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Speaker 1: When the pandemic first hit and we realized it was

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Speaker 1: spreading like wildfire and everybody was starting to get stay

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Speaker 1: at home orders. I was telling folks, Listen, things might

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Speaker 1: get hot of hand. You probably need to stock up

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Speaker 1: on groceries because I think everybody's gonna lose it and

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Speaker 1: everybody's gonna hit the grocery store and buy up everything.

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Speaker 2: So, yes, prepare yourself.

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Speaker 1: That's what I told my parents, my friends, my sisters,

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Speaker 1: everybody same.

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Speaker 3: Same. If you listened to LAB twenty three, we kind

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Speaker 3: of knew some things were in the pipeline, yes, and

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Speaker 3: so I think based on that, I really tried to say, Okay,

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Speaker 3: what do I need from the grocery store, But bruh,

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Speaker 3: the grocery store basically turned into supermarket suite.

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Speaker 1: Yes, people were buying everything toilet paper, paper, towels. I

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Speaker 1: didn't see that for months and months and months. So

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Speaker 1: I felt lucky that we had stocked up before everything

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Speaker 1: started getting crazy. But then there was also just food missing. Yes,

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Speaker 1: there was no flower, there was no chicken. I remember

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Speaker 1: you being very upset about bacon. Bacon is very important

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Speaker 1: to me. I just want to be clear about that.

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Speaker 1: And when I got to the grocery store, there was none,

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Speaker 1: and I almost had a full blown meltdown in the

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Speaker 1: grocery store. I was like, excuse me, sir, is there

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Speaker 1: any more on the bot and it was like, no,

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Speaker 1: there isn't any more in the back.

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Speaker 2: We're in a pandemic.

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Speaker 3: Girl.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, right, try to try to, try to, try,

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Speaker 2: try to.

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Speaker 3: It's really crazy because depending on where you lived, different

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Speaker 3: people were saying different things were missing, and it was

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Speaker 3: almost like overnight, something that you love could become a

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Speaker 3: high value item in this supermarket suite. Everybody's going forward,

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Speaker 3: They're all put it in their carts, and by the

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Speaker 3: time you get there, it is no more.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: So we reached out to y'all because we wanted to

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Speaker 1: hear from you and know what your experience was being

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Speaker 1: in the grocery store during the pandemic and what items

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Speaker 1: you noticed that were gone.

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Speaker 5: So I've been going to grocery stores trying to find

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Speaker 5: ginger beer and I've found so many stores in Durham,

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Speaker 5: and for some odd reason, ginger beer be off the

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Speaker 5: shelf as well as flower and fish fries.

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Speaker 6: They's a pepperoni shortage period, but I try to use

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Speaker 6: turkey pepperoni, and that's not available. Chickpea flour hasn't really

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Speaker 6: been there for a while. At Trader Joe's, they didn't

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Speaker 6: have nutritional yeats.

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Speaker 7: I'm Latino and kind of my go to. I met

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Speaker 7: Keffadilla with the side of beans, and I went to

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Speaker 7: my grocery store and there were literally like no beans

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Speaker 7: other than red kidney beans, and they were like absolutely

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Speaker 7: no corn or flower dorothias.

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Speaker 5: It's really interesting to me that if I go to

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Speaker 5: what I perceived to be a more affluent neighborhood, there

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Speaker 5: is always cleaning supplies.

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Speaker 1: It kind of blew my mind some of the things

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Speaker 1: I didn't notice that where they were gone.

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Speaker 3: Y'all were eating a lot of beans. Somebody said, canned beans,

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Speaker 3: frozen beans. I don't even think I buy frozen beans.

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Speaker 3: Somebody else said, what are you doing with all the lagoons?

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Speaker 3: There were no lentils. Did you at least have a

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Speaker 3: good recipe.

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Speaker 1: I won't struggle in this because I don't eat none

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Speaker 1: of that. But y'all also said that y'all were missing

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Speaker 1: chicken red meat.

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Speaker 3: That's where you're gonna get, my friends.

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Speaker 2: Even the imitation meat was going off the shelves.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So some of the people that listen to the show

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Speaker 1: are vegan or vegetarian, and they were like, all of

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Speaker 1: my vegan.

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Speaker 2: Staples were gone.

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Speaker 1: All the meat eaters came and were like, well, if

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Speaker 1: I can't get ground beef, might as well get this

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Speaker 1: beyond meat over here.

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Speaker 3: But I was also surprised by some of the stuff

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Speaker 3: that I found. Yeah, you know, our friend from grad

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Speaker 3: school to Mika said she couldn't find soy sauce.

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Speaker 2: Right, what are y'all doing?

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Speaker 3: What are you doing with the soy sauce?

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Speaker 1: It's so salty you only need a little bit, right,

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Speaker 1: Are y'all going for the low sodium soy sauce or

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Speaker 1: regular soy sauce?

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Speaker 2: I'm very confused by this. And then another.

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Speaker 3: Person said, for breeze, what's happening?

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Speaker 1: Y'all know that for breeze isn't a disinfectant, right, It

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Speaker 1: just makes the air smell good?

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Speaker 3: Do you have stinky roommates?

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Speaker 1: And because y'all are going to be at home, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna say it's that and that y'all didn't think it

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Speaker 1: was disinfectant.

