1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:28,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. In the second half of the twentieth century, a 2 00:00:28,436 --> 00:00:32,356 Speaker 1: group of scientists became obsessed with an obscure family of viruses. 3 00:00:33,116 --> 00:00:36,676 Speaker 1: There weren't many people in the Obscure Virus Club. They 4 00:00:36,716 --> 00:00:40,516 Speaker 1: all knew each other. The rest of the world rolled 5 00:00:40,516 --> 00:00:41,396 Speaker 1: its eyes at them. 6 00:00:42,036 --> 00:00:42,676 Speaker 2: Read the letter. 7 00:00:43,036 --> 00:00:46,956 Speaker 3: Okay, dear Bob, I regret that your paper on the 8 00:00:46,996 --> 00:00:51,076 Speaker 3: T cell retrovirus is not acceptable for publication in the 9 00:00:51,156 --> 00:00:52,116 Speaker 3: Journal of Virology. 10 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:56,356 Speaker 1: Exhibit A in the archives of the Obscure Virus Club 11 00:00:56,796 --> 00:00:57,916 Speaker 1: are rejection letter. 12 00:00:58,316 --> 00:01:01,396 Speaker 3: I completely agree with reviewer number one. There's a little 13 00:01:01,436 --> 00:01:06,076 Speaker 3: point in perpetuating this controversy about the presumed viral nature 14 00:01:06,276 --> 00:01:07,076 Speaker 3: of this material. 15 00:01:08,116 --> 00:01:11,356 Speaker 1: Not thank you very much. This is fascinating, but you're 16 00:01:11,396 --> 00:01:12,316 Speaker 1: not quite there yet. 17 00:01:13,236 --> 00:01:14,076 Speaker 2: Just no. 18 00:01:14,956 --> 00:01:18,556 Speaker 3: I hope you'll understand. We can only accept definitive data 19 00:01:18,716 --> 00:01:22,076 Speaker 3: to resolve this question. Therefore, I have no alternative but 20 00:01:22,196 --> 00:01:25,956 Speaker 3: to reject this paper outright and advise you we cannot 21 00:01:26,036 --> 00:01:30,716 Speaker 3: consider the present manuscript in any form. 22 00:01:29,676 --> 00:01:33,396 Speaker 1: In any form. If you were in the Obscure Virus Club, 23 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:37,676 Speaker 1: you got this a lot. It didn't stop them, Thank god. 24 00:01:41,956 --> 00:01:45,316 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to revisionist History, 25 00:01:45,556 --> 00:01:54,356 Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is the 26 00:01:54,396 --> 00:01:58,876 Speaker 1: final episode of season four, a season of Jesuits and 27 00:01:58,996 --> 00:02:06,116 Speaker 1: lawyers and gangsters and disputatious musicians, iconoclass and skeptics, and 28 00:02:06,156 --> 00:02:08,596 Speaker 1: I want to finish with the story of the Obscure 29 00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:13,276 Speaker 1: Virus Club, maybe the biggest band of iconoclasts of all. 30 00:02:13,476 --> 00:02:17,036 Speaker 1: This is a bedtime story for this season of Revisionist History, 31 00:02:17,516 --> 00:02:20,116 Speaker 1: and as with any story, you have to wait till 32 00:02:20,116 --> 00:02:28,556 Speaker 1: the very end to understand what it's all about. The 33 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:33,356 Speaker 1: Obscure Virus Club had adjunct members, honorary members, hangers on, 34 00:02:33,996 --> 00:02:36,316 Speaker 1: but I want to focus on the three people at 35 00:02:36,316 --> 00:02:43,916 Speaker 1: its core. Ludwig Gross, Howard Temmen, Robert Gallo. Bob Gallo 36 00:02:44,396 --> 00:02:46,996 Speaker 1: is the only one still alive, eighty two years old, 37 00:02:47,356 --> 00:02:50,516 Speaker 1: still at the office every day. He has pictures of 38 00:02:50,556 --> 00:02:52,516 Speaker 1: his old compatriots on his walls. 39 00:02:52,956 --> 00:02:55,916 Speaker 2: I think he sent this to me. Oh there he is, wife, Yeah, 40 00:02:56,076 --> 00:02:59,636 Speaker 2: oh yeah. This is just, you know, unforgettable character. But 41 00:02:59,716 --> 00:03:02,316 Speaker 2: that captures him, you know. Yeah. 42 00:03:02,556 --> 00:03:06,996 Speaker 1: First Ludwig Gross, head of cancer research for the Veterans Administration. 43 00:03:07,116 --> 00:03:11,356 Speaker 1: In the Bronx members asking him whether he wanted to 44 00:03:11,396 --> 00:03:15,116 Speaker 1: get rich, Gross told him no, he had everything he 45 00:03:15,196 --> 00:03:19,236 Speaker 1: needed and he counted it off. First, he had his car. 46 00:03:19,596 --> 00:03:22,916 Speaker 1: He'd escaped Poland in his car after the Nazis invaded. 47 00:03:23,436 --> 00:03:24,316 Speaker 2: He drove everywhere. 48 00:03:24,316 --> 00:03:26,556 Speaker 3: When he came to see me at nih drop from 49 00:03:26,596 --> 00:03:30,356 Speaker 3: New York Communion, his first experiments were in the backseat 50 00:03:30,876 --> 00:03:34,796 Speaker 3: Trump what is called soa said number two, I have 51 00:03:34,956 --> 00:03:37,116 Speaker 3: my television. I can see Perry Mason. He was a 52 00:03:37,156 --> 00:03:40,996 Speaker 3: Craig Mason, adding number three, I had my work, and 53 00:03:41,116 --> 00:03:42,676 Speaker 3: number four I had my wife. 54 00:03:44,676 --> 00:03:46,556 Speaker 2: That's a load of bit Gross. 55 00:03:47,196 --> 00:03:50,876 Speaker 1: At scientific meetings in the nineteen fifties, people wouldn't sit 56 00:03:50,996 --> 00:03:58,156 Speaker 1: next to ludbit Gross. Everyone thought he was crazy. Next 57 00:03:58,276 --> 00:04:02,156 Speaker 1: came the ringleader of the Obscure Virus Club, Howard Temmen, 58 00:04:02,836 --> 00:04:04,516 Speaker 1: the remarkable Howard Tenmen. 59 00:04:05,236 --> 00:04:06,956 Speaker 2: Really, wait, can you do the intention of this one? 60 00:04:06,996 --> 00:04:07,076 Speaker 1: Man? 61 00:04:07,156 --> 00:04:10,476 Speaker 3: I can do it right now if you get. 62 00:04:10,076 --> 00:04:14,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, Vernon, where are the controls? 63 00:04:14,396 --> 00:04:17,156 Speaker 4: You don't have any damn controls? 64 00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:20,756 Speaker 3: And you're making too many things. 65 00:04:21,676 --> 00:04:23,316 Speaker 2: With the hair like you the same hair. 66 00:04:23,316 --> 00:04:29,276 Speaker 1: Nke Howard Temmen, Ludwig Gross, Robert Gallo. And what did 67 00:04:29,276 --> 00:04:30,116 Speaker 1: they have in common? 68 00:04:30,796 --> 00:04:32,636 Speaker 3: I mean, what's in common is we got pissed on. 69 00:04:33,636 --> 00:04:35,716 Speaker 2: We all had our time of horror, I would. 70 00:04:35,556 --> 00:04:40,796 Speaker 1: Say, three scientists shunned by their peers. That was the 71 00:04:40,836 --> 00:04:47,916 Speaker 1: price of admission to the Obscure Virus Club. In nineteen eleven, 72 00:04:48,156 --> 00:04:52,236 Speaker 1: a young physician named Francis Peyton Rouse set up a 73 00:04:52,276 --> 00:04:55,196 Speaker 1: cancer research laboratory in New York at what is now 74 00:04:55,316 --> 00:04:59,436 Speaker 1: Rockefeller University. A woman came to see Rouse. She had 75 00:04:59,476 --> 00:05:02,476 Speaker 1: a poultry farm just outside the city, and she brought 76 00:05:02,476 --> 00:05:05,276 Speaker 1: with her a hen with a large lump on its chest. 