was not exciting to a lot 256 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 2: of people. It kind of sat on the shelf at 257 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: the studios for a while, and then Kevin Coostner got 258 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 2: interested in it, and that renewed some sort of spark 259 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: in developing this movie. Unfortunately, Kevin Costner, as we alluded to, 260 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 2: plays basically a secretary of scheduling who was the real 261 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 2: life person he is based on was one of Bobby's 262 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 2: friends from Harvard and was known as part of the 263 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: Irish mafia in the White House. And I've seen a 264 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: lot of Boston accents butchered in my time on this 265 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: spinning planet. I have never seen anything like this before. 266 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: This is a Boston accent, Kevin Costner's that is so 267 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 2: from outer space that it makes the Nancy Dunovan character 268 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: on Thirty Rock, the Julianne Moore Boston accent look plausible. 269 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes it look subdued and sort of sort 270 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: of elegant. Something that was so funny about the accents 271 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: is I believe, and you know, if I'm wrong, I apologize. 272 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: I believe that. In the beginning, obviously you slowly realize 273 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: you are in Washington, DC, but there isn't an a 274 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: card that says Washington, DC, and so the accent almost 275 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: to me, it actually made me think we were in 276 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: Boston because of how exaggerated it was. I was like, Oh, 277 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: this is their way of setting the scene by being like, 278 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: look how they're talking we're in Massachusetts. Because I would 279 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: even say that it got a little less crazy after 280 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: the first scene. But in the first scene with the family, 281 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: it's almost like they're doing like an accent off him 282 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: and his wife and the kids are sort of being like, 283 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: how much can we turn this up? Yeah, just to 284 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: kind of show off, how much can we do before 285 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: the director is like, all right, guys, tote it down. 286 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: It's so crazy. And I understand that for good actors, 287 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: the Boston accent is hard. Kevin Costner famously does not 288 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 2: have an error for accents. It is a suicide mission 289 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 2: to give him this role. So the other two leads, 290 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 2: Bruce Greenwood who plays JFK and Stephen kolb pre Vandakamp's 291 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: husband who plays RFK, are doing a passibly better job. 292 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: Especially Stephen Kolp is doing I think a pretty serviceable 293 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: like Boston Brahman accent. He actually sounds like he listened 294 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: to a lot of tape of Bobby Bruce Greenwood goes 295 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: in and out. I really appreciated that as someone whose 296 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 2: dad has a very thick Boston action that he said 297 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: Cuba instead of Cuba. What Kevin Costner did was delete 298 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: the letter R from his speech, and that's not accurate. 299 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: Necessarily you have to add it in weird places. And 300 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: also it's just anyways. But Bruce Greenwood sometimes he's really good. 301 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: Sometimes he goes a little southern, and there was a lot. 302 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: Of slip badge into southern accent, I would say in 303 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: this film. 304 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: So it's very confusing, But I have to say Stephen 305 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: Koop did a great and Stephen colb also looks so 306 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: much like Bobby. They really got his both him and 307 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: Bruce Greenwood. The head shapes are perfect, like sometimes when 308 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 2: they're out of focus in the frame, you're like, oh wow, 309 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 2: that looks just like them. I have no idea what 310 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 2: Kevin Costner is doing. 311 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: Well. What's funny about Kevin costner character is it's the 312 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: most random casting, most strange performance, and most random character because, 313 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: as we said, this character was not in any of 314 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: the history written about this incident. He was not a 315 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: starring member of the drama, which makes me think that 316 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: maybe it was sort of intentional in that they wanted 317 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: to show the everyday heroism of a sort of like 318 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: third rate team player, you know, in the administration, which 319 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: I sort of respect. It's like telling the tale of 320 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: nine to eleven through like a janitor who worked on 321 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: the towers or something like there is something there is 322 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: something interesting and theoretically cinematic about something like that. But 323 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 1: then he also is just sort of a company man, 324 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: Like he doesn't have some huge point of view that 325 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: we are supposed to have strong feelings about. 326 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I feel like a lot of the screenplay 327 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 2: being from kind of his point of view is meant 328 00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 2: for these sweeping speeches that he gives to JFKA about 329 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 2: how good JFK is. Yeah, Like he just is telling 330 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 2: him here, better than all of us, you'll make the 331 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 2: right decision. 