Speaker 1: Welcome to go Ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Speaker 1: Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. Rolling on the full.
Speaker 1: Loafing is a thing I can. I've seen you know,
Speaker 1: We've all seen people do it. I've done it, I've
Speaker 1: kidding For me now, the work is to want what
Speaker 1: I have, even kind of shinny stuff. You know, that's
Speaker 1: my work. It's it's imperfect. So let me ask you
Speaker 1: a question about actors because you are yeah, me too.
Speaker 1: We are old, funny duddies. We go to sleep at ten,
Speaker 1: we wake up at six, we go to bed at eight,
Speaker 1: So there are more funny duddies than you. You are
Speaker 1: the funny duddiest. Yes, welcome to go ask Allie. I'm
Speaker 1: Ali Wentworth Now. One of the most requested topics by
Speaker 1: listeners is making friends as adults. So for all you
Speaker 1: listeners out there, today's your lucky day. As important as food, oxygen,
Speaker 1: and water. Friendship, you know everybody has struggled with friendship,
Speaker 1: how we attach ourselves to people, how we detach ourselves
Speaker 1: to people. I know for me that my friendships are
Speaker 1: as meaningful and integral to my life as my husband
Speaker 1: and my children and everything else. And friendship is a
Speaker 1: very big subject in my house for me because I
Speaker 1: hold my friendships so dear. But also I have two
Speaker 1: teenage daughters who are constantly trying to chart the waters
Speaker 1: of friendship and all the pain and elation that goes
Speaker 1: with it. And my mother, who at eighty eight years old,
Speaker 1: has found herself a widow and with many of her
Speaker 1: friends deceased. So how do we maintain friendships? How do
Speaker 1: we make new friendships? My guest today is Dr Marissa G. Franco.
Speaker 1: She's a psychologist, professor, and author of Platonic, How the
Speaker 1: Science of Attachment can help You Make and Keep Friends.
Speaker 1: She writes about friendship for Psychology Today and has been
Speaker 1: a featured connection expert from major publications like The New
Speaker 1: York Times, The Telegraph, Advice. Marissa is a professor at
Speaker 1: the University of Maryland and speaks on belonging at corporations, universities,
Speaker 1: and more. Welcome, Marissa, So happy to be talking with you.
Speaker 1: I am so glad you're here because I find that
Speaker 1: female friendship is such an integral part of all of
Speaker 1: our lives. And I take my friendships very seriously, and
Speaker 1: I have to say that my my friendships have caused
Speaker 1: me even more pain than my love relationships in the past.
Speaker 1: So I just ate your book right up, Platonic how
Speaker 1: the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends,
Speaker 1: because there's so much there, and there's so much there
Speaker 1: that I want to give my daughters too, because is
Speaker 1: obviously they're younger than me, and they're dealing with friendships
Speaker 1: in a different way that I am as an old lady. Now, um,
Speaker 1: but the most important the theme in your book is
Speaker 1: really attachment and the whole theory of attachment. So let's
Speaker 1: let's just dive into that right away. Yeah. Well, first
Speaker 1: of all, Alliam, I'm so honored to hear that you
Speaker 1: want to share it with your daughters. That really touches me. Oh,
Speaker 1: I sent your book Platonic to my daughter in college
Speaker 1: because I feel like they're always struggling with friendships, and
Speaker 1: you know, from from kindergarten on you're you're constantly dealing
Speaker 1: with how you attached to people. So let's start with
Speaker 1: attachment theory. So attachment theory is basically the idea that
Speaker 1: in our early lives with our parents, we begin to
Speaker 1: develop a certain template for how people will treat us,
Speaker 1: and after that we we developed that template, we engage
Speaker 1: in like confirmation biases, where we see people interacting with
Speaker 1: us in ways that match that template and almost ignore
Speaker 1: times that they don't write. And then we build a
Speaker 1: number of strategies in reaction to these assumptions that we
Speaker 1: think people in reaction to these ways that we think
Speaker 1: other people will treat us. So, you know, what does
Speaker 1: that mean in a more practical way, If you're anxiously attached,
Speaker 1: your template says people are going to abandon me unless
Speaker 1: I cling cling cling close to them, right, And so
Speaker 1: you know, anxiously attached people, they often misspire and think
Speaker 1: they're being rejected even when they're not. They often give
Speaker 1: too much in friendships because again they need they feel
Speaker 1: like they need to to feel worthy to feel like
Speaker 1: they'll keep other people around. They don't stand up for themselves,
Speaker 1: they don't have boundaries, they don't bring up conflicts again
Speaker 1: fear that other people are gonna abandon you. Sometimes they
Speaker 1: can also be quite demanding because of the sense that
Speaker 1: I need you to do this to prove that I
Speaker 1: am worthy to me right, And and sometimes they don't
Speaker 1: necessarily consider other people have different needs outside of them,
Speaker 1: or reacting to them in ways that aren't necessarily personal. Right,
Speaker 1: and then you have avoidingly attached people. Their template their
Speaker 1: early childhood was usually I got food, I got water,
Speaker 1: I got shelter, but there was nothing emotionally. It was
Speaker 1: sort of like emotional neglect. I was told to handle
Speaker 1: things on my own, you know, be a big boy,
Speaker 1: be a big girl. And what that means is that
Speaker 1: avoidingly attached people are very uncomfortable with emotions, very uncomfortable
Speaker 1: with intimacy. Their template says, other people can't be trustworthy,
Speaker 1: so they tend to invest less in friendship. They tend
Speaker 1: to not be as vulnerable in friendship, they tend to
Speaker 1: ghost more. Um, you know, people that are friends with
Speaker 1: them feel like I've known them for so long, but
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I really know them because they're
Speaker 1: not necessarily vulnerable. Or I don't feel reciprocity. I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm putting in all this effort but the other
Speaker 1: person isn't. Because avoidingly attached people fundamentally enjoy friendship less
Speaker 1: because they see it as a liability or responsibility. Right.
Speaker 1: And then you have securely attached people who have learned
Speaker 1: in their relationships. And again, it's it starts with your
Speaker 1: parents or caretakers. But it evolves, right, so it's not
Speaker 1: just your early relationships, and they trust that they can
Speaker 1: build relationships with people. They trust that other people like them.
Speaker 1: They are comfortable being vulnerable, but in a way, that's
Speaker 1: that oversharing, right. If someone withdraws from them or doesn't
Speaker 1: like them, they kind of walk away instead of work harder,
Speaker 1: which you tend to see with more anxiously attached people,
Speaker 1: they're better at initiating friendships, less likely to dissolve friendships.
