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Speaker 1: Media, So listen, this year is going to be a

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Speaker 1: ton of wild news that is bleak news.

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Speaker 2: Flash like this year's any different.

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Speaker 1: But what I wanted to do this year was not

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Speaker 1: just present to y'all the bleakness. I want to bring

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Speaker 1: to y'all some of the most dopest people I've met

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Speaker 1: over the years that are actually making the world better,

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Speaker 1: because it's really hard to see that sometimes in amidst

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Speaker 1: of all the noise, and even among the people that

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Speaker 1: you know, actually like really outside trying to do good,

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Speaker 1: it's always some sort of asterisk next to their name.

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Speaker 1: I know this firsthand, which we can get into a

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Speaker 1: little later. This series is called Terraform. Now some of

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Speaker 1: y'all may know I have a coffee company.

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Speaker 2: It's called Terraform Cold Grew.

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Speaker 1: But that origin story comes from a poetry book that

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Speaker 1: I wrote called Terraform Building a Livable World, and out

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Speaker 1: of that book has.

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Speaker 2: Formed us equallyps.

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Speaker 1: The last albums I've dropped have been all based around

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Speaker 1: the book Terraform, and what terraform means Terrorform is the

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Speaker 1: process of making a planet and livable. And as I

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Speaker 1: looked around in the world, I'm like, yo, you know

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Speaker 1: this planet is getting less and less livable. So what

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Speaker 1: if we saw our own planet, our politics, our culture,

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Speaker 1: our nations, our environment, our communities, our families, and ultimately

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Speaker 1: ourselves as terraforming projects. So the poetry and those books

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Speaker 1: are around those sort of ideas, and then out of

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Speaker 1: that the Cold Group company. But ultimately it's a call

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Speaker 1: to action. It's a mission build a livable world and

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Speaker 1: imagine a better future. Which is why me and cool

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Speaker 1: Zone Media got along so well, because ultimately this is

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Speaker 1: our hope. We're not just reporting on how the world sucks.

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Speaker 1: We're reporting on ways and people that are actually making

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Speaker 1: it better terraformers. So I'm going to bring you different

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Speaker 1: people that are really outside building.

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Speaker 2: A Liverpool world.

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Speaker 1: As always, you can go to my personal website, prophitpop

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Speaker 1: dot com. You could get the book, you can stream

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Speaker 1: the records. But right now I want to introduce you

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Speaker 1: to my man Shamil. Now, Shamil is the CEO of

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Speaker 1: an org called Search per Common Ground.

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Speaker 2: Backstory with that I was for many years.

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Speaker 1: I went from a fan to an ambassador, to an

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Speaker 1: artist of residence to a board member of an organization

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Speaker 1: called Preemptive Love. Preemptive Love had a very similar vision

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Speaker 1: to Search for Common Grounds. Matter of fact, it is

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Speaker 1: almost like it was. If Preemptive Love did everything right

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Speaker 1: in thirty years, we would look like Search. Preemptive Love

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Speaker 1: was again a peacemaking organization, right who existed in conflict

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Speaker 1: regions wherever there's violence, And if you're a piece building org,

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Speaker 1: that's a little different than peace first response, although that's

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Speaker 1: a part of what you have to do. Sometimes you

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Speaker 1: just got to stop the bleeding before you can broker piece.

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Speaker 1: So we were in and still are in Iraq, Venezuela,

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Speaker 1: the Juadez, the Mexican border, Israel, Palestine, and then was

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Speaker 1: moving into Afghanistan. How you build peace varies based on

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Speaker 1: what the needs are of the community. I've mentioned this

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Speaker 1: org in multi my music, but a lot of my

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Speaker 1: music I just believed in what they were trying to

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Speaker 1: do the way that they were doing it. There was

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Speaker 1: some drama that happened in Preemptive Love that made it

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Speaker 1: to where the org had to merge. And it wasn't

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Speaker 1: that they were not working with refugees. They worked a

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Speaker 1: lot with refugees, Syrian refugees specifically.

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Speaker 2: Problem was internal.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot that happened that eventually we had

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Speaker 1: to take the org and merge it under org that

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Speaker 1: had a much more established infrastructure internally, and that's how

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Speaker 1: we got to search for common ground because what they

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Speaker 1: were doing while we were in five countries, they was

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Speaker 1: in thirty country while we were still ran by our founder,

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Speaker 1: they had gone through two CEO transition, was just doing

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Speaker 1: a lot right, and that's how we.

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Speaker 2: Partnered our up. What they were able to do very well,

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Speaker 2: I'm doing all this just so that we can get

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Speaker 2: to the meet.

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Speaker 1: When we actually talked to Idris or Shamel Idris, that's

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Speaker 1: his last name, what we were doing well was we

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Speaker 1: were telling our story well like people saw and knew

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Speaker 1: exactly what was going on on the ground because we

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Speaker 1: was telling y'all, like, this is what we was doing.

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Speaker 1: So as you know how NGL's work, like, you got

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Speaker 1: to raise money, and that money being raised for us

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Speaker 1: was like, well, it's real simple if people just see

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Speaker 1: what we're doing and do that. So we had a

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Speaker 1: donor base of just like small donors of citizens, community,

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Speaker 1: people that cared about it. We had a pretty big

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Speaker 1: donor list. Where we were not good at was getting

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Speaker 1: the big government grants. So there were certain things that

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Speaker 1: we couldn't do. We loved about Search for Common Ground,

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Speaker 1: which I'm now on the board of. Over there was

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Speaker 1: that they were incredible at getting the big government grants

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Speaker 1: because receipts they were able to put together.

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Speaker 2: For the things that they've done.

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Speaker 1: I mean, by god, they're in Darfur right now, my lord,

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Speaker 1: the part of the Memr civil war down there.

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Speaker 2: Like guess who was at the table broker in that piece.

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Speaker 2: We go talk about it later.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy they would get the government grants and they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't put their logos on stuff because they were like, well,

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Speaker 1: it's really not about us.

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Speaker 2: It's about the peace.

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Speaker 1: It's about the peace building may be ten year programs

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Speaker 1: that they put together, and they felt like, what's lame

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Speaker 1: to like put our logo on stuff and like shove

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Speaker 1: cameras in our workers' faces because that sucks, Like let

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Speaker 1: them just do the work, like it's not about that.

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Speaker 1: They felt like it was sensationalized and it would cheapen

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Speaker 1: the work if we was putting it all on social media,

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Speaker 1: to whereas at primpty level it was like, no, we're

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Speaker 1: trying to celebrate y'all, like y'all doing the real work.

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Speaker 1: You feel me like if people want to be a

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Speaker 1: part of what y'all doing. So there was a mind shift.

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Speaker 1: So we had what they needed and they had what

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Speaker 1: we needed. Anyway, that's y'all hear.

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Speaker 2: From me all the time. Y'all need to hear from Shamille.

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Speaker 1: So people saying, ladies and gentlemen, please say what's up

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Speaker 1: to the homie hero an incredible person who don't like

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Speaker 1: his name on stuff, which is part of what I

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Speaker 1: like about him. Is my man, Shamille, My saying that, right,

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Speaker 1: Shamille or Shamoh, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Shamo Shamo. Okay, I've heard you've heard worse.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard a lot worse. That's fine.

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Speaker 2: I tried to I tried to swahiliad.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 2: So first of all, Happy New Year.

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Speaker 3: Happy New Year too, Happy holidays. Hope you got a

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Speaker 3: good break.

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Speaker 4: I did.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 2: We had a chance to finally kick it in person.

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Speaker 1: Uh this past right before the holidays shut down in

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Speaker 1: New York City with the rest of the board, had

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Speaker 1: a dope little meeting. I got to meet these people

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Speaker 1: in person. Super crazy experience and like I'm like everybody

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Speaker 1: else where, I feel like, why why am I here?

