1 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: I can remember being in college classes and professors talking 2 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: about this new thing and thinking this is just magic. 3 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: I mean, how can this even be real? So back 4 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen eighties, Mitch Morrissey was working with 5 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: DNA before anybody even really understood it, he was already 6 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: using it to solve crime. He was the DA in 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: Denver County. He prosecuted now, I want y'all to hear 8 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: these numbers, six thousand felony cases and about eighteen hundred misdemeanors. 9 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: Every year. He was Prosecutor of the Year. He was 10 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: the recipient of the Distinguished Service Award. He received the 11 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: Patriots Award from the Department of Defense. This is an 12 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: accomplished trial lawyer. The only reason he ain't there now 13 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: is because of term limits. In nineteen ninety nine, Mitch 14 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: Morrisey was sworn in as the DA for Boulder County, Colorado, 15 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: to aid in the thirteen month long grand jury investigation 16 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: into the death of John Vanay Ramsay. He continued to 17 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: advise on that until two thousand and three. In two 18 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: thousand and three, he along with the Denver Crime Lab 19 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: director Greg Lebarge. Eighty one charges have come from that development. 20 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: Of the Cold Case Project, and they have gone as 21 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: far back as nineteen eighty. He was also a big 22 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: key supporter of Katie's Law that says convicted felons will 23 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: submit their DNA. He wrote a book, and you'll know 24 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: how I preach all the time, the history of crime 25 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: will tell the history of our country. It'll tell the 26 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: history of your town, your state, your city. His book, 27 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: Denver DA's Office, A History of Crime in the Mile 28 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: High City. He goes from eighteen sixty nine to twenty 29 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: twenty one, and he starts with an event where he says, 30 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: and I quote, hangings were popular public events, y'all. I 31 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: am so happy to introduce y'all to the genius that 32 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: is joining us tonight. Mitch Morrissey. 33 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate being on 34 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 2: your podcast. 35 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: Well, this is going to be a tremendous evening for everybody, 36 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 1: because when you start talking in your book and you're 37 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: telling of this hanging event that was in front of 38 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: three thousand people, you say there were one hundred vigilantes. 39 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: True crime has always been in public entertainment. 40 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely true. I mean, when you think about it, 41 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 2: justice was swift, certainly here in Denver when we were 42 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: talking about the frontier. So usually somebody would commit a murder, 43 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: they would have a trial. Now, sometimes there were some 44 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 2: vigilantes that would go down to the jail and get 45 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: them out, and they wouldn't have a trial, and then 46 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: they usually would hang them or lynch them from the 47 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 2: nearest tree. But it was almost that quick. In some 48 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: of the early cases in Denver, there really was no 49 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: place to put them until the state penitentiary was open, 50 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: so they would get their trial for a murder. Usually 51 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: then they would be convicted within a day of the 52 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: homicide or the next day. There wasn't much of an appeal, 53 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: and oftentimes the jury were citizen jurors and it was 54 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: kind of before there were elected prosecutors. And then they 55 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: would usually hang them either in a place where they 56 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: could draw a lot of people or the place where 57 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: the murder took place, which I thought was interesting to 58 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: actually take the person back to where the murder occurred 59 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: and hang them there if there was a tree. Now, 60 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: I don't know if your audience ever been to Denver, 61 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: but we don't have a lot of natural trees in Denver. 62 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: We're on the plains, and so the about the only 63 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: trees were these old cottonwood trees. It would grow along 64 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 2: the Platte River the Cherry Creek, and those would usually 65 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: be the place where they would take somebody and hang them. 66 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: If they were going to use a tree to do it, 67 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: they would draw a big crowd and if there was 68 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: enough notice, everybody in the territory would show up and 69 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: it would be kind of like almost like a picnic 70 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 2: or a fair county fair type thing, and the main 71 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 2: attraction was the hanging that was going to happen that afternoon. 72 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: It was the exact same way in Georgia. I worked 73 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: at Cromsain seven years after the event. That was the 74 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: last mass luncheon in Georgia. And the reason there wasn't 75 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: more evidence there is because people came and took souvenirs. 