Speaker 1: Their friendships are are very stable, right, And that's why
Speaker 1: I call them like the super friends of connection. And
Speaker 1: I think what we learn from attachment theory and what
Speaker 1: I argue in Platonic is that our personality is fundamentally
Speaker 1: a reflection of our past experiences of connection. Whether we
Speaker 1: are open, warm, trusting, critical, aggressive, you know, generous, all
Speaker 1: of these are predicted by whether we've connected well in
Speaker 1: the past. But not only that, then who we are
Speaker 1: affects how we connect. The people that are best at
Speaker 1: connecting now typically have healthier history of relationships, which have
Speaker 1: given them the template that other people are trustworthy, that
Speaker 1: they can connect with people that allows them to continue
Speaker 1: to connect whereas if you've had a very difficult history
Speaker 1: that you haven't processed, it can lead you with a
Speaker 1: set of beliefs and a set of strategies that actually
Speaker 1: make it a little bit more difficult to form relationships
Speaker 1: and friendships in the future. Okay, So, can somebody be
Speaker 1: born with anxious attachment just sort of based on their
Speaker 1: personality or is it environmental? Yeah, this is a great question, um,
Speaker 1: something I want to clarify because I tell people about
Speaker 1: attachment theory and they're like, good for those people with
Speaker 1: healthy parents, Like, Okay, you know I'm at a luck then,
Speaker 1: And I don't think that's what I'm trying to convey,
Speaker 1: especially for me as someone who's gone from anxious to
Speaker 1: more secure. Your attachment can fundamentally change over time. Some
Speaker 1: research finds that it's more likely to change than stay
Speaker 1: the same after you, you know, you have different relationships
Speaker 1: that that kind of adjust your sculpture template over time. Right,
Speaker 1: And I think knowing about our attachment style isn't deterministic
Speaker 1: that we're going to be doomed because we had doomed
Speaker 1: relationships in the past, but instead it allows us to
Speaker 1: instead say nobody can be trusted, you know, everybody's gonna
Speaker 1: abandon me. And if you feel like that is the
Speaker 1: truth that's out there in the world, you have no agency,
Speaker 1: You're just powerless. Right. But when you know how your
Speaker 1: own behavior can influence people in ways that make it
Speaker 1: more likely that your fears are going to come to
Speaker 1: fruition because you sort of behave in ways that make
Speaker 1: these behaviors more likely to be true, then you can
Speaker 1: change your behaviors and you can develop really good relationships
Speaker 1: with people. So I hope that it can be more empowering.
Speaker 1: But related to your question, Ali it there is a
Speaker 1: genetic component to attachment. Um. There's this theory and psychology
Speaker 1: called the orchid hypothesis, which is basically the idea that
Speaker 1: some of us are more vulnerable to our environments, whether
Speaker 1: good or bad. Right. So if these these more sensitive
Speaker 1: folks um genetically right, are in a good environment, they're
Speaker 1: going to thrive. If they're in a bad environment, are
Speaker 1: going to be devastated. Right. Others of us are kind
Speaker 1: of like we have less of a range, Like we're
Speaker 1: gonna be kind of similar. We're not as affected by
Speaker 1: our environment, so our outcomes are going to be like
Speaker 1: sort of similar ish whether we have really good environment
Speaker 1: or a bad one, right, And so there is that
Speaker 1: genetic difference which is partially how much are we absorbing
Speaker 1: our environment that that differs between a lot of us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I think, you know, for instance, I'm thinking about
Speaker 1: one of my daughters, who, you know, the second she
Speaker 1: came out in the hospital, she was mommy, mommy, mommy,
Speaker 1: and she was a clingy baby. She wouldn't let anyone
Speaker 1: else hold her. And you know, I think she falls
Speaker 1: under the category of anxious attachment, and it's it's, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe I coddled her too much, But I don't look
Speaker 1: at it as oh, did we not give her enough love?
Speaker 1: Did we not you know, nurture her enough. We did
Speaker 1: in huge amounts. She literally was born like that, like
Speaker 1: as a baby, whereas my other daughter was like, hey,
Speaker 1: put me in the crib, I don't care, I'm fine,
Speaker 1: And she has, you know, she has more of the calmer,
Speaker 1: kind of less attached personality, and so in some ways,
Speaker 1: I do think it's genetic. Yeah. Yeah, I think what
Speaker 1: you're talking about is a temperament and the psychology, which
Speaker 1: is like we're kind of born with a certain temperament
Speaker 1: that then can sort of interact with our environment in
Speaker 1: certain ways, right, because temperaments are also going to draw
Speaker 1: something different out of a parent, right. Yes. Absolutely, you
Speaker 1: might react to your babies differently because they have they're
Speaker 1: reacting to you differently. Right. So it's it's really interesting
Speaker 1: how these two things can intersect. Yes. And so one
Speaker 1: of the things I am fascinated by in your book
Speaker 1: is the idea of, in terms of friendship, platonic love. Right. So,
Speaker 1: platonic love is the love I have, let's say, for
Speaker 1: my girlfriends, and even though they lack sex and fashion,
Speaker 1: they feel to me just as integral to my life
Speaker 1: and as strong as a romantic relationship. Yeah. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: actually I think in platonic I was interested in learning
Speaker 1: the lines between romance and friendship because Angela Chen she
Speaker 1: she has this really great book Ace, and she kind
Speaker 1: of talks about how, you know, in the a sexual community,
Speaker 1: there's very much a distinction between being sexually attracted someone
Speaker 1: and romantically attracted to someone, right, And so sexual attraction
Speaker 1: as I want to have sex with you, Romantic attraction
Speaker 1: is I'm passionate about you, I idealize you, I think
Speaker 1: you're amazing, you feel like my soul ate right. And
Speaker 1: so when we look at relationships between woman friends in particular,
Speaker 1: we see them saying things like you are my soulmate
Speaker 1: and all I want to do is spend my time
Speaker 1: with you, right, And that is sort of sounds like
Speaker 1: it's kind of on the romantic spectrum. And in fact,
Speaker 1: throughout our history, um, you know, in the early seventeen hundreds,
Speaker 1: there was the sense that the genders are so distinct
Speaker 1: that you can only find this true and deep intimacy
Speaker 1: with your friends who share the same gender as you,
Speaker 1: kind of like romance being more of a part of
Speaker 1: friendship than it was marriage. Right, And so at that time,
Speaker 1: friends were holding hands, friends were sharing beds, friends were cuddling,
Speaker 1: right because all of that, m oh, that was normal
Speaker 1: at that time. Now, of course, our script for friendship
Speaker 1: is a lot more limited. Right. But I think if
Speaker 1: we look at if we can differentiate or take a
Speaker 1: fine tiof comb between the differences between all these different
Speaker 1: forms of love, we can see that romantic relationships romantic
Speaker 1: feelings are kind of I would argue, even normal without
Speaker 1: a lot of particularly close and intimate friendships. Okay, so
Speaker 1: let me ask you this, because this is advice that
Speaker 1: I've given my friends, and you can tell me it's
Speaker 1: probably wrong, and I'll make sure I edit this part out.
