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Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: And welcome to my new time slot. The Carol Markowitz

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Speaker 1: Show now airs Wednesdays and Fridays, so you can get

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Speaker 1: my non political podcast this show, The Carol Markowitz Show

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Speaker 1: on Wednesday and Fridays, and then normally my political podcast

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Speaker 1: that I co host with Mary Katherine Ham every Tuesday

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Speaker 1: and Thursday. The only day you don't get me is Monday,

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Speaker 1: Tomorrow's Thanksgiving, and I've heard from so many people who

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Speaker 1: are dreading it because of political disagreements with their family members. Look,

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Speaker 1: I care about politics a lot. I think ideas shape

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Speaker 1: how well our world functions. And if the last few

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Speaker 1: years have taught me anything it's that bad political ideas

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Speaker 1: and actors can really affect my family, my children, and

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Speaker 1: I will fight for them with all I have. But

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Speaker 1: when I disagree with someone I love, I give them

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Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt that they also want a

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Speaker 1: better world and just have different ideas on how to

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Speaker 1: get there. The real thing is that falling out with

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Speaker 1: your family or friends over politics is childish. It reduces

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Speaker 1: your relationships to vague concepts. People will say, oh, but

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Speaker 1: it shows values. Maybe maybe a little bit, but the

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Speaker 1: idea that you can't share values with someone who doesn't

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Speaker 1: vote like you, that just isn't true. Beyond all this,

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Speaker 1: we have a finite time on this earth, and if

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Speaker 1: you're discarding people who care about you over political ideals,

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Speaker 1: you're wasting your time here. The thing is that I

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Speaker 1: know I'm mostly preaching to the choir here. My audience

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Speaker 1: is largely right leaning, as I am, and it's usually

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Speaker 1: not right leaning people tossing family or friends away. MSNBC

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Speaker 1: has had several segments now since the election on how

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Speaker 1: to cut off family members who voted differently. They want

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Speaker 1: the stress and if you have a leftist family member,

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Speaker 1: come at you tomorrow. Deflect, talk about what you have

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Speaker 1: in common, Discuss the food show you watched on TV, music,

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Speaker 1: you're listening to your kooki, cousin, whatever. Don't get into

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Speaker 1: the arguments that the crazy people on TV want us

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Speaker 1: to have. I'll add one other thing, and I don't

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Speaker 1: mean to be a bummer, but someone close to our

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Speaker 1: family was in a terrible car accident recently. It's just

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Speaker 1: too awful for words. I can't even say the details

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Speaker 1: out loud. But we're praying so hard for him. One

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Speaker 1: of the first things I thought when I heard the

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Speaker 1: news was I need to stop wasting my time. I'm

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Speaker 1: not even sure exactly what I meant by it, but

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Speaker 1: I guess I was thinking of the scrolling and the

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Speaker 1: nonsense and the arguments and all of that. Understand that

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Speaker 1: arguing about politics with your family is a waste of time,

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Speaker 1: and we only get so much of it. I'm wishing

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Speaker 1: you and your family a peaceful, happy, and delicious Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 1: We all have so much to be thankful for. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening. Coming up an interview with Kristin Wagener. But first,

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Speaker 1: four four eight two four Safe Today Offerends, December twod

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is Kristin Wagner, President, CEO and General counsel

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Speaker 1: of Alliance Defending Freedom, the leading legal force working to

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Speaker 1: protect parental rights, fairness and safety in women's sports, and

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Speaker 1: so much more. Thanks so much for coming on, Kristin,

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Speaker 1: How are you good?

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: I love your organization. I wanted to find out more

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Speaker 1: about you as a person, and so start at the beginning.

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Speaker 2: How did you get into this. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: That's a pretty long story. At fifty two years old,

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Speaker 3: it's taken a while, But I think what I would

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Speaker 3: say is I began just having conversations with my dad

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Speaker 3: many many years ago as a kid, who encouraged me

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Speaker 3: to find out what that purposes in my life. So

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Speaker 3: from about the time I was twelve on, I knew

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Speaker 3: I wanted to be a lawyer working in these areas.