332 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: I think. Actually that's a very interesting thing to point out, 333 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: because this movie almost shows its hand by portraying JFK 334 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: is good mostly via things other people say about him. Yes, 335 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: Like it is really like it's like a live reenactment 336 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: of like here's how to create a cult of personality 337 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: around a person you can self evidently see he's not 338 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,479 Speaker 1: doing anything that crazy or that heroic, and yet everyone 339 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: around him is like, God, he's good. 340 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, we've kind of almost said all there 341 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 2: is to say about the plot of this movie and 342 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: the specifics. It's a lot of like intentionally trying to 343 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 2: drum up gravitas, both with the portrayal of JFK and 344 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 2: Bobby and also the again, the melodramatic music. This film 345 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 2: is telegraphing to you so hard that it wants you 346 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 2: to believe that it is important, and it really falls 347 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 2: so flat to me. And that's why he was also 348 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 2: spoiler alert, a box office bomb. It did not even 349 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 2: recoup its budget. 350 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: I know. And yet the reviews were not bad. And 351 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, we both read the Ebert review, and Roger 352 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: Ebert is someone I really try. I mean, as i'd say, 353 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: someone I really trust. He is someone I really trust 354 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: in the sense that he's such an og and it's 355 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: always fun to read his reviews. But he is in 356 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: classic kind of film critic of that era. He's a 357 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: quirky guy that loves to randomly decide he loves something 358 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: that everyone else hates, or randomly decide that some actor 359 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: is like the best actor of his generation, and so 360 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: sometimes you do read his reviews and you're kind of like, 361 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: how much caffeine had you had that day out? What 362 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: was the what was the vibe like in the office? 363 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like, oh, I think Roger's doing a sag. 364 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,239 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but he really, you know, he gave this 365 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: film three out of four stars. He says it's a 366 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: really kind of like grown up, mature movie about politics. 367 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: He does say, you know, for anyone who knows about 368 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: the history, this is not gonna give him anything new, 369 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: but it is sort of like a credible reenactment of 370 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: what happened. I don't know, I mean in terms of 371 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: the Kennedy angle, which is of course what we're here 372 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: to talk about. One thing I found interesting was the 373 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: reference to Munich, which is that Joe Kennedy was instrumental 374 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: in appeasing Hitler during early diplomatic talks before the beginning 375 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: of World War Two, and it is seen as a 376 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: great stain on his reputation that he basically, for lack 377 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: of a better term, like thought they could negotiate with 378 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: Hitler and thought that by conceding certain things they would 379 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: be able to avoid war, which was of course a 380 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: complete misread of the situation. And that is something that 381 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: people bring up to Kennedy because they're basically like, don't 382 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: do what your father did and you know, appease the 383 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 1: Soviets in this in this case. 384 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: Or they bring it up behind his back and say, 385 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 2: I hope appeasement doesn't run in the family, right exactly, 386 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,479 Speaker 2: which you know, the screenwriter really thought he ate with 387 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: that line. 388 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, this is a dramatization that really would 389 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: help if they made it a little more clear. On 390 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: the one hand, he doesn't want to follow in his 391 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: footsteps and make this grave mistake and essentially concede to 392 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union and or start World War three. And 393 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: then on the other hand, he has just had this 394 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: terrible Bay of Pigs disaster, so he also doesn't want 395 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: to go too far and basically kill a bunch of 396 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: troops for no reason. Yeah. 397 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 2: And I thought that was interesting too, that they showed 398 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 2: JFK on the phone with the head of the New 399 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: York Times asking him to like hold the story about 400 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 2: the missiles before JFK can get on TV and tell 401 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: everybody about the United States's plan and the New York 402 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 2: Times guy is like, we just did this with the 403 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: Bay of Pigs and it was just a disaster. And 404 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 2: then the JFK characters like, tell your reporters they'll be 405 00:21:55,560 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: saving American lives. It's just so it's yeah, milked for 406 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 2: every ounce it is worth. It's so crazy. 407 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up the New York Times thing, 408 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: because there are these little vignettes that are meant to 409 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: kind of show you like, Wow, this is what the 410 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: innerworkers of politics are like, and not just politics but power. 