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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with

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Speaker 3: part three in our series on diamonds. Now, if you

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Speaker 3: haven't heard parts one and two, you might want to

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Speaker 3: regress through time listen to those first, But there's no

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Speaker 3: strict continuity to preserve in this series, so if you'd

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Speaker 3: rather just listen to this one first, that's fine too.

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Speaker 3: Brief recap of the previous episodes. In part one, we

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Speaker 3: talked mainly about the idea that first got me interested

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Speaker 3: in covering diamonds, which is the question of weather diamonds,

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Speaker 3: especially in the form of crushed up diamond powder, are poisonous.

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Speaker 3: This has long been a belief present in multiple cultures

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Speaker 3: that shattered diamonds or diamond powder are lethal if swallowed,

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Speaker 3: and we talked about some weird and fascinating stories of

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Speaker 3: attempted diamond poisonings from history. We looked at the question

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Speaker 3: of whether diamonds are actually poisonous or not. The answer

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Speaker 3: we landed on was probably not, and at least one

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Speaker 3: major author from modern times on the subject downplayed this

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Speaker 3: as a myth with no evidence behind it. But we've

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Speaker 3: also never found really strong evidence that diamond powder is safe,

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Speaker 3: so personally, I'm still saying probably better not to ingest it.

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Speaker 3: In part two of the series, we talked about how

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Speaker 3: diamonds form and how they're brought to the surface. We

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Speaker 3: talked about some of the physical properties of diamonds, such

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Speaker 3: as the fact that they are the hardest naturally occurring

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Speaker 3: material on Earth, and how the property of hardness differs

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Speaker 3: from other properties like toughness, leading to the strange fact

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Speaker 3: that you generally can't scratch or cut a diamond with

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Speaker 3: anything other than another diamond, yet you can shatter a

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Speaker 3: diamond with a regular steel hammer. We also talked about

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Speaker 3: some wonderful legends of diamonds, including the legendary Valley of

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Speaker 3: Jewels associated with the stories of figures like Sinbad and

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Speaker 3: Alexander the Great, as well as some of the significance

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Speaker 3: of diamonds in Hindu iconography. And today we're back to

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Speaker 3: talk about diamonds once again.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, what's our first stop on the diamond

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Speaker 2: express here?

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Speaker 3: Joe Well I got interested in a specific question about

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Speaker 3: diamonds from the starting point of a scene, a movie

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Speaker 3: scene you talked about in part two, I think, which

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Speaker 3: is a scene in Superman three where Christopher Reeve as

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Speaker 3: Superman picks up a piece of coal. I think he's

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Speaker 3: actually like standing at a coal mine. He picks up

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Speaker 3: a piece of coal and then crushes it into a

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Speaker 3: diamond in his fist.

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Speaker 2: Completely cut, just already beautiful, ready to go.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and huge by the way. But this connects to

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Speaker 3: something that, strangely is a one of these well known

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Speaker 3: facts that may well not be a fact, And that

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Speaker 3: well known nonfactual fact is that diamonds are generally formed

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Speaker 3: in the ground out of coal. I have encountered a

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Speaker 3: number of sources arguing that this is, for the most part,

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Speaker 3: not the case that diamonds are generally not formed from coal,

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Speaker 3: though this may be less of a settled question than

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Speaker 3: it first appears. I don't know. We might examine that

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Speaker 3: question in more depth if we happen to come back

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Speaker 3: in another episode and talk about diamonds some more. But

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Speaker 3: this got me thinking about comparisons between diamonds and coal.

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Speaker 3: There are reasons that it would make sense to assume

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Speaker 3: diamonds are just a sort of continuation of the coal

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Speaker 3: forming process. So diamonds are made of pure carbon and

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Speaker 3: coal is made of carbon. Coal forms deep underground, diamonds

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Speaker 3: form deep underground. It just seems natural to think that

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Speaker 3: you start with ancient plant matter or organic matter of

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Speaker 3: some kind, probably decaying plant matter, and some kind of

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Speaker 3: ancient swamp. It gets buried, It first turns into peat,

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Speaker 3: and then turns into coal, and then given enough time

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Speaker 3: and pressure, it turns into a diamond. Now, for the

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Speaker 3: most part, it seems like this probably isn't the case.

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Speaker 3: Most diamonds seem to be older than most coal and

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Speaker 3: formed deeper down in the Earth's mantle then you would

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Speaker 3: normally find deposits of coal. But there are these obvious

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Speaker 3: physical similarities that they are both chunks of carbon that

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Speaker 3: come out of the earth. But a difference to point

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Speaker 3: out is that whild diamonds are pretty close to pure

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Speaker 3: elemental carbon, well over ninety nine percent carbon by mass.

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Speaker 3: Coal has a lot of different stuff in it. The

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Speaker 3: main constituent of coal is usually carbon, but it's purity

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Speaker 3: is more variable in the range of like forty to

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Speaker 3: ninety percent carbon, with other major elements like hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen,

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Speaker 3: and sulfur, making up the rest of the mass. But anyways,

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Speaker 3: since you know the main thing people do with coal

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Speaker 3: is burn, it, raise the question can you burn a diamond?

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Speaker 2: I mean, as we've discussed, it would seem to just

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Speaker 2: run counter to, if nothing else, the idea of the diamond.

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Speaker 3: Right, it's indestructible. Right. The Greek and Latin word used

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Speaker 3: for the diamond is adamas, meaning unbreakable, indestructible. Well, I

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Speaker 3: found this question addressed directly in several sources. One that

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Speaker 3: I want to cite is an excellent blog post from

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Speaker 3: twenty fourteen by a West Texas A and M professor

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Speaker 3: of physics named Christopher S. Baird, and so to start

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Speaker 3: with a direct answer to the question and then explain

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Speaker 3: from there. Yes, diamonds are indeed a carbon fuel source,

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Speaker 3: and they can in fact be burned, but they don't

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Speaker 3: burn as easily as coal. So let's expand on that

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Speaker 3: a bit. Fire or combustion, as we've talked about on

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Speaker 3: the show before, is a rapid reaction in which the

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Speaker 3: molecules of a fuel source in the presence of heat,

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Speaker 3: rapidly combined with oxygen, producing additional heat and light in

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Speaker 3: the process. So in order to have fire, it's commonly

