1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: He hired me as a punch up writer for one day. 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: I just kept coming back. This was pre not eleven days, 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: and I got to notice security guard at the gate 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: at ABC, and he just saw me coming every day, 5 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: so he'd let me in. And you know, I'm not 6 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: trying to get that guy fired now, but I don't 7 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: know if he's still there. But every day I kept 8 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: coming in and not just going the writer's room and 9 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: sit on the couch and just keep pitching jokes and 10 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: pitching jokes until Don Rio, who was our showrunner, Uh, 11 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: he said, you know what, sit at the table, and 12 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: that was the beginning. Hright. My name is Rodney Barnes. 13 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm an executive producer and writer on the hit show 14 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: Winning Time on HBO, and I write a bunch of 15 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: other cool stuffs. Hello, friends, welcome to another episode of 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: Off the Beat. I'm so glad you're here. As always, 17 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: this is your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today, as you just heard, 18 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to be speaking with writer producer Rodney Barnes. Now, 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: who's Rodney Barnes, you might ask, Well, he is a man, 20 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: a writer who has mastered almost every genre. I mean, 21 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: I'm not exaggerating He's worked on everything from sitcom's like 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: Everybody Hates Chris Too, satirical cartoons like The Boon Docks, 23 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: which by the way, won him a Peabody, and sports 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: dramas like the new hit HBO show that I just finished, 25 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: Winning Time. Trust me check that show out if you haven't. 26 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: It is worth it, whether you're a sports fan or not. 27 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: Oh and when he's not doing all of that, he 28 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: also writes graphic novels. So yeah, no big deal. Listen, 29 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: if you're looking for some inspiration for some real talk 30 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: about show biz, you have come to the right place today. 31 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: I mean Rodney. He literally left the writer's room for 32 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: season two of Win Time to come here and to 33 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: talk to us. We're gonna walk through his incredible career 34 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: from being a production assistant on a first name basis 35 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: with his childhood heroes to learning to tell the best 36 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: story he can no matter what room he is in. 37 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: You know what, I'm gonna let the man. I'm gonna 38 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: let the master speak for himself. So here he is 39 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: Rodney Barnes. Everyone, Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble 40 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: and Squeak, Bubble and Squeaker. Cook at every month left 41 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: over from the night before. What's up, Rodney, How are 42 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: you sure? I'm all right? How are you doing? Doing okay, 43 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: doing okay, just okay today. Yeah, so we has worked. 44 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff going on at the same time, 45 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: but it's all good stuff. Well, good, well, thank you 46 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: for taking the time to talk to me. First off, 47 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 1: I have to say congratulations on your huge smash hit, 48 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: which I finished a couple of days ago, now winning 49 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: time on HBO. I'm very excited to talk to you 50 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: about that. But I wanted to start going back a 51 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: little bit for our listeners and for me, like how 52 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: you got to where you are now? You grew up 53 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: in Maryland, right, Annapolis, Maryland? Annapolis, Maryland is where I 54 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: grew up. You grew up, you were born and raised, 55 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: you lived there for your youth. Yeah. I was born 56 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: at the U. S. Naval Academy. My father was in 57 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: the military, lived there, stayed there for twenty five years. 58 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: I went to college in the area. Sort of figured 59 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: my life was just gonna be regular Annapolitan for lack 60 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: of a better word. Every job that I have was 61 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: in the area and never really could sider being in California. 62 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: One day and then um. When I went to Howard University, 63 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: I started to work on movies and TV shows Pelican Brief, 64 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: Clear Present, Danger, Quiz Show, Forrest Gump, anything that came 65 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: to the area and I could get a gig on 66 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: would be a production assistant or an assistant director. And 67 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: then eventually I worked on a movie, Major Pain, with 68 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: Damon Wayams, and he took an interest in me and 69 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: gave me an opportunity to work on his movies. And 70 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: that sort of led me to l A And I'm 71 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: packed up my stuff, moved out and left in my 72 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: car for a while. That famous l A story, you know, 73 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: scratching and scraping and try to make your way. And 74 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: I did that and here we are here, here we 75 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: are before I want to talk about the car. But 76 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: when you went to Howard, as you said, when did 77 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: you start to sort of think this is what I 78 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: want to do. I want to be involved in entertainment 79 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: or I want to be a writer. Well what happened 80 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: was I went to when I first went to college, 81 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: a bunch of journey colleges and different colleges. It was 82 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: to play sports, and probably a third of the way 83 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: in I realized I wasn't good enough to make a 84 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: living at being an athlete. But I kept doing it 85 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: anyway because I didn't have a plan. B There was 86 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: nothing else really there, um, you know, for me to do. 87 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: So I kept doing it because it was something to do. 88 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: And then eventually, UM hit a wall and said, you know, 89 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to run out of time, and a friend 90 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: suggested I go back to school for real, and I 91 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: went back to Howard focused on the film and television business. 92 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: Still had no idea how it was going to work. 93 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: I did not know what the bridge from the East 94 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: Coast to Hollywood, you know, how that worked. Didn't understand 95 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: the business at all, but slowly but surely, and I'd 96 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: say being a production assistant was a huge part of 97 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: it because I got an opportunity to see how it 98 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: all sort of came together and slowly but surely make 99 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: my way in it. Now. Writing was another thing. It 100 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: was more of. I knew I wanted to write, and 101 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: I knew I wanted to be in the business, but 102 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: I pretty much knew no one was going to hire 103 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: me just being so green and just buy a script 104 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: from me and make a million dollars and everything was 105 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 1: going to be great coming out of the box. So 106 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: I looked at being a production assistant and working in 107 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: production as a way to keep a roof over my head, 108 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: you know, while I was figuring out the writing part two. 109 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: So the first part sort of supported the second part, right. 