411 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: You know, the idea that there is communication between the 412 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: media and the White House in these secretive ways that 413 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: maybe we don't know as outside civilians. And I think 414 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: another element of that is when a reporter gets a 415 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: message from Kruse Chef via some Soviet spy and then 416 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: goes and tells it to the White House. Like there 417 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: are all these like backroom dealings, not necessarily nefarious, but 418 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: just backroom dealings that the average person might not have 419 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: access to. And I was wondering is one of the 420 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: reasons I'm finding this so dull because the day to 421 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: day of what we read about our current White House 422 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: is so much crazier that I'm not quite scandalized that. 423 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. Let's say a reporter got a coded 424 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: message from the Soviets and then went to the White 425 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: House to tell him, or or you know, someone made 426 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: some mistake and they accidentally escalated to def con whatever 427 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: when they didn't mean to. It seems overall so tame 428 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: compared to what I imagine is currently currently happening in 429 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: the White House that I was kind of like, is 430 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: that it? 431 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: I just think that this was all an execution problem. Yeah, 432 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 2: because this was an extremely dramatic time in American history. 433 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 2: We were on the brink of nuclear war. 434 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: I know, it's kind of hard to. 435 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 2: Get more exciting than that, and they just telegraphed it 436 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 2: in the most plodding way possible. I just can't believe 437 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 2: how much they whipped it. 438 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: I have to say. One of the big signs that 439 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: you know this is not going well is when you 440 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 1: realize the film itself is not interesting, so you intersperse 441 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: it with montages of nuclear bombs going off, because that's 442 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: what they do. This is a series of meetings, as 443 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: you said, meetings, meetings, meetings, phone calls, meeting, called your wife, honey, 444 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: are you coming home? Meetings, meetings, meetings, and then it's like, 445 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: oh God, we have to do something that keeps the 446 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: audience interested. So it just will cut to footage of 447 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: an atomic bomb going off, which also, by the way, 448 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: as a viewer, is confusing because you're like, is that happening, yes, 449 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: But instead it just is cutting to basically like it 450 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: almost is like a James Bond opening montage, where there's 451 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: just kind of like red fumes, We're going to take 452 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: a short break, stay with us, and we're back with 453 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy. 454 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: There's also this weird use of black and white that 455 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 2: I didn't understand either, Like sometimes it intersperses between scenes 456 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 2: that are in black and white and scenes that are 457 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 2: in color. Most of the movie is in color, and 458 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: so I was wondering, what is the point of the 459 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 2: black and white scene, What is the message there? What 460 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 2: is it trying to tell us? And I don't think 461 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 2: there is a message. I don't think it means anything. 462 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 2: It's not like hearkening to the past exactly. 463 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: It's not harkening to the past. I thought maybe this 464 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: was like something that didn't happen but could have, or 465 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: something that one of them is imagining. It is kind 466 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: of a you know, real like filmmaking one on one, 467 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: Like if you're gonna film something in a different way, 468 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: it has to signify something that's just sort of how 469 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: you know, visual semiotics works. Yeah. I struggled with that 470 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: as well. 471 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 2: That was another big choice that made no sense. 472 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: It's funny, it's so easy to watch a movie like 473 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,479 Speaker 1: this and fall into film criticism one oh one, and 474 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: I kept being like, this film does not pass the 475 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: Bechtel test, Like it's just all this is a type 476 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: of movie that used to be everywhere, and then people 477 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: were like, all right, we can mix things up a bit, 478 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: and now at least a movie like this would have 479 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: some twist with or like even again, not to be 480 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: like a blogger that has just discovered feminism, but like 481 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: they could have had at least one of the wives 482 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: have give her, give her a health problem, give her 483 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: something something to go off of, you know, if it's 484 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: like or have like Okay, Kevin Costner's kid had his 485 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: report card that he was showing to his parents. What 486 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: if he had you know, one of the plot points 487 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: was that, you know, the dad was going to miss 488 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 1: the parent teacher conference. You know, I'm really kind of 489 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: scraping the bottom of the bank here we're begging you. 490 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean the fact that this is a movie 491 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 2: about most powerful country in the world being on the 492 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 2: brink of nuclear war and it doesn't feel exciting or 493 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: like there were any real stakes is so crazy. It 494 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: is such a huge indictment of everyone involved in this movie. 