1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. One of our episodes coming up this week 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: includes a brief mention of the U. S. Supreme Court 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: decision Lessie Versus Ferguson, which upheld racial segregation as long 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: as the segregated facilities are equal. We're bringing our episode 5 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: on Lessie versus. Ferguson out of the archive to give 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: a little bit more context to that. And when this 7 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: episode originally came out, we followed up with two episodes 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: on Brown v Board which overturned this ruling. We mentioned 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: that those are coming at the top of the episode, 10 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: but since we have other classics lined up over the 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: next few weeks, just to be aware, we're not going 12 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: to be replaying those this time around, so don't don't 13 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: wait for those to show up in your feed, but 14 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: they still are in the archive if folks are interested. 15 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: This originally came out February Welcome to Stuff You Missed 16 00:00:52,560 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: in History Class, a production of I Heart Radio. Hello, 17 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson and 18 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: I'm Fry. We are going to spend a few episodes 19 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: over the next few weeks talking about the two Supreme 20 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: Court cases that uh sort of in a way book 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: ended segregation in the United States, and plus E versus Ferguson, 22 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court ruled that segregation was legal as long 23 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: as the separate facilities were equal, And then many years later, 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: Brown versus Board of Education overturned Plusy versus Ferguson and 25 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: found that school segregation was unconstitutional. That decision was such 26 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: a big deal and was so monumental and led to 27 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: such a huge backlash that we're actually going to split 28 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: that part of the conversation into two episodes later down 29 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: the road. So those two facts about plus E versus 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: Ferguson and Brown versus Board are things that most people 31 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,279 Speaker 1: who have studied the civil rights movement or United States 32 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: history in any way are pretty familiar with. But I 33 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: think for me and for you, both both of us 34 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: and probably a lot of other people, the names of 35 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,679 Speaker 1: the cases and what they did is the beginning and 36 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: the end of the conversation. Like, I had no idea 37 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: what the story was behind, how these cases came to be, 38 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: or any of that until I really got into researching 39 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: them for these episodes. So that's why we're going to 40 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: spend some time on this to talk about who the 41 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: people were involved in Plessy versus Ferguson and Brown versus Board, 42 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: and sort of the journey that these cases took to 43 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: come to the Supreme Court in the first place. So 44 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: the context that we're going to start with today is 45 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: actually the U. S. Civil War. There are people who 46 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: will argue that the Civil War was not fought over slavery, 47 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: that it was about states rights or economics. And while 48 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: states rights and economics were certainly involved, the primary rights 49 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: in question were the right to own slaves and the 50 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: right to travel freely with slaves into states where slavery 51 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: was illegal. The primary economic factor at issue, you was 52 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: that the Southern economy really relied on slavery in labor 53 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: intensive industries such as cotton farming. You could also make 54 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: the argument that the Civil War was fought over over 55 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: neither of those two things, That it was fought because 56 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: the North wanted to preserve the Union of the States, 57 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: but the South wanted to secede from that union. And 58 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: while strictly speaking this is also true, the big factor 59 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: that was driving states to succede, which was specifically cited 60 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: in the declarations of causes that were issued by Georgia, Mississippi, 61 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: South Carolina, and Texas was slavery. This is all relevant 62 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: because after the Union won the war in eighteen sixty five, 63 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: slavery was abolished in the places where it was still legal. 64 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: The federal government tried to rebuild the Southern infrastructure and 65 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: encourage racial equality in a period that became known as 66 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: the Reconstruction. Three amendments were added to the United States 67 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: Constitution as part of this effort. The thirteenth Amendment formally 68 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: abolished slavery, the fourteenth Amen meant granted citizenship to anyone 69 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: who was born in the United States or nationalized, which 70 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: included former slaves. And the fifteenth Amendment read, in part, 71 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: the right of citizens of the United States to vote 72 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: shall not be denied or abridged by the United States 73 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: or by any State, on account of race, color, or 74 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: previous condition of servitude. There was a lot more going 75 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: on during Reconstruction. All of the twists and turns could 76 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: easily be their own whole series of episodes. But to 77 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: make an extremely long story short, the South overall resented 78 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: the largely Northern pressure to free slaves and give them 79 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: the right to vote. This was especially true as black 80 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: officials were elected to office in the South and for 81 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: a brief period of