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Speaker 3: Some of y'all also said all the struggle foods were missing,

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Speaker 3: frozen pizza, instant noodles, Kraft mac and cheese. If you

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Speaker 3: bind a deluxe box, that big blue box, that's not Struggle.

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Speaker 3: I just want to point that out. I'm TT and

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Speaker 3: I'm Zachiah and from Spotify.

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Speaker 4: This is Dope Labs.

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Speaker 3: All right. So those first few weeks of the pandemic,

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Speaker 3: that felt crazy to see all that stuff missing from

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Speaker 3: the grocery store. I was shot, But many weeks on

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Speaker 3: down the road, the grocery store still wasn't fully stopped.

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Speaker 3: There was like no meat, and I remember people saying, Oh,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna have a meat shortage. But then I was

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Speaker 3: seeing on the news that people were throwing away chicken

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Speaker 3: wings because there was no acc tournament. I don't know

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Speaker 3: how real that was. I just was seeing all this

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Speaker 3: conflicting messaging, like people were saying there's no food in

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Speaker 3: these areas. But then I saw people duffing potatoes in Idaho.

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Speaker 3: I didn't understand how that worked.

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Speaker 1: All right, most of us are completely in the dark

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Speaker 1: about where this food comes from and how there could

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Speaker 1: be a shortage. When in America, that's one of the

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Speaker 1: things that folks are always saying, like, oh, we have

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Speaker 1: so much food waste. We have so much food waste,

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Speaker 1: so much food that we're wasting it.

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Speaker 3: And that brings us to today's topic. We're going to

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Speaker 3: talk all about food systems.

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Speaker 1: Let's jump into the recitation. So what do we know?

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Speaker 1: I know that there is huge infrastructure put in place

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Speaker 1: to make sure that folks can get to food, But

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Speaker 1: I feel like I don't know much more. We said

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Speaker 1: food systems, What does that actually mean?

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Speaker 4: Is a kid? You know?

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Speaker 3: I mean when I think about food systems, I think

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Speaker 3: about like the regulation of food. But I don't know

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Speaker 3: who is the food system president? Like who's in charge

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Speaker 3: of making sure that there's bacon at your a grocery store?

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Speaker 3: Who's responsible for that?

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Speaker 2: Is the government in charge?

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: We've got a lot of questions. So what do we

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Speaker 2: want to know?

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Speaker 3: I want to know, first of all, what is a

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Speaker 3: food system. I'm interested in how our food systems and

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Speaker 3: their ability to get us different types of food affects

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Speaker 3: like your ability to have a nutritious meal. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: who's able to access nutritious meals, especially during a pandemic

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Speaker 3: when we're experiencing shortages.

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Speaker 1: What type of government assistance is available for people that

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Speaker 1: are struggling with food insecurity during the pandemic, and what

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Speaker 1: exactly is food insecurity? Who falls into that category. I'm

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Speaker 1: also interested when the food was missing, that felt scary, Right,

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Speaker 1: that's a weakness of our food system. But there were

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Speaker 1: some things that I felt like we always saw and

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Speaker 1: those are some strengths.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know what's driving those things. What makes

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Speaker 3: some things disappear quicker than others.

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Speaker 1: How are farmers impacted by the pandemic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let's get to the bottom of this and

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Speaker 3: jump into the dissection.

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Speaker 1: Our guest for today's lab is doctor Marie Spiker.

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Speaker 8: My name is Marie Spiker. I am a registered dietitian

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Speaker 8: and I'm an assistant professor at the University of Washington

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Speaker 8: School of Public Health.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Spiker studies the connections between food systems, nutrition, and

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Speaker 3: public health, and we wanted her help understanding how the

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Speaker 3: food we eat gets from the farm onto our plate.

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Speaker 8: When we talk about the food system, the big picture side,

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Speaker 8: it's everything from farm to fork to flush.

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Speaker 1: Farm to fork to flush. Let's break that down. Let's

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Speaker 1: start with the farm.

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Speaker 3: So when we think about how food is produced, you know, plants, animals,

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Speaker 3: marine environments, all of that is part of that farm part.

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Speaker 1: And then after the food is produced, you have to

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Speaker 1: distribute it. It has to get to the stores for

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Speaker 1: us to purchase it, so it has to be sorted, clean, packaged,

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Speaker 1: and then shipped.

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Speaker 3: And we really have to consider what's going on in

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Speaker 3: the places where we are interacting with food, so food environments.

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Speaker 3: This could be cafeterias, grocery stores, farmers markets, all kinds

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Speaker 3: of places.

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Speaker 1: Depending on those food environments, it dictates our food choices.

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Speaker 3: You also have to ask is the food you want available,

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Speaker 3: Even if it's available, is it affordable? All that leads

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Speaker 3: us to the fork.

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Speaker 8: And then we get to the consumption part of the

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Speaker 8: food system, where we eating food, and there's all these

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Speaker 8: considerations around our own knowledge, our preferences, our cultural norms

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Speaker 8: and values, and how food actually interacts with our individual biology.

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Speaker 2: Finally, there's the flush.

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Speaker 3: Flush refers to the ways that human waste products can

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Speaker 3: be recycled back into the environment, as well as the

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Speaker 3: ways we waste food throughout the supply chain, whether that's

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Speaker 3: at the farm level or just things we dispose of

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Speaker 3: in our own households as consumers.