110 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's so interesting. I've talked to so many 111 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: people and we've talked about the value of just on 112 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: set experience, just being around a set, seeing how things work, 113 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: whether you're working in exactly the area that you want 114 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: to be. How valuable that just that experience is. Well 115 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: what I think a lot of people I talked to 116 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: a lot of writers, they don't want to go through 117 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: that process. They want to do the thing they want 118 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: to do, which is understandable. But if you come from 119 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: the conventional working world, which ninety nine point nine percent 120 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: of us come from, it works its own way. But 121 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: the entertainment business works another way. It's a way we talk, 122 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: it's a way at the pace at which it moves, 123 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: the expectations, the emotional psychological development that you have in 124 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: order to be able to deal with constant rejection, all 125 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: of that stuff you typically don't get in the conventional world. 126 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: If you work at a regular government job, like you know, 127 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: my family did. They are boundaries that you work within. 128 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: You you know what they are. You get a reviewed 129 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,559 Speaker 1: every year, you get raised, or you don't get a raised, 130 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: and it's very conventional, and in Hollywood it's sort of 131 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,679 Speaker 1: like the circus. You know, every month, two months, three months, 132 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: you could be moving on to the next place, and 133 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: you've got to figure out how you're gonna make it. 134 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: In between, there's a lot of rejection, or could be. 135 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: I don't know anybody that hasn't, but I'm trying to 136 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: be out to miss it. Certainly in my career has 137 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: been a lot of rejection, and you have to mostly 138 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: be able to continue to get back up off the 139 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: horse when things don't go the way that you wanted 140 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: to go. Maybe you don't have that mental toughness. This 141 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: is gonna be a really hard ride for you. And 142 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: so I think having those jobs gave me an opportunity 143 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: to learn stuff, to get those muscles ready. Living in 144 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: my car, just a lot of things that I had 145 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,239 Speaker 1: to do to get to this place that I didn't 146 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: realize at the time. I always use the analogy of 147 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: when you're in the gym, you have the machines and 148 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: you have free weights, the machines do some of the 149 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: work for you because they balanced the weight that you're 150 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: lifting and you're just doing the movement. But when you're 151 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: doing free weights, you have all those little muscles to 152 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: balance it that you're doing yourself, that you're utilizing to 153 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: lift in the weight. That's sort of what I look 154 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: at working in production is because there's so many little 155 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: things that you're getting about how to interact with other 156 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: people within the business and learning what to do and 157 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: what not to do. You know, I've never had mentors 158 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: in the conventional sense of the word that someone put 159 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: their arm around me and said, sonen, come on, I'm 160 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: gonna show you how this business work. But I've been 161 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: blessed to be in rooms with some really high level 162 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: people and how they conducted themselves and how they dealt 163 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: with stress, and how they you know, we're leaders, and 164 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: just to be able to observe was the biggest thing. 165 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: If I had had success in my twenties or you know, 166 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: even early thirties, I would have blown it. I know 167 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: I would have blown it. And having the opportunity to 168 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: take a step back and just learn is invaluable. Yeah, 169 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: you know, everything for me is not about the office. 170 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: But I will talk about Greg Daniels, our showrunner, who 171 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: talked about for him, which makes so much sense. Oftentimes, writers, 172 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 1: particularly young writers, are writing and a void without really 173 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: understanding how television or movies are constructed. Whereas when you 174 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: hear a p A and when you're on set, you 175 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: know you can't write some things. I used to joke 176 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: with him, I'm not Homer Simpson. There are things that 177 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: a writer can write for Homer Simpson and and an 178 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: animator can animate that. My body is not gonna do that. 179 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: There's no way to shoot certain things. And so I 180 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: think as a writer having that because oftentimes they're right, 181 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: you're stuck in a writer's room. You're not really on 182 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: set on a day to day basis. Being able to 183 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: understand that is so important. The greatest boot camp for 184 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: me on My Wife and Kids, which was my first 185 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: show sitcom, was that I had the opportunity to you, 186 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: after you're a million percent right, that you believe, when 187 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: you're sort of in the comfort of your own mind 188 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: and space without anybody evaluating the work, that you can 189 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 1: just write about anything. You can say anything, you could 190 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: do anything that no boundaries. But when you start to 191 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: learn how to write producible scripts within the budget that 192 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 1: you're working with, within the constraints of a net worked 193 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: if you're a network on a network show or what 194 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: have you, you realize when you're actually in production and 195 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: making a thing, now you're really writing to something versus 196 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: just your imagination and your desire to write. And I 197 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: can say for me, the first ten years of my 198 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: career were really all about that thing that you what 199 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: you just mentioned, It was learning how to be a 200 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: professional writer and learning how to be a professional you know, 201 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: mentally and emotionally in both situations. Like like I said, 202 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: I'm glad that I had to go through the process 203 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: of being a staff writer twice the story editor. I 204 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: jumped up a couple of levels because I was on 205 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: some shows for a while, But I needed that initial 206 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: training in order to get from zero to one, or 207 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: I doubt that I would have. You know, some of 208 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: the good things that have happened to me later in 209 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: my career wouldn't have happened if I didn't have that 210 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: foundation to go back to. Yeah. Yeah, so you meet 211 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: the wayans their supply word of of you. Yes, you 212 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: decided to make the jump to Los Angeles, and then yes, 213 