77 00:05:05,916 --> 00:05:09,436 Speaker 1: The lump was cancer, a sarcoma that is a tumor 78 00:05:09,476 --> 00:05:13,116 Speaker 1: of the connective tissue. We don't know why a cancer 79 00:05:13,156 --> 00:05:16,316 Speaker 1: doctor would be curious about a dying chicken, but he was. 80 00:05:17,396 --> 00:05:21,676 Speaker 1: Rous removed the tumor, grounded up, mixed it with saline solution, 81 00:05:22,076 --> 00:05:26,156 Speaker 1: and injected the solution into healthy chickens. And what happened. 82 00:05:26,916 --> 00:05:32,396 Speaker 1: The healthy chickens developed the same tumors. Rous was perplexed. 83 00:05:32,876 --> 00:05:35,996 Speaker 1: Cancer is not supposed to be a communicable disease. It's 84 00:05:35,996 --> 00:05:39,116 Speaker 1: caused by a malfunction of the genetic machinery inside a cell. 85 00:05:39,636 --> 00:05:42,276 Speaker 1: It can't be passed from one person to another like 86 00:05:42,316 --> 00:05:46,036 Speaker 1: the flu. But this is exactly what seemed to be happening. 87 00:05:46,596 --> 00:05:50,476 Speaker 1: The chicken's tumor, Rouse concluded had to be caused by 88 00:05:50,516 --> 00:05:54,636 Speaker 1: a virus. People didn't believe him. They said, well, maybe 89 00:05:54,636 --> 00:05:57,996 Speaker 1: that tumor isn't really cancer, or so what this is 90 00:05:58,116 --> 00:06:01,996 Speaker 1: just some weird thing that happens with chickens. Rouse got discouraged. 91 00:06:02,436 --> 00:06:07,956 Speaker 1: He stopped working on viruses entirely. Years later, this same problem, 92 00:06:08,076 --> 00:06:11,276 Speaker 1: whether cancer could bread like a virus, came to obsess 93 00:06:11,396 --> 00:06:15,756 Speaker 1: Ludwig Gross. He worked with mice. Sometimes mice came down 94 00:06:15,796 --> 00:06:20,156 Speaker 1: with leukemia, murine leukemia, which is a lot like human leukemia. 95 00:06:20,916 --> 00:06:24,076 Speaker 1: Gross spread mice to show how the disease was communicated 96 00:06:24,116 --> 00:06:28,036 Speaker 1: from one generation to the next. He became convinced that 97 00:06:28,036 --> 00:06:31,556 Speaker 1: the leukemia was caused by a virus passed from mother 98 00:06:31,636 --> 00:06:36,196 Speaker 1: to offspring. But the same thing happened. Other scientists didn't 99 00:06:36,196 --> 00:06:39,636 Speaker 1: believe him. Here was this strange emigree in the bronx, 100 00:06:39,996 --> 00:06:44,356 Speaker 1: imagining cancer causing viruses in mice. Why couldn't that just 101 00:06:44,436 --> 00:06:46,876 Speaker 1: be a set of faulty genes being passed down. 102 00:06:47,316 --> 00:06:48,796 Speaker 2: He proved it was viral disease. 103 00:06:49,316 --> 00:06:52,356 Speaker 3: But everybody's ah, you know that his cages are filthy, 104 00:06:52,396 --> 00:06:55,636 Speaker 3: and it has no technology whatsoever. It is you know, 105 00:06:55,716 --> 00:06:58,636 Speaker 3: really what he's doing. You know, it was all bad mouth, 106 00:06:58,676 --> 00:07:01,916 Speaker 3: completely essentially virtually destroyed. 107 00:07:02,876 --> 00:07:05,716 Speaker 1: Gross finally won the Lasca Award, one of the most 108 00:07:05,756 --> 00:07:10,116 Speaker 1: prestigious prizes in medicine, in nineteen seventy four when he 109 00:07:10,156 --> 00:07:14,196 Speaker 1: was seventy. In the Obscure Virus Club, you often had 110 00:07:14,196 --> 00:07:19,676 Speaker 1: to wait your entire career for validation. After Gross comes 111 00:07:19,716 --> 00:07:24,196 Speaker 1: Howard Tenman, the remarkable Howard Temman. Timman was the second 112 00:07:24,196 --> 00:07:27,156 Speaker 1: of three sons of a lawyer and an activist from Philadelphia. 113 00:07:27,796 --> 00:07:30,916 Speaker 1: The biologist David Baltimore met Temmen when they were both 114 00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:34,276 Speaker 1: part of the student summer program at the Jackson Laboratory 115 00:07:34,316 --> 00:07:35,276 Speaker 1: in Maine. 116 00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:37,676 Speaker 5: If you had a question or there was a lecture 117 00:07:37,676 --> 00:07:40,236 Speaker 5: and you didn't understand something, you could. 118 00:07:39,996 --> 00:07:40,516 Speaker 1: Go to Howard. 119 00:07:40,556 --> 00:07:45,076 Speaker 5: And Howard knew everything. He was an amazing intellect, and 120 00:07:45,156 --> 00:07:49,956 Speaker 5: so I spent the summer in a sense as his student. 121 00:07:50,756 --> 00:07:53,716 Speaker 5: He was famous at Swarthmore actually because they said he 122 00:07:53,756 --> 00:07:55,596 Speaker 5: had read every book in the library and they had 123 00:07:55,636 --> 00:08:01,156 Speaker 5: to buy more for him. I mean, I wasn't the 124 00:08:01,196 --> 00:08:03,836 Speaker 5: only one to notice that there was something very special 125 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:05,116 Speaker 5: about him. 126 00:08:06,076 --> 00:08:09,316 Speaker 1: This is the kind of person he was. Tenman donated 127 00:08:09,316 --> 00:08:12,876 Speaker 1: his bar Mitzvah money to a refugee camp. Years later, 128 00:08:13,116 --> 00:08:16,276 Speaker 1: when he visited the Soviet Union, he smuggled in Hebrew 129 00:08:16,356 --> 00:08:19,596 Speaker 1: prayer books. I met Temmen once when I was a 130 00:08:19,596 --> 00:08:22,596 Speaker 1: cub reporter for the Washington Post. I happened to be 131 00:08:22,636 --> 00:08:25,836 Speaker 1: in Madison, Wisconsin, at the University of Wisconsin, where he 132 00:08:25,876 --> 00:08:29,076 Speaker 1: taught his whole career. I went to see him. I 133 00:08:29,116 --> 00:08:32,036 Speaker 1: don't remember the specifics of what he talked about, and 134 00:08:32,076 --> 00:08:36,276 Speaker 1: I've lost my notes. What I remember with absolute clarity 135 00:08:36,676 --> 00:08:39,916 Speaker 1: is the feeling I had after leaving his office, which 136 00:08:39,916 --> 00:08:42,716 Speaker 1: is that I had never met someone so completely in 137 00:08:42,756 --> 00:08:46,196 Speaker 1: command of his own thinking. I've only ever gotten that 138 00:08:46,276 --> 00:08:50,996 Speaker 1: sense of command of mastery from watching great athletes, never 139 00:08:51,116 --> 00:08:56,916 Speaker 1: biologists with squeaky voices. Temmen's wife, Rayla says that when 140 00:08:56,956 --> 00:08:59,796 Speaker 1: Temmen first got to Wisconsin, he would sit in on 141 00:08:59,916 --> 00:09:02,116 Speaker 1: seminars in other departments. 142 00:09:02,036 --> 00:09:06,396 Speaker 6: And as soon as he got here, he drew attention 143 00:09:06,516 --> 00:09:08,996 Speaker 6: of people because he would sit up in the front 144 00:09:09,156 --> 00:09:13,636 Speaker 6: and then he would ask the most pointed, brilliant, important 145 00:09:13,716 --> 00:09:16,956 Speaker 6: questions of the speaker. So everyone said, well, who is he? 146 00:09:17,036 --> 00:09:17,596 Speaker 6: Who is he? 147 00:09:18,436 --> 00:09:22,276 Speaker 1: But once you met Howard Temmen, you remembered Howard temen. 