76 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: They took shellcasings, they took rope, they took clothing off 77 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: the victims, they took jewelry. It's nothing new. You know 78 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: another thing in your book that I found amazing. I 79 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: used to teach college and sometimes I would say, there 80 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: are no new crimes. And sometimes they would try to say, well, 81 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,559 Speaker 1: what about a dry by shooting? And I would say, well, 82 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: there's evidence that Native Americans on horseback would fire eras 83 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: on fire into houses. 84 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: That's a dry by shooting. 85 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: It's nothing new, right, And sometimes they would try to 86 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: stump me. But again there was always a corresponding historical 87 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: reference to the same thing. And when you talk about 88 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: Cheap John in your book from eighteen sixty nine, what 89 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: was fascinating to me is they made a point for 90 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: everybody to know not only was he a thief, but 91 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: he was a pimp. And I would have students that 92 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: didn't think pimps came into play until the seventies. 93 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: In Denver, and it's in the book, we had a 94 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: large group of French prostitutes and French men that lived 95 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: off of those prostitutes. And actually at the turn of 96 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: the last century we had a serial murderer who was 97 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: going in and killing women in the brothels that we had. 98 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 2: They would have small rooms that were right on the street, 99 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: and you know, we had three or four of them 100 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: that were murdered by the same individual. They believed. Now, 101 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: of course, they didn't have DNA and the kind of 102 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: things that we have that tie cerial rapists together. But 103 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 2: they all were strangulations. They all occurred on the same street, 104 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 2: Market Street. They all occurred to the same type of victim, 105 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: and then they at one point brought in a clairvoyant 106 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: to try to figure out out who was responsible for 107 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 2: these murders, and she ended up being strangled to death. 108 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,559 Speaker 2: And that's in the book. So you know, the book 109 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: has a lot of history in it. It has some 110 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 2: interactions with Native Americans, some of the district attorneys that 111 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: I wrote about. Each chapter is a different district attorney 112 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: served in the Civil War. So we go back quite 113 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 2: a way. 114 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: He's got Doc Holliday at Masterson, AJH. Holmes, Bundy, y'all 115 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: just get it and get ready because you're not going 116 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: to want to put it down, I promise you. 117 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: And then we have some celebrities in there like Bob 118 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: Dylan who was here and Kareem Abdul Jabbar got in 119 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 2: trouble smoking some marijuana when he was early on in 120 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 2: his career and came through Denver. So it goes from 121 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: you know, right after the Civil War basically all the 122 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: way through to when I served as district attorney, from 123 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 2: I served from two thousand in five to twenty seventeen, 124 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 2: and then it talks about the current district attorney that 125 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: followed me in office. There were a lot of them 126 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: because they usually served very short terms. One of the 127 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: most interesting one was the second. His name was Merrick Rogers. 128 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: Merrick Rogers did just about everything. He was the district attorney, 129 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: He was on our Supreme Court, he was in the legislature. 130 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 2: When they started the law school at the University of Colorado, 131 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: the first law school in the area. He was a 132 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: law professor, just an amazing guy. And at the end 133 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 2: of his life, I think he was ill, and he 134 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 2: was up in Steamboat Springs, Colorado. He went down to 135 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 2: a hardware store and he bought himself about a quarter 136 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: of his stick or half a stick of dynamite, went 137 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 2: down by the river down there with a cigar, lit 138 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 2: the dynamite and blew himself up because I think he 139 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 2: was dying anyway. So, you know, there's biography of everybody 140 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: that served as district attorney, and I put in all 141 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 2: of the different police officers that were killed in the 142 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: line of duty and what happened to the people that 143 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 2: killed them. So really we tried to cover the different 144 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 2: crimes that occurred during the era of each one of 145 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 2: the district attorneys. It's about a three hundred page book, 146 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: but it's it's a good read. 147 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: And you know, it's kind of funny when I hear 148 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: you talk, and you know, you sometimes refer to courtroom ten. 149 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: For me in my background, it would be courtroom eight. 