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Speaker 3: said that you need three ingredients. We know the equation

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Speaker 3: now right, it's fuel, oxygen, and heat, and you can

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Speaker 3: prevent or extinguish a fire by robbing it of any

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Speaker 3: of these necessary ingredients. Now that fuel can be a

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Speaker 3: number of different things. We know, for example, that pure

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Speaker 3: hydrogen gas is flammable. It burns. But Baird mentions in

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Speaker 3: his blog posts that the most common form of combustion

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Speaker 3: that we encounter in the world is carbon combustion. So

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Speaker 3: most of the fuel sources we burn in day to

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Speaker 3: day life are carbon based fuel sources. That means carbon

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Speaker 3: is the fuel in the fire equation. So you get

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Speaker 3: a carbon based substance, you get it hot enough in

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Speaker 3: the presence of oxygen, and the carbon atoms will start

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Speaker 3: to break their bonds with one another and with atoms

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Speaker 3: of other elements in the material to instead form bonds

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Speaker 3: with oxygen from the air. And this combination of carbon

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Speaker 3: and oxygen is the reason that the main byproducts of

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Speaker 3: burning carbon based fuels are carbon oxygen molecules like carbon

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Speaker 3: dioxide CO two and carbon monoxide COO. So one different

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Speaker 3: way to think of building a fire, say, is making

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Speaker 3: carbon dioxide. That is what the biggest part of what

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Speaker 3: this reaction is doing.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: In fuel sources that have other substances in addition to carbon,

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Speaker 3: there are additional byproducts. For example, fossil fuels that also

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Speaker 3: have hydrogen content will also produce the byproduct of water

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Speaker 3: vapor as the hydrogen reacts with oxygen to form H

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Speaker 3: two O. But to come back specifically to carbon burning,

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Speaker 3: to carbon combustion, the way it works is that, again

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Speaker 3: you have to get a carbon fuel source up to

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Speaker 3: a certain temperature for the react with oxygen to start.

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Speaker 3: That's the ignition temperature. But fortunately you don't have to

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Speaker 3: keep applying external heat because combustion is what's known as

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Speaker 3: an exothermic process. The chemical reaction releases its own heat,

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Speaker 3: generally more heat than you put in to begin with,

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Speaker 3: and this heat that's released causes more carbon bonds to

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Speaker 3: break and allows more carbon to combine with oxygen, and

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Speaker 3: so on and so on until one of the ingredients

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Speaker 3: in the fire equation is depleted or removed. But this

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Speaker 3: self sustaining exothermic property is the main reason carbon combustion

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Speaker 3: is so useful to humans. It's a net energy source

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Speaker 3: for us. You invest a little bit of energy up front,

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Speaker 3: and then the fuel and the atmosphere do the rest,

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Speaker 3: letting you take out more energy than you put in.

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Speaker 3: But this brings us back to this question. Since a

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Speaker 3: diamond is made of almost pure carbon, wouldn't it seem

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Speaker 3: to be an almost perfect fuel source. And at the

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Speaker 3: same time, it still seems counterintuitive to think that a

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Speaker 3: gemstone could burn up in a fire. I think because

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Speaker 3: we think of a diamond as a type of rock,

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Speaker 3: and in our regular experience, rocks do not burn.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's totally the case, like

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Speaker 2: the idea of the diamond as indestructible, but also when

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Speaker 2: you you know, at least dip your toes in some

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Speaker 2: of the science about like high heat, high pressure formation,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't seem like the kind of thing you'd be

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Speaker 2: able to throw into a furnace, even if we're having

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Speaker 2: to imagine some sort of like sort of sci fi

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Speaker 2: furnace to drive your diamond powered train across the surface

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Speaker 2: of a distant planet.

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Speaker 3: Right, But despite these intuitions, diamonds are carbon based products,

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Speaker 3: and they do burn. And this in fact brings us

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Speaker 3: back to a historical figure that we mentioned in the

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Speaker 3: previous episode. The eighteenth century French chemist Antoine Lavoisier, who

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Speaker 3: we talked previously about how he is credited with proving

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Speaker 3: that diamonds are made of nearly pure carbon. Apparently a

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Speaker 3: major piece of evidence that Lavoisier produced in order to

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Speaker 3: support that conclusion was an experiment showing that diamond could

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Speaker 3: be burned and that the byproduct of its combustion was

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Speaker 3: almost entirely carbon dioxide. Now, on the fact that diamonds

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Speaker 3: can burn, often, when I learned something like this, I

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Speaker 3: like to see if I can see it with my

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Speaker 3: own eyes, not that I don't believe it in this case,

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Speaker 3: it seems like a well established fact, but just kind

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Speaker 3: of to have increased confidence in knowing what it looks

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Speaker 3: like and so forth. So I went looking for some

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Speaker 3: trustworthy video of a diamond burning, and I did indeed

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Speaker 3: find several. A good one was a video put out

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Speaker 3: by the Royal Institution for their twenty twelve Christmas Lectures,

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Speaker 3: in which they demonstrate the burning of graphite, which is

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Speaker 3: also made of carbon, but far less compressed than a diamond,

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Speaker 3: and also the burning of a diamond and rob I've

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Speaker 3: attached some pictures for you to look at here in

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Speaker 3: the outline though of course we'll describe them for you

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Speaker 3: at home. This year is a diamond burning shortly after

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Speaker 3: it has been ignited in a glass chamber with a

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Speaker 3: supply of flowing oxygen. And one thing I would note

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Speaker 3: about it in the early parts of the burning process

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Speaker 3: is that I can't see what looks like a traditional

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Speaker 3: visible flame, you know, sort of the upward rising flame

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Speaker 3: like you would see coming off of a campfire. Instead,

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Speaker 3: I see what looks like the diamond glowing like a

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Speaker 3: coal glowing on a charcoal grill after the flames die down.