148 00:09:24,276 --> 00:09:27,596 Speaker 1: One of his former graduate students, Sandy Weller, says she 149 00:09:27,636 --> 00:09:29,116 Speaker 1: could barely keep up with him. 150 00:09:29,396 --> 00:09:32,036 Speaker 4: He rode his bike to work every day he took 151 00:09:32,116 --> 00:09:34,196 Speaker 4: He never took the elevator. If he had to go 152 00:09:34,196 --> 00:09:37,596 Speaker 4: to the ninth floor, he walked ninth floors, and several 153 00:09:37,596 --> 00:09:39,676 Speaker 4: times he made me do that, or he just assumed 154 00:09:39,676 --> 00:09:41,076 Speaker 4: I would do that with him if we were going 155 00:09:41,156 --> 00:09:42,876 Speaker 4: up to the seminar on the ninth floor. 156 00:09:43,836 --> 00:09:47,316 Speaker 1: Temman could have done anything, walked into any field in 157 00:09:47,436 --> 00:09:51,156 Speaker 1: science and left his mark. But he became obsessed by 158 00:09:51,156 --> 00:09:54,796 Speaker 1: the chicken tumor that Peyton Rouse had discovered fifty years earlier, 159 00:09:55,276 --> 00:09:57,396 Speaker 1: now known as rous sarcoma virus. 160 00:09:57,996 --> 00:10:02,756 Speaker 7: And so what I was interested in doing was understanding 161 00:10:02,756 --> 00:10:04,636 Speaker 7: how that virus closes cancel. 162 00:10:05,676 --> 00:10:08,396 Speaker 1: That's tenmen in an oral history taken a few years 163 00:10:08,396 --> 00:10:12,396 Speaker 1: before his death in the nineteen fifties. You could not 164 00:10:12,516 --> 00:10:15,076 Speaker 1: have picked a more obscure topic to study than a 165 00:10:15,116 --> 00:10:19,756 Speaker 1: cancer virus. People were still avoiding Ludwig Gross at conferences. 166 00:10:20,076 --> 00:10:23,436 Speaker 1: The University of Wisconsin had a virology position open at 167 00:10:23,436 --> 00:10:26,076 Speaker 1: their cancer institute. No one wanted it. 168 00:10:27,156 --> 00:10:30,196 Speaker 3: You said when you came to Wisconsin that the virology 169 00:10:30,196 --> 00:10:32,676 Speaker 3: position had been offered to several people, and they hadn't 170 00:10:32,716 --> 00:10:33,396 Speaker 3: been interested. 171 00:10:33,596 --> 00:10:35,916 Speaker 2: How come these people had turned down the position. 172 00:10:36,636 --> 00:10:40,516 Speaker 7: Viruses at that time were not considered very important in 173 00:10:41,196 --> 00:10:46,076 Speaker 7: cancer research. They had always been a side show for 174 00:10:46,396 --> 00:10:47,596 Speaker 7: cancer research. 175 00:10:48,076 --> 00:10:51,596 Speaker 1: His first office at Wisconsin was in the basement next 176 00:10:51,636 --> 00:10:52,996 Speaker 1: to the sump pump. 177 00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:59,156 Speaker 7: And my office was in what had been a transfer room, 178 00:10:59,516 --> 00:11:03,316 Speaker 7: a little isolated room about the size of just where 179 00:11:03,356 --> 00:11:05,516 Speaker 7: you're sitting, a couple of square feet. 180 00:11:06,396 --> 00:11:10,796 Speaker 1: But none of that mattered. Tenman was hooked. Raus's sarcoma 181 00:11:11,076 --> 00:11:14,836 Speaker 1: was a weird, enthralling puzzle. He began to notice all 182 00:11:14,916 --> 00:11:19,196 Speaker 1: kinds of anomalies. For example, sometimes the virus would mutate, 183 00:11:19,556 --> 00:11:21,916 Speaker 1: it would take on a strange new shape, and then 184 00:11:21,956 --> 00:11:25,116 Speaker 1: afterwards the cell it infected would take on the same 185 00:11:25,276 --> 00:11:29,196 Speaker 1: strange shape, as if the virus weren't just occupying the 186 00:11:29,236 --> 00:11:32,676 Speaker 1: cell it infected the way say a flu virus does. 187 00:11:33,036 --> 00:11:37,036 Speaker 1: The flu just sits inside your cells, multiplying until your 188 00:11:37,036 --> 00:11:40,356 Speaker 1: immune system drives it out. The flu is a squatter, 189 00:11:41,196 --> 00:11:44,316 Speaker 1: but rous sarcoma seemed like it was conquering the cells 190 00:11:44,356 --> 00:11:48,556 Speaker 1: it was infecting, inserting its own genetic information into the 191 00:11:48,636 --> 00:11:52,356 Speaker 1: DNA of its host. How it did that made no sense. 192 00:11:53,036 --> 00:11:56,236 Speaker 1: At the time, the field of genetics had something scientists 193 00:11:56,236 --> 00:12:00,396 Speaker 1: called the central dogma. The central dogma held that genetic 194 00:12:00,436 --> 00:12:06,436 Speaker 1: information only moved in one direction. DNA gave instructions to RNA, 195 00:12:06,956 --> 00:12:12,436 Speaker 1: which then used those instructions to make proteins DNA to RNA. 196 00:12:13,036 --> 00:12:17,556 Speaker 1: Rous sarcoma was an RNA virus. According to the central dogma, 197 00:12:17,596 --> 00:12:21,076 Speaker 1: then it was impossible for it to insert its genetic 198 00:12:21,156 --> 00:12:23,756 Speaker 1: information into the DNA of the cells that was infecting. 199 00:12:24,796 --> 00:12:26,596 Speaker 1: RNA didn't move in that direction. 200 00:12:26,956 --> 00:12:30,236 Speaker 5: We knew the basic lifestyle of most viruses, but now 201 00:12:30,316 --> 00:12:34,956 Speaker 5: the cancer inducing viruses stood out as different than and 202 00:12:35,556 --> 00:12:36,396 Speaker 5: hard to understand. 203 00:12:36,676 --> 00:12:39,716 Speaker 1: David Baltimore again, what was different and hard to understand 204 00:12:39,716 --> 00:12:41,396 Speaker 1: about them? 205 00:12:41,636 --> 00:12:46,356 Speaker 5: Well, the fundamental thing was that they had RNA as 206 00:12:46,396 --> 00:12:50,156 Speaker 5: their genome, and yet they were able to establish a 207 00:12:50,676 --> 00:12:54,356 Speaker 5: permanent position inside the cell and run the cell. So 208 00:12:54,356 --> 00:12:56,836 Speaker 5: he turned it from a normal cell to a cancer cell. 209 00:12:57,196 --> 00:12:59,996 Speaker 5: And so here it was behaving a bit like DNA, 210 00:13:00,356 --> 00:13:04,316 Speaker 5: and yet it was an RNA virus, and that didn't 211 00:13:04,356 --> 00:13:08,796 Speaker 5: make sense. Howard had been driven by that question for 212 00:13:09,236 --> 00:13:10,476 Speaker 5: ten years previously. 213 00:13:12,516 --> 00:13:15,956 Speaker 1: David Baltimore watched his old friend Howard Temmen stand up 214 00:13:15,996 --> 00:13:19,076 Speaker 1: at conferences and try to convince everyone else to take 215 00:13:19,116 --> 00:13:22,996 Speaker 1: this weird anomaly seriously. Why did that question assume such 216 00:13:23,556 --> 00:13:24,756 Speaker 1: importance for him. 217 00:13:24,716 --> 00:13:27,036 Speaker 5: Well, because he was thinking twenty four hours a day 218 00:13:27,556 --> 00:13:29,036 Speaker 5: about these viruses. 