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Speaker 3: But I travel a lot of different paths over the years,

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Speaker 3: including spending most of my career in private practice at

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Speaker 3: a law firm in Seattle, Washington, and then joined eighty

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Speaker 3: Half about eleven years ago. But I had the privilege

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Speaker 3: of working with eightyf as well as a number of

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Speaker 3: other public interestscripts when I was in private practice too.

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Speaker 3: Because I was in Seattle, it meant that we had

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Speaker 3: a number of cases against the government that had to

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Speaker 3: be litigated. So that's a little bit how I got

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Speaker 3: into it, and I think in hindsight, I know that

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Speaker 3: the Lord was guiding that path and giving me the

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Speaker 3: experience in private practice to be ready to lead the

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Speaker 3: US legal team, which I did for about ten years

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Speaker 3: and now in my current role, to be able to

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Speaker 3: head up a global ministry, both sides, the US and

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Speaker 3: the international.

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Speaker 1: Was ADF working on similar topics ten years ago as

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Speaker 1: right now, because it just seems like, for example, you know,

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Speaker 1: boys playing in girls' sports, I feel like wasn't quite

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Speaker 1: the issue it was ten years ago.

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Speaker 2: That's very true.

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Speaker 3: I would say, you know, had I known in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and thirteen when I was making the move where

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Speaker 3: we would be now, it probably would have been a

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Speaker 3: whole lot more hesitant to jump in. That's probably a

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Speaker 3: statement of bad statement about my character. But man, it's

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Speaker 3: been a wild ride, and I'm so grateful to be

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Speaker 3: able to do this work because there is so much

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Speaker 3: at stake. But I would say we started working on

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Speaker 3: the gender identity issue about twenty fifteen, and by twenty

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Speaker 3: sixteen we had the first case that involved bathrooms, and

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Speaker 3: then by two seventeen we were litigating the first sorts case.

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Speaker 2: So it's been a long time coming that we've been

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Speaker 2: working on the issue.

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Speaker 1: What was the kickoff to this, because I admit I lived,

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Speaker 1: I was living in Brooklyn. I just thought like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this will come to the areas that don't care, like

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Speaker 1: deep Blue Brooklyn will have boys playing in girls' sports.

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Speaker 1: But I just thought it would be an automatic. This

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Speaker 1: is not happening in our town, in the red areas.

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Speaker 1: So what was kind of the kickoff to where you

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Speaker 1: saw that this wasn't going to be contained and it

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Speaker 1: was going to spread and you had to fight it.

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Speaker 3: From the moment North Carolina started considering an issue related

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Speaker 3: to bathrooms and locker rooms, immediately the left was saying,

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Speaker 3: you're crying. Well, if this isn't a big deal, this

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Speaker 3: isn't going to happen. We knew then that this was

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Speaker 3: a part of the progressive left agenda and that it

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Speaker 3: was going to hurt women and girls the most. It

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Speaker 3: hurts all families, but particularly women and girls. And by

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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, that's when we had the three track athletes

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Speaker 3: in Connecticut who were high school students. Two year period,

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Speaker 3: they had fifteen state state track championships that were lost

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Speaker 3: to boys who three weeks earlier had competed as girls,

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Speaker 3: or I mean they competed as boys and three weeks

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Speaker 3: later they switched over to girls. We've known since twenty

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Speaker 3: seventeen that it was moving forward, and I have to

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Speaker 3: say that I think our experience in the Masterpiece Cake

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Speaker 3: Shop litigation which involved the Colorado Baker people were saying, well,

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Speaker 3: that's an isolated incident too, where the state's trying to

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Speaker 3: compel speech on gender identity or on marriage. That's always

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Speaker 3: what they start say at the beginning is don't worry,

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Speaker 3: it's only these isolated instances, and it never works out

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Speaker 3: that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, the only reason I believe that I

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Speaker 1: was a lifelong conservative. I knew how they spread their message.

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Speaker 1: But the reason I thought that the girls sports thing

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Speaker 1: would stay contained is because it's such an obvious one.

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Speaker 1: It's not a fifty to fifty issue. It's like, what

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Speaker 1: is it eighty five, fifteen or eighty twenty right now,

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Speaker 1: it's so overwhelming that people understand the stakes. That's why

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Speaker 1: we have girls' sports in the first place, because girls

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Speaker 1: and boys are not supposed to play against each other.