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Speaker 3: Except with those coals, they usually glow a kind of

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Speaker 3: dull orange. Here this is glowing ten times brighter than

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Speaker 3: any piece of coal I've ever seen, and with a

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Speaker 3: wider shade of light than I'm used to seeing in charcoal,

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Speaker 3: more of a yellow white glow than an orange.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, if anything, this reminds me of special effects

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Speaker 2: I've seen in movies and video games, like when I

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Speaker 2: don't know Marvel's captain Marvel is about to go supernova

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Speaker 2: and her flesh starts glowing with this kind of like

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Speaker 2: flameless intensity, that sort of thing. But of course, this

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Speaker 2: is not a Marvel move. This is not a video game,

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Speaker 2: this is real life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so there's this glowing imminence coming off of it. However,

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Speaker 3: I did notice that later in the experiment they show

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Speaker 3: there is what looks like a more traditional flame, mostly

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Speaker 3: blue in color, coming off of the diamond. And I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure why that was visible only toward the end

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Speaker 3: of the burning experiment. Maybe it was just an issue

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Speaker 3: of like lighting or camera angle, or maybe it had

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Speaker 3: to do with changing conditions in the chamber as the

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Speaker 3: diamond burns. Maybe I don't know something about temperature, oxygen

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Speaker 3: flow or something like that. But experiments like this confirm

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Speaker 3: that you absolutely can burn diamonds, So that raises the

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Speaker 3: question should we capitalize on this fuel source. Rob you

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Speaker 3: suggested the idea of like diamond punk technology earlier, you know,

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Speaker 3: like the run a diamond burning steam powered locomotive or

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Speaker 3: diamond fired electric power plants. For a few reasons, a

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Speaker 3: couple of which may be obvious, one little less obvious,

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Speaker 3: I think that would not work out. Obvious point number one,

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Speaker 3: diamonds are expensive and rare compared to other carbon fuel sources,

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Speaker 3: of course, would not make economic sense to burn them

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Speaker 3: as fuel. Point number two, which I think is less obvious.

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Speaker 3: Though diamonds do burn, they don't burn as easily as

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Speaker 3: fuels like coal and wood. According to Baird, the reason

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Speaker 3: for this is the strength of the bonds between the

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Speaker 3: carbon atoms found in the diamond cubic. So you remember

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Speaker 3: last time we talked about the crystal structure of the

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Speaker 3: diamond in which each so it's like a three dimensional

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Speaker 3: structure that is linked in all directions, where each carbon

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Speaker 3: atom is attached to four other carbon atoms with strong

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Speaker 3: covalent bonds, meaning each of the carbon atoms is sharing

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Speaker 3: pairs of electrons with its neighbor, and these are extremely

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Speaker 3: strong bonds. And the dense structure of atoms that is

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Speaker 3: created within the diamond, these are the reasons why the

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Speaker 3: diamond is so physically hard and nearly impossible to cut.

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Speaker 3: These strong bonds and tight structure mean that it takes

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Speaker 3: a lot of energy to break carbon atoms free from

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Speaker 3: the diamond crystal. Now, in the case of physical pressure, friction,

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Speaker 3: and impact, this explains the diamond's resilience, and in the

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Speaker 3: case of combustion, it means that a diamond has a

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Speaker 3: much higher ignition temperature than other carbon based fuels. And

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Speaker 3: I've seen different numbers for the temperature at which diamond burns.

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Speaker 3: I guess, as with other fuels, this would depend on

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Speaker 3: environmental conditions as well, like the concentration of oxygen and

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Speaker 3: the surrounding air and things like that. But the number

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Speaker 3: that Baird gives is that a diamond burns in regular

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Speaker 3: air at about nine hundred degrees celsius, which is about

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Speaker 3: sixteen fifty fahrenheit. And for a point of comparison, Baird

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Speaker 3: says that the ignition temperature of normal wood in atmosphere

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Speaker 3: is only about three hundred degrees celsius. So there is

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Speaker 3: a major difference in the amount of heat you need

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Speaker 3: to put in at the beginning to get a diamond

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Speaker 3: fire started, though the heat necessary would be reduced in

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Speaker 3: an oxygen rich environment. And then the other thing is

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Speaker 3: a diamond fire needs a rich environment of oxygen to

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Speaker 3: continue burning, so you got to give it plenty of

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Speaker 3: oxygen in order to keep powering that reaction of the

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Speaker 3: oxygen in the air with the carbon. However, though it

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Speaker 3: is much harder to burn than coal or wood, Bird

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Speaker 3: does say you can burn or scorch a diamond with

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Speaker 3: regular flame, especially if it's really hot and has plenty

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Speaker 3: of oxygen. He mentions that jewelers sometimes have to be

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Speaker 3: careful if they're using a blow torch to mold metal

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Speaker 3: around a diamond, since the diamond could technically burn. Though

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Speaker 3: it seems like from other things I was reading, without

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Speaker 3: supplemental oxygen, a diamond typically won't burst into flames and

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Speaker 3: disappear into smoke. It will instead, like show signs of

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Speaker 3: damage directly on the surface, which could have increased opacity,

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Speaker 3: making the diamond look sort of cloudy on the burned surface.

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Speaker 3: Rob I found an image of this that I attached

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Speaker 3: for you to look at. Here there are parts that

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Speaker 3: are of this. This is a faceted cut diamond, and

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Speaker 3: it has parts that appear to be burn marks where

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Speaker 3: it looks kind of cloudy and opaque, whereas the rest

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Speaker 3: of it is very sparkly and clear.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 3: Okay, now there's another thing that Baird does not mention,

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Speaker 3: But I was also wondering about with the difference in

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Speaker 3: the burning in how easy it is to burn something

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Speaker 3: like coal versus something like diamonds, which would be the

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Speaker 3: porosity of the material, because if you have a less dense,

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Speaker 3: more porous material, it seems that it is easier for

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Speaker 3: oxygen to get in and surround the carbon atoms and

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Speaker 3: more easily react with them. Whereas a diamond is very dense,

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Speaker 3: very tight structure, you're essentially going to have all of

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Speaker 3: the reaction with oxygen happening right at the surface layer.

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Speaker 3: Another question this raises I assume this would be the case,

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Speaker 3: is that a diamond powder would burn much more easily

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Speaker 3: than a solid diamond. This is true though of most

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Speaker 3: flammable things. You know, most of anything that you could

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Speaker 3: set on fire in a solid form will combust much

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Speaker 3: more rapidly and easily in a powdered form. And as

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Speaker 3: a final point thinking about burning diamonds, though, the interesting

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Speaker 3: thing is that so they are a carbon based fuel source,

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Speaker 3: and this does mean that even if diamonds were cheap

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Speaker 3: burning them as fuel, if we wanted to create that

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Speaker 3: diamond punk world with the diamond fired steamships and the locomotives,

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Speaker 3: this would be yet another energy source that would result

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Speaker 3: in adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere, which of course

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Speaker 3: is not exactly something we need to be adding to

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Speaker 3: the menu of energy options in the world today. Though,

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Speaker 3: I was trying to see if I could come up

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Speaker 3: with an estimate on this, and I did not get anywhere.

