WEBVTT - Donald Trump Runs the Military & The Role of Militias 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.240 It's been two years since Donald Trump lost election, and 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.640 although a stubbornly high number of Republicans still don't believe 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:11.800 he lost, they are at least coming around to the 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:15.000 reality that he is no longer the president who is 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:19.239 running the government right now, President Trump, well most of 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.919 them are. For some the truth is just too much 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.400 to bear. I found this out firsthand when I was 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:27.720 told that amagare ally that Trump is still in charge 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.840 of the military. He's running the government and the military, 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:33.519 and he's running the military, so we should blame him 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:36.920 for what happened in Afghanistan. Thank you for talking to 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.919 George enjoycing President current President Trump. It makes me think 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:43.160 of that famous courtroom quote from a few good men, 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.360 you can't handle the truth. Although if you think about it, 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.479 that's a quote from Colonel Nathan or Jessup, who as 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.480 a member of the military of logic follows still reports 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:57.520 to Donald Trump. Damn it, checkmate it again. This Jordan 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.200 Clapper figures the conspiracy and today we're talking about out 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.720 the military. The Trump is still in charge of the military. 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:07.800 Conspiracy theory. It's just one of many military related conspiracy theories. 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:09.840 And we have two people here with us today who 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.560 know a lot about them and the people who believe them, 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:16.680 both outside and inside military ranks. They are Paul Zoldra, 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.479 a veteran who covers military issues and as the editor 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:22.000 of the weekly newsletter of The Rock that focuses on 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.479 national security and defense. We're also joined by Dr Amy 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.480 Cootter of Middlebury College, who has studied and spent time 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:31.560 with militia groups like the oath Keepers. Guys, Welcome aboard, 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:34.440 Nice to be here, Thank you for having me. Good 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:36.399 to have you guys. All right, Paul, I want to 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.240 start here, help us understand the logic behind the theory 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:44.080 that Donald Trump is still in charge of the military. 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.119 I mean, even with Ivanka bailing on the campaign, I'm 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.720 not even convinced he's in charge of his family anymore. 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:55.440 Walk us through this. How is he in charge of 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.800 the military? Well, Jordan, he's the commander in chief. Still, 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.000 he didn't lose the elect ship. I mean didn't you 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:05.440 didn't you read That's how if you believe it, you 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:07.800 can't achieve it and or convince a bunch of other 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.400 people you have achieved it. It seems wild. So why 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.919 do people actually think this? Um? It really boils down 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:19.000 to his A lot of his supporters believe that he 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.160 he did not lose the election. Um, and you know 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:28.280 that's kind of coming into uh an interesting, interesting part 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.799 where he's running for re election now, um, even though 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:37.440 he didn't lose the last election, but even still, um, Yeah, 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:39.520 he's the commander in chief and so if he's if 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:41.640 he's still the president of the United States, then he's 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.320 still the commander in chief and he's still has pole 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.240 in the military and um and and oh by the way, um, 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.880 a whole bunch of the military is is supportive Trump, 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.160 and we'll you know, go with every his every word. 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:57.640 I hope the sarcasm is coming through, by the way, 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.880 I under I can hear some of the sarcasm in there. 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:03.840 I guess what help me walk through a little bit 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.920 of this sounds it sounds ridiculous, but it's not the 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.080 only time I've heard this out and about. I know 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:13.120 people are denying the idea that Donald Trump lost the election, 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:16.160 but there are people who still believe, Okay, he lost 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:19.040 and Biden is in charge, but that there is something 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.320 going on that we cannot see where Donald Trump is 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:26.440 in charge of the military apparatus. Can you speak to 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.960 that mindset. I know it's it's not true, but but 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.400 speak to the mindset. Where does something like that come from? Why? 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.880 Why are there people who are grasping onto this? Is 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.840 there like a military idea that there is some sort 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:43.080 of shadow general, shadow leader? Like what? What? What? What 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.760 draws people to this other than the inability to let 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:50.520 go of the idea that Trump is still president? Well, 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:54.440 I think it would come I think primarily you look 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.400 back to the Q and on conspiracy of of you know, 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:05.040 the there there's this big you know, massive underground you know, 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:10.440 lizard galaxy of of uh, you know, democrats and celebrities, 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:15.480 you know, stealing children and and doing all kinds of stuff. 