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Speaker 3: Like many.

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Speaker 4: After we broke up, everyone of the on our senior

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Speaker 4: leadership team was like, I love that guy, because you

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Speaker 4: would come in and you know, we'd be having these

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Speaker 4: conversations about all this stuff, complex stuff whatever. You just

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Speaker 4: kind of cut right to the g. You have this

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Speaker 4: like artist's eye yes, enough of something. Yes, Like you

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Speaker 4: would say in like three clear words, but we said

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Speaker 4: poor paragraphs.

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Speaker 3: So I thought that was great.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, that's fun.

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Speaker 1: Man. That's actually kind of what we do here on

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Speaker 1: this show is like, you know, people say a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of you know, blase bla, wootie woop, a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of big terms to try to say something that

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Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, hey, are you are you just saying

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Speaker 1: you don't want to pay for it?

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Speaker 2: That what you're saying, Like, that's all you're trying to say,

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Speaker 2: right is you don't want pay for it?

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Speaker 1: Okay, then say that you know, but yeah, anyway, search

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Speaker 1: for common Ground one of to me, one of the

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Speaker 1: most unique NGOs out there because of one there philosophical

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Speaker 1: approach and to the fact that like if it's a

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Speaker 1: very much if you know, you know type situation, you know,

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Speaker 1: and that's for our community to like, we like stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, Like people like the prophet Lil Wayne. He

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Speaker 1: has a lyric where he said, real g's moving silence

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Speaker 1: like lasagna because the G is silent anyway. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: so like so you know, you real if you move

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Speaker 1: in in silence, like nobody's there's no you know, your

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Speaker 1: logos not on all this stuff, you know, flashy, I'm

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Speaker 1: out here doing the work, you know. And that's what

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Speaker 1: we really loved about search or common ground. And there's receipts,

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Speaker 1: the proofs in the pudding, like this is what we do.

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Speaker 1: Here's examples thirty years of thirty years or forty years,

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Speaker 1: forty years now forty one, god dog, forty years of

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Speaker 1: receipts of experience, of proof that like we're really out

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Speaker 1: here building peace.

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Speaker 2: So I'm done talking.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you a couple questions to introduce you

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Speaker 1: all to the or so that people can see, like

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Speaker 1: really what they're doing out here. So, first of all,

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Speaker 1: this ORG is not necessarily a humanitarian or first response thing,

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Speaker 1: although that's part of what we do. But you your

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Speaker 1: ORG is a peace building organization, that's right. So can

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Speaker 1: you break down to them like what you really mean

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Speaker 1: by that as in terms of it being a distinction

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Speaker 1: from like humanitarian.

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Speaker 4: Sure, well again, well thanks social for having me. I'm

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Speaker 4: here and maybe not as silent anymore about you getting

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Speaker 4: a platform, which is.

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Speaker 3: So Yeah.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's so much going on in the world

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Speaker 4: that people get kind of overwhelmed with all the causes

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Speaker 4: and all the needs and whatever. And I guess the

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Speaker 4: reason prop that doesn't search for common ground is so

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Speaker 4: committed to piece is it's kind of like the foundation

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Speaker 4: for everything else. Think about it like oxygen, Like nobody

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Speaker 4: pays attention to it or recognizes it until it's gone,

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Speaker 4: and then it's the only thing that matters, you know,

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Speaker 4: because of the biggest priority and peace is really trying

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Speaker 4: to create the conditions where you don't have the humanitarian

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Speaker 4: crisis in the first place. And I think one of

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Speaker 4: the things that we've seen over the last twenty years

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Speaker 4: people may or may not. I think people feel this

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Speaker 4: in their gut, but the numbers unfortunately bear it out.

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Speaker 4: The last twenty years, conflict has been going up, humanitarian

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Speaker 4: crisis have been rising every single year, and the gap

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Speaker 4: between the needs that are out there in the world

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Speaker 4: and what we're providing to meet them has also grown

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Speaker 4: every year.

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Speaker 3: So it's totally unsustainable.

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Speaker 4: Right, you got more and more humanitary crises, bigger and

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Speaker 4: bigger gas of unmet crisis and the world needs more

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Speaker 4: than just more humanitarian response. We need that too, But

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Speaker 4: what we really need to do is get ahead of

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Speaker 4: this and prevent more of these crises. And the things

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Speaker 4: that are really driving these humanitarying crises are like climate

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Speaker 4: and conflict.

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Speaker 3: How we deal with conflict, how we deal with our differences.

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Speaker 2: That's brilliant.

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Speaker 1: So so I love it because it's like you when

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Speaker 1: you think about like where the crisis come from, like

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Speaker 1: climate situation is is causing misallocation of resources. There's not

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Speaker 1: a there's not enough food to go around because there's

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Speaker 1: not enough formable ground. So then that means that people

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Speaker 1: are gonna grab for what they can have. And when

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Speaker 1: you start grabbing and building fences around food, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: create violence. Right, Yeah, that's gonna happen, you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying. So if you're talking about environmental justice, if

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Speaker 1: you're talking about you know, food, medical services, all that

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Speaker 1: has to do with the fact that peace is lost.

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Speaker 1: But if you come in, I know what's dope about

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Speaker 1: y'all is again it's a ten year like humanitarian usually

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Speaker 1: is like, let's not the bleeding right now.

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Speaker 2: What you're saying is like, well, let's make sure the

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Speaker 2: bleeding never starts.

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Speaker 1: That's right, you know, And that and that means that

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Speaker 1: there's some really hard conversations, right, and some really hard

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Speaker 1: tactics that again, for you guys, it's at least ten

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Speaker 1: years right when you're going to get to a place.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, when we think about it, we make generational long commitments,

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Speaker 4: so we even go double that's twenty years.

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Speaker 3: It's a generation, which.

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Speaker 4: Doesn't mean it doesn't mean that you don't accomplish things

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Speaker 4: in one year, six months. But in terms of really

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Speaker 4: shifting systems, you know, in terms of really creating piece

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Speaker 4: at scale where it's not that you're not going to

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Speaker 4: have crises. You're still going to have crises, but those

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Speaker 4: crises you can be able to rally to deal with them.

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Speaker 4: You're not going to fall into violence, you know. And

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Speaker 4: it's interesting that you talk about climate that way. You know,

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Speaker 4: we have you know, we've got over a thousand full

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Speaker 4: time piece builders on the front lines in thirty three

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Speaker 4: countries around the world, and in Africa as an example,

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Speaker 4: the one of the biggest conflict dynamics across the entire

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Speaker 4: continent is the farmer herder conflict, which sounds like a

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Speaker 4: small little thing.

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Speaker 3: You got farmers and you have herders. Okay, people don't

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Speaker 3: realize all the way from.

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Speaker 4: West Africa, Nigeria, all the way through to Sudan in

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Speaker 4: East Northeast Africa, one of the biggest conflict dynamics is

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Speaker 4: because of climate.

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Speaker 3: Right you have people who are nomadic, the herders, they've.

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Speaker 4: Got their livestock that they're moving, you know, and those

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Speaker 4: livestock have less and less area to graze in because

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Speaker 4: it's going dry, and so they're.

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Speaker 3: Encroaching more and more on the farm land.

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Speaker 4: And so the farmers who aren't nomadic, they live in

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Speaker 4: their spots, they've got their plot of land, are getting

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Speaker 4: angry at the at the herders. And this is all

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Speaker 4: exacerbated by the fact that a bunch of national boundaries

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Speaker 4: were drawn across that continent, you know, tribal communities and

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Speaker 4: all that kind of stuff on top of it.

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Speaker 3: So like that's a climate right there, you got right there.