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Speaker 3: I suspect even if we burned all the free diamonds

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Speaker 3: in the world, it would probably release very little carbon

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Speaker 3: compared to what's already being emitted from daily fossil fuel use.

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Speaker 3: But like I said, I could not come up with

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Speaker 3: solid numbers on that. If any excellent nerds in the

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Speaker 3: audience want to draw up an estimate, we invite your efforts.

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Speaker 3: What would be the carbon footprint of a brief attempt

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Speaker 3: by Planet Earth to go diamond punk?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that. Also one of

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Speaker 2: their estimates about how long it would take to burn

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Speaker 2: up all the diamonds. Like, imagine the scenario I was

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Speaker 2: just trying to come with, wy would what would even

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Speaker 2: a very far fetched scenario, and which is what makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Let's imagine outer limits. Ask super advanced alien society just

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Speaker 2: decide they want to teach humanity a lesson, so they

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Speaker 2: gift us this device. And this device is a furnace

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Speaker 2: attached to a doomsday weapon. And it's pretty simple. All

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Speaker 2: we have to do is keep the fire in this

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Speaker 2: furnace burning, and as long as the fire is burning,

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Speaker 2: the doomsday device will not go off. But the furnace

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Speaker 2: will only burn diamonds. You can only put diamonds in it.

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Speaker 2: So that leaves the people of Earth to figure out

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Speaker 2: how they are going to collect set diamonds, at what

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Speaker 2: rate they are going to put them in the furnace,

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Speaker 2: and indeed, how long will they be able to keep

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Speaker 2: this up before there are no more diamonds to burn

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Speaker 2: and the device goes off.

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Speaker 3: This feels like a science fiction variation on the plot

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Speaker 3: of Speed.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, it is kind of a Speed Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 2: you can imagine a Dennis Hopper. Dennis Hopper is the

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Speaker 2: alien in this imaginary Outer Limits episode.

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Speaker 3: I really like this idea. Can you imagine though, if

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Speaker 3: aliens actually did come to Earth, we went to meet

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Speaker 3: their ambassador and it's Dennis Hopper, that just would not

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Speaker 3: inspire confidence.

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Speaker 2: Well, it depends on which what part of Dennis Hopper's

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Speaker 2: somography they're drawing from, Like the younger Dennis Hopper, you know,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of roles there where he was

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Speaker 2: more of the relatable leading man. It's only you know,

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Speaker 2: later in life we intended to play on the whole

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Speaker 2: more deplorable characters.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah. By the way, I'm not insulting Dennis Hoppers.

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Speaker 3: I just been like I was thinking, we are greeted

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Speaker 3: by the you know, the photo journalist and Apocalypse now

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Speaker 3: or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he had a knack for playing often unhinged characters

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Speaker 2: for sure. All right, well, let's return once more to

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Speaker 2: the ancient world. Particularly, let's get let's get into some

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Speaker 2: concepts concerning diamonds and ancient Greece and ancient Rome.

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Speaker 3: Oh boy, I think we got some good stuff on

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Speaker 3: this this one today. Now, briefly to refresh about some

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Speaker 3: stuff we talked about in the last episode we did,

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Speaker 3: I think bring up Plenty of the Elders references to

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Speaker 3: diamonds in his work. Remember, Plenty of the Elder is

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Speaker 3: a first century ce Roman author who compiled a very important,

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Speaker 3: influential sort of encyclopedia of what was known to you know,

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Speaker 3: to his people at the time, known as the Natural History.

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Speaker 3: And Plenty, I think is the very last volume of

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Speaker 3: Plenty's Natural History that was devoted to minerals and gemstones.

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Speaker 3: And Plenty used in his work a term that was

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Speaker 3: derived from the Greek called adamas, which earlier sources used

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Speaker 3: to refer to a variety of materials that were considered

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Speaker 3: very hard or maybe indestructible, but from description were clearly

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Speaker 3: not diamonds. Plenty confusingly uses this term to refer to

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Speaker 3: a list of different materials, some of which, it does seem,

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Speaker 3: are diamonds, but maybe others are not.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 3: For example, a footnote in the one of the translations

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Speaker 3: of Plenty we often turned to, which is available online,

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Speaker 3: the Bostock and Riley translation, that is a footnote saying

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Speaker 3: that the author of this footnote thought that Plenty was

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Speaker 3: probably not familiar with actual diamonds. However, this does not

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Speaker 3: seem to be the conclusion of Jack Ogden in his

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Speaker 3: book Diamonds the King of Gems, which we have referred

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Speaker 3: to a few times on this series already. Ogden does

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Speaker 3: seem to think that in some of these instances, Plenty

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Speaker 3: may be talking about diamonds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so let's get into some of this, so,

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Speaker 2: you know, drawing again from Ogden. Also, Ogden, along with

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Speaker 2: historian Brian Fagan, in a source I referenced in the

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Speaker 2: last episode, also get into this a little bit. But

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Speaker 2: the introduction of diamond tipped engraving stones during the early

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Speaker 2: Roman period seems to have transformed the world of lapidary,

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Speaker 2: allowing even the hardest jim stones to be drilled and

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Speaker 2: in grave. So again we have to remember that there's

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Speaker 2: this interesting dual nature to the diamond of the ancient world,

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Speaker 2: where it's used seemingly at times initially as just a

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Speaker 2: raw material to work gemstones that were already popular colored gems,

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Speaker 2: and then there's this transition into realizing that diamonds on

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Speaker 2: their own are beautiful and are also suitable to be

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Speaker 2: considered gemstones.

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Speaker 3: Right, so in many cases it's thought of as like

402
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 3: a useful industrial material before it's thought of as a

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00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 3: just beautiful decorative gem on its own.