219 00:13:29,556 --> 00:13:33,156 Speaker 1: As he obsessed over the puzzle of Rous's sarcoma, Temmen 220 00:13:33,236 --> 00:13:36,836 Speaker 1: decided it could only mean one thing. The central dogma 221 00:13:36,996 --> 00:13:40,596 Speaker 1: must be wrong. One of the fundamental facts about human 222 00:13:40,636 --> 00:13:45,396 Speaker 1: genetics taught in every science textbook and every science classroom 223 00:13:45,516 --> 00:13:49,356 Speaker 1: in the world, had to be in error. There must 224 00:13:49,396 --> 00:13:52,476 Speaker 1: be a class of viruses like Rous's sarcoma virus that 225 00:13:52,556 --> 00:13:57,996 Speaker 1: could somehow work backwards from RNA to DNA. It was 226 00:13:58,036 --> 00:14:01,596 Speaker 1: as if he said, yes, the Earth rotates around the 227 00:14:01,636 --> 00:14:04,796 Speaker 1: Sun in an anti clockwise manner, but the only explanation 228 00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:08,036 Speaker 1: for what I'm seeing with Rous is that on occasion 229 00:14:08,516 --> 00:14:10,756 Speaker 1: the Earth must stop and go clockwise. 230 00:14:11,676 --> 00:14:15,396 Speaker 5: And then he spent about ten years at University of 231 00:14:15,396 --> 00:14:19,956 Speaker 5: Wisconsin trying to find an experiment that would convince anybody 232 00:14:19,956 --> 00:14:22,396 Speaker 5: else of that, and he couldn't. 233 00:14:23,916 --> 00:14:27,956 Speaker 1: Temen had an intuition, a hunch, but no one was 234 00:14:27,996 --> 00:14:31,156 Speaker 1: going to overturn the central dogma because some guy from 235 00:14:31,196 --> 00:14:47,156 Speaker 1: Wisconsin had a hunch it wasn't right. Science is a 236 00:14:47,196 --> 00:14:51,236 Speaker 1: social process. People within a field are in constant contact. 237 00:14:51,516 --> 00:14:54,716 Speaker 1: They share notes, they gossip, They compete for the brightest 238 00:14:54,756 --> 00:14:58,836 Speaker 1: graduate students, for grant money, for prizes. When you say 239 00:14:58,876 --> 00:15:01,756 Speaker 1: something that the group doesn't believe, you pay a price. 240 00:15:02,436 --> 00:15:05,116 Speaker 1: And with every year that passes with you saying one 241 00:15:05,156 --> 00:15:08,356 Speaker 1: thing and the group saying another, the price gets higher. 242 00:15:09,236 --> 00:15:11,636 Speaker 8: First of all, people thought he was crazy. I mean, 243 00:15:11,676 --> 00:15:16,076 Speaker 8: he didn't prove his theory for six years after proposing it. 244 00:15:16,476 --> 00:15:19,276 Speaker 1: Temen's former graduate student Sandy Weller. 245 00:15:19,396 --> 00:15:22,236 Speaker 8: And that six years was a very difficult period for 246 00:15:22,556 --> 00:15:26,436 Speaker 8: all of his students, and for him. He was a pariah. 247 00:15:26,636 --> 00:15:28,956 Speaker 8: They thought his students were nuts for working with him. 248 00:15:29,396 --> 00:15:33,916 Speaker 1: At one point, Howard Tenmen wrote Francis Krick, Sir Francis Krick, 249 00:15:34,436 --> 00:15:38,516 Speaker 1: Nobel Prize winner of Watson and Krick, the co discoverers 250 00:15:38,556 --> 00:15:43,356 Speaker 1: of DNA, the authors of the central dogma itself. Temmen 251 00:15:43,556 --> 00:15:47,356 Speaker 1: writes Krick a letter gently suggesting that an amendment to 252 00:15:47,396 --> 00:15:49,116 Speaker 1: the Central Dogma might be in order. 253 00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 8: Quick writes back, very condescending, arrogant letter. Well, I'm sure 254 00:15:53,276 --> 00:15:56,436 Speaker 8: you think this is true, but you must realize you're wrong, 255 00:15:57,036 --> 00:15:59,876 Speaker 8: And to talk like that to Howard, to me, that's 256 00:15:59,996 --> 00:16:00,676 Speaker 8: just such. 257 00:16:00,476 --> 00:16:03,796 Speaker 1: A Most people would have given up, but he doesn't 258 00:16:04,156 --> 00:16:05,356 Speaker 1: because he's Howard Temman. 259 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:08,116 Speaker 9: The word that it comes to mind is righteous, which 260 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:11,396 Speaker 9: has a negative of down to it. I don't mean 261 00:16:11,396 --> 00:16:12,076 Speaker 9: to be negative. 262 00:16:12,516 --> 00:16:14,396 Speaker 1: This is Timens's daughter, Miriam. 263 00:16:14,676 --> 00:16:18,916 Speaker 9: But he had his strong moral compass and was incredibly, 264 00:16:19,036 --> 00:16:23,156 Speaker 9: incredibly confident person was blessed with that and so was 265 00:16:23,156 --> 00:16:27,196 Speaker 9: not shy about speaking his mind. 266 00:16:27,676 --> 00:16:29,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, where do you think that? 267 00:16:29,956 --> 00:16:31,716 Speaker 1: What was the source of his confidence? 268 00:16:32,356 --> 00:16:37,076 Speaker 9: That's what I asked my uncle Michael Temman the source 269 00:16:37,116 --> 00:16:40,276 Speaker 9: of his stick with itness was And his answer was, well, 270 00:16:40,316 --> 00:16:40,836 Speaker 9: he knew. 271 00:16:40,636 --> 00:16:41,116 Speaker 4: He was right. 272 00:16:41,916 --> 00:16:44,836 Speaker 1: And then one day in nineteen seventy, he came home 273 00:16:44,876 --> 00:16:47,036 Speaker 1: to his wife, Raila, full of excitement. 274 00:16:47,636 --> 00:16:51,396 Speaker 6: He was going to be away on our anniversary, which 275 00:16:51,476 --> 00:16:55,716 Speaker 6: was May twenty seventh, and he was explaining why he 276 00:16:55,836 --> 00:16:58,916 Speaker 6: had to leave and that we would celebrate later. I said, well, 277 00:16:58,956 --> 00:17:03,996 Speaker 6: that's fine, that's fine, and he said that actually he 278 00:17:04,116 --> 00:17:07,756 Speaker 6: had something that was a bombshell that he was going 279 00:17:07,796 --> 00:17:11,156 Speaker 6: to announce at the meeting, but he couldn't tell me 280 00:17:11,356 --> 00:17:11,956 Speaker 6: what it was. 281 00:17:13,476 --> 00:17:17,756 Speaker 1: She said, let me guess you found it. He nodded. 282 00:17:18,396 --> 00:17:21,596 Speaker 1: After years of trying, Temmen had located the part of 283 00:17:21,596 --> 00:17:26,876 Speaker 1: the virus that enabled it to work backwards, and by 284 00:17:26,916 --> 00:17:30,956 Speaker 1: an incredible stroke, his old friend David Baltimore had found 285 00:17:30,996 --> 00:17:35,116 Speaker 1: it too. By then, Baltimore had fashioned his own equally 286 00:17:35,156 --> 00:17:39,636 Speaker 1: brilliant career. At almost exactly the same moment, the two 287 00:17:39,676 --> 00:17:43,956 Speaker 1: old friends independently discover a little enzyme looking in a 288 00:17:43,996 --> 00:17:48,916 Speaker 1: distant corner of this strange class of RNA viruses an interpreter, 289 00:17:49,676 --> 00:17:54,156 Speaker 1: something that speaks RNA and can translate into DNA, so 290 00:17:54,196 --> 00:17:56,876 Speaker 1: that the virus had a mechanism for inserting its own 291 00:17:56,916 --> 00:18:02,116 Speaker 1: genetic information into the cells it infected. Temmen finds the 292 00:18:02,276 --> 00:18:06,516 Speaker 1: enzyme in rous sarcoma virus. Baltimore went looking for it 293 00:18:06,636 --> 00:18:10,636 Speaker 1: in mouse leukemia virus, the samevirus that had haunted Ludwig 294 00:18:10,676 --> 00:18:16,236 Speaker 1: gross Temen and Baltimore call it reverse transcript tase, and 295 00:18:16,316 --> 00:18:19,116 Speaker 1: the class of viruses that had obsessed them all for 296 00:18:19,156 --> 00:18:24,476 Speaker 1: so long now had a name retroviruses, because by virtue 297 00:18:24,516 --> 00:18:28,116 Speaker 1: of their onboard translator, they had the ability to work 298 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:32,916 Speaker 1: in reverse. How hard was it to find this particular enzyme? 