150 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: But again, it's that close knit group of people. It's 151 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: that kind of coming up and learning your way in 152 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: this business. And you had a death penalty case where 153 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: you did not see your children awake for two years. 154 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. It was the murder of a little girl, a 155 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 2: little African American girl who she was killed within a 156 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: a month of John Benay Ramsay, but because of where 157 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 2: she was killed, in the nature of her family, he 158 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 2: didn't get a lot of attention. We used DNA to 159 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: solve it. Within a couple days, we caught a man 160 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: that took her and another six year old out the 161 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: back door of the house, kidnapped them. She ran The 162 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 2: brother of the other girl ran into them, was able 163 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 2: to get the one girl to go away with them, 164 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 2: but because of a promise of some candy, little Ashley 165 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: Gray stayed with a man she referred to his uncle, 166 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 2: John John Morris. He took her down to a loading 167 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 2: dock and brutally raped her. We were able to get 168 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: DNA blood from her pants, from his pants, her blood, 169 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 2: even though he had taken those pants home and had 170 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: his girlfriend wash them. And we spent about two years 171 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: then seeking the death penalty for mister Morris. You know 172 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: you work on those cases night. Well, I didn't work 173 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 2: all nights, but when you have little kids that are 174 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 2: four and six or two and four, you leave before 175 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 2: they're awake, and you get home they're asleep, And it 176 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: was pretty amazing that my wife did everything basically for them. 177 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: I mean I'd see them when they were in their 178 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 2: cribs or when they're in their bed, but you know, 179 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 2: I went to pretty much two solid years without seeing 180 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 2: them awake. We ended up getting a first degree murder conviction, 181 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 2: but it was a strange conviction because it was first 182 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 2: degree murdered felony murder where we had sexual assault on 183 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: a child as the underlying felony. But the jury could 184 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: not agree even though it was a strangulation where he 185 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 2: strangled this little girl to death, they could not agree 186 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: on first degree murder after deliberation, so they decided, hey, 187 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: we convicted him a first degree murder. We don't have 188 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 2: to worry about this other four and you need that 189 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: other form, or you did at the time in Colorado 190 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,359 Speaker 2: in order to needed some mental state for the homicide, 191 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 2: not just the felony, and so we weren't able to 192 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: go forward on the death penalty on it. But you know, 193 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: for your listeners, and I'm not sure in Georgia, but 194 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: here in Colorado they have since gotten rid of the 195 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: death penalty, and the death penalty was extremely rare. So 196 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: when they got rid of it two or three years ago, 197 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 2: we had I think maybe four people on death row, 198 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 2: none of them out of my jurisdiction, but they commuted 199 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 2: their sentences to life without parole and we no longer 200 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: have the death penalty in Colorado. 201 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: So y'all think about two years where you're missing birthdays, anniversaries, 202 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: just general Wednesday night being with your family. And after 203 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: that case that took him away from his family every 204 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: day from dark to dark, he gets a call and 205 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: that call says, we need you in Boulder to help 206 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: take over the grand jury on the job at a 207 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: Ramsey case. 208 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: There was some problems with the District attorney's office up there, 209 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: so they brought in a former chief deputy of mine 210 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 2: who was working in Pennsylvania to run the grand jury. 211 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: So when you say to run it, I actually did 212 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: not run it. By the time I was asked to 213 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 2: be part of the team, Mike Kane had been already 214 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 2: brought in to work exclusively on that case. I was 215 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: coming off this death penalty case. And my boss at 216 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 2: the time was Bill Ritter, who was the DA that 217 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: was term limited before I got elected, and he said, Mitch, 218 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 2: I need you to go up and be part of 219 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: this Ramsey case because nobody knows anything about DNA and 220 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 2: you are the top DNA a guy in the state 221 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: of Colorado or one of the top in the nation. 