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Speaker 3: The only way to.

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Speaker 4: Address that is to get all of those people actually

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Speaker 4: together and have them figure out a solution, not impose

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Speaker 4: them from the top or from outside and the process

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Speaker 4: of bringing people together like that and building enough trust

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Speaker 4: that they're willing to work together on a solution that'll

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Speaker 4: help everybody. That's actually a twenty year process.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it takes a while to let some dude come

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Speaker 1: in here and be like, yeah, what do you know? Yeah, like,

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Speaker 1: what do you really know about what we're going through?

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Speaker 1: And one thing that is true about SEARCH is the

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Speaker 1: fact that like, well ninety percent of the staff are

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Speaker 1: local born and raised, So like, well, actually we do

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Speaker 1: know because we're from here, you know. So I think

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Speaker 1: that that's again a very unique situation. But like in

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Speaker 1: what you're saying, is is there something that we also

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Speaker 1: learned in our in our meeting here was the top down,

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Speaker 1: bottom up approach.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, talk a little bit about that.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, it's really popular to say all changes

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Speaker 4: driven from the bottom up or all change requires good leadership.

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Speaker 3: It's all true. You can't do it. You can't do

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Speaker 3: it just bottom up.

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Speaker 4: You can't do it just top down, right, you know,

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Speaker 4: you need to drive change from the bottom up and

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Speaker 4: from the top down. And so you talked about the teams,

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Speaker 4: the search for common ground teams, the really key thing

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Speaker 4: about the search for common ground teams is two things. Yes,

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Speaker 4: they're local, you already mentioned that one. But really importantly,

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Speaker 4: they're also drawn from the communities in conflict, like so

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Speaker 4: they actually they're not just local, but you've got access

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Speaker 4: to all the major political groups, ethnic groups.

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Speaker 3: You know, if you're dealing with.

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Speaker 4: Conflict between like police and young people in a city

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Speaker 4: anywhere in the world, would help a lot if your

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Speaker 4: team was made up of retired cops, youth activists, former

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Speaker 4: gang leaders who are instead of sitting across from each

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Speaker 4: other seeing each other as the problem, are sitting side

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Speaker 4: by side facing a common problem together. That sounds simple,

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Speaker 4: but as everybody knows, like that takes time. So when

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Speaker 4: you talk and then what they start strategizing about is okay,

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Speaker 4: look because of your unique insight, Because then I say, look,

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Speaker 4: if you use that word, nobody's gonna listen to you

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Speaker 4: in my community. Or you know what, if you can

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Speaker 4: do something in that neighborhood, you're gonna have credibility for years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Or you know what, if you can get that partnership,

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Speaker 3: go for it.

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Speaker 4: Or you know what, if you partner with that guy,

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Speaker 4: nobody's gonna talk to you and you only get those

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Speaker 4: insights by being both local and we call it multi partial,

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Speaker 4: drawn from all of the different parties.

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Speaker 3: Right, You're not some like outside neutral person. You are

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Speaker 3: the community.

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Speaker 4: And so so when you and those are the kinds

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Speaker 4: of people who can talk about top down and bottom

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Speaker 4: up change, they can talk about.

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Speaker 3: What needs to happen in the communities to drive the

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Speaker 3: kind of change.

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Speaker 4: We need, and what needs to happen at the level

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Speaker 4: of politics and powerful institutions to make that change stick.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that's good man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned like a very real situation that hits

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Speaker 1: home in the sense that, like, you know, you asked,

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Speaker 1: like you're trying to broker peace, and like la hood,

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Speaker 1: you want me to sit across the table from a

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Speaker 1: person who quite possibly murdered some of my family members,

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Speaker 1: you know, and of course we don't want more murder

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Speaker 1: to happen, But like, I feel like if I were

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Speaker 1: to like sit down and try to talk peace with

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Speaker 1: this person, I'm spitting on my family member's grade, right,

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Speaker 1: and he looking at me thinking the same thing. So

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Speaker 1: I'm like, if you willing to talk to me, I'm

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Speaker 1: now questioning youry I'm questioning your gangster because I'm like

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Speaker 1: how was you even willing to talk to me because

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Speaker 1: I'm not you know what I'm saying, Like, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't care nothing about your truth until there's too

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Speaker 1: much bloodshed. Right, So there's that hurdle of sort of

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Speaker 1: lived experience that again is so interesting for us too,

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Speaker 1: because I'm like, at the same time, that person sitting

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Speaker 1: across the table from you, man, we was in the

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Speaker 1: same after school daycare, We went to the same head start,

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Speaker 1: you know, probably went the same middle school, probably was

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Speaker 1: on the same league team. Like they're not strangers, you know,

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Speaker 1: Like I you live two streets from me, you know,

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Speaker 1: so in our and our moms probably went to the

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Speaker 1: same church. Like there's this this like thing about community

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Speaker 1: that no matter where you put it, like you said,

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Speaker 1: like nomadic tribes in Sudan, you know, or you know,

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Speaker 1: east side and west side in Los Angeles. It's like tribalism.

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Speaker 1: Tribalism and a fight for resources is a fight for resources.

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Speaker 1: The idea of dignity is still sitting across from there.

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Speaker 1: And it again for me to be willing to talk

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Speaker 1: to you, I need somebody, like you said, I need

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Speaker 1: somebody super certified from my side that I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is my og. I like, I'm gonna listen to you,

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, And they need somebody from

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Speaker 1: their side that likes when we see r ogs talking,

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Speaker 1: it's like maybe I don't this is weird to me,

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Speaker 1: but maybe something's happening here. You know.

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Speaker 4: That's really Look, that's really powerful the way you talk

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Speaker 4: about that, because I don't yet one thing you just

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Speaker 4: triggered from you when you said that that one thing

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Speaker 4: we would never do We would ever push or strong

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Speaker 4: arm or manipulate or like we would never try to

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Speaker 4: get somebody to sit with somebody that they're not willing to. Like,

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Speaker 4: that's not how piece is made. That's that's kind of

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Speaker 4: the worst thing you can do. Like you should really

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Speaker 4: like empathize with or understand these people who who are

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Speaker 4: trying to annihilate you, you know, in every other of life. Right,

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Speaker 4: So that's not So that's a really good point, and

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Speaker 4: that dynamic exists pretty much everywhere where we work. That Yeah,

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Speaker 4: like real hurt and real not just historical but oftentimes

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Speaker 4: like present and ongoing violence and injustice, and so one

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Speaker 4: of the things that we do.

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Speaker 3: You know, we talked about this a little bit when

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Speaker 3: we were together.

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Speaker 4: Like, one of the first things that we do in

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Speaker 4: any community is instead of asking what's going wrong, because

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Speaker 4: everything's gone, there's so much is going wrong that it'll

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Speaker 4: be you'd get overwhelmed by it. In any community that's

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Speaker 4: in conflict, we ask people like, Okay, if if this

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Speaker 4: is an ethnic divide, is there anyone is there anyone

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Speaker 4: in the other ethnicity.

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Speaker 3: Who you actually trust? Or if you're dealing with the

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Speaker 3: corrupt government, you know.

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Speaker 4: Is there one minister or even like somebody who who

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Speaker 4: you actually feel like is trying to serve the people.

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Speaker 4: Or if it's the example that we were just talking

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Speaker 4: about with police, if this is about out of control

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Speaker 4: police force, is there one.

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Speaker 3: Captain or even just a beat cop who you feel

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Speaker 3: like is and to the police to do the same thing.

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Speaker 4: Is there anyone in the community you say, the community

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Speaker 4: won't work with you, they don't want to talk to you.