299 00:18:32,996 --> 00:18:33,116 Speaker 3: Is that? 300 00:18:33,436 --> 00:18:34,076 Speaker 1: Is it trivial? 301 00:18:34,796 --> 00:18:34,956 Speaker 3: Oh? 302 00:18:34,996 --> 00:18:35,276 Speaker 2: Really? 303 00:18:35,796 --> 00:18:37,516 Speaker 1: It's really the notion of. 304 00:18:37,556 --> 00:18:39,636 Speaker 5: Two days of experiments. Two days. 305 00:18:41,276 --> 00:18:43,916 Speaker 1: So it's just the idea of knowing where to look 306 00:18:44,556 --> 00:18:46,196 Speaker 1: and what to look for, and what to look for. 307 00:18:47,316 --> 00:18:51,876 Speaker 1: You have to design, very specifically design your search so 308 00:18:51,956 --> 00:18:54,436 Speaker 1: that it will show up this enzyme. If you don't 309 00:18:54,796 --> 00:18:56,676 Speaker 1: look in exactly the right way, you're not going to 310 00:18:56,716 --> 00:19:02,636 Speaker 1: spot it right. Just like that, the great puzzle was resolved. 311 00:19:04,556 --> 00:19:07,516 Speaker 5: When I got to the point where I knew that 312 00:19:08,116 --> 00:19:11,236 Speaker 5: the enzyme was in the virus particle. The first thing 313 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:14,236 Speaker 5: I did was to call Howard and say, I want 314 00:19:14,276 --> 00:19:15,076 Speaker 5: to tell you about this. 315 00:19:15,716 --> 00:19:16,916 Speaker 1: How did he respond? 316 00:19:17,716 --> 00:19:20,156 Speaker 5: He responded by saying, we're doing those experiments too. 317 00:19:24,036 --> 00:19:27,836 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy, Baltimore and Tenmen jointly publish a famous 318 00:19:27,876 --> 00:19:31,916 Speaker 1: series of papers in the prestigious journal Nature. Five years later, 319 00:19:32,076 --> 00:19:35,436 Speaker 1: they were awarded the Nobel Prize along with their old teacher. 320 00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:39,116 Speaker 1: We're not odel Becco. Temmen trades in his two first 321 00:19:39,116 --> 00:19:42,156 Speaker 1: class tickets to Sweden for coach seats so he can 322 00:19:42,196 --> 00:19:43,436 Speaker 1: take along as two daughters. 323 00:19:43,756 --> 00:19:46,156 Speaker 9: Well it's always seven. When he got the Nobel Prize, 324 00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:48,236 Speaker 9: and one of the things I remember is that his 325 00:19:48,396 --> 00:19:50,396 Speaker 9: pants were too long and they were sort of all 326 00:19:50,436 --> 00:19:52,916 Speaker 9: bunched around the bottom. 327 00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:56,116 Speaker 2: Of his talks at the ceremony. Yes, did you go 328 00:19:56,196 --> 00:19:57,716 Speaker 2: to the ceremony? Yes, oh you did. 329 00:19:57,956 --> 00:20:01,316 Speaker 9: Yes, I kind of remember, meaning the king, and I 330 00:20:01,516 --> 00:20:07,876 Speaker 9: definitely remember a banquet, very very fancy in this enormous 331 00:20:07,956 --> 00:20:12,916 Speaker 9: wide staircase where the laureates came down and their spouses 332 00:20:12,956 --> 00:20:16,036 Speaker 9: all paired with somebody else. So my father had a 333 00:20:16,276 --> 00:20:18,636 Speaker 9: I believe a Danish princess on her arm, if I'm 334 00:20:18,636 --> 00:20:22,236 Speaker 9: remembering correctly, in a long pink dress. I remember that. 335 00:20:22,316 --> 00:20:25,356 Speaker 9: And my mother was escorted by some lesser prince person 336 00:20:26,556 --> 00:20:29,156 Speaker 9: and the waiters, you know, all in this procession with 337 00:20:29,196 --> 00:20:30,476 Speaker 9: the most beautiful food. 338 00:20:31,236 --> 00:20:34,476 Speaker 1: It was the seventy fifth anniversary of the Nobel Prize, 339 00:20:34,676 --> 00:20:38,116 Speaker 1: so all previous laureates were invited. There was a huge 340 00:20:38,236 --> 00:20:42,796 Speaker 1: banquet in the Golden Hall. By tradition, one representative from 341 00:20:42,836 --> 00:20:46,636 Speaker 1: each set of new laureates was allowed to speak. Temen 342 00:20:46,796 --> 00:20:50,836 Speaker 1: was chosen. He stood up with his baggy tuxedo trousers 343 00:20:51,196 --> 00:20:52,516 Speaker 1: and his squeaky. 344 00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:55,076 Speaker 6: Voice, and he went up to the microphone in front 345 00:20:55,116 --> 00:20:59,396 Speaker 6: of these twelve hundred people and thanked them very very 346 00:20:59,516 --> 00:21:03,556 Speaker 6: much for the prize you have given us. For cancer research. 347 00:21:04,196 --> 00:21:07,156 Speaker 1: His wife, Reyla was sitting in the audience with their daughters, 348 00:21:07,836 --> 00:21:11,596 Speaker 1: and then Temen said, here, we are being rewarded for 349 00:21:11,676 --> 00:21:15,436 Speaker 1: our work in understanding cancer, and you're all smoking. 350 00:21:15,996 --> 00:21:19,396 Speaker 6: The King was smoking, the Queen was smoking. Everybody there 351 00:21:19,476 --> 00:21:23,036 Speaker 6: was smoking. So they were just a gaus that he 352 00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:25,356 Speaker 6: would get up and say that hat in front of 353 00:21:25,956 --> 00:21:26,956 Speaker 6: all the royalty. 354 00:21:27,236 --> 00:21:28,556 Speaker 1: Did they put out their cigarettes? 355 00:21:29,276 --> 00:21:29,396 Speaker 9: Uh? 356 00:21:29,476 --> 00:21:32,276 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think many of them did, because I was 357 00:21:32,356 --> 00:21:34,756 Speaker 6: down in the floor on the table. I was sitting 358 00:21:34,796 --> 00:21:37,836 Speaker 6: next to the Prince of Denmark, was my partner that night, 359 00:21:38,676 --> 00:21:42,156 Speaker 6: and I looked and they people just looked shocked when 360 00:21:42,156 --> 00:21:44,476 Speaker 6: he said it. I remember the look on the faces. 361 00:21:44,516 --> 00:21:46,556 Speaker 6: And then they stubbed out the cigarettes. 362 00:21:50,436 --> 00:21:53,436 Speaker 1: The story of the Obscure Virus Club could end here, 363 00:21:54,036 --> 00:21:57,476 Speaker 1: Baltimore and Temen getting their medals from the King of Sweden, 364 00:21:57,876 --> 00:22:00,916 Speaker 1: then Temen calling out the whole crew for their hypocrisy. 