222 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 2: And so I told him no, I said, I can't 223 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 2: do it, Bill. I just finished that death penalty case 224 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 2: on Morris and that's where I explained that I hadn't 225 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 2: seen my kids awake for two years, and I owed 226 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: them I did not I could not get involved eighteen 227 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: months after the fact, trying to put together again a 228 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: crime that I knew there was DNA, but at the 229 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 2: time it wasn't significant. There was really no issue with it. 230 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: A couple weeks later, Mike Kane knocked on my door, 231 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: and Mike was my first chief deputy in the Denver 232 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 2: DA's office. And when you talked at the beginning about 233 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: somebody having your back, it really was true. With Mike. 234 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 2: He always had my back. He was one of my 235 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: favorite people to work with and to work for. And 236 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: he said, Mitch, I need you. And there were my 237 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: two kids. My wife was out somewhere. Said Mike, look 238 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: at these kids. They need me to be around. And 239 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 2: I reluctantly decided to go there. I went to the 240 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: University of Colorado, so I had a lot of experience 241 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: in Boulder. So the first day I decided that I'd 242 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: go up to the Colorado Bureau of Investigations, which was 243 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: the lab that they were using, and since I was 244 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: the DNA guy, I'd meet with their zerologists DNA woman, 245 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 2: which was somebody that I knew. She had worked in Denver. 246 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: She was very good at what she did. Kathy Dressel 247 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 2: was her name. I met with her. I sat down 248 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: with Kathy and was talking about the DNA and this 249 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 2: little girl's underwear. I knew that there was DNA there 250 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: and there was potential mixture or contamination, and without missing 251 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 2: a beat, and me knowing Kathy for years, she said, 252 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: well what about that other stay Mitch, and I said, Kathy, 253 00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: I've been on this case for less than a day. 254 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 2: I don't know what you're talking about. There's a second 255 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: stain in these panties and she said, oh, yeah, there's 256 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 2: a second stain. And I said, and you haven't tested it. 257 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 2: It's been eighteen months. She said no, the DA told 258 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: me to keep it for the defense and I said, 259 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: it's separate and she said yes, it's a completely separate 260 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: stain from the one I did test. I said, is 261 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 2: it big enough to cut in half? Because you know, 262 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: when you consume a sample, the defense then doesn't have 263 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 2: anything that they can test or retest, and so you 264 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 2: have to be concerned about that, even though we didn't 265 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 2: have anybody in custody or charged. She said, yeah, there's enough. 266 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: So she cut it in half and tested it, and 267 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: lo and behold, we got back those results. There was 268 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: almost a full male profile. It didn't belong to anybody 269 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: that we searched. We had a database all ready built, 270 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: there was enough to put into codis and it didn't 271 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: match anybody in CODIS. So I went from a case 272 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: that supposedly had no DNA issues to the issue in 273 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 2: that case. Is this mystery DNA, and it continues to 274 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 2: be the issue in that case to this day. I 275 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 2: firmly believe it was that DNA and that profile alone 276 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 2: that kept anybody from being charged by the Boulder DA 277 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: for the murder of that little girl. 278 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: Is there any way to do ancestry on the DNA 279 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: profile you have like any. 280 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: Other DNA method? You said, I've been doing DNA since 281 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 2: the late eighties, and that's true. The first case I 282 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 2: did was in nineteen eighty nine in Denver. But every 283 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: method that I know of that's ever been used for 284 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 2: forensic has limitations. And the limitations that we have when 285 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 2: it comes to sequencing is if it's a mixture, and 286 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: it's a mixture of about fifty to fifty, that's a problem. 287 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 2: This remember is blood. The blood is hers. The male 288 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 2: profile is probably saliva. The one thing I can tell 289 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: your listeners it's not sperm, but we know it's mail 290 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: from the testing because she doesn't have a Y chromosome, 291 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: so we know it's a mixture and it's about a 292 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: fifty to fifty mixture. That is a problem when you 293 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: start to sequence DNA because you don't know who's contributing. 