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Speaker 1: And the EPA put out an estimate for twenty ten

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Speaker 1: that said that thirty one percent of the food supply

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Speaker 1: was lost to waste. Doctor Spiker says, about a quarter

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Speaker 1: of our global population has agriculture livelihoods, so they work

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Speaker 1: in industries that provide food. So that's about a quarter

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Speaker 1: of people on Earth that have a hand in producing

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Speaker 1: the food that we eat.

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Speaker 8: And you can also think of all the workers in between,

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Speaker 8: so you know, from the person who might do marketing

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Speaker 8: at a food company to the person who's delivering the

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Speaker 8: food to your doorstep.

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Speaker 3: I was looking at some stats and it was saying

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Speaker 3: that farmers account for one percent of the population in

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Speaker 3: the United States, and almost twenty eight percent of the

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Speaker 3: farmers are between the ages of fifty five to sixty four.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if that's representative of the population. Are

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Speaker 3: young folks getting into farming?

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Speaker 2: I have no idea.

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Speaker 3: It's easy to think about food shortages, especially on the

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Speaker 3: heels of this pandemic, and this prompted us to really

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Speaker 3: learn more about the food supply chains in the United

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Speaker 3: States and how COVID nineteen specifically has affected our supply chains.

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Speaker 1: You know we didn't talk about was the flower Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's right. Everybody was trying to make bread. Everybody was

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Speaker 1: trying to do sour though, and I just stumbled upon

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Speaker 1: bread TikTok where they're making bread on TikTok and showing

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Speaker 1: how they do it.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot of work. I don't think I'll be

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Speaker 2: doing that.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm here for the whole loaf. Many of us

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Speaker 3: had this experience together. But we also know that pre

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Speaker 3: COVID there are many people in this country who don't

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Speaker 3: have enough food, and at the same time, we had

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Speaker 3: incredible food waste. And I think it makes you ask

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Speaker 3: this question of like, how do these two things exist together?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense. How can you have one and

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Speaker 1: the other happening at the exact same time.

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Speaker 3: And so I think we want to know what causes

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Speaker 3: these shortages and surpluses.

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Speaker 8: So if we want to take like the thirty thousand

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Speaker 8: foot view of the US food system, the big picture

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Speaker 8: is that we have the privilege of a very safe

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Speaker 8: and abundant food supplying overall, and that may not be

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Speaker 8: the case when food is flying off the shelves due

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Speaker 8: to panic buying related to the pandemic or natural disasters.

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Speaker 8: And that's also not the case for many families who

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Speaker 8: are under resourced or who live in underserved communities. But

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Speaker 8: by and large, our food supply in the US is

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Speaker 8: one that really benefits from efficiency and from economies of scale.

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Speaker 3: Economy of scale is based on this understanding that there

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Speaker 3: are certain fixed costs related to production. That means the

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Speaker 3: price of certain things required for production don't change no

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Speaker 3: matter how much you make. So for example, this can

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Speaker 3: be labor, equipment, and even rent for land.

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Speaker 1: Other costs vary like seed, fertilizer, and chemicals, and the

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Speaker 1: price can change depending on the market.

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Speaker 3: So I'm farmer Zakia and I'm growing carrots. The machinery

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Speaker 3: I need to till the land, the taxes on my property,

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Speaker 3: the machinery I need to sort carrots. The price of

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Speaker 3: those things don't change. Those are fixed costs that I

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Speaker 3: have to consider when I'm determining how much it costs

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Speaker 3: for each carrot.

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Speaker 1: But if Zakiyah increases the number of carrots that she produces,

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Speaker 1: she can easily lower her total cost per unit, allowing

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Speaker 1: her to increase profits and making the total cost for

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Speaker 1: the product lower.

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Speaker 3: So let's just do a quick example. If it's one

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars, is my total fixed costs? If I produce

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Speaker 3: a thousand carrots, that's a dollar carrot. But if I

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Speaker 3: produce five thousand carrots, my fixed cost per carrot goes

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Speaker 3: down to twenty cent per care.

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Speaker 1: So this economy of scale allows us to produce a

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Speaker 1: lot and at a less expensive price, and that means

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Speaker 1: that Americans have access to less expensive food.

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Speaker 8: So in the US we're actually one of the few countries.

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Speaker 8: We're on average, we spend less than ten percent of

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Speaker 8: our household income on food, and there are countries, by contrasts,

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Speaker 8: where people might spend upwards of forty or fifty percent

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Speaker 8: of their income on food.

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Speaker 3: But more food at a lower cost brings us to

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Speaker 3: another consideration, and that's nutrition. Just because some food is

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Speaker 3: affordable doesn't mean it's the kind of food we need

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Speaker 3: to stay healthy.

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Speaker 8: When of the drawbacks of our food system is that

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Speaker 8: while we are efficient food producers, the foods we produce

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Speaker 8: don't necessarily align with our nutritional goals.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if y'all remember, but the key I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you remember because we're of the same age group.

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Speaker 1: As soon as I start thinking of nutrition goals and

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Speaker 1: what I should be eaten, I think of the food pyramid.

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, I remember the food pyramid. The whole base

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Speaker 3: was like wheat, grains and bread.

