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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if.

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Speaker 2: You've had experience with manipulation or abusive power that you'd

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Speaker 2: like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Shoot us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, trust for trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 1: I've never lived.

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Speaker 2: To you, if you think that one person has all

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Speaker 2: the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults,

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Speaker 2: extreme belief and manipulation from two Rays of Sunshine who've

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Speaker 2: actually experienced it. I am Lo Lablanc Ray of Sunshine,

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Speaker 2: and I.

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Speaker 1: Am Megan Elizabeth Ray of Sunshine.

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Speaker 2: I guess let's go with that. I mean you are

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Speaker 2: to me.

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Speaker 1: No one has called me a ray of Sunshine in

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Speaker 1: the past year, I don't think.

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Speaker 2: But that's okay. Listen, you sometimes rain also, But why

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Speaker 2: Ray of Sunshine doesn't write saying not just science oh

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Speaker 2: so true? Today our guest is Sari Crawford. She's the

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Speaker 2: host of the podcast The Sunshine Place, which covers Synanon,

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Speaker 2: a notorious drug rehabilitation program turned cult that was active

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Speaker 2: from the fifties through the seventies, which we also covered

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Speaker 2: in our episode with Michael jo Lay from the airborne

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Speaker 2: toxic event. You can go ahead and listen to that

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Speaker 2: episode if you want to hear his story. But for now,

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Speaker 2: Sarah's going to tell us about how her own father

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Speaker 2: was a musician who was an early member of Synanon

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Speaker 2: and held a leadership position. She'll walk us through the

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Speaker 2: history of the group, how it was started by a

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Speaker 2: man named Charles Dieterrich or Chuck and originally actually did

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Speaker 2: a lot of good on Tayla didn't, and we'll talk

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Speaker 2: about what some of the practices were, including something called

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Speaker 2: the Game, which involved disclosing one's personal traumas in front

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Speaker 2: of the group.

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Speaker 1: We'll also discuss something called the Trip, the rules about

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Speaker 1: violence and how they changed, and how the practices became

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Speaker 1: much darker after Chuck's wife died, plus how Sarah's father

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Speaker 1: finally left, and how Synanon has impacted her in her

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Speaker 1: own life.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that's what we're talking about before we talk

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Speaker 2: about it. Why A'm not covering my mouth before we

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Speaker 2: talk about it? Megan, what is your cultiust thing of

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Speaker 2: this week.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know I'm following Danny Masterson or however the

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Speaker 1: fuck you say his last name?

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Speaker 2: Let's look at it. Do I know the Masterson?

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Speaker 1: You know the science Yeah, that's right, the scientologist guy

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Speaker 1: from that seventies show. He asked yesterday for his trial

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Speaker 1: to be postponed because the two people running for mayor

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Speaker 1: right now, their names are Rick and Karen. Rick released

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Speaker 1: a mayor ad that made it look like Karen supported Scientology,

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Speaker 1: and then Karen released an ad that was like, of

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Speaker 1: course I don't support scientology. Who would report support scientology?

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Speaker 1: It's insane. And then Danny's lawyer was like, this is

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Speaker 1: violating my client's rights because everybody's going to be so

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Speaker 1: prejudiced against Scientology that he's not going to get a

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Speaker 1: fair trial, and we.

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Speaker 2: Need to move it.

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Speaker 1: Wow, from October eleventh to November eighth. Today the judge said, no,

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Speaker 1: we will not be doing that. We are going to

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Speaker 1: start and she said that Scientology evidently was relevant because

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Speaker 1: it was important to the credibility of the three accusers

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Speaker 1: and why they didn't come forward sooner.

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Speaker 2: They accused him of sexual assault for context, right, that's

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Speaker 2: these are rape allegations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, apologies, I feel like everybody's following it as close

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Speaker 1: as I am. They're not. And she also said there

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Speaker 1: is no basis to consider that scientology evidence is so

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Speaker 1: inflammatory that no jury could reach an impartial verdict.

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Speaker 2: So he's up. I just want to point out how

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Speaker 2: you said Rick and Karen like it's a cute TV show.

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Speaker 1: Rick and Karen.

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Speaker 2: You know Rick and care Rick Caruso and Karen Bass. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Rickcrusa is the billionaire that everyone, all the cool kids

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Speaker 2: in LA hate, and Karen Bass is the alternative candidate

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Speaker 2: who apparently is better. Yay, clearly I've done my research, No,

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Speaker 2: I have. I like her, I like her, I do well.

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Speaker 1: I'm on a first name basis, so yeah, I'm good.

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Speaker 2: Listen, we're trying to avoid anti abortion billionaires' that's what

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Speaker 2: we're trying to do. So oh, good news. Good news

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Speaker 2: that he doesn't get to use that as an excuse. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: to have his trial postponed.

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Speaker 1: Let's start this trial. He has been fucking around with

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Speaker 1: it for so long. I am ready for him to.

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Speaker 2: Face the music. Let's see what happens. He's one of

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Speaker 2: these guys who you who like everyone kind of knew

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Speaker 2: about for a long time and didn't really ever nothing

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Speaker 2: ever really happened until recently.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody would just be stay away from him, and

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Speaker 1: you'd be like, oh, okay.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy that they're still handful of people like that.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna come out about I'm not gonna name

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Speaker 2: him here, but we all know, I know, we all

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Speaker 2: know in La moved to La Get get the first

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Speaker 2: scoop the Ladies Whisper Network.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, what about you? What's the cultiest thing that

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Speaker 1: happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: I feel really dumb because this is a historical thing

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Speaker 2: that I actually really didn't know anything about. So clearly

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Speaker 2: I have an interest in historical events because there are

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Speaker 2: so many interesting ones, including some that we cover here.

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Speaker 2: But history was my absolute worst subject in school because

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Speaker 2: I think I just had shitty teachers and I don't

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Speaker 2: know anything. So I'm going to preface this by saying that.

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Speaker 2: So I started reading the book The Three Body Problem.

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Speaker 2: Do you know about this book? No, it's a science

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Speaker 2: fiction series and it's incredible and they're now making a

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Speaker 2: Netflix series about it, but it's currently only in book

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Speaker 2: form and it explores the cultural revolution in China. Which

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Speaker 2: took place in the sixties and seventies. Yeah, sixties and seventies,

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Speaker 2: about ten years. And holy shit, Megan, do you know

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Speaker 2: anything about this? No, I have no idea, Like, okay,

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Speaker 2: So I knew that there was like the Red Scare,

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Speaker 2: and I knew that Mao Zedong was a person who

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Speaker 2: was relevant, and maybe there was some bad stuff. I

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Speaker 2: didn't know anything about this. I'm just gonna read from

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Speaker 2: Wikipedia and feel free to correct me if any of

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Speaker 2: this is not historically accurate. But this is the general

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Speaker 2: gist of what I have read so far. So its

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Speaker 2: stated goal was to preserve Chinese communism by purging remnants

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Speaker 2: of capitalists and traditional elements from Chinese society and to

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Speaker 2: reimpose Mao Zadong thought as the dominant ideology. So what happened.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not going to be able to like

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Speaker 2: get into the whole thing right now. It's so complicated,

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Speaker 2: and every region kind of experienced a different thing. But

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Speaker 2: it turned into there were all of these massacres that occurred.

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Speaker 2: There was this really really strong like anti elitist sentiment,

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Speaker 2: which in theory, you're like, yeah, sounds great, we don't

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Speaker 2: like leitis, But it was.