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:20.760 And that all came from h a person calling himself 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:27.520 himself q uh. You know, many people became convinced by this, 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:32.359 this whole idea of getting really highly classified information inside 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.920 the government. And the idea was at that time was 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:41.599 q Q was was inside you know, it was supportive 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.279 of the Trump administration and fighting back against the so 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:49.240 called deep state, uh, that is that is trying to 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:53.520 thwart his agenda. And so you know, if you if 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.520 you think that, if you can believe that that there's 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.559 some you know, person inside the government who's not only 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:05.880 sharing all this really highly classified information with the public 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:12.320 on a message board. Uh. I don't see much separation. 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:14.880 I don't see how you you know, how we go 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:19.120 from that too, believing that Trump is still president. That's 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.000 not that wacky when you think about it. You know, 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.320 I think what always, what always makes me laugh within it, though, 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.960 is the the belief in the fun parts, the wearing 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:31.880 of the uniform and the stars and the power, but 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:34.839 none of the accountability of what has happened. You know. 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:38.880 We discuss the critical things that people are critical of 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:41.200 the Afghanistan withdrawal, and the person that I talked to 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.560 very clearly was like, no, no, he had nothing to 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.320 do with that. It's almost as if you know, in 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:50.240 military parliance, you have a dress uniform. Correct. I'm not 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.080 somebody who was in the military, but I've definitely watched 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:55.800 films that are about the military, and I have to 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.719 understand that you have a dress uniform and you also 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:01.520 as an infant treatment you're in Marines, correct, correct, Yes, 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.760 you also have something you might wear functionally to go 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:10.000 do dirtier, more applicable things. Right, camouflage, Yes, camo I 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.320 knew it, Camo. I've done all the research, and it's 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:15.560 as if believing in this theory is a belief that 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.240 you only get to wear your dress whites and that 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.600 there is no secondary part to it all, which is 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:24.760 sort of emblematic of the whole American thought process. Um, 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:27.599 I think you you actually you bring up a really 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:31.200 good point, which is a lot of these conspiracy theories 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:36.240 they hinge on people's ignorance of the military. You know, 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:41.440 less than less than one percent of the of Americans 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:45.080 serve in the military. Like it's a very small number. 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:49.280 During World War Two, we had about ten percent of 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.280 of the of Americans in the in in the military. 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:55.520 Of course we're fighting a gigantic war, and that makes sense, 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:59.799 but that, um, that number is is so much smaller 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:04.880 now out and so what we what I've found from um, 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:08.320 you know, just reporting on these issues for the past decade, 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.600 being in the Marine Corps before that, most people have 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:17.440 no idea how the military works, you know, I think, um, 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:19.640 a lot of people think that we just you know, 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.600 march around, we salute and and then you know, they 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.800 like press a button, break glass and you go to war, 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.960 and like there's a black box in there, nobody really 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:34.080 understands what it's actually like. And and you know, the 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.760 thing is that most of it's really boring. You know, 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:40.240 we're just sitting around waiting, waiting to do things. Um, 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:43.240 we're doing maintenance or other kinds of stuff. But those 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.520 are less sexy parts of the military that the military 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:50.400 itself doesn't really share all that much with the public. Um. 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.960 And you know that ignorance really feeds these ideas. You 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.880 know that the military is you know, doing nefarious things 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:01.640 and you know they're up to no good. And and also, um, 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:05.160 also the the idea that the military can do these 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:10.320 amazing things with ease, you know, like uh like like 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:14.560 the Benghazi attack could have just been stopped just just 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:19.640 easily by by you know, the military just swooping in 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:23.400 there with jets from Italy and stuff like that. Um, 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:27.960 it takes more planning and and actually you know, diving 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.920 in and figuring out how to actually do things. Uh. 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:35.520 It's it's like it's it's almost like a comic book 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:39.880 caricature of the military. Is what what you get from 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.000 from a lot of Americans who just you know, don't 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.679 really know any better. You're telling me even if you've 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.280 played Call of Duty, that's not enough information to fully 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:51.280 understand how the military works. I mean, the call of 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:55.360 call of duty is realistic for combat experience. I know, 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.480 enough said, enough said, enough said. I I much like 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.640 if you watched Wag the Dog, you understand American politics 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.760 as well. That and maybe half of American president. You 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.000 get it. You know how this thing works. Now you 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.199 should talk about it and fear the institutions and of themselves. 