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Speaker 4: Is there is there anyone that you see playing a

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Speaker 4: positive old community that you that you respect. And one

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Speaker 4: of the things that we found, like one hundred percent

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Speaker 4: of the time prop like one hundred percent of the

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Speaker 4: time in every community. First of all, people appreciate those

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Speaker 4: questions they like not just being talked to like they're

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Speaker 4: a problem. They like being asked their own views. And

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Speaker 4: then one hundred percent of the time you get lots

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Speaker 4: of names. You have lots of names like no matter

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Speaker 4: how bad and unjust, the situation is people like, you

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Speaker 4: know what, there's this one guy, or you know what,

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Speaker 4: there's one organized there's one community organizer that like everyone

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Speaker 4: you know. And those are the people, the one that

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Speaker 4: we gravitate towards. We try to understand what they're trying

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Speaker 4: to make happen, how we can be helpful. Sometimes we

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Speaker 4: share examples which they can take or leave of how

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Speaker 4: people in similar situations around the world have kind of

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Speaker 4: dealt with some similar dynamic system. So you build slowly.

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Speaker 4: That way, you don't just sort of jump in with

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Speaker 4: a solution. And to your point, you got to start

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Speaker 4: with we call it's you know again, it's one of

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Speaker 4: those clunky terms, appreciative inquiry, right, it's a wholeproach. I

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Speaker 4: first came across that term in like a Harvard Business

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Speaker 4: Review article. I had nothing to do with a Warren piece.

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Speaker 4: It was about how you change culture in your company. Okay,

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Speaker 4: and I've read this article and I was like this

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Speaker 4: is actually the best description of what our teams do

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Speaker 4: that I've seen had nothing And so basically what appreciative

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Speaker 4: inquiry says, it's this really well researched field that it says,

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Speaker 4: the worst way to change behavior in your community and

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00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,920
Speaker 4: your company, in your family and whatever, the worst way

438
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 4: to change behavior is to punish bad behavior.

439
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,919
Speaker 3: The best way to change behavior.

440
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:07,480
Speaker 4: Is to identify and amplify and celebrate and incentivize every

441
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 4: step towards the desired behavior, even if it's a tiny step,

442
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 4: even if it's a tiny step. And I've seen this

443
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 4: with my own daughter, Like if if I yelled at

444
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 4: my daughter, you know, for not putting her shoes in

445
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 4: the crate that I got for that specific purpose, it

446
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 4: works a lot worse than if I celebrate her like

447
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,679
Speaker 4: crazy because she put one shoe in today, she's much

448
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 4: more likely to put you and tomorrow anyway. So that's

449
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 4: the approach you take with communities and conflict too, Like

450
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 4: you don't go in and attack people. Whatever you try

451
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 4: to understand, Like even if there's one small step someone takes,

452
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 4: that's what you really amplify. You really amplify the good,

453
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 4: and you feed the good and over time, it builds

454
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 4: a momentum that is powerful and relentless.

455
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 3: Man.

456
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that one cop that like whenever he, you know,

457
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 1: see us on a corner, it's like he wraps us

458
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 1: up or you know, like it's never he's never out

459
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 1: here like being crazy about it. It's like if you know,

460
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 1: if we're selling bootleg DVDs, it's like, all right, Homi,

461
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: how many you got, I'll just buy the DVDs off you?

462
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 1: And you gotta get out of here, man, like you

463
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like just like stuff like that

464
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: to where it's like okay, like I feel you. It's like, man,

465
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: I'm not feel man, how many you need? Okay, give

466
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 1: me this? All right, get out of here, you know

467
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: what I mean? And like those things are different, you

468
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, Like, hey, what you got in

469
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: that backpack?

470
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 2: Don't even tell me? Just give your back you feel

471
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 2: you're like all right?

472
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 4: You know.

473
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: So there's like there's that one dude that like, you know,

474
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: I mean whatever, Like I mean, I don't whatever, but.

475
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 2: I guess you are right.

476
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

477
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's that's good. Now let's get into

478
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: some examples. Now, like you said, thirty three different countries

479
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 1: and every country, Like you said, you said, these are

480
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: like twenty year twenty year at least twenty year processes, right,

481
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,479
Speaker 1: So how you actually implement these lofty ideas are can

482
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: vary as wild as your imagination can go. The two

483
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: that in my head that stick out in my head

484
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: are mem r and was it Nigeria with the soccer

485
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: where was the soccer.

486
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 4: At We've done soccer tournaments in countries all around the world.

487
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 4: Of Congo was where what is with the Democratic Republic

488
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 4: of Congo. It's you know, a huge ninety million people

489
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 4: center of Africa where yeah, the team so yeah, I'm happy,

490
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 4: is happy to tell some of those stories?

491
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 3: Yeah man?

492
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 2: And yeah the TV show they're like yeah, yeah, yeah,

493
00:24:58,480 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 2: tell some stories.

494
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:05,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know in Congo just about yeah, I think

495
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: it was like twenty ten.

496
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 4: There was a terrible thing that very senior un like

497
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 4: the most senior United Nations official in the Democratic Republic

498
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 4: of Congo. She said she called the country the rape

499
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 4: capital of the world, which was a horrible thing to say.

500
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 4: But what she was trying to point out was that

501
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 4: like sexual assault was like off the charts in the country,

502
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 4: and more than half of the assaults and the rapes

503
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 4: were committed by people in uniform, so the police or

504
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 4: the military, you know, abusing the very people they're supposed

505
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 4: to be protecting. So you just sort of imagine how

506
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 4: much anger and hatred and fear community had. And our team,

507
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 4: our Congolese team you know, working there, took what we

508
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 4: call the common ground approach. It's a three step process. First,

509
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 4: you build trust, then you turn that trust into cooperation

510
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 4: that actually makes a difference, and over time that cooperation

511
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 4: can trigger breakthroughs. Right, So what they did to build

512
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 4: trust every community, this is different, just like you're saying,

513
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 4: like it would be different in every community. So in Congo,

514
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 4: teams use soccer tournaments to get the police and young

515
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 4: and young people and people in the community actually doing

516
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 4: things together. It was one of the few things they

517
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 4: would get them to do together that wouldn't have them

518
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 4: fighting with each other or getting into an argument. And

519
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 4: then they turned those into community theater performances where they

520
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 4: would like go into communities and literally in the middle

521
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 4: of town square. They'd like bang on drums and call

522
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 4: people together, would come out of their homes and sit

523
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 4: in the town square and they put on a performance

524
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 4: of a play and the play was kind of dramatizing

525
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 4: what was going on, but with a lot of humor

526
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 4: and stuff between the police and the community. And then

527
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 4: they turned and that was one of the few things

528
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 4: that would get the police and the community kind of

529
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 4: sitting together talking together. After those soccer tournaments, after those performances,

530
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 4: those plays, they would open up conversations, right, and they

531
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 4: start these community dialogues that turn in. So that was

532
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 4: the initial step, just try to get people, just figure

533
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 4: out what's people to sit together, right, and different communities

534
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 4: that different things, but in every community there's some stuff

535
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 4: you can do, cultural events that will get people sitting together.

536
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 3: And then the second step was to turn that into cooperation.

537
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 4: So those conversations they started having, they started talking about

538
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 4: what they could do together to actually improve the situation

539
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 4: between the police and the community members. There were rallies

540
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 4: against sexual assault that some of the police started participating

541
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 4: in that were organized by the communities and some of

542
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 4: the more progressive police units. They agreed the community to

543
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 4: develop scorecards. So all right, let's do this. Let's develop

544
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 4: a scorecard with the community of the kinds of things

545
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 4: that the community would like to see from the police,

546
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 4: and those scorecards will be completed regularly, like every quarter

547
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 4: right where people would rank how the police were on

548
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 4: these scorecards, and the police captains would use those when

549
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 4: they were doing reviews, promotions, act and stuff. So part

550
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 4: of the feedback that they were getting was what does

551
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 4: the community think of you?