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Speaker 1: Like French revolutionary type shit.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there were massacres. There were mass humiliations. People would

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Speaker 2: be found to be quote counter revolutionary and would just

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Speaker 2: commit suicide because it was so terrifying what they would

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Speaker 2: do to you what certain you know, depending on where

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Speaker 2: you were. Teachers were sent to labor camps. Students were

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Speaker 2: like outing their teachers like some which trial shit, like

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Speaker 2: children were doing it to their parents. There was like

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Speaker 2: I guess, like a heavy, very strong student faction of

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Speaker 2: this that you know, young people whatever would like get

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Speaker 2: into causes, and this just like happened to be this

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Speaker 2: cause that people got into. There was even a region

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Speaker 2: in which I'm gonna say it wrong, but it looks

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Speaker 2: like guang Chi. There was a region in which mass

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Speaker 2: cannibalism took place, not out of starvation, just out of

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Speaker 2: like you know, kind of making an example of people

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Speaker 2: and like a political thing, absolutely terrifying. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: that is the biggest cult I can I can think of.

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Speaker 2: It says there were clashes between people. There wasn't just

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Speaker 2: like you know, I think it was the dynamics were

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Speaker 2: extremely complicated, but schools were closed. Death toll claims very

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Speaker 2: widely with estimates of those perishing during the revolution, ranging

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Speaker 2: from hundreds of thousands to millions. Millions were accused of

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Speaker 2: being members of the five Black categories, which were landlords,

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Speaker 2: rich farmers, counter revolutionaries, which anyone basically could be accused

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Speaker 2: of being a counter revolutionary if they weren't adhering really

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Speaker 2: really strictly to whatever the ideology was. Bad influencers, which

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Speaker 2: again could be anything, and right wingers and academics and

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Speaker 2: intellectuals again according to this Wikipedia article, but there are

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Speaker 2: some citations here were regarded as the stinking Old ninth

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Speaker 2: and were widely persecuted. Anyway, The three Body Problem opens

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Speaker 2: with kind of a scene from this era which is

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Speaker 2: just like absolutely fucking devastating, and I was reading it

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Speaker 2: and I was like, wow, this is insane. And then

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Speaker 2: I noticed that there were footnotes about history, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, wait, did this actually have I didn't know

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Speaker 2: that this actually happened. I feel like I am displaying

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Speaker 2: my ignorance and probably saying something offensive, and again I

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Speaker 2: apologize if I am, but this shit is this was

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Speaker 2: in the sixties and seventies, like, this was not that

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Speaker 2: long ago. So it's really really interesting, especially because, like

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Speaker 2: you know, in theory capitalism. Yeah, bad thing. We don't

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Speaker 2: want capitalism, but like, it just goes to show any

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Speaker 2: ideology that you have can be taken to the extreme

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Speaker 2: and become so so so dangerous and scary. Anyway, all

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Speaker 2: of this is to say, I would really love to

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Speaker 2: have some like historical expert on to talk about this,

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Speaker 2: because you know, I obviously want to get a more

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Speaker 2: thorough informed perspective on this like era of history. But

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Speaker 2: it's it's absolutely fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Send us an email to trust me, pat it Gmail,

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Speaker 1: if you know an expert.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll be diving deeper into that very soon. Sodreful,

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Speaker 2: stay in the lookout and in the meantime, let us

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Speaker 2: talk to Sari. Welcome Sarry Crawford to trust Me. Hey,

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Speaker 2: thanks for having me, Thank you for being here. You

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Speaker 2: host a podcast that's out right now called The Sunshine Place,

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Speaker 2: which is about sin and on a drug rehabilitation cult

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Speaker 2: that existed from the fifties into the seventies. This podcast

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Speaker 2: is so good. I've only listened to a few episodes,

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Speaker 2: but there's so much interesting audio. There's so many different

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Speaker 2: people who are a part of it. It gets into

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Speaker 2: the nitty gritty of the cult in such a detailed,

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Speaker 2: fascinating way that I really hadn't heard before you host

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Speaker 2: it because your father was not only a member but

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Speaker 2: also a leader in sonan On, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he was one of the original twelve actually, so

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Speaker 3: he was there for the first twenty years of this existence.

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Speaker 3: So he put a lot of blood, sweat and tears

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Speaker 3: and for that place.

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Speaker 2: So can you tell us about sort of the origins

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Speaker 2: of synan On and who Chuck was?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, great question. So it started out as Chuck, you know,

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Speaker 3: being an alcoholic and looking for solutions for himself any

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Speaker 3: people like himself that didn't end in jail or guest

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Speaker 3: or the alternatives that they had at the time for

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Speaker 3: alcoholics and drug addicts. So he kind of created a

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Speaker 3: little group in his apartment and he was on unemployment,

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Speaker 3: and you know, my dad kind of joined that little group,

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Speaker 3: and then they started getting facilities and things like that

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Speaker 3: and building it up to what it was a multimillion

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Speaker 3: dollar rehab industry, and it really pioneered rehabilitation and therapy

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Speaker 3: for drug addicts when there weren't any other options.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was known kind of worldwide, Like every

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Speaker 2: time I read about syn and On I find these

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Speaker 2: like old articles talking about how I mean, you just

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Speaker 2: had the word pioneering, So the word pioneering is in

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Speaker 2: my head. I can't think of another one, but pioneering.

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Speaker 2: This program was and how just like exciting and interesting,

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Speaker 2: and it was known as a therapeutic tool. It was

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Speaker 2: touted because it had the really high rate of curing

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Speaker 2: addiction as opposed to the other programs that were out there,

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Speaker 2: So it was offering what, at least at the time

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Speaker 2: appeared to be genuine benefits.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, you know, the game, which turned into what's

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Speaker 3: now called at tech therapy, was actually pretty therapy if

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Speaker 3: you could air out anything really except for dress of violence.

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Speaker 3: That really was sort of based directly off the twelve

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Speaker 3: step program and kind of helped morph with AA and

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Speaker 3: NAR today.

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Speaker 1: So Chuck was an AA, correct and then he started

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Speaker 1: this after Yes.

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Speaker 3: He went to some meetings of what was sort of

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Speaker 3: the experimental start of AA and then took a lot

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Speaker 3: of those principles and created cinnamons and sort of went

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Speaker 3: off of that.

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Speaker 2: So how did your dad get involved exactly? Was did

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Speaker 2: Chuck just have this like little tiny group and your

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Speaker 2: dad met him and liked him, Like do you know

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Speaker 2: how it all kind of began with him.

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Speaker 3: So my understanding is that, you know, my dad was

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Speaker 3: a jazz musician and got into heroin and he went

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Speaker 3: to LA to try to make it as a jazz musician,

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Speaker 3: and the heroin addiction got really bad. His first wife

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Speaker 3: he introduced the heroin and she actually overdosed and passed away.

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Speaker 3: And that's the mother of his son. So he was,

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Speaker 3: you know, he carried a lot of guilt and he

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Speaker 3: knew he had something. You know, he had two small

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Speaker 3: boys and they had to fix his life. So I

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Speaker 3: think he just was searching for a place where he

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Speaker 3: could belong and better himself and get clean and sober.

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Speaker 3: And at that time, there really wasn't a lot of

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Speaker 3: halfway houses and things like that, sober living facilities, and

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Speaker 3: Chuck really ran with AA and created a way to

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Speaker 3: soberly live with him in that apartment. From there, they

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Speaker 3: wanted to open it up. So that's how he kind

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Speaker 3: of entered in with Chuck.

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Speaker 2: That is the worst rock bottom ever. Your wife who

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Speaker 2: you introduced to the drug dies, That's horrible. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine how rough that was for him. So

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Speaker 2: over time, this group kind of grows, he becomes super famous.