294 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 2: What I've spoken to a group up there about what 295 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 2: I thought and think we could do on that case. 296 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 2: But I think they're doing the conservative thing. They're waiting 297 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 2: to see if there's advances. And the one thing I 298 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 2: always tell people about DNA, you don't know what we're 299 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 2: going to be doing in five years. Five years before 300 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 2: the Golden State Killer, I would not have told you 301 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 2: we would have been used using DNA and genealogy to 302 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 2: solve cases. The one thing I do know is this 303 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 2: happened on Christmas. Most people know where they were on Christmas. 304 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 2: There's photographs of them with their families. If this DNA 305 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: was deposited at some other time, most likely somebody's going 306 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 2: to have a pretty good alibi and an awful lot 307 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 2: of witnesses. That is one of the things about when 308 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: that crime took place that I think is interesting. But 309 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 2: the reason no one was ever charged, and if you 310 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: remember correctly, the grand jury wanted to indict the Ramses, 311 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 2: and I'll tell you I really had to sit down 312 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 2: and explain to some people that didn't understand DNA exactly 313 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 2: what the major problem was there. So you may have 314 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: probable cause that somebody did something, but that's not the 315 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 2: standard when you get into trial. When you get into trial, 316 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: you have to to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, 317 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 2: and that is the highest standard in the law of 318 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 2: the United States. Probable cause is one of the lowest standards. 319 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 2: So the grand jury may or may not have gotten 320 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 2: it right finding probable cause. But the one thing I 321 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 2: knew was there was reasonable doubt as long as that 322 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 2: DNA was out there. And I sat down and had 323 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 2: to convince at least five district attorneys that were giving 324 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 2: advice on that case. And then after it was over, 325 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember, but then we sat 326 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,479 Speaker 2: down with the governor of the state of Colorado, who 327 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 2: had to make a decision if he was going to 328 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 2: take the Boulder DA off the case and put a 329 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 2: special prosecutor who would have been our attorney general to 330 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 2: continue the investigation. And for two days we sat down 331 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: and explained everything that we had in the investigation, explained 332 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: why we could not go forward with any suspect at 333 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 2: that time, and he agreed with us, and he did 334 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 2: not appoint the attorney general to be the special prosecutor. 335 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 2: You know, it's one of those tragic cases. It's one 336 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: of those cold cases out there. It gets a lot 337 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 2: of attention for a whole lot of reasons. My hope 338 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: is someday that that DNA will be identified. I'd love 339 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 2: to be part of it because I was part of 340 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: it at the beginning. I was the one that asked 341 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 2: for the testing. I would love to work with the 342 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 2: Boulder Police Department again. You know, they get criticized a 343 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: lot for that case. And I got to tell you 344 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 2: that the individuals that I worked with on that case, now, 345 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 2: they weren't necessarily at the scene. They weren't the first 346 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 2: ones called. You know, I would really like to get 347 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 2: to the end of that mystery. If we can utilize 348 00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 2: this technique in some way and get them answers, I'd 349 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: be real proud about that. 350 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: Well, I got a few more questions. I talked to 351 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: John Ramsey and I asked him specifically about the garage 352 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: and had that been tested for DNA. Whoever tied that 353 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: knot should have left some touch DNA when. 354 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 2: I was involved in the case. There was no There 355 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 2: was no technique that would have allowed you to get 356 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 2: down to the level the few cells that they can 357 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 2: do touch DNA. With touch DNA, you talk about getting 358 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 2: DNA samples sometimes done in a half an hour. Now 359 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 2: that's more expensive, So I would have been done with 360 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 2: the case by the time that they would have sent 361 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 2: different items of clothing, not the garrote itself, but the rope. 362 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: I know that they did ask the body lab to 363 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 2: do additional work on different items, but I was not 364 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: involved in that, and I don't believe I've ever seen 365 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 2: the results of that work. But obviously that work didn't 366 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 2: lead to a solution. 