552
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 3: Right?

553
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 4: And eventually they did enough of this work that there

554
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 4: was some There were a couple of big breakthroughs. One

555
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 4: of the biggest is some training that was developed out

556
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 4: of this program. This took twelve years prop but some

557
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 4: training that was helped out of this program became mandatory

558
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 4: in the orientation of both the military and the police.

559
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 4: Over two hundred thousand soldiers and police officers two hundred

560
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 4: thousand in the country have now been through that training.

561
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 4: We produced a TV show with the police, Total Fit

562
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 4: likes a drama called Inda Pisa. It's a bad guy.

563
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 4: He used to be a rebel, you know. He goes

564
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 4: to this un program to put his guns down. Now

565
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 4: he wants to serve his community, so he decides he's

566
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 4: going to become a police officer. He becomes a cadet

567
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 4: and the show picks up just as he's graduated and

568
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 4: he's all excited to service community, except it's very real,

569
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 4: it's very pretty. He hasn't been paid for three months.

570
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 4: The community that he wants, he's surrounded by corrupt cops.

571
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 4: The community that he's supposed to serve hates them or

572
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 4: they're scared of them.

573
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 3: And so that follows this guy his life. He's actually

574
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 3: trying to.

575
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: Go be a good Yeah.

576
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, we suck and and and we use that show

577
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 4: to open up discussions all over the country around the

578
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 4: around the program. And so, I mean, the last evaluation

579
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 4: that we did on this, we had levels of sexual

580
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 4: assault in the most the worst areas in the east.

581
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 3: Of the country had dropped by more than fifty percent. Yeah,

582
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 3: the it was cool.

583
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 4: One of the one of the things that the police said,

584
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 4: you know, we had like both written answers and like years.

585
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 4: One of the most common written answers that the police

586
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 4: put in was that people actually call us. Now there

587
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 4: really people call us.

588
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: Now.

589
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 2: We used to be the last people that yeah, I

590
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: don't call it, I don't call lap. I take it

591
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: right now. I called him. Yeah.

592
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 4: So the police were like really, they were like, this

593
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 4: is this is amazing. People actually call us when there's

594
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 4: a problem. So anyway, that's one story. There's another strike

595
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 4: to share with you. I just came back from visiting

596
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 4: our team. I think I mentioned to you when I

597
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 4: saw you in New York. I had just come back

598
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 4: with a couple of the other board members from Kenya.

599
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, oh yeah, yeah yeah.

600
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 4: And like you know, one of the things that's happening

601
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 4: all around the world is, you know, you see more

602
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 4: and more terrorist attacks and attacks by they call them

603
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 4: non state armies, right, so people like you aren't you know.

604
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 4: And so in Keny you had some really bad attacks

605
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 4: from the al Shabab terror group. You know, they blew

606
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 4: up the American embassy and Kenya. They came in with

607
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 4: machine guns and shot up shopping malls, killed so many

608
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 4: people in the country. And oftentimes what happens is that

609
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 4: the government's response to these things in some ways, in

610
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 4: some ways the cure is as bad as the disease.

611
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 3: Right. They're so heavy handed, they come down, they abuse

612
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: the entire population.

613
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 4: They're just cracking down on everybody because they don't know

614
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 4: what to do, right, they don't know how to fight

615
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,719
Speaker 4: these groups. So in Kenya, what they did was they

616
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 4: they realized that these people from al Shabab, from the

617
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 4: terrorist group. They were coming in through the from the shore.

618
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 4: They were pretending to be fishermen. And there's something there's

619
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 4: night fishing.

620
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 3: People go out. It's a big part of.

621
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 4: The economy along the coast of Kenya is people go

622
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 4: out fishing at night, they bring the patches in at

623
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 4: dawn and they sell them at the market. Right. Well,

624
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 4: when the government realized that people were posing as night

625
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 4: fishermen so they could infiltrate the country with their weapons,

626
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 4: they just banned it. They banned night fishing. They shut

627
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 4: down night fishing. Yeah, and they destroyed the economy basically

628
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 4: of that whole coastal area as a way to stop terrorism.

629
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 4: And you can imagine what happened, right Like, people lost

630
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,239
Speaker 4: their jobs, they got pissed off. There was a lot

631
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 4: of clashes between the police and the communities along the shore.

632
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 4: This went on for six years and are incredibly there's

633
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 4: a woman there named Judy Kamamo who runs all of

634
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 4: our programs there Kenyan women who used to work for

635
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 4: Mongarima Tai, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for her

636
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 4: Kenyan environmental activism. Anyway, so Judy had this idea. She

637
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 4: started shuttling back and forth between the police, the fishermen,

638
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 4: the youth groups. She went to some of the human

639
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 4: rights organizations that were saving.

640
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 3: All their money to sue the government.

641
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 4: Others of them were using their money to organize protests,

642
00:31:58,280 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 4: and she said, look, why don't you put some of

643
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 4: them money for protests and lawsuits into an idea that

644
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 4: I've got here where we could try to build some

645
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 4: trust between the police and the community and come up

646
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 4: with a solution that would allow us to get the

647
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 4: fishing started again, but would actually prevent some of this terrorism.

648
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 4: And long story short, it took about six six and

649
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 4: a half months of shuttling back and forth creatively listening,

650
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 4: lots of listening, listening with a lot more listening than talking,

651
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 4: and eventually Judy was able to get these groups coming

652
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 4: together and they came up with an idea of getting

653
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 4: these electronic scan cards, Like if you're going to fish

654
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 4: off the coast of Kenyon, you have to be registered anyway, right,

655
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 4: but there was never any way kind of verifying it.

656
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 4: So they got these scan cards that they would say, Okay,

657
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 4: if you're a fisherman and you get registered, you get

658
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 4: this little card, and all the police are equipped with

659
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 4: little scanners and they can just scan. As long as

660
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 4: you've got a card, you're legity. That simple solution only

661
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 4: came about when the groups started talking to each other.

662
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 4: That Judy had brought together the fishermen collective, the youth groups,

663
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 4: the police themselves, and they reopen night fishing after six years,

664
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 4: So the whole economy was revived basically because one.

665
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 3: Woman was like, this is crazy. You know, where nobody's

666
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 3: being served.

667
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: You know, you're driving us into the hands of the

668
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: very people that's trying to Yeah, and that's something that's

669
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: actually leads me to the next thing where it's like,

670
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes it's I forget the name of the

671
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: Harvard study, but like when the powers that be come

672
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: cracked down so hard, so hard that you eventually almost

673
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: guarantee the birth of a new resistance or terrorist group,

674
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Like, it's it's almost guarantee.

675
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: It's like you just you just prove their point by

676
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: coming down.

677
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

678
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is like a I'm been having this conversation

679
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 4: with a lot of you know, Israelis in supports of

680
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 4: Israel lately in terms of how the war's.

681
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: Going on right now.

682
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: That's exactly what I was gonna ask you.

683
00:33:54,120 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, if it is, it is not, let's say,

684
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 4: with the word's going on, even if you're only concerned literally,

685
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 4: even if your only concern was israel security, even if

686
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 4: you had no concerns, no humanitarian concerns, no concerns about

687
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 4: human rights, even if your only concern was I got

688
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 4: to assure the security of Israel, if that was all

689
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 4: you cared about, this would not be the way to

690
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 4: get there. Yeah, because it has never been the case

691
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 4: that a massive military assault on a terrorist group or

692
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 4: a violent extremist group that caused huge civilian casualties and

693
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 4: did the threat.

694
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 3: What it does is it metastasizes it.