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Speaker 2: Celebrities join right like, because it's like in La, it's

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Speaker 2: like in Santa Monica. So are there famous people involved?

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Speaker 2: Can you remind me?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So it wasn't right away, but as time went

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Speaker 3: on and they started getting locations, they started throwing what

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Speaker 3: we're called Saturday night parties, and they were sober parties,

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Speaker 3: but they were pretty much open to everyone, and it

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Speaker 3: was a waste to not only get donors to come

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Speaker 3: so that people understood what was going on in the

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Speaker 3: community and getting involved. And at this time they hadn't

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Speaker 3: quite opened up to lifestylars yet, but they would soon.

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Speaker 3: And during the Saturday night parties, the field ball came,

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Speaker 3: Frank Sinatra came. So many celebrities came, some of them donated,

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Speaker 3: some of them got involved, and some of them stayed.

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Speaker 3: Like Leonard Gloy actually taught acting classes at the Sanamarca location.

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Speaker 2: Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, crazy, I mean shit,

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Speaker 2: I'd go yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. From what I'm reading, it's like the first time

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Speaker 1: people had hope really addicts was this community that's so interesting? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course, it was like a cultural explosion in LA.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, and it's interesting your dad. It was a

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Speaker 2: jazz musician doing haro. I feel like that was such

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Speaker 2: a specific culture at that time, and there wouldn't be

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Speaker 2: a lot of options for rehab yet that were effective anyway.

291
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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: So what are some of the in the beginning at least?

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Speaker 2: Obviously this thing evolves over time and gets darker. But

294
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Speaker 2: what are some of the like original like beliefs and practices.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question. I wish I was there back

296
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Speaker 3: then because it would have been wild to be there

297
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Speaker 3: in the sixties, right, But you know, the principles were

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Speaker 3: really just two rules, you know, no violence and no

299
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Speaker 3: threat to violence of any kind at all period and

300
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Speaker 3: no drugs or alcohol of course, And those really were

301
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Speaker 3: the only two rules, and that was you know, the

302
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Speaker 3: culture there. Later on they started adding things like the

303
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Speaker 3: cinnamon prayer and whatnot, but for a good almost fifteen years,

304
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Speaker 3: those were really the only principles of living there.

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Speaker 2: But people are living together on like a compound. Can

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Speaker 2: you kind of describe what the like actual phys vitality

307
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Speaker 2: of it is?

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Speaker 3: Great questions. There were separate facilities, one in San Francisco,

309
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Speaker 3: one was a ranch in Tamalla's Bay, So there was

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Speaker 3: different types of living based on kind of what job

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Speaker 3: you had in the community. But I've actually visited the

312
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Speaker 3: Santa Monica location. It's now the del Mar Hotel. It's

313
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Speaker 3: set up like a hotel and they bought it that way.

314
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Speaker 3: It was like a club. You know, imagine living in

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Speaker 3: a big hotel and everybody kind of got a room.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't co ed, so if you had a husband

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Speaker 3: or a partner or someone you were dating that actually

318
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Speaker 3: had separate rooms you could rent out to you know,

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Speaker 3: be with your partner and have those visits conjugal visits.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

321
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Speaker 3: But yeah, it was like living in a big hotel.

322
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Speaker 3: But they had you know, different floors, they had classrooms,

323
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Speaker 3: they had mess halls, things like that, and it was

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Speaker 3: kind of a wonderful place. And then in the main room.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's funny story because this kind of sums

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Speaker 3: up centing on very well. But they would get donated

327
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Speaker 3: furniture because everything was donations, right, And when you walked

328
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Speaker 3: in there was big rooms, right, and this was that

329
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Speaker 3: seawall and Santa Monica as well, and inside was all

330
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Speaker 3: mismatch furniture, right, And that was because everything was donated.

331
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Speaker 3: So you'd had this great haul with just people smoking

332
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Speaker 3: and chatting and all the different mismatch furniture, right, but

333
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Speaker 3: somehow came together as one and that's really representative of Spin,

334
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Speaker 3: not all these different people that came together and learned

335
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Speaker 3: to live as one.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that sounds really funwesome. Yeah, yeah, I want to go.

337
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,760
Speaker 2: It sounds like Malroe's plays with sober people. I've been

338
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Speaker 2: telling my boyfriend how badly how much I wish I

339
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Speaker 2: had had the experience of like summer camp as a kid,

340
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Speaker 2: and how much I wish there was summer camp for adults,

341
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Speaker 2: or just like any kind of communal living, but where

342
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Speaker 2: we're doing activities and that's like in the city, so

343
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Speaker 2: it's not too remove. So that just sounds like a

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Speaker 2: thing that I would definitely be into, even as someone

345
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Speaker 2: who is not an addict. So, okay, can you talk

346
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Speaker 2: to us about the game a little bit more?

347
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Speaker 3: Yeah?

348
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Speaker 1: What is it? Why? Why? So?

349
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Speaker 3: The game to my understanding, now, this is a very complicated, living,

350
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,560
Speaker 3: breathing sort of organism you have to understand. But what

351
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,440
Speaker 3: it started out was, you know, group therapy, a way

352
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Speaker 3: to air any and all of your grievances with others

353
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Speaker 3: in the community, so you could learn how to live

354
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Speaker 3: together and get along together, but also you know, you know,

355
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Speaker 3: talk about why you're an addict, sort of like AA,

356
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Speaker 3: but more in depth, right, and it more often something

357
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Speaker 3: more intense. Then it turned into what we would call

358
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Speaker 3: today more attack therapy or tough love. It wasn't all

359
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,640
Speaker 3: like that, but it really became pretty wild when you could,

360
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Speaker 3: like I said, without violence or threats of violence, you

361
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,600
Speaker 3: could say anything to anybody and they would actually broadcast

362
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Speaker 3: it over their version of the radio, which is called

363
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,160
Speaker 3: the Wire, and it would be like, you know, ESCN,

364
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,440
Speaker 3: like what are we going to do today? It's Chuck

365
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,240
Speaker 3: versus Bill Crawford, and they would anticipate who was going

366
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,840
Speaker 3: to say what to whom, and you know what I mean,

367
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,000
Speaker 3: it'd be this big thing and people would tune in

368
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:05,960
Speaker 3: and you could hear it. You know, you could be

369
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Speaker 3: in San Francisco and listen to a game in Santa

370
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Speaker 3: Monica and vice versa. So it really worked into this

371
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 3: crazy thing. And then, as you know, violence became part

372
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Speaker 3: of the community, things got more intense in the game.

373
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Speaker 3: It started being several days at a time. Sometimes that

374
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,159
Speaker 3: would be how they would break you. You'd go seventy

375
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Speaker 3: two hours locked in a room, no sleep, very little food.

376
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Speaker 3: Maybe you got two hours here and there asleep, but

377
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Speaker 3: not enough to function. And you would take a very

378
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 3: hard addict, right and you would break them in a

379
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 3: way that you would tell his story and then all

380
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,359
Speaker 3: of a sudden he belonged to the community and the

381
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,960
Speaker 3: community accepted him. Unfortunately, some of that would turn against

382
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,600
Speaker 3: these people later on, but it really, Chuck sat is

383
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 3: the only way to get into some of these very

384
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,840
Speaker 3: hard and criminals. You know that if you even committed murder,

385
00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,199
Speaker 3: and how do you get through somebody like that? So

386
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 3: that was the purpose of the game.