495 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, if anything, to be honest, I thought we would 496 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: watch this movie and then it would be a great 497 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: opportunity to discuss the Cuban missile crisis in more detail. 498 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,959 Speaker 1: And you know, apologies to our listers, but I'm kind 499 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: of like, I gotta go, and I gotta go hit 500 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: the stacks. I gotta go, I gotta go read a 501 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: little bit more. I didn't get what I needed here. 502 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: Kevin Costner wanted this movie to be important so much 503 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 2: much he really went on a diplomatic offensive of his 504 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 2: own with this movie and made sure that President Bill 505 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: Clinton and George W. Bush screened this. George W. Bush 506 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 2: screened this at the White House, and then Kevin Costner. 507 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 2: And this is true. This was in the IMDb trivia, 508 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 2: but I did fact check it. Kevin Costner went to Havana, 509 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: Cuba and screamed this for Fidel Castro. Wow, and then 510 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 2: they had a lively discussion afterwards about it. 511 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: You know, this is an interesting sort of element of 512 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: this that maybe we can get into. The mythology surrounding 513 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: something like a Cuban missile crisis is interesting because it 514 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: is almost like fetishizing diplomacy. 515 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 2: The pen is mightier than the soul. 516 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: Exactly, the pen is mightter than the sword, which I 517 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 1: ultimately I'm I believe, I believe, Yes. 518 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 2: Yes, I should love this movie, I should love the 519 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 2: concept of this, and I do believe all of that, 520 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 2: And I do think that the aversion of World War 521 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 2: Three in the Cuban Missile Crisis is a thing worth celebrating. Yeah, 522 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 2: And there are so many elements to this story that 523 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 2: are inherently dramatic and could be made into like a 524 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: West Wing style, because that's a lot about what the 525 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 2: West Wing is about as well, which is like, diplomacy 526 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 2: is our greatest right exactly weapon. 527 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: And I found, for example, I think that the Adli 528 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: Stevenson character, who is the one always fighting for the 529 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: diplomatic solution and the one that's sort of like he 530 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: even self identifies as a coward almost He's like, well, 531 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: if no one else is going to bring up the 532 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: Calidar solution, then I will. But then he proves to 533 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: be such a hero in the whole debacle, because he's 534 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: the one that has this very dramatic confrontation at the 535 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: un with the Soviets and basically like forces their hand 536 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: and forces them to admit that they do in fact 537 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: have missiles in Cuba. To me, that is such a 538 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: starring member of this movie, and yet we get no 539 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: more about him than just the obvious. 540 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, if you're going to make the movie 541 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: from anyone's point of view, I think maybe it should 542 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 2: have been Adelie Stevenson. 543 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: Exactly because it's interesting. The two sides, if you will, 544 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: in the argument boiled down to the most basic facts, 545 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: are like the joint chiefs of staff who think we 546 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: should escalate, and the adline stevens Is of the world, 547 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: who think anything you do don't escalate diplomacy above all, 548 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: if we just handle this delicately, we will get where 549 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: we want. And those people are never even in the 550 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: same room together. 551 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 2: I think there's only one scene where they're in the 552 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 2: same room and it lasts about twenty seconds, and Adelie 553 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: Stevenson is kind of like halfheartedly making an argument to 554 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 2: go a diplomatic crowd, which didn't even feel like historically 555 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 2: accurate to me. I think Adelie Stephenson, who was a 556 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: really storied senator. He was kind of a liberal lion 557 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 2: before Ted Kennedy and at the time, at the Cuban 558 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 2: missile crisis was the representative. 