695
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 4: It either like he says, it either gives birth to

696
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 4: Hamas two point zero, whatever that would look like, or

697
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 4: it sort of disperses it and you get a lot

698
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 4: more extremism, you know, and violent extremism that targets people,

699
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 4: you know.

700
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 3: Israeli's Jews, others outside of Israel.

701
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 4: And that's a big fear that of God right now

702
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 4: in terms of where this is all heading and saying

703
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 4: that it is not, you know, intended to sort of

704
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 4: negate in any way that the Israelis need to be secure,

705
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 4: But it's just like it's interesting because there's this you know,

706
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 4: the UN Development Program is like the biggest agency in

707
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 4: the UN. So this is the people doing development work

708
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 4: all around the world. And they put out too, like

709
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 4: the biggest reports on what drives people into violent extremist groups.

710
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 4: And they were particularly studying the case of all the

711
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 4: African nations and I think it called it was called

712
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 4: the Pathway to Extremism then it was. They did a

713
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 4: study in twenty seventeen, and then they repeated it I

714
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 4: think five years later and five years later in twenty

715
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 4: twenty two, and they had the same and this is

716
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 4: huge research, right, and they said, look, there are lots

717
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 4: of different factors and lots of different places, but the

718
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 4: number one most common experience of young people who joined

719
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 4: violent extremist groups was being mistreated by security forces. Yeah,

720
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 4: like that, And that goes to the Kenya example too,

721
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 4: like those people who were being you know, getting into

722
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 4: street protests and being beaten up by the police because

723
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 4: the night fishing had been closely Like you said, they're

724
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 4: much more like if I'm an el Schabadev recruiter, that's

725
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 4: right territory for me.

726
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 3: I can get those guys.

727
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: You know, see what they're doing to you. People don't

728
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: care about you, Yoe. Yeah.

729
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: Man, So uh, I'm I'm gonna dial up the difficulty

730
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: of the questions now, you know, because we've been we've

731
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: been softballing you.

732
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 2: So now again in the context of like.

733
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: Kaza and Israel, which like, obviously there's certain things you

734
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: can't talk about because it's still going on right now.

735
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying as far as like what

736
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: exactly the step is and the hope for when the

737
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: bombing stops, like what we're supposed to do.

738
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 2: But I think that there are times.

739
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: That there there are moments where like the right and

740
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: wrong is pretty clear, like this, who's this is wrong?

741
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 1: You know? And to be still in a position of

742
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: saying peace building, it's like to keep people coming to

743
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: the table, there may be some things that you can't

744
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: say out loud for the purpose of keeping them at

745
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: the table. At the same time, the other people you're

746
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 1: trying to keep to the table is looking at you,

747
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: going like, but you know this is wrong, right And

748
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: with something like like you said, with something like the

749
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: response of of the Nation of Israel to this situation,

750
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: it's like, well, this is tactically, pragmatically and humanitarian, like

751
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: this is wrong, you know now you know this is

752
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: the Hamas is a whole other conversation I'm talking about,

753
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: like where we are right now, and like you said before,

754
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: which you told us earlier, where it's like, well, we

755
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: were no closer to a two state solution or a

756
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: peace on October sixth than we were October seventh. Like

757
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: there's like there was we were, we wasn't making no

758
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: progress before, you know what I'm saying. And when you

759
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: listen to the leaders of Hamas, they're like, our biggest

760
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: thing was like the world stopped talking about us, like

761
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: people stopped caring about our situation, Like y'all just like

762
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: everybody's normalizing with Israel. But when ten years ago you

763
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: were saying they need to figure out this situation, now

764
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: y'all not worried about it. So we was like, well,

765
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: how do we get y'all to still talk about us,

766
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: you know? And then in the middle of all that,

767
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: twenty one thousand people are dead, the hospitals failed, there's

768
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: no you know what I'm saying, Like, there's there's all

769
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: this carnage that happens in the middle of that to

770
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: where anyone with a heart, like you say, anybody with

771
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: a heart could be like this, this, I mean, this

772
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: is wrong, Like how do you stay at the table

773
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: or yeah, how do you stay at how do you

774
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: not you jamil? But as an org how do you

775
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: stay at the table? How do you stay in a

776
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: peace building when in your heart there is something that's like, well,

777
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: this is wrong, you.

778
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 4: Know in the all right, our identity, yeah you were

779
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 4: you were nice in your introduction to me of sort

780
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 4: of saying that I'm you know, I don't put myself

781
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 4: out there as much or whatever. But that's that's not

782
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 4: just an issue of being sort of humble, like, yeah,

783
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 4: our power is our identity, and our identity isn't just

784
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 4: because I'm the CEO. In each place where we're working,

785
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 4: our identity is a multi partial team that's drawn from

786
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 4: the community. And they're not doing what they're doing out

787
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 4: of charity. This is life and death for them and

788
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 4: all the places we're working. So when you ask that

789
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 4: really powerful question, just now imagine my Israelian pasting and

790
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 4: colleagues sitting here right and the question is, how the

791
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 4: hell are you all willing to do anything together? Right

792
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 4: in the midst of what's going on, shouldn't you be

793
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 4: calling it out? And you know, these are the hardest times.

794
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 4: The power of work, not surprisingly, is kind of the

795
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 4: most invisible when you're in the midst of massive, horrible,

796
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 4: unacceptable violence and people get really I mean, look, I

797
00:40:55,640 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 4: don't think that. Let me start from this place. There

798
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 4: are two ways to drive change. I think there are

799
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 4: probably a million ways to drive change, but there are

800
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 4: two ways to drive change.

801
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 3: What I want to what I want to share.

802
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 4: There's an adversarial approach, which basically says, I'm going to

803
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 4: find everyone who agrees with me, and I'm going to

804
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 4: identify everyone who disagrees with me on this issue, and

805
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 4: I'm going to organize.

806
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 3: Myself with the first group against the ladder group. We're

807
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 3: going to go to more literally or figurative.

808
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 4: And that's an adversarial approach, and it's a wind lose approach, right,

809
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 4: and it's it can be effective in a lot of places.

810
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 4: The other approach to driving change is I'm going to

811
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 4: take an issue I really care about, and I'm going

812
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 4: to find out everybody who has a stake in how

813
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 4: that issue plays out. Everybody, including the people who most.

814
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 3: Disagree with me.

815
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then I'm going to figure out how to

816
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 4: build trust between them so that we can come up

817
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 4: with a solution where everyone's dignity is respected. Now it

818
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 4: might sound like I'm avoiding your question, but I'm jumping

819
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 4: to the end state, which is as really as Palestine

820
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:00,720
Speaker 4: is ant going anywhere.

821
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're not going anywhere.

822
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 4: This is where they're going to be, And so I

823
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 4: would not push anyone And right now it's kind of

824
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 4: the hardest time to get Israelis and Postings to do

825
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 4: anything together. We would have pushed them to do together,

826
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 4: but we are staying in very close touch with our

827
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 4: teams and then without our partners to provide whatever we

828
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 4: can to sustain them and to make sure their dignity

829
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 4: is intact and that their voices are being heard. And

830
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 4: as soon as the openings are there for us to

831
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 4: start building, we're going to start helping them to build.

832
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 4: But that twenty year clock we talked about is going

833
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 4: to start again when the guns fall silent. That's what

834
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 4: violence does. Like you can have decades, you can have

835
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 4: decades of development that are wiped out in weeks of

836
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 4: vinyl conflict. Yeah, that's why we when we start we

837
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 4: talk about peace being the foundation, being like oxygen, everything else,

838
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 4: everything else depends on it.

839
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 3: So you know, I don't know if I answer your question,

840
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 3: but it's it's you know, we could we could spend.