387
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,400
Speaker 2: Interesting, So I mean, first of all, classic page out

388
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 2: of the cult playbook, which is have people divulge things

389
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,800
Speaker 2: to the group and then use it against them later

390
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 2: and humiliate them in front of everyone. Like these are

391
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 2: just like age old tactics. But I've never heard of

392
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,560
Speaker 2: like taking a criminal or an addict who you know

393
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 2: needs to be broken down for their own good allegedly

394
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Speaker 2: and using that as kind of the way to get

395
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Speaker 2: them to open up. It's like, I get the logic

396
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 2: of it in theory, but of course that ends up

397
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 2: being incredibly abusive and like essentially torture, psychological torture.

398
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Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like it worked for a minute

399
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Speaker 1: and then it just all went too far.

400
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Speaker 3: Interestingly exactly, That's the way I would put it, because

401
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 3: you know, many people would tell it, you you know,

402
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 3: save their lives, and I don't think they would say

403
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 3: that lightly. You know, the first time in their life

404
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,200
Speaker 3: they had an opportunity to really break down the deep

405
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 3: parts of them and what they've done wrong and be

406
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,439
Speaker 3: in a community at the time in the beginning that

407
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 3: would you know, you could say, there are you know,

408
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 3: hospitals and programs out there that do a similar thing.

409
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Speaker 2: Today I was reading about how they would do like

410
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 2: role playing in terms of like, you know, my dad

411
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 2: abused me as a kid, so we're going to role

412
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 2: play that Chuck is my dad or whatever and then

413
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 2: say the things to say to him. Which is super

414
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 2: interesting because like when you read The Body Keeps a Score,

415
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 2: one of the things that they talk about, about, you know,

416
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,360
Speaker 2: overcoming trauma as one of the possible tools is role

417
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 2: playing the figures from your childhood. Like, so there are

418
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 2: these really interesting ideas here that like could be useful

419
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 2: for people.

420
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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, and he did pioneer that in a way.

421
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 3: But you know, in a very intense way. Because let's

422
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 3: say an attic came in and Chuck was really big

423
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 3: about you know, at a his complex and things like that,

424
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,159
Speaker 3: and you know, say you're here because you know your

425
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,919
Speaker 3: dad molested you or something, right, and he would be

426
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 3: their dad and play their dad, but sometimes in a

427
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 3: very violating way, like you know, I'm here on the

428
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,719
Speaker 3: less use. And for some people that was exactly what

429
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 3: they needed. You know, nobody had ever made them talk

430
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 3: about it and made them confront their abuser, and Chuck

431
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 3: allowed them to do that. But for others, you know,

432
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 3: who weren't ready to do that, it was it was

433
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,479
Speaker 3: more traumatic. So you get a sort of a mixed

434
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 3: bag in people that will tell you that it helped

435
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 3: and people that will tell you that it wasn't for them.

436
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 2: Well, right, it makes sense. Like any program, if you're

437
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 2: using a one size fits all approach, you're gonna have

438
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 2: people who end up not being the right thing for

439
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 2: and potentially re traumatized. But especially when it's when there's

440
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 2: a leader who starts getting drunk on his power. So

441
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 2: this is the thing that I find that I was

442
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 2: maybe the most fascinated about learning this time, which is

443
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 2: the trip, and I would love to hear a little

444
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: bit more about what the trip was. I love that

445
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 2: all of these sound like movies. By the way, we

446
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: have the game, we have the trip. Yeah, the thought.

447
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 3: So interestingly enough, here's where my dad comes in, because

448
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 3: my dad really pioneered the trip. And my dad was saying,

449
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 3: when need to get out, when you get away, we

450
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 3: need to do team building, just like you would in

451
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 3: any other situation. We need to come together, right, And

452
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 3: the trip was a way for people to get out

453
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 3: of the community, get out of themselves, see something new,

454
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 3: be somewhere new, and they would have like special games

455
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 3: on the trip and things like that, but it really

456
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 3: was that team building. They'd go skiing and they learn

457
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,959
Speaker 3: how to work together. And you could say that very

458
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 3: much is a pillar in rehabilitation now and just you know,

459
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 3: in any kind of communal society. But he really put

460
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 3: it together all those trips and kind of set them up.

461
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 3: And you'd also have like cross location trips, so someone

462
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: in San Francisco could sign up and they would fly

463
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 3: them down to Santa Monica and then bust them into

464
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 3: the facility and then you would meet new people and

465
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 3: have new exciting games because he would be in a

466
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,199
Speaker 3: new environment, but everybody knew the rules because it was

467
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 3: still silling on.

468
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: And he would talk about peak experiences. I guess he

469
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: had had a very important for him, a peak experience

470
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: on LSD, and now in this sort of drug free

471
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: initially environment, he wanted to recreate that peak experience but

472
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: without the drugs. Right, So it became this like very ritualistic,

473
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: like spiritual, imversive thing that people would do to kind

474
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 2: of generate that heightened experience. Do you remember some of

475
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:36,719
Speaker 2: the details of that.

476
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: So, yeah, So, as we know now, a lot of

477
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 3: addicts sometimes will look place one addiction with another because

478
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 3: you're always searching for the next high, right, You're always

479
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 3: trying to search for you know, they say your first high,

480
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 3: Chuck's peak experience with LC that was one of the

481
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,719
Speaker 3: first times he took LSC, and he was searching for

482
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 3: that kind of feeling again, So all of these rituals

483
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 3: and you know, sleep deprivation things like that, we're trying

484
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 3: to get your brain to have this almost like a high,

485
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 3: but being sober clean. And so he was always searching

486
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,959
Speaker 3: for the way to do that and adding things, and

487
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 3: as lifestylars came on, you know they liked it too,

488
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 3: because you know, they had never done drugs, but they

489
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 3: were experiencing their own high. You know, we've got endorsed

490
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 3: and you know, running around to olpamine, running around, And

491
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 3: that really was the idea of the peak experience, having

492
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 3: like the witching hour at midnight, waking people up and

493
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 3: getting them in ritual. There's something psychological about it. It

494
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 3: really makes you feel a part of something, and that's

495
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 3: what he was after.

496
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, creating a heightened emotional experience is such a

497
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: smart way to kind of bond people to your group

498
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: and make them want to keep returning because that's such

499
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 2: an exciting feeling and it feels like there is something

500
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 2: genuinely spiritual going on, even if it is just like

501
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 2: in some groups it's hours of meditation on end and

502
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 2: in some groups it's an intensive whatever staring at something.

503
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: Someone shines a flashlight on your eyes and you think

504
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,479
Speaker 2: it's as you think it's got whatever it is, like,

505
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: it tends to be like that heightened thing really keeps

506
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 2: people feeling like the group is this meaningful, powerful, spiritual

507
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 2: thing for them. So was your data leader just kind

508
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: of by default because he was there for so long,

509
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: I would say so.

510
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 3: I mean a lot of people looked up to him.

511
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 3: He was never one to want to be a leader.

512
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 3: He never was that kind of person. But he was

513
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 3: given a task to do and he did it well.

514
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 3: He was very literate, he was college educated, you know,

515
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 3: he wasn't your typical heroin addicts, you know, and he

516
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 3: got funding, you know, he did all sorts of things.

517
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: And my understanding is that he pretty much was mostly

518
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 3: universally loved andy On because you know, he's a laid

519
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 3: back guy. I remember him being a laid back guy.

520
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 3: But yeah, I would consider him a leader. I don't

521
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 3: think Synanon would have been able to get its funding

522
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 3: and a lot of the programs that it did without him,

523
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 3: And people did recognize that. And Chuck needed him in

524
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 3: a circle for a long time because he was so

525
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 3: intelligent in what he did. And Chuck was a smart guy,

526
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: but he was He was the bronze of the operation

527
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 3: and my dad was sort of behind the scenes and

528
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 3: he was the brains of the operation.

