1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: This just in today. Attorneys for George Wagner, the fourth 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,159 Speaker 1: sake there is proof he did not kill any of 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: the eight victims and therefore could avoid the death penalty. 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: Judge Randy Deering heard an impassioned plea from George Wagner's attorney, 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: who said his client never pulled a trigger on the 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: night eight members of the Rodent family were killed execution style. 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: The state made a deal with the devil. Basically, so far, 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: Edward Jake Wagner and his mother, Angela Wagner have confessed 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: to prosecutors and have agreed to testify against the rest 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: of the family. George and Billy Wagner are still going 11 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: through the court process. The trial has been sent for 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 1: April of next year. This is George Wagner's defense attorney 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: talking about Jake Wagner. He's the person that is most 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: responsible for this. He's the actual killer. He's the actual shooter. 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: He's the one that snuck into these homes in the 16 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: middle of the night and shot the victims in the head. 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: All right, Our client didn't shoot anybody made the double 18 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: in this case. Four of the individuals are charged in 19 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: This is the piked in massacre returned to Pike County 20 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: Season three, Episode four, State of Ohio Versus George Wagner 21 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:29,279 Speaker 1: The Fourth. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie 22 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane, with both Jake 23 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: and Angela taking plea deals. The possible outcome of George 24 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: Wagner's trial seems on the surface limited in scope. It 25 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: is anything but that the defense is trying to position 26 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: themselves to win the case by limiting what evidence will 27 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: be admissible through a series of motions. Each motion involves 28 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: a request to the court by the defense to make 29 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: a decision on a specific issue before the trial begins. 30 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: Here's retired prosecutor and Flanagan. If you look at any trial, 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: it is the state that has to put out everything. 32 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: It's like throwing a party and you're the host or 33 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: hostess and you have to have everything ready. Well, you 34 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: might have a guest on the other side who's going 35 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: to come and say, well, you didn't get yes, you 36 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: didn't do this, you didn't do that. So all they 37 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: have to do is whittle away at the state's witnesses 38 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: and evidence. It's up to the judge to make a 39 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: decision on each of these changes. In this episode, we're 40 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: taking a deep dive into George Wagner's pre trial and 41 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: how these motions could radically change the outcome of the trial. 42 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: Two motions eighty and eighty one have been introduced specifically 43 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: to keep evidence off the table for a capital murder 44 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: case like George's. It could mean the difference between life 45 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: and death, and as we'll find out, even with their 46 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: plea deals in place, it could affect whether Jake and 47 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: Angela reopen them selves to the death penalty. The first 48 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: motion will discuss is eighty one. Here's journalist Angeanette Levy, 49 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: followed by criminal attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen. They're 50 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: both speaking with producer Chris Graves. On January tenth of 51 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, the defense for George Wagner filed motion 52 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: number eighty one, and it was a motion to suppress 53 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: audio recordings. And the thing they're taking issue with in 54 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: this motion is the fact that apparently BCI agents and 55 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: other law enforcement involved in this case placed listening devices 56 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: in a truck that was driven by both George Wagner 57 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: and Jake Wagner before the Wagners were arrested in twenty eighteen. 58 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: Hundreds of hours of audio were recorded by Ohio BCI. 59 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: I'm looking at this and I'm thinking to myself, what 60 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: on earth could be so damning in these recordings. There 61 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: may be nothing, or there may be something. I don't know. 62 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: This is all speculation at this point, but there might 63 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: be something that George incriminated himself on that they're trying 64 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: to suppress. Right, there would have to be, or they 65 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't go to the problem to file the motion, no 66 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: question about it. Defense counsel wants something with respect to 67 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: those statements thrown out. We just don't know what it is. 68 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: So in your mind, George or someone in his cab 69 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: or on some conversation possibly incriminated the family. Absolutely, absolutely, 70 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: they wouldn't be going through all this if that weren't 71 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: the case. To obtain the recordings, homicide detectives had to 72 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: gain physical access to George's truck. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. 