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, you were living out of your car. Now, 214 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: how what did that do for you or to you 215 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: in terms of it would have been very easy to 216 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: give up at that point. Yeah, I was fortunate about 217 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: the whole living in my car thing. You know, certainly 218 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: when you say it through the years of Today's listener 219 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: and they go, oh my god, you lived in your car. 220 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: You were homeless. It must have been the worst thing 221 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: in the world. And it wasn't. For the two years 222 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: that I was following Dame and around the country. He 223 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: wasn't putting me up in hotels. I was living in 224 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: my car then too, But there was something about being 225 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: close to the thing that I wanted to do. I 226 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: knew everything in my hometown. I knew what life would 227 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: be if I went back there. I didn't know what 228 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: it would be in Hollywood. And I've got this guy, 229 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: and he's given me jobs and the mom sets every 230 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: day and I'm meeting the right people. I'm learning a lot. 231 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: You know, it didn't feel like homelessness. It didn't feel 232 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: painful because in my mind, Okay, I would be in 233 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: my car at night, but I would be on set 234 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: like six seven in the morning because that's what the 235 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: p's you know, come in. They come in first. I 236 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: could eat and craft service all day. I probably actually 237 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: gain weight because there's endless there's an endless plat food. 238 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: I got along with the transport guys because so they 239 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: gave me gas. I could go into honey wagons and 240 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: take a shower. I started a garbage business with my 241 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: truck where at the end of the night they would 242 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: give me a buck fifty a bag to get rid 243 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: of the catering the locations. Folks would like here, get 244 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: rid of this, and I make a hundred bucks, which 245 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: at that time was huge with my dollar a day salary. 246 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't bad. It was work a boy. 247 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: It wasn't like I was a guy doing nothing. It 248 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: was just I didn't have enough to sustain myself in 249 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: the way that I'm sustaining myself. Yeah, that you took 250 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: it as this is just what life is, and I'm 251 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: looking for this next opportunity. But I'm in l A. 252 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: I'm working, I'm I'm doing it. Yeah. Blade was my 253 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: first movie that I worked on in l A. I 254 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: love comic books and a comic book guy, so I'm 255 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: on set every day. Wesley Snipes knows my name. He's 256 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: in the Blade outfit. Steve Norrington is telling me stories 257 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: about when he was a special effects guy and the 258 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: chest Burster and alien Like. I'm around some really cool 259 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: people doing really cool stuff. I'm learning l a because 260 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: every day we have a different location. You know, it's 261 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: kind of cool. Yeah after that, Uh, you mentioned it already. 262 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: You you work with the Wayans. Your first writing job 263 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: right on my wife and kids. That was your first 264 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: staff writing job on television. Yeah, Damon, Uh, Damon and 265 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: I we weren't around each other for a hot second, 266 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: and then I got an opportunity to work on my 267 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: wife and kids. He hired me as a punch up 268 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: writer for one day. I just kept coming back. This 269 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: was pret not eleven day. And I got to notice 270 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: security guard at the gate at ABC, and he just 271 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: saw me coming every day, so he'd let me in. 272 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm not trying to get that guy 273 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: fired now, but I don't know if he's still there. 274 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: But every day I kept coming in and not just 275 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: going the writer's room and sit on the couch and 276 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: just keep pitching jokes and pitching jokes until Don Rio, 277 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: who was our showrunner, Uh. He said, you know what, 278 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: sit at the table. And that was the beginning. And 279 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: once I got at the table, it was like, Okay, 280 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep doing this thing. Now I'm sitting at 281 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: a writer's table. I'm a writer. And they hired me 282 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: to be a staff writer the next season, and that 283 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: sort of was the beginning. Television, particularly that type of 284 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: television coming from films is different, right, I mean the 285 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: presentational style. Did that present for you any challenges or 286 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: were you just full on enthusiastic about just being a writer. Yeah, 287 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: I was enthusiast. I was terrified about being a writer. 288 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: This is that them talking about the emotional psychological stuff. 289 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: There was a lot of imposter syndrome. There was a 290 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: lot of knowing what I didn't know. I thank god 291 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: that Done was my first guy because he was patient 292 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: with me. He saw whatever he saw and allowed me 293 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: to grow. And so it was really a thing about 294 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: a lot of times folks come to me and they say, 295 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: you know, I just want to work for you so 296 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: I can learn. I just want to learn. And I'm thinking, 297 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: this isn't college. You know. I don't say it out loud, 298 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: but I'm thinking, but I did get an opportunity to learn, 299 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: but I also contributed as well. There was this duality 300 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: of walking with both realities. That being in the writer's 301 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: room with someone who had a huge amount of experience, 302 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: it was invaluable, but I had to earn it every 303 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: single day when I went in. I had to do 304 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: what I could to answer your question. I didn't really 305 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: have professional chops in the way that I think I 306 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: do today, but I gave what ahead right. What attracted 307 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: you from an early age to graphic novels? What what 308 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: was it about that or comic books that that that 309 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: you really responded to? Well, I could tell you. My 310 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: mother was a school teacher and she used to do 311 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: her lesson plans at the public library. This is pre 312 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: they weren't computers. All she had was paper and pen 313 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: during those days. Being a single parent, she would take 314 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: me to the public library with her, and they had 315 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: this little pen where they had the kids books in 316 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: and the Curious George's and Dr Seuss and all of 317 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: that stuff. But under those books was a box, and 318 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: then that box were comic books. And I knew what 319 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: that box was, and I pulled him out and this 320 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: love affair was born that to this day still grips 321 