Speaker 1: But um, I say to my girlfriends that they shouldn't
Speaker 1: expect their partner to be their best friend, because I
Speaker 1: feel like they are setting themselves up let's say when
Speaker 1: they first lived with somebody or marry them, because I
Speaker 1: have found the game changer in my marriage, which is
Speaker 1: a very good marriage, was that when I would go
Speaker 1: to my husband for a lot of kind of scaffolding,
Speaker 1: he he just wasn't the person like I never was
Speaker 1: satiated by what I got back from him. But if
Speaker 1: I went to my girlfriends, you know, they like to
Speaker 1: chew on some of the stuff I like to chew
Speaker 1: on for a lot longer. And yet my life path
Speaker 1: is with my husband and sort of the big issues
Speaker 1: I deal with with my husband and obviously have sex
Speaker 1: with my husband. But my girlfriends I've sort of kept
Speaker 1: for a lot of the other emotional stuff that I
Speaker 1: sometimes think it's too inundating for my husband. Meaning I
Speaker 1: say to my girlfriends, don't necessarily go into marriage with
Speaker 1: this idea that this person is your all, your best friend,
Speaker 1: your lover, or your everything. Am I right or am
Speaker 1: I wrong? I agree with the idea that your spouse
Speaker 1: should not be your everything, and in fact I argue
Speaker 1: that being in a healthy romantic relationship or healthy marriage
Speaker 1: really requires you to have people to support you outside
Speaker 1: of that marriage, because the research finds that when you're
Speaker 1: in conflict with your spouse, it disrupts your stress hormone
Speaker 1: release in unhealthy ways unless you have quality connection outside
Speaker 1: that marriage. That when you make a friend, not only
Speaker 1: are you less depressed, your spouse is less depressed too.
Speaker 1: Um that people that you know, related to what you said, Alie,
Speaker 1: engage in emotion ships, which means you go to different
Speaker 1: people to help you work through different emotions, they have
Speaker 1: higher overall well being. That women who have close friends
Speaker 1: out of the marriage are more resilient to strife within
Speaker 1: the marriag much whereas people that only rely on a spouse,
Speaker 1: they're very devastated when things go wrong. Right their mental health,
Speaker 1: according to the research, is just more impacted by the
Speaker 1: natural ebbs and flows in that relationship. And what that
Speaker 1: means is that if something goes wrong and you're completely
Speaker 1: off kilter, it's harder to heal from it, Whereas if
Speaker 1: something goes wrong, and you go out and you get
Speaker 1: some support, you return to your relationship in a centered
Speaker 1: place to be like, we're not enemies, let's work this out.
Speaker 1: I've process of my feelings. I'm not in a reactive
Speaker 1: place that is such a great resource for your marriage.
Speaker 1: And so I definitely agree with you that this has
Speaker 1: been a truth throughout our entire species that somehow we've
Speaker 1: forgotten in recent decades, that we've always needed an entire
Speaker 1: community to feel whole. And so I hope that my
Speaker 1: message of friendship is really really important while I came
Speaker 1: to it going through breakups and feeling like I feel
Speaker 1: so bad in these breakups because I feel like romantic
Speaker 1: love is the only love that makes me lovable, and
Speaker 1: I'm questioning whether that's true because I see how much
Speaker 1: my friends love me. Right. But I think this message
Speaker 1: of we have to maybe see love unless of a hierarchy,
Speaker 1: so that we can value and put effort into our
Speaker 1: platonic partnerships just like we do our marriage, right, I
Speaker 1: think it benefits all of us, whether we're single or
Speaker 1: whether we're married. I would go so far as to
Speaker 1: say that in the past what I found was so
Speaker 1: kind of helpful to my well being, And you talk
Speaker 1: about a wellness group at the beginning of the book.
Speaker 1: UM was I've had versions of that. I've had lunch clubs,
Speaker 1: I've had book clubs. UM I have basically now a
Speaker 1: like a menopause club with a group of women my age.
Speaker 1: That is, so the sole purpose is to support each other.
Speaker 1: And you know, when somebody's parent dies or a divorce,
Speaker 1: or you know, any kind of life shift, we kind
Speaker 1: of circle the wagons and and I think it's so important.
Speaker 1: And I think that there's something about the group of
Speaker 1: women that kind of quilt together, the kind of support
Speaker 1: that is impossible to find anywhere else. Yeah. I also
Speaker 1: love a group, you know, monthly Spanish speaking group and
Speaker 1: a bi weekly dinner club. And you know, I talked
Speaker 1: about the world this group. I love having groups for everything.
Speaker 1: But what we're doing when we create those groups is
Speaker 1: that we are creating the infrastructure for friendship to happen organically.
Speaker 1: So this sociologist Rebecca Adams, she argues that for friendship
Speaker 1: to happen organically, we need repeated, unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability,
Speaker 1: which is school Jim lunch recess, right, But as adults,
Speaker 1: we don't often inhabit those environments unless we seek them
Speaker 1: out intentionally. Because work, we're not often vulnerable at work,
Speaker 1: So we're seeing each other repeatedly, we're only showing a
Speaker 1: professional quote unquote side of ourselves. We don't actually know
Speaker 1: each other. Right, So if we rely on that template
Speaker 1: from childhood, we are going to be lonely and in
Speaker 1: fact as adults. A study found that people that think
Speaker 1: friendship happened without effort are more lonely five years later,
Speaker 1: whereas those that see it as taking effort are less lonely. Right.
Speaker 1: And so when we create these groups, right, we are
Speaker 1: giving ourselves continuous, unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability. We are
Speaker 1: creating the ingredients for our friendships to sort of take
Speaker 1: off and strengthen on our own without us having to
Speaker 1: continue to product them in the same way. And it's
Speaker 1: interesting because I have my mother now, who is in
Speaker 1: her late eighties. She was somebody that had very strong,
Speaker 1: incredible friendships in her lifetime, and she's at a point
Speaker 1: now and you talk about widows in your book, but
Speaker 1: she's at a point now where her husband is dead
Speaker 1: and all her close female friends are dead. And one
Speaker 1: of the things that she and I talked about a
Speaker 1: lot is how she at can find community now, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, because she's not even out and about.