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Speaker 1: I cannot They're like everybody needs to eat a ten

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Speaker 1: foot hogie yes dinner every night.

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Speaker 3: And you remember the very tip of that triangle. It

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Speaker 3: was like all the stuff you love, oil, vinegar, fats.

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Speaker 3: It was like, is this where the potato chips go?

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Speaker 2: But did you.

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Speaker 1: Know that the food pyramid is no longer Like it's wrong,

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Speaker 1: Like we're not supposed to go buy it anymore.

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Speaker 3: What do you mean is wrong? I'm still building my

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Speaker 3: meals based on that food pyramid.

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Speaker 1: That food pyramid was canceled back in two thousand and five.

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Speaker 1: So the original food pyramid that we all know it

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Speaker 1: started in nineteen ninety two. Then by two thousand and

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Speaker 1: five they said, okay, this isn't right, so they changed it.

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Speaker 1: So then the USDA in twenty eleven came up with

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Speaker 1: this thing called my plate, and the vegetables and grains

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Speaker 1: take up the largest sections on the plate.

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Speaker 3: So that's a lot of fruits and vegetables, and doctor

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Speaker 3: Spiker says the United States isn't currently producing enough for

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Speaker 3: everyone to get the recommended amount all.

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Speaker 8: The fruits and vegetables that we have in the US.

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Speaker 8: When you combine what we grow and what we import,

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Speaker 8: it averages out to about a cup and a half

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Speaker 8: per person per day, which falls short of the recommendation,

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Speaker 8: which is around two and a half cups per person

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Speaker 8: per day. So if everyone in America decided that's starting tomorrow,

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Speaker 8: we're all gonna do our five a day fruits and vegetables,

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Speaker 8: we wouldn't actually have enough fruits and vegetables in the

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Speaker 8: food supply to support that.

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Speaker 3: I'm not trying to cause a panic, but I also

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Speaker 3: don't want to downplay this. I mean, what are we

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Speaker 3: supposed to do? Take time?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like Monday and Wednesday and Friday, the fruits and

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Speaker 1: vegetables are for me, and then Tuesdays and Thursdays and Saturdays,

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Speaker 1: you got them. I guess we can't all be healthy

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Speaker 1: at once.

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Speaker 3: So how can we get enough fruits and vegetables here

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Speaker 3: to meet our nutritional goals? In the US.

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Speaker 8: If we wanted to close that fruit and veggie gap,

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Speaker 8: and we wanted to do it through domestic production, we

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Speaker 8: we actually need to devote another thirteen million acre to

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Speaker 8: fruit and vegetable production, which is easier said than done,

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Speaker 8: because not all of our land is suitable for growing

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Speaker 8: horticultural crops.

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Speaker 3: How big is an acre, Well, one acre is forty

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Speaker 3: three thousand, five hundred and sixty square feet, and that

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Speaker 3: means nothing to me. Football field with his end zones

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Speaker 3: is about one point three acres, So we're basically talking

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Speaker 3: about ten million football fields of fruits and veggies.

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Speaker 1: Where are we going to get thirteen million acres? That's

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Speaker 1: almost the size of West Virginia.

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Speaker 3: And even if we capture that much land for fruits

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Speaker 3: and vegetables, we still got to space it out. We

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Speaker 3: don't want one massive farm in West Virginia. And that's

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Speaker 3: for a few reasons.

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Speaker 1: Why do we see so much of some foods but

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Speaker 1: not of others? Doctor Spiker explains that this is due

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Speaker 1: to consolidation, which is another drawback of our safe, abundant

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Speaker 1: food system.

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Speaker 8: So a really good example of this is the way

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Speaker 8: we've consolidated meat packing plants. So in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 8: the top four company with the meatpacking plants for beef

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Speaker 8: controlled about a quarter of the overall market share, and

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Speaker 8: today the top four companies control over eighty percent of

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Speaker 8: the market share. We also have dramatically fewer meat packing

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Speaker 8: plants than ever before, and so any given farmer or

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Speaker 8: rancher has fewer options about where they can sell their product.

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Speaker 8: And this kind of consolidation creates a supply chain vulnerability.

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Speaker 3: That's a monopoly. They're talking about Time Warner, Cable and

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Speaker 3: all these other people. He's talking about. TikTok. You need

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Speaker 3: to figure out what's going on with the beef. Ye'ah

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Speaker 3: worried about the wrong folks. So this means we have

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Speaker 3: big farms that are producing crops more efficiently and giving

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Speaker 3: us this abundant food supply. But what happens to those

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Speaker 3: systems in the wake of a pandemic.

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Speaker 8: So on one side of the coin, when the system

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Speaker 8: is working as intended, we have this abundance of affordable

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Speaker 8: meat coming through. But on the other side of the coin,

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Speaker 8: that same system can actually be quite easily streamed in

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Speaker 8: the face of even slight changes in the workforce or

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Speaker 8: economics incentives or something else. And the pandemic, of course,

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Speaker 8: introduced not just slight changes, but major changes.

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Speaker 1: Even when a big storm is coming, you know how

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Speaker 1: everybody rushes to the store and buys up all the

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Speaker 1: bread and milk and eggs. I don't know what they're

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Speaker 1: doing just making French toast. I think that's the only

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Speaker 1: thing you can make with bread, milk, and eggs.