559 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: To the UN to the UN. 560 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think there could have been I don't know. 561 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 2: They made him into such like a whimp, yeah, and 562 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 2: I just don't believe that that was what he was 563 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 2: really like. In fact, you see him at like a 564 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: party scene afterwards being like, look at me, I cut 565 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: my head off in front of everybody else. 566 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's it's strange to show what his point 567 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,239 Speaker 1: of view is but then not make it central to 568 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: the story, because basically what it boils down to is 569 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: that all the side characters, who are obviously a bit 570 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: more one dimensional, have more interesting things to say than 571 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,959 Speaker 1: the three main leads. So the three main leads are JFK, Bobby, 572 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: and Kenny the famous Kenny, famous historical character Kenny Ken. 573 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 2: We don't even need to say, don't even need to 574 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 2: say his last name, what is it? 575 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: Williams O'Donnell, O'Donnell, excuse me. And by the way, speaking 576 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: of the Kennedy angle, there is some talk of anti 577 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: Irish and anti Catholic sentiment in the film, and as 578 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: you said, Kenny O'Donnell was like an old Harvard friend 579 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: of Bobby's and someone who was in that Irish Catholic 580 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: community with JFK and Bobby. So anyway, but the point is, 581 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: the three main characters are the ones that have the 582 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: least distinct points of view, and that makes it confusing 583 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: as to why elis Anyway, here's the thing. We could 584 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: go on about this, and I already can feel myself, 585 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: you know, being bored with my own repetition of just 586 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: being like, huh, why they why do they do that? 587 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 2: No? 588 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: I know there are you know, there are diminishing returns 589 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: to hearing two people just sort of expressed disbelief that 590 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: a movie got made. I'll say this, as I watch 591 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: more of these Kennedy movies, I'm starting to sort of 592 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: notice this kind of subgenre which is just mythologizing the 593 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: sixties in general, Like there's something about the JFK presidency. 594 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: Do you want to believe it was this time of 595 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: hope for America more broadly, like there is kind of 596 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: this like post war I think you even see it 597 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: in a show like mad Men. It's almost like, if 598 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: you google image America, you get the sixties. This is 599 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: America at its culturally, at least, you know, at its peak. 600 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: You know, we're coming out of a victory in World 601 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: War Two, there's an exciting young new president. Globally America 602 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: is the superpower, but is not like completely hated by 603 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: everyone yet. And I almost think that after that, something 604 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: like Madmen or later portrayals of the sixties are like 605 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: a correction of that. It's like people being like, well, 606 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: it wasn't all it wasn't all good, right. 607 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 2: I think I just want to say that I just 608 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 2: saw the poster, the movie poster again, and the tagline 609 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 2: for this movie is You'll never believe how close we came. 610 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 2: I know that sounds like a movie that might be 611 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,959 Speaker 2: worth watching. But again, you feel none of the drama 612 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 2: and none of the stakes in this movie. And I 613 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 2: just don't know how. 614 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: They did it. 615 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 2: I know aaronsre convindicated because he never would have let 616 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 2: this happen. 617 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: You know, I'll tell you one thing. You know, it's 618 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: bad when you're sort of like praying for nuclear war 619 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: to happen in the movie, just so that there's some drama. 620 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: God something, give us something. 621 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: I give us the alternative history. Well that is our 622 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: analysis over the two thousand and one film thirteen Days. 623 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: If you want to read a dissenting review, you can 624 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: google Roger Ebert's review. If nothing else, he is always 625 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: a great writer, always a joy to read. 626 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 2: Or you can you read about Fidel Castro's review of 627 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: this movie, which also apparently he liked it. And so 628 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: two men were always being pitted in the same sentence, 629 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: Roger Ebert Fidel Castro. They both liked this movie. 630 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: We didn't. Yes, that's right. Two kings stand before me. 631 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: I got to say, you know, if you already watched 632 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: the movie to listen to this episode, we appreciate you. 633 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: If you've gotten this far and we've already gotten your listens, 634 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you, don't go. 635 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,719 Speaker 2: Don't do it. So that's it for this week's episode. 636 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all Things 637 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: Kennedy every week. 638 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 2: United States of Kennedy is hosted by me Julia Clair 639 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 2: and George Saveres. 640 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: Original music by Joshua Chipolski. 641 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: Editing by Graham Gibson. 642 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: Mixing and mastering by Doug Bay. 643 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson. 644 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: Our producer is Carmen Laurent. 645 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Jenna Cagele. 646 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: Created by Lyra Smith. 647 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 2: United States of Kennedy is a production of iHeart Podcasts.