Speaker 1: And I said, I know that this sounds simplistic, but
Speaker 1: you know you should invite people over to play. You know,
Speaker 1: you know there art classes and groups like and it
Speaker 1: used to those sort of things when you would hear
Speaker 1: people say it sounded so kind of perfunctory and like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, okay, I'm not going to join a group.
Speaker 1: But as I get older, I realized, yeah, yeah, you
Speaker 1: kind of have to, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 1: for her well being, she needs to figure out a
Speaker 1: way in her late eighties now to find friendship. In
Speaker 1: mind that and as much as she you know, needs
Speaker 1: to get her heart checked and bone density, all of
Speaker 1: it exactly. There's a lot more to come after the
Speaker 1: short break and we're back. It's funny what you were
Speaker 1: saying to earlier about vulnerability, because I have found that
Speaker 1: and and this is not gender prejudice, just in my
Speaker 1: in my life, I have noticed that a lot of
Speaker 1: my male friends have a fear of vulnerability, and therefore
Speaker 1: their friendships aren't as close. And even my husband, I
Speaker 1: would say that that's true with him. Yeah, and you
Speaker 1: are right that vulnerability. First of all, um, men are
Speaker 1: about half as likely to to access support within their
Speaker 1: friendships in a given week than woman and that that
Speaker 1: really does hinder men's friendships. You know, men men have
Speaker 1: tend to have these more companionate friends where you're hanging
Speaker 1: out around an activity, and that is a great form
Speaker 1: of friendship to write, but it has its limitations. We've
Speaker 1: seen that in the pandemic right. If you have friends
Speaker 1: that you're just hanging out with to to play golf
Speaker 1: and you can't see each other, someone moves or you
Speaker 1: have a pandemic, right, which hopefully doesn't happen again. But
Speaker 1: you know, if people move or they become long distance,
Speaker 1: then obviously your ability to maintain that connection is very limited.
Speaker 1: And fundamentally, being vulnerable, it does increase the depth and
Speaker 1: the closeness. We know from the research that people that
Speaker 1: intimately self disclose are liked more than other people. People
Speaker 1: that express negative emotion. Although we think, you know, friendship
Speaker 1: is positive vibes only, they actually are more likely to
Speaker 1: make friends in their traditions in their transition to college.
Speaker 1: And we also know that it's very necessary for our
Speaker 1: mental health and well being. Right. That throughout the book,
Speaker 1: I think you'll see that all of the things that
Speaker 1: we do that create connection also tend to improve our
Speaker 1: mental health and well being, vulnerability included. Right, So, people
Speaker 1: that conceal tend to be more concealing of information about themselves,
Speaker 1: they experience more depression, more suicidality. One study that looked
Speaker 1: at a hundred and six factors that predict depression found
Speaker 1: that having it a confidance, someone you're confiding is is
Speaker 1: the number one factor that prevents depression. And so I
Speaker 1: think in the in the American culture, we kind of
Speaker 1: have this very false ideal that to be strong means
Speaker 1: I never need anyone and I'm handling things on my
Speaker 1: own at all times. Right, And the research binds that
Speaker 1: people that are like that, they tend to experience more
Speaker 1: physical health issues. They're not releasing their emotions, so they
Speaker 1: manifest physically. They experience more you know, headaches, more gas
Speaker 1: through intestinal issues. It's not that they go away or
Speaker 1: those emotions aren't there, it's just that they're they're kind
Speaker 1: of wreaking havoc on you physically. It's even if you
Speaker 1: don't if you can't necessarily be aware of it, mentally right.
Speaker 1: And so when we see the people that actually are
Speaker 1: the most resilient, it's the securely attached people. And that
Speaker 1: security comes from I shared myself with other people. They
Speaker 1: responded in a loving and accepting way, and I internalize
Speaker 1: that into being part of my sense of self. But
Speaker 1: I would say with the anxiety attachment, and I can
Speaker 1: speak for myself, but with anxiety attachment, there's obviously the
Speaker 1: fear of vulnerability. But what happens when you are vulnerable
Speaker 1: with somebody else You express a secretive part of yourself
Speaker 1: or you know, vulnerable party of yourself, and it freaks
Speaker 1: them out or it causes them to pull away. Then
Speaker 1: you you it's like it's more damage than if you hadn't. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, and you're right that it's actually better
Speaker 1: to not be vulnerable if the other person isn't safe.
Speaker 1: But you don't know that, right, Yeah, and you don't
Speaker 1: know that. But I also want to differentiate between oversharing
Speaker 1: and vulnerability. Um anxiously attached people, right, they're they're afraid
Speaker 1: that other people are going to reject and abandon them.
Speaker 1: So often their vulnerability can come from a place of
Speaker 1: I want to test you to see if you'll abandon me,
Speaker 1: rather than I feel safe with you, and as a
Speaker 1: reflection of that relationship, I am then going to be
Speaker 1: vulnerable with you. Right, And so it isn't as authentic
Speaker 1: because it's like I'm doing this to test you and
Speaker 1: see your reaction and decide whether you'll stay around, whereas
Speaker 1: a vulnerable act is more like I'm discerning that I
Speaker 1: feel safe in this moment, and that is what is
Speaker 1: pushing me to share my internal world with you. And
Speaker 1: so I think how we understand ourselves, whether I'm being
Speaker 1: vulnerable or over hearing. Is is this coming from a
Speaker 1: place of fear? Right? Is this coming from a place
Speaker 1: of fear that you're going to pull away from me?
Speaker 1: Versus when I'm vulnerable? Is this coming from a sense
Speaker 1: of safety? Right? Two different things that differentiate those two acts.
Speaker 1: But I also want to say avoidably attached. There was
Speaker 1: a study that looked at people answering, you know, thirty
Speaker 1: six questions. It was even gotten to the New York
Speaker 1: Times thirty six questions to fall in love. When I
Speaker 1: read that study, I found that in general, if we
Speaker 1: go through these thirty six questions of deepening into the
Speaker 1: sy with each other, like when's the last time you cried?
Speaker 1: People feel more connected to each other, right, it generates
Speaker 1: a lot of closeness. But we found is that when
Speaker 1: someone was avoidantly attached, that didn't happen. The voterability did
Speaker 1: not create connection. And that's another important thing to recognize.