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Speaker 3: But I guess that makes me wonder, like what can

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Speaker 3: we do as consumers to alleviate some of that burden.

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Speaker 8: Well, the challenge is like there's so much interplay between

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Speaker 8: the supply and demand, and so when I talk to farmers,

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Speaker 8: they say, we would love to grow more fruits and vegetables,

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Speaker 8: but the market is not there. And so you can't

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Speaker 8: underestimate the power that we have as consumers. And when

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Speaker 8: there is something that we want a certain food or

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Speaker 8: a way that it's produced, the food system has the

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Speaker 8: way of responding to that. It's actually quite responsive.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely every time a new food trend pops up, it's

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Speaker 1: all over the place in every grocery store. Yes, when

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Speaker 1: celery juice became the thing that everybody wanted to have

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Speaker 1: a glass of celery juice every day, first of all,

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Speaker 1: it's nasty. You're not gonna convince me otherwise. I know

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Speaker 1: it's nasty. I can see y'all choking that stuff down.

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Speaker 1: But there was a lot more celery in the grocery stores.

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Speaker 1: But I also felt like I saw a different effect

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Speaker 1: with like kale and collar greens. First of all, that

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Speaker 1: used to be like forty nine to fifty pound. Now

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Speaker 1: I want to get a bunch of kale, it's two

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Speaker 1: ninety nine, and I'm like, you know, it's gonna cook

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Speaker 1: down to half a cup.

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Speaker 3: That's one servant.

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Speaker 1: That's so true. That stuff never and doesn't keep its

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Speaker 1: same size. Same thing with all the different types of milk,

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Speaker 1: almond milk, oat milk, hemp milk.

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Speaker 2: All these different types of milk.

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Speaker 1: Everybody is ditching the cows milk and going over to

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Speaker 1: these alternative milks, and so now I see them everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and so that's so interesting though, right when we consider

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Speaker 1: this sponsor food market, it still feels like it's responsible

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Speaker 1: in some ways, but it's got some cogs, some some

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Speaker 1: slow places in other areas. Right when the pandemic first hit,

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Speaker 1: I was looking for any type of can't meet. Now,

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Speaker 1: normally you won't catch a girl. I mean, I'll go

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Speaker 1: with the you know, salmon and stuff like that. But

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Speaker 1: I was like, I guess I better get these cans

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Speaker 1: of corn, beef hash. I don't know what's going to happen.

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Speaker 1: And when you think about it, how can there be

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Speaker 1: food waste and food shortages at the same time. Is

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Speaker 1: all of this because of the pandemic too.

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Speaker 8: You might have seen headlines about dairy farmer's jumping milk.

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Speaker 8: So if we want to unpack this and look at

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Speaker 8: what's going on, So when the pandemic started, we really

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Speaker 8: radically changed where we're consuming food, so less in restaurants

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Speaker 8: and then more at home. And a lot of the

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Speaker 8: dairy that's in the food system actually gets to us

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Speaker 8: through restaurants.

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Speaker 1: So the demand for dairy might have stayed the same

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Speaker 1: throughout the pandemic, but now it's being funneled primarily to

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Speaker 1: grocery stores instead of restaurants.

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Speaker 8: And so what happened is we've got dairy farmers who

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Speaker 8: found themselves with the same amount of milk that they

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Speaker 8: need to sell because the cows are producing milk, but

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Speaker 8: fewer companies and supply chain stakeholders were able to accept it.

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Speaker 8: So the milk is being produced, but there just wasn't

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Speaker 8: anywhere for it to go in the supply chain.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of changes that have to happen just

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Speaker 1: for people to buy a gallon of milk. Even milk

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Speaker 1: cartons are produced by a separate company somebody's got to

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Speaker 1: supply those.

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Speaker 3: The food system is so much more than just the

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Speaker 3: food itself. These wrappers, containers, dividers.

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Speaker 1: They're all being made by a separate business. And once

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Speaker 1: the demand goes down and they can't put out as

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Speaker 1: much product, then all of these businesses, even the people

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Speaker 1: who are putting it on the trucks and the trucks

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Speaker 1: that take it to the store for you to purchase,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine that they're feeling it as well.

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Speaker 8: There are so many people involved, and that transition just

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Speaker 8: can't take place overnight.

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Speaker 3: We're going to take a but first we want you

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Speaker 3: to confess now that you know how responsive the food

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Speaker 3: market is. What have you helped force into our grocery stores.

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Speaker 3: If you're listening on Spotify, take the poll below to

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Speaker 3: let us know what food trend bandwagons you jumped on.

445
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 3: And then we're going to talk more about how the

446
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,480
Speaker 3: pandemic has affected our food systems and food insecurity for

447
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 3: so many Americans. When we come back.

448
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: We're back now that we've learned all about food systems

449
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 1: and some of the issues with food supply chains in

450
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 1: the United States, we want to know what's the state

451
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,400
Speaker 1: of food insecurity. With so many people losing their jobs,

452
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 1: how has the pandemic magnified this insecurity or loss.

453
00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 8: So in twenty nineteen, before the pandemic, about eleven or

454
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 8: twelve percent of families in the US for food and

455
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 8: secure during at least part of the year.

456
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 2: That's a lot of people.