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Speaker 1: That I thought that That's why I was naive about it.

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Speaker 1: I think that I thought it just couldn't possibly spread.

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Speaker 3: I think it was an entirely correct assumption at the

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Speaker 3: time that common sense would prevail. You know, of course

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Speaker 3: we would think that that biological reality true is truth.

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Speaker 3: But we're in a battle about truth right now, and

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Speaker 3: one of the things Carol, I don't think I'll ever forget.

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Speaker 3: Is sitting across my desk from an attorney, and I

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Speaker 3: was about twenty sixteen or so, and he said, you

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Speaker 3: don't understand how dark this is. I am going into

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Speaker 3: court arguing about body parts to judges, and it's mind

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Speaker 3: blowing to me that this is what I'm spending my

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Speaker 3: career doing, having to talk about these things in when

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Speaker 3: we just know what's truth, and yet these judges don't

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Speaker 3: seem to be even honoring it, let alone taking it

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Speaker 3: seriously about how it's going to hurt women and girls,

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Speaker 3: not just in sports, but in privacy and their right

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Speaker 3: to safety.

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Speaker 2: And just know, now we're being called birthing women, as.

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Speaker 3: You know, so it dehumanizes women obviously not birthing women.

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Speaker 1: We don't get to be readmit at all for.

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Speaker 2: The correct person.

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Speaker 1: Right, you're spot on. So I co authored a book

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Speaker 1: with Bethany Mendel about woken doctrination of kids, and our

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Speaker 1: transgender chapter was the one that kept our book from

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Speaker 1: going to certain publishers. They openly told us this transgender

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Speaker 1: chapter makes us very uncomfortable. It was more than two

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Speaker 1: years ago now, so it came out like a year

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Speaker 1: and a half ago, but it we pitched it like

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Speaker 1: three years ago, completely changed topics since then. But one

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Speaker 1: thing I wanted to say was, when we were touring

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Speaker 1: for the book, it really was women who cared about

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Speaker 1: this issue. It was tougher to get even moms of

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Speaker 1: boys to care about it, because if a girl's playing

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Speaker 1: in boys' sports, it's like, Okay, go ahead and do that.

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Speaker 2: Try it.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like men have really woken up in

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Speaker 1: the last year or so. Are you seeing that on

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Speaker 1: your end or it just feels that way they lecture.

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Speaker 1: It seems like the men are like, we're going to

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Speaker 1: protect the girls now.

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Speaker 2: I believe that's true.

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Speaker 3: I remember early on sitting on a plane and sitting

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Speaker 3: next to a guy who was from North Carolina actually,

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Speaker 3: and we started talking about this is the very beginning,

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Speaker 3: and he had three daughters and he's like, it wouldn't

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Speaker 3: bother me, It wouldn't bother me if some guy showed

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Speaker 3: up in their locker room.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, seriously, yes it would.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I have a daughter myself, and I'm thinking,

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Speaker 3: there's no way I would let that happen to my

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Speaker 3: middle school girl, right, And that's what is happening.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's not.

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Speaker 3: Just at the college level, it's at all levels. And

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Speaker 3: so I do think that dads in particular are waking

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Speaker 3: up that this is a real threat. And I think

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Speaker 3: I would also hope that they're waking up to the

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Speaker 3: story of the d transitioners as well, because when you

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Speaker 3: hear their stories, you realize the harm that's being caused is. Yes,

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Speaker 3: it's trophies, it's scholarships, it's economic opportunities, academic opportunities, but

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Speaker 3: it is so much more than that, in terms of

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Speaker 3: how we are diminishing women, dehumanizing them, and how we're

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Speaker 3: harming these kids physically by imposing this transgender ideology on them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do you have an ADF issue that you particularly

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Speaker 1: like a lane that you kind of care about more

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Speaker 1: than the others all your babies.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I should.

