WEBVTT - State of Ohio vs. George Wagner IV 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:04.960 This just in today. Attorneys for George Wagner, the fourth 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.159 sake there is proof he did not kill any of 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.920 the eight victims and therefore could avoid the death penalty. 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:16.400 Judge Randy Deering heard an impassioned plea from George Wagner's attorney, 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.960 who said his client never pulled a trigger on the 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:22.720 night eight members of the Rodent family were killed execution style. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.479 The state made a deal with the devil. Basically, so far, 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:31.040 Edward Jake Wagner and his mother, Angela Wagner have confessed 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.400 to prosecutors and have agreed to testify against the rest 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.720 of the family. George and Billy Wagner are still going 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.640 through the court process. The trial has been sent for 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:45.959 April of next year. This is George Wagner's defense attorney 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.480 talking about Jake Wagner. He's the person that is most 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.519 responsible for this. He's the actual killer. He's the actual shooter. 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:54.320 He's the one that snuck into these homes in the 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:56.280 middle of the night and shot the victims in the head. 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:01.920 All right, Our client didn't shoot anybody made the double 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:07.920 in this case. Four of the individuals are charged in 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:17.400 This is the piked in massacre returned to Pike County 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:23.320 Season three, Episode four, State of Ohio Versus George Wagner 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:29.279 The Fourth. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:33.679 Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane, with both Jake 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:37.160 and Angela taking plea deals. The possible outcome of George 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:41.800 Wagner's trial seems on the surface limited in scope. It 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.720 is anything but that the defense is trying to position 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.240 themselves to win the case by limiting what evidence will 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:53.400 be admissible through a series of motions. Each motion involves 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:55.640 a request to the court by the defense to make 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.160 a decision on a specific issue before the trial begins. 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:06.400 Here's retired prosecutor and Flanagan. If you look at any trial, 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:09.600 it is the state that has to put out everything. 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:12.600 It's like throwing a party and you're the host or 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:15.720 hostess and you have to have everything ready. Well, you 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:17.920 might have a guest on the other side who's going 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:19.560 to come and say, well, you didn't get yes, you 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.200 didn't do this, you didn't do that. So all they 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.120 have to do is whittle away at the state's witnesses 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:30.560 and evidence. It's up to the judge to make a 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.040 decision on each of these changes. In this episode, we're 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:37.440 taking a deep dive into George Wagner's pre trial and 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.639 how these motions could radically change the outcome of the trial. 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:45.280 Two motions eighty and eighty one have been introduced specifically 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:48.720 to keep evidence off the table for a capital murder 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.640 case like George's. It could mean the difference between life 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:55.880 and death, and as we'll find out, even with their 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.680 plea deals in place, it could affect whether Jake and 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:03.080 Angela reopen them selves to the death penalty. The first 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:07.440 motion will discuss is eighty one. Here's journalist Angeanette Levy, 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.079 followed by criminal attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen. They're 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:15.320 both speaking with producer Chris Graves. On January tenth of 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:18.760 twenty twenty two, the defense for George Wagner filed motion 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.880 number eighty one, and it was a motion to suppress 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.640 audio recordings. And the thing they're taking issue with in 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.000 this motion is the fact that apparently BCI agents and 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:33.600 other law enforcement involved in this case placed listening devices 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.960 in a truck that was driven by both George Wagner 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:42.000 and Jake Wagner before the Wagners were arrested in twenty eighteen. 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:46.000 Hundreds of hours of audio were recorded by Ohio BCI. 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.160 I'm looking at this and I'm thinking to myself, what 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:54.000 on earth could be so damning in these recordings. There 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.760 may be nothing, or there may be something. I don't know. 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.880 This is all speculation at this point, but there might 0:03:59.920 --> 0:04:03.880 be something that George incriminated himself on that they're trying 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.160 to suppress. Right, there would have to be, or they 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:09.840 wouldn't go to the problem to file the motion, no 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.480 question about it. Defense counsel wants something with respect to 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:16.960 those statements thrown out. We just don't know what it is. 