841
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 4: A lot of time with me issuing statements about Israel

842
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 4: and Gaza right now, but frankly might It's not that

843
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 4: they're irrelevant. People need to know that you actually really care,

844
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 4: You give it damn about their dignity and their humanity,

845
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 4: and that's really important. And if there's going to be

846
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 4: a time where we can create a future where that

847
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 4: both Israelis and Pausines can live in real dignity and security,

848
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 4: that's going to have to be created by them collaboratively,

849
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 4: and we are unfortunately decades away from that happening now.

850
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 2: Nah, thank you.

851
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 1: That's great because it does sort of get you out

852
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: of the polarization loop because there is something that's like,

853
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: in some senses, it's like, well, we're at the table.

854
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: We're here because.

855
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 1: Well the violence is wrong as we're here about you

856
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, Like nobody wants they babies to

857
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: die like this. I mean, that's nobody wants their babies

858
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,240
Speaker 1: to die. So, like you said, I can issue statements,

859
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 1: I could rally around the team, or I can say

860
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 1: what you said, which I think is beautiful. It's like,

861
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: who's invested in this, Who's really invested in this? And

862
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: let's build trust around this and have a conversation around

863
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: providing dignity for the people invested in here. And like

864
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 1: you said, once the shooting stops, then the other things happen.

865
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: So like you know, without without being too trivial, there's

866
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: a man out here named Big U former Rolling sixty crip, notorious, notorious,

867
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: notorious anyway, he started a football team league for like

868
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: Pop warner It's just you know Crenshaw Cougar's you know

869
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: what I'm saying to where it's like I am you

870
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: all know what's said.

871
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 2: I'm from.

872
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 1: I have sworn enemies, don't get me wrong. You know

873
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, like they're there are I am a

874
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 1: crip like that. I don't know what I was able

875
00:44:59,400 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: to say.

876
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 2: I'm a crip. You know what I'm saying.

877
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: But our children should be able to play outside, and

878
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: it's just say it is what it is. Our children

879
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: should be able to play outside, you know. And over

880
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: the years, like when I did finally I get a

881
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: chance to meet him. It was in passing because since

882
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: I didn't live on that side of town, I wasn't

883
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 1: really a part of a lot of stuff they did.

884
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 2: I lived in the Latino community, but I was.

885
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 1: A part of intervention programs that were inspired by him,

886
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: you know, and was able to say, hey, man, like

887
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 1: I lived, I lived with the Latinos, but they was

888
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: inspired as Yeah, so can.

889
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 3: I ask you a question of that? So like before

890
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 3: he did that, would you have ever guessed that he

891
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 3: would do that? Or would anyone never a million years?

892
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 3: I feel like this is what this is the thing about.

893
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 4: Let's take this to interid Pals sign again if we

894
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 4: want to stay on that hard topic, like, yeah, there's

895
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 4: a lot of things I don't know, and people who

896
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 4: predict the future of this conflict, you know, whatever moral

897
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 4: power to them. But there's one thing I know, which

898
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 4: is that when peace comes here, it's going to be

899
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 4: negogostiated by people you never would have expected, agreeing to

900
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 4: things that you never would believe they would have agreed to.

901
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 4: And we saw that between the British government and the

902
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 4: IRA and people forget the IRA was bombing hotels, they

903
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 4: were bombing they set off. You know, I saw that

904
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 4: between the FARC rebel movement and the Colombian government after

905
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 4: fifty years of civil war, we said, you go out

906
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 4: down the list. Even even in this conflict right between,

907
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 4: you know, when we're being an Arafat signed the Oslo Accords.

908
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 4: Like everything that's being said about Hamas right now was

909
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 4: set about the PLO.

910
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: Got to be a ploy listener as We have an

911
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: episode coming up about that backstory of the PLO and

912
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: the Oslos.

913
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 2: But I'm gonna do that history.

914
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 4: But yeah, go on, yeah, so and and and you know,

915
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 4: the policy and authority which is in the West Bank

916
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 4: is the descendants of the PLO. That's what the PO

917
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 4: turned into when they signed a peace agreement and they

918
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 4: said were laying down our weapons. Now we're going to

919
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 4: administer the West Bank. Right And you take that model,

920
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 4: and no one's saying that there they've turned violent. They

921
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 4: haven't even through all of what's been going on. You know,

922
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 4: you take that model and you compare it to a

923
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 4: model of a military attack when the military, when there's

924
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 4: really military went into Lebanon to get the PLO out

925
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 4: of be Root, which is where they were quartered for

926
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 4: a while. That massive military invasion led to the rise

927
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 4: in Hesbola, which now is seen as a bigger threat

928
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 4: than anyone else. It's like what you said earlier, like that,

929
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 4: if I'm not saying that military action is you know,

930
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 4: you never people never use military actions. I don't know,

931
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 4: but I will say that when you're dealing with an

932
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 4: extremist group, a group that's using violent needs to pursue

933
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 4: political ends, right, and they're embedded in a community, any community,

934
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 4: if you're going to use military tactics that kill a

935
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 4: lot of civilians in that community, it's inevitable that you're

936
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 4: going to create for what you seek to destroy.

937
00:47:58,200 --> 00:47:58,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

938
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: Man, even today the uh there was a leader of

939
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: MOSTA got popped in Lebanon today.

940
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 2: So we'll see what comes out. We'll see what comes

941
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 2: out from it.

942
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: Uh But yeah, I think Okay, So lastly, we've been

943
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: dancing around it, or not dancing around it.

944
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 2: We've actually been defining it this whole time.

945
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 1: But it's this last term that has really stuck out

946
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: for me, which is multi partial and multi partial is

947
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 1: not neutral, right, it's not this you know, disinterested. I

948
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 1: think a lot of times people say, well, like I

949
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: want I'm neutral in this situation, and it's like, well,

950
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: that's doesn't that don't capture it? Like neutral don't help

951
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying.

952
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 3: No, they are I love you know this is this

953
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 3: is our core identity.

954
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 4: Yes, and it's and it's you know, people hear the

955
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 4: term impartial or neutral and they think, oh, you're like

956
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 4: a third party arbitrator, Like you're coming from the outside

957
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 4: and you hear the different proops and you ormediate that's

958
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 4: not who we are, like they're there. There's six things

959
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 4: about being multipartial that I think are uniquely powerful. First,

960
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,399
Speaker 4: there's real humanity in it. We were just talking about

961
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 4: it with Israel Plisin. You could talk about in La

962
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 4: with communities. You were just talking about, like, there's a

963
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 4: real humanity when the team is not only local but

964
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 4: represents the divided communities. That means that when they're they're

965
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 4: they're not they're not detached about what's going on. They're

966
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 4: directly feeling it. Their families are future is at stake.

967
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 4: It's a life and death thing for them. So there's

968
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 4: a humanity to it. Second, there's a credibility to it.

969
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 4: You've got unique access and convening power. When if your

970
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 4: team again includes like former youth activists and leaders, former

971
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 4: gang members, retired cops or whatever, and you're trying to

972
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 4: deal with police community violence, there's going to be unique

973
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 4: credibility to that team if they could ever create themselves

974
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 4: as a real team.

975
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's there's wisdom. And this is where what you

976
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 3: were talking about.

977
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 4: Before, Like this, this relationship between justice and peace I

978
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 4: think is really misunderstood, really misunderstood. I think the notion

979
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 4: that piece is just you know when Martin Luther King

980
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 4: said that piece is not just the absence of tension,

981
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:07,760
Speaker 4: but the presence of justice.

982
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 3: Like, I don't think that. I think when you have

983
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 3: people who.

984
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 4: Represent the different communities themselves, they understand that you can't

985
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 4: get justice without peace, and you can't get peace without justice.

986
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 3: Right.