367 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: You as a prosecutor, when you look at a three 368 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: page ransom note with the word attache, you can pretty 369 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: much take Burke out of it. If the FBI says 370 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: they can't rule this person in or out. You know, 371 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: you've got this stage scene, You've got a master bedroom 372 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: that looks like one person slept in the bed because 373 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: the other half is made up. It looks like you've 374 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: got a nine one one call that might have some 375 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: issues to it. You've got somebody that fed the child pineapple. 376 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: They're going up and down these three stories. I mean, 377 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: it's not just a you know, like a mystery. To me, 378 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: it's one of those cases where every single thing that 379 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: could go wrong to aid the killer is what happened. 380 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 2: The cause and mechanism of death was one of the 381 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 2: most compelling things to me. This little girl suffered a 382 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 2: major blof to her head, basically cracked her skull from 383 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,479 Speaker 2: front to back. Didn't break her skin, so it didn't bleed. 384 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 2: Had she bled, we would have known where she got attacked. 385 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 2: We would have known you if as she was moved 386 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 2: through the house, if she was moved where she was moved. 387 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: But we didn't have the luxury of that. But she 388 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: had this massive brain. Anybody goes online, there's probably a 389 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: picture of that injury to her skull, because just about 390 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 2: everything about this case is online. The saddest part of 391 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 2: that case for me was that she then was never 392 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 2: conscious again, so there'd be no reason to tie her up. 393 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 2: There'd be no reason to do these slip knots or 394 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: put anything over her mouth. A piece of duct tape. 395 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: And the one thing I'll tell you, if she'd been conscious, 396 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 2: that binding that she had was so loose and so flimsy, 397 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 2: she would have reached up and tore that duct tape 398 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 2: off of her face. It was one little strip of 399 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 2: duct tape over her mouth. It didn't go around her head. 400 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 2: She would have just torn that duct tape off and 401 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 2: started screaming. But she was never conscious again, and then 402 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 2: through the mechanism death that happens when you have somebody 403 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 2: that suffers a close head injury like that. We all know, 404 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 2: you hit your thumb with a hammer, it's going to 405 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 2: swell up. Well, what happens when you get hit in 406 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: the head like this, Your brain starts to swell up. 407 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 2: And because your skull is so good at protecting your 408 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: brain and it contains your brain, there isn't a lot 409 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 2: of place for your brain to then expand while it's swelling. 410 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 2: And what happens is it goes down your spinal cord 411 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: and eventually all of those things that control the beating 412 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 2: of your heart, your breathing, your lungs, that's all cut 413 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: off by the swelling of the brain. And that's what 414 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: kills you. And that's was happening to this little girl 415 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 2: at the time she was strangled to death. There are 416 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 2: people out there that believe that, you know, she got 417 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 2: those things happened close in time, and they did not. 418 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 2: There were hours between when she was struck in the 419 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 2: head and when she was strangled to death. 420 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: Another thing that I picked up on in this whole thing, 421 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: you've got John Bonnet with the right accent. You've got Garat, 422 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: You've got at Jesha. There's some French influence there. I mean, 423 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: you can't miss it as far as I'm concerned. 424 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 2: There was a little French dog they had, it had 425 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 2: a French name. Uh, there was. Some of those indicators 426 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: were there. But again, you got to put up her 427 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: shut up. When you're a prosecutor and you can sit 428 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 2: there and opine about what you thought and what your 429 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 2: theory is and all of that, but when it comes 430 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: to charging parents have lost a little girl of a 431 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 2: crime like first degree murder, you better have your ducks 432 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 2: in the order and you better be ready to prove 433 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 2: it beyond a reasonable doubt. 434 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: One last question, what do you think about the line 435 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: in the autopsy where it says chronic vaginal injury. Do 436 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: you think she was assaulted by somebody close to her 437 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: or at a school or somewhere over a period of time. 438 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: What do you make of that sentence? 