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.599 So in your mind, George or someone in his cab 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:28.520 or on some conversation possibly incriminated the family. Absolutely, absolutely, 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.159 they wouldn't be going through all this if that weren't 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:36.800 the case. To obtain the recordings, homicide detectives had to 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:41.480 gain physical access to George's truck. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:45.160 I think there's a really big piece to the puzzle 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.560 here about wire tapping and bugging, and there seems to 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.120 be some sort of a difference between the two that 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:55.640 is now really a big piece of George's defense. Wire 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:59.200 tapping and bugging, I think often get confused, and you 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.520 see wire and bugging a lot in movies and TV shows, 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:06.160 but it's actually a little more nuanced than what you 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.760 see on the screen. So how wire tapping works specifically 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:12.080 is that you need to get permission from a phone 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:16.360 company to tap into the cell transmission tower. And back 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:18.000 in the old days, what you would see done in 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.239 the movies is cops literally clipping wires to the phone 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.640 line in the basement or something like that. But now 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.720 it's all done remotely electronically, so in conjunction with the 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.560 warrant served to the cell phone provider, officials are able 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.760 to do it from the comfort of their office. Bugging 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:37.080 literally is this transmitter with a microphone that needs to 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:41.320 be planted someplace physically in a space where authorities would 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.040 want to pick up conversations, which is, by the way, 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.440 very interesting because they have to go through a very 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.560 layered process to be able to get permission to bug 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:57.960 a vehicle. Bugging is much more invasive because you're actually 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:02.120 able to record private versations in someone's home or their car, 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:04.560 and in this case, they were able to get all 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:08.080 types of conversations that George Wagner was having, so law 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.920 enforcement was apparently able to listen to and remotely record 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:17.200 everything that was said in that truck twenty four to seven. 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:23.200 I mean in person conversations, phone conversations, and even mister 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:30.279 Wagner talking to himself. The defense is claiming that the 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:34.719 recordings are inadmissible for a number of reasons, many pertaining 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:37.320 to the fact that it was George's truck that was bugged. 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.279 The case of the bugging is slightly complicated as it 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:45.080 applies to the Wagner's because what the BCI bugged was 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.559 not George's vehicle. It was the truck that he used 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.040 for work, so he didn't own this big rigged truck. 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:56.680 It was his employer's truck, and so presumably the BCI 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.479 was given permission to access the vehicle from the employer 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.520 and planted the bug when George was not with the truck. 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:07.039 The type of truck George would drive is a typical 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.080 semi that you see all over the country on the highways, 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.800 and so the semi has a sleeper cab in the back, 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.240 which is where the drivers go to take a rest, 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:19.320 relax sleep for the night. So Ohio BCI agents put 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.120 the bug in the sleeper cab portion of the semi truck, 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.000 and this small detail is one of the four things 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.680 the defense is using to get the motion dismissed. There 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.000 could be an issue with that because that sleeper cabin 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:36.119 on the semi could be analogized to being someone's home, 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.320 and you know, for all intention purposes, it probably was 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:44.840 when mister Wagner was on the road, and the house 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.920 is the most constitutionally protected thing that there is, so 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:53.800 there might be a potential problem there with the authorization itself. 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:57.920 Because the truck was both not owned by George and 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.440 served as a sleeping quarters, the defense may argue it 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.640 is similar to bugging a hotel room. We also know 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.480 that Jake was in the truck as well. At some 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:10.760 point the two brothers were alone for hours or even 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:13.440 days on the road and what they assumed was a 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:17.280 completely private setting. That really does speak to the question 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:22.520 of assumed privacy and conversations that may have happened between 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.800 Jake and George. Allegedly, those conversations are probably very relevant 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.400 for this trial. So the fact that the defense wants 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:33.080 to question that speaks more to what they're potentially hiding. 