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Speaker 3: I can't pick one and say I care more about it,

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Speaker 3: but I will say I think what I find myself

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Speaker 3: as a mom in this moment, getting the most passionate

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Speaker 3: about our two things one well, three, I would say,

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Speaker 3: But they're all woven together. It's gender identity, it is

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Speaker 3: parental rights, and it's global censorship. And I think all

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Speaker 3: three of them are tied together, and we're seeing gender

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Speaker 3: identity used as a trojan horse to take away the

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Speaker 3: rights of moms and dads and to insert the state

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Speaker 3: is really the parent of the child. And we're also

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Speaker 3: seeing global censorship in terms of what it means to

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Speaker 3: be human and how that's playing out at a global

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Speaker 3: scale and also here in the United States. And I

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Speaker 3: think that's probably the issue that Americans need to wake

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Speaker 3: up to as well. I mean, I think we're starting

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Speaker 3: to catch on on the gender identity front, but I

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Speaker 3: don't know that this whole campaign about misinformation, malinformation and

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Speaker 3: disinformation if people are realizing that's just a code word

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Speaker 3: for censorship, which then leads to tyranny.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell my listeners a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: global censorship, like, how does that tie into your work?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 3: Well, it ties it in a number of ways. We have

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Speaker 3: the First Amendment that protects the right of Americans to

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Speaker 3: speak freely. In the American tradition, and I think in

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Speaker 3: the human tradition, those.

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Speaker 2: That represent the best of Western civilization.

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Speaker 3: We know that the way to pursue truth and social

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Speaker 3: progress is for ideas to debate ideas. It's for speech

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Speaker 3: to counter speech, not for speech to be countered by

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Speaker 3: government criminal penalties. We can go all the way back

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Speaker 3: to Frederick Douglas who would say that the first right

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Speaker 3: that tyrants take away is the right to be able

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Speaker 3: to express yourself, and that in order to formulate our thoughts,

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Speaker 3: we have to be able to speak out those thoughts,

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Speaker 3: because when you speak something that's not true and then

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Speaker 3: it's countered with other ideas, it brings light into darkness,

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Speaker 3: and that's critical for social progress and even for the

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Speaker 3: formation of our families and as we live out whatever

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Speaker 3: beliefs that we have, whether those are religiously based or not.

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Speaker 3: In terms of the censorship that we're seeing. We are

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Speaker 3: a global organization, so we are representing individuals across the world,

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Speaker 3: whether that be in Africa, who are experiencing. You know,

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Speaker 3: we have a client right now who's experiencing not only imprisonment,

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Speaker 3: but he's facing the death penalty for lyrics in his music.

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Speaker 3: We have a client in Mexico right now who was

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Speaker 3: in Congress and has been convicted of gender based political

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Speaker 3: violence because he tweeted out that the Mexican legislature is

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Speaker 3: divided between there are certain number of seats for women,

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Speaker 3: and of course men who identify as women are taking

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Speaker 3: those seats and he's this is wrong, and he's been

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Speaker 3: convicted of a crime there right now. In Inland, we

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Speaker 3: represent a Minister of Parliament who has been convicted of

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Speaker 3: three hate crimes because literally in the War Crimes Act

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Speaker 3: of Finland we're tweeting now a Bible verse in response

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Speaker 3: to her church sponsoring in LGBT Pride parade. That case

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Speaker 3: is before the Finnish Supreme Court right now. And of

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Speaker 3: course we have multiple cases in the UK the home

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Speaker 3: of the Magna Carta, where we're seeing those who are

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Speaker 3: silently participating in prayer outside of abortion clinics that they

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Speaker 3: have been arrested and prosecuted for crimes.

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Speaker 2: And then we have the US right.

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Speaker 3: So it starts with the Low Hanging Fruit, which initially

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Speaker 3: was Jack Phillips and the Masterpiece Cake Shop and the

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Speaker 3: creative professionals who they were trying to force to speak

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Speaker 3: a message that violated their convictions. To now our case

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Speaker 3: with the Babylon b as an example, where California is

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Speaker 3: passing laws left and right to censor what counselors are

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Speaker 3: able to say and what satire and parity can be expressed.

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Speaker 2: In an election season.

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Speaker 3: So I think those are some examples, but we see

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Speaker 3: see them consistently here in the United States as well,

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Speaker 3: attempts to censor speech.