529
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 2: So at what point does the rule about nonviolence change?

530
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 3: So that was a gradual change around nineteen seventy six.

531
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: It started into nineteen seventy seven and the peak of

532
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 3: it really got into nineteen seventy eight. You know, that

533
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 3: was the peak of the violence. But it wasn't like

534
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 3: an overnight thing. You know, everybody says, oh, it's a cult.

535
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: I would never do that, but you don't know it,

536
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 3: you're in it. It's you know, like the frog in

537
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 3: the pot. As you increase the temperature very slowly and

538
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 3: then the frog doesn't feel how hot it gets, then

539
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 3: he dies. But yeah, it was the first Chuck would

540
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 3: stay over the wire. He would just experiment. You know,

541
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 3: what do you guys think about? So and so you

542
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 3: get knocked around? You know, started with the kids, you know,

543
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: knock them on their ask if they complained, and started

544
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 3: with the kids. And as the kids got knocked around,

545
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 3: you know, the adults started saying, well, we could use

546
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 3: that for some of our participants, you know, and it

547
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 3: just it slowly snowballs.

548
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: So over time, Chuck starts getting more into this idea

549
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 2: of violence. So there's a group called the Imperial Marines.

550
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: Can you talk about what they were?

551
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 3: So my understanding of the Imperial Marines was that it

552
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 3: started because Chuck really felt like the community needed protection.

553
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 3: You know, you're talking about a group of addicts. He

554
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 3: felt like, if something happened to them, who is he

555
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 3: going to call? I mean, there were sheriffs in his pockets,

556
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 3: but he needs to protect his own and nobody was

557
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 3: going to care about a bunch of atticts if people

558
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 3: were violating them. And then as people started trying to

559
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 3: get their kids out of the community and things like that,

560
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 3: Chuck got more and more paranoid. So the Imperial Marines

561
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 3: would train as sort of security, and then as time

562
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 3: went on, became more offensive. And then he started, you know,

563
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 3: as Chuck started drinking again, you know, would say, okay,

564
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 3: you know, well, if somebody comes to sit it on

565
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 3: and you know, beat him up so they don't come back,

566
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 3: you know, send them a message. And the Imperial Marines

567
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 3: changed from security to really carrying out a lot of

568
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: Chuck's fitting. And Chuck never said go break so and

569
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: so's legs, you know, but he would say, so and

570
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 3: so is really getting out of line such a shame,

571
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 3: or if this person's coming on our property, I can't

572
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 3: stand it so much. Should be teaching him a lesson.

573
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 3: And that was very much for the Imperial Marines to

574
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 3: go carry out his bidding.

575
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: Basically, they start threatening people. They're kind of getting a

576
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: little bit more violent. You know, this trajectory is again

577
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: very classic, where it's like guy starts a group, he

578
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: starts loving having all of these followers and loving this power.

579
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 2: People start getting a little bit wary of the group,

580
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: some people start leaving, some people start saying it's a cult.

581
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: He starts jealously guarding his power, and then that's when

582
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 2: things typically, once that paranoia begins, that's when things typically

583
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: tend to start getting a little bit more violent. Yeah,

584
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: and in this case, yeah, he totally follows that once

585
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: again follows that playbook to a tea. So, after Chuck's

586
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: wife dies, he gets a new partner, and can you

587
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: tell us what happened after that great question?

588
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: Well, things went to shit. To say it bluntly, but yeah,

589
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 3: you know he was depressed. Betty. You know, my mom

590
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 3: talks about Betty, how she was. You know, his wife,

591
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 3: Betty was such a lightning on. She really balanced Chuck

592
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 3: from my understanding, and she and she helped keep him

593
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 3: sober in the sense that she stayed sober with him.

594
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 3: She encouraged him to keep going, encouraged him to be sober,

595
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 3: to be present, to take care of his flock, so

596
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 3: to speak. If you would get out line or something,

597
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 3: she'd kind of call them down. And she really was

598
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 3: the Yang. She was Yang. And when she died, and

599
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 3: in such a horrible way, to watch her suffer and die,

600
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 3: Chuck felt like, well, if he couldn't be with his

601
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: loved one, almost nobody could. Of course, did in frame

602
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 3: it that way, but he really wanted in the back

603
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 3: of his mind for people to kind of feel the

604
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 3: pain he was in, and you know, started experimenting with

605
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 3: these relationships. But Betty was wonderful. She really was sinning

606
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 3: on even though Chucky Drick had sent it on. She

607
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 3: really was behind the scenes for many years as a

608
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 3: pillar of what Synanon used to be.

609
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: Was that kind of the turning point when things started

610
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 2: to get dark or was it? Did it start before that?

611
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: Yes? Absolutely, I would say almost everybody in the community

612
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: that I have spoken with will say that Betty's death

613
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 3: directly affected Chuck's sobriety, which then directly affected the community,

614
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 3: because it's like an attict leading an attict, you know,

615
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 3: And as soon as she died, he started drinking again.

616
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: And how is he going to tell all these addicts

617
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 3: that are looking for sobriety, how to live if he

618
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 3: can't see sober, and the community totally changed. There's a

619
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 3: poem I believe it was called the Hangman, and it's like,

620
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 3: you know, they came from my neighbor, I said nothing,

621
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 3: They came from my friend. I said nothing. Then they

622
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 3: came for me and nobody said anything. There was nobody

623
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 3: left to say anything. And that's similar to how it

624
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 3: was in the community. He didn't just start drinking and

625
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 3: tell everybody to drink. He actually went to Italy for

626
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 3: a little bit, took his cronies, went off the grid,

627
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 3: took a break, and that's where he started binge drinking

628
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 3: with his closest confidant. And then slowly as the big

629
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 3: wigs he put it on. My father had left by now,

630
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: so my father was not there drinking with him. But slowly,

631
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: as the big leaders of the community started binge drinking

632
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 3: with him, and they all came back to send it on,

633
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 3: they started seeing them drinking, slowly the addicts and lifestylers

634
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 3: got on. So it was just very very gradual. And

635
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 3: then you know, as you see, oh, so and so

636
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 3: is doing it, Oh Chuck's doing it. Oh I can

637
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: do it, and it sort of wasn't just like Okay,

638
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: everybody can drink now. It wasn't really like an announcement.

639
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 3: It was just he's doing it. Everybody's going to do it.

640
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: And I can imagine there being a culture where it's like, oh, well,

641
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 2: maybe we've defeated our alcoholism or our addiction because we

642
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 2: have this community. Now, we have this sort of guiding

643
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 2: force in our lives. So I can imagine it not

644
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 2: seeming the same as if you were to start drinking

645
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: just like on your own outside the group, and they're

646
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 2: being a way to justify that.

647
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, the community was something different. They had

648
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 3: lifestyles in it. It wasn't just like a rehab community

649
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 3: and that's it. It was something different. It was just

650
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 3: the way for people to live together and take care

651
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 3: of each other. And I think you said, you know, well,

652
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: you know, forget all the addiction stuff. We're really more

653
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 3: about living together and taking care of each other, and

654
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: that's the most important thing. And unfortunately people died, people

655
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 3: had hepsy, and they drink yourself to death. You know.

656
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 3: I think it influenced my father as well. You started

657
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 3: drinking again as well, So yeah, it had a major

658
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 3: impact on the community, and a very serious one.

659
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 2: I mean, and it also is is very much in

660
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 2: line with you know, typically cult leaders will just change

661
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: their message out of nowhere, and often they'll do it

662
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: frequently and completely the opposite of the thing they said

663
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: last week. And the point is that by that point

664
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 2: their followers are so indoctrinated and are so looking to

665
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: them for their answers that the actual content of the

666
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: message doesn't really matter because their autonomy has been taken

667
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: away and their entire belief system is based on following

668
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 2: this person. So from the outside it's like what you

669
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 2: start to but on the inside you're like, oh, the

670
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: person who knows all of the things is doing this thing,

671
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: so I follow them. So what am I supposed to do?