Speaker 1: Sometimes your vulnerability didn't land and it wasn't necessarily because
Speaker 1: of your issue per se. I mean, it could be right,
Speaker 1: we just talked about oversharing, but it could also be
Speaker 1: because of someone else's baggage, Like they're not really able
Speaker 1: to sit with feelings like avoidingly attached people, they're not
Speaker 1: able to sit with emotions. They're not able to be
Speaker 1: open to connection without feeling overburdened or without feeling like
Speaker 1: people are putting all this pressure on them and that
Speaker 1: comes from their path. So I think it's also important
Speaker 1: to recognize sometimes our vulnerability may not go right, and
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily our faults. What we can do in
Speaker 1: those moments is observed, take note, and decide in the future,
Speaker 1: I'm going to be vulnerable with someone that does make
Speaker 1: me feel safe. Well that's a great point, So tell
Speaker 1: me what you mean when you say friendship is the
Speaker 1: underdog of relationships. Yeah, yeah, I mean that in so
Speaker 1: many ways, our cultural messages have focused around I'm going
Speaker 1: to say romantic relationship because that's the standard language for doubt, right,
Speaker 1: But we know you know the complexities of that, right.
Speaker 1: You know, people always ask you when are you're going
Speaker 1: to get married? Right? When are you going to find
Speaker 1: the one? When are you gonna find your soul? Many
Speaker 1: when you gonna find your person? When we talk about friends,
Speaker 1: it's like we'll say things like we're just friends, signifying that, oh,
Speaker 1: if we're friends not involved sexually romantically, then it's an
Speaker 1: inferior relationship, or let's be more than friends, signifying again
Speaker 1: that there's this hierarchy that we have to relationships. And
Speaker 1: if people decide to center their life around friendship, it's
Speaker 1: single people. There's a stigma attached to that. Right. While
Speaker 1: marriage does improve well being, single people who socialized well,
Speaker 1: who are well socialized, who have a larger social networks,
Speaker 1: are actually happier than the average married person. And so
Speaker 1: I'm interested in, i guess, disrupting this hierarchy because I
Speaker 1: think it would allow all of us to be a
Speaker 1: little bit more creative and ask ourselves, what are the
Speaker 1: forms of connection that I do want in my life,
Speaker 1: what makes me feel fulfilled, right, instead of feeling this
Speaker 1: pressure to I'm gonna get married to this person and
Speaker 1: we're gonna become very insular. Right, it's just gonna be
Speaker 1: this nuclear unit. Right, Like, we get these these strong
Speaker 1: cultural messages, and they're so strong that they kind of
Speaker 1: they fundamentally alter how we relate to our friends, where
Speaker 1: I think we see friendship as inferior and it becomes
Speaker 1: a self fulfilling prophecy because as we're less vulnerable, we
Speaker 1: invest less time, we're less affirming, we're not as intentional
Speaker 1: than we would be with a spouse. Inevitably, that relationship
Speaker 1: is going to be inferior. It's not because friendship is
Speaker 1: in fear. It's because you're treating that relationship differently because
Speaker 1: you have this understanding. And so I think, you know,
Speaker 1: in the society where we are so so lonely, we
Speaker 1: just can't afford to throw a morsel of connection away.
Speaker 1: And I think so much, so often we're just throwing
Speaker 1: friendship away. We're not being intentional, we're not putting in
Speaker 1: the effort, we're not making it a priority. And I
Speaker 1: think it would benefit us all, especially from this very
Speaker 1: disconnected state that we're in. If we started to see
Speaker 1: friendship for the value that it could really bring to
Speaker 1: our lives, well, especially because you say that, you know,
Speaker 1: friendship helps us figure out who we are, so which
Speaker 1: is you know, if you're saying that friendship through your
Speaker 1: life is like the building blocks of creating your character,
Speaker 1: then you know you should both have great friendships and
Speaker 1: fail at friendships, to have friendships that don't go well
Speaker 1: or you know, break up or you know, all those
Speaker 1: things in order for you to figure out sort of
Speaker 1: your own character, and ultimately, I would say your adult attachment. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I do argue that, you know, I think there is
Speaker 1: this intimate link between the self and how we form friendships.
Speaker 1: And you know, our friends, as they advertise different ways
Speaker 1: of being in the world to us, show us who
Speaker 1: we could be, right, show us all of the options
Speaker 1: that are available to us for how we could be
Speaker 1: in this world. And I think when we're just around
Speaker 1: one person, we shrink. I mean I felt this in
Speaker 1: the pandemic, being with a partner at the time, that
Speaker 1: I felt like my relationship with myself had shrunk in
Speaker 1: some way. It was like my my identity had sort
Speaker 1: of thinned out, right, Like I had one experience of
Speaker 1: myself because each person calls forth a different experience of yourself.
Speaker 1: Right around this person, I'm like this. I'm around this person,
Speaker 1: I'm like this, And so just being around one person,
Speaker 1: it was it was kind of like straight, straight jacketed
Speaker 1: version of my own identity. And so I think being
Speaker 1: around a community helps us develop a more dimensional, a
Speaker 1: richer sense of our own identities and our own selves.
Speaker 1: And do you think you know, just because of age
Speaker 1: and experience, can you outgrow friendships? I mean, you talk
Speaker 1: about creating new friendships when you're an adult, absolutely, can
Speaker 1: you also let go of friendships? Yeah? So this is
Speaker 1: going to be the reality that even if you are
Speaker 1: comfortable with your friendships now, chances are there will be
Speaker 1: another time in your life when you might have to
Speaker 1: create friendships again. Um, some people move, obviously that can
Speaker 1: be disruptive for friendships. But another study just found that
Speaker 1: every seven years we lose about half our friends. Um,
Speaker 1: so that just sort of means yeah a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that the friends that we have now may not be
Speaker 1: the friends we have seven years from now, or so
Speaker 1: the have yet being the longer that you've kept a friendship,
Speaker 1: the more likely it is to keep going. And so
Speaker 1: the newer friendships, the younger friendships are a lot more
Speaker 1: likely to shed. And I think it is important to
Speaker 1: realize first of all, that that's natural and normal, right,
Speaker 1: because I think a lot of us can feel shame
Speaker 1: around this. You can feel very isolating, like here's this
Speaker 1: person I thought would always be my person and they're
Speaker 1: not anymore. But everybody's going through this, not just you
Speaker 1: and um. But also the other point that I want
Speaker 1: to make is that your friendships will also ebb and flow,
Speaker 1: and so there could be an EBB period and if
Speaker 1: you don't assume in that period that the friendship is over,
Speaker 1: it's going to make it more likely to continue. There
Speaker 1: is a study on long distance friends that found that
Speaker 1: perceiving them as flexible and not fragile, like oh, maybe
Speaker 1: we don't talk for a few months, but I still
Speaker 1: assume that I could reach out at any time, right,
Speaker 1: that that actually promotes the friendship being maintained and continuing.