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Speaker 1: More coming up with Kristen, but first, every twenty five seconds,

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Speaker 1: Do you see some countries just being worse on this

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Speaker 1: than others? Like I'm very concerned about the UK. I

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Speaker 1: think that what's happening over there seems terrifying and very

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Speaker 1: pressing to me, But I'm wondering if I'm missing other

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Speaker 1: countries that you might know about.

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Speaker 3: It's completely draconian and shocking that the UK is engaging

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Speaker 3: in this kind of censorship. Literally it's for silent prayer

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Speaker 3: that they're prosecuting people. So you can see videos where

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Speaker 3: one of our clients was arrested and he was convicted

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Speaker 3: actually two weeks ago at trial. We're appeeling it for

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Speaker 3: silent per outside of an abortion clinic, and multiple of

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Speaker 3: our clients have been asked what are you praying about?

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Speaker 3: Like literally, what's going on in your mind? So they're

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Speaker 3: prosecuting people for their thoughts if they dare to admit

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Speaker 3: those thoughts. Yeah, so I think probably the UK is

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Speaker 3: the most concerning, but not because it's the most egregious

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Speaker 3: in terms of penalties, but we would hope that the

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Speaker 3: UK would would protect the rights of its citizens as

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Speaker 3: a Western democracy and one that's committed to free speech.

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Speaker 3: I think that the case before the Finnish Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: is also extremely concerning. You know, you have basically a

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Speaker 3: minister of Parliament who even served as the head of

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Speaker 3: the Department of Interior, is a very prominent politician in Finland,

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Speaker 3: who was prosecuted for these crimes and convicted. Well she

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Speaker 3: wasn't initially convicted. We won at trial and then we've

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Speaker 3: won on appeal, but they keep pursuing it and charging

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Speaker 3: her with that and the fact that that continues to

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Speaker 3: be brought up by prosecutors is mind blowing and I

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Speaker 3: think it's important to realize this is a moment of

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Speaker 3: courage because they're trying to send a message by going

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Speaker 3: after these people. And that's again in the US side,

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Speaker 3: we've seen speech chilled and people say I don't want

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Speaker 3: any part of that, I don't want trouble, but really

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Speaker 3: what happens is then our rights are taken away.

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Speaker 1: That's right, That's exactly it. People who don't want trouble

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Speaker 1: end up having trouble. Is where this all ends up.

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Speaker 1: What do you worry about? And that's a question I

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Speaker 1: ask all of my guests, so it doesn't have to

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Speaker 1: be in your work, but in general, or what concerns.

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Speaker 3: You about the world that my kids are going to

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Speaker 3: grow up in or that their kids are going to

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Speaker 3: grow up in. You know, I've got a high school

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Speaker 3: or in a couple of kids, one finished college, one

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Speaker 3: that's in college right now, and I think about the

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Speaker 3: threats that are facing us, including this censorship issue as

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Speaker 3: an example, because I do think that it leads to

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Speaker 3: not only the loss of the right of free speech,

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Speaker 3: but the loss of all of our other rights, the

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Speaker 3: right to challenge government, the right to get the right

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Speaker 3: ideas out there, and what that looks like. I worry

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Speaker 3: about that not just with regard to how the government

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Speaker 3: treats us, but big tech and the corporate space. And

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Speaker 3: I think we have to fight back on those issues

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Speaker 3: now to speak truth, because we are in a debate

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Speaker 3: for truth. Os Guinness says right now that where this

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Speaker 3: is a battle between the French Revolution and the American Revolution,

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Speaker 3: and I don't mean that in any physical sense, but

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Speaker 3: I do mean it in the sense of ideas, and

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Speaker 3: so I think we have to have conversations at our

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Speaker 3: kitchen tables to teach our kids what's right.

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Speaker 1: So how do you do that? Where do you get

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Speaker 1: that information for the kids? This is a question I

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Speaker 1: get asked a lot from parents, like where do they

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Speaker 1: find the information? How do they start?