404
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 2: And this is important because to understand where we're going

405
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Speaker 2: to go next, you need to realize that, yes, it

406
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 2: does make sense to sometimes want to destroy a diamond

407
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: in these even in the ancient world, because again, not

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Speaker 2: all diamonds are going to be suitable for working into

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Speaker 2: some sort of valuable stone, but also there are going

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Speaker 2: to be uses for diamond fragments and diamond powders if

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Speaker 2: you are working stones other gymstones and preparing them to

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Speaker 2: use in various bits of jewelry and so forth.

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Speaker 3: Right, it's kind of an unbeatable abrasive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And this brings us to the idea of softening

415
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Speaker 2: your diamonds up by soaking them in goat blood. Not

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Speaker 2: just any goat blood, but the blood of a he goat.

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Speaker 3: The blood of she goats will not do yes.

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Speaker 2: This is mentioned by both Plenty of the Elder and

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Speaker 2: later by pasanias this is the yeah, the idea that

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Speaker 2: while the diamond is hard and resistant to destruction, get

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Speaker 2: yourself a little goat blood he goat blood, Let it

422
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 2: soak in there, and that will put it in that

423
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 2: that'll soften things up enough that you can break it

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Speaker 2: up and get what you need out of it. Now,

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Speaker 2: Ogden points out that plenty source on this is uncertain

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't seem to be based on anything drawn

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00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: from Indian diamond tradition. So again, remember India is like

428
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 2: the the hot area for initial diamond culture, and it

429
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,719
Speaker 2: seems to sort of flow out of India into other cultures,

430
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Speaker 2: Mediterranean cultures and as we'll discuss, also into Chinese culture

431
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Speaker 2: and so forth. So this idea doesn't seem to directly

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Speaker 2: relate to anything known to exist in Indian diamond traditions,

433
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Speaker 2: but it doesn't go away after it has been brought up,

434
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Speaker 2: so there are writings about it from the fourteen hundreds onward,

435
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Speaker 2: with descriptions of goat blood being used to soak and

436
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Speaker 2: soften diamonds. In time, there were even writings on what

437
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: sort of diet your he goat would need if you

438
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 2: wanted to use its blood to soften up your diamonds.

439
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 3: Wow, that's elaborate.

440
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: None other than Roger Bacon refuted this idea during the

441
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: thirteenth century, though I guess not everyone listened to Roger

442
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 2: Bacon because the idea seemed to persist, and Ogden writes that, Yeah,

443
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 2: ultimately we have no idea where this came from, but

444
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 2: it may be linked to various blood sacrifized rights connected

445
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: to diamonds, much in the same way that such rights

446
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 2: were associated with ancient metallurgy. He also speculates, and this

447
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: is where it gets really really interesting, that maybe gem

448
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 2: cutters would have needed to crush diamonds to produce chips

449
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 2: for their work, like we were saying, and a working

450
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: medium or paste would be useful to keep those bits

451
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: of diamond from flying all over the place. I think

452
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 2: we'd touched on this in the last episode or the

453
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: one before it that like when you do destroy a diamond,

454
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: there's often this observation that just like it almost vanishes,

455
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 2: it turns into this dust. It's just hard to collect.

456
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: It just goes everywhere.

457
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 3: Right, So the idea is that if you could pound

458
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 3: or smash your diamond within the matrix of like a thick,

459
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 3: sticky liquid substance, that might help prevent some of it

460
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 3: from being lost, just like flying off the table and

461
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 3: going all over the place.

462
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: Right, right, So what might you use? Might you have

463
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 2: used something like goat's blood? Ogden So points out that

464
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 2: it's possible that they were that people use something that

465
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 2: maybe wasn't blood but contained blood, or maybe just looked

466
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 2: like blood. He cites a Sanskrit recipe for medicinal diamond

467
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 2: dust that involves first encasing the diamond in a mixture

468
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: of beaten cotton plant and beetlenut, which has a red coloration.

469
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: Then you roast it several times and then you're able

470
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 2: to break it up.

471
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting, you know, I've before heard of the

472
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 3: I think I've heard of the juice of a beetlenut

473
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 3: being compared to blood or looking like blood in some instances.

474
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 3: So yeah, I wonder if that could be a mistaken

475
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 3: identity at a distance there.

476
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe there are cases of Europeans encountering peoples

477
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: that were chewing beetlenut and they would describe all that

478
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: their mouths were bloody. It's like, not that mouths weren't bloody,

479
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 2: they're just chewing beetlenut. Yeah, but anyway, Ogden notes that

480
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 2: lead was also used in the breaking of diamonds, something

481
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: that took on airs of magic, since the that is,

482
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 2: of course very soft and diamonds are very hard. But yeah,

483
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 2: while diamonds are hard and have long been used to

484
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: cut other gems, as we've been discussing, they're also quite brittle,

485
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: and one means of breaking them and retaining the fragments

486
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 2: was to first encase the diamond in lead before striking

487
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: it with a hammer. Wax or a mixture made from

488
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 2: horn was often used in some traditions, with a later

489
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: idea connected to another tantalizing idea that diamond might be

490
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: broken with a ram's horn.

491
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 3: Huh. I wonder if that's true. I mean, a diamond

492
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 3: can be shattered with a sufficiently powerful blow. But everything

493
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 3: I've read about and seen that was used for that

494
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: purpose would be like a strong metal hammer, you know,

495
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 3: like a steel hammer or something like that. Would a

496
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 3: ram's horn be hard enough?

497
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: I don't know, well, I think maybe the idea is

498
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 2: probably not. But in sort of the game of telephone

499
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: and myth making, the idea of using mixture with ground

500
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: horn would be the thing you'd use. And then it

501
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 2: gets you know, in the same way that eventually you're

502
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: talking about just soaking your diamonds and blood or in

503
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: this case, beating it with a horn. You know, it's

504
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: just it becomes this sort of magical, cryptic thing, but

505
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: it perhaps has a connection to some sort of actual practice.

506
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: Now turning our attention to ancient China first, want to

507
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: just mentioned some some points that Ogden makes about diamonds

508
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,959
Speaker 2: in China. He points out that research has indicated that

509
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: diamonds may have been used to polish nephrite jade from

510
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: a very early period in Chinese history. I was looking

511
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: at the source on this. It's from Lu at all,

512
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 2: the earliest use of corundum and diamond in prehistoric China.

513
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: This is from two thousand and five the author's right quote.