73 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: I think there's a really big piece to the puzzle 74 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: here about wire tapping and bugging, and there seems to 75 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: be some sort of a difference between the two that 76 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: is now really a big piece of George's defense. Wire 77 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: tapping and bugging, I think often get confused, and you 78 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: see wire and bugging a lot in movies and TV shows, 79 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: but it's actually a little more nuanced than what you 80 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: see on the screen. So how wire tapping works specifically 81 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: is that you need to get permission from a phone 82 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: company to tap into the cell transmission tower. And back 83 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: in the old days, what you would see done in 84 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,239 Speaker 1: the movies is cops literally clipping wires to the phone 85 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: line in the basement or something like that. But now 86 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: it's all done remotely electronically, so in conjunction with the 87 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: warrant served to the cell phone provider, officials are able 88 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: to do it from the comfort of their office. Bugging 89 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: literally is this transmitter with a microphone that needs to 90 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: be planted someplace physically in a space where authorities would 91 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: want to pick up conversations, which is, by the way, 92 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: very interesting because they have to go through a very 93 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: layered process to be able to get permission to bug 94 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: a vehicle. Bugging is much more invasive because you're actually 95 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: able to record private versations in someone's home or their car, 96 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: and in this case, they were able to get all 97 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: types of conversations that George Wagner was having, so law 98 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: enforcement was apparently able to listen to and remotely record 99 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: everything that was said in that truck twenty four to seven. 100 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: I mean in person conversations, phone conversations, and even mister 101 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: Wagner talking to himself. The defense is claiming that the 102 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: recordings are inadmissible for a number of reasons, many pertaining 103 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: to the fact that it was George's truck that was bugged. 104 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: The case of the bugging is slightly complicated as it 105 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: applies to the Wagner's because what the BCI bugged was 106 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,559 Speaker 1: not George's vehicle. It was the truck that he used 107 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: for work, so he didn't own this big rigged truck. 108 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: It was his employer's truck, and so presumably the BCI 109 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: was given permission to access the vehicle from the employer 110 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: and planted the bug when George was not with the truck. 111 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: The type of truck George would drive is a typical 112 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: semi that you see all over the country on the highways, 113 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: and so the semi has a sleeper cab in the back, 114 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: which is where the drivers go to take a rest, 115 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: relax sleep for the night. So Ohio BCI agents put 116 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: the bug in the sleeper cab portion of the semi truck, 117 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: and this small detail is one of the four things 118 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: the defense is using to get the motion dismissed. There 119 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: could be an issue with that because that sleeper cabin 120 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,119 Speaker 1: on the semi could be analogized to being someone's home, 121 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: and you know, for all intention purposes, it probably was 122 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: when mister Wagner was on the road, and the house 123 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: is the most constitutionally protected thing that there is, so 124 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: there might be a potential problem there with the authorization itself. 125 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: Because the truck was both not owned by George and 126 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: served as a sleeping quarters, the defense may argue it 127 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: is similar to bugging a hotel room. We also know 128 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: that Jake was in the truck as well. At some 129 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: point the two brothers were alone for hours or even 130 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: days on the road and what they assumed was a 131 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: completely private setting. That really does speak to the question 132 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: of assumed privacy and conversations that may have happened between 133 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: Jake and George. Allegedly, those conversations are probably very relevant 134 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: for this trial. So the fact that the defense wants 135 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: to question that speaks more to what they're potentially hiding. 136 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: Here's Judge Pat dink a locker. This is interesting because 137 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: we don't get bugging cases wire tapping cases much. When 138 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: I looked through this, I thought to myself, if they 139 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,479 Speaker 1: had an expectation of privacy, the two of them, okay 140 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: in the state illegally vied it that, then this is 141 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: the proper motion that the judge could grant, say that 142 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: they're not allowed to bring those audio recordings into evidence. 143 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: Here's Judge Sylvia Hendon, who works as a visiting judge 144 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: out of the Ohio Supreme Court. It's a violation sixth Amendment. 145 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: We see that all the time. You have an expectation 146 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: of privacy. Does your expectation of privacy increase if you're 147 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: in a sleeper cab truck versus a regular cab truck. 