time, some progress was made towards 82 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: rachel equality. As the Southern states were readmitted to the 83 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: Union and the federal government had less influence on how 84 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: those states were run, the states started passing laws that 85 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: restricted African Americans right to vote by basically taking an 86 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: advantage of the fact that most of them had been slaves, 87 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: and during their time as slaves, they had not been 88 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: allowed to learn to read or write, or to earn 89 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: money or to hold property. So new laws required that 90 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: in order to vote, people had to pass a literacy test, 91 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: or pay a poll tax, or own property, something that 92 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: in general white people in the South could do much 93 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: more easily than black people could. Some of these tests 94 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:29,119 Speaker 1: were also virtually unpassable. But we're only required for black voters. 95 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: But their right to vote restricted, Black Americans lost many 96 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: of their prior gains in terms of representation in the government. Afterwards, states, 97 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: both Southern states and border states enacted segregation laws that 98 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: became known as Jim Crow laws, which separated black and 99 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: white citizens in everything from hospitals to water fountains. Just 100 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: the name Jim Crow was an insult. It came from 101 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: a heavily stereotypical character in minstrel shows. These laws were 102 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: enforced not just through the usual means of making arrests 103 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: and bringing people to trial, but also through a social 104 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: structure that insisted that black people be subservient to white people. 105 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: The laws were also enforced more directly through intimidation and violence, 106 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: up to and including murder. White supremacy organizations like the 107 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: Ku Klux Klan really flourished, and violence against black citizens 108 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: at the hand of white citizens became both commonplace and 109 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: rarely prosecuted. Before we get into talking about a Jim 110 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: Crow law and how it led to a Supreme Court 111 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: ruling that legalized segregation, do you want to have a 112 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: word from a sponsor? Sure stupendous? So to return to 113 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: the story of Plessy versus Ferguson. One example of these 114 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: Jim Crow laws was Louisiana's separate car law. And this 115 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: law was to quote promote the comfort of passengers on 116 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: their trains by providing quote equal at separate accommodations for 117 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: the white and colored races. So anyone who boarded a 118 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: car in Louisiana that was not meant for their race 119 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: could be fined or jailed. Interracial couples were not exempt 120 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: from the law, nor were black maids and servants who 121 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: were traveling with white employers. Really, the only exception was 122 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: nurses who were taking care of children of another race. 123 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: This was signed into law on July tenth. Thanks to 124 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: its sizable black population, including slaves, free slaves, and creoles 125 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: of color, and to the Union's presence in New Orleans 126 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: during much of the Civil War, New Orleans have become 127 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: home to a large population of affluent, politically active black citizens. 128 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: When the separate car Law was passed, activists in New 129 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: Orleans set to work immediately trying to put together a 130 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: plan to challenge it. On September one, eighteen, prominent black 131 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: and Creole New Orleans citizens formed the Citizens Committee to 132 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: test the constitutionality of the Separate Our Law, or the Committoyer. 133 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: They got legal help from a white lawyer named Albion W. Tourge. 134 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: He was from New York and had been an abolitionist. 135 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: Tourge waived his fees and he promised to argue the 136 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: case before the Supreme Court. Shouldn't make it all the 137 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: way there, since Tourge was both very busy and also 138 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: very far away from Louisiana. They also had the help 139 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: of a local lawyer named James C. Walker. The committee 140 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: settled on a strategy of civil disobedience. They would find 141 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: someone to break the separate car law and get arrested, 142 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: and then they would take the case through the court system. 143 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: This they hoped would lead to overturning segregation, not just 144 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: on Louisiana trains, but in all of the United States. 145 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: Then they started looking for volunteers who the law would 146 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: consider to be colored, but who looked white. Legal distinctions 147 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: about who was considered to be part of which race 148 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: really varied from state to state and through the years, 149 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: and as a general rule, particularly in the South, the 150 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: law required smaller and small our amounts of African American 151 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: ancestry to be considered colored, and eventually this came down 152 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: to the one drop rule, meaning that in a lot 153 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: of places, if a person had one drop of African blood, 154 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: that person was considered to be black. Candidates had to 155 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: be law abiding citizens with good reputations, people who would 156 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: not be dismissed as disreputable, and who had nothing in 157 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: their background that could be that could become an easy 158 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: excuse for not taking their case seriously. Their first attempt 159 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: to break the separate car law was made by a 160 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: man named Daniel did Dunes, and he was a musician. 