365 00:22:01,836 --> 00:22:06,076 Speaker 1: Happy ending, But there's a whole other chapter to come. 366 00:22:20,356 --> 00:22:24,476 Speaker 1: When David Baltimore and Howard Tenman discovered reverse transcript tastes 367 00:22:24,876 --> 00:22:29,316 Speaker 1: and shattered the central dogma, Bob Gallo, the third charter 368 00:22:29,396 --> 00:22:32,236 Speaker 1: member of the Obscure Virus Club, was still in his 369 00:22:32,356 --> 00:22:38,276 Speaker 1: early thirties, the son of Italian working class immigrants, Lean, ambitious, 370 00:22:38,596 --> 00:22:42,996 Speaker 1: raw a rising star at the National Cancer Institute. He 371 00:22:43,076 --> 00:22:46,356 Speaker 1: went to a scientific conference in Paris, was stuck in 372 00:22:46,396 --> 00:22:49,156 Speaker 1: a cab when he looked out the window and saw 373 00:22:49,196 --> 00:22:49,836 Speaker 1: Howard Tamman. 374 00:22:51,236 --> 00:22:53,556 Speaker 2: He's looking on the streets in Paris like a law soul. 375 00:22:53,916 --> 00:22:55,676 Speaker 3: November of nineteen seventies. 376 00:22:55,716 --> 00:22:57,556 Speaker 2: Now a hero, Howard the hero. 377 00:22:58,036 --> 00:23:01,356 Speaker 1: Howard Tamman, the hero walking down of Paris street. 378 00:23:01,356 --> 00:23:08,476 Speaker 3: Had window shopping or something by himself excus different, Yeah. 379 00:23:07,596 --> 00:23:08,756 Speaker 4: How wre you are? 380 00:23:09,516 --> 00:23:10,756 Speaker 2: I said, yes, there you are. 381 00:23:12,196 --> 00:23:16,716 Speaker 1: I think sometimes we overestimate the importance of ideas and science. Yes, 382 00:23:17,036 --> 00:23:19,396 Speaker 1: you read a paper in Nature and it changes the 383 00:23:19,396 --> 00:23:22,316 Speaker 1: way you think about the central dogma. But what is 384 00:23:22,356 --> 00:23:24,476 Speaker 1: it that really changes the way you think about the 385 00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:27,716 Speaker 1: central dogma when you meet the person who challenged the 386 00:23:27,756 --> 00:23:32,436 Speaker 1: central dogma, and because that person is so remarkable, you realize, oh, 387 00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:37,076 Speaker 1: I want to be like that. Bob Gallo met Howard 388 00:23:37,076 --> 00:23:40,596 Speaker 1: Teman and decided then and there to join the Obscure 389 00:23:40,676 --> 00:23:41,316 Speaker 1: Virus Club. 390 00:23:41,676 --> 00:23:43,796 Speaker 3: He was a hero to me. You know, when I 391 00:23:43,836 --> 00:23:47,156 Speaker 3: was a child, it was Jodamajo. Okay, how adults hard 392 00:23:47,236 --> 00:23:50,916 Speaker 3: of it, so, you know, even not that much older 393 00:23:50,916 --> 00:23:53,036 Speaker 3: than me, it's a bit decade or so. But no, 394 00:23:53,316 --> 00:23:56,876 Speaker 3: I couldn't identify with him like that. I just appreciated 395 00:23:56,956 --> 00:23:59,636 Speaker 3: him a lot. I was just fascinated by him. I 396 00:23:59,676 --> 00:24:01,596 Speaker 3: was just taken in by it. And I just said, 397 00:24:01,676 --> 00:24:03,996 Speaker 3: you know, you know, listen to theiry goddamn thing this 398 00:24:04,036 --> 00:24:04,556 Speaker 3: guy says. 399 00:24:04,596 --> 00:24:04,836 Speaker 6: You know. 400 00:24:08,276 --> 00:24:12,396 Speaker 1: Gallow's special was leukemia, cancer of the blood cells, and 401 00:24:12,436 --> 00:24:15,356 Speaker 1: what drew him to retroviruses was the fact that so 402 00:24:15,476 --> 00:24:19,716 Speaker 1: many of them were leukemia's, Ludwig Gross's mouse leukemia being 403 00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:23,196 Speaker 1: the first and most famous, but soon people found others 404 00:24:23,676 --> 00:24:29,516 Speaker 1: bovine leukemia, feline leukemia, gibbon ape leukemia, plus chicken and mouse, 405 00:24:29,916 --> 00:24:35,236 Speaker 1: so five different animal systems, all infectious viruses. What no 406 00:24:35,276 --> 00:24:38,756 Speaker 1: one could find was a human retrovirus. There was a 407 00:24:38,796 --> 00:24:42,276 Speaker 1: growing feeling that they simply didn't exist, that maybe humans 408 00:24:42,276 --> 00:24:45,796 Speaker 1: were somehow protected against this kind of infection, but Gallo 409 00:24:45,836 --> 00:24:50,516 Speaker 1: didn't buy it. There had to be one. He decided 410 00:24:50,516 --> 00:24:54,556 Speaker 1: to focus on a specific subset of leukemia leukemia that 411 00:24:54,676 --> 00:24:58,516 Speaker 1: affected the blood cells known as tea cells. At the time, 412 00:24:58,876 --> 00:25:01,276 Speaker 1: no one knew how to grow tea cells in the laboratory, 413 00:25:01,516 --> 00:25:04,436 Speaker 1: and if you couldn't grow tea cells, you couldn't find 414 00:25:04,516 --> 00:25:08,316 Speaker 1: or study anything that infected them. Gallo's lab figured out 415 00:25:08,356 --> 00:25:11,876 Speaker 1: how to grow tea cell. Then he began searching, and 416 00:25:11,956 --> 00:25:14,916 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy nine he found it in the blood 417 00:25:14,996 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 1: of a twenty eight year old African American from Mobile, Alabama. 418 00:25:19,716 --> 00:25:24,476 Speaker 1: Gallo called what he found human t lymphotropic virus ie 419 00:25:25,316 --> 00:25:29,436 Speaker 1: HTLV one. It turned out the man's whole family had 420 00:25:29,516 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 1: leukemia two. Gallo then found a man in the Merchant 421 00:25:34,596 --> 00:25:38,396 Speaker 1: Marines with a history of sexual contacts in Japan and 422 00:25:38,436 --> 00:25:43,236 Speaker 1: the Caribbean. Same thing, leukemia and a weakened immune system. 423 00:25:43,916 --> 00:25:46,876 Speaker 1: In his blood, Gallo could see traces of a virus 424 00:25:46,916 --> 00:25:51,156 Speaker 1: with that tell tale bit of reverse transcriptase, A human 425 00:25:51,156 --> 00:25:56,196 Speaker 1: retrovirus spread by mother to child sexual contact and blood 426 00:25:56,196 --> 00:26:04,356 Speaker 1: to blood transmission, previously unknown, most definitely obscure. Gallo submitted 427 00:26:04,356 --> 00:26:07,956 Speaker 1: his findings to the Journal of Virology, the leading scientific 428 00:26:08,036 --> 00:26:11,796 Speaker 1: journal in the field, and what happened the same thing 429 00:26:11,876 --> 00:26:15,796 Speaker 1: that happened to Howard Temmen and Ludwig Gross. The world 430 00:26:15,876 --> 00:26:19,236 Speaker 1: wasn't ready to accept the idea of a human retrovirus. 431 00:26:19,636 --> 00:26:23,876 Speaker 1: The paper was rejected Gallo keeps that letter on his wall. 432 00:26:24,516 --> 00:26:27,956 Speaker 3: Dear Bob, I regret that your paper on the T 433 00:26:28,156 --> 00:26:32,316 Speaker 3: cell retrovirus is not acceptable for publication in the Journal 434 00:26:32,356 --> 00:26:36,876 Speaker 3: of Virology. There's little point in perpetuating this controversy about 435 00:26:36,876 --> 00:26:39,596 Speaker 3: the presumed viral nature of this material. 436 00:26:40,036 --> 00:26:42,516 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness atit. Wait it, give me the date. 437 00:26:42,636 --> 00:26:44,156 Speaker 3: September fifteen, nineteen eighty. 