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: me in a weird kind of way. I think it 322 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: was the nature of the stories challenged me in a 323 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: way that the kids books didn't. It's like the kids 324 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: books were clearly for kids. If I had nothing, I 325 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: would read them. But there was something about like I'm 326 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: gonna name folks I don't know if anyone knows who 327 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: they are. But there were guys like Jim Starling and 328 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: Neil Adams and Mike Rell and a bunch of great 329 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: creators who wrote what I would call early Star Wars 330 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: or early you know, Star Trek or any of the 331 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: things that would push the envelope. They would talk about 332 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: social issues, they would talk about you know, good versus evil, 333 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: life and death, all of this stuff. And it wasn't 334 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: literature in the classical sense of the word, but it 335 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: was preparing me for all of those things that I 336 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: would encounter later. So they didn't feel intimidating if someone 337 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: had me read Shakespeare, because these guys had already taken 338 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: a piece of the things that they do and put 339 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: them into Superman, Batman, green letter books. That sort of 340 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 1: was a great bridge from me to the more adult 341 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: fair that I and in too earlier but I was 342 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: just in tregue. I love the art, I love the stories, 343 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: and I'm I was an only child. Even though I 344 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: have a lot of half brothers and sisters, I spent 345 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: a lot of time by myself as a kid, So 346 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: comic books were sort of like a friend that I 347 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: could depend on. Yeah, this doesn't fully relate. I am 348 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: wondering if my daughter has kind of a similar fascination 349 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,719 Speaker 1: my sister. This happened last night, not a joke. My 350 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: sister sent a bunch of books from her Her kids 351 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: are older, my daughter's seven. She reads every night. She 352 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: just reads, reads, reads, reads, and she's been getting into 353 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 1: this box of books. And she said to me last night, 354 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: as we're going up, she said, I read this cool 355 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: story last night. The woman died because got bit by 356 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: a snake. But then the the man died too because 357 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: he got bit by a snake. And she starts talking 358 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: and I'm like, what is she reading? Where did she find? 359 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: And it was a kid's adaptation of Anthony and Cleopatra. 360 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: She I go, where is this book? I've got to 361 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: see this book and it's just, you know, totally for kids. 362 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 1: But like she doesn't she doesn't want to read Dr Seush. 363 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: She she is fascinated by what you're talking about, like 364 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: bigger stories that, even if they're told in a simplistic 365 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: way for kids, clearly had a huge impact on her. Yeah, 366 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: and you know Stephen King walks along the lines of 367 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: that as well. I remember as a kid when you say, 368 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: have paperback books on a spinner, and I had to 369 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: reach up. So that tells you how old I was 370 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 1: to them. Six eight now, so I've been like six 371 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: ft tall since I was probably thirteen years old. And 372 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: I remember getting carried. I remember the cover of the book. 373 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: I remember where I was when I bought the book, 374 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: and I don't know why I grabbed my eye. I 375 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: don't know why I caught me, but I was just 376 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: spending and spending and spending, and it stopped right there, 377 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: and I bought carry and I remember opening up the 378 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: book and I saw all of the reviews. They used 379 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: to have them in the I don't know if which 380 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 1: publisher it was, Penguin or whoever, but I saw all 381 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: of these reviews. I was like, Wow, this must be 382 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: really good. All of these people like this book, and 383 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: I didn't know how it worked back then with the 384 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 1: press and not to say that it was obviously I'm 385 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: still a fan, and then he did tell him slot 386 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: then he did the shining, and I was right there 387 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: just going basically doing the same thing I was with 388 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: comic books. I was building a relationship. And you know, 389 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 1: I'm in my fifties now and I was a teenager then, 390 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: and I just built this relationship with an author that 391 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: I came to depend on the consistency of a guy 392 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: like a Stephen King. You know, in my mind when 393 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: I think about being an author and writing comic books 394 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: and novels as well, it was like, how could I 395 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 1: build up a lifestyle that would house that type of 396 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 1: discipline to where I could be prolific in that way too, 397 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: to where you know, I'm writing television, but I'm writing 398 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: comic books, and I'm writing novels, and I'm writing movies 399 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: and I'm doing all these things. But that requires a 400 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: certain type of structure to your life, because no one's gonna, 401 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: you know, make you right or make you do these things. 402 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: You have to sort of come up with the intention 403 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: on your own that this is what I want to do, 404 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: this is what I need to do. And again, going 405 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: back to that p a thing and survival. You know, 406 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: pas come and go. You know, it's the thing that 407 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: you can get rid of. There's ten more standard in line. 408 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: There's a thing that you have to do two um, 409 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: you know, show that you really want to be there 410 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 1: and develop the reputation so that people keep hiring you 411 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: again and again and again. You know, just to be 412 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: able to think nimbly. Nobody comes along and says this 413 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: is what you need to do. You have to figure 414 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: it out yourself. And I think that that skill set 415 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: went from being a production assistant to being a professional 416 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,239 Speaker 1: writer to this day. You mentioned Stephen King, and I 417 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: know you have a deep love of vampire horror novels. 418 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: What is it about that material or the way that 419 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: stories are told in that genre that appeals to you 420 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: so much. The life and death thing is huge, you know, 421 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: the life and death thing that didn't exist in children's 422 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: books unless you were getting into the dark Disney stuff. 423 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: You know what, wasn't afraid to deal with life and death. 