161 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: He was also the son of one of the members 162 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: of the committee, and he was one eighth black. He 163 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: boarded the first class car of a train on February 164 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 1: and then he told the conductor that he was colored. 165 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: He was removed from the train and arrested, but before 166 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: the case could go to trial, the charges against him 167 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: were dismissed because the state Supreme Court ruled in a 168 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: different case that state segregation laws couldn't apply to interstate travel. 169 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: Day Dune's tickets had been to Mobile, Alabama, so per 170 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: the Louisiana Supreme Court, that ride was regulated by federal 171 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: law and not state law. The committee had actually chosen 172 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: an interstate ticket on purpose, because they were hoping to 173 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: draw on interstate commerce commerce laws in the case. The 174 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 1: committee tried again, and this time the man breaking the 175 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: law was Homer Plessy, a thirty year old shoemaker. He 176 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: was also one eighth African American. One of his great 177 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: grandmothers had been black, and he had skin light enough 178 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: that he would not be questioned boarding the car. He 179 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: bought his first class ticket to Covington, Louisiana on the 180 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: East Louisiana Railroad, so that the whole trip would take 181 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: place within the borders of the state. Nobody raised any 182 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: questions when plus He boarded the first class car, and 183 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: different accounts vary and exactly how the conductor came to 184 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: know that he was legally a colored man and in 185 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: the wrong place, and some of the versions Plus he 186 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 1: just told him, and in others the conductor asked because 187 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: he knew that the Committee was sending someone to test 188 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: the segregation law that day, and in others the conductor 189 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: asked everyone in the car because it was part of 190 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: his job to confirm the race of all passengers and 191 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: that everyone was in the correct car on the train. 192 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: Regardless of how it played out, and this information came 193 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: to light, the train's conductor, J. J. Dowling asked Homer 194 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: Plessy to leave the train after learning his race, and 195 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: even though the law designated separate but equal cars, there 196 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: was not actually a car for black passengers on the 197 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: train that day. Plus he refused, he was arrested by 198 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: a private detective hired by the committee and jailed. Members 199 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: of the Citizens Committee pulled their money to bail Plusy 200 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: out Plessy's trial was set for October thirteenth, eight two. 201 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: James Walker, who we mentioned earlier, argued that his arrest 202 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: violated the thirteenth and fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution. Previous 203 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: court rulings had expanded on the interpretation of the thirteenth 204 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: Amendment not just to include literal slavery, but also quote 205 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: badges of slavery and service ude, which is how an 206 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: amendment that was set up to abolish slavery was being 207 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: applied to the matter of being segregated on a train. 208 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: But Lionel Adams, the attorney for the prosecution, argued that 209 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: the Separate Car Act reduced racial tension and so it 210 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: was actually good for the state. He also argued that 211 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: because the separate cars were equal, it was not discriminatory 212 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: to separate people into them by their race, although we're 213 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: not clear on how that applied given that there was 214 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: reportedly no actual car for black passengers on that particular train. 215 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: Judge John H. Ferguson ruled in favor of the prosecution 216 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: on November eighteen, and the next step in the case 217 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: was the appeal. But again, we're gonna pause for a 218 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: second for a word from a sponsor before we dig 219 00:12:53,640 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: into all of that juicy material. So let's let's go 220 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 1: back to the story, which at this point is going 221 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: to go to the Supreme Court. Plus, his case went 222 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: to the Louisiana Supreme Court first, which heard it on 223 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: November of that year. The arguments were essentially the same 224 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: as what had been argued in the court before, and 225 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: in what came as a surprise to no one, the 226 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: court ruled that the law was not discriminatory because it 227 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: applied equally to everyone. It would actually be four years 228 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: before the case would get to the U. S. Supreme Corps, and, 229 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: as he had promised when originally agreeing to work with 230 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: the Citizens Committee, Albion Tourge planned to argue the case 231 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: before the Supreme Court rather than appealing immediately. He actually 232 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: decided to take some time to try to raise funds 233 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: for the case and work out his strategy. In addition 234 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: to that, he and the committee were also hoping that 235 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: by delaying a little bit, they would find themselves before 236 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: a court that would see their case more favorably. Based 237 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: on decisions that the court had already issued, Justices eight 238 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: two were really not very likely to find that the 239 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: separate car law was unconstitutional. The President was just not 240 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: running in favor of this case. So the committee crossed 241 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: their fingers that some of the justices would be replaced 242 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: before they submitted their own case, and in eight two 243 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: Supreme Court justices died and new appointees took their place. However, 244 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: this did not look much better for Plessy in the 245 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: Citizens Committee than the previous court had. One of the 246 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: new justices was a former Confederate soldier and the other 247 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: had a reputation for being quite conservative. The new court 248 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: also set an immediate precedent of upholding other Jim Crow laws. Plus, 249 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: in just those couple of years, the overall racial climate 250 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: in the United States had gotten worse instead of better. So, 251 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: in spite of the fact that things seemed to be 252 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: kind of running against them towards a submitted the case, 253 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: which he prepared along with Walker and Samuel F. Phillips, 254 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: and he submitted it four review towards the end of eighteen. 255 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: The Supreme Court heard the case, which was now known 256 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: as plus E versus Ferguson, in eight nine six. In 257 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: the written briefs and oral arguments, Tourge and team argued 258 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: that the separate car law was unconstitutional, in several ways, 259 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: including the following. This is very much an abridged list, 260 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: but first up, it violated the Fourteenth Amendment from several 261 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: different angles by giving white citizens and colored citizens different 262 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: rights and protections under the law. Second, while proponents of 263 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: the law claimed it was for the comfort of both 264 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: black and white passengers, Tourge argued that it was really 265 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: for the comfort of white passengers at the expense of 266 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: black passengers, and therefore discriminatory. Second, while proponents of the 267 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: law claimed that it was for the comfort of both 268 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: black and white passengers, Tourge argued that it was really 269 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: for the comfort of white passengers at the expense of 270 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: black passengers, and therefore discriminatory. He also argued that the 271 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: law violated the fourteenth of then meants due process clause 272 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: by giving train conductors the power of law enforcement while 273 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: giving train passengers no legal recourse about decisions the conductors made. 274 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: And last that it created conditions of subjection and inferiority, 275 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: which previous court decisions had interpreted to be in violation 276 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: of the Thirteenth Amendment. Representing Louisiana's side was Alexander Peter Morse, 277 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: whose legal specialty was federal appeals He argued that the 278 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: separate car law was designed to prevent problems and serve 279 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: the common good, so, rather than making African American passengers 280 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: second class citizens, according to him, it actually protected them 281 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: from harassment and discrimination by white passengers. He also noted 282 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: several prior cases in which the Supreme Court had had 283 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: upheld States rights in the matter of segregation, and he 284 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: said that the rights at issue in the separate car 285 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: law were not civil rights at all. They were social 286 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: rights which are not constitutionally protected. The Supreme Court announced 287 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: its decision on May eighteenth. Of eight, Justice David J. 288 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: Brewer excused himself from participating because his daughter had just died, 289 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: and the remaining eight judges upheld the constitutionality of the 290 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: separate car law in a seven to one ruling. Henry 291 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: Billings Brown wrote the majority opinion, which dismissed the idea 292 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: that the separate car law violated the Thirteenth Amendment entirely. 293 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: He also cited several cases in which the Court had 294 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: upheld States rights to segregate, and he dismissed the idea 295 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: that providing separate facilities was inherently discriminatory. This is the thing, 296 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: he wrote on that point, we consider the underlying fallacy 297 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: of the plaintiff's argument to consist in the assumption that 298 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: the enforced separation of the two races stamps the colored 299 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: race with a badge of inferiority. If this be so, 300 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: it is not by reason of anything found in the Act, 301 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: but solely because the colored race chooses to put that 302 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: construct and upon it. So it goes on to say 303 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: that if quote, the colored race became the majority in 304 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: the state legislature and enacted the same law, that white 305 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: people would not think themselves inferior because of it. This 306 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: was the point where I had to stop reading Supreme 307 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: Court rulings and take a little break. That's probably for 308 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: the best in terms of your nual stability. There's a 309 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: lot that's really offensive in in the whole majority opinion, 310 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: and and the part where it's like this, you guys 311 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: are making a big deal out of it. This is 312 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: on you, not on us. That was the part that 313 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: made me like, uh, yes, I feel like they haven't 314 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: changed very much, because this feels like the stop playing 315 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 1: the race card of the late nineteenth century. So the 316 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: sole dissenter and all of