438 00:26:45,156 --> 00:26:49,916 Speaker 1: September fifteenth, nineteen eighty. That's the key fact, because what's 439 00:26:49,996 --> 00:26:52,116 Speaker 1: happening in the fall of nineteen eighty. 440 00:26:52,236 --> 00:26:54,956 Speaker 3: It's no It kills and it's spreading. 441 00:26:55,276 --> 00:26:58,516 Speaker 1: Young previously healthy men were starting to die of a 442 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:00,036 Speaker 1: mysterious disease. 443 00:27:00,076 --> 00:27:02,916 Speaker 5: As a disease that has medical science baffle. 444 00:27:06,116 --> 00:27:08,356 Speaker 1: If you did not live through the early days of 445 00:27:08,356 --> 00:27:11,196 Speaker 1: the AIDS epidemic, you have no idea what it was like. 446 00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:14,676 Speaker 1: It leveled the gay communities of major cities around the world. 447 00:27:15,116 --> 00:27:19,316 Speaker 1: People were wasting away, their skin, disfigured by strange lesions. 448 00:27:19,836 --> 00:27:24,116 Speaker 1: Preachers stood up and denounced homosexuality from their pulpits. Doctors 449 00:27:24,156 --> 00:27:28,316 Speaker 1: refused to treat gay patients. Public health officials started talking 450 00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:31,996 Speaker 1: about quarantines in those early years. I once heard a 451 00:27:31,996 --> 00:27:36,156 Speaker 1: presentation at a scientific conference from a demographer trying to 452 00:27:36,196 --> 00:27:39,356 Speaker 1: figure out if AIDS could cause the population explosion in 453 00:27:39,476 --> 00:27:43,156 Speaker 1: Africa to go into reverse. No one knew what it 454 00:27:43,356 --> 00:27:47,196 Speaker 1: was or how it spread. It was a mystery except 455 00:27:47,236 --> 00:27:50,356 Speaker 1: to the Obscure Virus Club, who thought it looked a 456 00:27:50,356 --> 00:27:53,556 Speaker 1: lot like the leukemia viruses they had been studying for years. 457 00:27:54,196 --> 00:27:56,916 Speaker 1: At what point in this process did you say, I 458 00:27:56,956 --> 00:27:58,716 Speaker 1: think it's a retrovirus. 459 00:27:59,516 --> 00:28:02,276 Speaker 3: Wouldn't have gone involved in it involved or didn't think 460 00:28:02,276 --> 00:28:06,436 Speaker 3: it was a retrovirus. So by definition, the day I 461 00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:08,556 Speaker 3: got in it, I'm thinking it's a retrovirus. 462 00:28:09,116 --> 00:28:12,356 Speaker 1: Paper by Bob Gallo, rejected by the Journal of Virology 463 00:28:12,396 --> 00:28:16,316 Speaker 1: in September of nineteen eighty was about human t lymphotropic 464 00:28:16,396 --> 00:28:21,516 Speaker 1: virus IE htlv one and the possibility that this strange 465 00:28:21,556 --> 00:28:25,996 Speaker 1: new retrovirus had found its way into humans. Now a 466 00:28:26,076 --> 00:28:29,356 Speaker 1: year later, Bob Gallo looked at AIDS and thought it 467 00:28:29,476 --> 00:28:32,756 Speaker 1: was behaving a lot like a cousin of htlv one. 468 00:28:33,196 --> 00:28:35,796 Speaker 2: But while what led you to suspect it was a retrovirus? 469 00:28:36,196 --> 00:28:40,756 Speaker 3: Our experience with htlv one and filelogumnia virus. What is 470 00:28:40,796 --> 00:28:43,956 Speaker 3: that experience? Blood sex more than the child. 471 00:28:45,036 --> 00:28:50,156 Speaker 1: It infected T cells? Check it caused immune dysfunction. Check 472 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:53,956 Speaker 1: it spread from mother to child, Check it spread through 473 00:28:54,036 --> 00:28:58,956 Speaker 1: blood to blood contact or sexual transmission. Check. By nineteen 474 00:28:58,996 --> 00:29:02,676 Speaker 1: eighty three, Gallow's lab had isolated and described the AIDS 475 00:29:02,756 --> 00:29:05,596 Speaker 1: virus and figured out how to grow it in the laboratory. 476 00:29:06,196 --> 00:29:09,236 Speaker 1: By nineteen eighty five, they had developed a test for it. 477 00:29:09,836 --> 00:29:12,516 Speaker 1: By nineteen ninety five, there was a class of drugs 478 00:29:12,516 --> 00:29:15,716 Speaker 1: available to treat HIV. That meant the virus was no 479 00:29:15,796 --> 00:29:19,876 Speaker 1: longer a death sentence. That is an astonishingly short amount 480 00:29:19,916 --> 00:29:23,676 Speaker 1: of time to detect, understand, and treat a new disease. 481 00:29:24,476 --> 00:29:28,676 Speaker 1: And why was the progress so fast? Because we had 482 00:29:28,716 --> 00:29:35,356 Speaker 1: a head start In the mountains that have been said 483 00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:38,556 Speaker 1: and written about AIDS, The usual tone is one of 484 00:29:38,636 --> 00:29:42,916 Speaker 1: horror at the indifference and incompetence and resistance that greeted 485 00:29:42,916 --> 00:29:46,636 Speaker 1: the epidemic. All of that is true. But you can 486 00:29:46,676 --> 00:29:50,116 Speaker 1: also make the case that we got lucky, not lucky 487 00:29:50,316 --> 00:29:56,156 Speaker 1: in some ephemeral way, but massively, unequivocally, epically lucky. Lucky 488 00:29:56,156 --> 00:30:00,516 Speaker 1: because Ludwig Gross insisted, doggedly, year after year that a 489 00:30:00,596 --> 00:30:04,996 Speaker 1: virus could cause cancer. Because Howard Temen insisted that the 490 00:30:05,036 --> 00:30:08,916 Speaker 1: central dogma was wrong, because Temin and Baltimore found a 491 00:30:09,116 --> 00:30:14,036 Speaker 1: crucial little enzyme called reverse transcriptase, because Bob Gallo got 492 00:30:14,036 --> 00:30:17,156 Speaker 1: it into his head that if there were mice retroviruses 493 00:30:17,196 --> 00:30:21,836 Speaker 1: and chicken retroviruses and cat retroviruses, there had to be 494 00:30:21,956 --> 00:30:26,796 Speaker 1: human retroviruses. And then he found a human retrovirus and 495 00:30:26,876 --> 00:30:29,876 Speaker 1: learned how it worked, and learned to isolate it and 496 00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:32,876 Speaker 1: grow it in the laboratory, and every one of those 497 00:30:32,996 --> 00:30:36,636 Speaker 1: lessons turned out to be perfect preparation for the most 498 00:30:36,756 --> 00:30:42,156 Speaker 1: terrifying retrovirus ever known. If HIV arrives as a force 499 00:30:42,516 --> 00:30:49,436 Speaker 1: ten years earlier, what happens scientifically, medically disaster. This is 500 00:30:49,516 --> 00:30:50,636 Speaker 1: David Baltimore again. 501 00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:55,436 Speaker 5: The worst thing that can happen, and it was proved 502 00:30:55,516 --> 00:31:01,516 Speaker 5: in the HIV epidemic, is not to know what's causing 503 00:31:01,556 --> 00:31:07,476 Speaker 5: a disease, because that gives liberty to fantasy. 