672
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And it's not just the person, it's you know,

673
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 3: my best friend is here, my wife is here, my

674
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 3: children are here. You know, what would I do if

675
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 3: I left Synonon? You know, for many people, Synanon saved

676
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 3: their lives. You have to understand that. And what do

677
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 3: you do when a lifestyle or a quote unquote cult

678
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: actually literally saved your life and although it was you know,

679
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 3: became something scary And I'm not trying to justify people's

680
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 3: choice of insane or participating in the violence. I can

681
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 3: see how somebody could say, well, I would be dead,

682
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 3: so I wasn't here, so anything goes.

683
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: I want to rewind a little bit. I want to

684
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about the sterilizations and when and

685
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: how that happened.

686
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 3: So that started around the time that the violence started,

687
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 3: surround seventy sixth seventy seven, and my understanding again, it

688
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 3: was very gradual. Uh. You know, they had the school

689
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 3: for kids, and then they would have a branch that

690
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 3: they created called the punk Squad where the troubled children,

691
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 3: the especially troubled children would be put into and it

692
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 3: was like boot camps. You know. They would make them

693
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 3: run five miles every morning from the time they were

694
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 3: six years old. They'd have to make hospital corners in

695
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 3: their bed. They'd bounce the quarter or nickel off of

696
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 3: the corners of the bed, very strict. And then they

697
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 3: started kind of beating up these kids as punishments, very

698
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 3: you know, you could say, on ruly kids. So we

699
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 3: know that being violent with them, is that going to

700
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 3: help them? We know that now, So started around then

701
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 3: and then from there they said, well we got all

702
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 3: these unholy kids, and you know, how are we going

703
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 3: to feed them, How we're going to fund them? More

704
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 3: and more people are coming lifestylears, bringing their children. What

705
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 3: are we going to do? So Chuck said, you know what,

706
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 3: no more kids, No more kids. You can't have your kids,

707
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 3: sit them on, you can't put them in the school.

708
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 3: And the best way to do that is for men

709
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 3: to get protectanes and for women to have abortions, and

710
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 3: then you don't even have to worry about it because

711
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 3: they just won't be kids, right, And that's how it started.

712
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 3: And people started volunteering to get these defectomies and volunteering

713
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 3: to get these abortions, and the undertone was you do

714
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 3: it or you're out. And people already had their kids

715
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 3: in the school, they were getting clean for the first

716
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 3: time in their life. They were thriving, and you know,

717
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: what's a snip here and there, and nobody saw it

718
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 3: as a problem because everybody was like, you know, some addicts,

719
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 3: you know, volunteering to get sterilized. Who cares? You know? Yeah,

720
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 3: but it got pretty intense and scary all the way

721
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 3: down to you know, the eighteen year olds. And my

722
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 3: father had one two and he regretted it as well,

723
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 3: because we left and him and my mom were married,

724
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 3: and now they had a whole life to face, and

725
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 3: you know, he was sterile, and it really changed the

726
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 3: course of a lot of people's lives. And some people

727
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 3: didn't feel they had a choice.

728
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 2: Oh, that's so horrible. So your mom and dad met

729
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 2: in the group.

730
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so my dad was actually married to his third

731
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 3: wife when he met my mom. He was kind of

732
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 3: a playboy. That was always him. He was the ladies man.

733
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 3: But yeah, they met in Sinanon and my dad changed partners,

734
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 3: so to speak, and my mom and dad got married

735
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: in the Renaissance wedding, which was a wedding of seventy

736
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 3: five couple and mass wedding on the beach. And at

737
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 3: the time it was just this revolutionary thing to get

738
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 3: married with all of your friends. So until they met.

739
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 2: Wow. And so that was when Chuck decided that because

740
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 2: he had gotten a new partner, everyone else also needed

741
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: to get a new partner.

742
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 3: That was a little beforehand. I used the term loosely,

743
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,919
Speaker 3: but no, they weren't required to change partners at that time.

744
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,240
Speaker 3: My dad just really fell in love with my mom.

745
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 3: He just didn't Yeah, and then and then later on

746
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 3: they were kind of forced to separate and change partners,

747
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 3: and my mom with her and her partner, they spent

748
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 3: the night crying and they didn't actually have sex because

749
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 3: they both loved their spouse. But no, that was a

750
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 3: little bit beforehand. The Renaissance wedding was still in what

751
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 3: many people would their good times of Synanons.

752
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, so people were with people they wanted

753
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 2: to be with for that Okay, in that case, that

754
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 2: sounds super fun.

755
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, people dressed up. It was a great time.

756
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: But right, so then later then he's like, everyone needs

757
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 2: to be with someone new, because if I'm in pain,

758
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 2: you all also have to be in pain. Basically.

759
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

760
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 2: So at that point, like he's controlling so much about

761
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: people's lives. He's controlling who they're with, he's controlling whether

762
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 2: they have children. Were there other things? What else was

763
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 2: under the control of Chuck and Synanam in general?

764
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 3: Everything, I mean, every facehood of your life, down to sex.

765
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 3: You know, how you look, people shave their heads right,

766
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 3: how you acted, how your children were taught and raised,

767
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 3: who you could be with and when you could be

768
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 3: with them. That wasn't always like that, you know, what

769
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 3: I mean, nobody just joined the quote unquote cult. It

770
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 3: wasn't always like that, but yes, it went all the

771
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 3: way down to you know, what you could eat and

772
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: we need a date and all that. Yeah.

773
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's always a thing that happens over time.

774
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 2: If you were to enter a group and someone was like, welcome,

775
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to control every single thing in your life,

776
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: as soon as they got in, nobody would join. Nobody

777
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: would stay right like that is a little bit more here,

778
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 2: and then a little bit more here, and then a

779
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: little bit more of the hair, until finally you're you

780
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 2: have no identity left and no autonomy whatsoever.

781
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,280
Speaker 3: And what you can wear denim overalls were the same

782
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 3: men and women, especially on the ranch in a small stay,

783
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 3: and actually to the day of my dad died, he

784
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 3: usually always wore denim overalls.

785
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: Wow.

786
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 3: You know, so for the uniform of Sinnaan in a

787
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 3: way or became I.

788
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 2: Didn't know that. Okay, now I'm looking at pictures. Wow,

789
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: that's so interesting. Was there an explanation for that or

790
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 2: is it just kind of like what Chuck liked?

791
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 3: There might be I don't know. So, you know, I'm

792
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 3: learning a lot myself, but you know, I think you know,

793
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 3: it was just part of being the workforce. You know,

794
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 3: it showed that you were a hard working individual that

795
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 3: was part of a community and part of something larger

796
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 3: than yourself. And they literally built them and on from

797
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 3: the ground up.

798
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 2: Wow. I mean, in particular the way that the kids

799
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 2: were treated as something that is that is sad to

800
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 2: hear about. We have Michael jolt On here and the

801
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 2: abuse of the children. I'm sure obviously no one realized

802
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: that was what it was at that time, but there

803
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: are a lot of unfortunate things that eventually, over time

804
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,720
Speaker 2: began to happen. And so can you tell us about

805
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 2: how finally your dad was over it and got out

806
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: of there.