439 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 2: Well, there was clearly vaginal injury to her that occurred 440 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 2: near her death. Now, the word chronic implies that it 441 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 2: had been going on for some time. There were some 442 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:46,719 Speaker 2: indications that she had started wetting the bed again after 443 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 2: being potty trained that she was having problems with that 444 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 2: kind of thing at school where she would have to 445 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 2: have accidents, and you know, there's those are indicators that's 446 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: something of a sexual nature may be occurring with her. So, 447 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 2: I mean, all of those things we knew about, all 448 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 2: of those things we presented to the grand jury. She 449 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 2: may or may not have been. But the one thing 450 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 2: we found was that at the time, most of the 451 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 2: studies around that by experts were being done on live girls, 452 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 2: and there were very few experts that could give us 453 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 2: an opinion on a girl that had died. And so, 454 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 2: you know, and with children, sometimes when you see autops 455 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 2: these things are a little bit different, and you've got 456 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: to look for maybe an expert, for instance, not in 457 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 2: this case, but for in strangulation of a child where 458 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 2: there isn't the common marks that you'd see when a 459 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 2: full grown woman is strangled to death, those kinds of things. 460 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: So when you go at the time, we go looking 461 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 2: for an expert that could tell us if there were 462 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: things about this little girl's anatomy that would indicate that 463 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: she'd been previously sexually assaulted. There was really nobody out 464 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 2: there that could do that. The one thing we couldn't 465 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 2: find was a pathologist that could give us an opinion 466 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 2: on if the vaginal trauma that she had was something 467 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 2: that had been reoccurring. 468 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: Sir, do you think you can explain, you know, to everybody? 469 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: IgG Absolutely, it's the name has changed a couple of times, 470 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 2: and sometimes it was forensic genetic genealogy. Now it's investigative 471 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 2: genetic genealogy, and now some people are referring to it 472 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: as forensic investigative genetic genealogy, but it's all the same. 473 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: And basically what it is is that when the law 474 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: enforcement agency has done their work and they have a 475 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 2: profile and that profile doesn't match anybody in the case, 476 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 2: and they put it into CODIS and it doesn't match 477 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 2: any of the millions and millions of people that are 478 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 2: in the US codis eighteen million people, the case remains 479 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: cold and so the question is what are you going 480 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 2: to do? And what we do is we work with 481 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: law enforcement. We have a great partner here in the 482 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: metropolitan area that actually provides the funding to do our work, 483 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 2: and that is our Metro Denver Crime Stoppers. And basically, 484 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 2: they'll have a reward on a twenty five year old 485 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 2: murder and they've never solved it. They've never paid the 486 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: reward they pay us to solve the case. They pay 487 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 2: us about five thousand dollars a case. We get the 488 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 2: DNA sequenced, which is different than what they do in 489 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 2: the crime lab. Once it's sequenced, then there are two 490 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 2: commercial databases, one called Family Tree DNA and one called 491 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: jedmatch that allow law enforcement to search those databases to 492 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,239 Speaker 2: see if there's anybody in the database that might be 493 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 2: related to the individual that committed this horrendous crime. And 494 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 2: they're brutal rapes, murders, rape murders, those kind of crimes. 495 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 2: The women, women are always the victim of these crimes 496 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: or children. Ninety percent of the cases that we solve 497 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: where DNA plays a role, the victims are women and 498 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: the ten percent that are left about nine point five 499 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 2: nine point eight or kids. So this is a technique, 500 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 2: and DNA is a technique that helps us catch men 501 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 2: that rape and murder the women in our communities. And 502 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 2: that's the same as in Georgia and Colorado and across 503 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 2: the United States. It's really important to do DNA in 504 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 2: cases where it's appropriate. Sequence the DNA, we upload it 505 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 2: and what we get are people. We don't get the 506 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 2: people's DNA. What we get is what they share with 507 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: the person that we're looking for. And we may then 508 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 2: have somebody that is a third cousin. And