Speaker 1: So I think that's also important. There are two different issues,
Speaker 1: like we have incompatibility, which is contributing to our separation,
Speaker 1: and but we also have normal EBB and flows of relationships,
Speaker 1: and in those cases when it's not driven by major
Speaker 1: jarring incompatibilities, then we can maintain hope for the friendship
Speaker 1: returning at a later time in life when we both
Speaker 1: have the availability for it. All Right, So let's go
Speaker 1: through the different steps of making a new friend in
Speaker 1: our adulthood. Yeah, So first I would tell you, Ali,
Speaker 1: I hope you know that friendship and adulthood does not
Speaker 1: happen organically, and if you believe that, you're more likely
Speaker 1: to be lonely. So I want you to know that
Speaker 1: you're going to have to try, and you're going to
Speaker 1: have to put in an effort. Here's what might be
Speaker 1: coming up for you. That sounds very scary. I'm worried
Speaker 1: I'll be rejected. Here's what I want to share with you.
Speaker 1: We're less likely to be rejected than we think. When
Speaker 1: strangers interact and they're asked how much do you think
Speaker 1: the other person likes them, their estimations tend to be
Speaker 1: inaccurate and more negative than the truth. So this is
Speaker 1: called the liking gap. Right, we we erroneously think people
Speaker 1: like us less than they actually do. Right. The other
Speaker 1: thing that I'm going to say, to prepare your mindset
Speaker 1: for going out there and interacting is to assume people
Speaker 1: like you. Reason being, this is a self fulfilling prophecy
Speaker 1: called the acceptance prophecy. The acceptance prophecy is the finding
Speaker 1: that when researchers told people they go into a group
Speaker 1: and be accepted or liked based on their personality profile,
Speaker 1: this was a lie, by the way, but they found
Speaker 1: that people became warmer, open, and friendlier, and they actually
Speaker 1: were more likable. So I want you to start assuming
Speaker 1: people like you, right, And now that your mindset is right,
Speaker 1: I think we can go two different avenues. One reconnect
Speaker 1: with people from your past, because the research finds first
Speaker 1: of all, that people appreciate that reconnection text more than
Speaker 1: we assume, but also that when we reconnect with people
Speaker 1: from our past, we have more trust, so the relationship
Speaker 1: moves more quickly. Okay, right, So is there anyone you've
Speaker 1: fallen out of touch with who you would have preferred
Speaker 1: to stay in touch with? Right? Can you reach out
Speaker 1: to them? But the next thing I tell you to
Speaker 1: do is to pursue a hobby in community with other people.
Speaker 1: The reason being that when people are pursuing hobbies and
Speaker 1: community they are, they tend to be more open to friendship. Right.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons that we tend to pursue these
Speaker 1: hobbies and community is to meet people. It's like our
Speaker 1: covert way of saying, I what friends. As I joined
Speaker 1: this kickball league or this arn't class, right, I didn't
Speaker 1: do it alone for a reason. And joining something that's
Speaker 1: repeated over time, which is not not a workshop, but uh,
Speaker 1: you know, a class that's more repeated, you're going to
Speaker 1: capitalize on something called the mere exposure effect, our unconscious
Speaker 1: tendency to like people who are more familiar. So when
Speaker 1: these researchers planted women into a psychology class, students didn't
Speaker 1: remember any of the woman, but they like the woman
Speaker 1: who showed up for the most classes about more than
Speaker 1: the woman that didn't show up for any And so
Speaker 1: what that tells us is that when you first joined
Speaker 1: this group, it's going to be awkward. You're not gonna trust,
Speaker 1: You're gonna feel weary as refect has not set in.
Speaker 1: But as you stay in this group for two to
Speaker 1: three months, those feelings are going to change. They're gonna
Speaker 1: like you more, You're going to like them more. Right.
Speaker 1: I also suggest when you join that group, you're overcoming
Speaker 1: something called overt avoidance, which is our tendency to not
Speaker 1: show up because we're scared. But you also have to
Speaker 1: overcome covert avoidance, which is our tendency to show up
Speaker 1: physically but check out mentally. So I want to make
Speaker 1: sure that when you get to that group, you're not
Speaker 1: just on your phone, that you are actually introducing yourself
Speaker 1: and saying, Hey, I'm Marissa, it's great to meet you.
Speaker 1: How have you liked this hiking group so far? Remember,
Speaker 1: you're assuming people like you here, and then lastly, generating
Speaker 1: exclusivity with someone in the group, finding someone in the
Speaker 1: group who you like, asking them to hang out outside
Speaker 1: of the group so you have particular memories and experiences
Speaker 1: with that person that you don't share with the rest
Speaker 1: of the group. That is what builds friendship. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: like to. I mean, I actually have made a lot
Speaker 1: of new friends in my adulthood. Um. And I've found
Speaker 1: also that the older I get, I'm much bolder about
Speaker 1: pursuing friendships than I was when I was young. You know.
Speaker 1: Now I'm just like I got nothing to lose, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like what And I also find
Speaker 1: that what you said before earlier, they people are more receptive.
Speaker 1: Like you think you're going to reach out and they're
Speaker 1: gonna be like, what is this fucking stalker doing, you know,
Speaker 1: but yet they're like, I would love to go for
Speaker 1: a walk, you know. I love to like I'm always
Speaker 1: surprised when I'm received that way, you know, because you're
Speaker 1: you're always, you know, kind of your fourth grade self,
Speaker 1: no matter how old you are, when you're sort of
Speaker 1: reaching out and making a friend and it's time for
Speaker 1: a short break. Welcome back to go ask Alli. You
Speaker 1: talk about intentional generosity, which is something that I've tried
Speaker 1: to always feed and water in myself. Um, and one
Speaker 1: kind of friend I like to be is a creative friend.
Speaker 1: So I make my own sort of holiday cards. I
Speaker 1: love to bake people's birthday cakes. I love. I have
Speaker 1: found that it has given me immense pleasure to be
Speaker 1: an intentional, intentionally generous friend. I guess you would phrase
Speaker 1: it that is really lovely. And um, I think what
Speaker 1: we're really getting at here is something called the theory
Speaker 1: of inferred attraction, which is the idea that people like
Speaker 1: people that they think like them. So anything that you
Speaker 1: do that shows people I care about you, You matter
Speaker 1: to me, You're important. Those are going to generate friendship.