424 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: But typically there's this thing in horror to where there's 425 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: a good guy and a bad guy, and the bad 426 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: guy the antagonist operates on a place with a lot 427 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: of intangibles. That's the supernatural stuff, and in order for 428 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: the protagonist to make it out alive, whichever one does, 429 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: because obviously some won't, he has to use a unique 430 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: set of skills that go beyond conventional thinking because you 431 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: never know, you're dealing with a vampire who is immortal 432 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: and you know, can turn into a bet and some 433 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: of the mythos, and what do you do if you're 434 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: trying not to get your next sector, try to you know, 435 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: get your wife back. She's been bitten and you want 436 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: her to come back to being a human. What do 437 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: you do? There was always something about that and then 438 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: um not being able to predict the outcome, you know, 439 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: being able to go in a room and that could 440 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: be scary stuff in there, and a gun might not 441 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: help you, karate might not help you. There's there's just 442 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: so much to it that you have to use your 443 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: mind and your imagination in order to be able to 444 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: make it. That's so I've never thought about that before. 445 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: But the unconventional solutions to a high stakes problem where 446 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: you have to use your imagination, I think that's that's 447 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: awesome kept me going. Get time. I have to talk 448 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: about one of your really mega successes, The Boondocks, for 449 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: which you want a Peabody Award, And really that's mixing 450 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: a few of your loves, right, adapting a comic strip 451 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: into a television show. What was the process like for 452 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: launching that, forgetting that that show going? It was already 453 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: on track. The strips creator uh Am Gruta had already 454 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: been working on getting it going and was really looking 455 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: to work with television writer because he was trying to 456 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: adapt it for TV. And at the time I've been 457 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: working on my wife and kids, and our sensibilities sort 458 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: of meshed in a way. There was this frustration I 459 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: had because it was another side of me being a 460 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: writer working on network television with my wife and kids, 461 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: and everybody hates Chris the boundaries she had to work 462 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: within and with the Boon Ducks that didn't exist in 463 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: the same way. So I was able to find this 464 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: world where you could virtually say anything seemingly and be 465 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: creative in a way at network television didn't allow during 466 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 1: that period of time. And certainly, and even bringing the 467 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: cultural thing in, I could talk about black people in 468 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: a way here that I couldn't run network TV. Frustrations 469 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: and politics and all of this other stuff that it 470 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: gave a certain amount of freedom that wasn't there and 471 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: any of the other things that I had done, so, 472 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 1: you know, just having the opportunity and I was doing it. 473 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: I was working on that show at the same time 474 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: I was working on the other show, So it was 475 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: almost like an exhaust valve, you know, uh, air brakes 476 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: where you just need to let off some pressures. Like 477 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: I would do this one thing in the morning and 478 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: then do another thing at night, and they were completely 479 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 1: different things. But again, I look at all of that 480 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: stuff is sort of a boot camp or training ground 481 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: because school teaches you what school teaches you. But when 482 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: you're trying to build that bridge to being a professional 483 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: and wanting to do more mature things, it takes, like 484 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: any crap a, doing it over and over and over, 485 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: and then different types of ways and different entry points 486 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: of different tones and different styles, and before you can 487 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: get to a place where you can say, Okay, I'm 488 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: not intimidated by anything that's coming my way because I've 489 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: probably seen it before. You know, there's always that the 490 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: intrigue of something new. But once you've done something enough, 491 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: you know. The championship games are tonight in the NBA, 492 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: and these guys have been playing basketball for so long, 493 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: even though it's a different style, is still a game 494 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: of basketball. And that's sort of how I look at 495 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: writing because of the drama. I've done, comedy, I've done animation, 496 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of different single camera, multi caam commercials, whatever, 497 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: and all of that comes from having done so many 498 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: different things that when I walk in the room, even 499 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: if I haven't done it before, I'm like, Okay, this 500 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: is connected to something that I've done before, so it 501 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: doesn't feel completely foreign to the place where I'm going 502 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: to be intimidated. Yes, well, I just finished Winning Time 503 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: on HBO. You were talking before about having a fascination 504 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: or or really appreciating life and death situations high stakes. Well, 505 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: I guess there is a little bit of death in this. 506 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: I think you guys did an astounding job of making 507 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: everyone watching feel how high the stakes are, even though 508 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: again we're talking about about basketball. So talk to me 509 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: a little bit or you're you're clearly you're a basketball fan. 510 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: I am as well. What attracted you to wanting to 511 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: tell this story? Obviously a seminal moment for well, for 512 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: the Lakers, for the city of Los Angeles, and for 513 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: the n b A in general, I'm as a huge 514 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: NBA fan. I was very interested in the character of 515 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: David Stern actually and sort of beginning to see his 516 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: ascension through the organization and how he shaped the next 517 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: from Magic and Larry to Michael, and how how he 518 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: viewed building the league. How did this show come to be? 519 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,719 Speaker 1: Obviously it's based on a book, showtime. What attracted you 520 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: to it and made it a story you wanted to tell? Well, 521 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: a little bit of a history of how it all 522 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: came to be before me. Jim Heckt, who was one 523 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: of our executive producers, read the book, Jeff Berman's book, 524 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: got it to Adam McKay. Adam McKay dug the book, 525 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: he got it to HBO. HBO said, yes, we'll do 526 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: a mini series on this. We need a writer. They 527 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: reached out to Max Bornstein, who I've been writing with 528 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: for about a decade, and then he reached out to me. 529 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: That's sort of how I got involved. Unfortunately, I'm old 530 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: enough to have seen a lot of bad sports theme 531 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: movies TV shows, um where if it's not about one 532 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: particular player, it's usually about the coach or the owner 533 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: or someone and the players are sort of relegated to 534 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: one dimensional caricatures. That's the good one, that's the bad 535 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: when that's the one that's gonna a shot as someone 536 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: is going to jail. And we won the final game. 537 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: Where we lost the final game, that was sort of it. 538 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: This was an opportunity to tell a layered story. It 539 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: was the opportunity to speak to a period of time 540 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: I knew. I understood not just the games, but everything 541 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,479 Speaker 1: that was happening in the world. I remembered the rhythm 542 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: and how people spoke, how people looked, the attitudes of people. 