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.240 If call of duty was more realistic, there would be 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:20.280 soldiers sitting around really bored, you know, smoking cigarettes, uh, 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.160 you know, really you know, bitching about their chain of 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:27.960 command and complaining about um, complaining about you know, going 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.839 out on patrol that day. Like that's that's the more 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:36.439 realistic version of combat operations. The joke is, like, the 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:40.560 joke is like, you know, combat is is ninety or 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:45.880 one percent sheer, terror and boredom, and that that usually 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:49.400 is is pretty accurate. Yeah, so, like bitching and moaning 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:51.520 is a part of the military. So play a call 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:53.720 of duty, but then make sure you watch a good 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.680 season of curb your enthusiasm to get the full understanding. Right, 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:00.640 I knew it, I knew it. U I want to 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:02.720 actually fill out this. We're talking about the military here, 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:04.960 but sort of our conversation today is going to fold 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:09.480 in also the worlds of UH militias and citizen militians. 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.560 So so I want to bring amy in amy. A 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:16.199 lot of these conspiracy theories, they become incoherent the further 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:18.240 you look into them. But I want to talk about 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:22.080 what you've studied citizen militia's. Can you define for our 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.040 audience what is a militia compared to what being in 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.920 the military is. And also, as somebody who studied who's 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.280 talked about militias, I'm curious if you have a militia 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.080 code name, because I do and it's cold Brew and 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.559 it got me a lot of cred with the Georgia 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:40.120 State militia. Does everybody here get a cool nickname? Yes, sir? 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:42.440 If you don't have one, will help get one for you. 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.880 Could I be cold Brew or if that's taken a 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:50.840 French price, cold Brew works better? I think you like that, Yes, sir, 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:56.080 feels very bold yet smooth. Finished. Well to start with 0:10:56.120 --> 0:11:01.560 your first question, US domestic militias are civilian militias. They 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:06.800 are intended to exist outside the military, outside the National Guard. 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:09.960 And their members are people who really see it as 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:14.719 their personal civic duty to kind of act in concert 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.280 in some ways with the military, to be almost a 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:23.760 civilian line of defense against potentially invasion, potentially natural disasters, 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.840 anything in between. A lot of the members actually have 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:32.720 military training. Among the groups I studied, about two thirds 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.800 of the leaders and about one third of the other 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:40.720 members had some service experience, and many of the others 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.520 who did not kind of felt like they had missed out. 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:45.880 They had wanted to be in the service but didn't 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.520 qualify medically or for some of the reason didn't get 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:53.480 that service, and this was almost like a surrogate for them. Um. 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:57.720 Their experiences were really about trying to, in their view, 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.679 stand up for their country, defend the constitution, um in 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.600 the American way of life in terms of how they 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:08.520 specifically defined it. And as to a code name, do 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.760 you have a code name? Some of them actually did 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.040 call me renegade because I would study them at a 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.920 time when it was not really popular for liberal academics 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.920 to be dealing with more conservative topics. Well, I will 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.160 say this, I was talking with Amy offline a little 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:26.080 bit about this, but uh, I read Amy's dissertation years 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:31.040 ago because I am fascinating about militia's. I'm from Michigan, 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.760 which if you're into militia's, Michigan is a great place 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.439 to be. We got some o G militia action happening there, um, 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.280 and I think what's fascinating about it is, Uh, there's 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.600 a lot of talk about the effects of militia's and 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:47.560 extremist groups uh recently, but you've been doing this for 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:49.439 quite some time right now, when a lot of people 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.800 I don't think look into is what is appealing about militia's, 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.040 the process of militia's and the average militia go er. 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.160 I think what I noticed with some of the time 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.600 that I spent with a few militia members. I spent 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.400 some time with some oathkeepers recently, uh, just hanging out, 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.120 having fun, watching mail boxes, trying to save the election. 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.520 And I hung out with some folks in Georgia way 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.840 back when. And I think the military side of it 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.559 is fascinating because there are some of those people, oathkeepers 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:19.079 in particular, who are ex military folks, ex cops, who 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.280 see it as an extension of their service. They made 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.640 an oath to this country into the Constitution and this 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.280 is their extension of it. There are other folks too 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:33.160 who feel like uh just uh day players who wanted 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.280 to be in the military, and perhaps some had very 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:41.880 interesting stories about um an inability to get into the military. Uh, 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.320 like you had an astigmatism, So now you wanna be 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.720 in the militia. It's good enough? Okay, fine, I get it. 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.880 Seeing a lot of cars playing here, there's military here, 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:53.400 and then there's a lot of these people who are 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:57.200 pretending to be military here. You know how you know, 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.679 because they don't have badges, They just have notes from 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:03.880 their life that says you can go for the weekend 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.959 and hang out with your friends, but be back on time. 