457
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 1: The number of households in the United States is about

458
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty eight million, and that means about

459
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 1: eleven to twelve percent is about fourteen million households.

460
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 3: And when you consider there's about not two point six

461
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 3: people in each household, that's thirty six million people. More

462
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,719
Speaker 3: than thirty six million. We asked doctor Spiker what it

463
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 3: meant to be food insecure? How is it measured?

464
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 8: And we measure this by asking families about whether they

465
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 8: have enough food. So, for example, we might ask in

466
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 8: the past month, have you eaten less food than you

467
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 8: felt that you should because there wasn't enough money for food?

468
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 8: Or did you find, you know, anyone in your family

469
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 8: find themselves skipping meals or eating meals that weren't balanced

470
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 8: again because there wasn't money for food.

471
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 3: And then how has COVID changed the levels of food

472
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 3: and security?

473
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 8: It's really unprecedented rates. So the nationwide data from April

474
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 8: estimated that about thirty five percent of households, so at

475
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,360
Speaker 8: least one child we're experiencing food in security in April,

476
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 8: so that's just a substantial increase, really unprecedented.

477
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: That's a huge jump. That's almost three times the twenty

478
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: nineteen levels. This makes me think about the unemployment rate

479
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 1: that jump from three point five percent in February of

480
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 1: twenty twenty to fourteen point seven percent in April of

481
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: twenty twenty. If people aren't getting paychecks, how exactly are

482
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 1: they supposed to put food on the table. We talked

483
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: about this in Lab twenty nine The Roof is on Fire,

484
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 1: so make sure you check out that episode two if

485
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 1: you haven't already.

486
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 3: That is a really good point to tie in TT

487
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 3: and we have to consider not just what's happened in

488
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,479
Speaker 3: the pandemic, but also the low income families who were

489
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 3: already struggling pre COVID. Their rate of food and security

490
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 3: is even higher.

491
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 8: There was a survey fielded exclusively among low income households,

492
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 8: and that survey found that almost half of them were

493
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 8: food insecure, so about forty four percent. So when we

494
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 8: talk about the pandemic sascerbating rates of food and security.

495
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 8: It has less to do with disruptions in the supply chain,

496
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 8: whether the shelves are empty or not, and more to

497
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 8: deal with the overall economic impacts that families are feeling

498
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 8: as a result of job loss and other disruptions.

499
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 1: For real, the system, it's the system, the system, the system.

500
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if I sound crazy like it's the man,

501
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 1: it's the man's fault. But for real, it always comes

502
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 1: back to systemic structural barriers. And this is why it's

503
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: so important to think about food through the system's lens.

504
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 3: And like we said earlier this season, we know COVID

505
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 3: nineteen disproportionately affects black and brown communities, so they're more

506
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 3: likely to work in at risk industries like service or

507
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: have underlying conditions. You layer those barriers on top of

508
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 3: food and the food and security perfect storm.

509
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 8: We know that the disparities that we see in nutritional

510
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 8: outcomes are due to deep structural inequities, including poverty, including

511
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 8: systemic racism. So we know that to be the case,

512
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 8: but finding a path forward is quite challenging because we

513
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 8: came into it saying I want to improve nutrition, and

514
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 8: now suddenly it's like the task is now. We need

515
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 8: to fix our deep seated structural inequities.

516
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: This is a huge issue. First things. First, food is

517
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: a basic need for survival. When we think about people

518
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: just trying to survive on this planet, access to food

519
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 1: is the first thing that they need. Beyond that, it's

520
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: so important for health and development. People are already experiencing

521
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: high levels of stress working from home, dealing with kids

522
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: at home, and we talk a lot about that in

523
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: the last Lab Life Avalanche. So check that out, and

524
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people can't even access the food they

525
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,479
Speaker 1: need to support all of these higher level needs.

526
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 3: So let's just talk about families with kids. So for

527
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 3: kids in low income families, often they're getting about two

528
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 3: of their three major meals at school right and without

529
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 3: that support, school's not in session. What impact does this

530
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 3: have on their development?

531
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 8: You're totally right that good nutrition is so essential for

532
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 8: children's development. It's essential for their physical development, it's important

533
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 8: for their cognitive development. So are they getting all the

534
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 8: micro nutrients they need and all the fatty acids for

535
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 8: their brains to really be working optimally, And it's also

536
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 8: important for social development. Food insecurity it's about the quantity

537
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 8: of food. Does your household have enough? But it's also

538
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 8: about the anxiety related to food, and that's something that

539
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 8: a lot of people can relate to. You know, how

540
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 8: does that feeling of anxiety around am I going to

541
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 8: have enough food? Or is it the food that I want?

542
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 8: Or is it food that I can acquire with dignity?

543
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 8: Those things are so powerful.

544
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 3: This makes me think about food banks. You know a

545
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 3: lot of these food banks and goods all the time,

546
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,479
Speaker 3: which is great, can goods versus nothing is great? But

547
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 3: also they're high in sodium. You know, there's all these

548
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 3: other considerations. What about perishables, lots of preservatives. I think

549
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 3: the other thing that I've noticed because I wanted to

550
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 3: help out, there's a great organization in our area called

551
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 3: Martha's Table. But there's like certain hours where you can

552
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 3: get food or drop food off. And it just makes

553
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 3: me think, like, what if you're not available during that time?