543 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: I was telling my son one day, we were talking 544 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: about professional wrestling, and uh, you know, my son was 545 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: looking at some of the footage I was looking at 546 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: and he was like, oh my god, that's appalling. He 547 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: was looking through today's sensibilities into the past and it 548 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: wasn't that long ago, and I'm trying to explain to 549 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: him the context of how it's different and blah blah blah, 550 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: and all he could see is what he knew. And 551 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to give sort of kind of creative bridge 552 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: to be able to speak to a world that I 553 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: won't say I missed, but I'm certainly and of in 554 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: its own unique way. I just watched the George Carlin 555 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: documentary on HBO. You know, it was another voice of 556 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: that period of time that I remember so clearly, and 557 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: comedy sort of doesn't work that way anymore, and not 558 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: on mass and so the opportunity just to speak to 559 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: a period of time on a subject that I was 560 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: deeply connected to, that was the draw for me. Yeah. 561 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,719 Speaker 1: I have heard that you describe the show as a 562 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: love letter to a period of time, but also to 563 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: the Lakers and to the game. It's fascinating again, a 564 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: layered story. You described it as focus. I mean, well, 565 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: let me ask you this, who is the show about? 566 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: Is it Dr Buss? It's about the organization because everybody 567 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: gets some everybody gets love. So you got Dr Bus. 568 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,959 Speaker 1: Dr Buss and Magic are sort of two halves of 569 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: a whole. And then there's the world that's the extensions 570 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: of those two worlds. You've got from Dr Buss, you've 571 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: got his Emily, you've got the management team and the 572 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: people that he interacts with primarily, and from Magic side, 573 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: you have his family and other players, and you know 574 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: how they interact with him and the little in the 575 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: world that they occupyed the thing, the verb of what 576 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: they do. They played basketball. The management side owns and 577 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: operates the team, so that would be the two halves 578 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: of the whole. But everybody gets enough love that I 579 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: would say it's about the Laker organization as a whole. Yeah, 580 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you're you're the expert without knowing the story, 581 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: and I had not read the book, but I sort 582 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: of understood the show time that it was sort of 583 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: made in Dr Busses image. But I think adding in 584 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: or explaining the stakes of what he was going through 585 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: and the decisions that he made and the choices from 586 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: everyone else essentially in the organization to say, this is 587 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: only gonna work if we build it in his image 588 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: in a way in terms of not just the style 589 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: of play though it was, but also everything else that 590 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: created it an event that is now arguably the biggest 591 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: a basketball game in Los Angeles for the Lakers, is 592 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: arguably the biggest sporting event for a regular season game 593 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: that you could go to maybe the Knicks at Madison 594 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,959 Speaker 1: Square Garden or something like that, but but in a 595 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: particular time. But yeah, yeah, but I think even you know, 596 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: even so today, I mean, having the stars, they're having well. 597 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess Lebron is there now, but it 598 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: becomes an event going to a game. It's not just 599 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: a game. I agree. I mean I think that you know, 600 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: for the Lakers, whether they're good or bad, you know, 601 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: whether they're having a good or a bad season, they've 602 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: built sort of an entertainment infrastructure that it becomes an event. 603 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: Every game becomes an event, is sold out, regardless of 604 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: they play in the worst team in the league or whatever. 605 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,919 Speaker 1: I'd say, A team like the Yankees, you know, sort 606 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,959 Speaker 1: of have that mystique to them to whether they're good 607 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: or bad, you show up and there's this aura of 608 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: what they are that sort of accompanies the experience of 609 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: watching them play. Maybe the next have it, you know, 610 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: I think the Dallas Cowboys have it. Dallas Cowboys. Yeah, yeah, 611 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 1: you know, maybe the Patriots. Those teams that are sort 612 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: of have sort of broken out of the idea of 613 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: sports and into the zeitgeist of pop culture. To me 614 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:55,720 Speaker 1: are the ones that have an extra thing happening. Um, 615 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: how important was it for you to get the characterization's 616 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: right about the people you were covering. I mean, obviously 617 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of discussion about some of the portrayals, 618 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: I would say, most notably Jerry West also Kareem a 619 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: little bit early on in the in the thing, how 620 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: important was it for you and how accurate do you 621 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: think that you all ended up being portraying these these 622 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: legends and the sport. This is what I'll say. We 623 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: did a lot of research with what we had read, 624 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: a lot of books, a lot of articles. Never about 625 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: disparaging anyone. We come from a place of fandom and appreciation, 626 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: you know that said, I'm also very empathetic with the 627 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: idea that if someone was telling the story of Rodney Barnes, 628 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: and certainly of a certain period, and they picked certain 629 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: things and they said, I'm gonna tell oh, that's interesting, 630 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell that story, and I don't get an 631 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: opportunity to sort of net or add all of the 632 00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: various things that were going on in my life in 633 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: my mind at the time to sort of supported that. 634 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: I would feel a way too, you know. So it's 635 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: more of um, it's more of a place of understanding. Again, 636 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: never work to disparage them. Put a lot of work 637 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: and effort into the research that we did, and we 638 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: try to take a year's worth of a basketball season, 639 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: condense it to ten hours. You know, it's very difficult. Yeah, 640 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: you're not going to get like a documentary style thing 641 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: where things are told by effects only. You have to 642 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: dramatize a certain thing in order to make it work, 643 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: and we try to the best of our ability to 644 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 1: do that in a way that is um balanced and so, 645 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, again, empathetic to those guys, right, I certainly 646 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: hear and believe that. I mean, there's a ton of 647 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: love shown for everyone involved. I guess I'm gonna ask 648 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: this in a slightly different way. Is it more important 649 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 1: as a writer on this series to tell the best 650 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: story that you can or to get it right? Right? 