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.360 But there's this funny balance of people wanting to serve 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:13.199 people pretending to serve. And I guess I'm curious too 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.320 of how you see that aligned with their relationships to 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:21.000 the to to actual military forces. Did you find is 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.160 do you often see it as in concert with the 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.280 American uh military system, or is oftentimes some of these 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:32.280 militias looking to act in case the military in and 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.720 of itself is something that turns on the American people. Yeah, 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.200 the relationship that militias have with the military is frankly 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:43.560 quite complicated. It's something that they tend to like in 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:47.040 the abstract, in theory at least, because they believe that 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.680 military and national defense are kind of the primary functions 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.560 of what the federal government is supposed to do. It's 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.240 one of the few legitimate functions of the federal government 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:00.120 from their perspective. But they think that in practice the 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:04.040 military is prone to corruption or other problems that they 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.600 see as being kind of endemic to the government as 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.000 a whole. So it tends to be the case, and 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.880 there there can be variation across units or even across 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:15.240 sometimes individual militia members, but it tends to be the 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:19.720 case that they really honor and revere veterans and service 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.120 members themselves, but have a lot of distrust for the 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.680 military as an institution, have a lot of distrust for 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:31.000 military leadership. Paul, Does that go both ways? You know, 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:34.120 the military world and those circles. What is the feeling 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.800 for those in service when they look at the modern 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.840 militia movement. There's military people in the militias, but also 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.640 there are those people who are kind of uh, you know, 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.920 we kind of call it stolen valor. If you're trying 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.880 to kind of um, you know, represent yourself as as 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.400 part of the military, you know, and you know, like 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.960 some people will do it a whole lot, you know, 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:00.320 throwing medals on their chest and stuff like that. Others 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.560 will just kind of pretend and where the gear and 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.440 you know there's like there's air software's and stuff that 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:10.200 where all the gear. They look very military and represent 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.160 themselves as if you know, like hey, I get yourr 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.880 thank you for your service, free meal at Denny's or something. Um. 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:22.680 But I I think I think, you know, military members 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.320 probably looking at the militia, they think they're a bunch 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.960 of geeks. You know, like you know, get a job 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.480 like get do do uh you know, if you want 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.920 to join the military, then join the military. It just 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:38.680 looks like this kind of pretend defense thing and it 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:45.120 really ignores the reality of of military operations and what 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.800 the U. S. Military is capable of. You know, if 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.040 you're looking at a militia, if you're in a militia 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.240 and uh you're you're there, you know you're training to 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:59.240 uh defend the constitution whatever that that that idea they 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:03.040 think they are doing. Um. But you know, bottom line 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.800 is is they're also thinking about potentially going up against 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:12.840 the U. S. Military. Um, and that's not a winning battle, 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:18.120 you know, like, uh, guys with guys with small arms 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:20.680 aren't going to really do much against an army with 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:25.880 you know, drones and and missiles and all kinds of stuff. Uh. 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:30.080 And so it's it, it seems a little bit lopsided. UM. 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:35.400 But I think I think also they tap into the 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:40.520 military legitimacy of of wearing a uniform and and looking 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:45.359 like you're organized, um, and you know, following some sort 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:49.400 of chain of command. These are these are military concepts, 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:55.960 and they they make you look you know, more professional. Um. 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.040 And that's the reason why they seek out military members 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:03.440 and veterans, because hows that lends them credibility and legitimacy 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:07.639 among um, among their their followers and supporters. You know, 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.280 even even if you're even if you're you know, if 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:14.240 you're a uh you know, some nerd who could never 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:16.399 could never get into the military, Well you can at 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.600 least join the militia and be close to you know, 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.640 former military members and kind of it kind of brushes 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.959 off on you, Um, you are spilling that t spilling 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.840 that tia that militia. Well, also I do think it 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:34.040 also plays off of also the public perspective of the military. 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.359 There's as as a civilian, I think there is a 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.560 general misunderstanding of the ranks and the difficulties and the 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.840 world of the military, and so somebody purporting to be 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.879 a militia member who wears the outfit to talk to 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:53.240 the talk um in a public setting is almost treated 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.880 as a person with law enforcement bona fides or has 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.040 has put in the time. It's it's like you, if 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:02.520 you buy an ugh T shirts with flags on them 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.359 and you have good enough posture than liberal elites like 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.240 myself are going to let you get on a plane 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:11.199 before them and they're not gonna say anything about it. 