514
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,239
Speaker 2: We also present physical evidence that later Langzhou actses this

515
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 2: would have been around twenty five hundred BCE. This was

516
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 2: a Neolithic jade culture quote may made from the same

517
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: previously undescribed rock whose most abundant component is corundum, where

518
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 2: were polished to a mirror like finish with a diamond abrasive.

519
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 2: Ogden points out that we have fifth century CE Chinese

520
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: writings describing diamond set finger rings worn by foreigners and

521
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: sent to China from India and in one case from Java.

522
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: Java was apparently a source for Chinese diamonds prior to

523
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: European involvement in Java during the seventeenth century. There's a

524
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: gold ring with a set diamond that was found that in

525
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy excavation of a fifth century CE Nanjing tomb. Diamonds,

526
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: of course, would have traveled on the Silk Road and

527
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: in an interesting connection of technologies again, thinking about the

528
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: Silk Road, thinking about various materials and technologies and bits

529
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: of culture traveling throughout Eurasia along these trade routes. He

530
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: points out that an Italian innovation of a crank flywheel

531
00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 2: belt driven grinding apparatus for working gymstones was seemingly based

532
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: on silk spinning technology from China and this would have

533
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: been adopted during the thirteenth century.

534
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 3: Oh interesting.

535
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, different different aims, different technological approaches

536
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 2: that end up speaking to each other across the silk road. Now,

537
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: I was also looking around some other sources. I was

538
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: looking at an older text, The Diamond, a study in

539
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: Chinese and Hellenistic Folklore, Volume fifteen, issues one through two,

540
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 2: by a German anthropologist, birtheled law for this is from

541
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: nineteen seventeen, but he was a pretty big big deal.

542
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: He pointed out in this book that there were Song

543
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 2: dynasty tellings of the Valley of Gems, that story we

544
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 2: talked about in the last episode, in which you have

545
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: your diamonds down there at the bottom of this deep

546
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 2: canyon or valley, and the only way to get them is,

547
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: of course, to throw meat down there. The meat will

548
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: stick to the diamonds, or the diamonds will stick to

549
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: the meat rather, and then giant birds will swoop down

550
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 2: in there, collect the meat and bring that meat up

551
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 2: to the surface, or they'll eat the meat, and you

552
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: have to kill the birds and then harvest the diamonds

553
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 2: from their stomachs.

554
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: And often it was said that there were monsters of

555
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 3: some kind or like venomous snakes down at the bottom

556
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: of the valley, which is a reason you can't go

557
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 3: down there and get the diamonds yourself.

558
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: Right, And so this is a very infectious story. It

559
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 2: spreads and you know, through throughout diamond cultures, and it

560
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: spreads with diamonds to other cultures, and so it's not

561
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: surprising that there are also tellings of it in Chinese traditions.

562
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: But the versions that Lafer brings up here mentions that, Okay,

563
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: in these tellings, the great eagles that feast on the

564
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: diamonds studied meat in the valley, they just eventually poop

565
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: out the diamonds, So they're not being there's no driving

566
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: them away from the meat and getting the diamonds. There's

567
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: no looking for there. There's no killing the birds and

568
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: then digging them out of their bodies. No, you just

569
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 2: have to go out to the Gobi desert because that

570
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: is where they are dropping their diamonds filled poops.

571
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 3: Wow, that seems so much simpler than having to fight

572
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: the bird and kill it. Yeah, just scour the poop fields.

573
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: You know, you're not hurting the birds, you're not stressing

574
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: them out, you're not having having to fight a giant

575
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 2: bird that's eating snakes the size of elephants, and so forth.

576
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 2: Now that this of course got me wondering, it's like, well,

577
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: why the Gobi Desert of all places? You know, I

578
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: was wanting to line up with reality at all. Sadly,

579
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: Lafer doesn't really mention the Gobi Desert at all elsewhere

580
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 2: in this particular text. Certainly some precious minerals are found

581
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: in the Gobi region, though I've not read about diamonds

582
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 2: being on that list. Perhaps they are. Perhaps I'm missing something.

583
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: It's worth stressing. As Laffer does, though, that the original

584
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 2: Song Dynasty source on this wrote that he was not

585
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: sure if the story was true or not, so it's

586
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: another case of someone passing along this story. But also

587
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: being like, I cannot vouch for this, but this is

588
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: what has been told to me.

589
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 3: I was just looking at various maps of no diamond

590
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 3: deposits and diamond mines in the world, and the Gobi

591
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 3: Desert does not appear to be a hotspot.

592
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, but again, who knows exactly how the story

593
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 2: comes together? Now Lafar also touches on the subject of

594
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 2: gemstone phosphorescence. I found this pretty interesting so tales of

595
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 2: luminous gems that these go way back. You can find

596
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: examples of this in ancient writings and medieval writings, and

597
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: apparently there is some truth to the idea some gems

598
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: glow in the dark after excitement via friction or heat,

599
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 2: and such observations could have potentially been exaggerated into some

600
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: of the some of the traditions around the world involving

601
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 2: glowing stones, and there are some versions that are apparently

602
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: unique to Chinese traditions, including tales of pearls that glow

603
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: in the dark, and even the pupils of certain female

604
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: whales described as moonlight pearls. So yeah, there would be

605
00:34:54,000 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 2: this pearl like object that glows with like a moonlight luminosity,

606
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: and you could pull it out in a dark room

607
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 2: and you would see the glow. And these were seemingly

608
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: regarded as a real thing during the fourth century CE,

609
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 2: And as the author notes, it's not entirely divorced from

610
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 2: the real world. You know, phosphorescent biology in the marine

611
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 2: world is a real thing, and it was noted by

612
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 2: ancient observers. They might not have known as much about

613
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: the undersea world as we know today, but they knew

614
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 2: that sometimes you find things that kind of glow or

615
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: outright glow in the oceanic world.

616
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you don't even necessarily have to go to

617
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 3: the deep ocean for that. That's where a lot of

618
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 3: the examples we think of are. But there are, you know,

619
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 3: masses of smaller organisms that float near the surface of

620
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 3: the water and can create bioluminescent glows or phosphorescence sometimes

621
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 3: visible just you know, in the waves.