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:38.320 Here's Judge Pat dink a locker. This is interesting because 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:42.400 we don't get bugging cases wire tapping cases much. When 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.120 I looked through this, I thought to myself, if they 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:48.479 had an expectation of privacy, the two of them, okay 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:53.200 in the state illegally vied it that, then this is 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.520 the proper motion that the judge could grant, say that 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.400 they're not allowed to bring those audio recordings into evidence. 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.040 Here's Judge Sylvia Hendon, who works as a visiting judge 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.960 out of the Ohio Supreme Court. It's a violation sixth Amendment. 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.800 We see that all the time. You have an expectation 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:18.560 of privacy. Does your expectation of privacy increase if you're 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.120 in a sleeper cab truck versus a regular cab truck. 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.600 I don't know the answer to that. But again, speaking 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.199 from an appellate perspective, I can tell you that whichever 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.480 way Judge during goes on this, it's going to be 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:36.320 an issue. I believe in an event of an appeal, 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.640 I would have to believe that that motion to suppress 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.240 is going to loom large in the Court of Appeals. 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:45.640 In the event of a guilty finding, I will be 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:50.600 very interested to see his ruling. If I'm employed by somebody, 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.040 even if I'm sleeping there, I wouldn't think that I 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.880 walk into a building or an entity owned by somebody 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.440 else that's employing me. I wouldn't think that I would 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:04.160 have an expect of privacy. Here's former BCI homicide investigator 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:08.240 Seth Hageman testifying in court he oversaw the creation of 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:13.920 the warrants for the Wagner case. So when you're installing devices, 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:17.440 you need a search warrant in the county where you're 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.760 going to install the device Correctly and specifically, you're talking 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:25.240 about the search warrant that was installed in the RNL truck, 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:29.000 correct that both the defendant, George Wagner and his brother 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:34.439 Jake Wagner drove in tandem. Correct. To get approval to 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.600 bug or wire tap, investigators must adhere to an even 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:41.520 stricter protocol than a standard search warrant. They must also 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:46.880 produce what's called an interception warrant. Interception warrants are inherently 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:51.040 scrutinized to a greater degree because of the privacy issues 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.680 that they raise, and there's very specific statutory requirements of 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.160 other things. In addition to just the normal problem cause 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:59.800 of the search warrant that needs to be addressed among 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:01.680 the is not only do I have to show there's 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.000 probable cause that a crime was committed, you have to 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.480 show that there is probable cause that a specific person 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.640 or person's committed that crime. You actually have to show 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.720 that you've exhausted other methods of investigation that were less 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.560 intrusive prior to applying for that, and so those are 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.200 the different steps that make it more complicated in a 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:23.720 much more difficult process to obtain. Hageman and ohio Bci 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.680 felt that after months of the investigation, they had grounds 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:31.240 to successfully lobby for an interception warrant. During the investigation, 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:34.920 Inspector Hageman put together a lengthy report and submitted it 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.400 for approval of an interception warrant to bug the Wagner's truck. 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.160 The warrant was approved, giving homicide a period of thirty 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:44.960 days to monitor the truck once the bug was installed. 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:48.679 The state played it one hundred percent by the book, 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.240 but the prosecution's case is complicated by the fact that 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.199 ohio Bci coordinated the bugging of George's truck with his employer, 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.280 and the defense has raised this as a second point 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:04.920 of contention in their motion. Here again reporter Angrenette Levy, 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:09.040 followed by attorney and legal analyst Mike Ellen. The defense 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:13.920 is saying this basically violated George's rights because the owner 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.520 of the truck allowed it to happen and he had 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:19.760 an expectation of privacy. But I'm not really sure you 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:24.400 have an expectation of privacy in a truck that your 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:29.440 employer owns. Apparently the owner consented to the bug, but 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.600 it's a case of where the owner is actually acting 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:37.800 as the government's agent and authorizing that, and there could 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:44.160 be problems with that. It probably would be upheld. You know. 