what we 509 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 2: start to do then with our genealogists, and that's the 510 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 2: genealogy part of it. We start to build out a 511 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 2: family tree from that individual that's in the database that 512 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 2: may be a third cousin, and we go up the 513 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,479 Speaker 2: family tree. We're looking for what's called the most recent 514 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: common ancestor. And when we find that most recent common ancestor, 515 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: and it's usually a couple, maybe great grandparents, great great grandparents, 516 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 2: we start down the family tree looking for the individual 517 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: that was at the location, you know, in the city 518 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: of Denver. We've had two brothers that came back. One 519 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 2: had never been in Colorado and the other had been 520 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 2: in Colorado and actually been in a lot of trouble 521 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 2: in Colorado. So we come down the tree looking for 522 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 2: the individual, an individual that might fit, and when we 523 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: find that individual, we give that name to law enforcement 524 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 2: and they do a full blown investigation. Sometimes they get 525 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: the individual's DNA. They may get it through a court order, 526 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: they may get it through a search warrant. They may 527 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 2: get it through somebody taking trash, you know, taking the 528 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: trash after the person has put it out and it's 529 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 2: been taken to the dump, you know, a trash run, 530 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: that kind of thing. If somebody is a smoker throws 531 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 2: down a cigarette, but their DNA is going to be 532 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: on a cigarette. But so we are looking for the 533 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 2: person's DNA and then once we get that DNA, it 534 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 2: is compared to the DNA from the crime scene through 535 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: the methodology that was done at the crime lab, and 536 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 2: we'll have a hit. And when we get that hit, 537 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 2: the individuals then arrested and charged with whatever the crime 538 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 2: is that we are looking into. These databases will only 539 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 2: let us do violent crimes like rape, murder, some of 540 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 2: those types of crimes. They will not let us do 541 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: genetic genealogy on a theft case or burglary case. They 542 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 2: prohibit that. So it's a limited number of cases, but 543 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 2: it's a great technique. It's been utilized for about the 544 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 2: last five years and hundreds of otherwise unsolved cold cases 545 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: have been solved through investigative genetic genealogy. That's what we 546 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 2: do my companies called United Data Connect. If you have 547 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 2: any law enforcement interested in contacting me, just go to 548 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 2: our website. 549 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: Sir, I appreciate you so much. I appreciate your career. 550 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: I appreciate that you are a third generation lawyer. Your 551 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: whole family has been dedicated to public service, especially your wife. 552 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 1: I mean, taking it own all by herself is a 553 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: tremendous asset to you and the citizens of Colorado. 554 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, my wife is incredible. She raised thirteen million dollars 555 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 2: so we could open a family violence center here in Denver. 556 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: We didn't have one. I was committed to getting this done, 557 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 2: but I could not have done it without her fundraising. 558 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: She was able to raise that thirteen million dollars and 559 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 2: we got the Roseandam Center open just before I was 560 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 2: term limited in the left office. Yeah, she's incredible, you know. 561 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 2: And of course my dad and my grandfather, I owe 562 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 2: a lot to them. I wouldn't have been a trial 563 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 2: lawyer without my father. And my grandfather was the longest 564 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 2: serving US attorney for Colorado. He served under Roosevelt and Truman, 565 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 2: and he had a great career. So yes, thank you 566 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 2: so much for bringing them up. And you know, of course, 567 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 2: my wife was an ally of mine throughout the political campaigns. 568 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 2: But she really played a significant role in helping victims 569 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 2: of domestic violence and their children here in Denver by 570 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 2: getting the Roseannum Center funded and running, and then she 571 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 2: of course served on the board for years. We're still 572 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 2: involved in that center. It's making a huge difference in 573 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 2: our city. 574 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: Well, you've got a solid Zone seven, sir, and again 575 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,760 Speaker 1: I appreciate you, y'all. I'm going to end Zone seven 576 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: the way that I always do with a quote. The 577 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: greatest history book ever written is the one hidden in 578 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: our DNA. Spence, Wales. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is 579 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: Zone seven.