807
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 3: So my dad, you know, he's kind of been thinking

808
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 3: about leaving. My mom wanted to leave. My mom wanted

809
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 3: to leave as soon as the violence started. But my

810
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 3: dad had built this place from the ground up. And

811
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 3: he's been every waking moment of the last twenty years

812
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: of his life, you know, getting funding for syn and

813
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 3: on helping better the school, having a better education for

814
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 3: the children. He built playgrounds for the children. He wanted

815
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 3: to go from twelve people in an apartment to millions

816
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 3: of dollars in assets and airstrip. I mean, you know,

817
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 3: I can just imagine. And he went from somebody who

818
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 3: was on the street, heroin attic, nobody cared about, to

819
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 3: being the leader of thousands of people, you know, one

820
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 3: of the leaders. And I could see that he just

821
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 3: he really thought he could convince Chuck to get back

822
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 3: on track. He really really did. And then eventually he

823
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: did the year end report for nineteen seventy seven, so

824
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 3: this was very early nineteen seventy eight, and he saw

825
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 3: all the violence and all the problems, and he finally said,

826
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 3: you know, to my mom, we got to get out

827
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 3: of here. And he wrote her a letter and said

828
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 3: I'm I'm finally ready to go, you know. And they

829
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 3: threw him out, and they really, you know, dit a

830
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 3: number on him. And he went to the desk and

831
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: he said, I've built this place. I built this place.

832
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 3: And they threw him out with absolutely nothing. And Chuck said,

833
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 3: over the wire, so long, kids, And that was twenty

834
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 3: years of his life.

835
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 2: Wow. And was he a target after he left?

836
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 3: He was in danger. He was absolutely harassed. But yeah,

837
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 3: we would have guns in every room. I remember one

838
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 3: time growing up, you know, he'd always look over his shoulder,

839
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 3: and I was out feeding the chickens with him, and

840
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 3: you know, we had this ful property. They didn't have

841
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 3: much money, but we had the full property. We had

842
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 3: chickens and a garden and things like that. And like

843
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 3: this old truck pulls up and could have been nothing,

844
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 3: but he says, run as fast as you can to

845
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 3: the house. And it was always things like that. And

846
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 3: you know they would call him in the middle of

847
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 3: the night, and whether or not they were serious about

848
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 3: hurting him, you know, they had already heard other people.

849
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 3: And what they did to the man was horrible. I really,

850
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 3: I really think that I really wish they would have

851
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 3: left them alone. But you know, that's what happens when

852
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 3: you bring violence into a community.

853
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, people who left, I mean many people experienced threats

854
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,879
Speaker 2: and violence after they left, which just goes to show

855
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 2: you how far it had gone off track from what

856
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 2: it was originally supposed to be. Yeah, so how much

857
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 2: of this did you know about when you were growing up?

858
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 3: Only the good part. I was raised by the synonym community.

859
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 3: You know a lot of people wearing Moregette Johnston, Clone,

860
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 3: Sarry McLendon, the Olans. I mean, so many people gathered

861
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 3: around eventually, and you know, I got to hear all

862
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,399
Speaker 3: the stories of sit it On, and for the most part,

863
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 3: I only knew the positives. I really just this idea

864
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 3: that it was pretty much this utopia that they had

865
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 3: been in, and they didn't really talk a lot about

866
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 3: the bad stuff. I really had to do my own

867
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 3: research when I entered high school and when I are

868
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 3: learning about Synadon as a whole. And I don't think

869
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: they were ninety in not understanding where Sinanah went, but

870
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 3: I think they were, especially my dad, it was very

871
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 3: good about understanding that there was the synonym as it

872
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 3: was and the Cynonon as it became, and they were

873
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 3: two totally completely separate mindset. Separate community is separate things

874
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 3: and separate leaders if you could think, you know, the

875
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 3: sort of Jeko and hide personalities of truck. So when

876
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 3: he talked about Synonaon, he talked about Synanon as it was,

877
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 3: so we didn't get into Cynadon as it became. But

878
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 3: to understand the community as a whole, you have to

879
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: understand that it's two pieces to a puzzle.

880
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 2: How do you think that the experience overall and the

881
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 2: experience of leaving impacted your dad.

882
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 3: That was horrible. I think it broke the man. I

883
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 3: really think it broke the man. He spent twenty years

884
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 3: sober and he didn't have a job, he didn't have

885
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 3: a resume, he didn't have you know, he couldn't call

886
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 3: Chuck for a little recommendation after twenty years of service, saying,

887
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 3: think with my mom. They never had any money. So

888
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: my dad went from leading thousands of people and getting

889
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 3: millions of dollars of funding, doing all these amazing things

890
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 3: for the community to driving a cab and he actually

891
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 3: got a throat flood in the cab, you know what

892
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 3: I mean, And just just taking rock bottom jobs trying

893
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 3: to survive. And he worked a blue collar job until

894
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 3: the day he died at seventy five. He didn't retire

895
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 3: anything because he was just trying to make money. And

896
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 3: it really broke him, and he did relapse on sobriety

897
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 3: later on. I can't blame all his choices on sin

898
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 3: and on, but I can say it really did break

899
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 3: them in psychologically. And on top of that, he didn't

900
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 3: feel like he could be very public about it because

901
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 3: the correct.

902
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 2: Oh I cannot imagine being cut off from this life,

903
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 2: this only thing you've known for that many years, your

904
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 2: entire community, what probably feels like your family, like your

905
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 2: support system, your source of income, and you know, like everything,

906
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 2: especially coming out and not having money. Like there are

907
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 2: people who come out of cults and they have access

908
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,959
Speaker 2: to resources to help them, and then there are way

909
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 2: more people that don't have anything, and I just like

910
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 2: feel so sad for people who have that experience, which

911
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 2: is basically the experience that my mom had as well.

912
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 2: Or like you don't have a new support system, you

913
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 2: don't have any resources, you don't know what to do

914
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 2: now to make your life feel good again. You know,

915
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 2: like that can just be such a challenge.

916
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and his friends would say, you know, he never

917
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 3: really talked bad about tennan On, but you know, why

918
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 3: would he. I mean, he's surrounded by people that left

919
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 3: for the violence, because he surrounded to himselfish people after

920
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:08,399
Speaker 3: the violence, and you know, to them, it was night

921
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 3: and day. It was a different type of Synanon, So

922
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 3: why would he, you know, want to talk about those times.

923
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 3: He wanted to talk about the good times. But furthermore,

924
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 3: his daughters, Naomi and Rebecca were still in son On

925
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 3: and that weighed heavily on him because he couldn't really

926
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 3: go against Synanon, He couldn't really speak out. He did

927
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 3: wear like some shirts and a hat that would have

928
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 3: the logo of Synanon with you know, a line through it,

929
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 3: of course, but you can imagine he has two young

930
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 3: children in there, and all he wants to do is

931
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 3: see those children. He loved his girls all the way

932
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 3: to the end. He loved his girls, and that put

933
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 3: him in a very difficult position because he needed to

934
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 3: see those girls and that was priority number one.

935
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,280
Speaker 2: Wow, I didn't know that part. Yeah, I mean, that's

936
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 2: like unimaginably difficult, because at least when you leave a

937
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 2: cult and you don't have people left in it, you

938
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 2: can find a way to process that experience and speak

939
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 2: out about it, and that's really healing for a lot

940
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 2: of people. But when you don't even have that like

941
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: that is, Yeah, that's incredibly difficult. How do you think

942
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 2: Synanon has impacted your life? I mean, it sounds like

943
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: you grew up around a lot of people who had

944
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 2: really beautiful experiences with it. But you know, obviously your

945
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: dad was very impacted. But how do you kind of

946
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 2: think of Synanon now?