622
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so, yeah, the idea, you know, has at least

623
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: a couple of feet on the ground here, or maybe

624
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 2: not the whole foot, but at least some toads touch

625
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 2: on the ground, and some fantasy and other aspects of

626
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 2: the telling. But yeah, other tales of whalestone state that

627
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: you could see a reflection in one at night and

628
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 2: that it had purifying qualities. And then there were also

629
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: accounts that said that they could be found in the

630
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: eyes of dolphins as well. Laford points out that other

631
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: examples of glowing items of biological origin in Chinese tradition

632
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: includes the horn of the rhino, and also it was

633
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: said that there was like a variety of will o

634
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 2: the wisp that would rise from battlefields. So after some

635
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 2: sort of terrible battle on which humans and horses have died.

636
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: It would see this glow that rises up like a mist,

637
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 2: and a variation of this would continue on into Japanese traditions,

638
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: with the idea being the other this is somehow connected

639
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 2: to the life force of the beings that perished here. However,

640
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: as Laffer discusses, there would seem to be something of

641
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: an open question as to what extent ideas about glowing

642
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: diamonds and Chinese tradition were based on observations of diamond

643
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: phosph phosphorescence, or if it was like a continuation of

644
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 2: traditions surrounding pearls and other gems, and as diamonds are

645
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 2: introduced and or diamonds are upgraded to gymstone status, they

646
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 2: take on these ideas. You know, in general, ideas of

647
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: phosphorescent diamonds may also be connected to the electrical qualities

648
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: of diamonds, which plenty of the Elder also wrote about.

649
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: So basically, when a diamond is electrified or exposed to friction,

650
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: it can pick up paper and other light substances, though

651
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: it does not become a conductor. But observations lead ancient

652
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: writers at times to champion diamonds over loadstones as just

653
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 2: magnetic powerhouses. Interestingly enough, in modern evaluation of diamonds, UV

654
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: lighting is sometimes used to judge the authenticity of diamonds,

655
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: looking for that for some sort of like a faint glow,

656
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: and evidence that a diamond is actually magnetic to any

657
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: degree or responds to a magnet is it's an indication

658
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 2: that what you have here is not one hundred percent

659
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: carbon and is therefore not a real diamond. If it

660
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: has some sort of metal content to it, well it's

661
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 2: not carbon. Interesting now, it should come as no surprise

662
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 2: that diamond is not just an earth thing. Diamond can

663
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 2: be found in meteorites, often in the form of nanodiamonds.

664
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 2: In particular, there's a hexagonal diamond as opposed to the

665
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: cubicle lattice of diamond as we've been discussing it, and

666
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: it's called Lonsdaleite. By some estimates, more than fifty percent

667
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: harder than normal or terrestrial diamonds or diamonds as we've

668
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,439
Speaker 2: been discussing them. So, this form of diamond was first

669
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 2: identified in nineteen sixty seven in the Canyon Diablo meteorite

670
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 2: in the form of nanocrystals Lonsdolite is formed when graphite

671
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 2: containing meteors strike the Earth, with the resulting heat and

672
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 2: stress transforming the graphite into this form of diamond. However,

673
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: the largest of these are merely a kron in size,

674
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: so it's not if you're imagining sort of like a

675
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 2: scene from the opening of the classic film The Blob,

676
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 2: you know, in which the perfectly round meteorite cracks open

677
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: and there's something inside it, perhaps a diamond. In this case,

678
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 2: that does not seem to be the case. These would

679
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 2: be very small, but you do have some interesting appearances

680
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 2: of this material. Lonstal light deposits were apparently discovered in

681
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 2: Tunguska and having to do with the Tunguska event, which

682
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 2: of course is a supporting evidence for the idea that

683
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: what we're talking about there is a meteorite as opposed

684
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: to a comet, and it's thought that this form of

685
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 2: diamond also forms in major planetary collisions as well.

686
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was reading about some other interesting cases of

687
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 3: probable impact diamonds that are found. You mentioned Tunguska, but

688
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 3: there's a really big impact structure in northern Siberia called

689
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 3: the Poppy Guy impact structure, which is the result of

690
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 3: a huge impact like thirty five million years ago, and

691
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 3: it is also thought to have created a lot of

692
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 3: diamonds when it struck. It's thought that the intense heat

693
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 3: and energy of the impact event essentially yeah, turned graphite

694
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 3: that was already present in the rocks in the ground

695
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: into diamonds.

696
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 2: Wow. But again we're still we're talking about nano diamonds here,

697
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: and I realize that's probably not what's going to captivate

698
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: everyone's imagination. You want to consider some serious space rocks.

699
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 2: And indeed, stories about possible giant space diamonds do periodically

700
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 2: pop up in the space news like this is the

701
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: kind of thing that I don't have specific memories of

702
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 2: this occurring, but it's the kind of thing that could

703
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,919
Speaker 2: pop up on like late night television. There's so many

704
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 2: jokes who can make about giant space diamonds, and there's

705
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 2: something about it's just an interesting reflection on how we

706
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: treat diamonds here on Earth. Again, that they're rare, they're

707
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: generally small, and the idea that there could be an

708
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: enormous one out there in space somewhere but we just

709
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 2: can't get to it. It's kind of an interesting tease though.

710
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 3: I mean, the funny thing is people think like, oh wow,

711
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 3: if we could you know, if we could just get

712
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,439
Speaker 3: this planet sized diamond back to Earth, then I'd really

713
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 3: be rich. But I don't know. Then it just seems

714
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 3: like diamonds would be worthless if there was that much

715
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 3: of them.

716
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Or like, what are we We're going to

717
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 2: bring it back to Earth and bring it into an

718
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 2: orbit around our planet, what happens next? I don't like

719
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 2: the possibilities.

720
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 3: You'd have to tightly control, like how much of it

721
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: that you mind and brought back to Earth so as

722
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 3: not to flood the market and make it worthless.

723
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, this is an interesting There is this

724
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: idea that I believe it is no longer favorite at all,

725
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,479
Speaker 2: but the idea that Jupiter in our in our own

726
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 2: solar system, the idea that it could have a core

727
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 2: that is essentially a huge diamond. And in fact, this

728
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: is the idea proposed any work of fiction by Arthur C.