148 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. But again, speaking 149 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: from an appellate perspective, I can tell you that whichever 150 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: way Judge during goes on this, it's going to be 151 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: an issue. I believe in an event of an appeal, 152 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: I would have to believe that that motion to suppress 153 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: is going to loom large in the Court of Appeals. 154 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: In the event of a guilty finding, I will be 155 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: very interested to see his ruling. If I'm employed by somebody, 156 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: even if I'm sleeping there, I wouldn't think that I 157 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: walk into a building or an entity owned by somebody 158 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: else that's employing me. I wouldn't think that I would 159 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: have an expect of privacy. Here's former BCI homicide investigator 160 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: Seth Hageman testifying in court he oversaw the creation of 161 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: the warrants for the Wagner case. So when you're installing devices, 162 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: you need a search warrant in the county where you're 163 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: going to install the device Correctly and specifically, you're talking 164 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: about the search warrant that was installed in the RNL truck, 165 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: correct that both the defendant, George Wagner and his brother 166 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner drove in tandem. Correct. To get approval to 167 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: bug or wire tap, investigators must adhere to an even 168 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: stricter protocol than a standard search warrant. They must also 169 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: produce what's called an interception warrant. Interception warrants are inherently 170 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: scrutinized to a greater degree because of the privacy issues 171 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: that they raise, and there's very specific statutory requirements of 172 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: other things. In addition to just the normal problem cause 173 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: of the search warrant that needs to be addressed among 174 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: the is not only do I have to show there's 175 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: probable cause that a crime was committed, you have to 176 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: show that there is probable cause that a specific person 177 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: or person's committed that crime. You actually have to show 178 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: that you've exhausted other methods of investigation that were less 179 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: intrusive prior to applying for that, and so those are 180 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: the different steps that make it more complicated in a 181 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: much more difficult process to obtain. Hageman and ohio Bci 182 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: felt that after months of the investigation, they had grounds 183 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: to successfully lobby for an interception warrant. During the investigation, 184 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: Inspector Hageman put together a lengthy report and submitted it 185 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: for approval of an interception warrant to bug the Wagner's truck. 186 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: The warrant was approved, giving homicide a period of thirty 187 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: days to monitor the truck once the bug was installed. 188 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: The state played it one hundred percent by the book, 189 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: but the prosecution's case is complicated by the fact that 190 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 1: ohio Bci coordinated the bugging of George's truck with his employer, 191 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: and the defense has raised this as a second point 192 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: of contention in their motion. Here again reporter Angrenette Levy, 193 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: followed by attorney and legal analyst Mike Ellen. The defense 194 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: is saying this basically violated George's rights because the owner 195 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: of the truck allowed it to happen and he had 196 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: an expectation of privacy. But I'm not really sure you 197 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: have an expectation of privacy in a truck that your 198 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: employer owns. Apparently the owner consented to the bug, but 199 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: it's a case of where the owner is actually acting 200 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: as the government's agent and authorizing that, and there could 201 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: be problems with that. It probably would be upheld. You know. 202 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: It all depends on what the cops probable cause for 203 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: the search warrant to do that would be, And I 204 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: think that's one of the sticking points on this one. 205 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: There is a third complicating issue for the prosecution. Much 206 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: of the audio was recorded across state lines. Would any 207 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: statement that is given outside of the state of Ohio 208 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: be valid under that warrant. I don't have the warrant, 209 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: so I don't know for sure, but I think that's 210 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: going to be questioned as well. Usually warrants are just 211 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: limited to the geographical jurisdiction, and in this case, it'd 212 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: be Pike County and or the state of Ohio. But 213 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: let's just say he said something incriminating in Tennessee. I 214 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, there may be problems with that too. 215 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: If it was a federal warrant, then they'd be okay, 216 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: But a state warrant, they might have some issues with that. 217 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: I've not researched it. I've never encountered it ever as 218 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: an attorney, law student, whatever, But it's an issue that 219 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: if I were defense counsel, I'd be pursuing it. The 220 