554
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 3: What if you're working and there's lines at these food banks?

555
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's so much demand, Like so you have

556
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: to give probably your whole day to get to a

557
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: food bank, and then they still may not be able

558
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: to help you. It's such a crazy time and thinking

559
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: about all this stuff. It just really gives you a

560
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 1: perspective on all the levels of insecurity that are being

561
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: activated right now.

562
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 3: It just ties right back to that episode on Burnout,

563
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 3: right this constant insecurity and worry about what will you have?

564
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 3: What will you do? And a lot of times people

565
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 3: think burnout is about something that's more luxurious, like oh,

566
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 3: I'm tired of typing, but it can be I'm tired

567
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 3: of trying to figure out where my next meal is

568
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 3: going to come from or how I'm going to feed

569
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 3: my child. That can weigh on you, and it can

570
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: have physical effects. It's about the basics too, So what

571
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 3: resources are even available for people experiencing food and security today?

572
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 8: We have SNAP, which is our food stamps. There were

573
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 8: like earlier versions of federal benefits to help lift families

574
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 8: out of poverty, give them some money to help close

575
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 8: the gap and get the foods that they need. Even

576
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 8: those early versions of our federal food as systems had

577
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 8: all these restrictions like you could spend this food, but

578
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 8: you couldn't spend it on seasonings, And it was sort

579
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 8: of this idea that we don't want you buying any

580
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 8: luxury purchases with the money that we've given you, as

581
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 8: if people choosing the foods they want with dignity it's

582
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 8: a luxury, when it's not a luxury, that's just basic

583
00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 8: human decency.

584
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: Be able to use the assistance money that they get

585
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: from whatever organization or the government to buy whatever they

586
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: want for themselves and their family.

587
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, nobody should be policing what's in somebody shopping cart.

588
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 3: If I want to buy scallops, that's my business.

589
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: You should be able to do whatever you want to

590
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: with that money, to be able to feed your family

591
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: the way you want to feed your family. It's like,

592
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: just because you get government assistance doesn't mean that you

593
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: need to get poor nutrition.

594
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 3: I think one of the major things I remember about

595
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 3: preparing for the pandemic and food for the pandemic is said,

596
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 3: this is a stressful time. You should always make sure

597
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 3: you don't just get the basics, but also get comfort items. Now,

598
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 3: why would we say this to everybody else and turn

599
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 3: around to look at our most vulnerable groups and say, oh,

600
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 3: everybody gets a comfort item but not you.

601
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: Food is so much more than what we put into

602
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: our bodies. It's about family, It's about culture and community,

603
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: and everyone deserves to have access to those things.

604
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 8: Right, like being able to seek and choose the foods

605
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 8: you want with dignity should be seen as so core.

606
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 8: But that kind of argument from one hundred years ago

607
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 8: about ooh or people using their federal benefits to buy

608
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 8: you know, seasonings, carries over today into oohor people using

609
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 8: their Snap to buy what was it in the headlines

610
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 8: a couple of years ago it was like steak and lobster.

611
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 8: People having all these conversations, should you be able to

612
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 8: buy steak and lobster with Snap? And so it's tough

613
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 8: to move that lever of financial security because we have

614
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 8: a lot of hangups about that that we need as

615
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 8: a country. We really need to do some work to

616
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 8: figure out those hangups about why we have such a

617
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 8: hard time supporting people lifting people out of poverty in

618
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 8: a in a dignified way that really respects them.

619
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 3: That dignity is so crucial to creating a better, more

620
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 3: just food system. There's so much shame when it comes

621
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 3: to food in general, whether it's about having food stamps

622
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: or shaming people for they do or don't eat. I

623
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 3: saw you got shamed recently.

624
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: Yes, oh, my goodness. So I don't drink cow's milk,

625
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: and I have really been missing milk a lot, and

626
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: so I said, okay, let me try and figure out

627
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: some of these milk alternatives, see what they're hitting for.

628
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: So I grabbed some almond milk and it changed everything.

629
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: I love almond milk, and so I posted on my

630
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: Instagram and my Instagram story saying, how you know almond

631
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: milk has changed my life?

632
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: I will put almond milk on everything.

633
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: And then I was getting comments like, but am I

634
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: it's so bad for the environment, Oh my god?

635
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: And I was like shell anyways, like what now? What now?

636
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: What's the problem?

637
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 6: Now?

638
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 3: Is here we go? You can never do enough? Does

639
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 3: it matter that you reduce your carbon foot pride from

640
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: what it takes to raise a cow and to sustain

641
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 3: it to now an almond?

642
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 4: But you did?

643
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 3: You chose the wrong nut?

644
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: Like you should drink oat milk. I'm like, I'm I'm

645
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: sure you will find something wrong with oat milk too.

646
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 3: And sustainability is important to me as a consumer. But

647
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's hard to navigate around avoid this eat

648
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 3: that this is bad for water, this is bad for

649
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 3: co two? How am I supposed to figure it out exactly.

650
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: So we ask doctor Spiker, what can we do as

651
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: consumers to help contribute to a more sustainable food system.

652
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 8: I think an important message for the public is that

653
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 8: we need to reframe the way we think about sustainability

654
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 8: and shift it from an individual frame to a system's frame.