947
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 3: I like to think of it how my dad thought

948
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 3: of it as two sort of different synonyons, and recognize

949
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 3: Synanon for what it was and for what it became,

950
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 3: just like the two sort of different communities. It has

951
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 3: impacted me in both good and bad ways. The bad,

952
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 3: of course, seemed that my family always felt they needed

953
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 3: to look over their shoulder. You know, my dad had

954
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 3: a lot of trauma from leaving the way he did,

955
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 3: which as a child you can kind of pick gop

956
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 3: on from living in poverty basically. You know, we weren't

957
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 3: on the street, but you know we had a very

958
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 3: difficult time. But the good things work. You know, not

959
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 3: everybody has this community that helps raise them and love them.

960
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 3: And you know, I've had many surgeries and you know

961
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 3: there are people in sid On that steps up and

962
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 3: let us stay with them while I was, you know,

963
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 3: having surgeries in California. You know, some of the teachings

964
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 3: uh in the synon On prayer like to understand instead

965
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 3: of rather than to be understood, you know, things like that,

966
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 3: to live with people respectfully and kindly.

967
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: You know.

968
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 3: Another another thing would be, you know, uh, the troubled

969
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 3: team industry. I wasn't the best kid and I think

970
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 3: my mom kind of thought maybe something structured like synon

971
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 3: on school would be good for me. It was not.

972
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 3: But then again, you know, you know, what these programs

973
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 3: tell parents is very different than what they actually are.

974
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 3: So I don't blame it on her, but yeah, but

975
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 3: I think she was always kind of looking for that

976
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 3: next CNNON, looking for that next utopia, not only for

977
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 3: her but for myself. And you know, sometimes it was

978
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 3: good and sometimes it was back in that isolated cult

979
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 3: sort of.

980
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 2: Thinking Oh yeah, I just like I imagine if I

981
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 2: went through an experience like the first part of synonym,

982
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: I would be trying to recreate it for the rest

983
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 2: of my life. Like absolutely, it must be such a high.

984
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 2: Like I remember there was that one study about that

985
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 2: one town. I think maybe it's in Greece where people

986
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 2: lived the longest of anywhere, and they were hypothesizing, Oh,

987
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 2: maybe it's the diet, maybe it's this, and ultimately the

988
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 2: hypothesis that they landed on was just like is the community.

989
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 2: It's so communal, Like community keeps us alive, it keeps

990
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 2: our strong, us levels down, it helps us feel connected

991
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 2: and gives us meaning, you know, and to have it

992
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 2: in such a you know, meaningful way and then not

993
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 2: get that anymore. Then it gets sort of turns into

994
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 2: this other thing like that would be so hard. I

995
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 2: would just always be trying to have that experience.

996
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 3: Again, we were talking about that peak experience, and I

997
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 3: think especially for my mom, you know, there's always searching

998
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 3: for that. And actually one of the jobs they did

999
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 3: get coming out of Simonon was they helped run a

1000
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 3: school for troubled teams, not in the punk squad military

1001
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 3: boot camp lay but in the way that the non

1002
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 3: started and the school started and brought many of the

1003
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 3: teachings with them to try to help those kids. So, yeah,

1004
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 3: always looking for that peak experience.

1005
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 2: Boy do I get that. I'm looking for a peak

1006
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 2: experience myself, right right? Is there anything else that you

1007
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 2: would like to add that we didn't touch on, or

1008
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 2: you know, any final thoughts that you have just that I.

1009
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 3: Don't think anybody will understand synonyms fully. I think it

1010
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 3: was not just a cult and it was not just

1011
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,959
Speaker 3: a utopia. It was everything in between. It was many people,

1012
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 3: many faces, as many experiences, and I want the listeners

1013
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 3: to know that when they think of cynada On, think

1014
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 3: of a living, breathing community because Synandan officially ended in

1015
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety one when these facilities shut down. But Synandon

1016
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,479
Speaker 3: is a state of mind, and as long as these

1017
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 3: community members are working with each other, visiting each other,

1018
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 3: helping each other, you know, that's what Synonon's about, and

1019
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 3: to label it just one way or another would be

1020
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 3: a disservice to these people and to the community. We

1021
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 3: definitely don't want it to be violent, and we definitely

1022
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 3: don't want to justify of what Synanon did and what

1023
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 3: it became. But that's just a very small piece of

1024
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 3: the story.

1025
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 2: I love that you are the one hosting this podcast

1026
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 2: because I feel like you can speak to so much

1027
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 2: of the good things about the community that you kind

1028
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 2: of were able to experience as a kid. I think

1029
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 2: that that's very cool and you do a great job.

1030
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 3: Thank you. I really appreciate that.

1031
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, So tell us where we can listen and what

1032
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 2: it's called.

1033
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:27,320
Speaker 3: So podcast is the Sunshine place? You can listen on Apple,

1034
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,800
Speaker 3: Spotify and audible.

1035
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 2: Awesome? And are you on social media?

1036
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 3: I am. I'm on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tumbler, and TikTok

1037
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 3: under Sarry Crawford Awesome.

1038
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for joining us. This has

1039
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 2: been amazing.

1040
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

1041
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,280
Speaker 2: All Right, Well, since we have already done a sinan

1042
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 2: On episode, we do know that you would join senan On,

1043
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 2: and I probably we do know that yes, probably would do,

1044
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 2: so I just like, I'm just gonna comment on how

1045
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 2: it's interesting. I feel like they're fit a number of

1046
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 2: cult leaders that we have seen in our various interviews

1047
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 2: who are actually like not that controlling, or like not

1048
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 2: that violent, or sometime it's not at all until after

1049
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 2: their partner dies, which I think is super interesting because

1050
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 2: it's like, you, guys, you could just go to therapy

1051
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 2: instead of turning your cult into a violent organization. You

1052
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 2: know what I mean.

1053
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a meme, like on one side, process

1054
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: your emotions. On the other side, start a violent cult.

1055
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 1: And it's definitely easier to start a cult. No, I mean,

1056
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: I'm not even kidding, so I get it. But yeah, people,

1057
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: is that true to it?

1058
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 4: If you are a person who struggles with narcissism, I

1059
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 4: imagine it is much easier to be in control than

1060
00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 4: to try to be vulnerable.

1061
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 2: Struggles with narcissism is an interesting way to put it

1062
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 2: because who knows on the spectrum of narcissism, Like, maybe

1063
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 2: you're not the violent kind and until something happens that

1064
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 2: you're like unable to deal with because it makes you

1065
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 2: feel so vulnerable, and then you become the violent kind.

1066
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: Interesting, we should really we should like try to find

1067
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: a stat on that. I mean, I probably won't be

1068
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 1: doing that, but maybe we could figure it.

1069
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 2: Out on which specific how.

1070
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: Many people go more extreme after their partner dies.

1071
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like either when a bunch of people leave

1072
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 2: the group like that tends to be when they start

1073
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,760
Speaker 2: to get really paranoid and controlling. Or yeah, like after

1074
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 2: someone really important to them dies, which is so interesting

1075
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 2: because it's like where even they are just little kids

1076
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 2: who just don't want to be abandoned, but they just

1077
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 2: act out in really really bad ways. Ugh, we're all

1078
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 2: in the same boat, except some of them are a

1079
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 2: much worse and some of them are crashing them on purpose,

1080
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 2: and so yeah, some of them are really bad captains.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening this week guys.

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Speaker 1: As always, we can't wait to see you again next week,

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00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 1: and remember to follow your gut watch out for red flats.

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Speaker 2: I never ever close. Bye trust me. As produced by

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Speaker 2: Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

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Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

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00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

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Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

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00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

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00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

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00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 2: I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

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00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Debraham

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00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.