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: defense also claims that the investigators on the case tried 221 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: to eat the Wagner brothers into incriminating themselves. They talk 222 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: about in the motion that they were trying to stimulate 223 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: incriminating conversation by initiating the contact, and that could be 224 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: problematic for the government too. I mean, if a statement 225 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: is freely and voluntarily given, then there's no problem with it. 226 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: But if the government induces someone to make a statement, 227 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: that could be problematic. What I also thought was very 228 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: interesting about this was the fact that police would actually 229 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: put things out on social media in hopes that one 230 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: of the Wagners, or specifically Angela Wagner accused killer Mom 231 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: that she would see these posts and that would maybe 232 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: stir up conversation that they would then have with each other, 233 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: and then those conversations would be bugged. This is actually 234 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: called tickling the wire, and tickling the wire means that 235 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: the Feds have wire taps in place and are placing 236 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: stories and then waiting for revealing conversations to happen because 237 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: of said stories. And that's the question, specifically, is that 238 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: baiting or is that just good process. Angela Wagner's mother, 239 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: Rita Joe Newcombe, was sent a court order to have 240 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: these conversations where she would go with the boys into 241 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: having further conversations with her mother and father about the crimes. 242 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: Remember when she got arrested, her mother also got arrested. 243 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: That's Rita Newcome. So here is Rita trying to get 244 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: herself also out of this mess that she was dragged 245 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: into because she was accused of all this forgery with 246 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: the original custody documents. Now she's basically working with BCI 247 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: to start conversations with the Wagner boys to hopefully get 248 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: them to say something incriminating and that just shows the 249 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: dissension between mother daughter, that's her grandsons and that's her 250 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: daughter and her son in law. Rida Nucombe was charged 251 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: with forgery, perjury, and obstructing justice. In twenty nineteen, Nwcombe 252 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: reached a plea deal and those charges were dropped. She 253 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: ultimately pleaded guilty to a reduced misdemeanor charge of obstructing 254 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: official business. It must have been probably a hard celt 255 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: to swallow. We know she didn't have much choice because 256 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: it was a court order, but at this point we 257 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: do know a little bit of her frame of mind. 258 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: According to her son, Chris Newcomb, that she felt really 259 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: betrayed by Angela. She has her son and other grandchildren 260 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: to look out for and so if Angela and her 261 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: sect of the family are not going to look out 262 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: for her, why is she going to look out for them? 263 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: I mean, that must have been the most brutal decision 264 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: to have to make. Do you actually turn against your 265 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: own daughter and your grandsons and your son in law. 266 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: And by the way, it must have worked and got 267 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: them talking, because the defense is adamant that they do 268 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: not want these conversations to be a part of any 269 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: of this moving forward. So you could imagine those conversations 270 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: must be very telling. During testimony, Seth Hagman confirmed the 271 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: success of this approach in the past. How many other 272 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: interception warrants would you say that you've been a part of. 273 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: We already has been related to a cool case homicide 274 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: four or five. And in those situations, did you use 275 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: this same method as far as tickling the wire or 276 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: provoket of acts or whatever your terminology is for that. Yes, 277 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: in every single one, even the ones that had some 278 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: level of correct crime happening, we would use some level 279 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: of tickling the wire just to try to get conversation 280 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: about those past events. Okay, And have you been met 281 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: with success in those efforts? There were success in all 282 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: of them. In most cases we've developed information that's led 283 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: to either ongoing prosecutions or guilty pleas or verdicts. And 284 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: in another case I've actually exonerated someone using that method. 