987
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 4: And it can be hard to say this because it

988
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 4: seems like you're letting oppressors off the hook. But unjust

989
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 4: systems I was always inspired by by Mendela and King

990
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 4: and Tutu and James Baldwin evenough also like who understood

991
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 4: or Gandhi. They understood that unjust systems trap everyone. Yes,

992
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 4: which is not the same thing as saying they oppress

993
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 4: everyone equally. That would be really obscene, but like they

994
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 4: we know that's not the case, but they limit everybody,

995
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 4: and and they what all of those activists created was

996
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 4: a future that uplifted everyone's dignity and humanity. It didn't

997
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 4: just flip the power tables, didn't just okay, you oppressed

998
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 4: this to the group. Now the other group's going to

999
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 4: be in charge. So there's wisdom. There's wisdom. That's the

1000
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 4: third thing's humanity, credibility, wisdom. The fourth thing is pragmatism.

1001
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 4: Like you know, there are all these international advocates people

1002
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 4: issuing statements on the in Israel Paleston.

1003
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 3: You just put your finger on it.

1004
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 4: We're always going to defer to what our Israelian Palasinian

1005
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 4: team jointly is willing to say and do. And I'm

1006
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 4: not going to override that by saying but wait, our

1007
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 4: organization has to say this, whether or not you think

1008
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 4: it's no. We either say things because they think we

1009
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 4: should say them, or we keep our mouth shut because

1010
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 4: they say keep your mouth shut. We're working for something right,

1011
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 4: And so there's pragmatism. In that fifth there's authenticity and

1012
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 4: I love this. You can't create a more inclusive world

1013
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 4: with more like exclusivist advocacy. You can't create a cooperative

1014
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 4: role through adversarial advocacy, like you really align your means

1015
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:43,439
Speaker 4: and your ends right like you Gandhi's whole thing about

1016
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 4: be the change you want to see in the world.

1017
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 4: There's real authenticity in that because you're not saying, hey,

1018
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 4: we're going to get to this peaceful place, but the

1019
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 4: way we're going to get there is really adversarial, and

1020
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 4: naturally that doesn't work.

1021
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: It doesn't.

1022
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 4: And the sixth thing is there's a real bias towards action,

1023
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 4: like when you multi partial, when your team as local

1024
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 4: and from the communities, they don't have a lot of

1025
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 4: patience for.

1026
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 3: Just having talk shops.

1027
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 4: They're like, look, I'm a dialogue is necessary, but it's

1028
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 4: totally insufficient.

1029
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 3: You've got you need dialogue to understand where people are

1030
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 3: coming from.

1031
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 4: But if that doesn't translated into action that's meaningful to people,

1032
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 4: that actually meets communities' needs and demands, people can get

1033
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 4: really negative about dialogue. You see this in the Middle

1034
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 4: East about peace process like a dirty word because people

1035
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 4: are like, you know what, we've been there, We've done

1036
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 4: that in that Yeah, we've done that anyway, those all

1037
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 4: those things are all those are like to me. Those

1038
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 4: are like the power power, themes of multi partiality, of humanity, credibility, wisdom, pragmatism, authenticity,

1039
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 4: and this like bias towards action.

1040
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 2: Are yeah, beautiful. It's peace possible, It's.

1041
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 3: Inevitable, but not without a hell of a lot of work. Right.

1042
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 3: I will tell you one thing.

1043
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 4: When I was, you know, sister Helen Praison, she she okay,

1044
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 4: so like the author of Dead Men Walking and the

1045
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 4: Catholic nun who's she is now she's now accompanied six

1046
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 4: men to their death and the uh leading anti death

1047
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 4: penalty activists in the country probably, And I had the

1048
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 4: honor to meet her recently, and uh somebody said this

1049
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 4: is also hopeless, Like what can we do? And I

1050
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 4: can never channel her? She used, played you should I

1051
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 4: just send you the audio what she said. But she

1052
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 4: just said, she said, just do one thing. She said,

1053
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 4: when you, when you, because when you're standing on the

1054
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 4: sidelines and you're just watching how horrible everything is, you

1055
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 4: just go into despair and cynicism. But when you do

1056
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 4: just one thing, no matter how small it is, even

1057
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 4: if it's even if it's like just very little. It

1058
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:10,720
Speaker 4: only makes a little change in your own little community

1059
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 4: with one person. You're actually releasing an energy into the

1060
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 4: community that gathers momentum, right, and you generate hope in

1061
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 4: yourself and in others when you do that one thing,

1062
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 4: and you can never understand like how far that hope

1063
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 4: is actually going to go.

1064
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, pieces possible as long as we work for it.

1065
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 4: You don't just and I think she said to the

1066
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 4: one of the first men, one of the first men

1067
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 4: who she accompanied to the.

1068
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 3: Death chamber.

1069
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 4: They had an argument, a big argument when she was

1070
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 4: trying to convince him or encourage him to acknowledge what

1071
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 4: he had done to seek forgiveness. And he said, well,

1072
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 4: all you do is pray, And she said, no, no, no,

1073
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 4: I pray and I work. I pray and I work.

1074
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 4: So anyway, pieces possible. But only if we work.

1075
00:54:58,760 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 3: We pray and we work.

1076
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: Hollyluit, dud okay, you are preaching, mail be preaching, y'all.

1077
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 2: Man, Hey, thank you so much for your time.

1078
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 3: Dude.

1079
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 1: I know you're super busy. It's like there's so much

1080
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: happening on the planet right my lord, Like I know

1081
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: we're involved in Sudan right now, like I know there's

1082
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 1: just so much happening right now. Thank you for taking

1083
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: your time to holler at us in and present this

1084
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 1: to us.

1085
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me proud, and thanks for

1086
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 4: being such a supportive search for Coming ground.

1087
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:31,399
Speaker 3: It's great to have you on board.

1088
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:37,720
Speaker 1: Of course, guys, please go to the website sf CG

1089
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: dot org. Uh will take donations and uh yeah so

1090
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, please tap in with us man. Like again,

1091
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: it's people out here, Like I know how bleak the

1092
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 1: world is, but it's people out here actually on the

1093
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 1: ground doing the good work.

1094
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 3: Thanks thanks man, pace B to you.

1095
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,399
Speaker 1: All right now, don't you hit stop on this pod.

1096
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:13,800
Speaker 1: You better listen to these credits. I need you to

1097
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 1: finish this thing so I can get the download numbers. Okay,

1098
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: so don't stop it yet, but listen. This was recorded

1099
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:26,959
Speaker 1: in East Lost Boil Heights by your boy Propaganda. Tap

1100
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 1: in with me at prop hip hop dot com. If

1101
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: you're in the Coldbrew coffee we got terraform Coldbrew. You

1102
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: can go there dot com and use promo code hood

1103
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,320
Speaker 1: get twenty percent off get yourself some coffee. This was mixed,

1104
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: edited and mastered by your boy Matt Alsowski.

1105
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:44,720
Speaker 2: Killing the beast softly.

1106
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 1: Check out his website Matdowsowski dot com. I'm a spell

1107
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 1: it for you because I know M A T T

1108
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:58,359
Speaker 1: O s O W s ki dot com Matthowsowski dot com.

1109
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 1: He got more music and stuff like that on there,

1110
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,959
Speaker 1: so gonna check out. The Heat Politics is a member

1111
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:08,439
Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media, Executive produced by Sophie Lichterman, part

1112
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 1: of the iHeartMedia podcast Network. Your theme music and scoring

1113
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: is also by the one and overly mattow Sowski. Still

1114
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 1: killing the beats softly, So listen. Don't let nobody lie

1115
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 1: to you. If you understand urban living, you understand politics.

1116
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 1: These people is not smarter than you.

1117
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 2: We'll see y'all next week.