504 00:31:08,196 --> 00:31:10,036 Speaker 1: We could know it was in infections and note was 505 00:31:10,076 --> 00:31:11,836 Speaker 1: a virus, but not be able to. 506 00:31:11,956 --> 00:31:13,636 Speaker 5: We couldn't find it, couldn't find it. 507 00:31:15,236 --> 00:31:18,436 Speaker 1: Remember what David Baltimore said of the experiment in nineteen 508 00:31:18,476 --> 00:31:22,876 Speaker 1: seventy that led him to reverse transcriptase. It took two days. 509 00:31:23,316 --> 00:31:26,356 Speaker 1: It was a trivial thing, but only because he knew 510 00:31:26,356 --> 00:31:29,356 Speaker 1: what he was looking for. If you're faced with a 511 00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:33,636 Speaker 1: retrovirus and you don't know what you're looking for, you're lost. 512 00:31:34,636 --> 00:31:37,236 Speaker 1: You can't find it unless you know it's this particular 513 00:31:37,276 --> 00:31:38,556 Speaker 1: class of right. 514 00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:43,596 Speaker 5: It was the search for reverse transcriptase in the virus 515 00:31:43,636 --> 00:31:47,556 Speaker 5: particles that opened up the knowledge that it was a 516 00:31:47,596 --> 00:31:49,556 Speaker 5: virus that was causing the disease. 517 00:31:51,396 --> 00:31:54,236 Speaker 1: The world may not have been ready for HIV, but 518 00:31:54,356 --> 00:32:03,076 Speaker 1: the obscure virus club was. Ludwig Gross died in nineteen 519 00:32:03,156 --> 00:32:06,076 Speaker 1: ninety nine at the age of ninety five of stomach 520 00:32:06,156 --> 00:32:10,356 Speaker 1: cancer caused by infection with the bacterium go back to Pylori, 521 00:32:10,676 --> 00:32:15,236 Speaker 1: which he himself had researched. Howard Temmen died five years earlier, 522 00:32:15,356 --> 00:32:17,996 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four, at the age of fifty nine, 523 00:32:18,196 --> 00:32:21,516 Speaker 1: of lung cancer, the obscure kind you can get even 524 00:32:21,556 --> 00:32:25,676 Speaker 1: if you've never smoked. Bob Gallo is still very much alive, 525 00:32:26,236 --> 00:32:28,476 Speaker 1: with pictures of his old friends on the walls of 526 00:32:28,516 --> 00:32:29,276 Speaker 1: his office. 527 00:32:29,636 --> 00:32:31,876 Speaker 3: Oh there he is wife, Yeah, oh yeah, this is 528 00:32:31,956 --> 00:32:34,196 Speaker 3: just this is not long before he died. 529 00:32:34,836 --> 00:32:36,436 Speaker 1: Oh he's so young. It was so sad. 530 00:32:36,796 --> 00:32:37,316 Speaker 3: It's awful. 531 00:32:38,196 --> 00:32:41,796 Speaker 1: At Temmen's memorial service, Gallo told the story of his 532 00:32:41,876 --> 00:32:45,996 Speaker 1: first encounter with his friend years before. In Paris. I 533 00:32:46,116 --> 00:32:49,116 Speaker 1: found a copy of his eulogy. It's like the beginning 534 00:32:49,196 --> 00:32:52,956 Speaker 1: of a love story. I was in a traffic stall 535 00:32:53,116 --> 00:32:57,276 Speaker 1: taxi with a few others and we saw Howard walking alone, 536 00:32:57,356 --> 00:32:59,516 Speaker 1: and he was poking his nose in and out of 537 00:32:59,516 --> 00:33:03,756 Speaker 1: the store windows. He was smiling, he was looking quizzical. 538 00:33:04,636 --> 00:33:09,316 Speaker 1: He was the picture of happy boyhood. Curiosity retained in 539 00:33:09,356 --> 00:33:14,356 Speaker 1: a man. I think maybe you've been inside of it 540 00:33:14,436 --> 00:33:17,956 Speaker 1: so long, maybe you miss how astonishing it is. 541 00:33:20,756 --> 00:33:24,196 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true, that's true. My wife would put it 542 00:33:24,236 --> 00:33:26,996 Speaker 3: in the mystery, so, you know, into something more powerful 543 00:33:27,036 --> 00:33:29,836 Speaker 3: than you would be, or anything else or luck. What 544 00:33:29,956 --> 00:33:32,436 Speaker 3: if Temen and Baltimore didn't discover reverse transcript takes, there 545 00:33:32,476 --> 00:33:34,956 Speaker 3: is no field. I start with that too. 546 00:33:39,196 --> 00:33:42,556 Speaker 1: I would start here. What if any of these people, 547 00:33:42,876 --> 00:33:46,916 Speaker 1: Peyton Rouse, Ludwig Gross, Howard, tim and Robert Gallo, in 548 00:33:47,036 --> 00:33:51,156 Speaker 1: their pursuit of truth, had been motivated by the expectation 549 00:33:51,476 --> 00:33:55,796 Speaker 1: of reward, where would we be or if they listened 550 00:33:55,836 --> 00:33:58,676 Speaker 1: to what others said as opposed to trusting in what 551 00:33:58,796 --> 00:34:02,396 Speaker 1: their own experiments revealed, or if they had only been 552 00:34:02,436 --> 00:34:06,676 Speaker 1: willing to wander five years in the wilderness instead of ten. 553 00:34:10,956 --> 00:34:13,996 Speaker 1: Many of the stories in this season of Revisionist History 554 00:34:14,196 --> 00:34:17,316 Speaker 1: have come down to the same issue. How we should 555 00:34:17,316 --> 00:34:21,596 Speaker 1: act in the world in novel and difficult circumstances. How 556 00:34:21,636 --> 00:34:24,796 Speaker 1: we should think about what matters for a profession, or 557 00:34:24,876 --> 00:34:28,156 Speaker 1: think about those who choose a crooked path, or dissent 558 00:34:28,276 --> 00:34:32,396 Speaker 1: from orthodoxy, or borrow the traditions of others, or engage 559 00:34:32,436 --> 00:34:36,316 Speaker 1: with someone loathsome I could go on, but if you 560 00:34:36,356 --> 00:34:40,236 Speaker 1: are looking for one example to be your guide, start 561 00:34:40,276 --> 00:34:45,356 Speaker 1: with this one. The grace and persistence of Howard Temmen 562 00:34:45,876 --> 00:34:58,596 Speaker 1: and the Obscure Virus Club. Thank you for listening to 563 00:34:58,796 --> 00:35:03,316 Speaker 1: Season four of Revisionist History. Every week on Revisionist History, 564 00:35:03,756 --> 00:35:06,236 Speaker 1: I say the names of the people behind the Revisionist 565 00:35:06,276 --> 00:35:09,676 Speaker 1: History podcast, and for this episode, I I wanted to 566 00:35:09,796 --> 00:35:13,156 Speaker 1: let you hear them say their names for themselves. This 567 00:35:13,316 --> 00:35:17,836 Speaker 1: is my team. Nothing would happen without them. Mia Lobel, 568 00:35:18,716 --> 00:35:19,756 Speaker 1: Jacob Smith. 569 00:35:20,116 --> 00:35:26,076 Speaker 6: Julia Barton, Flonon Williams, Camille Baptista, Luis Guerra. 570 00:35:27,756 --> 00:35:31,956 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Carl Megliori, Heather Fain, Maggie Taylor, Beth Johnson, 571 00:35:32,116 --> 00:35:38,276 Speaker 1: Maya Knigg, and Jacob Weisberg l hefe By the way, 572 00:35:38,556 --> 00:35:40,956 Speaker 1: you can hear a longer version of my interview with 573 00:35:41,036 --> 00:35:45,956 Speaker 1: David Baltimore on the Solvable podcast, which Pushkin produces with 574 00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:51,036 Speaker 1: the Rockefeller Foundation. Revisionist History is brought to you by 575 00:35:51,156 --> 00:35:54,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Gladwell. 576 00:36:09,156 --> 00:36:11,396 Speaker 5: Three