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.920 It all depends on what the cops probable cause for 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.000 the search warrant to do that would be, And I 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.680 think that's one of the sticking points on this one. 0:12:56.040 --> 0:13:00.319 There is a third complicating issue for the prosecution. Much 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:04.679 of the audio was recorded across state lines. Would any 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.760 statement that is given outside of the state of Ohio 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:13.200 be valid under that warrant. I don't have the warrant, 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:15.800 so I don't know for sure, but I think that's 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:19.280 going to be questioned as well. Usually warrants are just 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:23.560 limited to the geographical jurisdiction, and in this case, it'd 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.000 be Pike County and or the state of Ohio. But 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:30.080 let's just say he said something incriminating in Tennessee. I 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.600 don't know. I mean, there may be problems with that too. 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.520 If it was a federal warrant, then they'd be okay, 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.920 But a state warrant, they might have some issues with that. 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:46.360 I've not researched it. I've never encountered it ever as 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:50.480 an attorney, law student, whatever, But it's an issue that 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:56.520 if I were defense counsel, I'd be pursuing it. The 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.680 defense also claims that the investigators on the case tried 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.800 to eat the Wagner brothers into incriminating themselves. They talk 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.880 about in the motion that they were trying to stimulate 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:12.120 incriminating conversation by initiating the contact, and that could be 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:16.319 problematic for the government too. I mean, if a statement 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:21.360 is freely and voluntarily given, then there's no problem with it. 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:25.440 But if the government induces someone to make a statement, 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:30.040 that could be problematic. What I also thought was very 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.120 interesting about this was the fact that police would actually 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:37.040 put things out on social media in hopes that one 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:41.480 of the Wagners, or specifically Angela Wagner accused killer Mom 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:45.400 that she would see these posts and that would maybe 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.760 stir up conversation that they would then have with each other, 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.680 and then those conversations would be bugged. This is actually 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.720 called tickling the wire, and tickling the wire means that 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.320 the Feds have wire taps in place and are placing 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:03.320 stories and then waiting for revealing conversations to happen because 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:09.280 of said stories. And that's the question, specifically, is that 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:14.920 baiting or is that just good process. Angela Wagner's mother, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.800 Rita Joe Newcombe, was sent a court order to have 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.520 these conversations where she would go with the boys into 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.040 having further conversations with her mother and father about the crimes. 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.800 Remember when she got arrested, her mother also got arrested. 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.520 That's Rita Newcome. So here is Rita trying to get 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.600 herself also out of this mess that she was dragged 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.400 into because she was accused of all this forgery with 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:42.120 the original custody documents. Now she's basically working with BCI 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:45.960 to start conversations with the Wagner boys to hopefully get 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:52.920 them to say something incriminating and that just shows the 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:57.480 dissension between mother daughter, that's her grandsons and that's her 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.800 daughter and her son in law. Rida Nucombe was charged 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:06.120 with forgery, perjury, and obstructing justice. In twenty nineteen, Nwcombe 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.680 reached a plea deal and those charges were dropped. She 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.760 ultimately pleaded guilty to a reduced misdemeanor charge of obstructing 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:17.640 official business. It must have been probably a hard celt 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:19.520 to swallow. We know she didn't have much choice because 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.840 it was a court order, but at this point we 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:24.640 do know a little bit of her frame of mind. 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.320 According to her son, Chris Newcomb, that she felt really 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.640 betrayed by Angela. She has her son and other grandchildren 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:32.400 to look out for and so if Angela and her 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:34.600 sect of the family are not going to look out 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.080 for her, why is she going to look out for them? 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.000 I mean, that must have been the most brutal decision 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.080 to have to make. Do you actually turn against your 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.360 own daughter and your grandsons and your son in law. 