Speaker 1: And I think for me when I was younger, I
Speaker 1: have this misconception that to make friends I have to
Speaker 1: be entertaining. I have to be insightful, I have to
Speaker 1: say something funny all the time, right, And in fact,
Speaker 1: people report this entertaining piece being the least important value
Speaker 1: they look for in friendship. You, I'm screwed. Well, you
Speaker 1: do do the most important thing, which is making people
Speaker 1: feel like they matter, especial people want. It's called ego support.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think humor can be a way
Speaker 1: into that right of making people feel like they matter.
Speaker 1: And so the more I think when we feel really
Speaker 1: insecure about belonging, we get into this place that's a
Speaker 1: little bit self centered because we're in pain. I think
Speaker 1: pain is inherently self centered. We don't have the resources
Speaker 1: to think of other other people. Where we think have
Speaker 1: they reached out to me? Have they welcomed me? Have
Speaker 1: they initiated with me? Whereas people who are really good
Speaker 1: at friendship, they think a lot more about what they
Speaker 1: have they done for others? Have I made them feel welcome?
Speaker 1: Have I initiated with them? Have I made them feel
Speaker 1: cared for? Right? And they don't expect that people are
Speaker 1: going to invest in them if they see themselves aren't
Speaker 1: haven't been accountable for that same level investment. So I
Speaker 1: think sometimes we need to gently, kindly empathically check ourselves. Right,
Speaker 1: if our friendships aren't working out? What have I done
Speaker 1: to make other people feel loved and valued? Right? Rather
Speaker 1: than what have people done for me to make me
Speaker 1: feel loved and value? Because it starts with I'm making
Speaker 1: them feel loved and then it tends to be a
Speaker 1: sort of more reciprocal cycle. How do you feel about
Speaker 1: the term best friend? Like, when you're young, it it's territorial,
Speaker 1: and but when you get older, I've noticed that women
Speaker 1: my age have a very strong reaction to the term
Speaker 1: best friend. You know, I think we need quality, deep
Speaker 1: intimate connections. Whether that has to include the label best
Speaker 1: friend or not. I don't think it's completely necessary, but
Speaker 1: I will say the value of it is that friendship
Speaker 1: is so freaking ambiguous. We don't know what we can
Speaker 1: expect from our friends. We don't know how invested they
Speaker 1: are with us. There's no formal ceremony right, set of
Speaker 1: expectations that come with being a friend, and friend can
Speaker 1: be anywhere from someone who's nearly an acquaintance that you
Speaker 1: met for coffee once. I mean, Facebook further diluted our
Speaker 1: perception of what it means to be a friend. And
Speaker 1: so we're all working from such different definitions, which means
Speaker 1: we all have different expectations from each other that come
Speaker 1: out of these different definite and those different expectations is
Speaker 1: what part of what can create problems in friendship. Right,
Speaker 1: So what I like about best Friend is that it
Speaker 1: clarifies some of those expectations. It says, Okay, we are
Speaker 1: going to make each other a priority. Maybe we are
Speaker 1: gonna gauge in mutual support seeking. When I have a need,
Speaker 1: I know I can feel comfortable reaching out to you.
Speaker 1: That allows us to kind of calibrate our expectations of
Speaker 1: each other a little bit. Yeah, I think that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I also think um. I did this interpersonal exercise and
Speaker 1: what was kind of interesting about it was to see
Speaker 1: how much time we give the toxic people as compared
Speaker 1: to a lot of the people that are so close
Speaker 1: to us. Wow, there's as much air time for these
Speaker 1: people that make me feel bad as this circle around me,
Speaker 1: and it it actually seeing it visually made me kind
Speaker 1: of readjust you know, my my own landscape of friendship
Speaker 1: in general. Yeah, I think two things in relation to that.
Speaker 1: I don't know which is often kind of passive in friendships,
Speaker 1: not necessarily discerning. Um. You know, this is what I've
Speaker 1: realized to having a large network of friends, I begin
Speaker 1: to ask myself, who do I want to invest in
Speaker 1: more deeply? Right, it can't be that whoever reaches out
Speaker 1: to me I'm going to go along with, because then
Speaker 1: I'm not able to cultivate and curate my friendships in
Speaker 1: the ways that I want. Right, And so that I
Speaker 1: think is very often occurrence that we hang out with
Speaker 1: people who it's easiest to rather than who we want
Speaker 1: to go deeper with. Um. And so that requires some discernment.
Speaker 1: But I also say for anxiously attached people, there are
Speaker 1: many different stress mechanisms that we might use fight flight, freeze,
Speaker 1: but also fawn. Fawn is if someone is threatening to me,
Speaker 1: I try to get them to like me, and anxiously
Speaker 1: attached people tend to experience this more so. They actually
Speaker 1: are attracted to people that are less engaged with them,
Speaker 1: that like them less because oh this triggers my fond response.
Speaker 1: So now I'm going to engage more and try to
Speaker 1: hang out with them more and try to get them
Speaker 1: to like me right. And that's part of the template
Speaker 1: of the anxiously attached that I am going to have
Speaker 1: to earn love right. Anxiously attached people can sometimes feel
Speaker 1: like someone just likes me. What do they know? What
Speaker 1: do they know? This is weird? You know, it's suspicious
Speaker 1: almost right, Whereas securely attached people, if someone makes them
Speaker 1: feel bad, they walk away instead of working harder. So
Speaker 1: our attachment style could play into that as well. I mean,
Speaker 1: I wonder if sometimes it's very simplistic, But one thing
Speaker 1: I say to my daughters when it comes to friendship
Speaker 1: is find the people that make you feel good. M exactly. Yes.
Speaker 1: I also think that when I'm I want to not
Speaker 1: go to assisted living. I actually want to get a
Speaker 1: house and live with my girlfriends because I think I'll
Speaker 1: be happier. I truly believe this. I'll be happier and
Speaker 1: I'll live longer if I already create a community um
Speaker 1: of people that make me feel good. Now, I love that,
Speaker 1: and I just love thinking more creatively about the potential
Speaker 1: of friendship. There's been more talk about people who physically
Speaker 1: in gen z choosing friends as life partners, right, and um,
Speaker 1: just being a lot more creative around what we think
Speaker 1: friendship can do. Because, aside from sex, most of the
Speaker 1: things that you might look for from a spouse you
Speaker 1: can also look for from a friend. There's really no
Speaker 1: reason not to, aside from like a lack of creativity. Right,
Speaker 1: So what sort of life do you want to live?