285 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: Here again, as attorney my Gallen, it's just a real 286 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: fine line as far as inducement. The government has some flexibility, 287 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: but still, I mean, they can't elicitly for an illicit 288 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: purpose to goad them into making a comment. Every case 289 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: rises and falls on its own set of facts. And 290 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: I know that's not really a helpful answer, but it's 291 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: an accurate answer. Besides investigators and the Wagners themselves, no 292 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: one but the prosecution and defense know what is on 293 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: those tapes. If the guy makes some incriminating statements and 294 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 1: they are validly taken, that's a problem. I mean, it's 295 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: a problem for the defense because they are stuck with them. 296 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: If you were in the prosecution's seat and you saw 297 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: this come down, what are you thinking? Well as the prosecution, 298 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I would fight as hard as I could, 299 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: obviously to make sure the judge keeps it in. But again, 300 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: I'm just assuming that they've got a lot of other 301 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: evidence as well. But the defense attorney's doing his job here. 302 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: I mean, he wants to whittle away at Stage's evidence 303 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: as much as he can. And you know, this is 304 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: all a part of it. She's so hard to say 305 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: how much it would damage the stage case when we 306 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: don't know what other cards they're holding. We're going to 307 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Another motion, 308 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: Motion eighty has been put forth by the defense to 309 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: block Jake and Angelis testimony. It's another possible game changer 310 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: as part of his plea deal, Jake makes many claims 311 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 1: that seemingly exonerate George of the worst aspects of this 312 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: grizzly massacre. Here again Chris Graves speaking with retired prosecutor 313 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: and Flanagan. This is from Jake's profferty. Jake has stated 314 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: clearly that George did not shoot new One, did not 315 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: fire a shot, was not supposed to go with Jake 316 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: and Billy on the murder spree, and only when it's 317 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: a last second to protect Jake from Billy, who was 318 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: thought he might kill Jake at the end of the 319 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 1: series of accurgated murders, presumably to get rid of a witness. 320 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: Do you never really emotions to suppress the testimony of 321 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: someone else, So he has still the capability of trying 322 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: to show some kind of dishonesty on Jake's part, or 323 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: that he's not testifying truthfully. But what they're a thing 324 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: the court to do is to take this away to 325 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: suppress their statements before the jury ever gets to hear it. 326 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: Grounds to suppress are usually based on misconduct of officers. 327 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: Was their coercive activity on the part of officers and 328 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: they weren't coerce clearly Angela and Jake. For one thing, 329 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: the defense attorneys here don't represent the Angela or Jake, 330 00:20:54,800 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: so they don't have standing to suppress their statements. Because 331 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: they're representing George, they can move to suppress his statements, 332 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: but not Jake's and Angela. So this is somewhat novel. 333 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,719 Speaker 1: They're trying to suppress it, not because of any course 334 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: of activity, but because he might be motivated to lie 335 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: under oath because he wants to get his agreement enforced. 336 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: So our proffers done under oath they can be. They 337 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: don't have to be. I don't know how they did 338 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: it here. I know I have done that on occasion 339 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: when I have a co defendant or someone that's going 340 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: to cooperate, I have tried to get it under oath. 341 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 1: In case they don't testify in accordance with it, I 342 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: can bring that up and cross examine them. Look, you 343 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: gave a sworn statement before you under oath. You said 344 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 1: it was the truth, and you're now you're saying this, 345 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: So I'm assuming they may have done that, but it's 346 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: not required. It's possible Jake could have lied to get 347 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: out of the death penalty or said what he had 348 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: to say to save his brother. You're obviously putting some trust, 349 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: in some faith in his statement. You're putting somebody up 350 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,719 Speaker 1: there to testify to this when you may not be 351 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: exactly sure that he's telling the whole truth. And that 352 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: happens sometimes in cases where somebody they're telling you the truth, 353 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 1: but maybe not the whole truth. Like you're not getting 354 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: the whole story, the entire story, but you're basically getting 355 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: what happened, but not every little detail. Because maybe Jake 356 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 1: was trying to protect his brother at some point too. 357 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: You know, maybe he's thinking, God, I can't take my 358 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: brother down with me. I'm not sure why father would 359 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: kill his son or why another son would be fearful 360 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: of That affects even the motivation. Potentially is Billy the mastermind? Yeah, mastermind? 361 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: And also to his motive if he's trying to eliminate witnesses. 362 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: And certainly she think this is not the most functional family. 363 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: The presumption has been that it was Angela who kind 364 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: of masterminded everything. And I'm not saying she's not deserving. 