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:50.960 And by the way, it must have worked and got 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:54.040 them talking, because the defense is adamant that they do 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:57.080 not want these conversations to be a part of any 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:00.360 of this moving forward. So you could imagine those conversations 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:05.720 must be very telling. During testimony, Seth Hagman confirmed the 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:10.840 success of this approach in the past. How many other 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.679 interception warrants would you say that you've been a part of. 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.879 We already has been related to a cool case homicide 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.680 four or five. And in those situations, did you use 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.280 this same method as far as tickling the wire or 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:28.080 provoket of acts or whatever your terminology is for that. Yes, 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:30.680 in every single one, even the ones that had some 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.720 level of correct crime happening, we would use some level 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.600 of tickling the wire just to try to get conversation 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:40.480 about those past events. Okay, And have you been met 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.439 with success in those efforts? There were success in all 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.280 of them. In most cases we've developed information that's led 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:49.760 to either ongoing prosecutions or guilty pleas or verdicts. And 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.200 in another case I've actually exonerated someone using that method. 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.840 Here again, as attorney my Gallen, it's just a real 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:05.199 fine line as far as inducement. The government has some flexibility, 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.960 but still, I mean, they can't elicitly for an illicit 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:13.359 purpose to goad them into making a comment. Every case 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:17.199 rises and falls on its own set of facts. And 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.440 I know that's not really a helpful answer, but it's 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:27.480 an accurate answer. Besides investigators and the Wagners themselves, no 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.159 one but the prosecution and defense know what is on 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.720 those tapes. If the guy makes some incriminating statements and 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.640 they are validly taken, that's a problem. I mean, it's 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.440 a problem for the defense because they are stuck with them. 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.920 If you were in the prosecution's seat and you saw 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:49.640 this come down, what are you thinking? Well as the prosecution, 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:51.800 I mean, I would fight as hard as I could, 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:55.159 obviously to make sure the judge keeps it in. But again, 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.080 I'm just assuming that they've got a lot of other 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:02.000 evidence as well. But the defense attorney's doing his job here. 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:06.360 I mean, he wants to whittle away at Stage's evidence 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.800 as much as he can. And you know, this is 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:10.920 all a part of it. She's so hard to say 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.800 how much it would damage the stage case when we 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:19.600 don't know what other cards they're holding. We're going to 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:29.600 take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Another motion, 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.800 Motion eighty has been put forth by the defense to 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:37.280 block Jake and Angelis testimony. It's another possible game changer 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:40.880 as part of his plea deal, Jake makes many claims 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:44.360 that seemingly exonerate George of the worst aspects of this 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:51.760 grizzly massacre. Here again Chris Graves speaking with retired prosecutor 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:55.520 and Flanagan. This is from Jake's profferty. Jake has stated 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.480 clearly that George did not shoot new One, did not 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.200 fire a shot, was not supposed to go with Jake 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.080 and Billy on the murder spree, and only when it's 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.040 a last second to protect Jake from Billy, who was 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.679 thought he might kill Jake at the end of the 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:14.919 series of accurgated murders, presumably to get rid of a witness. 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:20.359 Do you never really emotions to suppress the testimony of 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:24.159 someone else, So he has still the capability of trying 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.639 to show some kind of dishonesty on Jake's part, or 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.560 that he's not testifying truthfully. But what they're a thing 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.480 the court to do is to take this away to 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:36.679 suppress their statements before the jury ever gets to hear it. 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:43.880 Grounds to suppress are usually based on misconduct of officers. 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:47.120 Was their coercive activity on the part of officers and 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:51.280 they weren't coerce clearly Angela and Jake. For one thing, 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.720 the defense attorneys here don't represent the Angela or Jake, 0:20:54.800 --> 0:21:00.000 so they don't have standing to suppress their statements. Because 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:04.480 they're representing George, they can move to suppress his statements, 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.600 but not Jake's and Angela. So this is somewhat novel. 