651 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,439 Speaker 1: Is such a subjective thing, you know what is right? 652 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: I think you try to tell this the best story 653 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: that you can, for sure, but you also try to 654 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: tell a story that is layered and nuanced and his 655 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,879 Speaker 1: depth and is entertaining the other stuff that goes into 656 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: the gumbo of storytelling. It's a lot of different things, 657 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: of course, being fair and all of those things too, 658 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: But we're making entertainment more so than just spouting facts 659 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: and again right as relative Right, I listened to John Ireland, 660 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: who is the now the voice of the Lakers. He 661 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: and Mason are probably my two favorite l A sports 662 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: people to listen to if I'm driving around picking up 663 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: kids from school in the afternoon. And he loves that. 664 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: I've heard him rave about it, and he's a current 665 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: employee obviously of the Lakers. He said, and it was 666 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: in the middle of a huge compliment, he said. Oh 667 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 1: and by the way, leading up to Boston, the Lakers 668 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: actually won the game before, but he tells in in 669 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: the story that it would be better, right, I assume 670 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: in terms of stakes that they were as down and 671 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,279 Speaker 1: out as possible before they end up beating Boston. Is 672 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: that the thinking that's kind of what I'm talking about. Yeah, 673 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: I would say it's related to that sort of thinking. 674 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,399 Speaker 1: I think when you're trying to tell a story, you're 675 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: trying to manipulate emotions. You can tell a story about 676 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: a boxer, or if you're saying you're doing a thrill 677 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 1: in Manila, you're making a movie about it. Ali one 678 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,760 Speaker 1: fifteen rounds probably in that fight, would it be slightly 679 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: better if you gave if you showed Frasier's punches landing, 680 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,280 Speaker 1: you know, and a little bit more, you know, even 681 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: way so that by the time you get to the 682 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: end that yes, Ali one, But do you want to 683 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: watch a fight that's unusual because Thrill in Manila was 684 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: a great fight. But do you just want to see 685 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,479 Speaker 1: this fight where you have Ali dominating if you're making 686 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: a movie of it, or do you want to make 687 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: it seem as though there's more danger present for Ali 688 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: in that fight in those areas where we may have said, Okay, 689 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: the score was a little bit different or whatever. You're 690 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: trying to emphasize the next moment that you're coming to 691 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 1: that ultimately is going to drive us to the ultimate truth. 692 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: The Lakers won the title and etcetera, etcetera. But the 693 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: journey to getting there for the person that wasn't alive 694 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy nine, it doesn't know the history, It 695 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,919 Speaker 1: doesn't know any of those things that's going on this 696 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: this ride. You want to make it as pleasurable for 697 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,760 Speaker 1: him as you can. Yeah, well, and it It certainly 698 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 1: was that compelling for well, for sports fans and non 699 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: sports fans alike. It's just a great story. I just 700 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: want to ask you, because obviously we employed this, you know, 701 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: slightly different way on the office. The decision to have 702 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: direct addresses to the camera where the characters are sharing 703 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 1: their thoughts. What was the idea behind that or why 704 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: why was that decision made? You know, it's another way 705 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,959 Speaker 1: of it's another way of getting more information out from 706 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: either the scene or more exposition with the character. And 707 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: it's just something that Adam McKay does incredibly well in 708 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: some of his stuff that we utilize in our show 709 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: to do the same thing. We've got a massive cast. 710 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: You've got so many characters and so much narrative real 711 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: estate that you're trying to occupy with all of these 712 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: characters that anytime you get the opportunity to add a 713 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: little bit more so that, you know, to enrich the 714 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: experience of a scene or a moment, that's sort of 715 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:54,919 Speaker 1: what's behind it. Yeah, I felt like especially with the 716 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: scenes with John c Riley and Dr Buss, they really 717 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: helped get in. I had the head of that character 718 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 1: in moments that I felt were both pleasurable and important historically. 719 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: Was he that cash poor? Is that true? There were 720 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: financial issues? There were financial issues. There were financial issues. Yes, 721 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: they were financial issues. It's fascinating to me. Well, you 722 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: had a huge cast, you were a part of it 723 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:27,839 Speaker 1: Maurice stead of Lager Security, Leger Security. Thank you. Brilliant performance. 724 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 1: By the way, how was that like for you being 725 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:36,879 Speaker 1: on camera with all the guys, Well, hey, it was overwhelming. 726 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: It was not something that I requested. The way it started, 727 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,879 Speaker 1: we were working on the show in New York when 728 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: I was working on Wu Tang and Max was working 729 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: on a movie Worth in New York. We would get 730 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,240 Speaker 1: together on a weekends, UH some other folks and start 731 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: working on the show. And I saw my picture up 732 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: on the wall with the other actors, and I'm like, 733 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: what is my picture on the wall? And oh, you'll 734 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: you'll see, You'll see. So when we got to l A, 735 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: I see this character Maurice. Oh you're gonna be Maurice. 