365 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: I don't know here, but we're hard on matriarchs sometimes 366 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: or mothers, And did we do that legitimately It does 367 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: really kind of make you think who was calling your 368 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 1: shops in this operation? If that's indeed true, that George 369 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: only went along at the last minute to protect his 370 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: brother from their father, what was going on there? What 371 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: is Billy capable of? I mean, I guess George in 372 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: this scenario was ready to die for his brother protecting him. 373 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: That would be one hell of a car ride, wouldn't it. Yeah, 374 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: I don't know much about Billy. Nobody's spoken about Billy 375 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: very much. Is that the kind of defense they're fashioning, 376 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: That he's here to protect Jake from big Dad Billy 377 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: and that they're both afraid of him? And how is 378 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: he going to protect him from bad Billy unless he 379 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: hits a firearm? Maybe? Do you know what kind of 380 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: dad he was? I was here with Jake and George. 381 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: He's an asshole. Chris knwcom, who we've heard from before, 382 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: is Angela Agner's half brother. Now, Karen Billy get into 383 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: some screaming matches. Billy's about a useless sustance on a borehole. 384 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: That's the guy who run the truth up. How do 385 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: you mean? I mean that man is one hundred percent 386 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: just lazy and hale useless, always conniving on something, trying 387 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: to think how to do something, to make a quick book. 388 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: I think the most horseless human being I think I've 389 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: ever met in my life. Despite Billy's nature, angelisted by 390 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 1: his side. Some see a parallel with Angela's dad, Eddie 391 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: pug Carter. I knew him, his hug Carter. He always 392 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: wore this slight metal brace and he walked with a limp. 393 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: What I heard from my dad was that he would 394 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: five electric holes and still copper or something off the holes, 395 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: and he's got electric huted and it affected his walking. 396 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: It could be that Angela was fiercely loyal to Bill 397 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: because he reminded her of her father. At the end 398 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: of the day, the prosecution in this particular case is 399 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: focused on one job, putting George Wagner behind bars, or 400 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: possibly even sending him to death row. It will be 401 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: up to the jury to navigate the muddy waters of 402 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: the Wagner family dynamic. If you are a group of 403 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: people and you are going to go do something, if 404 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: one person holds back and says, now, I'm not going 405 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: to do this, it may not happen. If two do, 406 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: certainly it may not happen. But when you hear these 407 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: people bolstering each other and actually sharing ideas and dynamics, 408 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: they're just as much a part of all that ended 409 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: up happening as the person who actually pulled the trigger. 410 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: And I know that, and I think jurors know that, 411 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: and people know that, But will they really hold them accountable? 412 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: It's a little harder to understand how the police are 413 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: going to work into the trial. Actually presiding over four 414 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: separate cases is a lot easier than presiding over four 415 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,959 Speaker 1: people together, because in a separate case, you're focused on 416 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: that particular defendant. Now you're still going to have to 417 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: keep things straight. You're going to have to know when 418 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,719 Speaker 1: to exclude evidence. There's a lot of rules about confessions 419 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: of co defendants that you're going to have to follow. 420 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: But to try to balance a case with four defendants, 421 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: because right away you've got eight lawyers. If you're talking 422 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: about a capital murder case, so you've got a minimum 423 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: of eight lawyers, four defendants, and lordliners how many witnesses. 424 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. Without the audio from 425 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: George's truck, the jury will not get to hear what 426 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: the detectives heard in private conversations between the brothers, and 427 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: if the defense's motions are successful, Jake and Angeli's testimony 428 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: will be off the table as well. Would you be 429 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: concerned if it's a live witness and Angela steps on 430 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: the stand and she's facing her oldest son testifying against them, 431 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: is there a word that might cause her not to Yeah, 432 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: ny witness who's somewhat involved with the defense. Even though 433 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: they've said they're testifying and they've given good information to pass, 434 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: you have to wonder what's the physical, visceral effects, emotional 435 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: effect of sitting in front of that person. Will they freeze? 