655
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 8: So sustainability shouldn't be something that you buy. It shouldn't

656
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 8: be an issue of you know, I'm a consumer with

657
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 8: a lot of formal education and money, and I'm going

658
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 8: to seek out the products that are label in a

659
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 8: branded is sustainable for myself.

660
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 3: And that's a great point. Sustainability shouldn't only be for

661
00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 3: rich people, otherwise it's not sustainable. And the other thing is,

662
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 3: in some cases it's above me, is bigger than the consumer,

663
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 3: is deeper than rep.

664
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 8: One example is, you know, if as a country, if

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00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 8: everyone like dial back their average per capita meat consumption,

666
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 8: I don't think you would see fewer cows. I think

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00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 8: what you would see is the same number of cows

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00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 8: producing the same footprint. And I think you would just

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00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 8: see a dramatically expanded export market. I think they would

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00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 8: just find a market for that elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Because of the relationship between supply and demand. Someone else

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00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: in the world is going to consume that meat.

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00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 8: It's not like there's a direct align between what's on

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00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 8: my plate and what's being produced. Oftentimes it's a lot

675
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 8: more convoluted. And so again, if we go back to okay,

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00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 8: maybe the whole goal with the cows is like we

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00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 8: want to rein in our emissions, then okay, that's opens

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00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 8: up a different kind of conversation about how we do that.

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00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 3: We ask doctor Spiker to break down the relationship between

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00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 3: individual choices and systems share When it comes to sustainability.

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00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 8: There's this really important interplay between the individual level and

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00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 8: the system's level. Systems change doesn't just happen on its own.

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00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 8: We're not going to wake up one day and suddenly

684
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 8: the food system is more sustainable. Systems change usually happens

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00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 8: through some critical mass of pressure that comes from somewhere,

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00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 8: and sometimes that pressure comes from regulatory frameworks. Sometimes that

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00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 8: pressure is a positive pressure because the financial incentives are

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00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 8: lined up in the right way so that the financially

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00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 8: viable thing is also the more sustainable thing.

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Speaker 1: So maybe if enough of us demand more sustainable food products,

691
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: we'll create that market and it'll be a win win

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00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,959
Speaker 1: for producers and consumers. Like the examples we were talking

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00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: about earlier.

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00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 8: As individuals, our choices actually do have a lot of

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00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 8: power in catalyzing systems level change. But I don't want

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00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 8: people to get so wrapped up in thinking about their

697
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 8: individual footprint and their individual choices and should have I

698
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 8: this for that, that we forget about the big picture

699
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 8: of how do we create a system that's more sustainable

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00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 8: for everyone, not just more sustainable for me.

701
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 3: This really feels like wearing masks. Yes, it's more than

702
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: just one person exactly. You got to protect the whole community,

703
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 3: to keep the most vulnerable people safe. And how can

704
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 3: we create systems where everyone has access to nutrition and

705
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 3: health at all times, but especially in times of an emergency.

706
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 8: I think a more powerful question for individuals, it's not

707
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 8: you know which things should I consume A or be,

708
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 8: but it's do I need A or B?

709
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 3: How could I.

710
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 8: Consume less overall? And how can we shift from always

711
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 8: wanting more and more to maybe I just want enough.

712
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 3: That's it for Lab thirty three, but we have so

713
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 3: much more for you to dig into on our website.

714
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 3: Check us out at Dope Labs podcast dot com.

715
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 2: On our website.

716
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: You can find a cheat sheet for today's lab, along

717
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: with a ton of other links and resources in the show.

718
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 3: Notes, and if you want to stay in the note

719
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 3: with Dope Labs, don't forget to sign up for our

720
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 3: newsletter on our site too special.

721
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: Thanks to our guest expert, doctor Marie Spiker.

722
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 3: You can find her on Twitter at Marie Spiker and

723
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 3: even more links to her work in our show notes

724
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: on Dope Labs podcast dot com. Also, we love hearing

725
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 3: from you. What did you think about today's lab? Do

726
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 3: you have ideas for future labs?

727
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: Call us at two zero two five six seven seven

728
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: zero two eight and let us know. You can find

729
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope Labs Podcast, tt

730
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: is on Twitter at dr underscore Tsho, and you can

731
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: find Zakia at z said So follow us on Spotify

732
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: or wherever else you listen to podcasts. Dope Labs is

733
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,399
Speaker 1: produced by Jenny rattlet Mast and Lydia Smith of waver

734
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 1: Runner Studios.

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00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 3: Mixing and sound design are by HANNS. Brown.

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00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura,

737
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: with additional music by Elijah Lex Harvey. Dope Labs is

738
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: a production of Spotify and Mega Ome Media Group, and

739
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: it's executive produced by us T T show Dia and

740
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: Zakiah Wattley. I remember in high school, my fren's teacher

741
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: brought in a huge breed and I'd never seen anything

742
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: like this before I was in high school. I only

743
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 1: had like American cheese up until that point, maybe some Swiss,

744
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: maybe some mild cheddar. She brought in this block of

745
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: cheese and I was just like, that looks that doesn't

746
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: look good. And she had all of these like crackers

747
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and then she cut it open

748
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: and all that cheese started to roll out, and I

749
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: was like, ooh, we we