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.520 So you can you can steal enough valor to get 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:19.320 you in certain positions. Um, It's it's interesting. I'm curious. Amy. 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.640 We talked about some of the perhaps with the goofier 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:27.080 sides of that UH and the desire to be more 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.320 legitimate like the military. But you look at something like 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:36.560 January six and you have militia members, oathkeepers, proud boys, 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.840 people who are storming the capital with a legitimate fear 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.280 that the military in and of itself could be utilized 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.479 against them. The one thing you couldn't help but notice 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.199 was just how many people look like they were preparing 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:54.240 for battle. From the tactical vest to the pitchforks, this 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.600 rally felt charged. You can tell these people really love 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:01.040 America by the number of weapons they brought to hurt 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.880 other Americans. Where where where does a theory like that 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:08.000 come from? And how do they get to that point? Well, 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:09.840 you know, I think I can come from a few 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.840 different places, but among some of the specific groups that 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.880 I have spent time with, it's come in part from 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:19.159 an interesting dynamic where everything that Paul just described as 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:21.720 true that there are these folks who really want to 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:25.840 attach on to the military sort of aura, if you will, 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.000 and try to kind of claim some of that legitimacy. 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:33.800 But also there are veterans who actively seek out something 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.320 like a militia to join, and that can be for 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:40.040 one of two reasons. Um One reason is that they 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.919 kind of miss the camaraderie of the military. They've been 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.760 honorably discharged, and they want to find a space where 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.320 people are trying to look up to them and learn 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.680 from some of their experiences. On the other hand, I've 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:56.359 encountered some folks who really did not enjoy their military 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:59.640 experience to say the least. Um, they really felt like 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.680 there is no legitimate purpose to some of the conflicts 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.880 that were involved in. One man in particular, for example, 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:10.040 really believes um that Desert Storm was truly all about 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:13.840 experimentation on service members, that there was no other legitimate 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:18.520 purpose for it. He came back incredibly angry and told 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:20.960 me that he wanted to join something like a militia 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.840 as a way to figure out how to fight back 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:28.320 against the government, to take a proactive stand against the government. 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:31.040 So I think some of that kind of my mentality 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:34.600 kind of seeps in there where even some people who 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:38.240 have direct military experience kind of feed those narratives that 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:41.840 the military might be the enemy. And usually that narrative 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:43.920 is not about the rank and file, but again about 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:46.920 the leadership or about the government, and then they're misleading 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:48.720 the rank and file, and they're they're doing all this 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:53.320 nefarious stuff that most military service members may not even 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.720 be aware is happening. So they feel like it's their 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:58.800 job to raise awareness of that to fight back against it. 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.000 In some ways, that's the logic that kind of undergirds 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:04.600 the Oathkeepers as an organization as a whole, because their 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:08.920 their whole purpose was supposedly to remind military and law 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.760 enforcement about the oaths that they took to serve the 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:14.960 people as opposed to serving the government. I want to 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:18.320 talk a little bit about that distrust there, Paul. You've 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:21.119 written and you've been very critical of some of the 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:25.840 conspiracy theories that have been perpetrated by Donald Trump. You've 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:30.520 called him America's crazy uncle because of these conspiracies that 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:35.520 he has spread, including one that claims Joe Biden killed 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.600 Seal Team six to cover up the reality that Osama 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:41.800 bin Laden was never shot and it was a body double, 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:45.800 which is wild, but it was something that he pushed 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:48.160 out there. What what what is the story behind that one? 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:53.639 So this one is very very strange and weird, and 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:58.920 it's it's worth noting right away that Rob O'Neil, the 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:02.960 the Seal Team six member who who who claimed to 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.760 have shot Bin Laden, he's credited with killing Bin Laden 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:11.760 on that raid. He was and he's also a big 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:16.480 fan of Donald Trump. But even he was like, whoa bro, 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:18.760 can you kind of back this off a little bit? 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:21.359 And and and pushed back on this theory. It goes 0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:25.000 back to the Seal Team sixth raid an Osama bin Laden. 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:30.399 This happened in the seals went into Pakistan, they raided 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:35.800 bin Laden's house, they killed him um and they they 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:38.720 took his body back. They got a ton of intelligence 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:45.400 for it. It was a very successful operation by by 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:49.879 all kinds of measures. Uh. Soon after that, I'd say, 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:54.280 you know, maybe within months or so, there was a 0:23:54.320 --> 0:24:01.680