729
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 2: Clark in his book twenty sixty one Odyssey three. Now

730
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 2: I haven't read Odyssey three. I've only read his first

731
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 2: book in the series, twenty and one in Space Odyssey,

732
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 2: based on his screenplay for the Stanley Kubrick movie. It's

733
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 2: my understanding, however, that this is not necessarily a trilogy

734
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 2: in the sense of other like sci fi and fantasy trilogies,

735
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 2: just kind of like it's more of a continuation of

736
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: some of the same themes, but with more futuristic events occurring.

737
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 3: Now you mentioned it is no longer favored the idea

738
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 3: that at the core of Jupiter there's a big old diamond.

739
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 3: But we did talk in our episode on the moons

740
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 3: of Uranus about the idea that the atmospheric dynamics within

741
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 3: the atmosphere of Urinus produce diamond rain all this.

742
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, the diamond rain.

743
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that it rains diamonds within within the gases of Uriness.

744
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 3: So you can go listen to those episodes if you

745
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 3: want the fuller explanation there.

746
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad you pointed that one out. Yeah, that's

747
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 2: also a great idea that I think captivates the imagination

748
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 2: because it's like that Treehouse of Horror episode where where

749
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 2: Homer freaks out because there are no doughnuts in this

750
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 2: one reality that he transfers into, and then after he leaves,

751
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 2: it turns out it actually rains donuts here that's right anyway.

752
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: In this Arthur C. Clark book, which again I haven't read.

753
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: If you have read and you want to write in

754
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 2: with more details, feel free. But basically the idea is

755
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 2: spoiler for the Second Odyssey book twenty ten. But in

756
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 2: that book, Jupiter explodes and becomes a star, and in

757
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 2: twenty sixty one it's revealed that since the core of

758
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 2: Jupiter is made of diamond, there's now a mountain made

759
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 2: of diamond on Europa. And at the time of his

760
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: writing this was apparently not entirely out of the question,

761
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: but the Galileo probe's findings gave us more insight into

762
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 2: Jupiter's composition, and this ultimately ruled out the diamond core hypothesis.

763
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: But again, don't give up hope. There's still the diamond

764
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 2: rains potentially on Urunas. And then there are some more

765
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: far flung candidates that you might consider for diamond worlds.

766
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: These are two that have definitely popped up on a

767
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 2: lot of the space news websites. I'm going to tell

768
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 2: you about a couple of them here in case you

769
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: haven't heard. The first one is a place called that's

770
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: classified is fifty five cancer e also known as Jansen.

771
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 2: This is forty one light years away in the Cancer constellation.

772
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 2: It may have lava oceans. It may have a diamond

773
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 2: core discovered in two thousand and four. We of course

774
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: don't know for sure what its composition is, but based

775
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 2: on observations and observation data, it might be a rocky,

776
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 2: high carbon world and its mass could be as much

777
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 2: as one third diamond. However, don't buy your ticket yet.

778
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 2: More information is needed. More information is required. I don't

779
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,479
Speaker 2: want you to travel all the way there and find

780
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: out that it is not a rocky world and it

781
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 2: is not one third diamond.

782
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 3: Be a real time enough at last situation to get there,

783
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 3: ready to mine the diamond, and then realize that, oh

784
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 3: it doesn't have oxygen.

785
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, another place in our universe that has also

786
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 2: popped up in these various science stories is a white

787
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 2: dwarf star classified as HD one nine four one two C.

788
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: This one's located one hundred and four light years away,

789
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: and scientists have theorized that it could be in the

790
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 2: process of cooling and crystallizing into a giant diamond. WHOA

791
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 2: All right, you know it sounds promising. However, big caveat

792
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 2: here This process is thought to take somewhere on the

793
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 2: order of one quadrillion years, which would mean that this

794
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 2: particular white dwarf, along with oh, I don't know, all

795
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 2: other stars, is simply not old enough to have transformed yet.

796
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 2: And I think it's going to be a hell of

797
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: a waiting game if you show up there anticipating the

798
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: possibility that it's going to turn into a big diamond.

799
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 2: But I love these ideas of like giant space diamonds,

800
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 2: and especially in this latter case, out of reach in

801
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,800
Speaker 2: both time and space. I mean, Beker's anything on the

802
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: measure of light years away is out of reach in

803
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: both time and space to us. But especially the idea

804
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: of HD one nine oh four one two C because

805
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 2: it's if it does become a diamond, it's going to

806
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 2: become a diamond so far into the future that it's

807
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 2: basically a dream.

808
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 3: Maybe that's where the diamond punk technology regime actually arises.

809
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about it a little bit

810
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 2: when you were talking about diamonds as fuel, Like if

811
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 2: you had some sort of diamond world, or it doesn't

812
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 2: even have to be a diamond world, just we could

813
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 2: borrow from Arthur C. Clark and just imagine a scenario

814
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 2: where you have an enormous mass of diamond on some world,

815
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 2: some moon, some war that was ejected from some sort

816
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: of diamond core scenario. If that, and if it provided

817
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: diamond in enough quantity, then perhaps you could use that

818
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 2: to prop up your idea of a diamond furnace that

819
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 2: powers something. I mean, maybe it ends up taking on

820
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 2: religious connotations because the I mean, the idea of a

821
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 2: furnace that burns entirely on diamond, even if it's not

822
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: practical from an energy standpoint, maybe there is something kind

823
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 2: of like spiritually attractive about that. Again, assuming the culture

824
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: that's powering the furnace sees diamond as something that is

825
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: special and beautiful and holy and not just something to

826
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 2: be used to work other gemstones or to fire up

827
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 2: a furnace.

828
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 3: Well, should we blast off from the diamond planet for today?

829
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 2: I believe so. But don't worry. We'll be back with

830
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: another core episode on Thursday, because Tuesdays and Thursdays that's

831
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: when we have core episodes of stuff to blow your mind.

832
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 2: We're primarily a science podcast, though we set aside most

833
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: serious concerns to just talk about a weird film. On

834
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema. On Mondays we do listener mail and

835
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: on Wednesdays we do a short form episode. Let's see

836
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 2: what else to stress here. Hey, if you haven't rted

837
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: and reviewed the show before wherever you get the podcast,

838
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839
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,239
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840
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,920
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841
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842
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843
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844
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845
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846
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: your Mind.

847
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:41,000
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848
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:42,799
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849
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

850
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

851
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,640
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852
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:59,920
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853
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,840
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