Speaker 1: What sort of connections do you want to have? What
Speaker 1: feels good for you rather than what is the script
Speaker 1: for how we are supposed to live? Right, I think
Speaker 1: that is just going to fundamentally allow for our needs
Speaker 1: to be met and for us to feel so much better.
Speaker 1: And so I think that just requires us to see
Speaker 1: friendship so much more expansively and and richly than how
Speaker 1: we have historically seen it. Yes, and I inspiration is
Speaker 1: one of my criteria for friendship. And so I guess
Speaker 1: we're going to be friends, Merissa, because you really inspired
Speaker 1: me on this podcast. Thank you so, Marissa. In the
Speaker 1: spirit of friendship, it is now your turn to ask
Speaker 1: me a question about anything. I love this to the
Speaker 1: tables him turn. Yeah, you know, also a psychologists I'm
Speaker 1: always wanted to ask questions. You could listen, you can
Speaker 1: go deep if you want. I'm ready, thank you. I
Speaker 1: am wondering what's something that you learned about friendship that
Speaker 1: you didn't understand ten years ago. I ten years ago,
Speaker 1: I didn't understand my worth in a friendship, meaning I
Speaker 1: I always felt so lucky that this person was my friend,
Speaker 1: and I didn't look at it like, well, they're lucky
Speaker 1: that I'm their friend, you know what I mean. I
Speaker 1: didn't see it as an equal relationship. Um, And I
Speaker 1: think it caused me a lot of pain, and I
Speaker 1: think it caused me to make bad decisions about who
Speaker 1: I spent my time with and who I did all
Speaker 1: those creative things for. Because I find in friendship when
Speaker 1: you are one of my quote unquote people, I am
Speaker 1: an endless well of love. I love to do things
Speaker 1: for my friends. It makes me so happy the way
Speaker 1: it does, you know, when I do things for my
Speaker 1: daughters and so they because some of them became so
Speaker 1: one sided that I had to move away from them,
Speaker 1: And it was usually somebody else saying like, why are
Speaker 1: you friends with that person? They don't treat you well,
Speaker 1: they don't, they don't call you on your birthday, you know,
Speaker 1: And so I started to realize, oh wait a second,
Speaker 1: where am I in all this? Whereas now I'm very
Speaker 1: good at that. And I also reach out to new
Speaker 1: friendships the way we talked about with somebody that I
Speaker 1: can already tell through just through experience and living life. Oh,
Speaker 1: this is a person I can tell who will be
Speaker 1: reciprocal and open and vulnerable with me. I love that, Ali,
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of you. I don't know if I
Speaker 1: can ask questions, but you can. I mean, as he'll
Speaker 1: turn into a therapy at this session and he'll be like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, Okay, what a quick question. Yes psychologists, Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: like having sense of self worth so important for our
Speaker 1: friendships because we have to take risks in friendship, like
Speaker 1: reaching out to someone. Right. If we don't feel worthy,
Speaker 1: we're not going to want to take those risks because
Speaker 1: we think people don't want to hear from us. Right.
Speaker 1: My follow up question is how did you develop that
Speaker 1: sense of worth in yourself? How did I develop the
Speaker 1: sense of worth? I think it was a few things.
Speaker 1: I think it was almost like sexual relationships in the past,
Speaker 1: you know, of being heard a bunch of times of
Speaker 1: trying different types of people. I think the same can
Speaker 1: be said about friendship. There are certain types of people
Speaker 1: that I just could innately like just feel on a
Speaker 1: visceral level. Oh, I know what type of person that is,
Speaker 1: and I sort of get a sense of how they
Speaker 1: are as a friend. I also think that there are
Speaker 1: certain things that I am attracted to and friends. There's
Speaker 1: a bunch of things that I learned, and I think
Speaker 1: I learned it by befriending all different types of people.
Speaker 1: And I feel like now in my fifties, I had
Speaker 1: the greatest group of female friends, more so than I
Speaker 1: did when I was forty year thirty like, and a
Speaker 1: few of them are are from many many years that
Speaker 1: we just sort of live life together, I guess, as
Speaker 1: the kids call it, ride or die, and I still
Speaker 1: seek new friends out. Yeah, I really like your answer, because, um,
Speaker 1: we develop our sense of self not in isolation from people,
Speaker 1: but when we experience loving people. That are if we
Speaker 1: begin to feel more worthy. Right. Oh, absolutely, absolutely, Okay
Speaker 1: asked that with the foul up questions. Though I could
Speaker 1: ask more, I know you could, I'd be I'd be
Speaker 1: in therapy for the next four days. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: This was so Your book is so great and insightful,
Speaker 1: and I did get two copies for my daughters, and
Speaker 1: I think everyone should read it because I think we
Speaker 1: tend to focus more on the sexual relationships more than
Speaker 1: our romantic friendships. And they exactly and they are like
Speaker 1: oxygen and food and water. We need them. So thank
Speaker 1: you so much, thank you so much, thank you for
Speaker 1: listening to go ask Ali now Dr Marissa Franco's book Platonic,
Speaker 1: How the Science of Attachment can help you make and
Speaker 1: keep friends. I gave you but a sliver of the
Speaker 1: book that it is so full of interesting insights and information.
Speaker 1: So do yourself a favor and get the book. Because
Speaker 1: my producer Brook would not let me do a four
Speaker 1: hour podcast, but I could have now. If you would
Speaker 1: like to follow Dr Marissa, she is on Instagram at
Speaker 1: Dr Marissa g Franco and her website Dr Marissa g
Speaker 1: Franco dot com, and you can take a quiz to
Speaker 1: assess your strengths and weaknesses as a friend. If you'd
Speaker 1: like more info on what you heard in this episode,
Speaker 1: check out our show notes and be sure to subscribe,
Speaker 1: rate and review the podcast, and follow me on Instagram
Speaker 1: at the Real Ali wentworth Now. If you'd like to
Speaker 1: ask me a question or suggest a guest or a
Speaker 1: topic to dig into, I'd love to hear from you,
Speaker 1: and there's a bunch of ways you can do it.
Speaker 1: You can call or text me up three to three
Speaker 1: three six four six three six, or you can email
Speaker 1: a voice memo right from your phone to Go Ask
Speaker 1: Glli podcast at gmail dot com. And if you leave
Speaker 1: a question, you just might hear it. I'm go Ask Alli. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Go Ask Gali is a production of Shonda land Audio
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