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Speaker 3: There are a number of websites that you can look

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Speaker 3: at that have messaging in them that helps you understand

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Speaker 3: what's going on in the world, understand what critical theory

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Speaker 3: is about, you know, how it plays out both in

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Speaker 3: terms of critical race theory, critical gender theory, the pressed

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Speaker 3: and the oppressor. What our kids are learning in school,

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Speaker 3: Books like yours are very helpful, books like Abigail Schreier's

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Speaker 3: in terms yeah yeah, especially like bad therapy. I mean

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Speaker 3: this model.

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Speaker 1: Lined yeah talks about that therapy so much on this

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Speaker 1: show because I just I thought it was groundbreaking.

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Speaker 3: I still agree with you, just even in my own

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Speaker 3: parenting of you know, there's about six to seven years

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Speaker 3: between my youngest and my oldest, and it's nine day

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Speaker 3: difference in terms of what my youngest needs in this

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Speaker 3: moment and what he's hearing at school and in his community.

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Speaker 3: And yet I think his parents we've been trained to

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Speaker 3: say we have to go.

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Speaker 2: To the experts, but we are the experts.

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Speaker 3: So I think finding the right books also finding the

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Speaker 3: right media outlets. We have so many opportunities to listen

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Speaker 3: to truth like your podcast, and then at ADF Legal

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Speaker 3: dot org, we also have resources that are there that

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Speaker 3: are designed to help people understand they can be equipped

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Speaker 3: common sense supplies here, but the science is also on

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Speaker 3: our side.

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Speaker 1: What advice would you give your sixteen year old self

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Speaker 1: if you had to do this, you know, all over again.

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Speaker 2: So I would say, break up with that boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: That is the best answer I've gotten yet that guy

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Speaker 1: is not good for you.

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Speaker 3: He's not going to take you anywhere that you ought

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Speaker 3: to be going. That honestly is the first thing that

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Speaker 3: came to mind. But I think the second thing is

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Speaker 3: more substantively. We are part of a bigger story. And

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Speaker 3: for me, I'm a person of faith and I believe

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Speaker 3: that I'm a part of a bigger story. I was

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Speaker 3: created for a purpose and having confidence in that and

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Speaker 3: to know that I don't need to feel anxiety about

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Speaker 3: what the future holds it's one step at a time

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Speaker 3: and walking through the open doors that God provides and

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Speaker 3: just showing up to be faithful and asking him to

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Speaker 3: cover the gaps.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I also love the dump that boyfriend. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's actually the best advice. So I've loved this conversation

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Speaker 1: and getting to know you. I've known your organization for

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Speaker 1: a while, but this has been really great. End here

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Speaker 1: with your best tip for my listeners on how they

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Speaker 1: can improve their.

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Speaker 3: Lives with The second answer to the sixteen year old

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Speaker 3: question is again just realizing that we are in a

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Speaker 3: civilization moment right now. I truly believe that we are

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Speaker 3: at a point where either Western civilization will be renewed

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Speaker 3: or it will be declined or replaced with something else.

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Speaker 3: And what a moment that is for us to live in.

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Speaker 3: So I want us to approach that moment with hope,

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Speaker 3: with optimism, to say, Hey, God had a plan and

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Speaker 3: he created me for this season, which means he must.

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Speaker 2: Trust me with it. And so then to really show.

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Speaker 3: Up in the ways that He's called us to. And

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Speaker 3: I think that that includes being willing to be a

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Speaker 3: truth teller and not succumbing to this cancel culture moment.

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Speaker 3: People crave truth and they know it when they hear it,

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Speaker 3: and I think you're seeing that in the change on

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Speaker 3: the gender identity discussions and probably even in.

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Speaker 2: This last election.

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Speaker 3: The results that we're seeing are our people want to

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Speaker 3: return to some common sense and reality, but they need

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Speaker 3: to not feel alone. So we've got to speak, speak clearly,

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Speaker 3: speak kindly. But again I want to say and speak

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Speaker 3: at our dinner tables for the next generation.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I absolutely agree she is. Kristin Wagner, President, CEO,

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Speaker 1: and General counsel of Alliance Defending Freedom. Check them out.

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Speaker 1: They are really fantastic organizations. They've been around so long,

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Speaker 1: doing so much good work. Thank you so much, Kristin,

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Carol, Thanks so much for joining us on

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Speaker 1: the Carol Marco which show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.