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:10.719 They're trying to suppress it, not because of any course 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:14.639 of activity, but because he might be motivated to lie 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.480 under oath because he wants to get his agreement enforced. 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:24.000 So our proffers done under oath they can be. They 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.960 don't have to be. I don't know how they did 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.600 it here. I know I have done that on occasion 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:31.720 when I have a co defendant or someone that's going 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.600 to cooperate, I have tried to get it under oath. 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:39.439 In case they don't testify in accordance with it, I 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.919 can bring that up and cross examine them. Look, you 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:46.920 gave a sworn statement before you under oath. You said 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:49.400 it was the truth, and you're now you're saying this, 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:53.200 So I'm assuming they may have done that, but it's 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:58.200 not required. It's possible Jake could have lied to get 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.280 out of the death penalty or said what he had 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:06.000 to say to save his brother. You're obviously putting some trust, 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:09.280 in some faith in his statement. You're putting somebody up 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:11.719 there to testify to this when you may not be 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:17.040 exactly sure that he's telling the whole truth. And that 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:20.560 happens sometimes in cases where somebody they're telling you the truth, 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:22.679 but maybe not the whole truth. Like you're not getting 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:26.080 the whole story, the entire story, but you're basically getting 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:29.800 what happened, but not every little detail. Because maybe Jake 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:32.199 was trying to protect his brother at some point too. 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:34.520 You know, maybe he's thinking, God, I can't take my 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:41.280 brother down with me. I'm not sure why father would 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.320 kill his son or why another son would be fearful 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:53.600 of That affects even the motivation. Potentially is Billy the mastermind? Yeah, mastermind? 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:57.399 And also to his motive if he's trying to eliminate witnesses. 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:02.280 And certainly she think this is not the most functional family. 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:06.840 The presumption has been that it was Angela who kind 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:09.840 of masterminded everything. And I'm not saying she's not deserving. 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.400 I don't know here, but we're hard on matriarchs sometimes 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:20.120 or mothers, And did we do that legitimately It does 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:22.439 really kind of make you think who was calling your 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:25.959 shops in this operation? If that's indeed true, that George 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:28.680 only went along at the last minute to protect his 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:31.760 brother from their father, what was going on there? What 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:36.800 is Billy capable of? I mean, I guess George in 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:40.680 this scenario was ready to die for his brother protecting him. 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:44.280 That would be one hell of a car ride, wouldn't it. Yeah, 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:47.720 I don't know much about Billy. Nobody's spoken about Billy 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:51.280 very much. Is that the kind of defense they're fashioning, 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:54.920 That he's here to protect Jake from big Dad Billy 0:23:55.080 --> 0:23:57.879 and that they're both afraid of him? And how is 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:00.960 he going to protect him from bad Billy unless he 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.600 hits a firearm? Maybe? Do you know what kind of 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:06.639 dad he was? I was here with Jake and George. 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:10.879 He's an asshole. Chris knwcom, who we've heard from before, 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:14.840 is Angela Agner's half brother. Now, Karen Billy get into 0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:18.200 some screaming matches. Billy's about a useless sustance on a borehole. 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:21.119 That's the guy who run the truth up. How do 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:23.200 you mean? I mean that man is one hundred percent 0:24:23.359 --> 0:24:27.920 just lazy and hale useless, always conniving on something, trying 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:30.160 to think how to do something, to make a quick book. 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:32.680 I think the most horseless human being I think I've 0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:36.879 ever met in my life. Despite Billy's nature, angelisted by 0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:40.919 his side. Some see a parallel with Angela's dad, Eddie 0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:45.240 pug Carter. I knew him, his hug Carter. He always 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:47.399 wore this slight metal brace and he walked with a limp. 0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:49.280 What I heard from my dad was that he would 0:24:49.359 --> 0:24:52.600 five electric holes and still copper or something off the holes, 0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:56.560 and he's got electric huted and it affected his walking. 0:24:57.640 --> 0:24:59.960 It could be that Angela was fiercely loyal to Bill 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:03.359 because he reminded her of her father. At the end 0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:06.080 of the day, the prosecution in this particular case is 0:25:06.080 --> 0:25:10.800 focused on one job, putting George Wagner behind bars, or 0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:14.480 possibly even sending him to death row. It will be 0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:17.000