736 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: Who the hell is Maurice? I know Cooper and Worthy 737 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: knows who the hell is Maurice. Oh he's security. Gonna 738 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: do one episode and blah blah blah. Then I did 739 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: another episode and then it started to become this thing 740 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: to where when we had to cut a scene but 741 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: we still needed the information, we just sticked ma res 742 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: in and you know in that scene we would compensate 743 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 1: for the thing that we couldn't do anymore. That Scalper's 744 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: one in episode five was really because we didn't have 745 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: time for a bunch of extras and a scalper and 746 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: for Claire to go outside and talk to the scalper 747 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: and get her. So we had her talking to me 748 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: about give these tickets to them when you go outside. 749 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: You know. Every scene that I was in apologized to 750 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 1: the actor I was working with, because he deserved better. 751 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: The first scene was with Adrian Brody. He was an 752 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,240 Speaker 1: Oscar winner, you know, and so it was like Ctera, etcetera, etcetera. 753 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: It was an honor, was intimidating, but it was that's awesome. 754 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: And he, by the way, Adrian Brody is, pat Riley is. 755 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 1: He's great. And I've always been personally fascinated with Riley 756 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 1: and his story and l A to New York to 757 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 1: Miami and so interesting. What surprised you most about the 758 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: reaction to the show? I think the players, some of 759 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 1: the real life folks who judged it the way that 760 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: they did, some of whom didn't watch it first. That 761 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,319 Speaker 1: was a surprise, you know. Other than that, everything else 762 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: sort of kind of was what I expected it to 763 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: be because I knew what we had. I knew we 764 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: put a lot of work into it, but yeah, I 765 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 1: would say the reaction was the only thing that was 766 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,959 Speaker 1: a surprise. I was thinking about and by the way, 767 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 1: my math is not great, but I was thinking about 768 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,439 Speaker 1: the movie Nixon, right. I was thinking about the movie 769 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: Nixon with Anthony Hopkins, and I was thinking about, you know, 770 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: recreating that time period. And I started thinking, well, but 771 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: so much time had passed between Nixon and that movie, 772 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: And then I started thinking. I started doing the math 773 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 1: in my head. I mean, it's been forty three years. 774 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like it, but it's been forty three 775 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: years since that season of basketball happened, which is probably 776 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,880 Speaker 1: longer than the Nixon Between the Nixon movie. It's so 777 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,439 Speaker 1: interesting to me that it's still so present. And maybe 778 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 1: it's because some of those guys are still so such 779 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: big personalities today. There's that. But the thing that always 780 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 1: gets me when we talk about numbers in time, I 781 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,399 Speaker 1: think because it was the turn of the century, when 782 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,800 Speaker 1: you get to the nine the seventies to two thousand, 783 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: for some reason, because it's that, it doesn't seem as 784 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: long as it did if you were saying nineteen, you 785 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: know whatever, There's something about the math. That makes it 786 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: feel like it wasn't that long ago, but it really was. 787 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: And like you said, I think the state of media 788 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 1: keeps the guys present because they work on the liquor 789 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: after show. You still see Norm Nixon, We still see 790 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: magic everywhere Kareem. You know, it's like you see them 791 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,440 Speaker 1: in a way that in the seventies, you know, retired 792 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: guys probably you wouldn't see in the same way because 793 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,320 Speaker 1: you didn't have television and media the way and social 794 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: media they had. They still have a voice, you know 795 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 1: that usually wasn't the case. Um, congratulations on everything. You 796 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,319 Speaker 1: have a number of really interesting projects going back to 797 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,359 Speaker 1: some horror graphic novel stuff, Tales from the Crip with 798 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: Snoop Dogs That sounds so exciting to me. And have 799 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 1: you started working on that? Is that is that going? 800 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,359 Speaker 1: I'm writing the book now, along with a bunch of 801 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: other ones of Blackula and my regular book Philadelphia and 802 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: a lot of vampires, a lot of horror, a lot 803 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: of stuff. That's a lot of fun. It takes me 804 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: back to my childhood. A labor of love more so 805 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 1: than just labor. But Snoop Dogg is fantastic. We talk 806 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 1: all the time. It's great. Oh that's awesome. And I 807 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,879 Speaker 1: I want to say, I think what is so cool 808 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 1: about what you have done and are doing that. You're 809 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: bringing your own cultural experiences to these types of stories 810 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,239 Speaker 1: that that hasn't been done before. And I find that 811 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 1: so bold and courageous and well awesome. Really, so thank you. 812 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. Good luck with all of that. Also, 813 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: I'm a big golfer golf fan myself. You're working on 814 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:49,359 Speaker 1: the Tiger Woods scripted mini series, good old Tiger. Yeah, 815 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,439 Speaker 1: finished the script and finished the Bible and let's see 816 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: what happens. Well. Congratulations on all of it and on 817 00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 1: winning time. Congratulations on that. I can't wait to the 818 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,920 Speaker 1: season two. Right as this is truth has has been ordered, 819 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: it's we're going. I left our writer's room to come 820 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,799 Speaker 1: talk to you. There. You went for one zoom to 821 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 1: the next zoom, so I don't know if I would have, 822 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,000 Speaker 1: but I appreciate you doing it. Thank you so much, Rodney. 823 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,839 Speaker 1: I appreciate your time. Congratulations and good luck. Thank you. 824 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: Look forward to doing it again. Rodney. It was so 825 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,799 Speaker 1: great to talk to you and to get to know 826 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,239 Speaker 1: you a little bit. Thank you for stopping by. I 827 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 1: cannot wait for your Snoop Dog collaboration coming up very 828 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,799 Speaker 1: very soon. I know it is going to be incredible. 829 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: And to those of you out there listening, thank you 830 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Rodney said it best. What we do 831 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,000 Speaker 1: is a labor of love and you know, not not 832 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 1: to be too cheesy, but we get to do it 833 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,600 Speaker 1: because of you. So thanks, I appreciate you listening, and 834 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,640 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another exciting interview and hey, 835 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 1: I think that you're gonna like it. Off the Beat 836 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 1: is hosted an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside 837 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,640 Speaker 1: our executive producer Lang Lee. Our producers are Diego Tapia, 838 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 1: Liz Hayes, Emily Carr, and Hannah Harris. Our talent producer 839 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,320 Speaker 1: is Ryan Papa Zachary. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak 840 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 1: performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode 841 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: was mixed by Seth o'landski