436 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: Will they talk? Will they tell us what they've told 437 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: us before? This brings us to the final issue. The 438 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: defense and prosecution must navigate how Jake and Angela's plea 439 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: deal relates to these motions and what that means for 440 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: the future of all four Wagners. As of now, the 441 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: death penalty is still on the table for George Wagner, 442 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: and Jake and Angela's deal to avoid death row is 443 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: not guaranteed. It's contingent upon their testimony being what the 444 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: court calls to the satisfaction of the prosecution. We look 445 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: at this family and their story keeps changing, and I 446 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: am curious to know what the air quote satisfaction of 447 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: the prosecution even means. Does that mean that if Jake 448 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: and Angela, who we know have taken plea agreements, if 449 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: they don't deliver the goods, then what is their death 450 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: sentence put back on the table or all of their 451 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: death sentences put back on the table? Who decides the 452 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: satisfaction piece? It would be the prosecution. And so basically, 453 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: under the terms of their deal, they probably agreed to 454 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: the version of events of that night and the months 455 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: they let up to the crime. And so if once 456 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: they're on the stand under oath and they don't stick 457 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: to the script for lack of a better term, than 458 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: the whole deal would be off and death penalty would 459 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: be back on the table for the entire family. Georgia's 460 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: sticking to his not guilty plea, which would imply that 461 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: he's not involved in this at all, And so Jake 462 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: and Angela's testimony, which we can assume is going to 463 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: say something along the lines of will. While George might 464 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: not have pulled the trigger, he certainly knew about the 465 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: murders and might have been there the night of the 466 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: murders and helped cover the murders up, and so that 467 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: testimony is going to be pretty damning for his not 468 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,959 Speaker 1: guilty plea. It does also speak to the fact that 469 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: there are so many endings that could still be you know, 470 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: we see plea deals and you think that's the end 471 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: of the road for Jake Wagner, but now that's not so. 472 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: There's a big performance ahead and he and now his mother, 473 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: who he's essentially working with and against at the same time. 474 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: How this plays out in court with George and then 475 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: later Billy Dad, every piece of it affects the other person. 476 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: So the totality of it is massive, and this whole 477 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: case from the beginning has been utterly unpredictable. And so 478 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,239 Speaker 1: to assume when Billy and George's trials start that we 479 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen and we know what Jake 480 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: and Angela are going to say when they're on the stand, 481 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: I think would be naive. I think what we can 482 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: assume is that we don't really know the ending yet. 483 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: We've been told several theories even just this season alone, 484 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: that speak to a larger plot happening behind the scenes, 485 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: and that it's possible that the Wagoners are lying, Jake 486 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: may have a hand in deciding whether he and his 487 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: brother live or die. It's also possible the defense and 488 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: prosecution don't know the whole story that Angela and Jake 489 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: have to tell. There's a tenseness about it that isn't 490 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: there with other cases. We don't know what other evidence exists, 491 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, we just don't know, to be honest with you, though, 492 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,479 Speaker 1: it all depends on what their story is on that 493 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: day in a courtroom, face to face with the son, 494 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: with a brother and a jury of their peers, I mean, 495 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: with whisperings of Carton involvement and other rumors still lingering 496 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: in Pike County. If given the opportunity to test, if 497 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: I could Jake and Angela Wagner choose to blow this 498 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: whole thing up? Or are they being put up to 499 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: it behind bars? We have heard many rumors regarding the 500 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: Cartel and that there's a larger story happening here, and 501 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: that the Rodents murder was not just merely over custody, 502 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: but that there's larger issues at play with some different 503 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: dealings between the families, and that's dangerous stuff. And maybe 504 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: it's possible that the Wagoners are safest behind Bars. More 505 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: on that next time. If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, 506 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: listen to our other hit series, Crazy and Love. New 507 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: episodes there every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. For 508 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram at 509 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes and massacres produced by Stephanie Lydecker, 510 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane, Chris Graves and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 511 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff Tis, music by Jared Aston, audio 512 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: mixing by Ken Novak. The Piked and Massacre is a 513 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 514 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 515 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.