this was John Marshall Harlan 317 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: who went against the majority with so much vigor that 318 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: he became known as the Great Dissenter. His dissent accurately 319 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: predicted what was going to happen next, which was the 320 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: States were going to you. Is this ruling as a 321 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: justification to enact a whole lot more segregation laws, uh, 322 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 1: and to be more blatantly districted, discriminatory, feeling like they 323 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: had the backing of the Supreme Court in doing so. 324 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: One of his statements goes like this quote, In my opinion, 325 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: the judgment this day rendered will in time proved to 326 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: be quite as pernicious as the decision made by this 327 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: tribunal in the dread Scott case. So if you're not 328 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: familiar with that one, that's dread Scott versus Sanford, when 329 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: dread Scott, who was a slave, sued for his freedom, 330 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: and the court decided that anyone with African ancestry, whether 331 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: they were a slave or free, was not intended to 332 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: be a citizen of the United States and therefore was 333 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: not entitled to bring such a suit in federal court. 334 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: The court also ruled that the federal government couldn't prohibit 335 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: slavery in territory that it had acquired after the United 336 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 1: States was founded. Harlan's dissent also argues strenuously against the 337 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: idea that segregation was good for race relations. To quote 338 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 1: s Exteam, millions of whites are in no danger from 339 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: the presence here of eight millions of blacks. The destinies 340 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: of the two races in this country are indissolubly linked together, 341 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: and the interests of both require that the common government 342 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: of all shall not permit the seeds of race hate 343 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: to be planted under the sanction of law. What can 344 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: more certainly arouse race hate, what more certainly create and 345 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: perpetuate a feeling of distrust between these races than state enactments, 346 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: which in fact proceed on the ground that colored citizens 347 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: are so far inferior and degraded that they cannot be 348 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: allowed to sit in public coaches occupied by white citizens. That, 349 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 1: as all will admit, is the real meaning of such 350 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: legislation as was enacted in Louisiana. Yeah, his whole tone 351 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: is basically, Uh, it's completely obvious to everyone that the 352 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: intent here is to subjugate an entire race of people, 353 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: and upholding this law is going to make it so 354 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: much worse. Today, us versus Ferguson is a pretty infamous 355 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: and notorious Supreme Court case, but at the time it 356 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: really did not make a lot of big news. The 357 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: reaction of a lot of the media and of the 358 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: majority as a whole was sort of well obviously um. Afterward, though, 359 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: states really did begin passing more and more segregation laws, 360 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: and in spite of the ruling being based on the 361 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: idea that things were separate but equal, a lot of 362 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: these separate facilities were not equal at all. They were 363 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: often massively and deliberately inferior that from the facilities for 364 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: white people, and a lot of people interpreted this ruling 365 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: to mean that all discrimination and everything was legal, not 366 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: just the separation of races into two separate but supposedly 367 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: equal facilities. And while most of these laws were passed 368 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: in the South, this was not exclusively a Southern phenomenon. 369 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: Of the segregation laws in the United States were in 370 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: the North, Midwest, and the West. And it also was 371 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: not just about segregating African Americans. In states with sizable 372 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: population of Asians, Mexicans, and Native Americans, for example, these 373 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: populations were segregated from the white population as well. Since 374 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court had upheld the previous verdict. Homer Plessi 375 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: then appeared before Judge Ferguson in Louisiana one more time 376 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: on January eleven. This was to plead guilty and to 377 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: pay his fine for violating the separate car law. He 378 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: spent the rest of his life working as a laborer 379 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: and then a clerk, and then eventually he became an 380 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: insurance salesman for an African American owned insurance company. Homer 381 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: Plessi died on March one. It would be almost sixty 382 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: years before this decision was overturned, and we're going to 383 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: talk about that, uh in another episode, and then in 384 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: another episode after that, we're going to talk about what 385 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: happened after it was overturned. Thanks so much for joining 386 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: us on this Saturday. Since this episode is out of 387 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: the archive, if you heard an email address or a 388 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: Facebook U r L or something similar over the course 389 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: of the show, that could be obsolete now. Our current 390 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: email address is History Podcast at I heart radio dot com. 391 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: Our old health stuff works email address no longer works, 392 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: and you can find us all over social media at 393 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: missed in History, and you can subscribe to our show 394 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts. The i heart Radio app 395 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: and wherever else you listen to podcasts. 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